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Soul of Light
18 May 2014, 04:16 AM
Namaste all!
I wanted to know that in meditation of lord shiva or any other god what should we do? Means meditate on god what exactly mean and time n effect of meditation on god..?
Waiting for you expert advice
Thank You!!!

ganeshamylord
18 May 2014, 03:30 PM
Start with His beej mantra HAUM
Trust me this is the supreme beeja. It is called the "prasada beeja" the beeja of mercy. You will become god loved and you will radiate divinity and everyone in your vicinity will benefit from it

After you finish one lakh japas of HAUM you can continue with
AUM HAUM JOOOM SAHA'
which is the mahamrityunjaya beeja,the unbeatable mantra of destruction of death.

Another mantra is AUM HAUM NAMAH SHIVAYA

ganeshamylord
18 May 2014, 03:31 PM
Also make sure you meditate on the linga form of the lord in the third eye ajna chakra kshetra(space between the eyebrow)

Soul of Light
19 May 2014, 04:01 AM
Thank you ganeshamylord,
I'll follow this beej mantras while meditating...
Om gam ganapataye namah :)

Amrut
25 May 2014, 10:08 AM
Namaste,

The basic mantra for meditation on Lord Shiva is OM Namah Shivaya. This is the beej mantra and is given in Sri Rudram, which is a part of veda-s (Taittiriya Samhita)

Initially you may gaze to Lord Shiva's photo or idol and keep the image in mind while chanting mantra.

Else simply chant his name for 5-10 minutes and then gradually increase the time by say 1 min. Some increase mantra by 5 number after each week. In this way you can gradually increase your time duration. 45 minutes should be the target. Later on the target can be increased.

You can take help of japa mala or you can chant without japa mala. There is no posture, but you should sit and chant in a comfortable position in early morning. Wake up early and push yourself until you you wake up at 3:30 or 4:30 in the morning.

Chant mantra as same place same time. When thoughts come, do not force mind to focus back on mantra. Simply be aware of thoughts, even though your mind may be full of thoughts. Explain yourself that this is not right time to solve any issues. I wish to chant the name of Shiva. Pray to Lord to take away all thoughts and fill you with divine thoughts of Shiva. Keep praying 4-5 times and then again start chanting mantra.

Start japa by praying to Lrod. Pray ot Shiva

Oh God I have come at your refuge, please accept me. Shower your grace.
Give me intense desire for liberation
Please guide me, myself and give me what is best for me

While meditating always have faith that Shiva will take care of everything including your body and Shiva is all powerful. Shiva will remove all thoughts and will fill the mind with bliss and Shiva tatva.

If too many thoughts come, take a break, leave the premises and come back after 1 min. Start again.

When you decide to leave meditation, then pray to Shiva to keep you immersed in him.

Always have faith the Lord who has created the universe and who is the supreme controller will always take care of you. Always have faith -Ishvara hai - God exists - Shiva always exists.

Do not try to force your mind to bring back focus. Thoughts are natural. Just be aware of thought and think that I am not thought, I am pure Consciousness, I am Shiva (auspiciousness, kalyANkArI AtmA). Thoughts cannot influence me. Only name of Lord Shiva will influence me.

Pray to Shiva, Oh Shiva take away all thoughts, take away all negativity and fill me with sattvik thoughts and sattvik bhAva (emotions)

After finishing medition (japa) pray to Shiva

O Shiva, thank you for your compassion, your guidance and your mercy. Please keep guiding me thought the life day and night. Please make me keep chanting your name. I should never forget you.

Then chant mantra 4-5 times and leave meditation.

If possible, sit in Shiva temple and chant his name. If not daily then atleast within a week visit temple when there is less crowd and chant Siva-nAma

You can keep a photo of Shiva in your pocket or in your drawer or in front of you somewhere in your room so that you can have a glance at him.

A simple 4'' x 6'' size photo is enough. You can to may not worship photo.

Om Namah Shivaya

Soul of Light
25 May 2014, 12:33 PM
Thank you amrut ji for illustrating, explaining the whole process.... :)

saswathy
31 May 2014, 11:24 PM
Aum is the promordial sound . It is the essence and substance of all manthras . It is very easy to do . Shiva is the embodyment of that manthra . So try to do Aum manthra which is the first step an last step in Shivaradhana . Best wishes .

Amrut
01 June 2014, 03:03 AM
Aum is the promordial sound . It is the essence and substance of all manthras . It is very easy to do . Shiva is the embodyment of that manthra . So try to do Aum manthra which is the first step an last step in Shivaradhana . Best wishes .

Namaste,

I know that Siva is connected with OM, still I would not recommend anyone to chant OM. OM will neutralize everything in your mind, be it positive or negative and will directly take meditator to the 4th state, which is above guNa-s. OM represents nirAkAra brahman.

If you have some desires left andare not ready to renounce them mentally, AND if you chant OM, then life will become hell. In meditation, OM will try to uproot that desire, and in practical life, you will try to achieve your dream.

I will not recommend chanting OM to anyone.

Namah Shivay

saswathy
01 June 2014, 08:16 AM
Dear friend ,
since you quoted -----
'' Asathoma sathgamaya ,
Thamasoma jyothirgamaya ,
Mrithyorma amrithagamaya , ''
I advised you to chant ' OM '. If sadhana is only a part of life , if it is meant for the realisation , rather materialisation of some materialistic things , then ' Om' is not suggested by the so called swamijis and babas .
But to some one , who has burning thirst for the realisation of self , '' Om'' is highly recommended .

Amrut
01 June 2014, 10:13 AM
Dear friend ,
since you quoted -----
'' Asathoma sathgamaya ,
Thamasoma jyothirgamaya ,
Mrithyorma amrithagamaya , ''
I advised you to chant ' OM '. If sadhana is only a part of life , if it is meant for the realisation , rather materialisation of some materialistic things , then ' Om' is not suggested by the so called swamijis and babas .
But to some one , who has burning thirst for the realisation of self , '' Om'' is highly recommended .

Dear Friend,

Quotes are different :) They indicates your liking. They do not denote if a person has burning desire for liberation.

OM is not recommended for everyone. Mostly people following Advaita chant OM as the only mantra. There are yogi-s and tAntrik-s too who chant OM, but they concentrate more on energy or power connected with OM. Finally both reach same destination.

If our young friend has burning desire for liberation, then sooner or later his guru will find him.

I am meditating on OM since many years. What I wrote was my personal experience and info passed onto me.

Hari OM

brahma jijnasa
01 June 2014, 12:18 PM
Namaste Soul of Light

Namaste all!
I wanted to know that in meditation of lord shiva or any other god what should we do?

If you read Bhagavad gita (http://vedabase.net/bg/en) carefully, slowly and thoroughly you will learn a lot about what it actually means of how to "meditate on God". Here are some typical examples:


"Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend." (Bhagavad gita 18.65)

Here the Lord says "Always think of Me" which means we should always remember Him. You can remember the form of the Lord in the temple (murti) or on the picture.
You know, repeating mantra is just one way of how we can meditate on God, but there are other ways also.


"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bhagavad gita 4.9)

See what Lord Krishna says here. He says that we should know about His transcendental nature, appearance and activities. You can read the Puranas such as Bhagavatam and there a description of Lord Krishna's birth and activities usually called "pastimes" (lilas), and you can remember all this later. It would also mean to "meditate on God". ;)

By performing everyday work and duties we can also "meditate on God":


"One who works in devotion (yoga-yuktaḥ), who is a pure soul, and who controls his mind and senses is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to him. Though always working, such a man is never entangled." (Bhagavad gita 5.7)

Here it says yoga-yuktaḥ "engaged in devotional service" or engaged in work with a sense of devotion and dedication to God that is called "yoga". This also means to "meditate on God". ;)


mac-cittā mad-gata-prāṇā ... (Bhagavad gita 10.9)

Here the Lord says mat-cittāḥ "their minds fully engaged in Me" and mat-gata-prāṇāḥ "their lives devoted to Me".
See all this is meditation on God, just we have to learn it in practice.

You know, some people will tell you that to "meditate on God" it is only when you repeat mantra, or when you sit in a yogic position for meditation or something. But Lord Krishna teaches us that meditation is much, much more than that. It's continuous dedication to God with devotion through remembrance, performing work, offering food, etc.
In fact your whole life can be, see above mat-cittāḥ and mat-gata-prāṇāḥ (Bg 10.9), your continuous dedication to God with devotion (bhakti), and thus continuous meditation on God.
Read Bhagavad gita thoroughly and you'll learn a lot about what is meditation on God.


regards

Soul of Light
02 June 2014, 03:14 AM
Dear friend ,
since you quoted -----
'' Asathoma sathgamaya ,
Thamasoma jyothirgamaya ,
Mrithyorma amrithagamaya , ''
I advised you to chant ' OM '. If sadhana is only a part of ife , if it is meant for the realisation , rather materialisation of some materialistic things , then ' Om' is not suggested by the so called swamijis and babas .
But to some one , who has burning thirst for the realisation of self , '' Om'' is highly recommended .

Namaste saswathy ji,
yes, you are right. I have thirst for my lord shiva and knowledge, it is my exteme goal.
From my opinion, Mantra is not only the word but itself consist of lots of energy (power). From my personal view, everyone's perception is different, one can feel different energy from mantra, and have a different benefits from it regarding its perception. One can feel devotion, knowledge, power from the same mantra as Amrut ji feels the nutralisation and maybe you feel self realisation from the same mantra i.e. OM.
Thus, I think I should find out which mantra gives me which energy, and which mantra is made for me!
Thank You for reply..!
Pranam!!

Soul of Light
02 June 2014, 04:18 AM
Namaste,

I know that Siva is connected with OM, still I would not recommend anyone to chant OM. OM will neutralize everything in your mind, be it positive or negative and will directly take meditator to the 4th state, which is above guNa-s. OM represents nirAkAra brahman.

If you have some desires left andare not ready to renounce them mentally, AND if you chant OM, then life will become hell. In meditation, OM will try to uproot that desire, and in practical life, you will try to achieve your dream.

I will not recommend chanting OM to anyone.

Namah Shivay

Namaste Amrut ji,
I don't think so I meditate on OM from many days, before 4-5 years when I am very small I meditate on OM, but its not seriously I meditate and I think not more than 1-2 or 3 minutes or less :p
but from this year, I have that feeling of nutralization even I don't meditate on om. I feel like I can live without thinking a word in my mind which is difficult for some, I don't feel sorrow, hapiness, anger, greediness or any positive or negative thought, I don't think this affect my studies as I came first in class but it surely affect me and my personality as I don't give a slight of attention towards me, I also can't fully concentrate in my duties...
It does not difficult for me to conquer this nutralization but my one mind says it is blessings of god that I am does not attach to any feeling, I didn't expect the feeling of nutralization when I started my spiritual path, at that time I thought that god will make all my wishesh true, and one day he'll give me darshan as in movie, but as time pasess and I get knowledge from lord shiva, my every concept, dream get changed, everything get change
It's just like if you have the most powerful weapon in the world and someone says u never use it..
Like that I can control my mind, I can control my all feelings and that's why I have the capacity to fullfill my all dream, desires and I can get everything in my life by this boon of god, but this feeling of nutralization says me don't do this and my mind confuse about that one can achieve god by being in gunas, karmas and his devotion? Or one can achieve god by detachment, that nutalization and devotion? Means live in gunas is better or live without any guna is better
so what do u think what should I do for this feeling,
Thank you for reply,
Pranam!!

Soul of Light
02 June 2014, 05:09 AM
Namaste Brahma jijnasa ji,
nice Insight, I had read a bhagavat geeta and too believe that one can make his whole life as a meditation,
we are unable to see planets by naked eyes but by the help of telescope we can easily see them just like in this kaliyug we are living with modern technology and in this time it is so difficult to experience, feel and living with god, at that time meditation (closing eyes, visualizing, concentrating on god and chanting) help us to bring to that supreme realisation, I think it is the purpose of meditation... engross in thoughts of god, dedicating each karma to him and thinking about him while performing karma Indeed its meditation as it also bring us to that experience, knowledge, feeling of god and I think much more from this. I am not successful yet to dedicating my whole karma to him and thinking continuously about him, but hope I'll take this in my life..!
Thank You for reminding me geeta and explaining the verses..!
Pranam!! :)

Amrut
03 June 2014, 08:20 AM
Namaste Amrut ji,
I don't think so I meditate on OM from many days, before 4-5 years when I am very small I meditate on OM, but its not seriously I meditate and I think not more than 1-2 or 3 minutes or less :p
but from this year, I have that feeling of nutralization even I don't meditate on om. I feel like I can live without thinking a word in my mind which is difficult for some, I don't feel sorrow, hapiness, anger, greediness or any positive or negative thought, I don't think this affect my studies as I came first in class but it surely affect me and my personality as I don't give a slight of attention towards me, I also can't fully concentrate in my duties...
It does not difficult for me to conquer this nutralization but my one mind says it is blessings of god that I am does not attach to any feeling, I didn't expect the feeling of nutralization when I started my spiritual path, at that time I thought that god will make all my wishesh true, and one day he'll give me darshan as in movie, but as time pasess and I get knowledge from lord shiva, my every concept, dream get changed, everything get change
It's just like if you have the most powerful weapon in the world and someone says u never use it..
Like that I can control my mind, I can control my all feelings and that's why I have the capacity to fullfill my all dream, desires and I can get everything in my life by this boon of god, but this feeling of nutralization says me don't do this and my mind confuse about that one can achieve god by being in gunas, karmas and his devotion? Or one can achieve god by detachment, that nutalization and devotion? Means live in gunas is better or live without any guna is better
so what do u think what should I do for this feeling,
Thank you for reply,
Pranam!!

Namaste SOL,

This is exactly that I have said to Saswathy. OM will neutralize all your demands. So even if you have opportunity, still you will not be attracted towards it, as OM takes you beyond 3 gunas. Everything is within 3 gunas and to experience anything mind is required. OM takes you beyond mind. If you keep longing for desires, then how can you transcend maya? how can you rise above 3 gunas?

Brother, I have been meditating on OM since 8-9 years. I know what it feels like. I have given ppt (power point presentation) in front of India's well-known prof and scientist and industrialists with 'blank mind'. Most time I stay blank. I do not remember what you say. Even now I simply type. there is no planning in whatever I do. I experience bliss even when I am typing this. I know that this does not interfere with your studies too.

So if you have burning desire for liberation AND no other desire, then OM is ok, infact the best. Both Krishna and Shiva associate themselves with OM. One upanishad Mandukya upanishad is dedicated to explaining OM. OM is mentioned in most of the upanishads. OM can control everything. Hence you feel that the power is within you. But it is known that power is poison, hence OM will make you 'neutral', so there is no urge to acquire anything. Om is the only tatva than can effortlessly transcend you beyond maya into the fourth state - turiya.

If you wish to walk in this path, then be ready to renounce everything mentally. Physically you may not need to renounce money, but surely you will have to neutralize any bias, want or wish to have it (if you have any).

Initially you may not feel neither sorrow nor happiness, but after passing through this dull phase, which is like being heated in furnace, you will finally feel calmness, relief, light and a first glimpse of bliss. this internal happiness is very long lasting.

A personal experience

Once when I was doing jogging, suddenly, I felt bliss and peace. My internal state was very peaceful. I did jogging for 25 minutes, no change in this bliss, then I did some physical exercise like dips, ab-exercise, still no change in bliss, then sun began to rise, heat increased, still my calmness, coolness, inner bliss remained in changed. I did pranayam, and then did shirshashan, still no change in bliss. then I realized that there is no need of keeping body fit, and my concern for my own body faded away. After that day, I never did any kind of exercise nor any kind of asana or pranayam. I simply meditated on OM. Everything seemed perfect, all are happy. This was my feeling those days.

From this days, I could not even concentrate on my duties. I never take any initiatives even in my business. Everything flows naturally accordingly to the will of God and according to prarabhdha.

Only if I take initiative or take give undue importance to any person or object, be it father or mother, then my peace and so meditation is disturbed. Else everything remains peaceful, as mind is peaceful.

Mind remains peaceful, as this bliss and peace is born out of vairagya (absence of material thoughts), dispassion. Hence this bliss does not depend upon any external object or person, so there is no question of loosing this happiness when the object is consumed or when a person leaves you. there is no fear of loss of objects or person, as you do not depend upon them.

Still in practical life, you will work as you use to. Gita says to transcend 3 gunas, but in practical life stay in sattva guna (chapte r3). So for practical living, maintian duality, but increase sattva guna by doing acts of sattvik nature. while meditating, be at peace with what is and ... transcend what is

Are you getting it? or are you bored with this long lecture? still some more to come :D

Less work, less responsibility

Sri Ramakrishna says, when a lady gets pregnant, she is not given too much work, as month of delivery approach, less work is given, after 7 months of pregancy, little work is given. After delivery, no work is given. Her only work is to take care of child. This child is Jnana (GYAna).

So when karma kand comes to an end, God wont keep you on hot seat. You will work, you will study, you will score marks and work and study with whole-heartedly. Still this time there is no inner rush, no violence within ourselves, violence of thoughts. Later on speed of thoughts in meditation and in practical life also decrease.

All this happens by the grace of God.

The duality of mind

One side says I want to do this
another side says, no, no I do not want.

This happens to me too.

Mind is divided into two - viveki and a viveki. the positive mind will say, not to do and negative will say I want this.

e.g.

I used to watch TV. One day, I was told to stop watching and in that time, do some spiritual activity.

So one part of me says, watch TV, other part say, no dont watch.

this dvanda, dual nature is experienced by me too. God himself will give you good thoughts. Bad thoughts, or thoughts of material nature make you realize that that you still have them within your mind, as you must have dumped them in past or in past lives.

If you goal is moksha nand are ready to leave everything, then you will decide wisely. Often strong / bold decisions are required. Mind should be strong.

If you are willing to go, then go for it, good luck, but if you want bhoga and yoga, then Om is not for you.

