PDA

View Full Version : Timeline from Wendy Doniger's "The Hindus"



Jaskaran Singh
06 February 2014, 04:51 PM
Namaste Forum sangha,
Wondering what your views on this are...
http://oi57.tinypic.com/f1kruv.jpg

isavasya
06 February 2014, 09:22 PM
Namaskar Jaskaran,

There are some contradictions. For example - Kautilya is described as living in a different era than Chandragupta maurya, which is absurd. Different accounts from Jain litreture, Buddhist literature, Hindu (or Veda related) literatures can confirm that Chankya and Chandragupta lived in same era. Also, Mahavira lived earlier than Buddha.

Now talking about revelation of vedas, I think its very hard to argue for any definite time-line, though oral tradition could have originated around 2000BC. The dates in the above figure put Vedas a lot later than what I personally believe. However, I am not so bothered about when exactly they were written/composed. What matters to me what was written/composed.

Aryavartian
07 February 2014, 04:50 AM
Pranam,

At least she acknowledge that Sarasvati dried up! Even then she puts the date of RV to fit the typical AIT chronology.Btw Aryans were no nomads,they had farming and cities/forts.Also,the dates of Upanishads and Mahabharata in her chronology is rather too late.

Avyaydya
07 February 2014, 11:29 AM
Some of the things in there are definitely debatable. AIT is now under attack but when she wrote the book it was still the majority viewpoint among scientists. Especially in archaeology people are known to stubbornly hold on to existing theories. Science is not much different from religion in that respect, people hold on to their views. Even in sciences like physics this is so, or like Max Planck put it: the new ideas will not be embraced before present generations have died. And as science was dominated by westerners this automatically creates a dominance of western views. This will change as more non-westerners take their rightful places.

I do not however believe that Wendy Doniger is purposely trying to create a wrongful picture. She loves Hinduism genuinely and only gives a personal perspective on it from her own background. Hindus reaction is also coloured by their own wounds of being colonized, creating a tendency to overreact and see an attack were none is intended. But Hindus themselves find it hard to be unanimous about any one idea, so maybe it is nice for them to have a common enemy to unite against. A bit like Jews who can not agree on anything except antisemitism.

I think People like Wendy Doniger have a true love for Hinduism, and if she sees some things wrong, or uses western viewpoints she is not aware off, we should forgive her and not make her into a Hindu enemy. That is neither justified nor smart. The real danger comes from those groups that want to convert Hindus to their Christian or Muslim beliefs. So lets not paint friends as enemies. I think a bigger problem is Indian government who does not seem very interested in actively researching India's past.

Wendy Doniger 'On Hinduism' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=how-wI-Gxj4)

satay
07 February 2014, 12:34 PM
Namaste,
Any logic or reason in learning about 'History of Bharata' from Wendy? or is this thread to just create hostility on the forum?

Believer
07 February 2014, 01:27 PM
Namaste Jaskaran,

Thanks for the post.

To me it is not to learn from Wendy or to debate what she publishes with others in the forum, as that has already been extensively done before. What it does bring to the table is an awareness about where the Westerners may get their information from and how should we prepare ourselves to handle situations whereby we run into someone who quotes her and has been fed on a steady diet of her writings about Hinduism. Such information prompts us to do our research and counter any misinformation that people here may have about Hinduism. I hope we can refrain from debating her timeline and her theories and take the post for what it is - a wake up call regarding what we will find ourselves up against out there in the real world. Something to mull over for the newer members!

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
07 February 2014, 01:29 PM
Namaste Forum sangha,
Wondering what your views on this are...


Vannakkam JS. If you search on the name, you will get previous threads and our views. No point gong over some of it again.

Aum Namasivaya

Jaskaran Singh
07 February 2014, 03:08 PM
Namaste,
Any logic or reason in learning about 'History of Bharata' from Wendy? or is this thread to just create hostility on the forum?
This wasn't to create hostility, although I agree that I honestly don't hate Doniger as much as some people here (even though she has an unnatural obsession with sex, even she dislikes some of the misuses of tantra both in bhArat and the west, and I respect her for that). I just found many of the things which she mentions in her timeline to be funny such as using the phrase "shrIvaiShNava-s split into cats and monkeys" to refer to mArjAlanyAyI bhakta-s and markaTanyAyI bhakta-s or stating things which have nothing to do with Hinduism (like about the life of "bhagavAn rajnIsh" or something about "theosophy"), so I wanted to know your opinions. I could care less about the dates themselves, it's some of the statements which I find a bit amusing.

Some of the things in there are definitely debatable. AIT is now under attack but when she wrote the book was still the majority viewpoint among scientists. Especially in archaeology people are known to stubbornly hold on to existing theories. Science is not much different from religion in that respect, people hold on to their views. Even in sciences like physics this is so, or like Max Planck put it: the new ideas will not be embraced before present generations have died. And of science was very dominated by westerners which automatically creates a dominance of western views. This will change as more non-westerners take there rightful places.

