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hinduism♥krishna
04 July 2014, 08:35 AM
Pranam,
Hari Narayana.

Title: Brahman is beyond Vaikuntha

Much has been said about Vaikuntha by me. There are many views about position of Vaikuntha. It is generally believed that Vaikuntha is outside of the material universe and eternal. But as I believe, this Vaikuntha is a sport of Maya of Vishnu. But Vaikuntha was created by him outside the seven covers or planes of Maya but within the field of Maya. There is a opinion of Agama that Vaikuntha is eternal and it never perishes. However Vedanta (Upanishada) says that at the time of total dissolution of the universe even Vaikuntha and Kailasa gets annihilated because they are ultimately forms only. At that time everything which has form gets merged in Brahman.


The state where form, Guna, Karma, Time, Dharma are all not existing is really a supreme Brahman which is mentioned by Vedanta. No doubt, Vaikuntha is considered as a moksha. Because who goes there never returns here in this material world. However when time of total dissolution comes, those all Atma enjoying divine bless gets merged in Brahman, gets established in their original nature. Getting established in one's own nature is what we call Moksha.


Now we'll see what actually is the meaning of Vaikuntha. KunthA means Gati- Gati of Jivas in various Yoni. [Gati: Course of Atma through different material bodies & Yoni: The material body in which soul appears] . Vikuntha means means stopping these KunthA of his devotees. Vishnu does this, who's the lord of MAYA. He removes their sins and all desires so that they can not move in various wombs. This Vaikuntha is a place where all souls are rested without the fear of anything. They don't take birth as there's no desire. Because desire only is the cause of various births. So Vaikuntha is a temporary place where devotees rest enjoying the bliss of Brahman until the total dissolution.


Now we'll look into Upanishada to know what they say. What's the postition of Vaikuntha?


From Nad-bindu upanishad -


Om ! May my speech be based on (i.e. accord with) the mind; May my mind be based on speech. O Self-effulgent One, reveal Thyself to me. May you both (speech and mind) be the carriers of the Veda to me. May not all that I have heard depart from me. I shall join together (i.e. obliterate the difference of) day And night through this study. I shall utter what is verbally true; I shall utter what is mentally true. May that (Brahman) protect me; May That protect the speaker (i.e. the teacher), may That protect me; May that protect the speaker – may That protect the speaker.
Om ! Let there be Peace in me ! Let there be Peace in my environment ! Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me !

1. The syllable ‘A’ is considered to be its (the bird Om’s) right wing, ‘Upanishad’, its left; ‘M’, its tail; and the Ardha-Matra (half-metre) is said to be its head.
2. The (Rajasic and Tamasic) qualities, its feet upwards (to the loins); Sattva, its (main) body; Dharma is considered to be its right eye, and Adharma, its left.
3. The Bhur-Loka is situated in its feet; the Bhuvar-Loka, in its knees; the Suvar-Loka, in its loins; and the Mahar-Loka, in its navel.
4. In its heart is situate the Janoloka; Tapoloka in its throat and the Satya-Loka in the centre of the forehead between the eyebrows.
5(a). Then the Matra (or Mantra) beyond the Sahasrara (thousand-rayed) is explained (viz.,) should be explained.
5(b)-6(a). An adept in Yoga who bestrides the Hamsa (bird) thus (viz., contemplates on Om) is not affected by Karmic influences or by tens of Crores of sins.
6(b)-7. The first Matra has Agni as its Devata (presiding deity); the second, Vayu as its Devata; the next Matra is resplendent like the sphere of the sun and the last, Ardha-Matra the wise know as belonging to Varuna (the presiding deity of water).
8. Each of these Matras has indeed three Kalas (parts). This is called Omkara. Know it by means of the Dharanas, viz., concentration on each of the twelve Kalas (or the variations of the Matras produced by the difference of Svaras or intonation).
9-11. The first Matra is called Ghoshini; the second, Vidyunmali (or Vidyunmatra); the third, Patangini; the fourth, Vayuvegini; the fifth, Namadheya; the sixth, Aindri; the seventh, Vaishnavi; the eighth, Sankari; the ninth, Mahati; the tenth, Dhriti (Dhruva); the eleventh, Nari (Mauni); and the twelfth, Brahmi.


