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IcyCosmic
01 June 2014, 09:48 AM
Namaste all,
the more and more I seem to interact with westerns who are into spirituality, it seems a large percentage of them who have had exposure with buddhism/hinduism are into Tantra. A lot of the things they tell me go completely left field from what I've been taught and experienced. Can someone please explain the tantric tradition to me? I read the Wiki page and a few sites and also read this forum, but I'm still confused. Also I remember some of them go to a ''hindu'' workshop where people sexually harness each other (no penetration) in order to transmute sexual energy or something. Is this truly part of Hinduism or a perpetuation by the west? Thanks all.

Some also say there is a divide between what Tantra is and what it is perpetuated as? I would love a overall clarification.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Amrut
01 June 2014, 11:48 AM
Namaste all,
the more and more I seem to interact with westerns who are into spirituality, it seems a large percentage of them who have had exposure with buddhism/hinduism are into Tantra. A lot of the things they tell me go completely left friend from what I've been taught and experienced. Can someone please explain the tantric tradition to me? I read the Wiki page and a few sites and also read this forum, but I'm still confused. Also I remember some of them go to a ''hindu'' workshop where people sexually harness each other (no penetration) in order to transmute sexual energy or something. Is this truly part of Hinduism or a perpetuation by the west? Thanks all.

Some also say there is a divide between what Tantra is and what it is perpetuated as? I would love a overall clarification.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Namaste,

Even I am not very well conversant with Tantra. I will share little that I know.

Tantra-s are of three types external, mixed and internal. Actually all the Agama-s are called as tantra-s, specially Saiva Agama-s.

Some say, even panchrAtra has tAntrik elements. Brahma samhitA discovered or written by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is also said to have tAntrik elements.

Again tantra-s are vAmacAra (left hand path) and daxiNAcAra.

tantra-s are step by step procedure to please lord. The procedure is generally not disclosed to all. By practising them, one acquires supernatural powers (major and minor siddhi-s).

Even in vaiShNava-s have tAntrika path. Aga-as are more connected with temple worship, their procedures and other related matter. It is said that Sri Abhivanagupta converted a vaishnava agama into Saiva Agama. I dont remember the name of this text.

Initially there are external procedures, later there are mixed external and internal procedure, dealing with kundalini and nADI-s and chakras. Lastly, everything is shifted to internal practice.

e.g. of 3rd kind is projecting a devatA from AGYA chakra (3rd eye) or from anAhat (heart) chakra, then worshipping this devatA mentally with different items like offering flowers, etc. Everything is done mentally. After worship is finished, entire projection is pulled back. There are advanced practices for opening and cleaning nADI-s, raising kundalini and acquiring powers.

What is present externally is also present internally. An example can be found is Sri Abhinavagupta's gItA samgrah (Gita commentary). Here in some verses the great and unique tAntrika has given tAnrika explanation.

e.g. is kurukshetra is mind. kaurava-s and pANDava-s are negative and positive qualities.

Another interesting explanation given is:

There are devatA-s of 5 senses. They enjoy or are feeded by us through our enjoyment of senses. If one follows harsh way of not attending to sense pleasures, then this devatA-s do not get happy and so they obstruct our path. But if they are attended, then they allow us to progress spiritually and ultimately rise above sense pleasure. So there is both yOga and bhOga. This is a easy way to progress for all.

When one offers any prasAda to any idol of God or any devatA mentally, then that devatA accepts and enjoys this bhOga (prasAd) through the tongue of devotee.

Now, coming to seusuality. There is a mUdrA called as vajrolI mUdrA. It is mentioned in Siva samhitA. Here it is said that protection is semen is most important. When you mate with partner, then must suck back through phellus, his semen and seminal fluid of female partner. Now both types of seminal fluid is inside male. This is total conservation of seminal fluid in male. In this way if one practices and achieves mastery (which is quite difficult), then one can progress and get siddhi-s even while enjoying with 100 women.

It is said that same applies to women (Bhairavi).

Finally one achieves total control over his senses and progresses spiritually.

This path is not accepted by all Saiva-s and they reject Agama-s or portions of Agama-s that deal with such topics. They adapt pure daXINAcAra mArg.

viShNu's heaven looking like shape of eye, ISvara being said to be of size of goad, etc all have tAntrika meaning.

You must be aware of Siva linga being called as phellus and male female mating pair.

This is a negative left hand interpretation.

Shiva linga represents formless brahman and all Gods reside in this linga. refer this (http://indiaspirituality.blogspot.in/2014/02/shiva-linga-nirguna-brahman.html) link

It is said that agni is first expansion of Siva. linga also represent agni. Hence to cool down agni, water is constantly poured on Siva linga.

Kindly note that it is always said 'Siva linga' and not 'Sankara linga' or 'rudra linga' or by any other name. Siva is both formless and has form. Mostly Siva is connected with formless (nirAkAra). linga is representation as formless brahman also known as Siva, which is nothing but auspiciousness as brahman cannot be unauspicious. There is direction connection here of Siva with brahman and Siva can grant moxa (liberation).

