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wundermonk
29 April 2014, 11:56 AM
Hello all,

Let us discuss the following.

Premise 1: Krishna advises Arjuna to act without desire.

Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.

Conclusion: Therefore, Krishna's advice is a contradiction.

Regards,

WM

satay
29 April 2014, 03:14 PM
namaste,
Could you provide reference for Premise 1? I don't know where Krishna advises arjuna to act without desire.


Hello all,

Let us discuss the following.

Premise 1: Krishna advises Arjuna to act without desire.

Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.

Conclusion: Therefore, Krishna's advice is a contradiction.

Regards,

WM

hinduism♥krishna
29 April 2014, 10:19 PM
Hello, wundermonk..

Would you provide us exact references for premise 2 ? While reading Bhagavad Gita, I didn't find such premise, at least by directly.

As you think, 'Desire is not a necessity for action. Krishna says that controlling desire is difficult task but not impossible. He places Sanyasa(Detachment from samsara) & Buddhiyoga( Detachment from samsara without desiring fruits of action) on the same level. He refuted those so called pandits who say action can't be done without desire. He explains Arjuna without desire, you should follow your duty and never desire for any positive or negative fruits. You should burn your desires about fruits in the Yadnya which is none other than Vishnu. You should think that god alone acts under the influence of destiny and you're aloof from your body & Maya. In advanced version of gita, Uddhava Gita, Krishna instructs to consider the self indifferent from Brahman. Who contemplates oneself as Brahman, without much delay he gets established in Brahman, he becomes Brahman himself.

Jai Krishna Govinda..

wundermonk
30 April 2014, 01:09 AM
Reference for Premise 1: Krishna advises Arjuna to act without desire.


To work alone you have the right, and not to the fruits. Do not be impelled by the fruits of work. Nor have attachment to inaction.

Reference for Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.


If slain, you shall win heaven; or if victorious, you shall enjoy the earth. Therefore, arise, O Arjuna, resolved to fight.

hinduism♥krishna
30 April 2014, 01:54 AM
Reference for Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.
If slain, you shall win heaven; or if victorious, you shall enjoy the earth. Therefore, arise, O Arjuna, resolved to fight..

This doesn't mean Desire is necessary condition of action. You have wrongly perceived this. I think we should not interpret all verses of Bhagavad Gita individually without looking into contexts.

In earlier verses it is mentioned that Arjuna doesn't wish take any bow against his own relatives. He was frightened by the sins that could have been incurred after killing them. He thought that he would go to hell if he do this hilarious act. Arjuna at that time was confused about his own duty and he forgot the duty of Kshatriya-Varna. Then he requested shri Krishna to take him as his Shishya. At first, generally, Guru teaches Shishya according to his Mind. He has to come in the lower level according to shishya's level of understanding. In the same way, Krishna told Arjuna to give up this false notion of fear about Hell. Kshatriya never incurs a sin when he follows his duty. Performing one's own duty according to varna is the door to heaven. In fact if you don't follow this duty you'll incure the sins. Actually happy are warriors who come by a war like this. In this battle, you'll either get killed or win..So if you follow your duty to follow battle, there's no any harm to you in either case. If you win, you'll enjoy the earth and if you get killed, you'll enjoy the heaven.... How did you come to be deluded that you will incur sin by performing your duty? Will a person who crosses a river in a boat get drowned? Will a person walking straight on a highway stumble? But he who does not know how to walk properly will miss his footing.
If a person drinks milk mixed with poison, he will surely die; likewise a person incurs sin if he does his duty with the motive of gain.

So Arjuna, wake up...Stand up with a bow in your hand and fight with valour. Hold alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat, and get ready for battle; then you will not incur sin.

Shri Krishna is scolding his dearest shishya Arjuna " You grieve and yet spout words of wisdom. Where is Grief for you? "

satay
30 April 2014, 12:13 PM
namaste,


Reference for Premise 1: Krishna advises Arjuna to act without desire.


This only says to have no desire for the 'fruit' of the action. It says nothing about desire in relation to the action itself. Obviously 'desire' is a necessary condition for action otherwise how else are we going to act on anything?

yajvan
30 April 2014, 01:58 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


namaste,
This only says to have no desire for the 'fruit' of the action. It says nothing about desire in relation to the action itself. Obviously 'desire' is a necessary condition for action otherwise how else are we going to act on anything?


You are speaking clearly on this satay...( well done).

Kṛṣṇa says the following in the Bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi

This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

For some reason this tends to cause some people consternation, yet it seems straight forward as I see it.

iti śivaṁ

satay
30 April 2014, 04:13 PM
namaste,


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

For some reason this tends to cause some people consternation, yet it seems straight forward as I see it.

iti śivaṁ
Yes, it is clear isn't it? He says not to desire fruit but also points out the impossibility of 'inaction'. So not sure what the confusion is.:coffee:

devotee
30 April 2014, 10:27 PM
Namaste,

A very good discussion indeed ! Satay has hit the nail on its head. Actually, the message of Bhagwad Gita and its practical application should be very clearly understood. In the whole of Bhagwad Gita, the non-attachment to Karmaphala has been stressed upon.

Arjuna must be focused to fight and fight with all his might to win the battle (mark these words ... this ensures focused action and well-defined aim). But he should not be bogged down with the outcome of the war. He may fight and win and he may also fight and lose. The focus should be on fighting in the best possible way and not on the goal and he must be equanimous in accepting both success and failure.

It would not be out place to mention that this was taught to me in one of the classes of Management too by one renowned professor. This helps not only spiritually but also helps you to give your 100% to the action without being bothered about success or failure. This helps you to remain calm and composed and usually you tend to do better in any competitive environment. Attachment to fruits of action bring in undesirable tension/nervousness which tends to blunt your effectiveness. Australian Cricket Team used this philosophy very effectively (without spiritual effects): One of their coaches once said : "Focus on the process and not the outcome. Well performed process will take care of the result but focusing on result will make you lose focus on the process and that would result bad result."

OM

wundermonk
01 May 2014, 01:13 AM
This doesn't mean Desire is necessary condition of action.