12. If a person happens to die in the first Matra (while contemplating on it), he is born again as a great emperor in Bharatavarsha. ( India )

13. If in the second Matra, he becomes an illustrious Yaksha; if in the third Matra, a Vidyadhara; if in the fourth, a Gandharva (these three being the celestial hosts).

14. If he happens to die in the fifth, viz., Ardha-Matra, he lives in the world of the moon, with the rank of a Deva greatly glorified there.

15. If in the sixth, he merges, into Indra; if in the seventh, he reaches the seat of Vishnu (Vaikuntha); if in the eighth, Rudra, the Lord of all creatures.

16. If in the ninth, in Mahar-Loka; if in the tenth, in Janoloka (Dhruva-Loka -- ?); if in the eleventh, Tapoloka, and if in the twelfth, he attains the state of Brahma.

17. That which is beyond these(Lokas), (viz.,) Para-Brahman which is beyond (the above Matras), the pure, the all-pervading, beyond Kalas, the ever resplendent and the source of all Jyotis (light) should be known.

Note : From above verses, It is very clear that Para Brahman is described beyond all lokas including supreme lokas, vishnu loka and shiva loka. However here Vaikuntha is mentioned as lower than Brahmaloka.

Supreme Brahman is beyond Vaikuntha or Shiva Loka ! It is pure, infinite, source of all jyoti , without a second.

yajvan
04 July 2014, 10:48 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté





Now we'll see what actually is the meaning of Vaikuntha. KunthA means Gati- Gati of Jivas in various Yoni.


It would be helpful and useful to define your terms for the reader... this is has been a standing request ( for comprehension) that applies here on HDF.

gati may mean the following:

motion in general (feminine gender)
the course of the soul through numerous forms of life
a particular high number
state , condition , situation , proportion , mode of existence
a position of a child at birth

So, help us understand and appreciate your post(s) by offering the definitions as you apply them.

iti śivaṁ

hinduism♥krishna
04 July 2014, 12:05 PM
Gati means Motion, in this case, appeared motion of Atma from one body to the another body, which is experienced by Jiva due to Mind, Intellect and Prana, but the soul itself doesn't move. The moving is an illusionistic experience of omnipresent Atma.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté





It would be helpful and useful to define your terms for the reader... this is has been a standing request ( for comprehension) that applies here on HDF.

gati may mean the following:

motion in general (feminine gender)
the course of the soul through numerous forms of life
a particular high number
state , condition , situation , proportion , mode of existence
a position of a child at birth

So, help us understand and appreciate your post(s) by offering the definitions as you apply them.

iti śivaṁ

ganeshamylord
04 July 2014, 12:39 PM
Namaste
It is true that the ultimate liberation lies in merging with the formless Parama Shiva/Narayana and Vaikuntha and Kailasa both dissolve into the ultimate reality at the end.
The proof of that is the fall down of Jaya Vijaya from Vaikuntha after getting cursed by Sanaka and others
The fall down of Radha after She was cursed by sudama and fall down of tulasi after She was cursed by Radha(Brahma vaivarta purana) Fall down of Lakshmi after She was cursed by Sarasvati
The mere fact that curses,anger and ego still exist in Vaikuntha bear the testimony that it is not eternal. While this might hurt bhaktas and they give ridiculously convenient and childish answers that it is all Lords maya leela the truth goes the otherway round too and they forget that the names, forms dancing and singing are all Maya too and that the ultimate brahman with no qualities no emotions but pure happiness is the ultimate destination

ameyAtmA
04 July 2014, 06:21 PM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

Namaste

So what is your point? Where would you rather be until parlay? In mRtyulok, some arbitrary place, or in VaikunTha with Narayan? Devotees are saying they would rather be with ShyAmsundar in VaikunTha than some arbitrary place discussing Bramhan.

Also, after pralay (cosmic dissolution of all material worlds), and the following sarga/ sRshTi (creation), the devotees continue where they left off, i.e. they are back in VaikunTha with Narayan, whereas those in arbitrary places go to arbitrary places. DevaRshi NArad is proof of this. He gives witness to remembering his 7 lives before and after the major pralay. He currently plays the role of Lord BramhA's mind-born son and highest bhAgvat teaching bhAgvat dharma (principles of devotion to BhagavAn - the Supreme Lord), to 14 loka (material worlds).

