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Spirit Seeker
03 March 2014, 01:59 PM
Just a simple and direct question. Many nondualists from my observation focus on plurality like "we " and "us". This leaves off God as impersonal or mechanical from this viewpoint. Can one accept advaita and still believe in ishvara as the inner controller. I figured as long as there is duality, then The Lord that answers prayers and the one to have an intimate personal spiritual relationship with is there, until one reaches that point of merging back into Brahman. In my mind God is purely singular in this sense since everything is the exact same in and during that state it is not plural. This leaves no room for an "I" or "we" I in that context. It's just God and god alone in the singular sense. Is this advaita?

silence_speaks
04 March 2014, 12:16 AM
Dear Spirit Seeker,
:) An Advaitin can [and should] have a personal God.
There is a upanishad called Ganapathi Atharva Sirsha Upanishad... it says :
Namasthe Ganapathaye ... I do namaskaram to Lord Ganapathi.
Tvameva pratyaksham TAT TVAM ASI ... you are Ever Available and that AM I.
Tvameva kevalam karthasi ... you are the only "Doer"
Tvameva kevalam Dhartasi ... you are the only one who bears all this.
Tvameva kevalam harthasi ... you are the only one who takes away every thing.
Tvam sakshat atmasi nityam ... you are Ever the Atma or Self !

:) Do we see that ?
Advaitin's God is the Awareness. The Consciousness which is Ever Present Witness of everything. He can imagine that Awareness to be manifest as a personal God ... like Ganapathi in this case. And yet, he knows that that personal God is Atma Always !

Lord Hanuman is said to have said to sri Rama: From the standpoint of body I am Your Slave, from the standpoint of mind I am a part of you and from the stand point of Awareness I am you.

I am not sure where this occurs and in which Ramayana. But this is a good explanation.

The answer to the question : Does an Advaitin have a personal God is relative... as long as the "Person" seems to be there ... there is a personal God also possible. Even for a so called dvaita-vadhi ... the personal God can be there only in waking and dream states. He cannot have a personal God in deep sleep! So the personal God is there as long as a devotee is there ... as long as there is a "Person" who feels the need for purification of mind or even if there is an apparent "Person" who can interact with the world, its possible to do Bhavana of God.

Love!
Silence

devotee
04 March 2014, 03:42 AM
Namaste SS,


Just a simple and direct question. Many nondualists from my observation focus on plurality like "we " and "us".

How did you come to this conclusion ? I can say that it is not true.


This leaves off God as impersonal or mechanical from this viewpoint.

Impersonal and mechanical ? Who said so ? Is God defined in this manner ?


Can one accept advaita and still believe in ishvara as the inner controller.

Sure ! In fact, that is what is taught to an Advaitic disciple.


I figured as long as there is duality, then The Lord that answers prayers and the one to have an intimate personal spiritual relationship with is there, until one reaches that point of merging back into Brahman. In my mind God is purely singular in this sense since everything is the exact same in and during that state it is not plural. This leaves no room for an "I" or "we" I in that context. It's just God and god alone in the singular sense. Is this advaita?

There is a lot of confusion on what Advaitins believe and what they do. In my previous several posts, I have tried to give a correct picture of what Advaitins believe and what they do.

See, the problem is that Advaita VedAnta is not New-Age phenomenon and it is not Buddhism and it is not what goes on on internet discussions in the name of Advaita. We are talking about Advaita VedAnta and we should stick to that. I will jot down some important points which would help :

a) There are scriptures and there have been teachers who start with pure non-duality concept and stick to that. Like Ramana Maharishi, AshTavakra Gita etc. However, the common practice taught by the Advaitic Gurus is to go slowly to that stage. That direct path too is valid but that is only for those who are already spiritually advanced to a great extent.

To a beginner Advaitin, God is like personal Father or Mother. You are taught to treat God as your very own Father/Mother ... not only theoretically but also feel Him/Her as if you can touch and feel Him/Her. You must focus and visualise in such a manner. You are taught not to behave with God as His servant but as His son/daughter. You are taught to ask anything from Him/Her as a matter of right which is yours as His/Her own Son/Daughter and not beg from Him/Her. You are taught to feel one-ness with Him/Her as if you have merged into Him/Her.