I do not however believe that Wendy Doniger is purposely trying to create a wrongful picture. She truly loves Hinduism genuinely and only gives a personal perspective on it from her own background. Hindus reaction is also coloured by their own wounds of being colonized, creating a tendency to overreact and see an attack were none is intended. But Hindus themselves find it hard to be unanimous about any one idea, so maybe it is nice for them to have a common enemy to unite against. A bit like Jews who can not agree on anything either except antisemitism.

I think People like Wendy Doniger have a true love for Hinduism, and if she sees some things wrong, or uses western viewpoints she is not aware off, we should forgive her and not make her into a Hindu enemy. That is neither justified nor smart. The real danger comes from those groups that want to convert Hindus to their Christian or Muslim beliefs. So lets not paint friends as enemies. I think a bigger problem is Indian government who does not seem very interested in actively researching India's past.

Wendy Doniger 'On Hinduism' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=how-wI-Gxj4)
Did she just say what I think she said? "But anyway, I am a sort of a horse." (http://youtu.be/how-wI-Gxj4?t=6m09s) LOL!


Vannakkam JS. If you search on the name, you will get previous threads and our views. No point gong over some of it again.

Aum Namasivaya
praNAm,
I realize that. I mainly just made this thread because I finished reading Doniger's The Hindus book, and while some parts did agitate me, other areas were quite informative. The timeline was actually broken up into pieces at the beginning of each chapter (as types of summary statements, one could say) and was also attached to the ending. To be honest, her worst book was surely not the Hindus; Shiva: The Erotic Ascetic was far, far more offensive. The Hindus wasn't so much offensive as it was fallacious (although many of the mistakes were quite humorous TBH).

satay
12 February 2014, 03:32 AM
Namaste
The book is being pulled out of India.



The petitioners, however, in their plea had claimed that the book was based on "unreliable and unauthentic and one sided sources" and is full of biases, generalizations and pre-conceived notions. "That it has not only used and misused but abused Indian history and religion in an undignified manner. It is a mis-interpretation of Hindu dharma and its glorious past. That the defendant along with the author have selected scattered events of their choice and given them their own interpretation," the petition had stated.


http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Penguin-pulls-out-Wendy-Donigers-book-The-Hindus-from-India/articleshow/30240558.cms

Omkara
12 February 2014, 05:30 AM
Namaste
The book is being pulled out of India.



http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Penguin-pulls-out-Wendy-Donigers-book-The-Hindus-from-India/articleshow/30240558.cms

If anybody is wondering why-

Eastern Mind
12 February 2014, 06:59 AM
Vannakkam: Good news. Too bad they don't pull it off the shelves in America. History is slanted all over. The Amerindian (indigenous peoples here) history is generally written from the white conqueror POV. The atrocities are often ignored completely.

Aum Namasivaya

Anirudh
12 February 2014, 08:28 AM
Namaste HDF,

I think we are giving unnecessary space to this so called freedom of expression. In addition to Omkara's consolidated list, I am adding a link which has dissected the so called freedom of expression (http://vishalagarwal.voiceofdharma.com/articles/thaah/).


@ JS ji,

There are many news portals which has published this and a lot has already been discussed... When we all agree that this kind of freedom expression kill Santana Dharma, unknowingly deliver our own judgement...Then we all will take sides leading to a unhealthy discussion... I have observed that in the past we simply end up defending our views missing the underlying point.


@ Satay ji

Thank you very much....

Sahasranama
12 February 2014, 11:57 AM
I believe in the freedom of speech, but I also believe in the freedom not to publish garbage. A publisher is allowed to have certain standards. Anyone comparing this to the ban of Salman Rushdie's novel has an IQ below their shoe size. There is a difference between a political ban and a publisher or journal deciding that a book or article is below their standards.

Jeffery D. Long
12 February 2014, 08:48 PM
Good piece by Koenraad Elst on this topic:

http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/banning-wendy-donigers-the-hindus/

Jaskaran Singh
12 February 2014, 11:59 PM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that I happened to mention this same text only a couple days before it was banned?

Sudas Paijavana
13 February 2014, 01:21 AM
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that I happened to mention this same text only a couple days before it was banned?

The book was not banned. It was just pulled back by the publisher. It's still available for purchase online in e-book format.

satay
13 February 2014, 10:14 AM
Namaste
Kudos to the group that got it pulled for all its effort. We need to see more of this type of effort and organization.

ShivaFan
14 February 2014, 04:54 PM
Namaste

I never heard of this author before, I am being perfectly honest saying that, and this is coming from someone who often haunts the "Hinduism" section of various book stores that have an "Eastern Religions" theme to them.

