PDA

View Full Version : Do converts to Hinduism join a caste?



explorer_of_the_mind
08 April 2007, 10:10 PM
I know that there is a caste system in Hinduism, but what happens when someone converts to Hinduism? Are they brought into the caste system, such as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra etc.? Or are they still outside the caste system, since they were not born into Hinduism? This is something that has always puzzled me.

sm78
09 April 2007, 12:09 AM
I know that there is a caste system in Hinduism, but what happens when someone converts to Hinduism? Are they brought into the caste system, such as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra etc.? Or are they still outside the caste system, since they were not born into Hinduism? This is something that has always puzzled me.

In general most people from outside hinduism only take up a spiritual practice and do not convert formally. This is because I think we have no smartic rules on how to handle conversion. Smarta sects in particular do not believe that anyone can be converted to a hindu.

Outside the orthodox smarta and vaishnava sects other sects (particularly some saiva sects) do not necessarily believe in the rigidity of the caste system and thus conversion is not a big issue.

But as I said, I don't think most of the western hindu's are formally hindus. This is fine at the individual level ~ but is a big weakness at the social level. Our culture believes in propagation of the culture through generations ~ yet we have no means to propagate the culture in those who have embraced it from outside.

There are sometimes news of people in India re-converting to Hinduism after being converted to another religion ~ caste issues are minimal here as they already had a caste in hinduism and can re-join the same caste in which they belonged.

explorer_of_the_mind
09 April 2007, 03:40 AM
That is very interesting. A woman on www.beliefnet.com (http://www.beliefnet.com) announced on the Hindu forum that she was converting to Hinduism. But she converted as a Shaivite, so what you've said makes sense now.

So, am I correct in assuming that one can practice Hinduism without actually joining the religion formally? That seems to be the case with a lot of Westerners who practice Buddhism: they incorporate the religion into their lives, without formally converting. However, with Buddhism, there is no belief in caste, so outsiders can formally convert.

sm78
09 April 2007, 04:49 AM
That is very interesting. A woman on www.beliefnet.com (http://www.beliefnet.com) announced on the Hindu forum that she was converting to Hinduism. But she converted as a Shaivite, so what you've said makes sense now.

So, am I correct in assuming that one can practice Hinduism without actually joining the religion formally? That seems to be the case with a lot of Westerners who practice Buddhism: they incorporate the religion into their lives, without formally converting. However, with Buddhism, there is no belief in caste, so outsiders can formally convert.

Hinduism was not an organized religion and there are many teachers who take devotees from other religions as deciples without asking for conversion.

Practice in Hinduism in the spiritual sense really starts only after one has a preceptor or Guru. In case one's preceptor doesn't require any conversion (which is very likely), then there is no need for conversion.

Buddhism though an offshoot of the Sanatana Dharma and has so much similarities to it, still has one main difference. This is that it too like the middle eastern faith systems strongly believes in conversion ~ if I am not wrong. People may not convert because they do not formally follow a buddhist master ~ but I think buddhism very much encourages conversion. After all, belief in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are the 3 jewels by which every buddhist must live.

saidevo
09 April 2007, 09:12 AM
Namaste.


I know that there is a caste system in Hinduism, but what happens when someone converts to Hinduism? Are they brought into the caste system, such as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra etc.? Or are they still outside the caste system, since they were not born into Hinduism? This is something that has always puzzled me.

Because of the growing interest of Westerners to follow as well as to actually get converted to Sanatana Dharma, the Himalayan Academy established by in the USA Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami has formalized conversion into Sanatana Dharma. According to them, an outsider adopts a Hindu name and Hindu Sect, but is not admitted to any caste. Incidentally, varna refers more to the profession than the caste. I think a westerner who has become a pundit in the Vedas and actually practices it, automatically fits into the Brahmana varna (not caste) and earns the title Acharya or Shastry. An example is the famous Dr David Frawley aka Vamadeva Shastry.

The following link to a publication by the Himalayan Academy has the formality for conversion, complete with certificates and sanction to visit all Hindu temples:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_ch-7.html

I am not aware of any such formal arrangements existing in the Hindu religious institutions in India.