Regular practice of Meditation is for bringing the mind to single-pointed goal i.e. God and remove the noise of the world that hinders our spiritual progress/Self-realisation.

So, there is personal God and there is prayer and there is healing and there is asking for God's help whenever the practitioner feels like. All these would become meaningless when you become Self-realised but until you attain that state, this is the path. In fact, for Self-realisation God's grace is considered very very important.

b) The ultimate Reality is One and there is no scope of duality. But the path to Non-duality goes through Duality first though always reminding that There is actually One which manifests as many. This following Advaitic song will make things clear :

"So, do thou my Lord,
Thou and I never apart,
Wave of the Sea dissolve in the Sea,
I am the bubble make me the Sea.
Make me the Sea, oh, make me the sea,
I am the bubble, make me the Sea."

Now, please see above. There is no use of "We" and "Us" but "I". There is personal prayer being made to God to dissolve all the duality and merge myself into Him as a Sea-bubble becomes one with Sea.

OM

Spirit Seeker
04 March 2014, 06:03 AM
Namaste Devotee :),


How did you come to this conclusion ? I can say that it is not true.


Impersonal and mechanical ? Who said so ? Is God defined in this manner ?

I can assure you that it is nobody here. But I will clarify so we are on the same page. I would hate to make a gross generalization but I will just go based off what I've been exposed to. Many here in the western world are really committed to "killing" off God even in spirituality. Some meditate, focus on unity, develop their spirituality , but for some due to unpleasant past experiences with certain religions that shall not be named the word "God" leaves a bad taste on them since many still have this image of an old man in the clouds judging and nitpicking on lives.

It really depends on the framework one goes by, which also depends on the individual and how such spiritual framework applys to them. But I don't think Pantheism can really be counted as theism? Again when it comes to pantheism which is a developing thought here, The word God is used more as a metaphor rather then a cosmic intelligence. So we have some that say " I don't like using the word God, I prefer universe or higher self.". So in there minds there is no room for Ishvara or the personal God. God is just a metaphor for " energy" and pretty much nothing more then that.

Now when I see this , and then read up on great saints like ramakrishna or Sarada Devi who taught advaita and non duality, he was able to accept all this AND still have a personal loving relationship with The Goddess Kali Ma. So it makes me wonder if many traditional advaitans can do it then why do so many Pantheists sit uncomforable with the thought of a Personal God. Ishvara. So in that sense it is a more of a focus on plurality, since some individuals want to become their own Gods in this life (again pantheism) while they can't conceive of a personal God within all this unity. So they have the Brahman part nailed down, but it leaves out ishvara from fitting in so due to the limiting framework one operates in within their mind, they operate on an absolute "it's either or" but why cannot it be both? That is the observation I am pointing out. If advaitans have so much love for God and still focus on unity, then why do others have trouble accepting God?

Great post devotee, you and Amrut have helped me a great deal towards understanding advaita a lot better each time since I have first joined this forum. I highly appreciate it from you both! :)

hinduism♥krishna
04 March 2014, 07:11 AM
Namaste , I'm just replying in simple words.


Just a simple and direct question. Many nondualists from my observation focus on plurality like "we " and "us".
Invalid statement ! You should say this " Many dualistic from my observation focus on plurality like we and us "


This leaves off God as impersonal or mechanical from this viewpoint.No need to say anything . Vishnu is Nirakara (formless) , this has abundant proofs in Shastras .


Can one accept advaita and still believe in ishvara as the inner controller. For those who don't understand who is inner controller , it's natural that they see difference between atma and bramha.

As stated in Bhagavata Purana , Ishwara himself enters in body as a jiva and he appeared in it as if he is in the influence of maya . The truth is that ishwara/jiva is beyond liberation and bondage . Krishna says " The dull witted people see atma in bondage . They don't know the real nature of atma " For more reference , read last advaita message of krishna from bhagavata purana .