I didnt dive much deep into tantra. I hope this is helpful.

Oh and most Buddhist practices are influenced by tantra (vajrayana Buddhism).

Maybe yogic and tantric explanation are able to impress western or modern mind.

Namah Shivaya

Believer
01 June 2014, 01:21 PM
Namaste,



Now, coming to seusuality. There is a mUdrA called as vajrolI mUdrA. It is mentioned in Siva samhitA. Here it is said that protection is semen is most important. When you mate with partner, then must suck back through phellus, his semen and seminal fluid of female partner. Now both types of seminal fluid is inside male. This is total conservation of seminal fluid in male. In this way if one practices and achieves mastery (which is quite difficult), then one can progress and get siddhi-s even while enjoying with 100 women.

Normally one would assume that when you quote something, you agree with the source and have also made an attempt to verify the contents of the quote at a personal level. Should I therefore think that you agree with, and have tried and to some degree been successful in the exercise that you describe so eloquently in the above paragraph?

Pranam.

Amrut
01 June 2014, 01:45 PM
Namaste,

Normally one would assume that when you quote something, you agree with the source and have also made an attempt to verify the contents of the quote at a personal level. Should I therefore think that you agree with, and have tried and to some degree been successful in the exercise that you describe so eloquently in the above paragraph?

Pranam.

Namaste,

Not everything can be practised at a personal level. I have mentioned it in my post hat I have not dived deep. Earlier I was associated with Kundalini Yoga and had some experiences of kundalini awakening.

Not all 700 verses of Gita can be applied by one individual. If you ask anaya bhakti, can it be done practically in physical life? But we try to. As far as vAmachari marg is concerned, I have personally not practised it, but shiva samhita says the same. So it is upto us to accept certain things given in shastras as authentic or not. Certainly I am not going to practice it.

I came to know about vajroli mudra when a discussion was going on about Adi Sankara's para-kAyA praveSa. He entered into the body of dead king and stayed in his body for 6 months. Before temporarily leaving his body, he assured his students that he has full control over himself as he knows vajroli mudra. Interestingly Adi Sankara is also said to be an adept in mantra sadhana and like his guru, he was a master of Sri Vidya upasana.

As it is said that there is no smoke without fire. This discussion made me curious and I found out that vajroli mudra is given in Shiva Samhita.

Still I understand your point and appreciate it (positively). Most of time I write things that I have experienced, hence my posts have less quotes, as I believe that rather than just quoting and memorizing shastra-s (which I am bad at), better is to apply them in your practical life.

I have also experienced and practised mAnasa pUjA and believe me, it has a deep impact. I surrendered all my chakras and offered them one by one to me central deity Siva (I am a smArta). (That day I didnt had flowers to worship). Shringeri Shankaracharya in one of his discourses had explained importance to manas puja. I think the topic was (Shiva Manas Puja).

There are certain experiences which should be kept to ourselves :)

Oh and Yes, preservation of semen is very important for spiritual progress. I think you will personally agree with it.

Regarding vajroli mudra, here are quotes




The Siva Samhita - Chapter IV

(9) Vajrondi-mudra.


53. Actuated by mercy for my devotees, I shall now explain the Vajrondi-mudra, the destroyer of the darkness
of the world, the most secret among all secrets.


54. Even while following all his desires, and without conforming to the regulations of Yoga, a householder can
become emancipated, if he practices the Vajrondi-mudra.


55. This Vajroliyoga practice gives emancipation even when one is immersed in sensuality; therefore it should
be practiced by the Yogi with great care.


56. First let the talented practitioner introduce into his own body, according to the proper methods, the germ-
cells from the female organ of generation, by suction up through the tube of the urethra; restraining his own
semen, let him practice copulation. If by chance the semen begins to move, let him stop its emission by the
practice of the Yoni-mudra. Let him place the semen on the left hand duct, and stop further intercourse.
After a while, let him continue it again. In accordance with the instruction of his preceptors and by uttering
the sound hum, let him forcibly draw up through the contraction of the Apana Vayu the germ-cells from the
uterus.


57. The Yogi, worshipper of the lotus-feet of his Guru, should in order to obtain quick success in Yoga drink
milk or nectar in this way.


58. Know semen to be moon-like, and the germ-cells the emblem of sun; let the Yogi make their union in his
own body with great care.


59. I am the semen, Sakti is the germ fluid; when they both are combined, then the Yogi reaches the state of
success, and his body becomes brilliant and divine.


60. Ejaculation of semen is death, preserving it within is life; therefore, let the Yogi preserve his semen with
great care.


61. Verily, verily, men are born and die through semen; knowing this, let the Yogi always practice to preserve
his semen.


62. When through great efforts success in the preservation of the semen is obtained, what then cannot be
achieved in this world? Through the greatness of its preservation one becomes like me in glory.


63. The vindu (semen) causes the pleasure and pain of all creatures living in this world, who are infatuated, and
are subject to death and decay. For the Yogi, this preservation of semen is the best of all Yogas, and it is
the giver of happiness.