In most theories of motivation and action (both Western as well as Indian), action necessarily implies the pre-existence of desire. For e.g. according to Manusmriti:

Belief -- > Desire* -- > Action.

Nyaya and Vedantin had a long series of dialectics along the following lines.

Why should the mumuksu pursue the goal of moksha? Because it is a state of absolute bliss (as per Vedanta) or it is a state of absence of pain (as per Nyaya). However, one requires to first desire this state of absolute bliss/absence of pain, in order to undertake the means for attaining moksha.

* - one possibly needs to differentiate different types of desire. Are there certain permissible desires (such as the desire to attain moksha) and certain impermissible desires (such as the desire for excessive wealth and sense pleasures)?


At first, generally, Guru teaches Shishya according to his Mind. He has to come in the lower level according to shishya's level of understanding.

This I agree with.

wundermonk
01 May 2014, 01:22 AM
This only says to have no desire for the 'fruit' of the action. It says nothing about desire in relation to the action itself. Obviously 'desire' is a necessary condition for action otherwise how else are we going to act on anything?

Excellent. So, we have two types of desires:

(1) Desires for ends/fruits.

(2) Desires for means to ends/fruits.

So, Krishna is against desires of type (1) but favours desires of type (2).

Is there any evidence of desires of type (2)? Do humans ever engage in action purely motivated by desires of type (2)?

Nityakamas are those injunctions/vidhis of the Vedas for which there is no prescribed fruit.

Non-performance of Nityakarmic vidhis leads to acquisition of demerit. While performance of these same vidhis does not lead to any new acquisition of merit. So, by default, the expectation of God is that we do our work/duty. Merit is not acquired by doing duty. Only demerit accrues by non-performance of duty.

Lokasamgraha (for the benefit/welfare of the world) is enjoined in BG 3:25:


Just as the ignorant, attached to their work, act, O Arjuna, so too the learned should act without any attachment, and only for the welfare of the world.

Is "welfare of the world" a karmaphala (desire for a result)?

Mana
01 May 2014, 08:23 AM
Namaste All,

Wondermonk in light of bullet point number two:

Yes I think so, by way of music. I often hear the desire in a frustrated musicians voice. It is found somewhere tucked right at the back of the mind, between their intonation and their thought, between the pada; Almost as though it were blocking something from shining through them. Perhaps, were it that they were to let go, they might improve greatly in their chosen field. After which; I think it would be fair to say that they might very well remain desirios, of doing something which brings them such a peaceful state of mind. Perhaps even a little joy to themselves and others.

In these instances I like to think that they are connected to something higher; rather than to any others views, or, any material reward.

Is it not the same for puja?

Kind regards.

satay
01 May 2014, 08:30 AM
Namaste,




Is "welfare of the world" a karmaphala (desire for a result)?


After reading your post again I decided to delete my previous response.

'act for the welfare of the world' seems to be an instruction irrelevant of desire.


While performance of these same vidhis does not lead to any new acquisition of merit.

Where is this mentioned?

satay
01 May 2014, 08:35 AM
Namaste,


Namaste,
One of their coaches once said : "Focus on the process and not the outcome. Well performed process will take care of the result but focusing on result will make you lose focus on the process and that would result bad result."

OM

This is true. I read somewhere (in a management book) that I am paraphrasing 'your team doesn't need to be 'managed', only manage 'processes' for them, simplify the processes for them and the team will follow.' In my practical experience, this is true.

jignyAsu
01 May 2014, 06:12 PM
Hello all,

Let us discuss the following.

Premise 1: Krishna advises Arjuna to act without desire.

Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.

Conclusion: Therefore, Krishna's advice is a contradiction.

Regards,

WM

Namaste Wm,

It seems that when Krishna is asking Arjuna to fight without desire or being the same to dualities, it is only the material/temporary desires that He is talking about. The mumukhsu performs his duties with the desire of self realization and eternal union with Krishna.

In start of Chapter 3, Arjuna asks for instructions by which he can attain the highest- that is his desire for which Krishna describes the "path" taken by the yOgis to be liberated from the temporary worlds, to attain the Atma and get freed of birth and death. So, when an ordinary Kshatriya performs his duty for various temporary benefits like heaven etc., the karma yogi performs the same duty by renouncing doership and fruits of action with the desire of attaining everlasting abode. When one progresses to Bhakti yoga, he too desires eternal union with Him which is obvious.

So, it looks like the desire is very much there.

yajvan
01 May 2014, 07:38 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

But what is the crux of kṛṣṇa-ji 's teaching ? I see it in the bhāgavad gītā, chapter 2, 48th śloka. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us , yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).
Within yoga (union) that kṛṣṇa-ji suggests, there is perfect balance, or sattva¹. So, fast forward to the 14th chapter, 16th śloka we find kṛṣṇa-ji saying that success, happiness, bliss (sukṛta¹) is born of sattva (sāttvkaṁ).

What then is the overall message ? When one is established in union ( of the Supreme no less) one becomes increasingly skillful. Actions are not only right actions in accord with dharma ( natural law) they are also uplifting and bring success and happiness. Yet this person who is established in yoga is not bound/attached to the actions and there are no binding influences a.k.a. vāsanā-s¹.

iti śivaṁ

words

sattva- being, wholeness, purity, that one unfolds their essence (sārah). The implications are substantial . It is not by acting good that one unfolds, but by infusing the highest good in one's self that unfoldment occurs to ones delight.
sattva - in the sāṃkhya view of reality it is the highest of the three guṇa-s. With one's spiritual practice over time, sattva infusion into one's behavior unfolds their essence (sārah) of being as their true nature
sukṛta - meritorious act , virtue , moral merit ; well-conducted , virtuous , fortunate ; another name for prajā-pati
vāsanā - impressions that spring additional desire-action cycles.

Amrut
03 May 2014, 12:49 AM
Namaste,

Sri Ramakrishna says that as delivery date of a pregnant women approaches, work is reduced. After 7 months, limited work is given and after delivery (GYAna), no work is given, only taking care of child (staying with GYAna) is given.