Now if you are identifying with Bramhan, then you are that sUkshma tattva (subtle principle) and nothing matters. But for all practical purposes, although VaikunTha becomes irrelevant to you, it is not to others.

Also, if devotees are in VaikunTha until and after pralay, then that makes VaikunTha eternal for them.

he kRshNA karuNAsindho dIna bandho, jagat pate
gopesha gopikA-kAnta rAdhA kAnta namostute

tapta kAnchana gaurangi rAdhe vRndAvaneshwari
vRshabhAnu sute devi praNamAmi hari priye

vAncha kalpa taro bhyAs cha kRpA sindhubhya eva cha
patitAnAm pAvanebhyo vaishNavebhyo namo namah

kRshNAya vAsudevAya haraye paramAtmane
praNata klesha nAshAya govindAya namo namah

_/\_

----
disclaimer: I am not a Gaudiya VaishNav :) but my vaishNavebhyo namo namah was sincere from the heart.

ameyAtmA
04 July 2014, 09:40 PM
"VaikunTha means stopping the kunTha of His devotees. This VaikunTha is a place where all souls rest without fear of anything."

I think that is a very nice explanation of the state of VaikunTha. Thanks.

hinduism♥krishna
04 July 2014, 10:04 PM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

Namaste

So what is your point? Where would you rather be until parlay? In mRtyulok, some arbitrary place, or in VaikunTha with Narayan? Devotees are saying they would rather be with ShyAmsundar in VaikunTha than some arbitrary place discussing Bramhan.

Namaste, AmeyAtma.

Actually the main title here is that Brahman which is described by Shruti-Smruti is beyond Vaikuntha. As long as there's Maya, there's lord of Maya, Vaikuntha. Because he's present in form only when there's Maya but when there's total dissolution takes place or Moksha is attained, there's no Ishwara as there's no Maya at all. Because this Brahman appears in form through Maya. Bhagavan himself has said this in Bhagavad Gita. Ishwara can be existed only when there's a counterpart Maya, otherwise never.

Yes, we'd like to live in Vaikuntha rather than discussing here what's Brahman :) Note that actually Vaikuntha Moksha and Kaivalya-Sayujya Moksha are same in regard with the goal. In Vaikuntha, Sayujyata is attained with Gunas and While others attain this Brahman without Guna. They become completely one with it.


Also, after pralay (cosmic dissolution of all material worlds), and the following sarga/ sRshTi (creation), the devotees continue where they left off, i.e. they are back in VaikunTha with Narayan, whereas those in arbitrary places go to arbitrary places. DevaRshi NArad is proof of this. He gives witness to remembering his 7 lives before and after the major pralay. He currently plays the role of Lord BramhA's mind-born son and highest bhAgvat teaching bhAgvat dharma (principles of devotion to BhagavAn - the Supreme Lord), to 14 loka (material worlds).

Interestingly Narada is not a resident of Vaikuntha. If desire is vanished completely, it's not possible to return. Even the same lord Brahma during the time of creation returns. Because duality of I and Brahman is still there. Bhagavata mentions this. Who has no such duality, he's already connected with Brahman even though he's still in material body. But after the death and after the dissolution in case of devotees, they never come back. They aren't born after creation. Because their Jivabhava is completely vanished and desire is null. This desire itself creates material and subtle bodies.


Now if you are identifying with Bramhan, then you are that sUkshma tattva (subtle principle) and nothing matters. But for all practical purposes, although VaikunTha becomes irrelevant to you, it is not to others.

How it'll be irrelevant to me, if moksha is attained through it. However who's known his self as Vishnu, for him what's Vaikuntha or what's not vaikuntha doesn't matter. He's vishnu himself. Who's attained sayujyata has already attained Vaikuntha. He's all pervading. He's in vaikuntha. He's in Dhruva loka. He's all.