64. Though immersed in enjoyments, men get powers through its practice. Through the force of his practice,
he becomes an adept in due season, in his present life.


65. The Yogi certainly obtains through this practice all kinds of powers, at the same time enjoying all the
innumerable enjoyments of the world.


66. This Yoga can be practiced along with much enjoyment; therefore the Yogi should practice it.


67. There are two modifications of the Vajrondi, called Sahajoni and Amarani. By all means let the Yogi
preserve the semen.


68. If at the time of copulation the vindu is forcibly emitted, and there takes place an union of the sun and the
moon, then let him absorb this mixture through the tube of the male organ [urethra]. This is Amarani.


69. The method by which the vindu on the point of emission can be withheld through Yoni-mudra is called
Sahajoni. It is kept secret in all the Tantras.


70. Though ultimately the action of them {Amarani and Sahajoni) is the same, there are arisen differences
owing to the difference of nomenclature. Let the Yogi practice them with the greatest care and
perseverance.


71. Through love for my devotees, I have revealed this Yoga; it should be kept secret with the greatest care, and
not be given to everybody.


72. It is the most secret of all secrets that ever were or shall be; therefore let the prudent Yogi keep it with the
greatest secrecy possible.


73. When at the time of voiding urine the Yogi draws it up forcibly through the Apana- Vayu, and keeping it up,
discharges it slowly and slowly; and practices this daily according to the instructions of his Guru, he obtains
the vindu-siddhi (power over semen) that gives great powers.


74. He who practices this daily according to the instructions of his Guru does not lose his semen, were he to
enjoy a hundred women at a time.


75. O Parvati! When vindu-siddhi is obtained, what else cannot be accomplished? Even the inaccessible glory
of my godhead can be attained through it.
source (http://archive.org/stream/SivaSamhita/SivaSamhita_djvu.txt)

yajvan
01 June 2014, 01:49 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

from a previous post ( some years ago):
For me I have heard this POV for some time:


Shiva Linga is a wide spread Indian Phallic figure
that the liṅgaṃ represents the phallus. I am not fond of this view and never bought in to this idea.

I could see how one may view the liṅgaṃ as the generative power of the Universe, yet I find no comfort in this POV. Liṅgaṃ लिङ्गं - means 'mark' or 'sign'. It is my POV that śiva-liṅgaṃ is a 'mark' or stambha स्तम्भ ( some write stamba स्तम्ब). Stambha is a post , pillar , column , beam. But what kind of pillar? A yūpa यूप stambha स्तम्भ, or sacrificial piller. This stambha some say, is a cosmic column; that is, it connects heaven or svar with earth or pṛithvī ( pṛithvī = the material level of creation).

I look to svāmī Lakṣman-jū's view on this matter and he suggests too it’s a mistake to consider that the liṅgaṃ represents the phallus. I then remembered what svāmī Śivānanda said on this matter¹:
"The popular belief is that the Siva Lingam represents the phallus or the virile organ, the emblem of the generative power or principle in nature. This is not only a serious mistake, but also a grave blunder. In the post-Vedic period, the Linga became symbolical of the generative power of the Lord Siva. Linga is the differentiating mark. It is certainly not the sex-mark. You will find in the Linga Purana: Pradhanam prakritir yadahur-lingamuttamam; Gandhavarnarasairhinam sabda-sparsadi-varjitam—The foremost Linga which is primary and is devoid of smell, colour, taste, hearing, touch, etc., is spoken of as Prakriti (Nature) ."

praṇām

references:
All About Hinduism, Appendix I, svāmī Śivānanda, The Divine Life Society.

Amrut
01 June 2014, 02:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namast

from a previous post ( some years ago):
For me I have heard this POV for some time:

that the liṅgaṃ represents the phallus. I am not fond of this view and never bought in to this idea.

I could see how one may view the liṅgaṃ as the generative power of the Universe, yet I find no comfort in this POV. Liṅgaṃ लिङ्गं - means 'mark' or 'sign'. It is my POV that śiva-liṅgaṃ is a 'mark' or stambha स्तम्भ ( some write stamba स्तम्ब). Stambha is a post , pillar , column , beam. But what kind of pillar? A yūpa यूप stambha स्तम्भ, or sacrificial piller. This stambha some say, is a cosmic column; that is, it connects heaven or svar with earth or pṛithvī ( pṛithvī = the material level of creation).

I look to svāmī Lakṣman-jū's view on this matter and he suggests too it’s a mistake to consider that the liṅgaṃ represents the phallus. I then remembered what svāmī Śivānanda said on this matter:
"The popular belief is that the Siva Lingam represents the phallus or the virile organ, the emblem of the generative power or principle in nature. This is not only a serious mistake, but also a grave blunder. In the post-Vedic period, the Linga became symbolical of the generative power of the Lord Siva. Linga is the differentiating mark. It is certainly not the sex-mark. You will find in the Linga Purana: Pradhanam prakritir yadahur-lingamuttamam; Gandhavarnarasairhinam sabda-sparsadi-varjitam—The foremost Linga which is primary and is devoid of smell, colour, taste, hearing, touch, etc., is spoken of as Prakriti (Nature) ."

praṇām

references:
All About Hinduism, Appendix I, svāmī Śivānanda, The Divine Life Society.