Practically, when sattva reaches it's pinnacle, then amount of work, physical work, decreases and a person becomes more and more introvert. Introvert person's prArabhdha is still extant, but s/he does not take any new initiative.

If you plan anything, then it is your initiative. This means the karma is sakAma.

Surrendering fruits helps one detach, remove expectations and thereby help one not to think about anything else than God. After moksha is the only desire left, God will remove that vAsanA too.

when one is strongly surrendered, the effect of anything else, like work pressure, etc do not influence his mind.

Everything just happens, Life is a happening. Also ISvara takes care of our body (yoga kshema vahamya ham).

OM

Amrut
03 May 2014, 03:17 AM
Namaste,

If we remember two verses of Gita -

Gita begins with mOhAndha saying dharma kshetre ... Even Arjun is full of mOha and questions Krishna how can I kill my relatives

(then comes instructions of action with detachment / do not expect fruits)

Arjun asks give me what is best for me

Last verse of Arjun is naShTO mOha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacaman tava

This means -


Arjun's mOha is destroyed.
He is not inclined either to act or not to act (karma or karma sanyAsa).
Unconditional surrender to the Lord.Does this mean our jorney is - karma --> niSkAma karma --> akarma ?

OM

satay
03 May 2014, 05:45 PM
Namaste,

If we remember two verses of Gita -

Gita begins with mOhAndha saying dharma kshetre ... Even Arjun is full of mOha and questions Krishna how can I kill my relatives

(then comes instructions of action with detachment / do not expect fruits)

Arjun asks give me what is best for me

Last verse of Arjun is naShTO mOha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacaman tava

This means -


Arjun's mOha is destroyed.
He is not inclined either to act or not to act (karma or karma sanyAsa).
Unconditional surrender to the Lord.Does this mean our jorney is - karma --> niSkAma karma --> akarma ?

OM

Namaste,
The end stage cannot be 'akarma' as in chapter 3 Krishna says that he himself continues to perform karma even when there is no need for him to do so. If he continues to perform...

Amrut
04 May 2014, 03:12 AM
Namaste,
The end stage cannot be 'akarma' as in chapter 3 Krishna says that he himself continues to perform karma even when there is no need for him to do so. If he continues to perform...

Namaste,

In case of both sakAm and niSkAma karma, karma produces fruit and one has to bare it. In case of niSkAma karma, the person does not expect any desired fruit and surrenders his fruits to ISvara.

in akarma sthiti, the karma does not produce fruit. So there is neither suffering nor happiness, hence there is no further stimulation to do any karma based on the earlier karma. So there is no rebirth.

In case of bhagavAn, we can say that he himself is not bound by his karma, nor does he say anywhere that he also has to pass through merits / demerits of his own karma.

In case of GYAnI, since he is never a doer, he is not attached to anything that is done by or via non-self. Hence his own actions does not yield any fruits to himself.

I had read somewhere that merits of GYAnI are bestowed to his disciples, while demerits of GYAnI are passed on to his enemies.

bhagavAn also says that by a GYAnI can kill lakhs of people, but not even a stain of blood can touch him. How is this possible? Because he is not doing any karma by himself. ISvara takes control of his body and uses the way he wants to.

Since arjuna was qualified for karma and not GYAna, hence to encourage him bhagavAn must have said.

3.21 Whatever a superior person does, another person does that very thing! Whatever he upholds as authority, an ordinary person follows that.

3.23 For, should I not ever engage Myself in action, unwearied, men would in every way follow My path, O Arjuna.

3.24 These worlds would perish if I did not perform action; I should be the author of confusion of castes and destruction of these beings.

3.25 O scion of the Bharata dynasty, as the unelightened poeple act with attachment to work, so should the enlightened person act, without attachment, being desirous of the prevention of people from going astray.

3.26 Let no wise man unsettle the mind of ignorant people who are attached to action; he should engage them in all actions, himself fulfilling them with devotion.

Later verses explain the reason why GYAnI should act as aGYAnI

Chapter 3 begins with praise of GYAna, then arjuna gets confused, then bhagavAn talks from jIva bhAva BG 3.5 and later

3.5 Because, no one ever remains even for a moment without doing work. For all are made to work under compulsion by the gunas born of Nature.

GYAnI is beyond guNa-s, refer BG 14.24-25

14.24 He to whom sorrow and happiness are alike, who is established in his own Self, to whom a lump of earth, iron and gold are the same, to whom the agreeable and the disagreeable are the same, who is wise, to whom censure and his own praise are the same;

14.25 He who is the same under honour and dishonour, who is equally disposed both towards the side of the friend and of the foe, who has renounced all enterprise,-he is said to have gone beyond the qualities.

Also note

3.17 But that man who rejoices only in the Self and is satisfied with the Self, and is contented only in the Self-for him there is no duty to perform.

3.18 For him there is no concern here at all with performing action; nor any (concern) with nonperformance. Moreover, for him there is no dependence on any object to serve any purpose.

3.22 In all the three worlds, O Partha, there is no duty whatsoever for Me (to fulfil); nothing remains unachieved or to be achieved.

----

What is important is our attachment to guNa-s and agent of action like mind, senses, etc, through which action takes place. Ego makes us feel that 'we' are doing action. If one stays detached form all these, then one cannot act. The mental state of such saint is neutral, peaceful and full of bliss.

Not the external action, but internal state is important. Attachment is through mind i.e. mind gets attached to gross objects and not vice versa.

Hari OM

silence_speaks
05 May 2014, 06:43 AM
Dear Friends,
:) Please see how beautiful this is ...
when sri krishna says "you have a right over the action, but no control over the result" , its a statement of fact. Its like the law of gravity ... if you jump from the 6th floor, you will fall down. Its the law.
Same way, if i do not have a control and define our happiness based on it .... its like taking an inevitable event and worry about it ! For example, the body grows old .. thats a law. if i do not understand that and try to keep the body young, i suffer.
fire burns ... a law. i understand it and use it appropriately..
if i do not understand and put my finger again and again in fire ?

same way, i have control over what i have to do ... but the result is not in my hands ... its a simple law ... i understand and live by it. so i know that if i work hard for my exams , i am likely to get a good score, but there is no guarantee ... when i know this and dont fight with the law but use it appropriately, its wise living !