Agnideva
09 April 2007, 10:01 AM
Namaste Explorer,

What you ask are very important questions. There are various opinions within Hinduism about both conversion and caste, and each person may give you a different answer. Here’s mine:

When it comes to conversion, there are two schools of thought. There is the orthodox brahmanical (Smarta) view that a person cannot be converted to Hinduism – this view is sometimes found in textbooks. Many believe this point of view became formalized in medieval Hinduism because ancient brahmana texts of the Vedas do speak of conversion, and have specified rituals for conversion. The reform Hindu organization called Arya Samaj actually brought back the conversion process in the late 19th century. The conversion process involves a shuddhi (purification) and a namakarana (name-giving). The other side is the Agamic schools of Vaishnavism, Shaivism and Shaktism which do, and probably always have, accepted converts through the namakarana process.

When it comes to caste, we must understand that there are two types of “caste systems.” The one Sanatana Dharma texts speak of is called the varna system. Varna means “color” and it is the temperament that colors one’s mind. One chooses to follow one’s path in life based one’s own temperaments and natural propensities – this is the basis of the four-fold system and its original intention. Note that at different times of one’s life, and even at different times of the day, I may be of different varnas (this is my personal interpretation).

Then there is the social system followed by people of the Indian subcontinent called caste (from Portuguese casta, meaning breed), known in Indian languages as jati (birth). All people in the Indian subcontinent have a jati, regardless of religion. This is similar to how we have in the US terms like Italian-American, Mexican-American, Indian-American, etc. The jati system is birth-based, and generally people within a given jati have been largely endogamous. Historically what has happened is that entire jatis have claimed to be part of a varna, and so the varna system also came to be regarded as birth-based in medieval Hinduism. This has also created a social hierarchy in the Indian subcontinent and had led to many problems that continue even today.

So, if a person is converting to Hinduism, s/he need not worry about the jati as that is something only a South-Asian person can have through birth. And, one really need not worry about varna either because that is something you define for yourself. In it’s Indian context, Hinduism is both a culture and religion, but in its western context, Hinduism is a religion only. So conversion into Hindu religion is fully possible (if that is what one chooses), and classification into any caste label is completely unnecessary.

Traditional Hindu priests belonging to the Vaishnava, Shaiva and Shakta schools do perform namakarana ritual for non-Hindus, and so does the Arya Samaj. The Himalayan Academy reports, however, that Smarta priests have refused to perform the ritual.

OM Shanti,
A.

Jigar
12 April 2007, 09:47 PM
Namaste Explorer
Then there is the social system followed by people of the Indian subcontinent called caste (from Portuguese casta, meaning breed), known in Indian languages as jati (birth). All people in the Indian subcontinent have a jati, regardless of religion. This is similar to how we have in the US terms like Italian-American, Mexican-American, Indian-American, etc. The jati system is birth-based, and generally people within a given jati have been largely endogamous. Historically what has happened is that entire jatis have claimed to be part of a varna, and so the varna system also came to be regarded as birth-based in medieval Hinduism. This has also created a social hierarchy in the Indian subcontinent and had led to many problems that continue even today.


OM Shanti,


A.


Namaste Agnideva,
The Jāti heirarchial order of Kerala society, in the past, was a means of delegating duties and profession to people. Now considered to be outdated and unnecessary, it merely assumes a historical value. Note: The "Jāti system" is since the Vedic "Varna system" is not applicable to South India.

Is this another jati System?


Om Kara,
Jigar

Agnideva
12 April 2007, 10:21 PM
Namaste Agnideva,
The Jāti heirarchial order of Kerala society, in the past, was a means of delegating duties and profession to people. Now considered to be outdated and unnecessary, it merely assumes a historical value. Note: The "Jāti system" is since the Vedic "Varna system" is not applicable to South India.

Is this another jati System?

Namaste Jigar,

From where we stand, the jati system and Vedic varna system are completely mixed, so it's hard to differentiate between the two of them, and most don't differentiate between the two calling both as "caste." Jati is both a birth and an occupational guild, and many jati names are based on occupation. For example, the name Gandhi means grocer, and Gandhis have claimed vaishya (vanik) as their varna.

As for the above, what the writer says could be said for any part of the Indian subcontinent, and is not special to Kerala or South India. I am not sure what s/he means by "the Vedic 'varna system' is not applicable to South India." South Indians have used varna labels as much as Hindus everywhere else.

Regards,
A.