Namaste Yajvan ji,

I completely agree with you.

I forgot to add that linga it representing a beginningless - endless stambha, a pillar of light. Thank you for reminding Swami Shivananda's writings :) I feel that Sri Abhinavagupta's writings and interpretations are not easy to understand, as much depends upon our personal progress and experience. Swami Laxmanjoo says that without guru you cannot understand Sri Abhinavagupta.

Actually, it is just puruSa and prakruti. Even the word virya, though it is translated as semen has many meanings. On of them is pulsation, energy, power, spender, of unlimited potency (capability).

By reading the word 'pulsation', I recalled spandan kArikA, theory of pulsation. (source (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=virya&trans=Translate&direction=AU))

Dramatic representation or pictorial representation / imagination is not to be taken literally.

I too am not fond of this view. I am told that interpretation depends upon the mental make-up and mental status. sAttvika person (person with more % of sattva guNa) will interpret everything in a positive way.

Actually, Siva linga has no sharp edges, it may not have smooth finish. It is a natural stone. Anyone can make a linga our of wet mud and worship it anyone. Items required are also limited. Siva ji does not require decoration and is even pleased with natural items or materials found in nature, in forests. Even bilva patra (leaf) are easy to get. Water is easy to get. There is also a mAnas pUjA.

I think due to above factors, Siva worship was very popular everywhere.

Regarding taboo, I saw an interview with aghori-s and they said that nothign is that which is not Siva and hence nothing is inauspicious. When performing normally forbidden acts and practices, aghori-s stay detached from the objects and in this way they remain untained. They say a very strong mind is required. They even say that smearing ash on whole part of body acts as mosquito repellent. Ash is a stable material and it itself does not undergo any transformation or degradation and hence they use ash to apply it. He even said that ash has some healing abilities too. I do not know how much true these things are.

---

I am sorry if certain info is disturbing.

---

Hari OM

Pranams

Amrut
01 June 2014, 02:12 PM
Namaste Yajvan ji,

Have you read GYAnadeva's amrutAnubhava?. I have not read it fully but it is really filled with bliss with great poetic beauty.

It is available with samata books.

Amritanubhava is a great work praising Shiva and Shakti. Their unity, oneness and separateness are beautifully and poetically explained.

Pranams

Eastern Mind
01 June 2014, 04:33 PM
Namaste all,
the more and more I seem to interact with westerns who are into spirituality, it seems a large percentage of them who have had exposure with buddhism/hinduism are into Tantra.

Vannakkam Icy: I'll cut to the chase with my opinion. It's a bunch of hogwash ... nothing to do with Hinduism, and much more to do with the fact sex sells in the west. I suggest you ignore it.

Aum Namasivaya

brahma jijnasa
01 June 2014, 05:35 PM
Namaste

The term Tantra primarily refers to a group of scriptures, this is explained in the Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary:


a class of works teaching magical and mystical formularies (mostly in the form of dialogues between śiva and durgā and said to treat of 5 subjects , 1. the creation , 2. the destruction of the world , 3. the worship of the gods , 4. the attainment of all objects , esp. of 6 superhuman faculties , 5. the 4 modes of union with the supreme spirit by meditation

But the term can also apply to any other doctrine. So even the Vaishnava scriptures can be called thus vaishnava tantras. But it is quite doubtful how much all this has to do with some kind of "transmute sexual energy or something".


regards

fem_phoenix1109
01 June 2014, 06:30 PM
Vannakkam Icy: I'll cut to the chase with my opinion. It's a bunch of hogwash ... nothing to do with Hinduism, and much more to do with the fact sex sells in the west. I suggest you ignore it.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste,

I have to agree with this. A lot of the popular 'Tantra" that you will find here in the west has been very far removed from what it might have meant originally, and has nothing to do with Hinduism or spirituality.

I typed in books on Tantra in Amazon just to get an idea, and came back with a list that includes the following:

Sex Yoga - The Seven Easy Steps to a Mind Blowing Kundalini Orgasm
Tantric Sex for Busy Couples: How to Deepen You Passion in Just Ten Minutes a Day
Tantra Between the Sheets: The Easy and Fun Guide to Mind-Blowing Sex
Tantric Sex for Women: A Guide for Lesbian, Bi, Hetero, and Solo LoversI could go on and on and on, but I think you get the idea. Frankly it is just embarrassing that this culture has taken something deep and spiritual and reduced it to what you see in that list.



Pranam.

IcyCosmic
01 June 2014, 06:37 PM
Vannakkam Icy: I'll cut to the chase with my opinion. It's a bunch of hogwash ... nothing to do with Hinduism, and much more to do with the fact sex sells in the west. I suggest you ignore it.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste, that is what I thought, but why is this issue so deep in the fog?
Is Tantra wholly hogwash or just the version promoted in the west?