I'd like to attain supreme abode of Vishnu, which is none other than the self. <See my Signature> , not a Vaikuntha. I want to know my self completely, which is Vishnu. I don't have a desire to become vishnu like god in Vaikuntha. I don't want vishnu's body. I want to get his soul. Because his soul and my soul, no such distinction. Here in this Martya Loka, Bhagavan himself accepts Maya and considers himself different from the self. He himself enters into prakriti as a Jiva and gets deluded. He himself is the Jiva. He himself is guna. He himself is maya. There's nothing separate existing than him. Who prorects and what is protected is he alone.

devotee
04 July 2014, 10:39 PM
Namaste HLK,

Your posts are full of wisdom of VedAnta. However, I think that it doesn't make Vaikuntha less important, at least for those who want it. As pointed out by Ameyatama, they want to be in that bhaava (state of mind) and that is supreme for them.

I agree that the Ultimate reality is beyond all lokas as there is no MAyA and therefore, no loka, no Ishvara and none other in TuriyA, the blissful eternal non-dual state of Brahman.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
05 July 2014, 02:52 AM
Pranams,

I hope you can become more than Vishnu Hindu Krishna, Good luck with that.

But how can we accept a translation of any shastra by someone who comes up with things like this


Namaste,

Many iskconites consider bhagavan govinda as supreme than bramh . They have stated bramh as partial blissful in their gita's interpretation. However, i think, chaitanya mahaprabhu did not teach these kind of things.
He only gave 8 shlokas which are considered authentic . However, The chaitanya charitamrita is not considered as a genuine scripture as it was written by some latter devotees.

Besides, chaitanya was an advaitian vaishnawa. His guru was an advaitian and i don't think iskcon has a root in chaitanya mahaprabhu's teachings.

Thank you. Best luck for your spiritual progress.
:)
Jai shri govind narayan.

I must admit it, I never thought that personal interpretation to fit in ones view was actual vedic.

I have learned something new

Pranams

ameyAtmA
05 July 2014, 03:00 PM
However who's known his self as Vishnu, for him what's Vaikuntha or what's not vaikuntha doesn't matter. He's vishnu himself. Who's attained sayujyata has already attained Vaikuntha. He's all pervading. He's in vaikuntha. He's in Dhruva loka. He's all.
Well said, HLK.


Interestingly Narada is not a resident of Vaikuntha.
Not physically, but he is a bhAgvat, not BhagvAn, that's my point. Spiritually he lives with BhagvAn, perpetually. When I say VaikunTha I am not speaking of a spatial location.


If desire is vanished completely, it's not possible to return.
True. However, the bhAgvats like DevaRshi (NArad) do have one pure desire - to serve the Will of BhagvAn. Somebody has to be NArad :) Otherwise Shri Hari will miss him.

What will happen to/of DevaRshi after the mahA-pralay? It all depends on the will, sankalpa, of BhagavAn. Not of DevaRshi. Which means DevaRshi is just a puppet, and Bramhan-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn is the only driver of the show.

Narayana NArAyaNa ~

hinduism♥krishna
06 July 2014, 01:24 AM
Not physically, but he is a bhAgvat, not BhagvAn, that's my point.

PranAm Atma who's Ameya :)

Narada and Vishnu are one. Because after realisation jivabhava gets vanished, devotee becomes Brahman. Moreover in Bhagavata Purana, Narada is mentioned as third incarnation of Vishnu. So in any way there's no any difference. Narada is Vishnu. Vishnu is Narada.

There seems an interpolation in Bhagavata Purana. Actually Narada was cursed by Prajapati Daksha like this “Therefore you too in future will be roaming about without permanent abode….moreover, you will have rebirth as my son. ” Whereas Bhagavata Purana says that after acquiring body by the command of god he roams in three worlds by singing names of Bhagavan. " So this seems a clear interpolation done by some dvaitians

Narada merged in Brahman is accepted and this itself proves that residents of vaikuntha merges in Brahman. If Narada like highest bhagavata could merge, then why not residents of Vaikuntha? Now does someone who's merged can appear again at the time of creation? But Vedanata and smruti too never supports this. Who's merged in Brahman can never return because merging happens only when there's no any desire and if there's no desire there there would not be a birth at the time of creation in any condition.



True. However, the bhAgvats like DevaRshi (NArad) do have one pure desire - to serve the Will of BhagvAn. Somebody has to be NArad :) Otherwise Shri Hari will miss him.
Narada himself is parabrahman. For vaishnawas like us, Bhagavan, Bhakti and devotee are Bhagavan himself. No any difference between them.