This is not about desires at this point.

Love!
Silence

satay
05 May 2014, 01:12 PM
Namaste Amrut,


Namaste,
in akarma sthiti, the karma does not produce fruit. So there is neither suffering nor happiness, hence there is no further stimulation to do any karma based on the earlier karma. So there is no rebirth.
Hari OM

I did not know that.

When I think of अक्रम, I think of 'not' karma so in other words if karma is action, a-karma is non-action. Krishna says there is no such thing is my understanding. You cannot have non-action or akarma. I looked up the word in a Sanskrit dictionary and its meaning is not as you have outlined above. But that doesn't make it wrong just different.

Thanks for the post.

satay
05 May 2014, 01:19 PM
Namaste WM,




* - one possibly needs to differentiate different types of desire. Are there certain permissible desires (such as the desire to attain moksha) and certain impermissible desires (such as the desire for excessive wealth and sense pleasures)?



This must be rhetorical question.

Even the brahmasutra start with 'athato brahma jijnasa'. If the 'jijnasa' is not there, the discovery will not start. So the 'desire' to 'act' must be there. Krishna warns against desire for 'results'. You have no right over the results. Just act and do and that too within your own dharma 'svadharma' is the suggestion from him.

Just my 2 cents.

brahma jijnasa
05 May 2014, 03:58 PM
Namaste

When I think of अक्रम, I think of 'not' karma so in other words if karma is action, a-karma is non-action. Krishna says there is no such thing is my understanding. You cannot have non-action or akarma. I looked up the word in a Sanskrit dictionary and its meaning is not as you have outlined above. But that doesn't make it wrong just different.

Lord Krishna used the word akarma in the Bhagavad gita 4.18 (http://vedabase.net/bg/4/18/): karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ


regards

Amrut
07 May 2014, 06:21 AM
Namaste Amrut,

I did not know that.

When I think of अक्रम, I think of 'not' karma so in other words if karma is action, a-karma is non-action. Krishna says there is no such thing is my understanding. You cannot have non-action or akarma. I looked up the word in a Sanskrit dictionary and its meaning is not as you have outlined above. But that doesn't make it wrong just different.

Thanks for the post.

(sorry, I did not get any email notification, hence the delay)

Namaste Satay ji,

It is not akrama (अक्रम) it is akarma (अकर्म).

a-karma is inaction. Please refer to meaning of spokensanskrit.de

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=akarman&script=&direction=SE&link=yes

अकर्मन् = inaction (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=inaction&direction=ES&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=)

---------

See, action produces a fruit only when there is attachment with what you do. When jIva enlightens mind and mind tunes with senses, then everything is sakAma. But when one is detached, as is an observer, then who does the action.

The doer has to suffer/enjoy (bhoga) fruits, but when there is no doer, then who is the bhoktA of fruits. You cannot be a witness and a doer at the same time.

----------

First one has to become internally pure by doing action. Then take up the path of renunciation i.e. karma-tyAga. Intermediate path is to work without expectations. In GYAna mArga, there is a strong desire to attain moksha. Moksha is also a desire. But with the help of this desire, all other desires are up-rooted. then this desire is also renounced. What is left is pure eternal state of consciousness.

Sri Ramana Maharshi gave an example:

Just like a fire burning the corpse extinguishes by itself (and does not continue) after the corpse is burned, so is the thought of Self Enquiry dissolve in the source.

Another e.g.

Just like kapur (camphor), after cleaning the water sinks and does not float, in the same way the thought of self enquiry does not retain or continue after all other thoughts die.

Kapur attracts mud particles and becomes heavy. So when one circulates kapur after accumulating the mud on itself i.e. cleaning water, it itself settles down at bottom.

----

karma is jaDa (gross), it cannot produce fruit upon itself. It is mind which attaches itself to any karma and makes an opinion. When one is witness, one can even witness the mind (which is nothing but continuous flow of thoughts), then where is the question of an observer (witness), to be attached to mind or the 'I' sense.


Namaste


Lord Krishna used the word akarma in the Bhagavad gita 4.18 (http://vedabase.net/bg/4/18/): karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ


regards

Nice catch BJ :) Jai Shri Krishna

OM

Amrut
07 May 2014, 06:41 AM
Namaste WM,

This must be rhetorical question.

Even the brahmasutra start with 'athato brahma jijnasa'. If the 'jijnasa' is not there, the discovery will not start. So the 'desire' to 'act' must be there. Krishna warns against desire for 'results'. You have no right over the results. Just act and do and that too within your own dharma 'svadharma' is the suggestion from him.

Just my 2 cents.

Namaste,

Much is explained earlier, please refer arjuna last verse

अर्जुन उवाच
नष्टो मोहः स्मृतिर्लब्धा त्वत्प्रसादान्मयाच्युत।
स्थितोऽस्मि गतसन्देहः करिष्ये वचनं तव।।18.73।।

18.73 Arjuna said -- O Acyuta, (my) delusion has been destroyed and memory has been regained by me through Your grace. I stand with my doubt removed; I shall follow Your instruction.

Here there is no commitment to either 'act' or 'not to act'. Arjun says, I will do as you say. So if you say, 'fight' I will fight, if you say, 'do not fight', I will not fight.

Moha is attachment. and it is not destroyed by only his own effort. It is only destroyed by grace of God. Retaining memory means to regain the knowledge about true nature.

OM

satay
07 May 2014, 02:22 PM
Namaste,




Here there is no commitment to either 'act' or 'not to act'. Arjun says, I will do as you say. So if you say, 'fight' I will fight, if you say, 'do not fight', I will not fight.

Moha is attachment. and it is not destroyed by only his own effort. It is only destroyed by grace of God. Retaining memory means to regain the knowledge about true nature.

OM

I am not sure if that's what is meant by "I shall follow your instruction." Krishna gave a lot of instructions and explanations from start till this verse. I think Arjuna is now at a stage where he realizes , 'ah, I see. I will do my dharma. I have no doubt about that. I will perform my svadharma.'