Bhairava108
16 July 2007, 01:49 PM
This is how I have understood Caste and Hinduism, all though being part of the same whole. where as one can adopt or convert to Hinduism one can not adopt or join a caste. infact anyone outside the caste system is considered an untouchable. And if you are a western Hindu even if you have been formaly converted to Hinduism you are not allowed in some Temples throughout India and Nepal. personally I think the Caste system should be returned to its Vedic roots or abolished cause it has deffinatley become a means of clear discrimination.

KiranDev
26 July 2007, 08:37 AM
Namaste,
As I understand it, in ancient Vedic society, a person's aptitude (guna), conduct (karma) and nature (swabhava) were considered in order to assign him his/her varna. Only later did it become hereditary. Thus, it seems a convert to Hinduism should be able to adopt a varna based on his/her guna, karma, and swabhava.

In my case, I apopted the kshatriya varna along with its duties. In adopting this varna, it was clear that this means to protect Dharma and the people. Kshatriya's are sanctioned by God to serve humanity - these duties I humbly accepted and seek to fulfill. Luckily, Rama is there as a role model.

Aum shanti,

Kiran

Agnideva
26 July 2007, 09:14 AM
Namaste KiranDev,

As I understand it, in ancient Vedic society, a person's aptitude (guna), conduct (karma) and nature (swabhava) were considered in order to assign him his/her varna. Only later did it become hereditary. Thus, it seems a convert to Hinduism should be able to adopt a varna based on his/her guna, karma, and swabhava.

In my case, I apopted the kshatriya varna along with its duties. In adopting this varna, it was clear that this means to protect Dharma and the people. Kshatriya's are sanctioned by God to serve humanity - these duties I humbly accepted and seek to fulfill. Luckily, Rama is there as a role model.
A most beautiful message. I hope one day all Hindus will begin to see it like this, and drop the birth-based system and all biases that go with it.

Regards,
A.

satay
26 July 2007, 10:01 AM
Namaste KiranDev,

A most beautiful message. I hope one day all Hindus will begin to see it like this, and drop the birth-based system and all biases that go with it.

Regards,
A.

namaste,
I agree though not completely. I don't think that hindus need to drop the caste system (birth based). However, those who are born outside of a caste are already in a varna as KiranDev so beautifully described.

Caste system is a different story.

I don't know why we should drop the caste system. What's wrong with it?
Just because it has a target written all over it and missionaries have been attacking it for hundreds of years, doesn't make the system wrong. The system was designed to deal with muslim tyranny, in my opinion but now is part of the Indian culture. If someone (missionaries) don't like it, so what should we do?

let's try to collect some good things about the caste system in a different thread.

ps: just being 'devil's advocate' :)

Agnideva
26 July 2007, 10:41 AM
Namaste Satay,

ps: just being 'devil's advocate' :)
Sometimes, we need devil's advocates :).

This is the way I see it. There are two systems here: one is the varna which is what KiranDev has described. There are only four varnas, no fifth. The other one is jati (caste), which is a based on birth and hereditary occupation. There are 6000-7000 jatis in South Asia, and all people there have jatis, whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, etc.

Today what we have is massive confusion of the two systems, and people of certain jatis hereditarily claim a certain varna and believe that one is born into it. Varna, the way I see it, is not determined by birth, but by a person’s temperament. It can only be self-defined. In fact, I personally believe just like the three gunas are within each of us, so are the four varnas.

Jati is part of one’s tribal/ethnic background and cannot be dropped, as it is part of a person’s identity. No one needs to drop that. One only needs to admit that varnas are independent of jati, and are to be self-defined as KiranDev has done. This is my personal take on the subject.

OM Shanti,
A.

satay
26 July 2007, 11:22 AM
Jati is part of one’s tribal/ethnic background and cannot be dropped, as it is part of a person’s identity. No one needs to drop that. One only needs to admit that varnas are independent of jati, and are to be self-defined as KiranDev has done. This is my personal take on the subject.

OM Shanti,
A.

Another great post! Yes, I agree with your personal take on the subject, completely.

Nicely put. :)

Ganeshprasad
27 July 2007, 03:26 PM
Pranam All

Varnashram is a perfect system ordained by Krishna

Over the time with the on set of kali the system has largely been diluted the standard has dropped in all the varna.