In Bhagavata Purana, Narada himself mentions himself as parabrahman and says that this maya is imagined on him. Look at this verse.

Narada says :
तस्मिन तदा लब्धरुचि: महामते प्रियश्रवसि अस्खलित मतिर्मम
ययाह्मेतत सत्सत्स्वमयया पश्ये मयि ब्रह्मणि कल्पितं परे ( BP 1.5.27)

तदा - at that time , तस्मिन- that , प्रियश्रवसि- in krishna katha , लब्धरुचि: - liking of that acts , मतिर्मम- my mind , अस्खलित - nondual ,without hindrance , अहं- I यया - because of - एतत - this सदसत - sat and asat स्वमयया - by my maya परे ब्रह्मणि - in parabramhan मयि- in me , कल्पितं- as imagined पश्ये - saw

" At that time my non-dual mind got interested in bhagavan kathas because of that I saw that sat - asat ( maya ) is imagined in me who is parabramhan , by my own maya .

This verse is one of the proofs, proving Narada is one with Brahman and as he's one with Brahman, Birth at the time of creation is just impossible.


What will happen to/of DevaRshi after the mahA-pralay? It all depends on the will, sankalpa, of BhagavAn. Not of DevaRshi. Which means DevaRshi is just a puppet, and Bramhan-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn is the only driver of the show. Bhagavan does a will, is just figurative. Appearance is never reality. He's complete in himself. He's paramatma and paramatma has no any distinction or desire. That's why his enemies too attained him. Brahman acquires a form through his maya and he does everything by his own maya. Whatever done by maya is never real though Vishnu's sports are divine. At the time of creation Pramatma itself appears in dual form of Ishwara and Jiva. So who protects and whatever is protected is he alone.

ameyAtmA
06 July 2014, 04:43 PM
:) Namaste

I am Brahman. See my signature. ameyAtmA. It is one of my sahasra (thousand) names. On the same note, every Golok-vAsi (resident) and VaikunTha-vAsi is none other than Brahman.

Q: Then what are "they" doing in VaikunTha?
A: LeelA. BhagvAn expanding into many for leela.

Q: If Shri KRshNa is Brahman, what is He doing in Golok VRndAvan, Bhulok VRndAvan or in devotee's hearts?
A: LeelA

Q: ameyAtmA, what are you doing here? stop trolling.
A: Its a Leela. Don't call Brahman a troll :)

Moral of the story: VaikunTha is Leela for as long as you want it to be, and can be termed as an eternal Leela-abode of Shri Hari.

hinduism♥krishna
07 July 2014, 05:47 AM
:) Namaste

I am Brahman. See my signature. ameyAtmA. It is one of my sahasra (thousand) names. On the same note, every Golok-vAsi (resident) and VaikunTha-vAsi is none other than Brahman.

Q: Then what are "they" doing in VaikunTha?
A: LeelA. BhagvAn expanding into many for leela.

Q: If Shri KRshNa is Brahman, what is He doing in Golok VRndAvan, Bhulok VRndAvan or in devotee's hearts?
A: LeelA

Q: ameyAtmA, what are you doing here? stop trolling.
A: Its a Leela. Don't call Brahman a troll :)

Moral of the story: VaikunTha is Leela for as long as you want it to be, and can be termed as an eternal Leela-abode of Shri Hari.

Pranam,

Jeeva is 513th nama of Vishnu. Vishnu himself is situated as a Jiva in the form of Kshetradnya which is limited to kshetra (Body). Vishnu has divided himself in countless jivas, covering himself by Maya. It's his sport or Leela. In the Jiva form he appears as deluded. But this itself is delusion :)

Leela means something which is superimposed by something. "aham Brahsmi" is the intermediate state between Brahman and Jiva. At first Brahman imagined and thought I'm Brahman and then looking at the prakruti-Maya he accepted her and thought let me become many. It divided itself in two - Ishwara and Jiva by it's sport, by his leela. Acting as a Ishwara and at the same time as jiva, is its sport only.