It's not that he will do what Lord tells him to do. In fact, Krishna actually does not tell him to do anything. He just provides suggestions and leaves it up to Arjuna to decide in the end. That's where the 'free will' or svatantrata (marginal as it might be) of jiva comes in.

God is not going to decide for him if he should fight or not. He is just saying arjuna you should possible consider fighting because that is 'your dharma', perform svadharma.

My simple understanding.

Amrut
07 May 2014, 10:56 PM
Namaste,


I am not sure if that's what is meant by "I shall follow your instruction." Krishna gave a lot of instructions and explanations from start till this verse. I think Arjuna is now at a stage where he realizes , 'ah, I see. I will do my dharma. I have no doubt about that. I will perform my svadharma.'

It's not that he will do what Lord tells him to do. In fact, Krishna actually does not tell him to do anything. He just provides suggestions and leaves it up to Arjuna to decide in the end. That's where the 'free will' or svatantrata (marginal as it might be) of jiva comes in.

God is not going to decide for him if he should fight or not. He is just saying arjuna you should possible consider fighting because that is 'your dharma', perform svadharma.

My simple understanding.

Namaste,

I agree with you, but not completely.

God never 'orders' anyone. He does not force anyone. God shows you two ways.

Krisna gave instructions that suited Arjuna. since Arjuna was a representative of all seekers so some questions were put into his mouth for the good of all. Adi Sankara says this in his Gita commentary but I am not able to find exact verse.

My understanding says, 'I shall follow your instructions' means being neutral to likes and dislikes. This means being neutral to moha. Arjuna didn't fight because of attachment. He was also worrying about consequences after fight and what people will think.

Kshatriya was a svadharma of Arjuna and earlier he had fought his Guru Drona while rescuing cows.

One can only be neutral if one remains detached.

Lets talk practically. If you do not have desire to do a particular work, will you do that work?

Generally people do not bother to do work in which they have no interest.

If there is vairagya and one sees this world as adobe of sorrows, understands that nothing is permanent AND has experienced love of God, then it is like tiger tasting blood :) Such person will not be inclined to do work. He will not take any new initiative. Life just rolls on.

On the other hand, his interest in chanting God's name increases, hence his main focus in life will be to chant God's name.

You do not attend a party or a social function because you prefer chanting God's name.

There are two things

Dispassion
Inclination towards God

As I have said, one cannot be a witness and at the same time act. This feeling and state of mind is something difficult to explain, but I can say that such person experiences deep peace and bliss.

So on a path that up-roots desires, will you keep adding new desires and thoughts? You will just finish the 'unfinished business' - prarabhdha :), as it is like a push given to you in your past life. Until the force nullifies, you have not option but to keep rolling

OM

devotee
07 May 2014, 11:14 PM
Namaste Satay and Amrut,

Let's revisit Bhagwad Gita verses 18.59 and 18.60, 18.63 and 18.73 and see what it offers :

18.59 and 18.60 :

If by taking your stand based on egoism, you think, "I will not fight", your this resolve is in vain as your nature will drive you to the act." That action too which you are unwilling to undertake due to your delusion, you will perforce perform bound by your own duty born of your nature."

18.63 :

This highly confidential knowledge has been imparted to you by me, now do as you wish to do.



18.73

By your grace, my delusion is destroyed and I have gained wisdom and I am free of doubts. I shall act as per your wishes.


.....

So, what is the message ? Arjuna has no choice whether to fight or not. He must fight as it is destined for him. It is fixed as per his guna and karma with which he is born. He has only two choices in real sense :

a) Fight with attachment to the result of the war
b) Fight remaining non-attached to the result of war.

By selecting first choice, he suffers the fruits of karma and by selecting the second he gets liberated. Now, as he says in 18.73, his delusion is destroyed on getting Gita-gyaan from Lord Krishna and therefore, he will fight with non-attachment to the results of war as God has advised him.

OM

Amrut
08 May 2014, 12:07 AM
Namaste Satay and Amrut,

Let's revisit Bhagwad Gita verses 18.59 and 18.60, 18.63 and 18.73 and see what it offers :

18.59 and 18.60 :

If by taking your stand based on egoism, you think, "I will not fight", your this resolve is in vain as your nature will drive you to the act." That action too which you are unwilling to undertake due to your delusion, you will perforce perform bound by your own duty born of your nature."

18.63 :

This highly confidential knowledge has been imparted to you by me, now do as you wish to do.



18.73

By your grace, my delusion is destroyed and I have gained wisdom and I am free of doubts. I shall act as per your wishes.


.....

So, what is the message ? Arjuna has no choice whether to fight or not. He must fight as it is destined for him. It is fixed as per his guna and karma with which he is born. He has only two choices in real sense :

a) Fight with attachment to the result of the war
b) Fight remaining non-attached to the result of war.

By selecting first choice, he suffers the fruits of karma and by selecting the second he gets liberated. Now, as he says in 18.73, his delusion is destroyed on getting Gita-gyaan from Lord Krishna and therefore, he will fight with non-attachment to the results of war as God has advised him.

OM

Namaste Devotee ji,

Was this fight a prarabhdha or a personal choice?

18.63 :

This highly confidential knowledge has been imparted to you by me, now do as you wish to do.

18.62 Take refuge in Him alone with your whole being, O scion of the Bharata dynasty. Through His grace you will attain the supreme Peace and the eternal Abode.

Can fight give peace?

OM

devotee
08 May 2014, 12:31 AM
Namaste Amrut,

BG 18.63 gives Free-will but it is not so in real sense as 18.59 and 18.60 declare that "nature" of Arjuna will force him to fight. So, the destiny is created when nature of Arjuna was created. He must fight. He has no choice. Lord Krishna is quite emphatic in His statement in verse 18.59 and 60 that he actually has no choice.

... and still he has choice for getting attached to the Karmaphala or remain unattached with the whole thing.

***************
In my opinion, in events of high importance, like Mahabharata war, the participants have no much choice as the characters acting in that event are specially chosen for the purpose and their are forced to act as per their nature, even if they try not to act.

