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isavasya
01 April 2014, 02:47 PM
This incidence happened about 3 years ago. I was traveling in a taxi in a very busy area of Delhi. The taxi was passing through a flyover. The Man driving the cab was very tired and had dozed off while the cab was still in a high speed. There was a truck moving in the parallel lane just a little behind the cab I was sitting in. My taxi got almost blown off by the truck but at the right moment I woke up the taxi driver who was going to hit the truck in a very high speed. The truck driver also did well to move to the right very quickly. My cab driver apologized for the incidence but I really saw death for a second.

Later I remembered that before I left my house I had been singing this stotram.
चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर पाहिमाम् ।
चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर रक्षमाम् ॥

Shiva,I submit myself unto Thy feet. Protect me forever!

Obviously I don't claim that it was a miracle or I escaped death because Shiva saved me.....but I do like to say that in depressing times God is a great comfort for devotees. I don't know if I believe in God or not, but name of Shiva and Parvati comes to my lips every now and then.

Eastern Mind
01 April 2014, 02:58 PM
This incidence happened about 3 years ago. I was traveling in a taxi in a very busy area of Delhi. The taxi was passing through a flyover. The Man driving the cab was very tired and had dozed off while the cab was still in a high speed. There was a truck moving in the parallel lane just a little behind the cab I was sitting in. My taxi got almost blown off by the truck but at the right moment I woke up the taxi driver who was going to hit the truck in a very high speed. The truck driver also did well to move to the right very quickly. My cab driver apologized for the incidence but I really saw death for a second.

Later I remembered that before I left my house I had been singing this stotram.
चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर पाहिमाम् ।
चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर चन्द्रशेखर रक्षमाम् ॥

Shiva,I submit myself unto Thy feet. Protect me forever!

Obviously I don't claim that it was a miracle or I escaped death because Shiva saved me.....but I do like to say that in depressing times God is a great comfort for devotees. I don't know if I believe in God or not, but name of Shiva and Parvati comes to my lips every now and then.




Vannakkam: I've only been there for a couple of days. Let's just say it was Siva protecting you.

For the westerners who would like a quick lesson on Indian roads..:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X67ZnkznJ4s

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
01 April 2014, 03:11 PM
Namaste,

Not sure how old you are, or how much commitment you have to SD, but just look at the following statements,


...I don't know if I believe in God or not....
...in depressing times God is a great comfort...
...at the right moment I woke up the taxi driver...I escaped death because Shiva saved me

With a questionable belief in God, how does he provide you comfort in times of depression?
With a questionable belief in God, and you being the reason for accident avoidance by waking up the driver, how did God save you?

I would like to think that what you wrote was due to your lack of familiarity with and inexperience in expressing yourself in English.


I've only been there for a couple of days.
Where have you been for a couple of days school teacher? In Delhi? :)

Pranam.

isavasya
01 April 2014, 03:52 PM
With a questionable belief in God, how does he provide you comfort in times of depression?
Namaste,


To believe in God and to love God are two different things. I do not care if God is real or not. I love Shiva and Parvati- What they represent. The idea of God is enough for me. That there is a being who owns the universe yet sacrifices everything for humanity and lives the most simplest life as yogi concentrating on self is what attracts me to GOD. Whether the God actually exists is secondary but the idea of what that God represents is primary to me. The Nasadiya Sukta from tenth mandala of Rig Veda too declares that nobody may know from where has arisen the creation, it further says even the creator might not know. In short SD for me is not about having absolute faith in God but about having the desire to keep learning. Self-enquiry. But still if one loves God for what the concept of God represents then it can only do good.


With a questionable belief in God, and you being the reason for accident avoidance by waking up the driver, how did God save you?I did not claim that the God saved me. I said that I don't know whether God saved me or not but feeling of God or idea of God is what makes one happy in bad times. For example by reading the Ramayana, one is inspired by the great morals and character of Sri Ramchandra. It does not matter to me at least whether the Ramayana happened or not, the ideal character of Sri Rama will remain great in spite of whether Ramayana is based completely on real events or partly on real events.

Believer
01 April 2014, 05:11 PM
Namaste,

I am completely missing something here,

That there is a being who owns the universe yet sacrifices everything for humanity and lives the most simplest life as yogi concentrating on self is what attracts me to GOD.
yogi is a realized human being who has conquered human needs,
God has everything, is self fulfilled and does not need anything external. He does not live like a yogi, He lives like GOD.


by reading the Ramayana, one is inspired by the great morals and character of Sri Ramchandra. It does not matter to me at least whether the Ramayana happened or not
So, a good bollywood movie starring one of the Khan boys, with some inspirational moral scenes would suffice? :)
Why read a boring book like Ramayana if you can get it all from a movie in 2.5 hours and also be entertained with some song and dance thrown in the mix?

Pranam.

isavasya
01 April 2014, 05:30 PM
Namaste,


yogi is a realized human being who has conquered human needs,
God has everything, is self fulfilled and does not need anything external. He does not live like a yogi, He lives like GOD.
That's your understanding of God. Not wrong at all. BUT God is the also the guy who our shastras depict as living in Himalayas as a Yogi. That you are unable to identify him as God would not make him anything less. Of course God is also the one absolute consciousness which is present in our Atma.


So, a good bollywood movie starring one of the Khan boys, with some inspirational moral scenes would suffice? :)
Why read a boring book like Ramayana if you can get it all from a movie in 2.5 hours and also be entertained with some song and dance thrown in the mix?To my memory, I have boycotted bollywood for past 6 years. Ramayana may be boring for you, was interesting to me.


I am completely missing something here,

Yes sure. The understanding that others may have different understanding of dharma and God than you have. Considering that you asked a fellow sanatan dharmi to put his head in cold water when he/she repeated the Upanishad's stance of 'Jagan mithya' or universe is illusion, it is no wonder you may be missing something here.

bhargavsai
27 May 2014, 02:17 AM
Namaste,

Not sure how old you are, or how much commitment you have to SD, but just look at the following statements,


With a questionable belief in God, how does he provide you comfort in times of depression?
With a questionable belief in God, and you being the reason for accident avoidance by waking up the driver, how did God save you?

I would like to think that what you wrote was due to your lack of familiarity with and inexperience in expressing yourself in English.



Sir, with all due respect. I have a few questions for you.