IcyCosmic
01 June 2014, 06:39 PM
Namaste,

I have to agree with this. A lot of the popular 'Tantra" that you will find here in the west has been very far removed from what it might have meant originally, and has nothing to do with Hinduism or spirituality.

I typed in books on Tantra in Amazon just to get an idea, and came back with a list that includes the following:
Sex Yoga - The Seven Easy Steps to a Mind Blowing Kundalini Orgasm
Tantric Sex for Busy Couples: How to Deepen You Passion in Just Ten Minutes a Day
Tantra Between the Sheets: The Easy and Fun Guide to Mind-Blowing Sex
Tantric Sex for Women: A Guide for Lesbian, Bi, Hetero, and Solo LoversI could go on and on and on, but I think you get the idea. Frankly it is just embarrassing that this culture has taken something deep and spiritual and reduced it to what you see in that list.



Pranam.

Goodness gracious. What nonsense. Seeing your beloved as the goddess she rightfully embodies is one thing, but this is clearly just money-grabbing garbage.

Eastern Mind
01 June 2014, 06:55 PM
Is Tantra wholly hogwash or just the version promoted in the west?

Vannakkam: No it is not wholly hogwash, just the western stuff. I practice something called the Vasana Daha Tantra, and in this case it roughly means 'method'. So there are legitimate uses of the word, and it is an esoteric field, but under the guidance of a Guru, and certainly not to increase instinctive pleasures.

We're supposed to be retreating from the instinct, subduing, controlling, etc., not finding ways to increase it's affect on us.

Aum Namasivaya

Ekam
01 June 2014, 06:56 PM
Namaste all,
the more and more I seem to interact with westerns who are into spirituality, it seems a large percentage of them who have had exposure with buddhism/hinduism are into Tantra. A lot of the things they tell me go completely left field from what I've been taught and experienced. Can someone please explain the tantric tradition to me? I read the Wiki page and a few sites and also read this forum, but I'm still confused. Also I remember some of them go to a ''hindu'' workshop where people sexually harness each other (no penetration) in order to transmute sexual energy or something. Is this truly part of Hinduism or a perpetuation by the west? Thanks all.

Some also say there is a divide between what Tantra is and what it is perpetuated as? I would love a overall clarification.

Aum Namah Shivaya

The Tantric texts provide three paths for attainment of sucess in sadhana, according to the level of conciousness of the sadhaka. They are the pashyachara, virachara and divyachara.

The Tantra establish that people of predominant tamasic nature should be given initiation in pashyachara; people of predominant rajasic nature in virachara; and only pure people of very high sattvic nature should practice the way of divyachara.

There are some rites prescribed in the Tantras that involves sexual intercourse with a woman (bhairavi). But those rites can only be done under very sctrict rules laided by the tantra shastra and only by those initiated in virachara and of advanced practice.

The problem arises when people ignorant of this fact (or pretending to be ignorant) start to preach tantra as if it was a system where sex is used freely and that its sexual rites are for everyone to do in every way possible, and this is very far from what the scriptures says.

Ritual intercourse is only a very little part of the whole of Tantra. The rest is happily ignored by those who are only after enjoyment under the disguise of spirituality.

Believer
01 June 2014, 07:06 PM
Namaste,


I'll cut to the chase with my opinion. It's a bunch of hogwash ... nothing to do with Hinduism, and much more to do with the fact sex sells in the west. I suggest you ignore it.

+1
Could not have said it better.

Pranam.

ShivaFan
01 June 2014, 09:56 PM
Namaste

There is a Tantriks temple on an island not far from where I live. To be honest, I won't go to that temple even though I am a temple fanatic. Frankly, it seems they worship blood from females and the pujaris are Euro females who seem masculine. Sort of scares me.

But some Tantra is nice. But most Devi temples here are your village type Hindu Devi temples you find in India, which are the ones I love. They may have a Hreem Kleem here and there, but the Goddess is always beautiful and electric and the pujaris (often with a red vertical tilak) are wonderful.

As for Kali pujaris, only a very special one can be a Kali Pujari. I never will question a Kali Pujari. They are very specialized.

Om Namah Sivaya

Mana
02 June 2014, 12:44 AM
Namaste Icy,

Tantra means literally, "doctrine"; think about the true meaning and root of this word for a clear picture.
Tantra has risen from the sāṃkhya school of philosophy, one of the six principle philosophies of sanatana dharma.

Reality has been explained here, initially by way of 25 tattva upon which at a later date, Ādi Śaṅkarācārya has expanded the advaita philosophy to unite the duality all whilst preserving the foundations; Think of this as a mathematical model and refer again to "doctrine".

The Western interpretation of tantra is a rather contorted affair.
Arguably some of the "tantric" Indian interpretations also; The Kashmir shavite master swami Lakshman Jū has sited there to be a certain amount of misinterpretation of many of the tantra, and thus a failure to produce fruit by their practice.

You might like to investigate śāradā tilaka tantram, to get a feel for what tantra is or can be ... But remember that with out a Guru, interpretation is only that, an interpretation. Reality manifests from sound and not from form; which comes afterwards, in accordance with śāradā tilaka.