OM

devotee
08 May 2014, 12:33 AM
Namaste,

"By taking refuge in Me, you will attain peace."

That is a different issue and yet related with this issue. When refuge is taken in Him then how can one refuse to act as per His wish ? If refuge is really taken in God, then person would surrender and would not resist his nature and thus attain peace.

OM

Amrut
08 May 2014, 12:39 AM
Namaste,

May I add Shiva Gita chapter 7.30

If it is like that (everything is illusion - referred from last verse), then vedas and karma kand will be useless. but this is not so. Ones having faith in yagya, karmakand you bestow them the fruits, as they act as karta, but after one acquires mahapunya, then one realizes Brahmanand knows that all these prapanch is non-different than you, then will you give fruits of karma? meaning you do not give fruits of karma to a realized soul., then karmakand becomes ineffective (asiddha).

--

It means that after Self Realization, vedas nad karmakand becomes useless, not before. Shiva does not give fruits of karma to a Jnani.

OM

devotee
08 May 2014, 12:48 AM
Namaste,



May I add Shiva Gita chapter 7.30

If it is like that (everything is illusion - referred from last verse), then vedas and karma kand will be useless. but this is not so. Ones having faith in yagya, karmakand you bestow them the fruits, as they act as karta, but after one acquires mahapunya, then one realizes Brahmanand knows that all these prapanch is non-different than you, then will you give fruits of karma? meaning you do not give fruits of karma to a realized soul., then karmakand becomes ineffective (asiddha).

--

It means that after Self Realization, vedas nad karmakand becomes useless, not before. Shiva does not give fruits of karma to a Jnani.


Quite true ! But we cannot apply concept of Self-realisation here as Lord is not asking to go for Self-realisation in above verses (though it may be final goal) but to go for action. It is about Karma Yoga and not Gyaan Yoga.

In Gyaan Yoga, on Self-realisation, the Karma of Yogi doesn't bear fruit as there is no doer but Lord Krishna assures that non-attachment to Karmaphala also keeps you free from sufferings of Karma.

OM

Amrut
08 May 2014, 01:38 AM
Namaste,



Quite true ! But we cannot apply concept of Self-realisation here as Lord is not asking to go for Self-realisation in above verses (though it may be final goal) but to go for action. It is about Karma Yoga and not Gyaan Yoga.

In Gyaan Yoga, on Self-realisation, the Karma of Yogi doesn't bear fruit as there is no doer but Lord Krishna assures that non-attachment to Karmaphala also keeps you free from sufferings of Karma.

OM

Namaste,

Agree.

Looks like I missed some of your replies.

The path depends upon the nature of person. For Arjuna, it is karma yoga.

so the path is from sakama to nishkama to akarma sthiti

So if your nature is of doing karma and fighting, then why would one go opposite to your basic nature?

In case of Vidur, he did not fight.

Also note that until Arjuna's moha is destroyed, Arjuna didnt fight, though war was going on :)

So is it first GYAna and then karma? Is it first ISvara and then the world?

Else Krishna would have ordered him to fight and then given him GYAna.

It nails down to free will v/s prarabhdha

For the one who is fully surrendered, there is no free will. So prarabhdha will extinguish and no new karma will be created.

For the one with free will, his future can be changed, but then the karma will be sakama

Am I right?

OM

hinduism♥krishna
08 May 2014, 02:16 AM
a-karma is inaction.

Akarma is the inaction of Karma prescribed by Shastra. It is not the inaction practiced by Sages.


There are innumerable sages who were exhausted while arguing about karma according to their convictions and opinions, but in vain!

There are three types of Karma : 1] Karma 2] Akarma 3]Vikarma
Even the God Brahma could not define these divisions properly, so what hope can others have?

Vedas are the root of Karma and Narayana is the Veda incarnate. So the Shrutis and Darshanas had to be quiet while thinking about the sentences like “You are that!” Though all the three categories are one in a sense, yet there are differences.

Sugar has three qualities. It appears white, it is smooth, sweet, but sugar is one material.
Similarly, the persons who have knowledge about Karma, separate it in three categories.If the sweetness of sugar is left out of consideration then its whiteness and smoothness remain.
If its whiteness is left out, the smoothness and sweetness remain. Similarly, if Karma is separated, then the Akarma and Vikarma are still to be reckoned.

That which arises out of any transaction is Karma; and actions, which are either sanctioned or not sanctioned, are called Vikarma.

Karma comes into being and develops from Akarma that is the stage and power of Atman, and one who can discern this basic karma in the activities sanctioned or not sanctioned by Law, is able to attain the stage of Nishkarmata (the state of complete freedom from action) by the grace of his Guru.

When there is super-imposition of karma upon karma, it is called Vikarma, (Specialized karma as duty) and when no action can take place at all, it is called Akarma and rightly so.

The words Vikarma and Adharma are used, which means that there is lack of Dharma in that Vikarma. But do not suppose that Akarma means lack of Dharma. Akarma is that state to which the bondage of karma does not touch even if we try, and it also means Nishkarma, the state of freedom from karma, which also means real Dharma by which the sages have attained ‘Absolute Freedom’.

The person who understands real actionless gets immediately free from Bondage of action and Freedom becomes his servant. :)

devotee
08 May 2014, 11:31 PM
Namaste,



The path depends upon the nature of person. For Arjuna, it is karma yoga.

so the path is from sakama to nishkama to akarma sthiti

So if your nature is of doing karma and fighting, then why would one go opposite to your basic nature?

In case of Vidur, he did not fight.

Exactly !


Also note that until Arjuna's moha is destroyed, Arjuna didnt fight, though war was going on :)

So is it first GYAna and then karma? Is it first ISvara and then the world?

Else Krishna would have ordered him to fight and then given him GYAna.