With a questionable belief in God, would God ever isolate a human being? God, might, if he exists, provide support or happiness through his grace. Faith is not a condition for the grace of god, isn't it?

God might do things through human beings. It might be God who made her wake up the driver. Nothing happens without the will of God. So, isn't it God who saved her?

I don't think it is her lack of familiarity with English. I think it is her humility which says those words. And humility is a great thing! Isnt it?

fem_phoenix1109
27 May 2014, 06:21 AM
Namaste,

I have found that anytime I sincerely pour my heart out to Lord Shiva, he finds a way to resolve my pain in ways that I could have never thought possible, and ways I never could have orchestrated on my own.

The first time this happened was what led me to this path in the first place. I've always felt spiritual and religious, but never fit on any of the paths that I had been taught. I fell into a depression, and several nights I prayed to God in whatever form might be out there, just to have a connection and understanding. I didn't know anything about Hinduism or Lord Shiva at the time, I just knew I needed a connection with the divine. Over the next few weeks, little things led me to discover Hinduism. I found a comforting song that the chorus would repeat Hara Hara Mahadev, still not knowing what it meant. Then I came across a picture of Lord Shiva, and knew right away that he was what I had always been looking for. When I looked closer at the picture, I noticed the caption underneath said Hara Hara Mahadeva, just like from the song that had brought me comfort! After that I went to the bookstore to look for some books about Hinduism and Lord Shiva, and while I was browsing a song came on in the store that caught my attention, and I asked the clerk what was playing, and the song was actually called "Om Namah Shivaya" from a reggae around the world CD. Hearing that in a large chain bookstore where I live is highly unlikely! But it was a sign to me that I was on the right path.

Another time I was missing my daughters very badly.. When I split up from their father, he was able to support them and I wasn't, and so they lived with him, and they live several states away. It had been very long since I had seen them, and was very painful for me, and for them. Again I prayed to Lord Shiva, to help me find a way to be a part of their lives more often. Just a couple of days after that, I got a phone call that they would be coming to town in the next couple of weeks, and their father had decided to bring them and wanted to do so more often now!!

The most recent time God has answered my prayers, I was struggling with my finances. I am a single mother and support my four year old son, and work full time, and don't have any family that can help me in times of trouble. I had thought of taking another job, but couldn't work it out and still work my full time job and take care of my son. I was having a hard time making ends meet, and I prayed to Lord Shiva to help me to find ways to live within my means so that I could better take care of my son. Shortly thereafter, a coworker approached me, and asked me if I wanted to work for her husband, updating his real estate listings online. It would be completely from home, about 15-20 hours a month at a very good hourly wage. Again my prayers had been answered, and the solution was so much better than anything I could have orchestrated on my own.

These are just a few of the ways that god has worked in my life. I have found that any time I am struggling and in pain, I share my struggles and pain with God and it is lessened. I am very humbled and grateful for the way Lord Shiva has worked in my life so far.

Pranam.

NayaSurya
27 May 2014, 08:28 AM
For the record, Isavasya has a better grip of the English than I do.

Been here a long time, but it's been a long time.:p

Yes, Mahayogi! The ultimate example.

This is who comes when I pray.

There have been so many times in my life that I could say were Divine intervention.

The biggest, many of us share as a point of commonality amongst ourselves.

We could all be driving SUV's with an A-symmetrical hair cut...toting our 2.5 children back and forth to scouts and soccer practice. Jim is always at work...and when he's not...you can find him drinking beer in the man cave with his friends. Jenny takes care of their kids...finally gets them to sleep and spends the night with a bottle of wine and the Twilight series of books.

Just this weekend, as we camped with the children I sat beside our pool in our neighborhood and watched them.

It's the train upon the track...thousands and thousands of people...all so very very similar...and yet none of them aware of it. All of their stories playing out in the same direction...all of them, the same.

Yet, by some Grace of Bhagavan, here we are...sitting in the grass watching them speed on.

We share that you know...even the native Hindu...born into this Truth, not by chance, but by the Grace of Him.

Our very location upon such a forum is yet another nudge.

Just knowing Mahadevas name is the greatest gift in my life.

I have been a year healthy, after the B-12 thing...I could never imagine my life returning to normal (well my normal anyway :p ). But, here I am, and not only did I retain my health...but my mind is working better than it has since I was 18. It's absolutely astonishing. The other day someone was asking what a word was in a book. They began to spell it and half way through I had to correct them because it was pronounced very differently than they were saying. It was the French word, vichyssoise. Not only did I know how to say the word, I knew what it was.

Also, I could remember the moment I learned it back in 1984

I went from not remembering where i was or what i was doing to remembering everything!

Now, normally i wouldn't care about gifts from Mahadeva...i mean to say...He is like a ROCKSTAR to me... He is everything.

Being a "rockstar", you are bound to have a lot of good time charlies/ groupies always following you around.

But, the moment you don't give them items or you lose popular favor...they disappear.

I don't want Him to think i only Love Him because He is famous...i want Him to know...i love Him...even before He got famous...before He was rich..:p

I want Him to see...truly know...that i Love Him, not for what He does for me...or could do. But, because i was born to do so.

Normally i try to not be too excited when i see things turning by His Beloved Hand. But, the brain...really is a "by His Grace alone" thing.

In this race...we are often, only as good as the horse we ride upon...

As a woman in labor...in tremendous pain...who completely loses her mind and begins to curse out the doctor...only to come back to herself when the contraction subsides...and apologize...

I must concede, that our interface within this realm is extremely crucial to our ability to shine through and manifest ourselves completely.

The less obstacles in our way, the more that is possible.

yajvan
27 May 2014, 12:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



When God helped you - Share your experiences if any.

For some reason the human experience is looking for some fantastic thing to occur to them to say, oh yes there is the hand of god.

Yet I submit to you, tell me of one thing that does not contain the influence of the Supreme? How many thousands of processes go on inside of one's body , all automatically and we think nothing of it. I ask you to try and manage the digestion an apple. You chew and swallow, then from there it is all automatic.
Look at the millions of items that stay aligned in the cosmos... all within the laws of nature ( another name for His grace). Look at the millions of species that live on this planet - all taken care of within the enumerable laws of nature.
There is not one grain of sand that moves in this cosmos ( let alone the oceans and beaches) that is outside of His Being; not one blade of grass moves without His knowing. Yet we look for some cosmic event to happen to us.