There is a misconception among some dualistic people that there are two souls in one body . One is atma and another is paramatma . But this is not the fact . Because in bhagavata purana , krishna says " There is only one kshetradnya in this body and he is me only "

I tell another thing from bhagavata purana . Once vishnu appeared as Hansa in front of sanaka sages . At that time , sanaka asked " Who are you ? " Bhagavan replied " Who am I ? This question itself is not valid . If duality itself is not real , how can you address me such ? Whatever appears different from me is me only . What I am is what you are , all these gods are , all these jivas are , all these rakshasas are . I am atma of everything . There is nothing other than me ."


I figured as long as there is duality, then The Lord that answers prayers and the one to have an intimate personal spiritual relationship with is there, until one reaches that point of merging back into Brahman. In my mind God is purely singular in this sense since everything is the exact same in and during that state it is not plural. This leaves no room for an "I" or "we" I in that context. It's just God and god alone in the singular sense. Is this advaita?As stated in Bhagavata purana , worshipping vishnu as Self/Atma is the highest worship of Vishnu .

Some dualistics say that gopi's worship was topmost worship of vishnu . But I have slightly different view . Gopis were indeed great devotees . But krishna himself said that gopis didn't know my real nature . They were thinking me as their lover . They didn't know me as all-pervading ( vishnu ) . Yet because of contact with me as image of bramhan , they attained me ." [ Krishna said these while explaining importance of contact with sages ]

Another thing , According to bhagavata purana , Gopis didn't go to Vaikuntha or golaka [ In fact There is no mention of golaka in entire bhagavata purana . So it's difficult to believe in golaka ] . In 82th chapter of 10th canto of bhagavata purana , there is a conversation between krishna and gopi .
I am giving last verses from this conversation :

Shri krishna says to gopi " Whatever there was , whatever there is and whatever there will be , is me only . "

" These Panchabhutas and jivas are imagined in my absolute truth of bramhan . One should know me like this "

Shaunak said : " Hearing this knowledge of atma , Gopi's jivahood got destroyed and they got united with Shri krishna "

Another misconception is that dvaitians consider no difference between jiva and atma . This is not the fact . Jiva is limited and Because of his sukshma sharira , he is imagined as an atom . While atma is Sarvagatah -omnipresent ( 3rd chapter of gita ) and is Paramatma or bramhan [ " Aham bramhasmi-Ayam atma Bramha( Mandukya Upanishada - essence of all upanishadas ).

This is the truth. So according to Advaitians, it's always better to worship God by holding the truth in the mind.

Hari Hari Govinda Hari..

devotee
04 March 2014, 10:09 PM
Namaste SS,

I sort of guessed that you were influenced by Western distorted view of Advaita which young people subscribe to. I have seen many proclaiming that they have attained self-realisation when I found that they had all basic carnal desires blazing within them as fire. This is utter nonsense.

Advaita VedAnta doesn't refute or ignore Ishvara. Ishvara is the third state of Brahman and if that is denied then there is nothing we can bank upon as fourth state cannot be practically dealt with.

It is not that there is no direct path but there are very serious dangers unless you are spiritually very highly advanced. You have no idea where you are going and there is no guide ... you are being led by your own made up notions and ego-driven ideas.

OM

Spirit Seeker
05 March 2014, 06:11 AM
Namaste Devotee,

It seems you misunderstood me. I did not say I subscribed to any of the 'ideas' I have mentioned above in my previous post. Yes here it is inevitable one comes across and is influenced by distorted truths, but I wouldn't be here otherwise asking these questions to find out what the real deal is. As I brought up , I look into teaching of traditional advaitans such as ramakrishna and sarada Devi and I love it. They can accept a personal god. But then I look at the state of what goes on here(where I live) and wonder why some here have trouble accepting a personal god even when they claim to go by their own so called version of advaita? That is why I said you wouldn't find that here on this forum..

Thank you for your posts as well silence and Krishna. :)

saidevo
05 March 2014, 10:25 AM
namaste everyone.

'prajnAnam brahma'--consciousness/awareness is Brahman, declare the upaniShads. So, an advaitin should cultivate this awareness in his/her spiritual practice. The following posts might help in this direction:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31586&postcount=73
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=29149&postcount=64

Here is a lighthearted account of such awareness:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6483

*****