All have desires, what is important is to be mentally prepared to renounce them. To apply this renunciation in your life, a certain level of purity is a must, else all plan will back fire and a day will come when you will not like to meditate, your mind will resist sitting in meditation and you will curse me too ;)

This is the reason I ask you again and again - Are you ready?

If you are the end reward is immortality, eternal freedom in this pife while staying in physical body. The bliss and deep peace is unshakable.


OM

Amrut

saswathy
03 June 2014, 11:53 AM
Dear SOL ,
The way you show your intense bhakthi to Shiva is highly intoxicating .But shiva of the trio -- Brahma , Vishnu , Maheswara is different from the paramewshwara, the supreme power .''Om ' pertains to him , though ultimately everything leads to the same. best wishes.

Soul of Light
05 June 2014, 08:53 AM
Namaste Amrut ji,
Thanx for reply, I understand your whole post except this sentences

If you keep longing for desires, then how can you transcend maya? how can you rise above 3 gunas?
in this sentences are u telling that if we keep lnging for desires then we can't transcend maya? Or are u asking me how can I transcend maya? :p sorry but I have confusion so I ask...
Now about OM and what I want! So I tell you what I want in pm and I think it is better to discuss in pm as it seems fast, as we get shortcut from process of moderation :p
Thank You!!
Regards! :)

Soul of Light
05 June 2014, 08:59 AM
Thank you so much saswathy ji,
and I believe

ultimately everything leads to the same.
so god is one and supreme for me and hence lord shiva, lord vishnu, krishna or parameshwar all are one for me and leads to the same!
Thank you for reply..! :)

saswathy
06 June 2014, 02:00 AM
Dear SOL ,
With due respects to our friend , I do believe that Meditation on ' OM' is the best and most fruitful sadhana . It helps in either way , that is , when sadhana had had been done, to the photo finish stage in the previous birth , it would give salvation with this birth or if it has been in a process of continuation it would take to a higher level in this birth . But in any case the ultimate goal of attaining Ananda rasa siddhi is met successfully . No sadhana deprives you of all the pleasures to which you are entitled , either here or hereafter .Spiritual sadhana does not mean deprivation of physical needs . It is given by krishna in the celestial song , that Yogi is not the one who abstains from eating or who eats too much , who does not sleep or sleeps too much, and a real yogi is the one who does everything in moderation .Thus it is also a false notion that ' Om ' meditation makes one a sanyasi . I heard one peethadhipathi telling that 'OM' manthra makes one to renunciate everything and that is the reason why it is not given to householders which is an utter baseless statement . ------ best wishes .

yajvan
06 June 2014, 06:51 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


OM is not recommended for everyone.

I concur. It has become quite in vogue to offer this praṇava¹ as one size fits all ...by people trained and un-trained in this matter. Is it auspicious ? Beyond a doubt. Yet one needs to be clear that the continual repetition is not for the average person - surely not the householder.

But why so ? One is then fragmenting the infinite. This knowledge rarely gets out. One usually starts this practice and cannot continue it for long periods ( we are not talking hours but weeks and months).

yajvan , under whose guidance does this come from ? It comes via svāmī brahmānanda sarasvatī , Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (from 1941-1953). He was my teacher's teacher.

... do as you see fit.


iti śivaṁ

words

This is of interest as we all are aware of praṇava, we all think of Om. In Kasmir Saivism OM is dear and recognized, yet they also see 3 types of pranava.
there's vaidika वैदिक praṇava - Om or the Vedic pranava
śiva praṇava - hum ( as in the mantra śivo-hum )
māyā praṇava - hrīm ( pronounced hreem)

Amrut
07 June 2014, 12:37 PM
yajvan , under whose guidance does this come from ? It comes via svāmī brahmānanda sarasvatī , Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotirmath (from 1941-1953). He was my teacher's teacher.



Namaste Yajvan ji,

Even SankarAcArya of Shringeri math, svAmI bhArtI tirtha also says the same.

There is no ego problem or superiority complex. There is worry behind saying 'No' as Guru should see a seeker should be capable to meditate on OM, else it is the seeker who will suffer.

Thank you for explanation.

Pranams

brahma jijnasa
16 June 2014, 04:47 PM
Namaste

Here I would agree with the opinion of some members such as Amrut and Yajvan who said that mantra Om is not for everyone.

It is said that chanting mantra Om is recommended only for persons who are Brahmanas.
Thus, for example, it is said in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, canto IV, ch. LXXXIII, p. 405, text 49&f:
http://www.archive.org/stream/brahmavaivartapu04allauoft#page/405/mode/1up


"If a person not being a Brahmin pronounces Om, he is degraded"

It seems that only in the modern times it has become customary to advise everyone to practice chanting mantra Om.


regards

ShivaFan
16 June 2014, 07:28 PM
Namaste brahma jijnasa

What are you saying? That only "Brahmanas" should say AUM and that, if I for example say AUM then I am degrading myself because I am not a Brahmin?

I have never been so sad to read what I just read ....

Please do not degrade Om this way, I humbly request that you do not say AUM. Thinking this way, they do not know the nature of Siva, Sadasiva.

Om Namah Sivaya

brahma jijnasa
16 June 2014, 11:56 PM
Namaste ShivaFan

Namaste brahma jijnasa

What are you saying? That only "Brahmanas" should say AUM and that, if I for example say AUM then I am degrading myself because I am not a Brahmin?

I have never been so sad to read what I just read ....

Please do not degrade Om this way, I humbly request that you do not say AUM. Thinking this way, they do not know the nature of Siva, Sadasiva.

Om Namah Sivaya

It seems that chanting mantra Om is a Vedic practice at which a certain condition is supposed, or a certain level of qualification in the person is required. Just as it is said that certain practices such as, for example, the worship of the deity in the temple, offering of food to the deities in the temple, recitation of Shruti Vedic mantras or texts, is not intended for unqualified people, uninitiated or Shudras, likewise practice of chanting mantra Om is not intended for unqualified people.
This however does not mean that unqualified people should never say "Om", but it means that they are not allowed to practice chanting mantra Om as a continuous meditation, ie they are not allowed to practice Om as japa.
Vedic or Brahminical practices always require a certain level of qualification, be it repetition of some Vedic mantras such as Gayatri mantra or Om, or some yogic meditation, etc.


regards

saswathy
17 June 2014, 12:22 AM
Dear friends ,
' Om ' is a manthra , which can be done by any one , irrespective of caste , creed , religion , gender . By the constant meditation on' OM ' a sadhaka is said to attain Parabrahmam . There are no place , time or state constraints for that sadhana . It should go on like the breathing with out any conscious effort on the part of the sadhak . Where it is done as a ritual , there could be certain rules and restrictions . Any other manthra requires a guru and proper initiation . For some beejakshara manthras , there are restrictions conditions like yanthram , thanthram and manthram . But for ' OM ' there are no conditions what so ever .Then coming to the brahmana aspect , the reference is to karma brahmins and not to jathi brahmans .To day we come across very few brahmins who are true to that spirit .But what I heard is ,'' om'' makes a person detached to the core and if young people do that they become recluses . Naturally no parent wants his or her son becomes a recluse and go the way of Siddhartha ----Gowthama buddha .

Amrut
17 June 2014, 02:31 AM
Namaste brahma jijnasa

What are you saying? That only "Brahmanas" should say AUM and that, if I for example say AUM then I am degrading myself because I am not a Brahmin?

I have never been so sad to read what I just read ....

Please do not degrade Om this way, I humbly request that you do not say AUM. Thinking this way, they do not know the nature of Siva, Sadasiva.

Om Namah Sivaya

Namaste SF ji :)

There is no question of degradation.

Ideal BrAhmin living ensures us of gaining certain level of inner purity, which is gained by sincere performance of vedic karma kANDa. Most of this life is washed away.

Keeping varNa issue aside, we can say that certain level of inner purity is needed.

The negative statements are not actually negative. They are said for the good of all. Sometimes not practising is better than wrongly practising.

One of my friend is in contact with shringeri Shankaracharya. He says that OM is only for sanyAsin. sanyAsa is a mental state and not a way of life. After sanyAsa, ther is no caste barrier, but not qualify to take sanyAsa.

If still there is nay problem in understanding, I will simply say that - Is the masses ready for renouncing everything for Siva / rAma?

I have been meditating on OM since 8-10 years. What I have earlier told is from my personal experience and info passed onto me.

Saswathy ji, Lord Buddha even dis-regarded vedA-s, varNa dharma and even sanskrit language. Do you agree with this too.

Again, the statements are made to a certain class of people. Answer depends upon mental make-up of questioner. If adhikAra-bheda is not considered, then ... :(

Please understand, there is no superiority complex.

If you still think, SAstra-s, vedA-s and upanishads are free pick, what can I say.

Quoting Post #8


I know that Siva is connected with OM, still I would not recommend anyone to chant OM. OM will neutralize everything in your mind, be it positive or negative and will directly take meditator to the 4th state, which is above guNa-s. OM represents nirAkAra brahman.

If you have some desires left andare not ready to renounce them mentally, AND if you chant OM, then life will become hell. In meditation, OM will try to uproot that desire, and in practical life, you will try to achieve your dream.

I will not recommend chanting OM to anyone.

ShivaFan
17 June 2014, 08:26 AM
Namaste

I honestly do not personallly know, even among Sanyasas, of Hindus simply "chanting AUM" (by itself) for hours on end - but I do know of and have observed Buddhists doing so, and in a couple of rare cases I saw a Sadhu in Varanasi doing this.

Chanting AUM alone, without "Shiva" or "Narayana" or in praise of Adityas etc., seems to me to be a Buddhist practice and not Vaidika.

I am not saying there are no Hindus who do so, obviously it seems some here say they do that. But from my teaching and observation, AUM is the gateway or door to the mantra or meditation, to the vital sloka, to a scripture, to the praise or offering of the middle followed by the end, and to the prana.

Buddhists like this, because many sects of Buddhism do not like Shiva. They humm AUM for hours on end, because they want to take Siva out of the meditation.

That is why, though I believe from what I have been taught of the purity and power of AUM which cannot degrade anyone, yes I agree and would not recommend simply chanting or humming AUM alone for hours on end, my words however are "not recommend" and never use the word "not allowed" based on the illusions of birth rights and not character. That is an abomination.

I would not recommend a Hindu, especially a householder, doing what seems to me a Buddhist practice, nor do I smile upon some sects of Advaitans turning Hindu or Vaidik rites and stripping away the rite and turning things into "Buddhism lite". Especially, when it comes to rewriting their own Veda to change Saivism.

This is a valid path for some sects of Sadhus, but not even Tantrics and not Saiva or Vaishnav or in worship of forefathers or Surya or Shakta and so on.

Not even for Sanyasa, though there might be historical reasons to see the influence of Buddhism among some since Buddha was born a Hindu.

This is a practice for some Sadhus and Devatas Themself in some cases and not Hindus in general, not for temple priests and so on. Those who insist such practice however and cover it in the sheath of birth restrictions and a "religion" of "not allowed" ironically simply create more new adherents to Buddhism in reaction. And perhaps this was the very agenda of such by Boddisatvas and Buddhists in the first place as a form of "practical joke", where they simply watch and wait for the result, where their patience is as long and broad as the naked sky.

Om Namah Sivaya

Amrut
17 June 2014, 10:44 AM
Namaste ShivaFan ji,

I do not understand why are you dragging Buddhism here. I simply cannot understand why you do not believe that simply chanting OM is not enough.

An entire upanishad, Mandukya Up. is dedicated to explaining OM. OM is found in almost all major upanishads and many more upanishads of muktika cannon.

OM is Hindu mantra, it is chanted by Advaitins, as OM is a form of nirAkAra brahman. It is also chanted by yogis.

I know you are never going to accept varNa system. Caste is different issue. I do not want to discuss it either. Even if you say that varNa is by character, still there is classification on the basis of inner purity.

I am not talking of any other mantra. I never said that one cannot chant OM Namah Shivaya. Still if anyone wishes to chant, I am no one to stop them.

I think that things are taken negatively.

First you dragged Buddhism, then tried to say advaita is non vedic, connected advaita with buddism implying that it is covered buddhism (though you said some sects - am I among these sects?) then tried to screw smArta.

Do you know that Adi Sankara didnt established any sect.

Unlike vaishnava sects, there is no conversion process to practice advaita. If you are not officially converted to Sri Vaishnavism by an acharya, then you do not belong to that particular sect. Same is true for other authentic sampradAya-s. What will you call this system??

The only official system is that of upnayana, where a student is initiated into the gAyatrI mantra. Other than this there is no such conversion process found in veda-s or in dharma smriti-s says kAnchI paramAcArya (ya, you can accuse the entire math)

And do you know that humming OM is only done initially. Later we hear it. OM goes on by itself. It is primordial sound. Yogis can hear this sound.

I do not understand what made you to write all these. Did you met any shankaracharya or his direct disciples. Did you enquire about this? Do you know any one who is not practising advaita or yoga chants OM. I have heard of none.

Whenever there is any issue of something not recommended for someone, even on basis of mental purity, then you will not agree with it and would keep fighting against it.

It is quite unfortunate that you do not hesitate to the extend that you went this time.

I humbly request you to please please re-read your last reply, and contemplate on it.

Hari OM

ShivaFan
17 June 2014, 05:27 PM
Namaste Amrut

I think my reply was clear, but perhaps it is misunderstood. Nor is this "my position" (I do not make "positions", I listen from teachers - largely Saiva obviously, but everyone knows that I am a simple village type Hindu and a householder so I also go to many temples, especially Shakta but also Vaishnav), I am mentioning a consideration that is held by many Hindus and sects and it is not my "personal opinion" but "general opinion" and observation, and is not an abberation from standards or traditions longstanding by many Hindus. I am not anti-advaita, obviously Saiva Siddhanta is heavily Advaitic (e.g. Sada Shiva) and I agree in almost in all part with the expression of the Supreme Brahman as noted by Vaishnav HLK. But in practice I am a Bhakta and practice Karma and Bhakti Yoga and am not yet a Jnani. But I revere Trailanga Swami of Varanasi Who has a very clear instruction of Oneness and certainly He is not anti-Advaita. I never mentioned varna (let us not go there) but caste, and only in reply to the idea of another and not you, that Om (by itself, repeated for hours on end without Siv or Narayana or Ganesha and so on) is not allowed to someone who is not a Brahmin, and I am addressing those who think this "restriction" is birth based and anyone who violates the "restriction" DEGRADES themself by saying AUM.

Positions:

* AUM never degrades. There is no "birth restriction" to chanting Om. As in ANY practice, including the examples of renown Gurus who then "fell down", and not just the use of AUM or in yoga but also in Bhakti, in all aspects of Hinduism, the frailty of the devotee or practitioner can cause an issue, and even demons can use mantras and divine weapons to try and conquer Indra's Heaven. So saying that, my next point is:

* Chanting only AUM by itself for hours on end is not Vedic, and in addition yes I am saying this is Buddhist in influence. Apparently there are some Hindus who chant or hum Om (rejecting the Fire of sacrifice, not saying Shiva or Narayana and so on, never seeing Agni nor Surya and so on), they do not practice Saivism according to my understanding but some form of "Buddhism lite". I am sorry if some feelings are hurt, forgive me, but I will not change this idea. I respect Sadhus who only chant only AUM, but the others are, even to my personal obsevation, either rather ignorant "westerners" who are mixing New Age, or they are Buddhists. I am sorry, but I would not recommend Hindus in general to do this. Perhaps you only chant AUM and nothing else, then perhaps you are like a Sadhu. But honestly, I do not see it often, when I do, they are Buddhists who do not like Shiva and will not say His Name or that of Ram, Narayana, etc..

* Yes, I am saying I have observed some (not many, but some) Advaitans who are actually preaching and practicing Buddhism without Buddha.

* Despite my understanding by others example and teaching that chanting AUM by itself all day long or hours on end like a Tibetan Buddhist is not normal Hinduism, I do not say "not allowed" but "do not recommend". Yes, anyone can chant AUM all day long if they like. It does not degrade, humans degrade themself doing many things and that is their own problem. I say AUM a lot - obviously in terms of opening to a mantra, reading and hearing, bhajans etc.. OM Saravanabhava, I can give many, many examples. I also stand by what I said, that those who go overboard telling others they cannot chant AUM are creating many new Buddhists in the process, that in fact it is exactly the vision of Buddhists for their future and they know precisely the purpose and effect.

Om Namah Sivaya

saswathy
17 June 2014, 08:11 PM
Namasthe ,
It is very strange to know , that Buddhists do ' om' only and it is a news to me. When once ' om ' is started initially that can be done for 108 times . Slowly it goes on repeated continuously .Any other manthras need proper initiation and proper ritualistic sadhana . To all it is not possible to do that . Especially when they have so much of pressure in mundane life ,they can't spare either time or energy to spend for that . Om is primordial sound and it does not have any such stings attached to it which are expressed by many here .The only thing is it makes the devotee to become detached to the life in general and to the family in particular .That is the reason why it is not encouraged . But people who crossed certain age can do that with out any inhibitions or misgivings .When I referred to Buddha it is not because I am buddhist or I know that practicing OM is a buddhist tradition . I just want to say that a person becomes a real sanyasi when it is done with so much of devotion and concentration .Many manthras are just mere words because they are all locked .To day it is very rare to find a real guru who wants to illuminate a disciple .If some get any siddhi that is because of their trust and faith and single minded concentration .For them it is immaterial whether it is ' om' or siva manthra or Vishnu manthra or any other manthra.It is a wrong notion to entertain that ' pranavopasana' is buddhist practice . OM is Rudra swarupam .

saswathy
17 June 2014, 08:14 PM
[Namasthe ,
It is very strange to know , that Buddhists do ' om' only and it is a news to me. When once ' om ' is started initially that can be done for 108 times . Slowly it goes on repeated continuously .Any other manthras need proper initiation and proper ritualistic sadhana . To all it is not possible to do that . Especially when they have so much of pressure in mundane life ,they can't spare either time or energy to spend for that . Om is primordial sound and it does not have any such stings attached to it which are expressed by many here .The only thing is it makes the devotee to become detached to the life in general and to the family in particular .That is the reason why it is not encouraged . But people who crossed certain age can do that with out any inhibitions or misgivings .When I referred to Buddha it is not because I am buddhist or I know that practicing OM is a buddhist tradition . I just want to say that a person becomes a real sanyasi when it is done with so much of devotion and concentration .Many manthras are just mere words because they are all locked .To day it is very rare to find a real guru who wants to illuminate a disciple .If some get any siddhi that is because of their trust and faith and single minded concentration .For them it is immaterial whether it is ' om' or siva manthra or Vishnu manthra or any other manthra.It is a wrong notion to entertain that ' pranavopasana' is buddhist practice . OM is Rudra swarupam .