We are a bundle of the 5 elements ( tattva-s) and yet we are able to imbibe consciousness within this structure. Let's take those same 5 elements and what ever you wish to add and see if we can produce a thinking, growing, aware Being with 100's of facial expressions that reflect emotions; that can have consciousness actually expand, that can in fact regenerate itself. Would not this in and of itself quality for the most miraculous thing ever? But we still wish to see His hand do more.


http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/images/hs-2012-10-c-web.jpg

iti śivaṁ

Believer
27 May 2014, 01:19 PM
Namaste,


For the record, Isavasya has a better grip of the English than I do.The intent was to give an easy way out of the conflicting/inconsistent statements made - may or may not believe in God, don't care whether He exists or not, but this one time, His direct intervention saved my life. Many times it takes a second read of comments made and familiarity with the source they came from before any sense can be made out of them.

Be well!

Pranam.

NayaSurya
27 May 2014, 02:40 PM
Understood, Believerji <3 <3


...and often our beliefs in God and also our situation here can be very contradictory.

Here I have all this work to do...take care of this, help with that...try to change this to make it better...do do move move move...work work and work some more.

But, yet I have my whole insides saying.... be still...just be still.

As a householder, I must always choose the first.

I am constantly teetering between an active God which brought my children into this world, who wants me to be a good Mother...and the fact all of this...every bit of it...is just One.

Yajvan, I feel that way too. In everything I see the proof.

I know it will sound silly, but I could spend an hour observing strawberries...or a leaf on a tree. All of it, truly amazing evidence of His Hand.

I think though there are times in our life where we can see the ship turn so steeply...the change in direction...so drastic...that it gives us courage to think that...yes...He's out there....watching this all.

I have seen 8 children brought into this world, may seem so mundane to some ...but it will always be an amazing miracle to this fool.

Just knowing you all...was also such a gift.

isavasya
27 May 2014, 03:12 PM
Namaste,

The intent was to give an easy way out of the conflicting/inconsistent statements made - may or may not believe in God, don't care whether He exists or not, but this one time, His direct intervention saved my life. Many times it takes a second read of comments made and familiarity with the source they came from before any sense can be made out of them.

Be well!

Pranam.

Namaskar,

My English is not really up to standard. I don't mind admitting that.

There was no inconsistency in my statements. Either you read it in a hurry or may be the heading of thread could have caused confusion.

His direct intervention saved my life.I claimed exactly opposite of that. I wrote Obviously I don't claim that it was a miracle or I escaped death because Shiva saved me.

I also wrote the following line - I do like to say that in depressing times God is a great comfort for devotees.

My Grandfather went blind in his 60s. He suffered from diabetes, high blood pressure and other aliments. But he was a very devout vaishnavite. He kept singing 'Shri krishna govind hare murari ....Hey nath narayan vasudeva'. His devotion to God gave him strength to pass his life in joy irrespective of all his sufferings. That's why I implied that irrespective of the fact that God intervenes or not - God is always a great comfort for devotees. :) As for me, I don't require anything of God. I just have a deep and unending love for Uma Maheshwara.

Nayasurya - It's nice to know your thoughts, sister. You have been posting much less frequently of late.

NayaSurya
29 May 2014, 08:17 AM
One of the first songs I learned to sing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrhWW5q3mgE&feature=kp


They say that whatever we think or say is never new. In fact every bit of it dreamed up by Beloved before we even spawned!
So...

Close your eyes...

Sitting within your very own heart center you will find Him.

The journey only takes a second...and He is always waiting.

In the space beyond Kala ...of timelessness...there is no wait.

Don't be afraid to dream Him...the power of our ability to conjure Him in such a way is the magic.

They say whatever you can think of...already exists...so always be sure to think of something goodly. <3

We can not ignore that this place we dwell...it must be important or it would never have come to be...and that our location here means we were meant to do something within this space.

We can not know the reason...but we must play along <3

P.S. The words sung by a woman at the end...make me always cry....even since the beginning...and I would be so grateful if anyone knew what she was saying to please let me know...it's very important to me. Much love <3

Anirudh
30 May 2014, 04:06 AM
When God helped you - Share your experiences if any.


I can't pinpoint a particular incident or an event because Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu stays with me all the time. I can see him, feel him and can do many things with him. When I am angry I scold him, some times even slap him for troubling me. He is my friend, he is my guide...

He is very much here silently watching me as tears roll down my cheeks...

Believer
30 May 2014, 10:12 AM
Namaste,


.....Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu stays with me all the time....
When I am angry I scold him, some times even slap him for troubling me.
Really?

Pranam.

Anirudh
30 May 2014, 08:06 PM
Really?
Pranam.


I havent given false information....
Do you think i will get something by giving false information...?

Do you believe that HE exist or do you feel / see HIS presence? I opine that feeling is different from believing.

Hope you would reply :-)

aupmanyav
28 June 2014, 08:04 AM
When I am angry I scold him, some times even slap him for troubling me. He is my friend, he is my guide ..I think, he would be better without friends like you. You are a grown up man. And what will happen if he slaps you back. Go and get yourself checked. :mad:

ameyAtmA
30 June 2014, 01:20 AM
~~~~~

renuka
25 July 2014, 08:59 PM
Namaste,

There have been many instances in life where one can say that God helped us..but the fact remains that what seemed like an answered prayer is actually our Karmic entitlement for God always remains a witness.

But this does not mean that those who are not saved by any miracle are do not have the Karmic entitlement to be "saved" but its just that their Karmic entitlement differs.

When we feel that what we wanted happened or we were saved from any mishap etc..we feel God saved us and thank God for it.

But what about those who dont get saved? Does that mean God did not save them?

Not possible isnt it?Cos that would make God pick and choose and that cant be because God does not get involved in what our Karma has ordained.

The God Factor keeps our mind relaxed and in other words God is our anti depressant.

The only way to find out how much we need God is to put ourselves to test to just not think of God or pray for a stipulated period of time and face everything without even calling the name of God in our mind.

I had done that before long long ago..totally stopped formal prayers or any reciting any mantra or even calling our the name of God in the mind.

Now this was not easy because we are used to thinking of God or humming some bhajan or two.

Things were not too bad but when faced with some adversity and a real major problem..that time I had to restrain the mind and tell myself "Today you are NOT going to call for God..face this yourself because the Atma is essentially the same"

So I faced the problems..stressful no doubt but managed to face it and it was no easy problem which I faced....it was indeed a real major problem

Then I realized that we do have inner strength that we usually do not realize and praying to God actually makes us relax and when we pray we share all our ups and downs with God and God becomes our Psychiatrist and the Anti Depressant.

When we take prayer for granted and face life..we do not realize this fact..but when we put ourselves through a test like what I did we value prayer more.

I dont recommend trying this unless one is really ready to face all problems without even uttering the name of God even once.

But its worth a try..

Viraja
31 July 2014, 07:25 PM
Namaste,

After thinking and re-thinking for a very long time whether to post this info or not, I finally decided to post...

About 4 or 5 yrs ago, there was a phase when I thought I was 'spiritually gifted' (with visions, and 'trikaala gnaana'). I was actually blessed with 1 vision in my life, just prior to this phase... and this 1 experience had rendered me as much fantasy about 'being spiritually gifted'. (There was actually a whole afternoon I spent re-arranging every single picture in my puja, because I thought Sri Raghavendra Swami was communicating with me showing symbols in my mind's eye...).

While I was in this phase, I grouped and categorized gods. There were 'good gods' and 'bad gods' to me... I am not going to name any god that I so categorized but his info is crucial to what I am going to write, thus mentioning about it.

Based on my own categorization of good gods and bad gods, I committed one grave mistake - I wrecked the pictures and idols I had of all 'bad gods' - including the picture of a female goddess who actually comes to be worshiped popularly down South India, who is also one of the 10 Mahavidyas.

After this wrecking incident, soon I came to my senses, I was not given any more visions and I realized I am not having 'trikaala gnana' and that I was an ordinary mortal. So I became normal again but I also forgot about the above incident completely.

Just 6 months ago, through some sources (who did not know about how I had wrecked the gods/goddesses pictures) divined and told me that I had done some grave mistake to this above goddess due to which she had inflicted curse of very severe nature to my family, especially to my son. I panicked and narrated what I had done. The remedy was to continue worshiping Sri Rama, my ishta-devata.

So I sincerely prayed to Shri Rama for redeeming me of my sin and to request me a way out of the situation.

I just came to know that this situation had been remedied.

Thus I know that god indeed saves. (I am, but very surprised and shaken by the anger of the female deity who inflicted curse on me, though).

Btw: Owing to the nature of the spiritual messages involved/divinations, etc involved in the above message, I cannot disclose the details to anyone, even through PM, unfortunately.

ameyAtmA
09 August 2014, 11:00 PM
Namaste


But what about those who dont get saved? Does that mean God did not save them?


No. It means they did not turn to Him. God does not intervene unless
a) the devotee cries / reaches out to Him, surrenders, depends on Him
b) the devotee has a prior personal relationship with Him which He decides to revive at a certain critical point although the devotee had forgotten [in this life].

All others are doing their independent thing and He gives them the free will and freedom to continue.

jaya govinda rAdhA-ramaNa
jaya jaya KRshNa hare ~ S ~ S
jaya gopAla hare ~ S ~ S ~ S...

saswathy
10 August 2014, 01:43 AM
Dear friends,
To be precise and frank , all the various shapes , names and forms of Gods are manifestations of our thoughts.There is one supreme energy which we all call paramathma because of want of any other expression .All the souls are part and parcel of that supreme soul , but manifested in different species , given different roles and duties and patterns of life with attendant results which we call karmic results and which in turn lead to different patterns of life.Thus it is an unending circle which makes rounds continuously .There is no begining and no end and it is eternal circle till the realisation comes to the soul and merges with that supreme power which happens after millions of births.Since the soul is eternal , it knows all the solutions to the problems and puts the solutions to those problems when the need arises unknowingly and unwittingly ,and comes out of the problems . Sometimes a soul helps another soul in some other form which we think divine grace . But God , the supreme power is a mere spectator. It is our trust , our faith , our dedication ,our contemplation and concentration which gives results .To that extent we can ascribe the grace to the supreme power and to ordinary mortals it is rather difficult to concentrate on nothingness and there is nothing wrong in visualising God or Goddess in some form and name .Ultimately it is our soul which is helping us and which is being tapped in times of crisis .

saswathy
10 August 2014, 02:14 AM
Dear Viraja,
I understand what exactly you underwent. But most of the gods and Goddesses are beings like us or were beings like us before reaching that post .Some are created ,some are promoted some are assigned , some are deputed to those posts .There are millions of universes filled with millions of planets and beings and some are superior and some are inferior to us in intelligence ,power and capabilities .Many of them ,though have done great thapas and have attained higher status , could not actually shed their weaknesses totally , as far as arishad vargas are concerned .Such entities could give curses . But God supreme is a thathwa and energy and would not resort to that step. But then again , we pray all the so called Gods or Goddesses for kamyas.When we do sadhana for the love of universal soul, with out any expectation , we do not attract any ill will or curse .All relationships are of karmic nature and each individual has his own or her own karmic
residue and one soul can't create or remove any new karma to them just by praying or resorting to any omissions or commissions of religious rituals , unless it is preordained .

