Iskcon & Hindu name & OCHS

[hinduism♥krishna]

Hare Krishna...

While browsing through Internet, I came up with this article.

http://worldhindunews.com/2013120115447/notorious-wendy-doniger-hosted-by-the-oxford-centre-for-hindu-studies/

This article describes about oxford centre for hindu studies ( OCHS ), its anti-hinduness, promoting non-hindus to distort Hinduism, shaking off vaishnawa from hindu dharma.... and much more. The director of OCHS is Tim Kiernan, who is a Hare Krishna devotee.

This is talking about from the politics upto the religion and throwing off lights on the reality of Hinduphobia.

For me, it's really surprising that all anti-hindu attitude is being active in official institutions & organizations.

So I opened this thread to discuss on this article and its subject.

Kindly read it fully and share your views. Tell us what do you think about it , how you agreed or disappointed ?

I hope you're writing your views. :)

Thank You. Hare Krishna

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Dandavat Pranams hinduism♥krishna

I always find articles like this disappointing, firstly i have no idea why OCHS would invite Doniger, maybe it was to challenge her and set the record straight.

I also have a lot of sympathy for mainstream Hinduism in regards to ISKCON extending its hand for help in certain situations when they needed them.

With the quotes of Srila Prabhupada saying ISKCON was a non Hindu movement, i would say that certain things have to be taken into account. Firstly the state of Hinduism in recent times after being assaulted by Christians, Muslims and to some degree Buddhism. So Hinduism had lost some of its identity due to external influence and propaganda. Prabhupada always remained firm that this teaching was rooted in the Vedas, are not all teachings of Hindus rooted in the Vedas? So what ever sect or practice we follow consider us as cousins and born of the same cloth even if our philosophy and practice may vary, but hate should never be there. So perhaps it was a term that Hinduism represented that was to wide and vague and Prabhupada wanted to disassociate the Gaudiya Vaishnava practice from this term and state its source as Vedic, not Hindu, as the Vedas were more of an authority.

Then we also have to take into account the higher transcendent teaching that is beyond conventional language, we are neither, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or English, American or Indian, these are conventional bodily designations.

Obviously Prof Ramlal Parikh has gross misinterpretations, and as the article say's why these people are invited beggars belief, but i also do not want to be to judgmental as it may have been for debate purpose.

I do see this as a well written and biased attack on ISKCON, and while ISKCON has had many failings, like most religions this type of article serves very little purpose in the grand scale of things.

No country, regime, religion or institution has ever been free from faults. And said in the best of ways to not cause conflict these types of articles cause more disharmony than harmony.

I am not part of ISKCON any more, in fact most organized religions lose alot when it hits the mainstream, but the essence of Prabhupada's teaching i feel is good, although certain parts are strong.

Sadly there is to much distortion in this articule to give it any real unbiased credit.

Ys
Markandeya Dasa

[IcyCosmic]

Namaste,

''At the same time Prabhupada mocked Hindu gurus as misguided fools who had corrupted the Vedic religion, just as he disassociated his cult from Hindu Dharma. They reserve special hatred for Shaivism.''

Any elaboration can be offered on this point?

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Dandavats Icy,

Firstly in regards to Lord Shiva and Shaivism i really do not know about any special hatred. A lot of my devotee friends honor and respect Lord Shiva and some even do puja, as much as Bhagavata Philosophy is concerned Lord Shiva is giving the highest respect and is considered the highest vaishnava and a unique form of God. I am sure different traditions in Vedic culture may see this different but for sure i am not aware of any special hatred.

I also don't think that Srila Prabhupada said all Hindu teachers as misguided fools, but many were, and some used the Vedc philosophy for personal gain. But i cant in all honesty say that was an absolute statement concerning all teachers of all aspects of Hindu philosophy.

Srila Prabhupada was out spoken and not afraid to speak in a direct way, but we also have to consider the audience, time place and circumstance. He adpated his message to speak directly at the minds of the listeners, like he called scientist fools and rascals and i kick on his face with boot, it may sound extreme, but at the time the scientist were denying god, and coming out with all sorts of crazy things like they are close to curing death, so he was very out spoken against people who were cheating the masses. But does this mean that he was anti science and against all science, not at all, in his final days he wanted nothing more than devotees to learn science and be pure scientist to establish a God conscious society. My own Guru Deva founded the Bhaktivedanta Institute.

It is worthy to note that in his final days Srila Prabhupada lamented some of his harsher speech but thought it was neccssary to establish truth and stop so many people from misleading.

I dont want to overly defend, i have my own issues with ISKCON and the GBC, but at the same time i know many wonderful devotees and the translations of Bhagavad Gita, Srimad Bhagvatam and other works by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada have deeply affected me and others in a positive way.