The tattva of creative action, one of the panca karmendriyas is upastha, this is force creativity, for tool making and invention music even; I think, often mistranslated as sex.

There is an interesting innate connection between bi-polarity and invention ...

Kind regards.

IcyCosmic
02 June 2014, 06:53 AM
Namaste Icy,

Tantra means literally, "doctrine"; think about the true meaning and root of this word for a clear picture.
Tantra has risen from the sāṃkhya school of philosophy, one of the six principle philosophies of sanatana dharma.

Reality has been explained here, initially by way of 25 tattva upon which at a later date, Ādi Śaṅkarācārya has expanded the advaita philosophy to unite the duality all whilst preserving the foundations; Think of this as a mathematical model and refer again to "doctrine".

The Western interpretation of tantra is a rather contorted affair.
Arguably some of the "tantric" Indian interpretations also; The Kashmir shavite master swami Lakshman Jū has sited there to be a certain amount of misinterpretation of many of the tantra, and thus a failure to produce fruit by their practice.

You might like to investigate śāradā tilaka tantram, to get a feel for what tantra is or can be ... But remember that with out a Guru, interpretation is only that, an interpretation. Reality manifests from sound and not from form; which comes afterwards, in accordance with śāradā tilaka.

The tattva of creative action, one of the panca karmendriyas is upastha, this is force creativity, for tool making and invention music even; I think, often mistranslated as sex.

There is an interesting innate connection between bi-polarity and invention ...

Kind regards.

Namaste,
Thankyou. That certainly helps clear things.

Eastern Mind
02 June 2014, 07:40 AM
Vannakkam Icy: This may (or may not) also be helpful..

from the lexicon of Dancing with Siva, (but summarised by me for simplicity)

1) most generally, a synonym for shastra (scripture)
2) a synonym for the Agamic texts, especially those of the Shakta faith
3) a specific method, technique, or spiritual practice within the Shakta or Saiva traditions, generally used to have energy flow upward through the sushumna

so from 3 above, pranayama would be considered a tantra.

For me personally, I see it as #3.

Aum Namasivaya

Kalicharan Tuvij
02 June 2014, 07:52 AM
Namaste,

After the Satayuga,
The knowledge of Veda
Fragmented into many.
The two most prominent parts
came to be:- Vedanta and Yoga.

For some reasons,
Political and social power
Remained with the Vedanti-s.

Yogi-s were discarded
Off the mainstream.

Tantra is
The start of Yoga.

It could be violent,
It could be silent,
For even HaTha Yoga
Is a kind of Tantra.

In India,
The illiterates are
The wisest people.
They live in villages,
And just do bhakti.


Sri Ram,

IcyCosmic
02 June 2014, 09:05 AM
Vannakkam Icy: This may (or may not) also be helpful..

from the lexicon of Dancing with Siva, (but summarised by me for simplicity)

1) most generally, a synonym for shastra (scripture)
2) a synonym for the Agamic texts, especially those of the Shakta faith
3) a specific method, technique, or spiritual practice within the Shakta or Saiva traditions, generally used to have energy flow upward through the sushumna

so from 3 above, pranayama would be considered a tantra.

For me personally, I see it as #3.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,
Yes that is helpful! I think I remember coming across this in Dancing with Siva but without the context you have all given it was just as confusing! I was originally told Tantra is a form of meditation or path of union with god, so when these ''new-age'' Tantric practicioners propound their make-shift classes as genuine tantra so convincingly it only leaves me even more bewildered.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Ram11
02 June 2014, 12:33 PM
Namaste,

In India,
The illiterates are
The wisest people.
They live in villages,
And just do bhakti.



Namaste Ji,

I agree.:)
Bhaktas,indeed they are the luckiest ones!A devotee's mind that is filled with Bhakti doesn't need to worry about anything else.It is the best thing IMHO.

Ram11
02 June 2014, 12:41 PM
Vannakkam: No it is not wholly hogwash, just the western stuff. I practice something called the Vasana Daha Tantra, and in this case it roughly means 'method'.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste Ji,

Could you tell me what is Vasana Daha Tantra?

Eastern Mind
02 June 2014, 10:25 PM
Namaste Ji,

Could you tell me what is Vasana Daha Tantra?


Vannakkam: It's a method. Write out all your thoughts, especially negative ones, with emotion, then burn it in an inauspicious place. Some of the emotion goes with it. It helps to get rid of anger towards an individual, for example.

Modern psychologists also recommend it about your boss, colleagues, etc. I've done it, and it works for me.

Aum Namasivaya

Amrut
03 June 2014, 06:44 AM
Interesting explanation (I have not read he whole article)

http://mahapashupatastra.blogspot.in/2012/10/explanation-of-real-sri-vidya-and.html

OM

ganeshamylord
03 June 2014, 12:22 PM
Namaste,



+1
Could not have said it better.

Pranam.