ameyAtmA
10 August 2014, 03:39 PM
Namaste

all the various shapes , names and forms of Gods are manifestations of our thoughts.


most of the gods and Goddesses are beings like us or were beings like us before reaching that post .Some are created ,some are promoted some are assigned , some are deputed to those posts .There are millions of universes filled with millions of planets and beings and some are superior and some are inferior to us in intelligence ,power and capabilities .Many of them ,though have done great thapas and have attained higher status

Well... there it is. Quote 1 and then Quote 2.

Shri KRshNa is my-Self. This is by experience. However, He is not necessarily just a manifestation of thoughts which come from the mind. It is the other way around. The thoughts are a manifestation of His KRpA and guidance from within as paramAtmA, antaryAmI.

Also, now I see two consecutive statements by the same person that on the one hand say "Gods" are manifestations of thoughts and on the other hand, these same "gods" are living beings like us who have reached higher planes of existence.

This could be interpreted as
a) at the level of microcosm
b) at the level of macrocosm

Even so, we cannot discard one for the other, and more importantly, say that our thoughts are the driver or creator of these beings.


But God supreme is a thathwa and energy and would not resort to that step
That is true. That param tattva, param dhAm, param gati, paramAnanda, param sthiti, paramAtmA, paramAnanda-dAyak is Shri KRshNa (Vishnu/Narayan/RAm) to many of us.


nanhe-se kanhaiyA ke nanhe nanhe paanv
nanhe painjaniyA se zume sArA gokula gAon...

nandabAbA ki ungli pakadke chale
aur maiya ke anchal acharne lage
kabhi godi chalne ko machalne lage
kabhi haTh karke paiyA paTakane lage

runzun karke painjaniyA
kAnha chalne lage, kAnha chalne lage...

saswathy
10 August 2014, 09:40 PM
Dear friend ,
The two statements are not exactly contradictory. Both are true . The
Gods and goddesses are the manifestations of our thoughts in so far as their powers are concerned . They are the beings of other lokas as far as their existence is concerned . Since they have attained certain powers with their thaposhakthi , they can give some boons which is limited .Since they are the residents of different planes their existence is a fact . In some cases , they are created for a specific purpose and they have more power when compared to other beings . But what really matters is there is a law governing the deeds and consequences which is universal and irrevocable. If revocation is possible Krishna would not have kept quite when Abhimanyu was attacked by all the elders in the battle . Same way all the puranas are replete with stories of cause and effect . It is not the vengence or injustice on the part of the supreme Antharyami .It is the process of correction and betterment.How ever close a person is , however effort is put by the near ones , whatever remedial measures taken by any body ,
the law of cause and effect can't be changed . It is a mere fallacy that something can be changed .All these remedial measures , prayers
and pleas give some relief and solace. The same way a deed committed by some does not reflect on the life of some other person even if it is own kith and kin.Life is not a Hindi movie where a a song and Harathi , just wipes out all the sorrow . Coming to puranas , we have to take the essence of the story and learn a lesson of what to do and not to dos .They are the stories of lore , which reflect the soceital ,traditional ,and customary trends of those times .We can't and should not take them with blind belief .I
strongly believe the theory of law of retribution and what ever one wants one has to give that to others .

renuka
10 August 2014, 09:56 PM
Namaste,

After thinking and re-thinking for a very long time whether to post this info or not, I finally decided to post...

About 4 or 5 yrs ago, there was a phase when I thought I was 'spiritually gifted' (with visions, and 'trikaala gnaana'). I was actually blessed with 1 vision in my life, just prior to this phase... and this 1 experience had rendered me as much fantasy about 'being spiritually gifted'. (There was actually a whole afternoon I spent re-arranging every single picture in my puja, because I thought Sri Raghavendra Swami was communicating with me showing symbols in my mind's eye...).

While I was in this phase, I grouped and categorized gods. There were 'good gods' and 'bad gods' to me... I am not going to name any god that I so categorized but his info is crucial to what I am going to write, thus mentioning about it.

Based on my own categorization of good gods and bad gods, I committed one grave mistake - I wrecked the pictures and idols I had of all 'bad gods' - including the picture of a female goddess who actually comes to be worshiped popularly down South India, who is also one of the 10 Mahavidyas.

After this wrecking incident, soon I came to my senses, I was not given any more visions and I realized I am not having 'trikaala gnana' and that I was an ordinary mortal. So I became normal again but I also forgot about the above incident completely.

Just 6 months ago, through some sources (who did not know about how I had wrecked the gods/goddesses pictures) divined and told me that I had done some grave mistake to this above goddess due to which she had inflicted curse of very severe nature to my family, especially to my son. I panicked and narrated what I had done. The remedy was to continue worshiping Sri Rama, my ishta-devata.

So I sincerely prayed to Shri Rama for redeeming me of my sin and to request me a way out of the situation.

I just came to know that this situation had been remedied.

Thus I know that god indeed saves. (I am, but very surprised and shaken by the anger of the female deity who inflicted curse on me, though).

Btw: Owing to the nature of the spiritual messages involved/divinations, etc involved in the above message, I cannot disclose the details to anyone, even through PM, unfortunately.

Dear Vraja..Namaste,

Frankly speaking can you actually wreck any form of divinity?

Divinity is beyond praise and blame.

There is no such thing as a Goddess inflicting any curse just because a picture of hers was wrecked..the picture you wrecked is an artist impression of God and what you wrecked is your own emotions.

God is not so "sensitive" as to get all worked up and curse a human for wrecking a picture.

So dont worry..its just that you needed time to decide what you really wanted in life.

It was a transient state of confusion and nothing more.

The danger of wrecking any picture is just injury to sharp edges of glass splinters..that is the only risk.

Whatever said and done..even if we feel we had sinned why run to God and ask forgiveness?

That shows lack of courage..one should be brave enough to face consequences if one feels one has sinned.

Committing an error and then asking for forgiveness makes us humans take God for granted and keep on committing errors with the confidence that God will bail us out.

God is not our criminal lawyer to bail us out each time we feel we had done wrong.

One should be brave enough to learn to fight our own faults ourselves without asking for forgiveness.

We should learn to pay the price for our actions even if it means a stint in "hell".

The Brave never ask for forgiveness.

ameyAtmA
10 August 2014, 10:40 PM
Namaste,

I agree that we have to live out our karma and prarabdha, and in fact devotees understand this most, and will not ask Bhagvan to alleviate their karma. They are the ones that are nishkAm (without expectations).