Ys

Md

[Eastern Mind]

I also don't think that Srila Prabhupada said all Hindu teachers as misguided fools, but many were, and some used the Vedc philosophy for personal gain.

Vannakkam: I agree with this. I don't think he 'hated' anyone, but was on occasion a master of hyperbole.

Aum Namasivaya

[ShivaFan]

He was very funny. He could bust a smile and a laugh on the audience like the best of them, truly he was very, very clever and funny with the give and take with both the high and low, sinner or saint. What a great personality! Especially when poking fun at someone. Too bad he still isn't here, he would have loved to reply to some of the posts once in a while, and get ready to smile.

[hinduism♥krishna]

I also have a lot of sympathy for mainstream Hinduism

Namaste Markandeya..
May I know what's mainstream Hinduism ? As per my knowledge, there's nothing mainstream in hindu ( arya ) dharma.

In Hinduism, there are primarily four main sects - Vaishnawism - Shaivism - Smartism - Shaktism. These all are entirely based on Veda and Puranas. In fact, Smartism represents a pure Vedic tradition as Veda and Puranas mention worship of multiple gods. Our ancient Indian ancestors used to worship many gods and if you see the history of sects like Shaivism or Vaishnawism, you'll see that these sects aren't older than 700 years. This indicates origin of shivism or Vaishnawism in Smarta tradition and this is supported by the fact that both worship of shiva and Vishnu is in Smartism and we can see that puranic characters used to worship many gods.

These all four sects have many branches too, each differing in relation of God, soul & world and supreme god notion. All other things are same in each sect of Hinduism, whether it is Vaishnawism or Shaivism.

And I think ISKCON is a branch of Gaudiya Vaishnawism of Hinduism. Surprisingly All other Gaudiyas except Iskconites claim themselves Hindus. What's the special need for declining Hindu word if you can use both hindu and Vedic ?


Prabhupada always remained firm that this teaching was rooted in the Vedas, are not all teachings of Hindus rooted in the Vedas?
So, Do this means all other sampradayas like Shaivism & Shaktism are non-vedic as Christianity & Islam are ?

I haven't seen any authentic sect of Hinduism which isn't rooted in Veda. However you can tell us which sect of Hinduism is not rooted in Veda and tell us why & how ?


Prabhupada wanted to disassociate the Gaudiya Vaishnava practice from this term and state its source as Vedic, not Hindu, as the Vedas were more of an authority.

So, saying hindu means authority of non-vedic believes ?

Even Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to call hindu word. In Chaitanya Charitamrita, Hindu is identified with followers of Veda and as per Hindu's view, the person is called as hindu when he follows Veda and who is born in Bramhana, kshatriya, vaishya and Shudra varnas. Persons born in these Varnas are called as Hindus. In further step, Hindu is called as Arya or Dvija when he gets his second spiritual birth.



I do see this as a well written and biased attack on ISKCON,

However I don't see anything bias in that article. I personally read Prabhupada's books and disappointed with those constant attacks on Advaita and Shaivism.

So if you think deeply, you'll see that declining hindu word is nothing but the declining of other hindu sects as Vedic sects.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dandavats Icy,

Firstly in regards to Lord Shiva and Shaivism i really do not know about any special hatred.

You can search in Google. Type "Prabhupada Shiva"


A lot of my devotee friends honor and respect Lord Shiva and some even do puja,

It's really nice ! However Iskcon leaders totally condemn worship of Shiva. I heard this when I was in Iskcon temple and talking with my devotee friend. They think that shiva's worship will harm them as it increases Tamasa Guna. Am I right or correct me.


Shiva is considered the highest vaishnava and a unique form of God.

Yes, they considered it. But at the same time says that Shiva is under Maya and its three gunas. Now tell me how can the greatest vaishnawa be under the mode of Maya ? Aren't topmost vaishnawas beyond Maya ? This seems to me a self contradiction.

And what about this Amrut's thread mentioning about Bhagavata purana verses which declares shiva as supreme lord, parabramha and higher than Vishnu ?

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12038




Srila Prabhupada was out spoken and not afraid to speak in a direct way, but we also have to consider the audience, time place and circumstance. He adpated his message to speak directly at the minds of the listeners, like he called scientist fools and rascals and i kick on his face with boot, it may sound extreme, but at the time the scientist were denying god, and coming out with all sorts of crazy things like they are close to curing death, so he was very out spoken against people who were cheating the masses. But does this mean that he was anti science and against all science, not at all, in his final days he wanted nothing more than devotees to learn science and be pure scientist to establish a God conscious society.

Whatever it is, but the thing I learned from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's 8 verses is that Vaishnava never criticizes anyone in any circumstances .