Namaste
The problem with most of us is we have long lost the ability of questioning to blind faith and thats where the question of progression gets destroyed. We follow what we are taught and not what we experience. Most of the devotional forms focus on the face value of blind faith. Now we call the Bhagavata purana(or most puranas) the best purana yet we find statements like earth is flat,false moon distance and many many scientific inaccuracies. Now if I do sing and dance kirtans based on this inaccuracy, stop questioning and take the side of untruth in the pretext of humility i am called a great bhagavata .If i dare to question it and try to rise above ignorance i become a pashandi and go to hell.
If i can believe that the earth is flat then what is the problem in believing that sex gives salvation
If we can call sexual tantra which we never even experienced in the first place as a hogwash ,, why are we so afraid of doing the same with puranas or other stories which have on your face inaccuracies? If sexual tantra focuses on the weakness of foreigners which is sex is it wrong to think the puranas focus on the Indian weakness of fear of hell which makes them believe in all the cock and bull stories in the pretext of humility and devotion?
Is the sexual tantra worse than fear of hell,fanaticism,ignorance that many fanatic believers have? Is sexual tantra worse than the emotional weakness that we have where we call a book perfect and God written despite knowing it has several blunders which are both unscientific and unspiritual? Arent we being hypocritical when we conveniently judge sexual tantra before even experiencing it just because it doesn’t conform to our standard form of belief system?
If we are brave enough to call something which we personally never experienced as a hogwash why aren’t we brave enough to question the more obvious puranas where a lot of stuff written is inaccurate?
Personally i dont know anything about sexual tantra but i find it very amusing when people who tell me not to call a cult a cult, themselves pass judgements on stuff they have no clue about.

yajvan
03 June 2014, 01:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

If one takes the time to read the works of this tantra in question one will see it is far beyond the notion of sexual congress. Yet in the West as soon as they hear ~sexual~ the mind guides them to the only data point they have - that of passions and the 'intercourse' that comes of this. It is like giving a child a diamond and they throw it around as if it were a stone.
They spend no time on the underlying principles, do not comprehend the notion of tantra or its two-pronged approach - some classify as āgama and nigama.

From these two broad classifications (āgama and nigama) it is said there are 6 types of sambandha (or personal connection , relationship , fellowship , friendship , intimacy ) between the teacher and the taught. This goes from para, the highest , where the questioner and answerer are both śiva to adivya sambandha where the teacher and taught are humans. I will not go into the other 4 as that will pull the reader away from the subject at hand.

So this whole ~sexual~ tantra is generally not understood ; one does not even know the qualifications of who is to practice this. And one does not know that not even one drop of śukra (seed) is dropped when properly practiced. Yet in the West this tantra it is seen as a 'get out of jail card' , that the mind once more wins and a person thinks they are actually doing a spiritual practice.


iti śivaṁ

yajvan
03 June 2014, 04:07 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namaste


Namaste

The term Tantra primarily refers to a group of scriptures, this is explained in the Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary:
a class of works teaching magical and mystical formularies (mostly in the form of dialogues between śiva and durgā and said to treat of 5 subjects , 1. the creation , 2. the destruction of the world , 3. the worship of the gods , 4. the attainment of all objects , esp. of 6 superhuman faculties , 5. the 4 modes of union with the supreme spirit by meditation

But the term can also apply to any other doctrine. So even the Vaishnava scriptures can be called thus vaishnava tantras. But it is quite doubtful how much all this has to do with some kind of "transmute sexual energy or something".
 
I thought to add a bit to the defintion above.

tantra तन्त्र - as a noun means a loom; the notion of weaving comes to mind as this word is also used for a row , number , series , that you would find in a weave. If this is a loom, then who are the weavers? Śiva and Śakti. And what is woven? Creation. It is creation that is worn by us, woven by Them.
Let's look at its components - tan + tra

tan तन्- to extend , spread , be diffused (as light) over , shine , extend towards ; to extend or bend. The masculine applicaton is uninterrupted succession.
tra त्र- is protecting. Hence tan + tra is that which is extended, protecting overall.

Yet too some can say that tan + tra is the spreading of higher knowledge (light, shine)

Tantra can also look to a root of trai - to protect , preserve , cherish , defend , rescue from hence to ~spread~ protection. Some also look to this tantra as tantratā - comprehending several rites in one ( ususally from the mīmāṁsā¹ point of view)
 
As aforementioned if this is a loom, then who are the weavers? Śiva and Śakti.

It is interesting to note a simple connection back to weaving:

siva सिव or sivaka - means one one who sews or stitches , a sewer , stitcher. As siv सिव् means to sew, stitch, darn.
This is not to be confused with śiva शिव rooted śī शी , " in whom all things lie " ; This śiva we know as The Auspicious One , the Supreme, the unsurpassable (anuttara). iti śivaṁ

1. mīmāṁsā - the pūrva-mīmāṁsā or karma-mīmāṁsā by jaimini , concerning itself chiefly with the correct interpretation of Vedic ritual and text

Amrut
04 June 2014, 05:15 AM
Thank you Yajvan ji for enlightening explanation. Very pleased to read such a explanation. Only sattvik mind can think in this way.