Gods and goddesses are the manifestations of our thoughts in so far as their powers are concerned . They are the beings of other lokas as far as their existence is concerned .
Yes, this is what I refered to as a) microcosm b) macrocosm above or you could say adhyAmta and adhidaiva.

However, rather than our thoughts being the source of divine manifestations, I would say VAsudev -- the highest tattva is the source of the thoughts.

BhAgvat also says

inside us , reside
paramAtmA = VAsudev
divine ahamkAr = sankarshaN
mind = pradyumna
intellect = aniruddha

and other dev-devatA preside over various senses.

-----
Now coming to suffering as a karmic reaction. What Hari takes away (harate) is the misery out of it. The karmic reaction will have to be borne, but by the time Hari arrives, the individual entity gives almost no importance to what was troublesome :)

SAnkhya says purush is responsible for experiencing happiness and sorrow when entangled with prakRti. Hari takes this dvandva (duality) away for the devotee -- sometimes so gently, behind the scenes, without their realizing.

This is why the devotees since ancient times sail through painful events while maintaining their joy for Shri Hari.

Hari's flute - the plane takes off without their realizing it.

I am sure you agree with this :)

praNAm

ameyAtmA
10 August 2014, 11:31 PM
Further, in the sAnidhya (under the protective wing) of Shri Hari, the devotee avoids unwise actions that may sow the seeds for new karma. They become nishkAm and their vAsanA (desires) taper off, like the poisonous fangs of the snake being removed.

ameyAtmA
11 August 2014, 12:46 AM
As for Gajendra. VidyAdhar, ShishupAl, RAvaN, AhilyA, their time had arrived -- their auspicious bhAgya (good fortune) of meeting the Lord face to face and being liberated at His hands.

saswathy
11 August 2014, 02:00 AM
Dear friend ,
there is time and place for everything and the drama unfolds when the time comes . Antharyami is just a spectator , a witness for all actions . Where utmost devotion is present he stands by the side of devotee and gives strength to face the ordeal .When I mentioned about Gods , I mean lessor gods and deities not a Antharyami -- Supreme God.

devotee
11 August 2014, 11:53 PM
Namaste,



Whatever said and done..even if we feel we had sinned why run to God and ask forgiveness?
That shows lack of courage..one should be brave enough to face consequences if one feels one has sinned.
Committing an error and then asking for forgiveness makes us humans take God for granted and keep on committing errors with the confidence that God will bail us out.
God is not our criminal lawyer to bail us out each time we feel we had done wrong.
One should be brave enough to learn to fight our own faults ourselves without asking for forgiveness.
We should learn to pay the price for our actions even if it means a stint in "hell".
The Brave never ask for forgiveness.

This is a dangerous advice, imho. ;)

Prayer and asking for forgiveness does help. It is not that there is no one there to listen to your prayers. The intensity of Karma can be alleviated to a great extent with prayer and asking for forgiveness. The effects of grace can be dramatic. Please refer Bhagwad Gita where God says that by having unfailing devotion to God, one can get rid of bondage of Karmas even if he may be the worst of sinners.

Please don't make yourself suffer thinking that it is all due to your Karma and you must bear the suffering caused by it. If you want to suffer, it is perfectly OK. No one can have any issues with that. However, there is a way out. You can always ask for grace of God/Guru to alleviate your sufferings. The grace can change the course of Karmic effects. Karmas are like seeds which sprout at the right environment and time.

Prayers can attract the effects of your good Karmas, Prayers can lessen the intensity of effects of bad Karmas, Prayers can attract grace of God/Guru in spite of whatever Karmas are due to sprout in your life. We have infinite Karmas seeds stored in our sub-conscious mind which gives rise to many possibilities in our life. There is no need that we must suffer all the Karmas. Then we are in an endless cycle of sufferings. The Karmas can be completely annihilated with rising of JnAna and instead of trying to work out our inexhaustible Karmas we must concentrate on getting rid of the clutches of Karmas by proceeding on the path of JnAna.

If you can manage your life without God/Guru's grace ... it is fine. However, it is not wise. When you can get help from them then why not ask for it ? Why ashamed of asking from God/Guru ?

OM

renuka
12 August 2014, 07:21 AM
Why ashamed of asking from God/Guru ?

OM
Namaste Ji,

Its not being ashamed..its loving God enough to not take Him for granted and rather suffer the consequences of any wrong act done by me instead of seeking forgiveness and be bailed out.

Even in the court of Law we respect the Judge and face the sentence.

I have met many people in life who have said they regret doing this before and wish God would forgive them and seek forgiveness..but for me I feel the opposite..When I look back in life there were surely some stuff I did which I feel I should not have done..but I never seek forgiveness for it because whatever done is done.
It is my fault..so its only fair I face the consequences boldly as not to repeat it again.With the option of seeking for forgiveness one has the tendency to repeat the offending act.

There is no shame involved if a offender accepts his sentence.

saswathy
12 August 2014, 09:56 PM
Dear friend ,
I view the issue in a different way .It is not asking forgiveness but is surrendering .Bhakthi means overflowing love and a love means overflowing bhakthi . When you love your personal god , ( any form of the supreme anatha chithanyam) you surrender everything to him or her with out any holds barred . There are no rights or wrongs which are subject to human fallacies .You have to accept the verdict given , taking it as his wish .But definitely he stands by you , while facing the result , when total surrender is made.

devotee
12 August 2014, 11:40 PM
Namaste,



Its not being ashamed..its loving God enough to not take Him for granted and rather suffer the consequences of any wrong act done by me instead of seeking forgiveness and be bailed out.

Even in the court of Law we respect the Judge and face the sentence.

If you treat God a a Judge and for passing judgement, He/She will behave accordingly. There are better relationships in store which are more helpful like Father-Son or daughter/Mother-Son or daughter. I try to see God as my mother. Now, mother can be judge but may help me out too if I am stuck. The relationship with God is not dry like in a court of Law.


I have met many people in life who have said they regret doing this before and wish God would forgive them and seek forgiveness..but for me I feel the opposite..When I look back in life there were surely some stuff I did which I feel I should not have done..but I never seek forgiveness for it because whatever done is done.

That is perfectly your choice. God is there to help you out of your mistakes but if you are not interested, God won't mind. Please remember what Lord has assured : "Aham tvam sarvapaapebhyoh, Mokshisyami mA suchah". And still you want to go alone then there is no issue : Best of luck !


It is my fault..so its only fair I face the consequences boldly as not to repeat it again.With the option of seeking for forgiveness one has the tendency to repeat the offending act.

It is entirely upto you. If you don't want God's help, it is perfectly OK.


There is no shame involved if a offender accepts his sentence.

No. You are misquoting my use of the word. I said, "Why ashamed of asking from God/Guru ?".

OM

renuka
13 August 2014, 01:36 AM