I would like to differ here a bit or may be we are saying same things differently :

Yes, Arjuna was deluded by his wrong understanding of Dharma. So, GyAna was necessary to make him aware of his right path. But this is not Self-realisation. It is not GyAna of a Self-realised yogi. It is preaching. It is clarification which removes the cobwebs in mind but it is not illumination. Arjuna was deluded due to what he learnt from elders and other scriptures, teachers etc. and the way he tried to apply those teachings at the wrong time. What was Arjuna's delusion ?

a) How can he fight against his own people ?
b) Will this war not lead to destruction of his own clan and Arjuna will share the blame for this destruction ?
c) Will this destruction not lead to further downfall of society ?
d) How can one fight against his own teacher ? Is not sinful ?
e) If this war was for gaining wealth and luxurious life of a King and for gaining power, it was a sin by killing all those people.
f) So, why not choose Ahimsaa (non-violence) in place of Himsaa (violence) ?

Therefore, a clarification was required on what path was right one at that moment. It was a discourse on Dharma where Lord Krishna talks on various aspects of Dharma (Karma Yoga, GyAn yoga & Bhakti Yoga) but emphasizes on Karma Yoga as it was war-time. It doesn't mean that after this preaching Arjuna got Self-realised.


It nails down to free will v/s prarabhdha

For the one who is fully surrendered, there is no free will. So prarabhdha will extinguish and no new karma will be created.

For the one with free will, his future can be changed, but then the karma will be sakama

Am I right?


Yes. However, there are some finer points here. One who has surrendered himself fully (to God), doesn't desire anything for himself. He leaves everything to God. Therefore, the law of : "Yoga-kshema wahamyaham" works and Lord takes care of everything for him. All his karma-account get merged with God and therefore these karma don't bear fruit.

When one uses his free-will, he can use it for his worldly desires and also for making himself free from worldly bondage. Because by using his free-will correctly, he can change his samskaar/impressions of past lives. If he uses his free-will to attain worldly desires, he gets bound by the fruits of Karma. But this same free-will can be used to destroy the bondage of this world.

OM

satay
09 May 2014, 10:16 AM
Namaste devotee,


Namaste Amrut,

BG 18.63 gives Free-will but it is not so in real sense as 18.59 and 18.60 declare that "nature" of Arjuna will force him to fight. So, the destiny is created when nature of Arjuna was created. He must fight. He has no choice. Lord Krishna is quite emphatic in His statement in verse 18.59 and 60 that he actually has no choice.

... and still he has choice for getting attached to the Karmaphala or remain unattached with the whole thing.


This is an interesting point (bolding mine). Thanks for that.



the participants have no much choice as the characters acting in that event are specially chosen for the purpose and their are forced to act as per their nature, even if they try not to act.

OM

Aren't we all?

We the regular babus of this world are in a similar situation thus the beauty and relevance of gita which can be applied in situations happening to us right here right now.

Amrut
10 May 2014, 07:59 AM
Namaste,

HLK, thanks for the input. Honestly, I will have to re-read your post to understand vikarma

Devotee ji,

I agree with what you say. As far as Arjun was concerned, it was his nature to fight and he was qualified to karma kand, hence these instructions. I also agree with your point that characters of mahabharata were destined to do some work and Arjuna had definite role to play.

But if we apply Gita to our daily life, there are certain loop holes.

Again, it boils down to free will and prarabhdha.

A simple question is that Vidura was also present, but since he was a jnani, it chose not to fight.

A question arises in my mind.

People take sanyas. In case of many saints, their kundali and plam readings says that they will marry and will have children. But they have become sanyasin.

If we take the case of Adi Sankara, why he left his mother, when his father had died? She needed him the most. Vivekananda also left his poor mother. Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi left their mother even after their father had died. Same is the case with chaitanya mahaprabhu. There are cases of many saints who have left home when their family needed them.

So instead of taking sanyas, they should have taken responsibility and not run away from them.

Out of four purusharthas, dharma and moksha are not totally dependent upon prarabhdha. You will have to make an effort. It is your choice whether you will devote entire life for God or be in samsara.

artha and kama are dependent upon prarabhdha.

e.g. if your father has left Rs. 5 lakh then even you have not done any purushartha to earn 5 lakh, you get them. Now you can spend it or invest money. Suppose if you invest and after few years say 5 years you get 6 lakhs. You got 1 lakh extra due to your effort. Now if in your prarabhdha if you have to suffer certain loss in business, then in this case 6 lakhs come in handy.

Prarabhdha is such that whether you like it or not, you will have to pass through certain phase of life.

Suppose you renounce your own guru, is it in your prarabhdha to leave your Guru? OR is your Ego trying to justify your action?

In life we do have a choice. Marriage is optional, but if you decide to marry, I think that you may get attracted to a girl with whom you have karmic ties, BUT, if you decide to walk on path of renunciation, then God takes care of these karmic bonds. What happens to the prarabhdha in this case?

If one says that it's all in prarabhdha, I would not agree. Even in my case, I was told that I am going to get married at this age. after that age passed, they gave me another age of marriage. That too passed. So where there is prarabhdha? It's my choice whether to marry or not.

But the pain that I have to suffer I will have to suffer in one way or another, whether I marry or not.

For those who have done intense sadhana in past lives, for them, their prarabhdha gives them excellent opportunity to attain moksha. but it is only any opportunity. You will grab it with both hands. If I chose from today I will not meditate, then God may make me realize one to twice, but if I remain adamant, then what will happen?

If you have not attained inner purity, you have a prakruti of doing karma, still, you chose the path of renunciation, because it appeals to your intellect, then this is not a right choice. Better live in samsara then to live like a monk.

If Gita only talks about karma kand, then there is no meaning of Jnana kand. If prarabhdha is all mighthy, then there is no need of sadhana, or guru as if it is in your prarabhdha, then whether you make effort to meditate or not, you will reach the goal, but this is not the case.

For Arjun, we all know that all pandavas went to svarga, as they were on the path of karma. Hence in case of Arjuna, as an individual, his prakruti was to fight, he was also chosen for a certain work to establish dharma, hence he was told to take part in war.

Had Arjun, by intense tapas transformed his chitta in pure sattvik, then the decision would be different. If a disciple is fully matured, then will his guru drag in karma kand?