ShivaFan
17 June 2014, 09:59 PM
Namaste saswathy

I am sympathetic with your altruistic consideration that chanting AUM is restricted to no one if that indeed is your understanding, and my teaching is certainly that it is NOT only restricted to certain castes based on birth. When I say "chanting AUM", I reference the practice of chanting only AUM and not accompanied with a reference to Rudra, Shiva, Muruga, Narayana, and so on.

Whether such chanting is exclusively AUM 108 times or for 2 hours continously, there is no restriction based on birth, but I would not recommend it for most Hindus, unless you are a Sadhu for example, because this is not traditional practice and is influenced by Buddhists who remove Shiva or Narayana etc..

Yes Shiva is AUM. Of course. But Buddhists do not believe that, and they will not chant for example "Om Namah Sivaya" but instead to a Boddhisatva or Lotus Mantra or only AUM by itself. Other than some Sadhus, I have never seen a Hindu, a temple priest, a Guru, etc. simply chanting AUM alone, be it 108 times or for 2 hours straight, only Buddhists.

In the US, Tibetan Buddhists have a strong representation.

Here is an example of Tibetan Buddhist monks chanting simply AUM for hours on end. You can find example after example of this on youtube, documented in libraries, if you go to some Buddhist temples, etc.. I have watched them do this publically in Berkeley California, it goes on for hours.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Amt83hvhM

None of my replies (other than this) was in reply to you. I was not even aware you noted the Buddha. What I am saying is, there are indeed strong roots in Buddhism to simply chanting AUM by itself, in addition yes they also do the Lotus chant etc., and there are reasons they strip Shiva or Rudra from such chants because this is the nature of Buddhism and their philosophy of Nirvana, and similar practice is not a traditional Hindu practice.

And yes, I am saying that there are some Advaitans who are effectively practicing a Buddhist Lite version of Hinduism that is not Vedic. In addition, this same chanting of only AUM is a popular New Age agenda. I would not recommend this for Hindus and in particular Saivas.

But while I say "not recommend" I do NOT say "not allowed". Perhaps we are in agreement on this. There are some who can practice this effectively, but I have never seen Hindus doing so, it is in no way a common practice as it is among Tibetan Buddhists for example. However, those who are adament about an agenda of restrictions also play right into the hands of Buddhists and add to their ranks over time.

As far as chanting a mantra or singing a bhajan, with Aum (followed by the middle and end) be it japa 108 times, be it an initiated mantra, or be it part of loving bhajans, why would you say it is too difficult? There are millions of Hindus who chant at least one round of 108 everyday, there is no difficulty and easily can be "rountine" and full of devotion even for those with the most busy of schedules.

For countless, such chanting to Shiva or Ganesh or Rudra or Narayana or Murugan or (etc.) provides the stability of mind to be successful in harmony with this world and even enhances career ability even though the purpose is for a higher goal.

Om Namah Sivaya

saswathy
17 June 2014, 11:53 PM
Namasthe ,
What you say is applicable in case of ordinay sadhakas , for whom sadhana is a routine . What I am talking about is serious aspirants for whom life is a great sadhana and it has got a purpose beyond the mundane life . Some members who asked about sadhana are very young in age and showing so much interest in spirituality where their peers are engaged in movies , parties , friends and playful life . I mean those people can do ' OM ' worship. Yes the forum is meant for general discussion . But I don't think , some serious advice to some serious aspirants is a taboo. I have had been doing ' OM ' sadhana for the past 7 years and I did not find any untoward result except my viwes on life and relationships, religious beliefs have broadened . YES opinions differ .rgds rgds

Sudharshan
17 June 2014, 11:55 PM
u better sit in a quiet place and focus on ur 3rd eye and keep saying om namah shivaya.

Amrut
18 June 2014, 12:45 AM
Namaste ShivaFan ji,

I think you take literal meaning of all statements.

That statement of degradation is a warning and not to be taken as literally. Perhaps, you know that those who oppose varNa dharma (caste is jAtI, a sub-set of varNa) by birth only quote superiority by birth verses and not those verses from same manu smriti which says that if a brahmin does not adhere to his brahminhood, what happens to him. There are verses including those which say that to a degraded brahmin, one should not bow or give respect.

Anyways, not entering into this argument, I would simply clarify that OM chanting is done as authentic hindu way. Buddhist and Jains have adapted OM. OM created maya and from maya this world was created. OM has control over the three guNa-s. This sound can be heard by yogis. Adi Sankara mentions this in I think sadachar (lesser known prakaraNa granth) or yoga taravali, a gloss on Patanjali Yoga sutra. OM is mentioned by Adi Sankara in his commentaries, mostly on mandukya up. vidyAraNya svAmI also mentions OM, Krishna in Gita says I am OM, Shiva and Ganesha are connected with OM. Kanchi Paramahcharya also mentions OM in 'Hindu Dharma'

The reason why OM is not chanted by all is because except advaita, all worship a form of God, hence their mantra is dedicated to that particular form of God. Even smArta-s chant various mantras as they are into karma kANDa.

Adding OM to a mantra increases it's potency by 50 % (I cannot confirm the source, but I have heard it), hence OM is added, except a mantra (available in todays form, Shri Krishna sharanam mama) does not have OM in it.

Since most Hindu-s worship a form of God, hence you will not find it practiced by all in masses. Only advaitins meditate on OM or on neti-neti. As far as advaita is concerned, any one who have read prakaraNa grantha-s will not argue that for practising advaita, Adi Sankaa has laid some pre-requisites.

If Buddhists and Jains have adopted OM because of it's potential and holiness, then what can we do, but please do not say that those who chant only OM are Buddhists.

Hari OM

Amrut
18 June 2014, 01:13 AM
Namaste,

I will also like to clear that 'not allowed' is not said by me. Even if it is said, it is a warning for the good of all. It is not some kind of rigid rule and there are always exceptions, all those who are pure can chant OM. The question is why only pure can chant? It is because OM will not allow you to fulfill any desire, be it good or bad, afterall everything is within maya and OM is one mantra which effortlessly takes you beyond maya and puts you in a non-dual state.

So if you are ready to quit all dharma and only focus on brahman and moksha is the only goal of life, then OM is best. But we do not know if we are pure. Hence guru is needed.

When one becomes pure, his sattva guNa increases, which is responsible for tyAga. Such a person is a sanyAsin (mentally). sanyAsa is above varNa, forget jAtI (your caste which you love so much :D ).

Are you getting it. For masses you got to have some rules, some restrictions, some disciple. For advanced souls, be them born under any varNa, they will receive divine guidance, even if mankind will ignore them, as they are dependent upon

If one sudra is inwardly pure, then he will get guidance, but then other sudras will copy him. If he can do it then why can't we? and there will be mess. So there are restrictions.

what restrictions can you put on those who are eager to go beyond body and mind? All rules, purification processes are for either body or mind. But those who wish to rise above them do not get attached to them. Hence when time comes, same guru will break this varNa barrier and will give tatva GYAna. But this does not give license to teach to all sudra-s

Please note that I have used 'sudra' as an e.g. and hope that it is taken in right spirit.

Since you are fond of Buddha, let me give an e.g. of the great compassionate one.

Once Buddha was walking with disciples. A man wished to approach him, but kept watching them as they monks walked. He saw that Buddha carefully put steps so that he didnt stepped on any worm. His disciple did the same. This man watched this incident and was curious to know the reason.

So he approached the disciple, as he was shy to directly approach Lord Buddha. The disciple replied that each one has right to leave and we should show compassion to them and not carelessly crush them. Inquirer was not satisfied with this answer. So he approached Lord Buddha. Lord replied, How can I step upon myself?

See the difference?

The world is copy-cat. They need strict rules and not all are matured enough to know the reason behind the actions of great saints.

One more e.g. please ;)

I am not sure whether it was Buddha or Adi Sankara. I will refer him as 'Guru'

Once a guru was walking with disciples. A devotee offered them non-veg. guru ate it and so disciples followed their Guru. Later one devotee offered wine. Disciples thoughts if guru is taking, then let us have wine too. they too drank wine. Later guru was walking and approached a worker who was forging Iron. Guru asked for bhiksha. He said, I do not have anything but only this hot molten iron. So guru said, give me this iron then.. That man gave molten iron and guru drank it and asked his disciples to copy him :D

If disciple copy guru then what to say about laymen?

Hence, I personally feel, that there should be rules. Those rules can be broken for those who deserve knowledge. We have e.g. of saints who were not brahmins but were GYAnI-s.

Some fear has to be induced, but for the good of all. SAstra-s are not a free picking.

Sir ji, whatever is there is there for a reason. It is our mind that interprets according to our own understanding.

Hari OM

saswathy
18 June 2014, 01:31 AM
Dear friend ,
OM gives mental purity , good and rational thinking and attitude. It is said -----''OM karam -- - Paramam Brahma sarva manthreshu nayakam .'' From ' Om ' all sounds , all sound vibrations, all languages have come . All upanishads ,Brahmanas , Ithihasas , and puranas praised 'om ' as the potent force as a upasana manthra .Pranava upasana gives the realisation of desires also if the sadhaka has mundane desires . But ultimately it gives detachment . It is said house holders have to add 'om' before the manthra , whatever it may be and for whom it may be done . Sanyasis have to add 'om ' at the end of the manthra .My views have changed with ' OM' pranavopasana and I started seeing the meaning and importance of all religions.Then I studied all the teachings of all religions.I didn't convert my religion .I am a sanathana Hindu dharma follower .
Bible says ---'' In the begining it was word , the word was with God and the word was God .'
God is associated with sound and light .God is energy . When god is expressed in terms feeling and emotion he is love .
When it comes to ordinary beings many forms of God were created according to their trust ,belief , faith and liking .Thus the various forms and names of God ultimately belong to the super energy paramathma only .'OM ' manifests it self in all sakara and nirakara upasanas .A limited comprehension makes us to believe that' Om' is not a desirable path of sadhana for all. rgds ls

Amrut
18 June 2014, 01:39 AM
Dear friend ,
OM gives mental purity , good and rational thinking and attitude. It is said -----''OM karam -- - Paramam Brahma sarva manthreshu nayakam .'' From ' Om ' all sounds , all sound vibrations, all languages have come . All upanishads ,Brahmanas , Ithihasas , and puranas praised 'om ' as the potent force as a upasana manthra .Pranava upasana gives the realisation of desires also if the sadhaka has mundane desires . But ultimately it gives detachment . It is said house holders have to add 'om' before the manthra , whatever it may be and for whom it may be done . Sanyasis have to add 'om ' at the end of the manthra .My views have changed with ' OM' pranavopasana and I started seeing the meaning and importance of all religions.Then I studied all the teachings of all religions.I didn't convert my religion .I am a sanathana Hindu dharma follower .
Bible says ---'' In the begining it was word , the word was with God and the word was God .'
God is associated with sound and light .God is energy . When god is expressed in terms feeling and emotion he is love .
When it comes to ordinary beings many forms of God were created according to their trust ,belief , faith and liking .Thus the various forms and names of God ultimately belong to the super energy paramathma only .'OM ' manifests it self in all sakara and nirakara upasanas .A limited comprehension makes us to believe that' Om' is not a desirable path of sadhana for all. rgds ls

Dear Friend,

I knew this was going to come sooner or later.

I leave it upon individual. It does not effect my spiritual progress if someone chants OM or not.

Hari OM

saswathy
18 June 2014, 01:57 AM
Dear friends ,
I think those who want to make a serious foray in to spiritual sadhana and are interested in Kundalini awakening can do so by pranavopasana with benefit . Any other deity also is not a taboo . But sometimes the nature of that particular deity could taint the inner nature and prakrithi of the sadhaka . I heard once a sadhaka of Hanuman got a small tail after intense sadhana because of his identification with his ishtadevatha more at physical level . Hanuman stands for dheeratha , sooratha , patiennce , perseverence , nishkama prema , nisswartha seva , knoweldge , devotion ,gift of gab ,etc . The worship of Hanuman is supposed to give , intelligence , prowess , name , fame ,non fear ,non disease , etc . It does not mean that the devotee does not get salvation .All sadhanas all manthras ultimately lead to paramathma only .

Amrut
18 June 2014, 01:59 AM
Dear friends ,
I think those who want to make a serious foray in to spiritual sadhana and are interested in Kundalini awakening can do so by pranavopasana with benefit . Any other deity also is not a taboo . But sometimes the nature of that particular deity could taint the inner nature and prakrithi of the sadhaka . I heard once a sadhaka of Hanuman got a small tail after intense sadhana because of his identification with his ishtadevatha more at physical level . Hanuman stands for dheeratha , sooratha , patiennce , perseverence , nishkama prema , nisswartha seva , knoweldge , devotion ,gift of gab ,etc . The worship of Hanuman is supposed to give , intelligence , prowess , name , fame ,non fear ,non disease , etc . It does not mean that the devotee does not get salvation .All sadhanas all manthras ultimately lead to paramathma only .

I agree

brahma jijnasa
18 June 2014, 05:43 AM
Namaste all

In this thread we have seen expression of personal opinions on the subject of practicing mantra Om, however I did not want to remain only on it to express my personal opinion or some sort of opinion that I have heard during all these years of my interest in and studying of Hindu dharma, but I wanted to substantiate this opinion with the statement from the scriptures. That's what I did, I quoted from the scripture, it is a Purana, where it is explicitly stated that a person who is not a Brahmin (to be noted here that the designation has nothing to do with the birth. We've already discussed a lot about that earlier in other threads here on HDF) is degraded if he practices chanting mantra Om as a continuous meditation, ie japa.

Here I also want to say that I personally do not see a fundamental difference between "not recommend" and "not allowed" because if the scripture explicitly says "he is degraded" (see the quote from one of my previous posts in this thread) then it actually means both, that it is not recommended and that it is not allowed.

On the other hand, the practice of continuous meditation on the holy Name of the Lord, ie chanting holy Names of the Lord such as Narayana, Vasudeva, Krishna, Rama, Shiva, ... etc, is allowed to everyone, is allowed even to non Brahmins or Shudras, without any restrictions. Not only is it allowed to everyone but it is even specially recommended as the process of self-realization for this age called Kali yuga. In the previous ages before this Kali yuga some other processes have been recommended as the best for that specific age, such as yogic meditation, performance of Vedic sacrifices, worship of the deities, but chanting holy Names of the Lord is specifically recommended for this age of Kali as the best practice. There are plenty of verses in the scriptures about this.


SAstra-s are not a free picking.
Sir ji, whatever is there is there for a reason. It is our mind that interprets according to our own understanding.

Exactly!


regards

saswathy
18 June 2014, 07:32 AM
Dear friend ,
It is not my opinion . Sankara described in Yoga Tharavali about nadanusandhanam where a sadhaka hears anahatha dhwani which is om kara only. Pandit Sreerama sarma , sri Dayananda Saraswathi , Sri Gurunanak all recommend the japa of om . Yamadharmaraja told Nachiketha to do ' OM ' for attaining all that which is aspired by yogis , Gnanis , rishis ,and even devathas . Mandukopanishath , Swethaswatharopanishat , Maithrayanupanishath ,Pranavopanishath all very clearly explained the result and shakthi of om upasana .OM is personified -- thrimurthis , three Agnis and three vedas and three lokas .There is no difference between 'om ' and Parabrahmaam.
Thus it is not my concoction or misrepresented opinion . It is given in all puranas , vedas , ithihasas , upanishadths and life histories of great yogis .
Any ways , I have come to the wall of opposition where there is no point in going in circles . rgds .

Amrut
18 June 2014, 07:53 AM
Dear friend ,
It is not my opinion . Sankara described in Yoga Tharavali about nadanusandhanam where a sadhaka hears anahatha dhwani which is om kara only. Pandit Sreerama sarma , sri Dayananda Saraswathi , Sri Gurunanak all recommend the japa of om . Yamadharmaraja told Nachiketha to do ' OM ' for attaining all that which is aspired by yogis , Gnanis , rishis ,and even devathas . Mandukopanishath , Swethaswatharopanishat , Maithrayanupanishath ,Pranavopanishath all very clearly explained the result and shakthi of om upasana .OM is personified -- thrimurthis , three Agnis and three vedas and three lokas .There is no difference between 'om ' and Parabrahmaam.
Thus it is not my concoction or misrepresented opinion . It is given in all puranas , vedas , ithihasas , upanishadths and life histories of great yogis .
Any ways , I have come to the wall of opposition where there is no point in going in circles . rgds .

Dear friend,

The question is not about potency of OM. the question is who can practice OM.

Sriram sharma acharya and Dayananda saraswati, both great saints, but they had revisionist values. They do not believe in varNa dharma and say ladies can do vedic karma kand and have upnayana sanskara, they can take sanyasa. when one of female disciple of dayananda came to have darshan of shringeri shankarachrya Bharti Tirth, he asked what they are doing. These ladies were all sanyasins. they said that they are studying upanishads. shankarachrya didn't acknowledged and he said that ladies cannot take sanyasa.

another thing is - can anyone study upanishads?

None of the 5 mathas have non-brahmins (by birth) as shankaracharyas, all are male. shankaracharyas even today do not give sanyasa to ladies.