Devotees who think themselves indifferent from Vishnu, attain a state which is beyond Vailuntha, supreme abode of vishnu which is desired by Yogi. Just look at the moksha of Parikshita which is one of the main characters of BP. BP mentions his Moksha in just one word and its 'Brahmabhuta' means who's become Brahman. Such moksha is very very rare even than Vaikuntha. Topmost vaishanwas attains such supreme abode of Vishnu. Because Brahman alone is the true nature of all and getting established in one's own self nature is the supreme Moksha.

ganeshamylord
07 July 2014, 10:47 AM
:) Namaste

I am Brahman. See my signature. ameyAtmA. It is one of my sahasra (thousand) names. On the same note, every Golok-vAsi (resident) and VaikunTha-vAsi is none other than Brahman.

Q: Then what are "they" doing in VaikunTha?
A: LeelA. BhagvAn expanding into many for leela.

Q: If Shri KRshNa is Brahman, what is He doing in Golok VRndAvan, Bhulok VRndAvan or in devotee's hearts?
A: LeelA

Q: ameyAtmA, what are you doing here? stop trolling.
A: Its a Leela. Don't call Brahman a troll :)

Moral of the story: VaikunTha is Leela for as long as you want it to be, and can be termed as an eternal Leela-abode of Shri Hari.


LEELA is a very convenient and simplistic answer given by people who dont know the actual truth. That way there is no way they can go wrong right?:Cool:And vaikuntha not being eternal is exemplified by the example of jaya vijaya lakshmi etc getting cursed and falling down from there:)

billmarley25
30 August 2015, 05:39 AM
Vaikuntha is in reality eternal and in fact never gets dissolved, same with Kailasa as they are both outside of the material universe. At the time of dissolution both are completely uninfluenced.

Atman
02 March 2016, 10:29 AM
There are countless Vaikuntha's though- this is where it can be confusing- Vaikuntha's within the Causal Ocean that gets destroyed after trillions and trillions of Kalpas, like Buddha Amithaba- which is the highest paradise of the West, and Vishnu's realm within the material realm, then the eternal realm that is not in the Vaikuntha realm but above material coverings- like eternal Sadashiva-loka, then the Supreme Maha Vishnu with Lakshmi who are eternal- then Druvaloka which is a spiritual planet within the material realm- and the supreme Krsna-loka/Goloka above countless millions of eternal Vaikuntha realms, this is also true to different grades of happiness- as I got confirmed, Krsna and Radha's bliss is soooooooo unlimited and quality is so great that even countless Shivaloka's in the spiritual realm, countless realms of Amitbha Buddha and countless Shesa's with unlimited ecstasy would still be equal to naraka compared with only a drop of Mahabhava, then imagine how terrible this would be when it increases to oceans and oceans- would feel like living in the lowest realm of Yamaraja in comparison!!

Red_Drag0n
03 April 2022, 04:11 AM
Vaikuntha is in reality eternal and in fact never gets dissolved, same with Kailasa as they are both outside of the material universe. At the time of dissolution both are completely uninfluenced.

The abode itself maybe permanent but its inhabitants' stay there may not be permanent. This is something that even the gaudiya vaishnavas admit.

I agree with users like 'hinduismkrishna' and 'ganeshamylord'. The gaudiya vaishnavas (iskconites) themselves admit in their texts and speeches, that there's falling down from Goloka or Vaikuntha, to the material worlds, the moment envy or selfish desires arise in the hearts of so called muktaas while staying in Vishnu's abode.

This shows that even after attaining Goloka or Vaikuntha, the so called muktaas are not free of ego, envy, selfish desires and so on.

The reason for the presence of these negative traits in the jivas, while they're being situated in vishnu's abode, is probably due to the presence of ego or individuality, which the vaishnavas hold onto very dearly. For vaishnavas individuality is very important. Beause of this individuality, there remains the sense of "i-ness" ... "you-ness" ... and from this arises envy, anger, selfish desires etc.

On the other hand, in advaita moksha, there is the complete cessation of ego/individuality. When the advaita mukta realizes that everyone and everything is his own Self, that diversity is just an illusion and only oneness exists, then whom will the jivan-mukta hate or become envious of?

When the jivan mukta (in advaita) drops his body after death he becomes one with infinite Brahman. And i doubt there's any coming back. :=) But i'm still looking for a upanishadic verse or Shankara's verse that says there's no coming back for a videha mukta. If anyone is aware of such verse, then kindly do share it here. Thank you.