But if we take Arjun as a representative of seeker, then Gita will end with nasto moha smritir labdha

Our himalayan tradition says that once disciple is fully matured, then Guru leaves him. disciple needs to external Avalamban (support), not even support of Guru, his own atman will guide him. He knows the path, has regular glimpse of it, all he needs to do is to sit and meditate. You see your destination and see it is near. All you need to do is to walk. After moksha, disciple comes back to guru and offers him his gratitude and says, 'my delusion is gone and I know my true nature'. Guru in return says, 'do as you like', and disciple replies, 'since I have got Jnana through you, I will do as you say'

We do have choice. But if a rajas guni becomes a sanyasin, he will build an ashram of 300 rooms, because his neighbor swamiji has built an ashram of 200 rooms :)

svadharma or prakruti is an important factor in taking any decisions.

Hari OM

devotee
11 May 2014, 05:46 AM
Namaste,


Aren't we all?

We the regular babus of this world are in a similar situation thus the beauty and relevance of gita which can be applied in situations happening to us right here right now.

Yes, we all are. In the grand scheme of God's play we are created with specific natures to play our roles but then we must not forget our dharma to act in the best possible ways as Bhagwad Gita advises us.




But if we apply Gita to our daily life, there are certain loop holes.

Again, it boils down to free will and prarabhdha.

You have raised very important and finer points on this issue. There are a few things which in my opinion, we must take carefully into account to understand how it all works. The whole game can be seen at micro level and again at macro level. In my opinion, at macro level ... the higher we go, things are more or less more deterministic. At micro level, there is some freedom which allows various optional paths that a sequence of events can form leading to the final status at macro level. Even at micro level, finally things are deterministic on long term basis. That is why it is said that everyone is moving towards liberation alone (if we discount the factor of time).

But what you say is also very important otherwise the laws of karma would become meaningless. So, everything is not deterministic at individual level unless it is such an important event where one's role has been predetermined by making a special nature for the purpose as was for the war of MahAbhArata. My understanding after reading writings of some great saints is that whatever happens to us at individual level is determined by 65 % of prarabdha (i.e. Karma of the past) and 35 % of free-willed actions of present.
This is why a being is born in certain Kula, grows in a certain environment, gets different opportunities which appear to be just by chance. Therefore, if you are trying to go completely against your prarabdha, it may be extremely difficult and may not be possible at all unless you meet someone with very powerful mind to help you out as a special case. Mostly we tend to act as per our in-born gunas while also applying our will power to overcome our weaknesses and moving towards our goals. Our contribution of 35 % is very important and the more we work on it the better for us.

... This free-willed act of 35 % can liberate us in this world itself, as Lord Krishna assures us in Bhagwad Gita Chapter 6, sloka 45.

OM

Amrut
11 May 2014, 11:59 AM
Namaste Devotee ji,

I agree with you and understand your point very well.

specially


This is why a being is born in certain Kula, grows in a certain environment, gets different opportunities which appear to be just by chance. Therefore, if you are trying to go completely against your prarabdha, it may be extremely difficult and may not be possible at all unless you meet someone with very powerful mind to help you out as a special case. Mostly we tend to act as per our in-born gunas while also applying our will power to overcome our weaknesses and moving towards our goals.Going against inborn prakruti is unwise.

For one who live a pure spiritual life or has moksha as the only goal, ISvara takes care of him/her ... and ISvara does not make you do anything against your unborn prakruti.

For masses, suitable path should be selected that helps one progress spiritually and also do his/her duty to family and this world honestly.

BUT, if one is not spiritual, and if anything wrong happens AND one does not raise their voice against injustice, thinking at it is an act of God or it is in our prarabhdha, then society may become unprotected.

Our shastras ask us to protect ourselves and kshatriyas (anyone with fighting spirit) should take a lead.

Rules for sanyasin and average householder are different. Householder has his own responsibilities. But one should spare some time for atmic upliftment.

Sanyasins are one is a lakh. They live different life and remain neutral to whatever is happening around. But average Hindu has to stay alert, fight for unjustice, take side of dharma and live without fear. Side by Side s/he should practice spirituality also.

EDIT:

All forms of God be it Rama, Krishna, Shiva, GAnesha, Skanda, Amba Mata, et al have weapons in hands. They are not for destructive purpose. For sanyasins, they indicate mental fight with internal enemies like kama, krodha, lobha, moha, ahamkara. This mental fight is to fight with fighting :)

For laymen, one should be alert, free from fear and raise their voice against injustice.

OM

aupmanyav
06 July 2014, 06:57 AM
Premise 2: Desire is a necessary condition of action.I have not gone through the whole thread, Wondermonk, which I will do. But the answer is very simple. It is just the second chapter of BhagawadGita, and Lord Krishna is trying to make Arjuna fight. Arjuna is not yet enlightened, therefore, the carrot - 'winning you will rule the earth'. This would not make any difference to an enlightened person. If an enlightened person would act, he would do so because 'dharma' requires it. Arjuna finally becomes enlightened in the 18th chapter. At that time he will know the correct course of action without any rewards (ma phaleshu kadachana).

yajvan
06 July 2014, 02:19 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

I have not gone through the whole thread, Wondermonk, which I will do. But the answer is very simple. It is just the second chapter of BhagawadGita, and Lord Krishna is trying to make Arjuna fight. Arjuna is not yet enlightened, therefore, the carrot - 'winning you will rule the earth'. This would not make any difference to an enlightened person. If an enlightened person would act, he would do so because 'dharma' requires it. Arjuna finally becomes enlightened in the 18th chapter. At that time he will know the correct course of action without any rewards (ma phaleshu kadachana).

Please consider starting off your post with a hello, or a namasté , or some salutation.

It is our custom here to do this...we ask you to join in on this custom. It has taken YEARS to get to this level of civility on HDF. It is done by these simple matters of hello, and the like. I ask again for your cooperation on this matter.

iti śivaṁ

M.Krishna
26 October 2014, 12:15 PM
This is Desire for RESULTS and NOT Actions. in fact Desire for Action should not decrease !!! This is a very common mistake of understanding. Hence a great question for many of us.