All founders of religion are male, including guru nanak. Ofcourse later religions didnt believed in caste system and hence their teachings are applicable to all.

You read Shankaracharya's yoga taravali, but didnt comment on my post where I have said that in his prakarana granths, he says reading advaita requires pre-qualifications. Hence from advaita POV, one can only practice OM if one fully dedicates his life for moksha and no other goal. I have always confined my opinions to advaita. and I do not say that this is the opinion of the whole of hinduism

As far as advaita is concerned

1. OM is not for beginners
2. Not all should practice OM
3. adhikAra bheda has to be accepted

Since all forms of Gods are equally potent, hence one can easily chant their name. All forms of Gods can take you beyond maya. But sAkAra upAsanA has advantage.


More indriyA-s are engaged in worship and even in japa
There is an option of emotional outlet - you can talk to him, get angry, complain, went out frustration, etc
You can ask Shiva / Rama to fulfill personal desires and then still progress. Not all can renounce desires. They want yoga, but their mind cannot renounce certain desires and people.


Again, I am not saying that no hindu lady can take sanyasa. In yoga, tantra and other paths, ladies are taking sanyasa and are very knowledge, advanced and also self realized. It is only Adi Sankara stuck to the above said opinion.

I agree with you on one point, that we should stop this discussion. Both views are given. It is left to an individual to judge the best.

Hari OM

ShivaFan
18 June 2014, 09:25 AM
Namaste

I will end my discussion here in regards to Buddhism with one last comment regarding Buddhism because I truly do sense this is a consideration of historical impact.

But before that, I have never read the entire Brahma Vaivarta Purana beyond a rare use of one or other verse, I have no concept of this quoted verse of BJ, and frankly I am going to avoid going down the "scripture wars" regarding translations, or resting one sloka or verse against another, some of those threads typically end up into a rabbit hole of jalpa and end up closed.

One last comment regarding Buddha, then I will let the other two point and counter-point to their heart's desire.

Some Vaishnavs believe the Buddha is an incarnation of Vishnu. I will not state any opinion on that, but mention that this is an aspect of some sects of Vaishnavism.

The "ism" of Buddhism reveals to me that later followers and disciples of Siddhartha probably changed the original practuces, some recommendations and even perhaps the rites, within the message of the Buddha. But at the same breath, if Buddha is an avatar, one could argue that the words of Siddhartha are true. But for a different audience?

I was once told by a Vaishnav Guru from India that Buddha came to "trick" the impersonalists. In fact scriptural quotes were provided, for example from the Srimad Bhagavatam that Gautama came down in order to trick "asuras" into
atheism and mayavada.

Does one reject this idea, but accept all else in SB? Does one accept this but reject some other sloka from some other scripture?

Now I might not agree. But also, I will be told that scripture says so, and I must agree. But one verse is interpreted this way or that, both sometimes can actually be correct but it is difficult to put things into perspective.

So while there may be a quote that says only Brahmins should chant AUM, another may seem exactly the opposite, or some word such as "degrades" is actually totally misconceived, perhaps another says AUM desolves one from all responsibilities and then family dependants "might suffer".

Just follow your Guru, do your yoga, see the results, one will advance another may wait.

That is all I want to say.

Om Namah Sivaya

Amrut
18 June 2014, 11:01 AM
Namaste ShivaFan ji,

One saint I met told that Lord Buddha didnt trick anyone, as he was avatar of Lord Vishnu. What he says is that Lord Buddha himself said that his teachings will last for 1000 years. He didnt gave sanyAsa to ladies, but they kept following him. After 1-2 years of continuous following and with support from Ananda his cousin and his favourite disciple, he agreed to give sanyas, but said that now the religion will last for 500 years. I cant confirm authenticity of this statement, as my knowledge of other religions is trivial.

Nagarjuna's version of shunya is his own interpretation and that he appeared after 500 years of Buddha's leaving this physical body. This is true even if we take the modern scholars who have established date of Lord Buddha. Actually some say, with proofs that Lord Buddha appeared around 1880 BC.

EDIT:

The quotes which say that Buddha tricked demons, etc is related to destruction of Tripura by Mahadev. Thimular, a great saint in his thirumandiram says that the three cities are 3 subtle bodies. Hence symbolic meaning is taken by some. This destruction of Tripura is also found in Sri Rudram (http://www.kamakoti.org/kamakoti/stotra/Sri%20Rudram%20Anuvakam1.html) and is commented by three commentators like sAyana, Bhatta bhaskara (visistadvaitin) and Abhinava Shankara. They agree with symbolic interpretation of destruction of tripura. Deluding demonic qualities may be taken symbolic.

Buddha also asked people first to be good than to claim their superiority (perhaps this revolt against traditional varNa-s is because of this effect SF ji ;) ) He may have asked athiests-materialists (carvaks) first to be good humans and then worship Gods. Buddhism does believe in Gods (devatas).

Ramakrishna says that there is no difference between (original) teachings of Vedanta and Lord Buddha.

Some even say that Buddha said that there is no existence of soul (jiva) and God. But He didn't said that 'I' does not exist.

All avatars work according to the then situation and do what is necessary at that time and they even have to pass negative statement to break the ice. But unfortunately negative statements are more kept in focus than his own teachings. Veda generally means samhitA part. These vedic karma kanda cannot give freedom from misery. This world itself is an adobe of sorrows. If corrupted brahmins would say that only thorugh them can Gods be pleased and that there is no other way, to break the ice, Buddha will oppose the rituals. The context in which things are said are forgotten and only statements are remembered.

More than the philosophy and technical stuff, what attracts masses is the loafty character of great saints. Getting attractions by their shear presence people would willingly embrace Buddha. Statements said from bottom of heart full of compassion have deep impact upon masses like - if killing goat is beneficial, killing a man is more beneficial, so kill me.

Again, there are some inconsistencies in bhagavat purana w.r.t to mahabharata in some incidences which are common to both like birth of parikshit, etc. Nobody denies about interpolations in puranas. We have to accept what we have and try to preserve it so that it does not gets corrupted any further.

Anyways, this will side track this thread.

If there are points in favour of any one, it boasts their confidence, if it is against them, then it is a warning. This is my personal opinion.

Like I have said earlier, I have not heard any vaishnava or shaiva or any non-advaitins except yogis who are initiated in chanting of OM, kepping aside other religions. They have their own mantra like Om Namah Shivaya, Om Namo Narayanaya, etc

We should also remember that not all statements are applicable ot each and everyone. Hence a Guru is a must.

I agree that we should follow what Guru says :)

This fact is said in Guru Gita

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विहायशास्त्रजालानिगुरुमेवसमाश्रयेत्||





Therefore discarding all kinds of contacts with people, by all possible means, giving up all conflicts of the scriptures; one should take refuge in the Guru. (103)


Afterall we all want to be at lotus feet of the Lord.


I try to take good points if I encounter them and leave the rest.

Hari OM

saswathy
18 June 2014, 08:22 PM
Dear friends ,
It is clearly said that a reference to Brahmin is to karma brahmin and not jathi brahmin . Once upon a time almost all brahmins were jathi as well as karma brahmins .But now a very very small percentage belongs to that category .So the question of eligibility is rather difficult to decide .Then again , even the so called gurus who are genuine and who guide the disciples taking the entire responsibility are very rare .Here everybody is forgetting a fact that Rama , Krishna , Buddha , all were human beings . They became Gods by virtue of their qualities like samam , damam , kshamam , karuna , Ahimsa ,astheyam ,etc . Once they had been recognised as Gods for their extraordinary qualities and accomplishments they got all the veneration . Here the point is God is an embodiment of Godly virtues but not the names .Then question of eligibility depends upon the virtues and on the exact birth .
Leaving all this when I posted the mail to the query of that boy who is barely 17 and who has so much of interest in sadhana and spirituality , I thought OM is the manthra exactly suitable for him , because OM dispels all doubts and clears the path . Some where it is given , that in the absence of a guru , one can write a manthra and keep it in Shivalayam overnight and can start doing that from the next day , taking Shiva as the guru . Rules are for the sake of convenience and not for creation of more confusion. We have to change with changing times , keeping in view the original rishi prokthams .Literal translation of original sayings are not always practical to adhere to . Change as long as it is good can be and invited . rgds

ShivaFan
18 June 2014, 09:54 PM
Namaste saswathy

You bring up some interesting subject matter which I will have to do some further research on regarging Brahmins, however I was literally stopped in my tracks when you said the following which has upset me enough to have to again step into this thread, where you said:


Here everybody is forgetting a fact that Rama , Krishna , Buddha , all were human beings . They became Gods by virtue of their qualities...


I am sorry but no, no, no!

Rama was the example of the Perfect Man. This does not mean He was born a human and then later became Bhagavan. Yes He set the example of a Perfect Man and men are humans but no way was He born a "human", yes He could feel the pain of men in that his Mother drank half the divine nectar, thus in one perspective "half-man" and "half-Divine" but He is also FULLY Divine at the same moment and this is not a contradiction. He was Divine the very moment the first event of Ramayana and beyond, the Perfect King and protector of Bhumi from demons. And yes, Krishna to Reform men and protect Bhumi, He was Divine from the first event of the Mahabharata. Neither became Gods, They WERE Divinity.

Om Namah Sivaya

saswathy
18 June 2014, 11:05 PM
Dear friend ,
Yes . They are divinity personified . Actually they are the incarnations of SRI Mahavishnu . But they have taken human form . In fact when ever the need arises Mahavishnu comes to the earth to set the things in order . Iam not disputing that fact . But either Rama or Krishna did not go beyond the confines of human limitations . No where we see Rama doing the tricks of vanishing , taking another form etc . When Sita was abducted Rama behaved just like an ordinary mortal and told Lakshmana that he is subject to all human frailities in the human body and he does not remember that he is God and has come down for some purpose .They want to show to humans how can they be virtuous even in human existence . That they have different mission is altogether different point .Here I am not contradictig these facts. If their purpose is not educating the humans and restore balance and harmony , they need not take human forms . They could have just killed the asuras by their super powers .Again it is a different story that Ravana had a boon of not getting killed by any one and his ignorance , pride and vanity made him not to take care in case of nara and vanaras .
In all cases we have to take the essence and not the literal words .My point is eligibilty criteria is different in different circumstances . What holds good at a given point of time and place need not necessarily be so at an entirely different point of place and time . For every rule there could be an exception . The point of discussion here is brahmanthwam and other eligible criteria for the ' Om ' meditation . An 80 year old person also may not be mature enough to do ' Om ' with all his brahminical birth and upbringing .
RGDS.

ShivaFan
18 June 2014, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the clarification Saswathy

Amrut
19 June 2014, 12:39 AM
Namaste ShivaFan ji,

Today morning a thought came to me about degradation. It is related to kundalini activation.

When kundalini activates, aura expands and both positive and negative qualities magnify. In this case, if someone does not concentrate on character building, and takes things on ego then this would be a problem. s/he will fall. More one climbs high, one has to be careful, if one makes mistake and falls, (gets side-tracked), then the impact of fall is very high.

Again, kundalini is to be properly activated. Both ida and pingala should be activated, else it may lead to hormonal imbalance. In some cases, it may damage the brain cells.

Have you observed those designs (circles) on Buddha's head. They are not designs. Some say they each cell of his brain has became minor chakra and those circles represent his extra-ordinary spiritual development. Even the crown that kings wore are considered as poor replica of developed crown chakra (sahasrahara chakra)

Many feel intense burning heat within after certain type of meditation and kundalini activation, some even behave mad, they are obsessed with divine madness. If something happens, who is going to control the seeker? Someone who is adept in this process and can control kundalini activation can only help. Such persons are not found in abundance. Hence such practice must be done under guidance of Guru.

Chanting hari nama is good and anyone can do it. Here hari means that who takes away sorrow. this implies to all forms of God.

Hari OM

ShivaFan
19 June 2014, 01:08 AM
Namaste Amrut

This is very interesting, you see a lot of things others overlook.

That is why you are beloved by Hindus no matter what, and also over the internet.


Have you observed those designs (circles) on Buddha's head. They are not designs. Some say they each cell of his brain has became minor chakra and those circles represent his extra-ordinary spiritual development. Even the crown that kings wore are considered as poor replica of developed crown chakra (sahasrahara chakra)

This is also very interesting. Actually, I had only assumed this was the hair style that only the very rich, such as the Kshatriya Buddha, could afford but there is something to your thoughts.

I do not practice Kundalini Yoga because, well it scares me. Once in Oakland California, I went into what I thought was a Hindu Temple but instead it was an Ashram and though there was a Kali, they turned the lights off with only dim lamps, there were some Indians leading and there was also some Westerners, they were obviously doing this type of yoga. Suddenly the entire room was filled with some sort of power, no questiun about it, but frankly - I was frightened.

Once in the presence of a Guru, just me and my wife and one of his disciples, some approximate power shifted time itself, I know it sounds strange. Though I do not practice this type of yoga, there is no doubt actual serpentine powers and chakras as you say. Only those with certain ability should go deep into it without ego, those who live in the worlds that I live need to only take instruction from those who venture there with ability as we are not qualified to "play with fire ".

Om Namah Sivaya

Amrut
19 June 2014, 02:01 AM
This is also very interesting. Actually, I had only assumed this was the hair style that only the very rich, such as the Kshatriya Buddha, could afford but there is something to your thoughts.

Namaste ShivaFan ji,

Those circles are also found in Lord Mahavir :) . If they had them physically is another question but there are instances where even physical transfmormation takes place, including the whole physical body transforming into light body, as in case of Mahavtar Babaji.


I do not practice Kundalini Yoga because, well it scares me. Once in Oakland California, I went into what I thought was a Hindu Temple but instead it was an Ashram and though there was a Kali, they turned the lights off with only dim lamps, there were some Indians leading and there was also some Westerners, they were obviously doing this type of yoga. Suddenly the entire room was filled with some sort of power, no questiun about it, but frankly - I was frightened.



the problem with this types of practices is that there is a lot that depends upon who is teaching and little material is available that explains the phenomenon. Each master has their own style.

Just because there were dim lights, we cannot blame them, but for kundalini activation, no such thing is needed. Kundalini is inside and so external things help only in initial phase. But when it comes to special processes to obtain certain powers, then such external help and creation of certain atmosphere may help. May be Hatha Yogis practice it. Not sure about it.

http://www.kaulantakpeeth.org/mahayogi-satyendranath
http://www.kaulantakpeeth.org/mahayogi-satyendar-nath-gatha/Parichay-Of-Mahayogi#english

Pure practice of Kundalini activation does not need any external stimuli. This is my understanding.


Once in the presence of a Guru, just me and my wife and one of his disciples, some approximate power shifted time itself, I know it sounds strange. Though I do not practice this type of yoga, there is no doubt actual serpentine powers and chakras as you say. Only those with certain ability should go deep into it without ego, those who live in the worlds that I live need to only take instruction from those who venture there with ability as we are not qualified to "play with fire ".

Om Namah Sivaya

This play is dangerous. Once I over exerted with activating kundalini and my entire body heated up. I felt I was burning. I could not concentrate on any work. I had a headache and it would not go away no matter whatever I do. there were other experiences like whole body shining bright, etc, but I am told not to discuss them in public.

In advaita sadhana, I feel coolness instead of heat. Mind calms down.

In yoga, you concentrate on energy of a mantra. yoga says to have mastery over 5 senses and mind and body. Hence those who wish to control things dominate, like to stay in strict disciple, etc like Yoga. The practice makes one a little dominating and aggressive. The nature of sadhana makes you to feel that all things should be under control.

I am not body and mind, so I should control my body and mind and not vice versa. This attitude enters into the mind of a devotee. This was once my attitude. I said - In dictionary of Yoga, there is no word 'NO". Anything is possible.

It is said that Narendra Modi is a worshipper of devi mata :)

But now, I am chanting OM to know myself, to merge into Brahman. Advaita sadhana makes one neutral to likes and dislikes because of very nature of sadhana. Here one feels unbroken flow of bliss which comes from vairagya and feels deep peace. There is steadiness in this experience.

When I was chanting Rama Nama, and Hanuman nama, I my heart used to be filled with devotion and at times heart overflows with devotion resulting in wetting of eyes and tears rolling down cheeks. That joy is something different. There are surges, spikes of this joy, the devotion.

Practice of yoga strengthens mind. One tunes with 5 tatvas, 5 sheaths and is in universal harmony. Everything is Brahman. In Yoga, there is integration of 5 sheaths.

In advaita, one dis-associates with 5 sheaths. brhama satya, jagat mithyA (stay neutral to that which is not SELF). Aham Brahmasmi. and other mahavakyas.


Hari OM

brahma jijnasa
20 June 2014, 03:47 PM
Namaste

Actually that one verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana is not the only one that exists in the scriptures about restrictions. There are other similar verses that say not everything is for everyone, and in particular it is said that those who are not qualified to receive knowledge from the Shruti -- Shudras -- are not allowed to perform Vedic practices, recite Vedic mantras, etc.

Now, I understand that today it is the age of Kali, the age when everyone can at least read the translations of Shruti texts such as the Upanishads, everyone chooses according to his will any Vedic mantra that he likes, be it Om etc, while ignoring all the rules and regulations that is recognized by the tradition. Everyone is doing that today, and especially newcomers to Hindu dharma out of curiosity, out of the desire to try out and learn about Hindu dharma, out of enthusiasm or even with verve for Hindu dharma, but I think that we should not go overboard with all these because the tradition teaches us that all this requires a certain qualification, a certain purity in the person. It is precisely for this reason that we find in the scriptures such verses that set restrictions, verses that say not everything is for everyone. A person who ignores all this and do whatever he comes to mind, probably will not achieve significant progress, if he will ever accomplish anything at all.