Hare Krishna

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Dandavats hinduism♥krishna,

What i mean by mainstream Hinduism is the religious practices that come from India, but as you say and i am in full agreement that its more complex than just terming all the practices under one name. There are different sects, belief systems and practices, so as far as i could see Prabhupada wanted to disassociate the sect of Gauydiya Vaishnavism ( especially in the west ) from the term Hinduism, its to broad and sometimes vague for the western audience, and as said before Srila Prabhupada was more inclined in certain situations to promote the philosophy as Vedic rather than Hindu. But i try not to get caught up in conventions and get all tangled up, it can be a waste of time, Veda is Sanatana Dharma, and Sanatana Dharma of Veda is broad and expansive but ultimately interconnected, if you want it to call it Hinduism thats fine by me.

The other sects of Sri Gaudiya Sampradaya had very little exposure outside of India and is mostly known only in India and especially West Bengal, so there is not so much of a need to emphasize being a non Hindu. For me its all very simple and not worth getting to worked up about.


So, Do this means all other sampradayas like Shaivism & Shaktism are non-vedic as Christianity & Islam are ?

I haven't seen any authentic sect of Hinduism which isn't rooted in Veda. However you can tell us which sect of Hinduism is not rooted in Veda and tell us why & how ? As i said all comes from Veda so i am not sure of your objection.



So, saying hindu means authority of non-vedic believes ?

Even Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to call hindu word. In Chaitanya Charitamrita, Hindu is identified with followers of Veda and as per Hindu's view, the person is called as hindu when he follows Veda and who is born in Bramhana, kshatriya, vaishya and Shudra varnas. Persons born in these Varnas are called as Hindus. In further step, Hindu is called as Arya or Dvija when he gets his second spiritual birth. No i am not saying that, i am not objcting to the usage of the word Hindu, what i was saying that in the west, where Prabhupada was preaching on many occaisions gave more reference to Vedic culture and authority rather than Hindu, this has many reasons, one being that Hinduism was also connected to the caste system, and Veda does not support the caste system, what Veda supports in terms of quality of person and duty is Varnashrama-dharma, this is not a birth right, but a qualitative right, but in Kali Yuga this ancient social system is corrupted, and the corruption was exposed by non Indians and Indians alike, but many times Hinduism is associated with the caste system. Even today Buddhist will promote their teachings as more advanced than Hinduism because of Hinduisms associations with the caste system, sometimes you have to understand perceptions of others and preach more in Vedic terms to clear out the misunderstandings.

Also Sri Chaitianya Maha Prabhu was a social reformer, and even if one is born in a family of outcastes (dog eaters) or from sudra family they can become Brahmins and pure devotees, if they have the qualifications.


However I don't see anything bias in that article. I personally read Prabhupada's books and disappointed with those constant attacks on Advaita and Shaivism.

So if you think deeply, you'll see that declining hindu word is nothing but the declining of other hindu sects as Vedic sects.

Firstly i don't think Srila Prabhupada was totally declining the word Hindu, he also used it many times in favourable ways, he inter changed the expression of the meaning, not everything should be taken literally, time, place, circumstance and emphasis has to be taken into account.

Sometimes people ask me do i follow hinduism, sometimes i say yes and other times i say no, it all depends on who i am talking to, its all just conventions to me and the true purport of Veda is to go beyond conventions to understand sanatana dharma.

I dont see any constant attacks of Shaivism as i stated in my previous post, but i would agree that there is a strong opposition to advaita vedanta, its the argument of personalism against impersonalism, the Viashnava Acharyas have taken offence in no uncertain terms that Krsna and his other personal expansions are an inferior form of Brahman and ultimately their forms merge back into the Brahman.

Bhakti is a personal Bhajan where svarupa is eternal and transcendental.

Its not one of my favourite topics of discussion as i see everything as Gods play, Adi Shankara was after all the Mighty Lord Shiva as far as i understand, so all things have purpose and i am just a small conditioned spark in a vast creation, i dont know more than God and i cant say i understand or know his plans better than He does.

I will leave you with a verse to consider


Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate

TRANSLATION

Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan.
Ys

Md

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Dandavats hinduism♥krishna,

In reply to your second post


You can search in Google. Type "Prabhupada Shiva"

http://backtogodhead.in/worshiping-lord-siva-in-the-right-mood/

For me personally i dont need to go beyond that, if others have a negative hateful mood against Lord Shiva then they are committing grave offenses and not in line with Vaishnava Siddhanta.


It's really nice ! However Iskcon leaders totally condemn worship of Shiva. I heard this when I was in Iskcon temple and talking with my devotee friend. They think that shiva's worship will harm them as it increases Tamasa Guna. Am I right or correct me.