So I think the importance of this book, if it were to have any among those who are interested in Hinduism, is over blown perhaps. But as a result of this subject of this author (already forgot how to spell her name, it is sort of an odd name to remember how to spell), and particularly the "banning" of this book which has now actually brought it's name into the public eye for which it would likely not have had otherwise, as a subject on several forums (mostly against the accuracy of the content, but a lot of focus on the recent "ban"), now I came to recognize the name of this author and this book which has, to tell the truth, taken on a life (a second life) of it's own, suddenly appearing all over the internet, in PDF format etc.. I am not supporting this book, I had or have no interest in it.

But it is now getting more attention than ever, and you can download it for free which apparently a lot are doing now and probably the attention to this book is on the rise which never would have happened before, it wouldn't surprise me if the subject of this book becomes a content of a cable History Channel or Discovery Channel next in a couple of years. This "ban" is not a ban, you cannot ban anything in 2014 in today's inter-connected world and such "bans" drive more attention to it.

There is no ban, it has already started to fail, and brought more attention to it. I agree, with Believer, Hindus should nuw better prepare their counter points and truth tests because I think it will be given more attention now than before.

Om Namah Sivaya

Avyaydya
14 February 2014, 07:01 PM
I have very mixed feelings about this. If this is a sign of Hindus growing self-awareness and a movement towards greater political influence to safeguard essential Hindu values I applaud it. That is really necessary, especially as I see how Brahmins are discriminated these days. But i think the means chosen here are wrong. Hinduism is widely known to be a pluralist, tolerant, respectful religion. So why is it now using the kind of means we come to expect from fundamentalist Muslims? How can you claim to be pluralist and tolerant when you can no longer tolerate different views?

Many people seem to overlook that the full title of the book is "The Hindus, an alternative view". So the book does not at all claim to give a final or majority view on Hinduism, far from it. but in present day climate there is no room for a alternative view in the eyes of Hindu fundamentalist, especially if it comes from westerners. So the concept of "Hinduism" is now moving from a pluralist religion with widely different ideas into a national movement with a uniform ideology. This kind of destruction of Hindu longstanding values and virtues is more than Islam or Christianity can even hope to achieve.

People celebrate this as a victory? Really? It will not stop here. I think it made Hinduism more vulnerable than ever. From now on Christians are going to challenge Hindus even more, hoping for ever more intolerant reactions by Nationalists feeling in the winning mood. And as Nationalist organize their protests it will televised and sent around the world. And soon the world will think that Hindus are no different than Muslims and full of fundamentalists that can not tolerate different views.

And for what? Is this book an attack on Hinduism like some people try to make it believe by carefully collecting every detail that is wrong or not flattering in their personal view of impeccable Hinduism? No it is not. They totally overlook that the book, as bizarre as it may seem, is also full of love for Hinduism.

The ideas people have about history are often idealistic. For instance they believe that objective history is millennial old science. It is not, it is so recent it is still under heavy development. In ancient times history was simply what people wanted to believe about their past. Often kings ordered scholars to write a great history. When priest started to live in the courts of Kings they no longer were independent writers. So even if we have old scriptures, the fact that they are old does not mean they describe facts. In those days this was not even perceived as lying or deceiving. If people felt that that is how it must have been, they considered it truth. So scriptures can not be used as facts, because the people of that time or later considered them to be true. Today we live in a different consciousness.

But even so, what is fact in these matters? Even if we have abundance of information that does not create objective views. For instance, what is the present situation in Afghanistan? The only real fact is that Americans and Afghans are fighting other Afghans supported by others. but why? Is it a peace operation, an attempt to combat terrorism and religions extremist? Or is an invasion for whatever reasons? Not even the Afghans could give you a unanimous answer to this as they are divided along political, tribal lines. And we know very little of all the intrigue going on behind the curtains. So how are we going to write objective history about this centuries from now, if we can not come to a clear view right now?

Yes, we can summon dry facts, that Americans invade the country after as attack on the twin towers etc. But even that can be misleading. What facts do we present and what facts do we leave out, this can change the whole picture. And it does not tell us anything meaningful. Is does not make us understand the situation.

That is why some modern historians look for a new approach to history. In stead of creating the illusion of an overall objective historical view, they try to create an picture what life must have been like for certain people. They try to empathize into these people. Of course this is very subjective. And it easily leads to disgust from people when they describe practices that are at odds with present day moral. But you do not have to agree with it. It does not claim to be objective facts. And it is likely to be very different of what you expect, because it is an attempt to get an inside view from people that lived long ago in different circumstances. It is a thought experiment based on remains, our knowledge of similar people, and empathy. Even if it is mostly wrong, it can still give us insights. It is an interesting approach.