One interesting observation. We've already discussed a lot about varna topic earlier in other threads here on HDF.
There we come to the conclusion (at least this is true for some of us, I'm not sure that we have all come to this conclusion :rolleyes: ) that varna is not determined on the basis of a family in which a person is born, but is determined based on the nature and characteristics of the person. Since this is so, we could say that even this enthusiasm and verve for Hindu dharma is an indication that the person actually is not a Shudra and so he actually possesses the Brahminical qualities. But speaking from the traditional point of view even then it is doubtful which Vedic practices that person should do or should not do. On the other hand, if one reads Bhagavad gita, Puranas and Itihasas, and chant the holy names of the Lord certainly he will not go wrong because for that matter there are no restrictions.


regards

ganeshamylord
21 June 2014, 10:44 AM
Namaste

Now, I understand that today it is the age of Kali, the age when everyone can at least read the translations of Shruti texts such as the Upanishads, everyone chooses according to his will any Vedic mantra that he likes, be it Om etc, while ignoring all the rules and regulations that is recognized by the tradition. Everyone is doing that today, and especially newcomers to Hindu dharma out of curiosity, out of the desire to try out and learn about Hindu dharma, out of enthusiasm or even with verve for Hindu dharma, but I think that we should not go overboard with all these because the tradition teaches us that all this requires a certain qualification, a certain purity in the person. It is precisely for this reason that we find in the scriptures such verses that set restrictions, verses that say not everything is for everyone. A person who ignores all this and do whatever he comes to mind, probably will not achieve significant progress, if he will ever accomplish anything at all.
. On the other hand, if one reads Bhagavad gita, Puranas and Itihasas, and chant the holy names of the Lord certainly he will not go wrong because for that matter there are no restrictions.

regards

Namaste
The same puranas also foretell that in Kaliyuga everyone is a born shudra and if everyone is a born shudra then why do we see so many gurus and parampara systems today ? since going by your logic,, learning spirituality from a guru itself is contradicted as only a brahmin can become a guru and brahmins are extinct in kaliyuga? Also sanyasa in banned in kaliyuga then why do we see so many cults having people who call themselves sanyasis and giving initiation to thousands of simpletons all over the world who call themselves devotees of lord?
In kaliyuga where people have 60 to 80 years to live are you trying to say that rules and regulations applied to people in satya yuga where they lived more than a lakh years are still relevant? The rule of any swimming pool is removing pants before entering the pool. The point is to be comfortable while swimming. But if due to circumstances i have to swim with my pants on does that make me a bad swimmer? Or are my pants more important than my swimming ability itself?

Gods name is no doubt important for beginners but that is the 1+1 for spirituality but if a person sticks only to gods name will he crack (a+b)2 of spirituality?
God is aum and if a person doesnt know anything about aum how can he get liberated from the shadows of duality?

Either way since you are a devotee yourself if you can show me one proof from any scripture that just Gods name without ashtanga yoga gives liberation id be grateful because i have seen a famous cult propagating gods name and it is full of heinous activities and heinous people. Despite having all the crimes in the world they still say chanting the holy names protect people. Whereas people who do aum mind their own business and are peaceful and happy by actions and not just words
I have read tulsidas ramacharitamanas which focussed more on the advaitic aspect of lord rama and in his hanuman chalisa he predicted accurately the suns distance from the earth because that is what true devotion does and a true devotee automatically gets the knowledge about gods creation too
Whereas i know another person who initiated foreigners into chanting the name of god in a fanatic fashion calling all other souls as “maidservants” ”demigods” and ended up calling the moons distance farther away from the earth than the suns and also stated that the stars get their power of illumination from the sun
And going by your own esteemed puranas and itihasas a lie never comes out of the mouth of a sadhu. Then how did this person speak so many lies despite being such a great scion of devotion?? I mean either he is not a sadhu or the puranas speak untruth? Pick one Care to elaborate?

saswathy
22 June 2014, 01:57 AM
Sagunopasana is done in the initial stages of worship . An initiation is done according to the liking of a person . When it is done with all dedication , the personal deity himself takes the sadhaka to the path of nirgunopasana. When once that stage comes there is no need of any manthras . It is pure meditation on the absolute BRAhman. But some times some sadhakas might have reached to the end stage but dies before the realisation of self. The he takes birth in a very congenial atmosphere and starts the sadhana at a very young age . Ramakrishna paramhansa , Ramanamaharshi , Siddhendra yogi , and many others are such yogis . But who knows a person, deeply interested in the knowledge of Brahman could be a yogi in the offing like them and who can strait away start with ' OM'.usually people turn towards spirituality when they have severe problems and become despaired .When the problem gets solved they get relaxed and slow down or if the problem is not solved they totally abandon the worship of that deity and search for other avenues.The so called gurus cater to them . A genuine guru who reaches out to a real seeker stays with the disciples against all odds and removes all hindrances .But it is vry rare to find such seeker or such guru . Now spirituality has become a salable commodity.All ashrams are sprouting up every where with many quick fix solutions Some genuine ashrams are there but very rare .
Then again , many gurus dish out dry and empty vedantha , which appeals to some people , which is non practical and non usable.

saswathy
22 June 2014, 02:12 AM
The argument women are not supposed to study vedas is not a blanket rule . some parts of vedas create some excess heat and sometimes contribute to the dis functioning of female harmones. When men were going out for earning , to feed the dependents , women were looking after the day to day needs of the members of the family , where in, their indulgence in sadhana for hours together would disturb the families .For all these reasons women were prohibited from spiritual practices beyond a point .Since they used to do selfless service to the husbands and old in laws , looking after all the needs of the family members , they were assured of equal portion of the meritorious result accrued to their husbands.But the noble intentions of our seers and sages got twisted by some selfish aspirants .

rgds .

yajvan
22 June 2014, 06:17 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


. some parts of vedas create some excess heat and sometimes contribute to the dis functioning of female harmones.


Please supply us with some authoritative śāstra (śruti, smṛti, or āgama) reference on this matter that would support this view.
thank you,

iti śivaṁ

saswathy
22 June 2014, 09:14 PM
Dear friend ,
Once I met a yogi in Kedarnath who told me that , when I asked him , as to why women are not allowed the study of vedas. That was way back in seventies. He said '' the constitution of women is different . The role of women is different .The primary role of woman is creation . Some parts of vedas can create heat , some can create disturbances in the secretions of female harmones , they have menstruation which make them to stay away for that period .There are certain duties only a woman can do . They are not cut out for certain things . By nature they are emotional , sensitive , loving and impulsive .Suffice to know this much.'' He got very angry when I asked him about the relavant texts . I am sorry for not in a postion to provide source .But I do believe apthavakyam. At that time it self he was some 90 year old and all the people around that place told me he was a siddha yogi . rgds

silence_speaks
23 June 2014, 04:03 AM
Its not true that women should not study vedas!

http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhstvs/pdf/Isvaropasanam.pdf

There is a verse in yama smriti :
in earlier days, women used to wear sacred thread and chant gayatri and the vedas.


Vedanta , of course, says body is mithya and u r not the body.

Love!
Silence

saswathy
23 June 2014, 06:41 AM
Dear friend ,
very true . Even in Ramayana we come across a reference to Sita doing Sandhyavandanam .But many contradictions have been in vogue .I heard that the original Gayathri is different from the one which is presently done by all worshppers. Some modern rishies in the forum have to clarify the point .Paul Bruntan , was supposed to have witnessed a miracle where a light passed from the brahmin to sun in the sky when the brahmin did Sandhyavandanam with Gayathri manthra . I wonder whether it is different from what is practiced to day . rgds

silence_speaks
23 June 2014, 07:11 AM
Dear saswathy ji,
:)
The Gayatri mantra is fine.
only people do not seem to chant it properly.

shankara has given a bhasyam (commentary) on Gayatri mantra ...
I suggest you please go through the following audio to understand Gayatri better:

http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhstvs/mp3/Gayatri/Gayatri_Mantra_Shankara_Bhashya_1.mp3

http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhstvs/mp3/Gayatri/Gayatri_Mantra_Shankara_Bhashya_2.mp3

The text for these audios is available here:
http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhstvs/mp3/Gayatri/Gayatri%20Mantra%20Bhasyam.pdf

Love!
Silence

yajvan
23 June 2014, 01:11 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Once I met a yogi in Kedarnath who told me that , when I asked him , as to why women are not allowed the study of vedas. That was way back in seventies. He said '' the constitution of women is different . The role of women is different .The primary role of woman is creation . Some parts of vedas can create heat , some can create disturbances in the secretions of female harmones , they have menstruation which make them to stay away for that period .There are certain duties only a woman can do . They are not cut out for certain things . By nature they are emotional , sensitive , loving and impulsive .Suffice to know this much.'' He got very angry when I asked him about the relavant texts . I am sorry for not in a postion to provide source .But I do believe apthavakyam. At that time it self he was some 90 year old and all the people around that place told me he was a siddha yogi . rgds

While I do not doubt what you offer (as genuine) it would be of interest to note that about 400 seers¹ we call ṛṣi-s are responsibile for the ṛk-s found in the ṛg ved saṁhita. Of these 400 note that about 25 are female.
Also it is said (ṛg ved 1.31.16) that agni makes these seers. Agni is the epitome of the finest fire ( tapas) for transforming ( some prefer the word making (kṛt) as it appears in the śloka) .

So, not only are seers female, the quality of agni is the core ally (āpiḥ¹) of their transformation ( again a heat/purity principle).

iti śivaṁ

words

seer = draṣṭṛ = one who sees
kṛt - performing , accomplishing , effecting , manufacturing , acting , one who accomplishes or performs anything
āpiḥ or āpi - an ally , a friend ; causing to obtain

brahma jijnasa
23 June 2014, 05:46 PM
Namaste


In kaliyuga where people have 60 to 80 years to live are you trying to say that rules and regulations applied to people in satya yuga where they lived more than a lakh years are still relevant? The rule of any swimming pool is removing pants before entering the pool. The point is to be comfortable while swimming. But if due to circumstances i have to swim with my pants on does that make me a bad swimmer? Or are my pants more important than my swimming ability itself?

Good point. Today it is the age of Kali, the age of ignorance, the age in which everything becomes deteriorated and religiosity is significantly reduced.

It is said in the Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.43:


"O King, in the Age of Kali people’s intelligence will be diverted by atheism, and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so."

Many people are happy if they think about God at all, while many others do not have any interest for God. In such circumstances it is better that people who develop an interest in spirituality in any way come in contact with the Vedic culture, either through reading the Upanishads, or chanting of Vedic mantras like Om, etc. All this is better than not to come into contact with the Vedic culture at all. But the fact still remains that tradition does not approve of such an approach that everyone can do whatever he comes to mind regardless restrictions that were set.


Either way since you are a devotee yourself if you can show me one proof from any scripture that just Gods name without ashtanga yoga gives liberation id be grateful

There are several different types of yoga and it does not require that everyone should practice exactly ashtanga yoga.

It is said in the Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.44 that the holy name of the Supreme Lord leads to liberation:


yan-nāmadheyaṁ mriyamāṇa āturaḥ
patan skhalan vā vivaśo gṛṇan pumān
vimukta-karmārgala uttamāṁ gatiṁ
prāpnoti yakṣyanti na taṁ kalau janāḥ

"Terrified, about to die, a man collapses on his bed. Although his voice is faltering and he is hardly conscious of what he is saying, if he utters the holy name of the Supreme Lord (yat -- whose; nāmadheyam -- name) he can be freed from the reaction of his fruitive work (vimukta -- freed; karma -- of fruitive work; argalaḥ -- from the chains) and achieve the supreme destination (uttamām -- the topmost; gatim -- destination; prāpnoti -- achieves). But still people in the Age of Kali will not worship the Supreme Lord."

In his opening words, just before the start of recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama in the Mahabharata, (Book 13: Anusasana Parva: Section CXLIX), Bhishma said that 1000 names of Lord Vishnu are identical to mantra Om:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13b114.htm


"Hear, O king, the thousand names, possessed of great efficacy in destroying sins, of that foremost one in all the worlds that Master of the universe, viz., Vishnu. All those names derived from His attributes, secret and well-known, of the high-souled Vasudeva which were sung by Rishis, I shall recite to thee for the good of all. They are, Om!"

Here Bhishma clearly says "They are, Om!" which means that Lord Vishnu's names are identical to mantra Om. We should never think that holy names of the Lord have no spiritual potency.

It is said in the Atharvasiras Upanishad:


atha kasmād ucyate vaidyutaṃ yasmād uccāryamāṇa evātimahati tamasi sarvaṃ śarīraṃ vidyotayati tasmād ucyate vaidyutam

"He is called “vaidhyutha (electric)” because as soon as his name is pronounced, in the state of darkness where nothing is visible, the holy knowledge comes like a ray of lightning."

It is said here that as soon as holy name of the Supreme Lord is pronounced it enlightens a person, ie removes the darkness of ignorance like lightning that illuminates the darkness in the night. So it must be that holy name of the Lord is enlightening and represents what is called knowledge or cit.
In this material world every living creature lives in ignorance of his true spiritual identity as a spiritual soul. This ignorance is compared with darkness. But when uttering the holy name of the Lord darkness of ignorance is removed just as when lightning flashes in the middle of the night it immediately illuminate the whole sky and removes the darkness, or just like at the dawn when the first rays of the sun begin to shine they immediately begin to eliminate the darkness of night and day begins.

Thus by uttering the holy name of the Lord a person removes ignorance and comes to the level of knowledge and self-realization, and finally achieves liberation (mukti).


Gods name is no doubt important for beginners but that is the 1+1 for spirituality but if a person sticks only to gods name will he crack (a+b)2 of spirituality?
God is aum and if a person doesnt know anything about aum how can he get liberated from the shadows of duality?

Lord's names are meant for everyone, both beginners and advanced on the spiritual path. See above, the scriptures say that the holy names are identical to mantra Om, remove the darkness of ignorance, lead a person to the level of knowledge and enlightenment or self-realization, and ultimately lead to the liberation (mukti).

In the opening words, just before the start of recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama in the Mahabharata, (see above a link to the Mahabharata), Yudhishthira asked Bhishma:


"What religion is that which, according to thy judgment, is the foremost of all religions? What are those Mantras by reciting which a living creature becomes freed from the bonds of birth and life?"

Bhishma replied:

"One should always, with alacrity and throwing away all languor, hymn the praises of that Lord of the universe, that god of gods (viz., Vasudeva), who is Infinite and the foremost of all Beings, by uttering His thousand names. By always worshipping with reverence and devotion that immutable Being, by meditating on him, by hymning His praises and bowing the head unto Him, and by performing sacrifices unto Him, indeed by always praising Vishnu, who is without beginning and without end or destruction, who is the Supreme Lord of all the worlds, and who is the Master and Controller of the universe, one can succeed in transcending all sorrow.
... ...

Even this, in my judgment, is the foremost religion of all religions, viz., one should always worship and hymn the praises of the lotus-eyed Vasudeva with devotion. He is the highest Energy. He is the highest Penance. He is the highest Brahma. He is the highest refuge. He is the most holy of all holies, the most auspicious of all auspicious objects. He is the god of all the gods and He is the immutable father of all creatures. On the advent of the primal Yuga, all creatures spring from Him. On the expiration, again of a Yuga, all things disappear in Him. Hear, O king, the thousand names, possessed of great efficacy in destroying sins, of that foremost one in all the worlds that Master of the universe, viz., Vishnu. All those names derived from His attributes, secret and well-known, of the high-souled Vasudeva which were sung by Rishis, I shall recite to thee for the good of all. They are, Om!"


i have seen a famous cult propagating gods name and it is full of heinous activities and heinous people. Despite having all the crimes in the world they still say chanting the holy names protect people. Whereas people who do aum mind their own business and are peaceful and happy by actions and not just words

Now it is the Kali Yuga, the age of degradation. The influence of degradation can be seen in all spiritual organizations worldwide. Unfortunately Hindu dharma organizations are not exempt from this influence also. But that does not mean that all members of the organization are fallen and degraded or that the process of chanting the holy names is not correct.


Whereas i know another person who initiated foreigners into chanting the name of god in a fanatic fashion calling all other souls as “maidservants” ”demigods” and ended up calling the moons distance farther away from the earth than the suns and also stated that the stars get their power of illumination from the sun
And going by your own esteemed puranas and itihasas a lie never comes out of the mouth of a sadhu. Then how did this person speak so many lies despite being such a great scion of devotion?? I mean either he is not a sadhu or the puranas speak untruth? Pick one Care to elaborate?