[QUOTE=devotee;119098]Namaste,



If you treat God a a Judge and for passing judgement, He/She will behave accordingly. There are better relationships in store which are more helpful like Father-Son or daughter/Mother-Son or daughter. I try to see God as my mother. Now, mother can be judge but may help me out too if I am stuck. The relationship with God is not dry like in a court of Law.




/QUOTE]
Namaste Ji,

Nope! I dont treat God as a Judge.

In fact I never wrote anywhere that I treat God as a Judge.

May be I should have been more specific.What I meant is The Judge is our own actions and reactions in the cycle called Karma.

On a personal note I prefer not to humanize God..I dont see God as mother or father or any relative because what do I really know about God as to give Him names?

When I was in India last week I had met a person who had an interesting conversation with me.

She asked me "Are you religious/spiritual?"

My reply to her was :

"Its actually very hard for a person to self proclaim he/she is religious or spiritual as its open to interpretation..but personally I feel self transformation is what that is needed more than external worship...I prefer to subscribe to the concept of an Impersonal God which is all pervading as in Universal Consciousness"

Then she said "So I believe you are not religious or spiritual"

I smiled to myself wondering why she actually came to that conclusion.May be she felt my perception was too dry??LOL

I feel many people think that by not personalizing God its almost impossible to "connect" with God.

There is no harm personalizing God if one feels its fine but to feel that as you said "There are better relationships in store which are more helpful like Father-Son or daughter/Mother-Son or daughter" makes it sound that we are always trying to fit God into a mental impression of our mind.

When we try to make God into some relationship we are comfortable with..we subconsciously "limit" God ....when will we ever allow God to be God in His Glory to us?

Why subject God to the limitations of our mind?

Its humanly impossible to comprehend God in our mind so the best is total surrender and live life as it comes and accept what comes along the way be it good or bad and let the Karmic cycle be the judge and we accept the actions and reactions as lessons of live learnt in the physical plane.

Viraja
13 August 2014, 05:05 PM
Dear friends,

I wanted to share my 2 cents on this debate - whether one can ask for forgiveness from the lord or one has to face consequences of his actions by himself. Surely, being brave to face consequences of one's misdeeds is commendable. But there is one caveat with this approach. We are all a mixture of Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas gunas. Our misdeeds are either due to rajas or tamas. It is said Rajas and Tamas are hard to conquer by oneself and one needs the helping hand of god to get rid of their influence, which is the reason why anyone needs to practice bhakti yoga, jnana yoga, etc. Therefore one who does not ask for lord's forgiveness is supposedly taking a vow to go on their own, and this does not necessarily translate into a solid means for curing their rajas and tamas - surely, one would face karmic reactions, like Renuka ji said, even falling into the hell for instance, which may ultimately rid one's rajas and tamas, but why all this suffering? Instead the wise will surrender unto the lord, ask for his mercy and carry-on the god-given good life in service of the Lord and service of humanity. The atma that belongs to each of us isn't necessarily ours, it belongs to the mighty paramatma, therefore subjecting it to undue suffering is a sin, which will be evaluated much as causing suffering to others. This is why, 'Atma hatya' or suicide is wrong and bad.

Imagine how painful a broken family is to the little children, a parent deceased with Cancer to the child and other kith and kin, and other tragedies in life? They not only cause harm to us, they also interact with other's karmas and their well-being in a negative way. A prudent and wise man therefore will not resort to causing suffering to his atma, but to nourish it with bhagavath bhakti and asking for his forgiveness.

I would like to end the note by citing the example given by the great Adi Shankara in his Lakshmi Narasimha Karavalamba Stotram:

Samsara koopam adhi ghora Magadha moolam,
Samprapya dukha satha sarpa samakulasya,
Dheenasya Deva krupana padamagadasya,
Lakshmi Nrsimha Mama Dehi Karavalambam. 4

Oh Great God Lakshmi Nrsimha,
I have reached the very dangerous and deep,
Bottom of the well of day to day life,
And also being troubled by hundreds,
Of miseries which are like serpents,
And am really miserable and have,
Reached the state of wretchedness and so,
Please give me the protection of your hands.

Samsara Sagara vishala karala kala,
Nakra graham grasana nigraha vigrahasya,
Vyagrasya raga rasanormini peedithasya,
Lakshmi Nrsimha Mama Dehi Karavalambam. 5

Oh Great God Lakshmi Nrsimha,
I have reached this wide unfathomable ocean of day to day life,
And I have been caught by black deadly,
Crocodiles called time which are killing me
And I am also afflicted by waves of passion,
And attachments to pleasures like taste and so,
Please give me the protection of your hands.

Samasra Vrukshamagha bheeja manantha karma,
Sakha satham karana pathramananga pushpam,
Aroohasya dukha phalitham pathatho dayalo,
Lakshmi Nrsimha Mama Dehi Karavalambam. 6


Oh Great God Lakshmi Nrsimha,
I have climbed the tree of worldly life,
Which grew from the seed of great sin,
Which has hundreds of branches of past karmas,
Which has leaves which are parts of my body,
Which has flowers which are the result of Venus,
And which has fruits called sorrow,
But I am falling down from it fast and so,
Please give me the protection of your hands.

Thanks and regards.

devotee
13 August 2014, 11:45 PM
Namaste,


I prefer to subscribe to the concept of an Impersonal God which is all pervading as in Universal Consciousness"

I feel many people think that by not personalizing God its almost impossible to "connect" with God.

There is no harm personalizing God if one feels its fine but to feel that as you said "There are better relationships in store which are more helpful like Father-Son or daughter/Mother-Son or daughter" makes it sound that we are always trying to fit God into a mental impression of our mind.

When we try to make God into some relationship we are comfortable with..we subconsciously "limit" God ....when will we ever allow God to be God in His Glory to us?

Why subject God to the limitations of our mind?


I think we have reached to the point where this discussion can be laid to rest. However, I would clarify something :

a) In whatever way we think of God, even Impersonal Universal Consciousness, we can't avoid bringing God to limitations of mind. The way to God which is beyond mind goes through mind.
b) God is Universal Consciousness ... pervading everything and every point in this universe but it doesn't mean that God cannot act as Mother or Father or Guru or Judge or whatever. That is the beauty of this state of pure consciousness. It becomes as He/She/It is worshiped as (refer Mudgala Upanishad).

In fact, mother needn't be a sari-clad, bangles/sindur wearing/long-haired lady ... it is a game of Consciousness and thought-waves arising in it. Our mind is individualised Consciousness with limitations of seeing in gross and subtle aspects. It has to interact with Universal Consciousness. This must be carefully understood. When I am trying to contact God ... it is not my body ... it is not male ... it is not human being ... it is individualised consciousness made up of Manas-Chitta and Ahamakaar (which is nothing but in essence Universal consciousness alone) which is trying to contact God. If I call you my sister, it is actually your individualised consciousness that I am addressing to. When I address you and I successfully make you feel that you are my sister, you will start having a feeling of soft corner for me that a sister has for her brother. This happens in case of interaction between Individualised Consciousness and Universal Consciousness too.