It is still the best system on offer if we strip out the discriminatory and egoistic superiority complex.


catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam

The four Varna or divisions of human society, based on aptitude and vocation, were created by Me. Though I am the author of this system, one should know that I do nothing and I am eternal. (See also 18.41) (4.13)

brahmana-ksatriya-visam
sudranam ca parantapa
karmani pravibhaktani
svabhava-prabhavair gunaih


The division of labor into the four cate-goies -- Braahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra -- is also based on the Gunas inherent in peoples' nature (or the natural propensities, and not necessarily as one's birth right), O Arjuna. (See also 4.13) (18.41)

It is quite clear guna and karma plays an important part in establishing this system. So where does birth fit in all this?
The varna system today is in dire state, but still plays an important part in the society weather we like it or not.

It has become fashionable to blame the Varna system especially the birth based, the chaos that we see, this inequality (exists in every society) has made the cast system the main target of blame not without some justification, also an easy target for those forces who conspire to malign Hindu dharma.

At what point varna would best be decided.How would a varna system function, who would decide what varna one belong to? Just as in school we get graded according to our ability and final result at the end of a term so in my understanding the birth plays a significant role in deciding the varna of a person. . After all if we believe in karma then it is at the end of ones life time we have to accept our new beginning.
Of course in an exceptional circumstance a student may be promoted to higher class so there always remains a scope to change ones varna in the same lifetime

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya
sada tad-bhava-habitat

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. (8.06)

Such a yogi is born in a family of wise transcendentalists. A birth like this is very difficult, indeed, to obtain in this world. (6.42)

After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

Jai Shree Krishna

devisarada
31 August 2007, 07:21 AM
Just to add my two cents worth on this topic, among the born Hindus that I socialize with most, (West Indians) caste is not that important. In fact, a lot of them are not sure of their caste, with the exception of Brahmins. It seems that even non-Brahmins are being accepted in Mandirs as pujaris within our communty.

satay
31 August 2007, 09:18 AM
Just to add my two cents worth on this topic, among the born Hindus that I socialize with most, (West Indians) caste is not that important. In fact, a lot of them are not sure of their caste, with the exception of Brahmins. It seems that even non-Brahmins are being accepted in Mandirs as pujaris within our communty.

Namaste Devi!

It has been a very long time...I am very happy to see you back!
:)

devisarada
31 August 2007, 11:03 AM
Namaste Devi!

It has been a very long time...I am very happy to see you back!
:)

I'm happy to be here, hopefully, I'll have more time to spend with you. I like what I see on this forum!

Eastern Mind
08 September 2007, 02:58 PM
As a Hindu adoptive (Saiva), I do not believe in caste. I do believe in conduct putting you in a particular regard within the community. "From across the tracks" in the west. Caste ought to be determined by behaviour. Other than the 'brahmin' / non-brahmin duality, (Brahmin only does the pujas in the sanctum) in the community I associate with there is very little sense of caste. Of course its there in some individuals, and in some of the temples I've visited, I've felt very unwelcome because of my skin color. Could have just been my paranoia though. I do remember a small child approaching me in Toronto and being a child, and curious, saying to me, "White people don't worship Hindu gods." She was cute, and since I am a teacher by profession, I said. "Oh, yeah? Some do. Come with me." So she followed along as I prostrated, tugged my ears in front of Ganesha, and basically made the rounds of the temple with her in tow.
"So what do you think now?" I asked her. She gave that innocent lovely childish smile and said, "Yup, I guess some do."
Aum Namashivaya

devisarada
09 September 2007, 11:07 AM
namaste,
I agree though not completely. I don't think that hindus need to drop the caste system (birth based). However, those who are born outside of a caste are already in a varna as KiranDev so beautifully described.

Caste system is a different story.

I don't know why we should drop the caste system. What's wrong with it?
Just because it has a target written all over it and missionaries have been attacking it for hundreds of years, doesn't make the system wrong. The system was designed to deal with muslim tyranny, in my opinion but now is part of the Indian culture. If someone (missionaries) don't like it, so what should we do?

let's try to collect some good things about the caste system in a different thread.

ps: just being 'devil's advocate' :)

I think a thread on the positive aspects of the jati system would be very helpful. All societies have this at some level, even if it is not formally recognised.

Khadgar
30 October 2007, 01:59 PM
'caste' isn't an issue. It was never part of Sanatani to begin with.

Varna however is different. And you choose your own Varna through action, intention, and Dharma--Duty.