This again is a gross misunderstanding. Lord Shiva according to Vaishnava Siddhanta is controlling Tama Guna, this does not mean Lord Shiva is in Tamas or that if one worships Lord Shiva he will become Tamas, thats a complete misinterpretation. It is said that Lord Shiva out of pure compassion and love gives shelter to all living beings, demon, ghost or divine. But never have i heard that one goes into Tamas by worship of Lord Shiva.

You may if you have time give this a read for your consideration.

http://www.prabhupada.de/Books/SB/04/02.html


Whatever it is, but the thing I learned from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's 8 verses is that Vaishnava never criticizes anyone in any circumstances .

I agree, and we should be humble and compassionate, without fault finding at all times if we are to succeed in our respective paths.

But as we take it in faith Prabhupada was an Acharya, and the rules of compassion for the self realized are different to the rules of compassion for the conditioned, a Guru can chastise out of love for the greater well being, just like a mother out of love scolds her child if he/she wants to play with fire.

But we should not imitate, Prabhupada was very loving and gentle, but he roared like a lion when needed, if we imitate like some devotees do then we only make jiva aparadha and we are destined for misfortune.

I hope my post have been of some help

Ys

Md

[hinduism♥krishna]

Thank you, Markandeya ji for giving me explanations.

So this seems Prabhupada never condemned worship of shiva. He instructed to worship him in other way, not as a supreme lord.

However I disappointed with his some quotes like -


Prabhupada: Lord Ramachandra worshiped His devotees. Just as sometimes Krishna worships Radharani and touched Her feet and, just like Krishna was tolerating ear pulling by mother Yashoda. That does not mean that mother Yashoda is the Supreme. Hm?

Is it not possible to say in reverse way ?
As far as Mahabharata is concerned, this isn't acceptable. Krishna himself declares Shiva as supreme god and Paramatma. So what's the point to explain worship of shiva by Rama in such illogical & absurd way ?



Prabhupada: Krishna does not say that Shiva is Supreme.

This isn't true. In Ramayana and Mahabharata, Krishna and Rama both have declared Shiva as supreme god.


But if you take Lord Shiva as the Supreme, that is insult. if you say that he is the Supreme, then shiva will feel insulted, that “what is this nonsense saying?” So don’t insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn’t like that.

Another absurd thing for me. I hope Prabhupada is kidding here.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Dandavats hinduism♥krishna,

Throughout all of shastra we see many reference, where Lord Krishna, Lord Rama and Lord Shiva are all described as the Supreme Lord, if one understands the teaching of achintya-bheda-abheda tattva in all its diversity it easily resolves the mysteries of the transcendent personalities and their pastimes. All are respectivly supreme, all of us have our relation with a part of the supreme.

In the Vaikuntha planets all Bhaktas think that their relationship with the Lord is the best and most unique, as far as i understand it is only our conditioned material dualistic mind that see's the competition and controversy of the transcendent world, which is full of love and unity with diversity. And only a transcendent mind liberated through Brahman can fully understand the pastimes of the divine.

I wish you well and good luck with your practice.

In peace

Ys
Md

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dandavats hinduism♥krishna,

Throughout all of shastra we see many reference, where Lord Krishna, Lord Rama and Lord Shiva are all described as the Supreme Lord, if one understands the teaching of achintya-bheda-abheda tattva in all its diversity it easily resolves the mysteries of the transcendent personalities and their pastimes. All are respectivly supreme, all of us have our relation with a part of the supreme.

In the Vaikuntha planets all Bhaktas think that their relationship with the Lord is the best and most unique, as far as i understand it is only our conditioned material dualistic mind that see's the competition and controversy of the transcendent world, which is full of love and unity with diversity. And only a transcendent mind liberated through Brahman can fully understand the pastimes of the divine.

I wish you well and good luck with your practice.
Md


Thank you, Prabhu.

So the thing is very clear. Siva is subordinate to Krishna and he is the greatest Vaishnawa. So every vaishnawa's first duty should be worship of such topmost vaishnawa. Thus We should not insult such high soul and should respect him same as Krishna.
It is somewhere said that praising vaishnawa as Vishnu himself gives the abundant mercy of our sweet lord Krishna.

However it is vaishnawa's personal freedom whether to consider shiva and Vishnu different or same. I consider both of them one, though I see Vishnu as a supreme god. Because in my mind, there's a firm conviction of this theory of lord Krishna - " Duality itself is not real. So whatever thought or seen by mind considering Duality, is an illusion, just like illusion of two moons seen by a deformed eye "

Hare Krishna :)

[SKR108]

This is why I can't really get down with iskcon. I am actually partial to vaishnavism even though i was born into the smartha tradition but it seems like most iskconites relish in talking down to people when a good many of them are Westerners who only recently became familiar with dharma.

I do enjoy reading literature by prabhupada though.