In school of our Guru, we are taught to treat God as Father/Mother ... better as Mother, as Mother is less demanding than father. See, in Bhagwad Gita Lord Krishna has said that all types of feelings that we have come from God alone. Please think .... where from our feeling of treating our children as Father/Mother comes ? Where from our feeling of treating our spouses as we treat them comes ? It is all coming from the same Source. Our source is the Source of all our feelings too. We can't generate what already is not there in the Source. The feeling of human relations is no exception.

You may check what Gurus of other schools say. :)

OM

renuka
14 August 2014, 04:25 AM
In school of our Guru, we are taught to treat God as Father/Mother ... better as Mother, as Mother is less demanding than father. See, in Bhagwad Gita Lord Krishna has said that all types of feelings that we have come from God alone. Please think .... where from our feeling of treating our children as Father/Mother comes ? Where from our feeling of treating our spouses as we treat them comes ? It is all coming from the same Source. Our source is the Source of all our feelings too. We can't generate what already is not there in the Source. The feeling of human relations is no exception.

You may check what Gurus of other schools say. :)

OM


Dear Sir,

Namaste,

To me I feel the "relationship" with God can not be defined in words.

Whatever we feel for example if we feel we take God like Mother or Father is the product of the conditioning of the mind.

Just as you said that your Guru told you to take God as Mother..it was your Guru who conditioned your mind to do so.

All mental concoction of God is only possible with the aid of the mind.

The mind by nature is self limiting.

In the purest state, the mind (which is a relay of thoughts) ceases to exist and God becomes a "Presence".

This "Presence" is neither Father nor Mother nor anyone..for God is verily God.

devotee
16 August 2014, 11:44 PM
Namaste,



To me I feel the "relationship" with God can not be defined in words.

Whatever we feel for example if we feel we take God like Mother or Father is the product of the conditioning of the mind.

Just as you said that your Guru told you to take God as Mother..it was your Guru who conditioned your mind to do so.

All mental concoction of God is only possible with the aid of the mind.

The mind by nature is self limiting.

Mind has to play a great role in taking us beyond mind. The whole essence of Yoga is for controlling mind-waves. That has to be done with the help of mind.


In the purest state, the mind (which is a relay of thoughts) ceases to exist and God becomes a "Presence".

This "Presence" is neither Father nor Mother nor anyone..for God is verily God.

"Presence" is also a mental concoction alone.

OM

devotee
16 August 2014, 11:52 PM
Namaste,

In one way, I think, may be, what Renuka ji has offered can help us in creating strength within. There is another aspect to it also. Some seekers don't pray for their own well-being. Why ? They feel so much closeness with God that it makes them feel awkward to "tell Him what he already is aware of". God is omniscient and caring and He knows what we seek.

However, Prayer is a powerful tool and has been advised in scriptures and by great Self-realised souls. We should not undermine its strength. I don't know of any pramANa which forbids us from praying to God and seeking His help, when required.

OM

renuka
17 August 2014, 09:05 PM
Namaste,

In one way, I think, may be, what Renuka ji has offered can help us in creating strength within. There is another aspect to it also. Some seekers don't pray for their own well-being. Why ? They feel so much closeness with God that it makes them feel awkward to "tell Him what he already is aware of". God is omniscient and caring and He knows what we seek.

However, Prayer is a powerful tool and has been advised in scriptures and by great Self-realised souls. We should not undermine its strength. I don't know of any pramANa which forbids us from praying to God and seeking His help, when required.

OM


Namaste Ji,

Not praying for "help" is not actually undermining the strength of prayer.

Let me share a recent personal experience.

Some time back my son was admitted in the hospital and he almost landed in Intensive Care Unit.

My parents were praying very hard for his recovery.

As a doctor and mother..I was very concerned and at the same time worried.

My parents were telling me to keep praying for his recovery but I did not pray..not because I didnt believe in prayer but to a certain extent prayer is more to make us calm and not really solving our personal problems in the real sense.

I believe in action to get anything solved..so I monitored my son closely along with his attending doctor and made sure every instruction of his doctor was carried out and my son recovered.

My parents wondered why I never prayed even once..they thought any mother would run to God when their kid was not well...they viewed me as cold.

When my son was sick.. I stopped to think that prayers make actually calms the person who is praying because that person feels worried and stressed up and needs an anti depressant in the form of a prayer.

But does it actually help solve the condition of the person they are praying for?

Technically NO!

Many fail to realize that inner strength itself to face any adversity is God speaking from within.

That for me is the best mode of prayer..not asking for cure but working with God given strength to make sure another person is cured by action rather than prayer.

devotee
18 August 2014, 11:27 PM
Namaste Renuka ji,



Not praying for "help" is not actually undermining the strength of prayer.

When my son was sick.. I stopped to think that prayers make actually calms the person who is praying because that person feels worried and stressed up and needs an anti depressant in the form of a prayer.

But does it actually help solve the condition of the person they are praying for?

Technically NO!

Many fail to realize that inner strength itself to face any adversity is God speaking from within.

That for me is the best mode of prayer..not asking for cure but working with God given strength to make sure another person is cured by action rather than prayer.

Now I think, I understand your point of view better. :)

Prayer doesn't mean that we should stop acting on our own. God has said :

"MAm anusmara, yudhya cha".

Lord Krishna doesn't say that just praying to me ... just chant my name, just keep me in your thoughts ... and you will win the war. NO !

His first instruction is :

MAm anusmara i.e.

"Keep me in your thoughts" ====> Keep me in your mind, in your prayers.

And it is not complete without the second one :

"Yudhya cha"

"and fight (to win the war)" ===> Focus on your duty.

These instructions are not to Arjuna alone but to everyone of us. We must keep God in our thoughts i.e. we should pray but at the same time we must focus on our duty (and leave the results in the hands of God. So that we are not perturbed by thoughts of fear of failures/excitement of expected success. So that we are fully focused to our job at hand).

We are taught :

"Learn to be calmly active and actively calm."

Indulging in dry prayers and running away from one's duty is not real prayer.

OM