Of course this is not the nationalist idea of history. Nationalist only wants to hear about the great achievements of the ancestors. Tell us about the great victories of the ahimsa vegetarian warriors that created an empire and benignly ruled India holding up the religion that believed in the one supreme God from the dawn of man and held on to present day sexual moral. Everything else is an insult to present day Hinduism.

Now if the book was a schoolbook imposed on the youth full of ideas to purposely make Hinduism look ridiculous, I would understand the resistance. But this is simply one of the many books on Hinduism by a foreigner. What is probably the most shameful about it, is that most of these books are written abroad either by westerners or Indian migrants. Maybe Indian scholars find it to difficult or risky to overstep the boundaries of their own traditions to write such books or they are too dry to be attractive to a broader audience. So a broad view on Hinduism mostly comes from people out of India. Which is then translated as foreign supremacism. Nationalist Hindus seem to have missed that decolonization also changed a lot in western thinking, often overturning previous notions. No, they want to see colonialist attacks whenever something is written that is not flattering.

So now Hindu Nationalist are challenged to write their own heroic account of Indian history that does not contain any passage that somehow reflects negatively on Hinduism or Hindus. I guess this is something going to be along the lines of the super-race of the Hindu Indian, in all respects superior to the rest of human kind that is full of short-comings that Hindus have been lacking for thousands of years. When this book is written critics will have a field day.

I think Hindus underestimate how these kind of actions will reflect on the reputation of Hinduism. To westerners such actions bring back memories of the book burnings of the Catholic church, Nazis, Communists and Islamists. That is the company one is choosing. Reputation is easily damaged by foolish actions. How is it possible that the same Indian nation that has the greatness not to seek revenge for Islamic terrorist attacks, goes berserk over a fairly innocent book?

And by the way, whatever nationalists hoped to accomplish, I doubt it was to stop the book. In the few days after the withdrawal it created a big row on twitter and sold more copies than in all the years before. So the big victory for nationalists seems to be that they were able to rally people behind their provoking action, further encouraging them to show the world what intolerant people Hindus are. For Christian missionaries this suicide of reputation must be a God sent gift. Who knows they may even sponsor them to do more foolish things.

Maybe these Hindus will not digest my reaction too well either. But by the time a religion is controlled by people that start to preach, you are either for us or against us, I am long gone. That is the dark side of organized religion: nationalism. It is not that I believe Hinduism as a whole is moving in that direction, but some groups in Hinduism are moving in that direction. It is for the other Hindus to decide if they want to allow nationalists to become their spokespersons. If they do, I think they will learn to regret it.

I personally find the whole action shameful and out of character for what Hindu traditions have stood for. But then maybe I am guilty of idealizing too.

Jaskaran Singh
14 February 2014, 09:39 PM
So now Hindu Nationalist are challenged to write their own heroic account of Indian history that does not contain any passage that somehow reflects negatively on Hinduism or Hindus. I guess this is something going to be along the lines of the super-race of the Hindu Indian, in all respects superior to the rest of human kind that is full of short-comings that Hindus have been lacking for thousands of years.
You don't need a book, HLK's posts more than suffice. :p

Araloka
14 February 2014, 10:09 PM
Its ironic people get so upset about the "Aryan Invasion Theory" when it actually comes from the Vedas themselves. Then people call those who accept it 'racist' and accuse them of trying to claim Vedic heritage belongs to someone else, then they go around and do the exact thing they are claiming: They will say India is the font of all civilization, culture, knowledge and Indo-European languages all came from India (which is simply balderdash) to make themselves feel superior. :rolleyes:

Araloka
14 February 2014, 10:10 PM
And no one can accuse me of being 'racist' for accepting the AIT because I am both white and Indian, I have ancestry in almost EVERY Indo-European ethnic group from Iceland to India...

Sudas Paijavana
15 February 2014, 09:50 AM
In the few days after the withdrawal it created a big row on twitter and sold more copies than in all the years before.

Don't worry, Amazon Book Ratings still has the final say:


A 2.4 out of 5 rating is nothing to be too worried about. A lot of the negative reviews were posted by Westerners themselves.

Sudas Paijavana
15 February 2014, 09:57 AM
Namaste:

If anyone is interested in two books that deal with such subjects, check out the following:


"Invading the Sacred: An Analysis of Hinduism Studies in America" [Hardcover] by Antonio de Nicolas (Author, Editor), & Krishnan Ramaswamy (Author, Editor)
"Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science" [Hardcover] by Stefan Arvidsson

Twilightdance
17 February 2014, 09:14 AM
Of all the jubilant voices celebrating Wendy's book being recycled back to pulp, how many have actually taken the pain to read it and form an independent opinion (if that is actually possible)? Let me take a guess - Zero? No one?