Have you ever asked yourself whether there is a reason why he talked about these things, “maidservants” ”demigods”, moons distance farther away from the earth than the suns, etc?
There must be some reason why he said it. As a representative of a Vaishnava tradition he represented the views and interpretations of previous acaryas and what he learned from the writings.
In some of my earlier posts here on HDF I've already explained some of these things.


regards

saswathy
23 June 2014, 08:56 PM
Namasthe Yajwanji,

Yes .What you said is perfectly correct . May be there are exceptions in the sense sanyasis who do not want to lead the normal mundane life could take up the study of vedas with out any apprehensions.The thing is, there are so many divine secrets which do not come under the purview of logic of normal beings .He got so angry for questioning the source , I had to say sorry and leave it that . Even to day so many people say that women should not even recite sreesuktham , purusha sooktham , manthra pushpam etc . I don't agree for that , but I can't convince them either . rgds

saswathy
23 June 2014, 09:15 PM
Dear friends ,
it is given in all scriptures that the paramathma is the one and only supreme power and any upasana in any form to any goddess or god leads to his upasana . Though different names are given with different attributes and forms the essence of energy is same . It is a matter of personal liking . In fact any worship of any god would result in the fulfillment of mundane desires also and ultimately takes to ultimate goal of absolute reality .Even Bhishma or other devotees were in human forms , though many tales were woven around their births and super natural feats, and what they said and did was subject to perceptual reality .The veil of maya covers all , even if they are great gnanis , at one time or other .The line of demarkation between absolute reality and perceptual is very thin but non brittle . rgds

Soul of Light
25 June 2014, 12:38 AM
Namaste all!
Sorry, I am offline for some days, I manage to open HDF index but not reading replies to my thread..
Yesterday, I saw this discussion becomes so long and get many branches, yesterday I try to read all posts in this thread but its too late to reply so today I will try to give my views in this sub-discussion and main point of OM...
Thank You all for sharing your knowledge...
Regards. :)

Amrut
25 June 2014, 12:53 AM
Namaste all!
Sorry, I am offline for some days, I manage to open HDF index but not reading replies to my thread..
Yesterday, I saw this discussion becomes so long and get many branches, yesterday I try to read all posts in this thread but its too late to reply so today I will try to give my views in this sub-discussion and main point of OM...
Thank You all for sharing your knowledge...
Regards. :)

Namaste SOL,

sometimes, it is better not to read all posts, if you have got what you want :)

It happens here on HDF that threads continue at times on different topics ;)

Hari OM

Soul of Light
25 June 2014, 01:26 AM
Now about caste restriction, I should not open this close topic but you are telling it for my welfare so it's imp to give my view too...
This caste restriction is not for me as I am brahmin by birth and in brahmin sub-castes also I am belongs to higher classes but is it really matter?
Some people misinterprets the puranas and vedas (namaste brahma jijnasa ji, Thank you for telling me these but in this post I am not talking abt u but other who don't understand scriptures)
they also thought is it true? but then think its written in scriptures so it must be correct..
I am not telling scriptures are wrong but each restriction is made for specific function, time period and situation, I know who write puranas but don't know when :p but it must be other era than kali.. I think when puranas are written at that time this restriction is must but we can't say in this time..
At ancient times, the humans having qualities of brahmin and their goal is only god becomes brahmin, who have qualities of worrier become kshatriya etc. So this caste system is on qualities not on birth but in modern days some misunderstand this.
We should consider other factors also like we all are soul not body, god says I am everywhere and in each person, everyone is his creation.
Lord Krishna says "parivartan hi sansar ka niyam he" change is the rule of universe... So each rule is depends upon situation, in this era I see many brahmins by birth having zero interest in god and eating non-veg and all this, is om is for them? and the shudra having qualities of true brahmin om is not for him? I think this rule is for other era's not this, in this era we should consider caste from qualities.
In other era caste system is important for maintaining society, caste is important but when it becomes barrier in path of mukti and become bandhan then breaking it is not bad.
In mahabharat, karna supports adharmi only b'coz injustice happen to him because caste system, consider lord vishnu's avatar, lord parashuram is brahmin and hate kshatriya, lord ram himself is kshtriya, lord ram have one wife and lord krishna has so many, this difference is because of situation, change is must according to situation.
Gandhari in mahabharat got boon from lord shiva of 100 child, its boon at that time, but suppose gandhari get this boon in kali yug then it consider as curse not boon, imagine 100 child in kaliyug. Ok jokes apart I want to say only this.
Thank You!
(note: due to lack of exeperince and knowledge of scripture above my personal view may wrong, so sorry if I say anything wrong) :)

Soul of Light
25 June 2014, 01:33 AM
Namaste SOL,

sometimes, it is better not to read all posts, if you have got what you want :)

It happens here on HDF that threads continue at times on different topics ;)

Hari OM
yes, you are right Amrut ji..
But I alredy finish reading all posts :D I think, I should't give reply to all post as topics are already close... :)
regards

Soul of Light
25 June 2014, 01:38 AM
Namaste!
I think so conclusion is- if liberation is only my goal then OM is bestest for me and if I have material world desire then it is not for me, I am right?
So again it depends upon my situation..! :)
Thank You!!!

ganeshamylord
26 June 2014, 03:37 PM
Namaste

It is said in the Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.43:
"O King, in the Age of Kali people’s intelligence will be diverted by atheism, and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so."regards



You mean the same Srimad Bhagavatam which also says

tad-upariṣṭāc catasṛṣv āśāsvātma-yoninākhila-jagad-guruṇādhiniveśitā ye dvirada-pataya ṛṣabhaḥ puṣkaracūḍo vāmano ’parājita iti sakala-loka-sthiti-hetavaḥ.
Translation:
On the top of Lokāloka Mountain are the four gaja-patis, the best of elephants, which were established in the four directions by Lord Brahmā, the supreme spiritual master of the entire universe. The names of those elephants are Ṛṣabha, Puṣkaracūḍa, Vāmana and Aparājita. They are responsible for maintaining the planetary systems of the universe.??
So i should also accept that the earth is flat and carried by 4 elephants?
You were always talking of vedic culture yet you always quote puranas whose authenticity has always been debatable. Why dont i ever see you quote vedas? and if you always stress on puranas please use the term puranic culture and not vedic culture. There is a difference between both. Vedas arenot puranas. Vedas are intelligent,full of awareness and focus on the soul and not the body unlike the puranas which are full of external rules,regulations,and focus on the body and not the soul perpetrating caste system etc
And the mere fact that you stress on "culture" shows the importance you give to external rituals which is the sole cause for binding to materialism. You give no value to the sadhAna per se but you give importance to the clothes,the color caste creed and varna and who should recite what. Then who is bound by maya? The person who does Om or the person who judges others on basis of rituals?

Gods name is not for the advanced because once a person is advanced he will be out of the duality of names and forms. And even by your logic if Vishnus 1000 names are OM then why do you say that chanting Om is not recommended but chanting the names are??

ganeshamylord
27 June 2014, 07:31 AM
Namaste

In his opening words, just before the start of recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama in the Mahabharata, (Book 13: Anusasana Parva: Section CXLIX), Bhishma said that 1000 names of Lord Vishnu are identical to mantra Om:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13b114.htm

"Hear, O king, the thousand names, possessed of great efficacy in destroying sins, of that foremost one in all the worlds that Master of the universe, viz., Vishnu. All those names derived from His attributes, secret and well-known, of the high-souled Vasudeva which were sung by Rishis, I shall recite to thee for the good of all. They are, Om!"Here Bhishma clearly says "They are, Om!" which means that Lord Vishnu's names are identical to mantra Om. We should never think that holy names of the Lord have no spiritual potency.

It is said in the Atharvasiras Upanishad:

atha kasmād ucyate vaidyutaṃ yasmād uccāryamāṇa evātimahati tamasi sarvaṃ śarīraṃ vidyotayati tasmād ucyate vaidyutam

"He is called “vaidhyutha (electric)” because as soon as his name is pronounced, in the state of darkness where nothing is visible, the holy knowledge comes like a ray of lightning."It is said here that as soon as holy name of the Supreme Lord is pronounced it enlightens a person, ie removes the darkness of ignorance like lightning that illuminates the darkness in the night. So it must be that holy name of the Lord is enlightening and represents what is called knowledge or cit.
In this material world every living creature lives in ignorance of his true spiritual identity as a spiritual soul. This ignorance is compared with darkness. But when uttering the holy name of the Lord darkness of ignorance is removed just as when lightning flashes in the middle of the night it immediately illuminate the whole sky and removes the darkness, or just like at the dawn when the first rays of the sun begin to shine they immediately begin to eliminate the darkness of night and day begins.

Thus by uttering the holy name of the Lord a person removes ignorance and comes to the level of knowledge and self-realization, and finally achieves liberation (mukti).



Lord's names are meant for everyone, both beginners and advanced on the spiritual path. See above, the scriptures say that the holy names are identical to mantra Om, remove the darkness of ignorance, lead a person to the level of knowledge and enlightenment or self-realization, and ultimately lead to the liberation (mukti).

In the opening words, just before the start of recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama in the Mahabharata, (see above a link to the Mahabharata), Yudhishthira asked Bhishma:

"What religion is that which, according to thy judgment, is the foremost of all religions? What are those Mantras by reciting which a living creature becomes freed from the bonds of birth and life?"Bhishma replied:
"One should always, with alacrity and throwing away all languor, hymn the praises of that Lord of the universe, that god of gods (viz., Vasudeva), who is Infinite and the foremost of all Beings, by uttering His thousand names. By always worshipping with reverence and devotion that immutable Being, by meditating on him, by hymning His praises and bowing the head unto Him, and by performing sacrifices unto Him, indeed by always praising Vishnu, who is without beginning and without end or destruction, who is the Supreme Lord of all the worlds, and who is the Master and Controller of the universe, one can succeed in transcending all sorrow.
... ...

Even this, in my judgment, is the foremost religion of all religions, viz., one should always worship and hymn the praises of the lotus-eyed Vasudeva with devotion. He is the highest Energy. He is the highest Penance. He is the highest Brahma. He is the highest refuge. He is the most holy of all holies, the most auspicious of all auspicious objects. He is the god of all the gods and He is the immutable father of all creatures. On the advent of the primal Yuga, all creatures spring from Him. On the expiration, again of a Yuga, all things disappear in Him. Hear, O king, the thousand names, possessed of great efficacy in destroying sins, of that foremost one in all the worlds that Master of the universe, viz., Vishnu. All those names derived from His attributes, secret and well-known, of the high-souled Vasudeva which were sung by Rishis, I shall recite to thee for the good of all. They are, Om!"


regards


How will you then explain the same bhishma telling the same yuddhishtira one chapter later that the same Vishnu gets His powers due to His devotion to Lord Shiva and that he is incapable to recite the 1000names of Lord Shiva as He is beyond the turiya state?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a014.htm

"Bhishma said, 'I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the creator of universal self and the Pragna (knowing) self and he is their master. All the deities, from Brahman to
p. 37
the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti and Purusha. It is of Him that Rishis, conversant with Yoga and possessing a knowledge of the tattwas, think and reflect. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created therefrom the universal lord of creatures, viz., Brahma. Who is there that is competent to tell the virtues of that god of gods, that is endued with supreme Intelligence? Man is subject to conception (in the mother's womb), birth, decrepitude, and death. Being such, what man like me is competent to understand Bhava? Only Narayana, O son, that bearer of the discus and the mace, can comprehend Mahadeva. He is without deterioration. He is the foremost of all beings in attributes. He is Vishnu, because of his pervading the universe. He is irresistible. Endued with spiritual vision, He is possessed of supreme Energy. He sees all things with the eye of Yoga. It is in consequence of the devotion of the high-souled Krishna to the illustrious Rudra whom he gratified. O Bharata, in the retreat of Vadari, by penances, that he has succeeded in pervading the entire universe. O king of kings, it is through Maheswara of celestial vision that Vasudeva has obtained the attribute of universal agreeableness,--an agreeableness that is much greater than what is possessed by all articles included under the name of wealth. 1 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a014.htm#fn_31) For a full thousand years this Madhava underwent the austerest penances and at last succeeded in gratifying the illustrious and boon giving Siva, that Master of all the mobile and the immobile universe.

ganeshamylord
27 June 2014, 07:28 PM
Namaste


Have you ever asked yourself whether there is a reason why he talked about these things, “maidservants” ”demigods”, moons distance farther away from the earth than the suns, etc?
There must be some reason why he said it. As a representative of a Vaishnava tradition he represented the views and interpretations of previous acaryas and what he learned from the writings.
In some of my earlier posts here on HDF I've already explained some of these things.


regards
Namaste
But isnt an acharya supposed to be perfect? I mean if even an acharya makes gross mistakes,worse silly misakes then what is the whole point in worshipping God with names? If chanting holy names doesnt enlighten a person even after 70 years about basic material knowledge should i expect he has spiritual knowledge?
And is this what the holy names do? Take a person far away from the actual truth and reality and cloud him in fanaticism and delusion about reality?? And if the holy names you talk of didnt give even material knowledge to a person how do i believe they give spiritual knowledge unless by spiritual knowledge you mean downgrading other sects to establish self made agenda, calling woman inefficient and calling the earth flat? And besides these what other spiritual achievements did that person have?
I am asking this because if i have to choose a hospital i will go and check the credibility of the head doctor there. If i have to go to a spiritual hospital i will ask for the credibility of a person who calls himself an acharya. Or just because a person comes and tells me he is an acharya should i accept him to be one?
And whom should i follow? A Tulasidas who was so absorbed in Lord Rama that he knowingly or unknowingly resuscitated a dead man? Who exactly predicted the suns distance from the earth?
Or a person whose sole achievement was to get some hippies brainwash them into misogynism,anti science and anti societal standards where children were deprived of basic education and worse were abused and taught that they should be grateful to God for reducing their karma by getting abused early in childhood?

brahma jijnasa
30 June 2014, 10:01 PM
Namaste


You mean the same Srimad Bhagavatam which also says

tad-upariṣṭāc catasṛṣv āśāsvātma-yoninākhila-jagad-guruṇādhiniveśitā ye dvirada-pataya ṛṣabhaḥ puṣkaracūḍo vāmano ’parājita iti sakala-loka-sthiti-hetavaḥ.

Translation:
On the top of Lokāloka Mountain are the four gaja-patis, the best of elephants, which were established in the four directions by Lord Brahmā, the supreme spiritual master of the entire universe. The names of those elephants are Ṛṣabha, Puṣkaracūḍa, Vāmana and Aparājita. They are responsible for maintaining the planetary systems of the universe.

??

So i should also accept that the earth is flat and carried by 4 elephants?

Puranas say what they say. It's your choice what you're going to accept and what you will not accept.


You were always talking of vedic culture yet you always quote puranas whose authenticity has always been debatable. Why dont i ever see you quote vedas?

When I learned about Hindu dharma I learned from vaishnavas and especially from Gaudiya vaishnavas. They have had a custom to quote a lot from the Puranic scriptures but also from the Shruti scriptures -- Vedas. They believe that these Puranas are also authentic source of Vedic knowledge, and they give great importance exactly to the Puranic literature. When I quote the scriptures I usually quote what I see were quoted by various Vaishnava authors.


and if you always stress on puranas please use the term puranic culture and not vedic culture. There is a difference between both. Vedas are not puranas.

It is said in the Chandogya Upanishad 7.1.2 that Puranas and Itihasas are fifth Veda:
http://www.swamij.com/upanishad-chandogya.htm


Narada said: "Venerable Sir, I know the Rig--Veda, the Yajur--Veda, the Sama--Veda, the Atharva--Veda as the fourth Veda, the epics (Puranas) and ancient lore (Itihasa) as the fifth"

While it is true that Puranas and Itihasas are not Shruti, yet the fact is that in this verse they are called "fifth Veda" which means that they can also be called Vedic scriptures.
In fact we have an example of one of the Vaishnava teachers, it was Madhvacarya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhvacarya#Madhva), who had a habit all these scriptures such as Puranas, Itihasas, Pancaratras, etc, to call by the name "Vedic scriptures".


And the mere fact that you stress on "culture" shows the importance you give to external rituals which is the sole cause for binding to materialism. You give no value to the sadhAna per se but you give importance to the clothes,the color caste creed and varna and who should recite what. Then who is bound by maya? The person who does Om or the person who judges others on basis of rituals?
... And even by your logic if Vishnus 1000 names are OM then why do you say that chanting Om is not recommended but chanting the names are??

My intention is not to judge anyone here. These things about varnas, etc, were mentioned in both Shruti and Smriti scriptures.
Restrictions that were set in the scriptures as to who may or may not do something is not invented by me but these are statements of the scriptures, and is recognized by the tradition also.
The scriptures say that some people are Shudras by varna, and scriptures say that they are not allowed to study the Vedas, chant Om, etc. Also scriptures say that all men and even Shudras may pronounce holy Names of the Lord, so there are no restrictions in this regard.


Gods name is not for the advanced because once a person is advanced he will be out of the duality of names and forms.

Vaishnavas disagree with this view.

In the philosophy of Shankara's Advaita they will tell you that the duality present in names and forms is on the level of illusion (maya). Shankara taught that in the state of liberation (mukti) there is no duality but only absolute unity. For Shankara any sense of duality is merely a state of illusion (maya) that should be transcended when a person becomes spiritually advanced. Thus for Shankara the worship of the Lord with the holy names of God or worship of Lord's forms, eg form of God at the altar in the temple (murti), is just a sort of help to the devotee to make advancement in the spiritual life, but for him it is still a duality of names and forms, and therefore it is on the level of illusion, and at the end it should be discarded when a person is advanced and fully established in the Self (atma, Brahman).

But the Vaishnava philosophy, however, is different and does not agree with the views of Shankara's Advaita.
For Vaishnavas existence of duality that we see in this material world is illusory only in the sense if we, living beings, understand ourselves as this material body that we have, without knowing that actually we are not this body, but only a spiritual soul that dwells in the body. Thus, for Vaishnavas illusion (maya) is only identification of our self, jiva or jiva-atma (jivatma), with the material body, identification of our self with everything that we represent in this material life, etc. Only this is an illusion (maya). For Vaishnavas duality of this world itself is not an illusion!
Not only that but moreover for Vaishnavas even in the state of liberation (mukti) there is also a kind of duality that exists along with some kind of unity. In fact this is sometimes called "duality in unity" because in the state of liberation (mukti) there is no absolute unity that would exclude any kind of duality!
For Vaishnavas duality that exists in the state of liberation (mukti) by itself is not an illusion, but this "duality in unity" is the ultimate reality!!! Yes, exactly.

So, for Vaishnavas dedication to the Lord with bhakti when practiced as chanting the Lord's holy names or worship of God's form at the altar in the temple (murti) does not represent something that is intended only for beginners but is also intended for those who are at the highest level of spiritual advancement, so it should not be discarded when a person is advanced because it is not supposedly an illusion (maya) but is ultimate reality!!! :)
And finally shall we say, dedication to the Lord with bhakti with a sense of duality continues in the ultimate state of liberation (mukti) in the personal residence of the Lord, namely the eternal world of Vaikuntha, which is the highest possible achievement for the soul.