__/ \__

Mana
04 June 2014, 01:18 PM
Namaste,

Yes, wonderful posts Yajvan ji, thank you for your explanation; such a beautiful tapestry.

Pranam

IcyCosmic
07 June 2014, 09:50 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namaste


 
I thought to add a bit to the defintion above.
tantra तन्त्र - as a noun means a loom; the notion of weaving comes to mind as this word is also used for a row , number , series , that you would find in a weave. If this is a loom, then who are the weavers? Śiva and Śakti. And what is woven? Creation. It is creation that is worn by us, woven by Them.
Let's look at its components - tan + tra
tan तन्- to extend , spread , be diffused (as light) over , shine , extend towards ; to extend or bend. The masculine applicaton is uninterrupted succession.
tra त्र- is protecting. Hence tan + tra is that which is extended, protecting overall.

Yet too some can say that tan + tra is the spreading of higher knowledge (light, shine)

Tantra can also look to a root of trai - to protect , preserve , cherish , defend , rescue from hence to ~spread~ protection. Some also look to this tantra as tantratā - comprehending several rites in one ( ususally from the mīmāṁsā¹ point of view)
 
As aforementioned if this is a loom, then who are the weavers? Śiva and Śakti.

It is interesting to note a simple connection back to weaving:
siva सिव or sivaka - means one one who sews or stitches , a sewer , stitcher. As siv सिव् means to sew, stitch, darn.
This is not to be confused with śiva शिव rooted śī शी , " in whom all things lie " ; This śiva we know as The Auspicious One , the Supreme, the unsurpassable (anuttara). iti śivaṁ

1. mīmāṁsā - the pūrva-mīmāṁsā or karma-mīmāṁsā by jaimini , concerning itself chiefly with the correct interpretation of Vedic ritual and text

Namaste,

your wisdom brings stillness to my agitated mind. Thankyou.

Trika-Mahaa
09 June 2014, 12:43 AM
I giggle when people ask me about tantra and sex.

I tell them that Siva and Shakti had sex and out popped Nara, but the father, the mother and the baby are all the same. Pratibimbabimba :-p

Aham!
Dan

yajvan
16 June 2016, 08:08 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namaste

I wrote in post 28 above,



· tantra तन्त्र - as a noun means a loom; the notion of weaving comes to mind as this word is also used for a row , number , series , that you would find in a weave.
If this is a loom, then who are the weavers? Śiva and Śakti. And what is woven? Creation. It is creation that is worn by us, woven by Them.
Let's look at its components - tan + tra

· tan तन्- to extend , spread , be diffused (as light) over , shine , extend towards ; to extend or bend. The masculine application is uninterrupted succession.
· tra त्र- is protecting.
Hence tan + tra is that which is extended, protecting overall.
Yet too some can say that tan + tra is the spreading of higher knowledge (light, shine)

Tantra can also look to a root of trai - to protect , preserve , cherish , defend , rescue from hence to ~spread~ protection. Some also look to this tantra as tantratā - comprehending several rites in one ( ususally from the mīmāṁsā¹ point of view)
 
As aforementioned if this is a loom, then who are the weavers? Śiva and Śakti.
It is interesting to note a simple connection back to weaving:
· siva सिव or sivaka - means one one who sews or stitches , a sewer , stitcher. As siv सिव् means to sew, stitch, darn.
· This is not to be confused with śiva शिव rooted śī शी , " in whom all things lie " ; This śiva we know as The Auspicious One , the Supreme, the unsurpassable (anuttara).
From the one definition above (tan तन्) I happened to bump into what svāmī lakṣman-jū said on this term tantra.
He said tantra is tanu vistāre or expansion.


tanu – the body; it is also manifestation
vistāre - vis + tāre ; vis = to grow, to urge on + tāre¹ (tāra) = to carry across.

We can see the theme of expansion in the term ‘grow’ and ‘carry across’. Yet what of the ‘body’ or tanu? It can infer a few things: A ‘body’ of knowledge i.e. the tantra-s. It also can mean the ‘body’ of śiva.
What is His body? Some would say cidghanam or compact, densely filled, concentrated consciousness. And how is this tied in to tanu vistāre ? We are informed the following: cidghanamātmapūrṇaṁ viśvam¹ this consciousness (cid or cit) that is full (pūrṇaṁ), compact (ghanam) Being/Self (ātma) is all-pervading or all-containing , omnipresent (viśvam).

From this we can conclude, this ‘body’ (tanu) stretches (tan तन्- to extend , spread) everywhere...

इतिशिवं
iti śivaṁ

words


tāre is shown here in the locative (adhikaraṇa) case ending ( there’s 8 cases); as you would expect it indicates location. Using this form you are indicating ‘in’ or ‘on’ or ‘at’, etc.
cidghanamātmapūrṇaṁ viśvam - these are ācārya abhinavagupta-ji’s words. He is known as mahāmaheśvarācharya śrīmad abhinavaguptanatha by his pupil kṣemarāja.