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 10:09 AM
Its ironic people get so upset about the "Aryan Invasion Theory" when it actually comes from the Vedas themselves. Then people call those who accept it 'racist' and accuse them of trying to claim Vedic heritage belongs to someone else, then they go around and do the exact thing they are claiming: They will say India is the font of all civilization, culture, knowledge and Indo-European languages all came from India (which is simply balderdash) to make themselves feel superior. :rolleyes:

Random!


And no one can accuse me of being 'racist' for accepting the AIT because I am both white and Indian, I have ancestry in almost EVERY Indo-European ethnic group from Iceland to India...

Talk about more random!


Of all the jubilant voices celebrating Wendy's book being recycled back to pulp, how many have actually taken the pain to read it and form an independent opinion (if that is actually possible)? Let me take a guess - Zero? No one?

It's an okay book. It's definitely not as good as her Implied Spider, which was much shorter and more pronounced. As far as I know, Jaskaran and I are probably the only ones on here that have read The Hindus.

Instead, I would recommend --


"Hinduism: Past and Present" by Axel Michaels, "Indian Philosophy: A Very Short Introduction" by Sue Hamilton, "Aryans and British India" by Thomas R. Trautmann, "India: Brief History of a Civilization" by Thomas R. Trautmann, "Invading the Sacred: An Analysis of Hinduism Studies in America" by Antonio de Nicolas and Krishnan Ramaswamy, and "Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science" by Stefan Arvidsson.

Shanti
17 February 2014, 11:30 AM
I personally find the whole action shameful and out of character for what Hindu traditions have stood for. But then maybe I am guilty of idealizing too.

Namaste Avyaydya,

I understand your feelings but I'd like to share mine with you. This is a substantial milestone. The fact that enough Hindus were able to come together and produce this change is huge. It's not about being nationalistic or becoming spokespersons for organized religion, it's about expecting truth and accuracy with regards to a book written about your religion.

This is one area where we can and should learn from advocacy groups of other religions, they demand equal respect and truth. That's not asking too much. Here in America, most people know so little truths about Hinduism. Their knowledge is pretty much summed up to caste, sacred cows, elephant and monkey gods, and red dots. Books are written from a Christian and/or Western perspective and often aid the readers in believing they are right about us- idol worshipping, backwards, and unenlightened. Even the books that do not mean to, inadvertently do so because the authors themselves only know half truths. Doniger's book is no different.

People will say malicious or disparaging things about Hindus or Hinduism but would never dare say the same about the Jewish or Islamic faiths. Why? Because they know that there would a backlash, that they would be called out on their ignorance. They don't worry about Hindus calling them out.

Even the publishing of this book, the publishing house would be more apprehensive and cautious to ensure historical accuracy about a book about Jews or Muslims because they have learned to give them respect and know the people of those faiths will not be silent.

Having respect and tolerance for other faiths does not mean we should not also expect the same. I know historically, Hindus take a more laid back, live and let live attitude, but turning the cheek in this world where so much information and misinformation is available at our fingertips would be wrong. And if we stay silent, we are being irresponsible and simply helping others denigrate us.

I wish we didn't have to and ideally it would be a given understanding that we are tolerant. But silence is not seen as tolerant it's seen as acknowledging and agreeing with what has been said or done.

If your interested, here is a link to the petition that started this:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/206354487/Demand-for-Withdrawal-of-a-Flawed-Book-on-Hindu-History-Published-by-PENGUIN

~Shanti

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 11:58 AM
It's an okay book. It's definitely not as good as her Implied Spider, which was much shorter and more pronounced. As far as I know, Jaskaran and I are probably the only ones on here that have read The Hindus.

Instead, I would recommend --


"Hinduism: Past and Present" by Axel Michaels, "Indian Philosophy: A Very Short Introduction" by Sue Hamilton, "Aryans and British India" by Thomas R. Trautmann, "India: Brief History of a Civilization" by Thomas R. Trautmann, "Invading the Sacred: An Analysis of Hinduism Studies in America" by Antonio de Nicolas and Krishnan Ramaswamy, and "Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science" by Stefan Arvidsson.
Anything's better than Shiva: The Erotic Ascetic though. I've honestly never read a book so vile and nonsensical; that text should have been pulled out of publication instead. Here are some examples:
http://i.imgur.com/raaLp9b.png
http://i.imgur.com/cdsffvV.png

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 12:56 PM
I added a poll, I wrote the responses in Old Norse just to be funny (já means yes, nei means no, and ekki að alveg sama means I don't care). I realize that I have a strange sense of humor...

Believer
17 February 2014, 12:59 PM
Namaste Shanti,

Thank you for the well thought out and comprehensive post. Most Hindus can't seem to understand the difference between being tolerant/humble and being doormats for everyone to trample on. It is sad, sad, sad! Specially for us living in the West who have to hear all kinds of disparaging remarks, first because there is so much ignorance about Hinduism, and second because everyone knows that there will be no consequences - no calling out, no action taken to rectify the mistakes or a boycott of a news/publishing media. Any steps taken to reverse that is a huge deal for us, for our children and for the future generations of Hindus, here and in their homeland.