How will you then explain the same bhishma telling the same yuddhishtira one chapter later that the same Vishnu gets His powers due to His devotion to Lord Shiva and that he is incapable to recite the 1000names of Lord Shiva as He is beyond the turiya state?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a014.htm

"Bhishma said, 'I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the creator of universal self and the Pragna (knowing) self and he is their master. All the deities, from Brahman to
p. 37
the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti and Purusha. It is of Him that Rishis, conversant with Yoga and possessing a knowledge of the tattwas, think and reflect. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created therefrom the universal lord of creatures, viz., Brahma. Who is there that is competent to tell the virtues of that god of gods, that is endued with supreme Intelligence? Man is subject to conception (in the mother's womb), birth, decrepitude, and death. Being such, what man like me is competent to understand Bhava? Only Narayana, O son, that bearer of the discus and the mace, can comprehend Mahadeva. He is without deterioration. He is the foremost of all beings in attributes. He is Vishnu, because of his pervading the universe. He is irresistible. Endued with spiritual vision, He is possessed of supreme Energy. He sees all things with the eye of Yoga. It is in consequence of the devotion of the high-souled Krishna to the illustrious Rudra whom he gratified. O Bharata, in the retreat of Vadari, by penances, that he has succeeded in pervading the entire universe. O king of kings, it is through Maheswara of celestial vision that Vasudeva has obtained the attribute of universal agreeableness,--an agreeableness that is much greater than what is possessed by all articles included under the name of wealth. 1 For a full thousand years this Madhava underwent the austerest penances and at last succeeded in gratifying the illustrious and boon giving Siva, that Master of all the mobile and the immobile universe.

How to explain the statements in the scriptures that Lord Vishnu gets His powers due to His devotion to Lord Shiva?
It is indeed a good question.
Usually when we read descriptions of Lord Vishnu (Krishna) in the scriptures we see that He is described in the superlatives, as the highest, most powerful, the one on which the whole world rests, the creator and maintainer and the destroyer of the world, the Supreme Lord or Supreme Person, Supreme God, Supreme Brahman, etc.
Then, the question arises why is it that sometimes he is described as some kind of inferior God?
There are several possible answers to this question:

1) Sometimes the scriptures used an expression that does not have a primary meaning, but should be seen as a figure of speech.

2) Another possibility is that it describes the Lord's pastimes, so-called lilas.
In the above passage from the Mahabharata for which you gave a link we read that Lord Krishna received a boon from Lord Shiva. See Footnotes:


"37:2 The allusion is to Krishna's penances for gratifying Mahadeva in order to obtain a son. The son so obtained,--that is, as a boon from Mahadeva, was Pradyumna begotten by Krishna upon Rukmini, his favourite spouse."

Does Lord Krishna (Vishnu) need a boon from anyone? Does He need to perform some austerities to achieve something?
As if Lord Krishna does not have the power to achieve or get something on his own but he must perform austerities in order to please Lord Shiva and so get a boon from him?!
I think that anyone who is open minded person and who has read the Bhagavad gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Puranas and even Upanishads can easily understand that Lord Krishna is independent and all-powerful God who does not depend on anyone.

So this so-called "boon from Lord Shiva" and so-called Lord Krishna's "penances for gratifying Mahadeva in order to obtain a son" were either pastimes (lilas) or were 3), see the following:

3) Sometimes scriptures have content which is qualified as sattvic, rajasic and tamasic.

Sattva is the highest quality of nature, it is the quality of purity or goodness. The scriptures that are imbued with this quality of nature contain Vedic knowledge in its purest form.

But there are also the doctrines or teachings, or contents in the scriptures that are imbued with the lower qualities of nature, rajas (passion) and tamas (darkness, ignorance), which do not contain Vedic knowledge in its purest form but are mixed with some teachings that are not correct or are not truth or do not lead to liberation (mukti).

It is said that contents in the scriptures that describe the god Shiva may contain doctrines that are tamasic in nature. Thus for example it is interesting to note that in those passages in the scriptures where Lord Shiva is predominantly described sometimes there is a description of Lord Vishnu as some kind of inferior God, as we have here in this Mahabharata chapter. Lord Vishnu is definitely not inferior god and therefore the description of him as inferior god who got his powers from God Shiva should be rejected as false or tamasic doctrine. This is the point!

Also it is said that contents in the scriptures that describe the god Vishnu are sattvic in nature. This, however, does not mean that wherever Lord Vishnu is described in the scriptures it is sattvic content, and wherever Lord Shiva is described in the scriptures it is tamasic content because it may happen that within one scripture we have mixed content sattvic and tamasic.
Thus there is a division of the Puranas on the sattvic, rajasic, and tamasic ones.


But isnt an acharya supposed to be perfect?
...

As I said, some of the statements aforementioned acarya made I've already commented here on HDF. Look for some of old threads about it.
He did not support misogyny, anti science, etc.
If he called earth flat, the moons distance farther away from the earth than the suns, ... etc, he said that because the scriptures say so or because it is so explained in the tradition he belonged to.


I am asking this because if i have to choose a hospital i will go and check the credibility of the head doctor there. If i have to go to a spiritual hospital i will ask for the credibility of a person who calls himself an acharya. Or just because a person comes and tells me he is an acharya should i accept him to be one?

And whom should i follow? A Tulasidas who was so absorbed in Lord Rama that he knowingly or unknowingly resuscitated a dead man? Who exactly predicted the suns distance from the earth?

Today's scientists, who may even be atheists, also have the ability to calculate the distances between the earth, moon and stars but that does not make them acaryas. Doesn't it?
An acarya is not supposed to be someone who has materialistic knowledge but someone who is a soul surrendered to God, and who can take you to God.

Whom should we follow?
We should follow the acarya who belongs to a tradition that interprets the scriptures consistently with what these scriptures are saying, acarya who is repeating scriptural statements as they are, who is a soul surrendered to God, we should follow the acarya who follows the foremost of all religions:

Yudhishthira asked Bhishma just before the start of recitation of the Vishnu sahasra nama in the Mahabharata:


"What religion is that which, according to thy judgment, is the foremost of all religions? What are those Mantras by reciting which a living creature becomes freed from the bonds of birth and life?"

Bhishma replied:

"One should always, with alacrity and throwing away all languor, hymn the praises of that Lord of the universe, that god of gods (viz., Vasudeva), who is Infinite and the foremost of all Beings, by uttering His thousand names. By always worshipping with reverence and devotion that immutable Being, by meditating on him, by hymning His praises and bowing the head unto Him, and by performing sacrifices unto Him, indeed by always praising Vishnu, who is without beginning and without end or destruction, who is the Supreme Lord of all the worlds, and who is the Master and Controller of the universe, one can succeed in transcending all sorrow.
... ...

Even this, in my judgment, is the foremost religion of all religions, viz., one should always worship and hymn the praises of the lotus-eyed Vasudeva with devotion. He is the highest Energy. He is the highest Penance. He is the highest Brahma. He is the highest refuge. He is the most holy of all holies, the most auspicious of all auspicious objects. He is the god of all the gods and He is the immutable father of all creatures. On the advent of the primal Yuga, all creatures spring from Him. On the expiration, again of a Yuga, all things disappear in Him. Hear, O king, the thousand names, possessed of great efficacy in destroying sins, of that foremost one in all the worlds that Master of the universe, viz., Vishnu. All those names derived from His attributes, secret and well-known, of the high-souled Vasudeva which were sung by Rishis, I shall recite to thee for the good of all. They are, Om!"


regards

saswathy
01 July 2014, 02:46 AM
Dear friends,
It is Vishnu , that is the supreme power according to vaishnavaits . It is Shiva according to shaivaits and Rajarajeswri , Lalitha ,paramathmica according to SHaktheyas . It is Ganapathy according to Ganapathyas . as the supreme power .Thus the devotees of a particular deity see that particular deity as the supreme . The Absolute Reality is known as Brahman does not have name , attributes , shape , form likes , dislikes nothing . So where is the question of a particular manthra , upasana , offerings , boons , curses . all the worship of Gods with forms is sagunapasana and is meant for kamyas , that is for wish fulfilment , whether accepted or not , or whether known or unknown.It is a different point altogether that worship , even for a purpose also takes to Parabrahman one day .In the meanwhile all theories and statements given by all hold good to a certain point only whether it is Bheeshma or Rama or Krishna or Ramakrishna , who ever it is . They are all beings like us with different virtues , capabilities , thapas and attainments.Many stories are woven around them to create respect , reverence , awe authenticity of which is subject to yugadharma .

ganeshamylord
02 July 2014, 04:20 PM
Namaste Brahmajignasa



1) Sometimes the scriptures used an expression that does not have a primary meaning, but should be seen as a figure of speech.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________
Yes exactly but that applies when shiva worships Vishnu too or for that matter when any form of Brahman worships Himself



2)Does Lord Krishna (Vishnu) need a boon from anyone? Does He need to perform some austerities to achieve something?
As if Lord Krishna does not have the power to achieve or get something on his own but he must perform austerities in order to please Lord Shiva and so get a boon from him?!
I think that anyone who is open minded person and who has read the Bhagavad gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Puranas and even Upanishads can easily understand that Lord Krishna is independent and all-powerful God who does not depend on anyone.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________
I dont think there is any original Upanishad that calls Krishna as supreme. Also Bhagvad Gita is not Krishna Gita. And regarding who that Bhagavan is Krishna Himself says “He is Vishnu,Shankara etc” So Krishna was speaking of the Brahman in His self and not the cowherd Krishna that you speak of.
And please read Mahabharata where Krishna says in His previous incarnation He worshipped Lord Shiva for a million years.
Also prior to the creation He worshipped Shiva to get the sudarshana chakra.
Vasudeva, once more said,--Mahadeva. Gratified with me, O Yudhishthira, the illustrious Deity said unto me,--Thou shalt, O Krishna, through my grace, become dearer to all persons than wealth which is coveted by all. Thou shalt be invincible in battle. Thy energy shall be equal to that of Fire. Thousands of other boons Mahadeva gave unto me on that occasion. In a former incarnation I adored Mahadeva on the Manimantha mountain for millions of years. Gratified with me, the illustrious Deity said unto me these words:--Blessed be thou, do thou solicit boons as thou wishest. Bowing unto him with a bend of my head, I said these words,--If the puissant Mahadeva has been gratified with me, then let my devotion to him be unchanged, O Isana! Even this is the boon that I solicit.--The great God said unto me,--Be it so


Mahabharata
Rudra Bhakthya Thu Krishnena Jagat Vyaptham Mahathmana,
Tham Prasadhya Thadha Devam Bhadaryam Kila Bharatha.
Arthath Priya Harathwam Cha Sarva Lokeshu Vai Yadhaa,
Prapthavaaneva Rajendra Suvarnaakshan Maheswaraath.
Meaning:
The Great Lord Krishna, due to His devotion to the Supreme Lord Rudra,has Spread All Over The Universe, Oh Bharatha, Lord Shiva pleased by His penance in Badri granted Him the boon due to which He has Attained The State Of Being More Dear,Than All The Worlds And All Aspects Of Knowledge.

Yuge Yuge Thu Krushnena Thoshitho Vai Maheswara,
Bhakthya Paramaya Chaiva Prathi Sruthwa Mahatmana.
Meaning :
Lord Maheshwara becomes pleased and happy Yugas After Yugas, By this Krishna who is THE SUPREME DEVOTEE Of Lord Shiva which is accepted by mahatmas.

So Krishna worships Shiva in all yugas in all His incarnations and not just for begetting a child. Am sure you do know that the sudarshana chakra was granted to Him by Shiva. and it doesnt mean He is inferior. Just indicates that the Brahman worships His own self:) and so should we.




3) But there are also the doctrines or teachings, or contents in the scriptures that are imbued with the lower qualities of nature, rajas (passion) and tamas (darkness, ignorance), which do not contain Vedic knowledge in its purest form but are mixed with some teachings that are not correct or are not truth or do not lead to liberation (mukti).
It is said that contents in the scriptures that describe the god Shiva may contain doctrines that are tamasic in nature. Thus for example it is interesting to note that in those passages in the scriptures where Lord Shiva is predominantly described sometimes there is a description of Lord Vishnu as some kind of inferior God, as we have here in this Mahabharata chapter. Lord Vishnu is definitely not inferior god and therefore the description of him as inferior god who got his powers from God Shiva should be rejected as false or tamasic doctrine. This is the point!
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Haha you play this card very well but am sorry to burst your bubble but tamasic rajasic sattvic divisions are applicable to puranas and not itihasas like Mahabharata. But since you are a gaudiya vaishnava that is totally expected from you as this is nothing in front of the grosser concocted versions that have come from that tradition. Either way Krishna Himself talks of who worships Shiva.

"Vasudeva said 'Those sinful men with unrighteous deeds, do not succeed in attaining Isana. Their dispositions being stained by the attributes of Rajas and Tamas, they can never approach the Supreme Deity. It is only those regenerate persons who are of cleansed souls that succeed in attaining to the Supreme Deity"
So your statement that Shiva worship is sattva and tamasic is ignorant at its best. And am sure your gaudiya tradition is not greater than Krishna Himself and i dont think it is in a position to categorize Lord Shiva or for that matter any form of Brahman.


P.S And puranas are not tamasic rajasic or sattvic but they are written for people with those tendencies and to elevate them from those tendencies.






4)He did not support misogyny, anti science, etc.
If he called earth flat, the moons distance farther away from the earth than the suns, ... etc, he said that because the scriptures say so or because it is so explained in the tradition he belonged to.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________
He did and you will obviously believe what you deem is convenient for you but the truth goes the otherway round. Please google and find out if at all truth is what you want.




5)Today's scientists, who may even be atheists, also have the ability to calculate the distances between the earth, moon and stars but that does not make them acaryas. Doesn't it?
An acarya is not supposed to be someone who has materialistic knowledge but someone who is a soul surrendered to God, and who can take you to God.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Yeah but a scientist who is an atheist who teaches me about Truth is always better than a wolf in a sheeps skin that teaches me to go with blind faith and believe that the earth is flat. And whether a person is surrendered to God or not is shown by his actions and im sure stressing on child marriage ,racism,prohibiting female education are not one of them.





6)Whom should we follow?
Bhishma replied:
Even this, in my judgment, is the foremost religion of all religions, viz., one should always worship and hymn the praises of the lotus-eyed Vasudeva with devotion. He is the highest Energy. He is the highest Penance. He is the highest Brahma. He is the highest refuge. He is the most holy of all holies, the most auspicious of all auspicious objects. He is the god of all the gods and He is the immutable father of all creatures. On the advent of the primal Yuga, all creatures spring from Him. On the expiration, again of a Yuga, all things disappear in Him. Hear, O king, the thousand names, possessed of great efficacy in destroying sins, of that foremost one in all the worlds that Master of the universe, viz., Vishnu. All those names derived from His attributes, secret and well-known, of the high-souled Vasudeva which were sung by Rishis, I shall recite to thee for the good of all. They are, Om!"

____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________

Well in Bhishmas judgement he was incapable of knowing Shiva thats why he didnot name Shiva and stuck with Vishnu as that was the maximum his intelligence could take him to."Bhishma said, 'I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the creator of universal self and the Pragna (knowing) self and he is their master. He transcends both Prakriti and Purusha. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. Who is there that is competent to tell the virtues of that god of gods, that is endued with supreme Intelligence? Man is subject to conception (in the mother's womb), birth, decrepitude, and death. Being such, what man like me is competent to understand Bhava?
P.S Brahma is hiranyagarbha or mahattattva AA of AUM Vishnu is ishwara UU OF AUMand shiva is the ParaBrahman MMM OF AUM the turiya state.

Moreover Krishna Himself says Shiva sahasranama is the highest and i think i will take the word of Krishna and not bhishma if you give me a choice. Also here is the list of all the sages who consider Shiva as the supreme and i think KAPILA PARASHURAMA Agastya dadhichi valimki bhrigu tandi upamanyu vyasa yajnavalkya gautama atri etc are better than bhishma if you seek comparison
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a018.htm

lalit1000
06 July 2014, 01:12 AM
Why thrs a tendency of a certain organisation to always impose their God as superior to other Gods??.To my modest knowledge(and i'm not a Vedic priest or a scholar)its mentioned in the scriptures that none of the Trimurthis are superior to one another and they all are the same ParamBrahman's differnt attributes.
Ok so heres something for you guys to read .
Lord Vishnu explains the magnificence Lord Shiva to Lord Brahma:



Asmaan Mahattaram Bhutam Guhyama –nnyatra Vidyatey,
Mahatah Paramam Dhaama Shivamadhyaatminaam Param/
Dwividhamchaiva maatmaanam pravibhajya vyaksthitah,
Nishkalatra yoga vyaktah Sakalascha Maheswarah/
Yasya Mayaavidhijnasya Agamyagahanasyacha,
Puraa - prathamamlingodbhavam beejam twaadisargikam/
Mama yonow samaayutam tadbeejam kaalaparyayat,
Hiranmayakupaarey yonyaamandamajaayata/
Shataani dasavarshaanaamangmapsu pratishthitam,
Antey Varsha sahasrasya Vaayunaa tadhvidha krutam/
Kapaalamekam dyourjajney kapaalamaparam kshitih,
Ulbam tasya mahotsedho yosou Kanaka Parvatah/
Tatascha pratisandhyaatmaa Deva Devo Varah Prabhuh,
Hiranya garbho Bhagavanstwabhijajney Chaturmukhaha/
(There is no better Entity than Parama Shiva and there is no matter superior than His. The
Parama Maha Tatwa is Shiva and the embodiment of Atma Jnaana which again is
Paramdhaama. He is divided into two parts: one as the Nishkala-Avyakta-Adyanta Rahita
and another is Sakala and Saguna Swarupa responsible for yielding Hiranya Brahmanda
which floated in Maha Samudra for thousands of years and with the interaction of Vayu
got broken to two pieces, the Upper Half being the Upper Lokas and the Lower Half as
Prithvi with Hiranya Garbha Chaturmkukha inside.) Vishnu further described that
Parameswara created Sunya Akaasha, Nakshatras, Surya, Chandra, Agni, Pancha Bhutas,
Trigunas, Pranava, and so on. Such is the Glory of Shiva who is Veda Stuti Yogya! Thus
Vishnu explained the Parama Tatwa of Mahesha, Brahma was astonished, humbled and
overcome by involuntary emotions of devotion and joined Vishnu Deva in a his
Commendation addressed to Maha Deva.
Namastubhyam Bhagavatey Suvrataananta tejasey/
Namah Kshetraadhi patey Beejiney Shuliney Namah,
Sumendrayaachaarya mendraaya Dandiney Ruksharetasey/
Namo Jyeshthaaya Sreshthaaya Purvaaya Pramathaayacha,
Namo Maanyaaya Pujyaaya Sadyojaataaya vai Namah/
Gahwaraaya Ghateshaaya Vyomacheeraambaraaya cha,
Namastey Hyasmadaadeenaam Bhutaanaam Prabhavey Namah/
Vedaanaam Prabhavey chaiva Smruteenaam Prabhavey Namah,
Namo Dhruva nibaddhaanaamrusheenaam Prabhavey Namah/
Prabhavey Karmadaanaanaam dravyaanaam prabhavey namah,
Namo yogasya prabhavey Saamkhyasya prabhavey namah/
Rukshaanaam prabhavey tubhyam grahaanaamprabhavey namah,
Vaidyutaashaani meghaanaam garjita prabhavey namah/
Mahodadheenaam prabhavey Dwipaanaam prabhavey namah,
Adreenaam prabhavey chaiva Varshaanaam Prabhavey namah/
Namo Nadeenaam prabhavey Nadaanaam prabhavey namah,
Mahoushadheenaam prabhavey Vrukshaanaamprabhavey namah/
Dharma Vrikshaaya Dharmaaya sthitinaam prabhavey namah,
21
Prabhavecha Paraadhasya parasya prabhavey namah/
Namo rasaanaamprabhavey stanaanaam prabhavey namah,
Kshanaanaam prabhavey chaiva Lavaanaam prabhavey namah/
Ahoraatraardha maasaanaam Maasaanaam prabhavey namah,
Rutunaam prabhavey tubhyam samkhyaayaah prabhavey namah/
Prabhavey paraardhasya Paraartha prabhavey namah,
Namah Puraana prabhavey sargaanaam prabhavey namah/
Manvantaraanaam prabhavey Yogasya prabhavey namah,
Chaturvidhasya sargasya prabhaveynanta chakshusey/
Kalpodaya nibandhaanaam Vaataanaam prabhavey namah,
Namo Vishwasya prabhavey Brahmaadhipataye namah/
Vidyaanaam prabhavey chaiva Vidyaadhipataye namah,
Namo Vrataadhi pataye Vrataanaam prabhavey namah/
Mantraanaam prabhavey tubhyam Mantraadhi pataye namah,
Pitrunaam pataye chaiva Pashunaam pataye namah/
Vagvrushaaa namastubhyam Puraana Vrishabhaaya cha,
Namah pashunaampataye Govrushendra dhwajaaya cha/
Prajaa -pateenaam pataye Siddhinaam Purushey namah,
Daityadaanava sandhaanaam rakshasaam pataye namah/
Gandhravaanaam cha pataye Yakshaanaam pataye namah,
Garudoraga sarpaanaam pakshinaampataye namah/
Sarva guhya Pishachaanaam Guhyaadhipataye namah,
Gokarnaayacha goptrey cha Shankhu karnaaya vai namah/
Varaahaaya prameyaaya Ruksha virajaaya cha,
Namo Suraanaam pataye Ganaanaampataye namah/
Ambhasaam pataye chaiva Ojasaam pataye namaha,
Namostu Lakshmi pataye Shripaaya Kshiti paayacha/
Balaabala samuhaaya Akshobhyakshobanaayacha,
Deepta shringaika shringaaya Vrishabhaaya kakuthiney/
Namah Sthairyaaya Vapushey tejasaanuvrataayacha,
Ateetaaya bhavishyaaya Vartamaanaaya vai namah/
Suvarchase cha Veeryaaya Shuraaya hyajitaaya cha,
Varadaaya Varenyaaya Purushaaya Mahaatmaney/
Namo Bhutaaya Bhavyaaya Mahatey prabhavaayacha,
Janaaa cha namastubhyam tapasey Varadaayacha/
Anavey Mahatey chaiva Namah Sarvagataayacha,
Namo Bandhaaya Mokshaaya Swargaaya Narakaayacha/
Namo Bhavaaya Devaaya Ijjyaaya Yaajakaayacha,
Pratyudeernaaya Deepataaya Tatwaayaatigunaayacha/
Namah Paashaaya Shastraaya Namastwaabharanaayacha,
Hutaaya Upahutaaya Prahutapraashitaaya cha/
Namostwashtaaya Purtaayua Agnishtoma dwijaayacha,
Sadasyaaya Namas chaiva Dakshinaavabhruyaayacha/
Ahimsaayaa pralo –bhaaya Pashu mantroushadhaaya cha,
Namah Pushtipradaanaaya Susheelaaya Susheeliney/
Ateetyaaya Bhavishyaaya Vartamaanaayatey namah,
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Suvarchasecha Veeryaaya Shuraaya hyjitaayacha/
Varadaaya Varenyaaya Purushaaya Mahaatmaney,
Namo Bhutaaya Bhavyuaaya Mahatey chaabhayaayacha/
Jaraasiddha Namastubhyamayasey Varadaayacha,
Adharey Mahatey chaiva Namah Sastu pataayacha/
Namahschandriya patraanaam lelihaanaaya stragviney,
Vishwaaya Vishwarupaaya Vishwatahj shirasey namah/
Sarvatah paani paadaaya Rudraayaa pratimaayacha,
Namo Havyaaya Kavyaaya Havya vaahaaya vai namah/
Namah Siddhaaya Medhyaaya Ishtaayejyaa paraayacha,
Suveeraaya Sughoraaya Akshobhya kshobhanaayacha/
Suprajaaya Sumedhaaya Deeptaaya Bhaskaraayacha,
Namo Buddhaaya Shuddhhaaya Vistrutaaya mataayacha/
Namah Sthulaaya Sukshmaaya Drushyaa –drushya Sarvashah,
Varshatey jwalatey chaiva Vaayavey shishiraaya cha/
Namastey akra keshaaya Uruh Vakshahshikhaaya cha/
Namo Namah Suvarnaaya Tapaneeya nibhaayacha/
Virupaakshaaya Lingaaya Pingalaaya Mahoujasey,
Vrishtighnaaya Namas chaiva Namah Sowmyekshanaaya cha/
Namo Dhumraaya Swetaaya Krishnaaya Lohitaayacha,
Pishitaaya pishangaaya peetaaya cha Nishanginey/
Namstey Sarva Seshaaya Nirvimsheshaaya vai Namah,
Namah Eejyaaya Pujyaaya Upajeevyaayanamah/
Namah Kshemyaaya Vriddhaaya Vatsalaaya namo namah,
Namo Bhutaaya Satyaaya Satyaasatyaaya vai namah/
Namo vai Padma varnaaya Mrityughnaaya cha Mrityavey,
Namo Gauraaya Shyaamaaya Kadravey Lohitaayacha/
Mahaasandhyaabhra varnaaya Chaaru deeptaaya deekshiney,
Namah Kamala hastaaya digvaasaaya Kapardiney/
Apramaanaaya Sarvaaya Avyayaayamaraaya cha,
Namo Rupaaya Gandhaaya Shashvataayaakshataayacha/
Purastaad Brahmatey chaiva Vibhraantaaya krutaaya cha,
Duragmaaya Meheshaaya Krodhaaya Kapilaaya cha/
Tatkryaatarkya shareeraaya baliney ramhasaayacha,
Sikatyaaya Pravaahyaaya shitaaya prasru chaayacha/
Sumedhasey kulaalaaya Namastey shashi khandiney,
Chitraaya Chitra veshaaya Chitra varnaaya medhasey/
Chekitaanaaya tushtaaya Namastey nihitaaya cha,
Namah Kshaantaaya Daantaaya Vajrasimhananaayacha/
Rakshoghnaaya Vishaghnaaya Shitikanthordhwa manyavey,
Lolihaaya krutaantaaya tigmaayudha dharaayacha/
Pramodaaya Sammodaaya yati vedyaaya teynamah,
Anaamayaaya Sarvaaya Maha kaalaaya vai namah/
Pranavapranaveshaaya Bhaganetraantakaayacha,
Mriga Vyaadhaaya Dakshaaya Daksha yagnaantakaayacha/
Sarva Bhutaatmabhutaaya Sarvey shaantishayaaya cha,
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Puraghnaaya Sushastraaya dhanvinetha parashvadhey/
Pusha danta vinaashaaya Bhaga netraantatakaayacha,
Kaamadaaya Varishthaaya Kaamaanga dahanaayacha/
Rangey Karaala Vakitraaya Nagendra vadanaaya cha,
Daityaanaamanta keshaaya Daityaankrada karaayacha/
Himaghmnaaya cha teekshnaaya ardracharma dharaayacha,
Smashaana rati nityaaya namostulmukadhaariney/
Namastey praana paalaaya Munjamaalaadharaaya cha/
Graheena shokairvividhair bhutaih parivritaayacha/
Naranaari shariraaya Devyaah Priya karaaya cha,
Jatiney Mundiney chaiva Vyala Yajnopaveetiney/
Namostu Nrityasheelaaya Upanritya priyaayacha,
ManyaveyGeeta sheelaaya Munibhirgaayatey namah/
Katankataaya tigmaaya Agnipriyaaya Priyaya cha,
Vibhishanaaya Bhishmaaya Bhaga Pramathanaaya cha/
Siddhasanghaanu geetaaya Mahaabhaagaaya vai Namah,
Namo Muktaattahaasaaya Kshveditaasphotitaaya cha/
Nardatey kurdatey chaiva Namah Prasuditaatmaney,
Namo Mridaaya shvasatey Dhaavateydhisthitey Namah/
Dyaayatey Jrumbhatey chaiva rudatey dravateynamah,
Valgatey keedatey chava lambodara shaririney/
Namokrutyaaya krutyaaya Mundaaya keekataaya cha,
Nama Unmattha dehaaya kinkinikaaya vai namah/
Namo Vikruta veshaaya kruraayamarshinaayacha,
Aprameyaaya goptrey cha deeptaayaa nirgunaayacha/
Vaama priyaya Vaamaaya Chudaamani dharaayacha,
Namastokaaya tanavey gunairapra- mitaaya cha/
Namo Gunyaaya Guhyaaya Agamyagamanaayacha,
Loka dhaatri twiyam Bhumih Paadou Sajjana sevitou/
Sarveshaam Siddha yogaanaamadhishtaanam tavodaram,
Madhyantariksham vistreenam Taaraagana vibhushitam/
Swaateh patha ivaabhaati Shrimaan haarastavorasi,
Dishou Dashabhujaastubhyam Keyuraangada bhushitaah/
Visteernaparinaahascha Nilaanjanachayopamah,
Kanthastey Shobhatey Shriman Hema sutra vibhushitah/
Damshtaakaraalam Dhurdharshamanoupamyam mukham tathaa,
Padma maalaa krutoshneesham Shiro dyouh shobhatedhikam/
Deeptih Surye Vapushchandre sthairyam Shailanileybalam,
Aoushnamagnou tathaa shaityamapsu shabdombarey tathaa/
Aksharaantara nishpandaadrunaaneytaan vidurbudhaah,
Japo japyo Maha Devo Maha Yogo Maheswarah/
Pureshaayo Guhaavaasi khecharo rajaneecharah,
Taponidhirguha gurur -nadano Nanda vardhanah/
Haya seersho payodhaataa Vidhaataa Bhurabhavanah,
Bodyavyo bodhitaa Netaa Dhurdharsho Dushprakampanah/
Bruhadhratho Bheemakarma Bruhadkirti Dhananjayah,
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Ghantaapriyo Dhwaji Chhatri Pinaakini Dhwajanipatih/
Kavachi pattishi khadgi dhanurhastah Paramashvadhi,
Aghasmaronaghah Shuro Devarajotrimardanah/
Twam prasadya puraasmaabhirdwishanto nihataa yudhi,
Agnih Sadaarnavaabhastwam pibannaapi na truyasey/
Omkaarah Prasannatmaa kaamadah kaamagah priyah,
Brahmachaarichagaadhascha Brahmanyah sishta pujitah/
Shivonobhava sarvatra yosi sosi Namostutey/
(Hey Ananta Teja, Suvrata, Bhagavan, Kshetraadhi patey, Beeja Swarupa, Shuli,
Jyeshtha, Shreshtha, Manya, Pujya, Sadyojaata, Gahara, Ghatesha, Sarva Praana Swami!
My salutations to you to the Prabhu of Vedas and Smritis and all the inputs like money
and material required for spiritual deeds. You are the Master of Yoga and Sankhya which
are the significant means of Salvation, besides being the instruments like Maharshis and
Grahas. You are the Lord as also of the Swarupa of the endless beings of Srishti like
Rivers, Trees, the great Aoushadhis or medicines; you are the Dharma, its very existence,
and its various manifestations; You are the ‘Paraartha’or the Spiritual Quest; the Para
which is unaffected by Pancha Indriayas; the Rasaas; the Ratnaas; the ‘Ahoratraas’ or the
days and nights; the Pakshaas or the Fortnights, the Maasaas or the Months, the Rithus or
the Seasons like Spring and Autumn; You are the Most Ancient Prabhu performing the
task of Sarga or Creatin; You are the Yoga Prabhu, Manvantara Prabhu, Vishwa Prabhu,
Brahmadhipati, Bhagavan! You are the Master of Vidya or Knowledge; the Master of the
Masters of Vidya; Vratadaayika Swami; Mantra Prabhu; the Master of Pitreeshwaras; the
Pashupati; Vrishendra dhwaja; the Master of Prajaapatis; the Supreme of Gandharva Yaksha-Daitya-Danavas; the Swami of Garuda, Sarpa, Pakshis and various other species;
you are also the Head of Vaaraaha, Pischacha, Guhya, Gokarna, Gotra, Shankuka Karna;
Ruksha, Viraja, Suraganaa etc. Prabho! You are Swami of Jala / Water; the Swami of
‘Ojas’; (Power Essence or Semen present in males and females); the Lord of Lakshmi
Devi; the Bhupati or the King; You are the ‘Bala’or Physical Strength as also the ‘Abala’
or of Weakness; The Topmost Mount of the highest Mountain of Supreme Illumination;
You are the ‘Ateeta’or Beyond Approach; You are the ‘Vartamana’ or of the Present
Tense or of the Ongoing Time Frame; You are also the Bhavishya or of the Happenings
Ahead in the Future; You are the Suraveera or the Embodiment of Strength and Courage;
Varada or the Bestower of Boons; the Sreshtha Purusha or the Most Illustrious and the
Best Purusha or Prime Male; You are also the ‘Bhuta’ or a Being but as the Unique and
the Most Notable among the Creations of the Beings; the Word ‘Mahat’ or Magnificence
would indeed signify yourself. You are as miniscule as an atom and as Colossal that is
unparalelled! You are the symbol of Bandhana-Moksha or of Freedom from Shackles;
You are the Swarga and Naraka Swarupa signifying Salvation or Bliss and Punishment
and Retribution! You are the ‘Hutaagni’ or the Fire of ‘Homas’/ Sacred Agni Karyaas and
also the Upahuta or the Deputy who assists in performing of the Sacred Deed. Vishwa,
Vishwa Rupa, Vishwata, I bow my head to you Rudra! You are the ‘Havya’(Havana),
‘Kavya’(Sacrifice in favour of Pitras) and Hutavaaha (Agni); You are Siddha, Madhya,
Ishta, Suveera, Sughora, Krodha or Anger and Krodhi or who is angry; You are Buddhi,
Shuddha, Sthula / Gross, Sukshma (Tiny); Drushya or the Visionable; Adrushya or
Unseeable or Imperceptible; Sarvesha! You are Virupaaksha, Parama Linga, Pingala,
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Vrishti or Abundant; Dhuman, Sweta, Pujya, Upajeevya, Saviroha, Kshemya, Vruddha,
Vatsala, Padma Varna, Kamala dhaari, Kapardi, Mahesha, Kapila, Tarkya (Arguable) and
Atarkya; Chitra, Chitra vesha, Chitra Varna; Nilakantha, Anaama or Nameless and Ardra
Charma Dhari or Dressed in Wet-Skin. Parameswara! You roam about and even reside in
Smashaanaas or burial grounds! You are the Preserver of Praana or Life; You wear
garlands of Skulls! You are ‘Ardhanaareswara’ or Demi Male and Demi Female; You
sport a serpents as a Yagnopaveetas or as Holy Threads around and down his neck on the
back and front of his upperbody! You even were a repulsive physique and disgusting
profile; You Pameswara area an epitome of Great Radiance; You are ever resplendent;
yet as a Nirguna or devoid of Characteristics; You are ‘Vaama’ and Vaamapriya; You
wear Chudaamani or Crest Jewel; You carry gold chain as Brahma Sutra around the neck
and a Lotus circling his head; your body shines with the unusual illumination of Surya
and Chandra; You are Haya sirsha or of a head like horse; You are Vidhaata, Bhuta
Bhavana; Ghanta Priya or fond of Bells, of Dhwajas or Flags and of Chhatras or
Umbrellas.You are Pinakini or the Holder of Bow and Arrow called Pinaka; Kavacha or
8Shield; and Khadga. Mahadeva! You are a Brahmachari, Brahmana, Sishta, Pujya,
Krodhi, Prasanna, Sarva Karma rata or engaged in any type of deed; You do share the
Divya Bhogaas yet completely bereft of desires; You indeed are of Asankhya Tatwaas or
coultless features; Parama Siva! My Salutations again and again.)
Suta Maha Muni informed the Congregation of Munis at Nimisha Forest that whoso ever
recites the above Stuti every day, or atleast during Shraaddhaas or Yajnas or Avabhruta
Snaanaas after the Yajna would qualify for the performance of several Ashwamedha
Yagnas and Shiva Loka Prapti.
[Essence of Linga Purana]