....read it and form an independent opinion (if that is actually possible)?
There is lot of self doubt there.
I thought the Bangloreans were very educated and smart people. The above statement seems to describe us all as imbeciles.

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
17 February 2014, 01:01 PM
I added a poll, I wrote the responses in Old Norse just to be funny (já means yes, nei means no, and ekki að alveg sama means I don't care). I realize that I have a strange sense of humor...


Vannakkam: For the record, and so everyone is clear, it wasn't banned. So by voting that it should have been, you're disagreeing with what happened. (The publisher pulled it from Indian selves.)

Aum Namasivaya

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 01:22 PM
Its ironic people get so upset about the "Aryan Invasion Theory" when it actually comes from the Vedas themselves.
WTH? Where in the veda-s does it mention AIT? Please tell me you're not going to use baseless Indological theory along the line of..."devrAj indra is called in duh veda-s as purandara and shatakratu, so it must be talkin'bout him and those Oreo-ins demolishing da cities o'dem Hairpins and their big-as* bathin' facilities lol!!1." :cool1:
Edit: Oh, and did I forget to mention vRtra, namuchi, and vala were the rAjA-s of the "hairpins;" makes perfect sense Indologically, lol.

Vannakkam: For the record, and so everyone is clear, it wasn't banned. So by voting that it should have been, you're disagreeing with what happened. (The publisher pulled it from Indian selves.)

Aum Namasivaya
praNAm,
You know what I mean; there was a lawsuit which practically forced them to withhold the text from publication. They didn't voluntarily do so, as per Doniger:

"But I do not blame Penguin Books, India. Other publishers have just quietly withdrawn other books without making the effort that Penguin made to save this book. Penguin, India, took this book on knowing that it would stir anger in the Hindutva ranks, and they defended it in the courts for four years, both as a civil and as a criminal suit. They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece — the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu, a law that jeopardizes the physical safety of any publisher, no matter how ludicrous the accusation brought against a book. An example at random, from the lawsuit in question."

oM shaM shanIshcharAya namaH

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 01:48 PM
"...They were finally defeated by the true villain of this piece — the Indian law that makes it a criminal rather than civil offense to publish a book that offends any Hindu..."


It's ironic Doniger would state that, because...

The Article in question doesn't make it criminal to publish a book that offends just Hindus and no one else - the Article also applies to books that offend Muslims, books that offend Jains, books that offend Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc.. It's been used numerous times to defend other religious groups; it is not just only for Hindus.

Doniger should have chai with Mr. Rushdie. :p

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 01:54 PM
Doniger should have chai with Mr. Rushdie. :p
Yeah, but unlike Rushdie, she doesn't have to carry some crazy Mullah's fatwa calling for her death on her shoulder (which would have probably been the case if she had chosen to write about Islam instead).

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 02:09 PM
WTH? Where in the veda-s does it mention AIT? Please tell me you're not going to use baseless Indological theory along the line of..."devrAj indra is called in duh veda-s as purandara and shatakratu, so it must be talkin'bout him and those Oreo-ins demolishing da cities o'dem Hairpins and their big-as* bathin' facilities lol!!1." :cool1:
Edit: Oh, and did I forget to mention vRtra, namuchi, and vala were the rAjA-s of the "hairpins;" makes perfect sense Indologically, lol.

Lmao. And, don't forget, Vrtra was a draw-vid-ian braw-min. :p


Vannakkam: For the record, and so everyone is clear, it wasn't banned. So by voting that it should have been, you're disagreeing with what happened. (The publisher pulled it from Indian selves.)

Aum Namasivaya

Mucho aheado of you, bro!

#16 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=114189&postcount=16)

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 02:23 PM
Lmao. And, don't forget, Vrtra was a draw-vid-ian braw-min. :p
"How dare you assume the hairpins were draw-veedyins, they were paramunda; what a stupid drAviDa nationalist, no better than them hindootvavaadiis" - Michael Witzel (it's just a joke, he never actually said that, although he and his friend Farmer have ridiculed people who assume the IVC to be drAviDian to as nationalistic.)

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 02:26 PM
"How dare you assume the hairpins were draw-veedyins, they were paramunda; what a stupid drAvida nationalist, no better than them hindootvavaadiis" - Michael Witzel

That's, like, such a, like, pro-moondah-wah-dean thing, like, to say!

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 02:33 PM
That's, like, such a, like, pro-moondah-wah-dean thing, like, to say!

"I retract my statment. Dey were Aliens, gracing the sky from their vimaan-uhs" -Witzel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlZ7bZTkUx8

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 02:42 PM
On a side note...

Apart from the evidently one-sided contents of this article (http://world.time.com/2014/02/12/sex-lies-and-hinduism-why-a-hindu-activist-targeted-wendy-donigers-book/), I came across a gem of a comment:



christie.jj 10 hours ago
@biigbang2013

It is the main reason India why remains a cesspool of stagnant ideas , notwithstanding some brilliant men like Tagore and Vatsayana it has produced in the past, is its stubbornness to accept fresh ideas and change. Great men like Buddha failed miserably to change the core rottenness of caste system that has been eating into the vitality of the Indian society. The beautiful doctrines of Buddha have made him the Light of Asia, all nations from Japan to China and Thailand EXCEPT India. Buddhist scholars and monks were hounded and massacred by Sankaracharya as late at the 8th century, to seek asylum in Sri Lanka. Hence the religious, not linguistic, civil war between the Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu Tamils of the same nation.

It seems that there is a prevalent notion held by anti-Hindus found on the Internet that Adi Shankara "hounded and massacred" Buddhist scholars and monks out of India "to seek asylum in Sri Lanka", "hence the religious, not linguistic, civil war between the Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu Tamils of the same nation".

I never knew that defeating people in debates and verbal communication would tantamount to [physical] genocide, even though many that lost these debates reverted back to a certain sect of the Hindu conglomeration.

Last time I checked, Ms. Christie, Adi Shankara wasn't responsible for the eradication of Buddhism from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the iconoclastic destruction of one of the most developed and liberal universities of the classical era known as Nalanda University. Nor did he "hound and massacre" Buddhist scholars and monks out of India into Sri Lanka, and nor is that the reason for why Hindu Tamils are being persecuted in Sri Lanka.

Why is such blatant ignorance so popular on the Net?

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 02:52 PM
"I retract my statment. Dey were Aliens, gracing the sky from their vimaan-uhs" -Witzel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlZ7bZTkUx8

You can't retract now! The Vee-maa-naas are the spaceships of the demonic fallen angels and false gods known as the Nephilim, who are defending themselves against God's Angels that are flying the Merkabahs!

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3IRaohIRZY) for more truth!

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 02:59 PM
On a side note...

Apart from the evidently one-sided contents of this article (http://world.time.com/2014/02/12/sex-lies-and-hinduism-why-a-hindu-activist-targeted-wendy-donigers-book/), I came across a gem of a comment:




It seems that there is a prevalent notion held by anti-Hindus found on the Internet that Adi Shankara "hounded and massacred" Buddhist scholars and monks out of India "to seek asylum in Sri Lanka", "hence the religious, not linguistic, civil war between the Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu Tamils of the same nation".

I never knew that defeating people in debates and verbal communication would tantamount to [physical] genocide, even though many that lost these debates reverted back to a certain sect of the Hindu conglomeration.

Last time I checked, Ms. Christie, Adi Shankara wasn't responsible for the eradication of Buddhism from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the iconoclastic destruction of one of the most developed and liberal universities of the classical era known as Nalanda University. Nor did he "hound and massacre" Buddhist scholars and monks out of India into Sri Lanka, and nor is that the reason for why Hindu Tamils are being persecuted in Sri Lanka.

Why is such blatant ignorance so popular on the Net?
What more can you expect when people are taught that great Hindu leaders like rAjarAja chola and kRShnadevarAya were oppressive whereas nAstika-s like ashoka (who ordered 500 women to be burnt alive for plucking leaves of a tree and making fun of the roughness of his skin) and mleccha-s like akbar (who, along with his army, murdered 30,000 innocent Hindus) are depicted as "ideal emperors?"

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 03:03 PM
What more can you expect when people are taught that great Hindu leaders like rAjarAja chola and kRShnadevarAya were oppressive whereas nAstika-s like ashoka (who ordered 500 women to be burnt alive for plucking leaves of a tree and making fun of the roughness of his skin) and mleccha-s like akbar (who, along with his army, murdered 30,000 innocent Hindus) are depicted as "ideal emperors?"


Using psychoanalysis, I have, like, come to the conclusion that the Buddhist Emperor Ashoka (who, like, wasn't really an emperor, like, but someone who practically inherited a kingdom, like, um, from his grandfather, um) valued the strength and aggressiveness of the phallus, um, and saw the chalice, like, as a mortal enemy of manhood, um, and, like, had 500 innocent women killed, like, because of his anti-female, like, sentiments, and, like, hatred of the opposite sex, like, um.

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 03:07 PM
Using psychoanalysis, I have, like, come to the conclusion that the Buddhist Emperor Ashoka (who, like, wasn't really an emperor, like, but someone who practically inherited a kingdom, like, um, from his grandfather, um) valued the strength and aggressiveness of the phallus, um, and saw the chalice, like, as a mortal enemy of manhood, um, and, like, had 500 innocent women killed, like, because of his anti-female, like, sentiments, and, like, hatred of the opposite sex, like, um.
What if he, and the entire mauryan dynasty, are descendants of the nephillim mentioned in that video you just posted?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW7Op86ox9g
:p

Sudas Paijavana
17 February 2014, 03:15 PM
:D

Coming back on track, here's a good article, IMHO:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/murali-balaji/indian-censorship-and-the_b_4777117.html

ps - For all those wondering, I voted nei. The book was not banned; and, I believe in written refutation of a work that one finds shoddy (e.g., Invading the Sacred is a wonderful standard of what I mean). Plus, the historical usage of Article 295 has never been consistent nor [practically] impartial.

Eastern Mind
17 February 2014, 07:03 PM
Vannakkam: I'd like to know more about the group that was willing to sue. Who are they and whom do they represent? I tried to search on them, but all I got was this controversy.

Aum Namasivaya

Jaskaran Singh
17 February 2014, 07:43 PM
Vannakkam: I'd like to know more about the group that was willing to sue. Who are they and whom do they represent? I tried to search on them, but all I got was this controversy.

Aum Namasivaya
praNAm,
The guy who sued was dIna nAth batrA, who is the head of vidyAbhAratI, which in turn seems to be an educational group that is part of the RSS (which I assume you know about). I got this information after searching for meh... around five minutes. You old-timers need to keep up with the "googling skills" of youths. Just kidding. :p

Jaskaran Singh
18 February 2014, 01:49 AM
Namaste Shanti,

I think this is more of an American view on Hinduism. The Anglo-Saxon tradition, especially the US, views existence as continuous power struggle for survival. That is the base of thinking in this culture, that is why Americans arm themselves and have a culture in which conflict and violence are heralded as solutions. At the same time they have a very prudent sexual moral. The irony is that the more violent people are, the less they can trust others. They always feel they have to defend themselves. Even defending is not enough but preemptive attack and invasion are necessary to "protect the peace". Americans lament over the tens of thousands they lost in the war in Vietnam as a national tragedy and not even think about the millions of innocent Vietnamese they killed. In Israel we see nationalist create the same self-pity. They kill five Palestinians for every Jew, steal all their land, and still claim to be the victims. In this thinking conflict is the solution.
praNAm,
One can be peaceful and speak out against false claims, you realize that, right? I believe that Hindu-s should not keep quiet when propaganda is spewed; it happens very often on the internet, probably moreso than you think. Look at the comments regarding Hinduism on the following website by a Christian by the name of Robert Lindsay: https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/

Aryavartian
18 February 2014, 06:45 AM
praNAm,
One can be peaceful and speak out against false claims, you realize that, right? I believe that Hindu-s should not keep quiet when propaganda is spewed; it happens very often on the internet, probably moreso than you think. Look at the comments regarding Hinduism on the following website by a Christian by the name of Robert Lindsay: https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/


Namaste,

RL is a nutjob and a troll.Nuff said.

Regarding Ashoka,Buddhist sources themselves suggests that he massacred over 18000 Ajivikas or Jainas even after converting into Buddhism.

Aryavartian
19 February 2014, 06:52 AM
Namaste,


What book, chapter, verse spell out or suggest that?

Pranam.


Namaste Believer,

I think it is mentioned in Ashokavadana.Although,i don't know which chapter or verse talks about it.

chandu_69
20 February 2014, 12:02 AM
Namaste Believer,

I think it is mentioned in Ashokavadana.Although,i don't know which chapter or verse talks about it.

You think ?.So, you are asking hindus (Who are under attack) to follow some narrative written on ashoka. I think you are trolling this forum.

Aryavartian
20 February 2014, 07:15 AM
You think ?.So, you are asking hindus (Who are under attack) to follow some narrative written on ashoka. I think you are trolling this forum.

Namaste,

My post was regarding Ashoka's alleged treatment of Jainas or Ajivikas.I'm not asking anyone to follow the narrative written on Ashoka.

Sahasranama
20 February 2014, 05:53 PM
If anyone wants to read the book, you can do so without throwing your money at Doniger:

http://www.kractivist.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/The-Hindus_-An-Alternative-History-2009-Wendy-Doniger.pdf

Girisha
23 February 2014, 12:06 AM
Amazing thread and well done to the more lengthy contributors, who write extremely well; I'm kind-of busy over here but will try to find more time to contribute.

I'm British but some years back was applying to US universities and emailed Doniger- her reply was brief and badly written in order to indicate she was far more important than writing with capital letters and full stops to a prospective student. She's just an academic- they research some interesting things and credit where it's due but the heart isn't there and they create sky castles of theorizing without reference or aesthetic spiritual experience or even the reality of actually travelling in India.

Best, Girisha