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ameyAtmA
16 July 2014, 09:37 PM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

kastUri tilakam lalATa paTale
vaksha sthhale kaustibham
nAsagre nava mauktikam karatale
veNum kare kankaNam
sarvAnge hari-chandanam sulalitam
kanThe cha muktAvalI
Gopa-stree pariveshThito vijayate
GopALa chUDAmaNI ||

Tilak-mark on the forehead (lalATa) made of musk (kastUrI) & saffron
Kaustubha gem on His chest
A beautiful pearl pierced as the nose ornament
Flute in the palms, bangles on wrists,
Hari-chandan (fragrant yellow sandalwood paste) all over The Beautiful One
A flower garland around the neck
[perpetually] surrounded by the cowherd maidens and ladies
May that gem (chUDAmaNI) of GopAl KRshNa always be glorified as the epitome of success.


yatraiva ganga Yamuna tirveNi
Godavari sindhu saraswatI cha
sarvAni tIrthAni vasanti tatre,
yatrAchutodAra kathA prasangah: ||

Wherever the story of Achyuta (unmovable infallible Lord KRshNa) is being told, all the sacred rivers Ganga Yamunaa Godavari Sindhu Saraswati, and all tIrthas (holy auspicious places of pilgrimage) reside

--------------

Namaste,

What do you have to say about these bhAgvat verses below (SB 11.25.24 to 27) spoken by BhagvAn Shri KrshNa ? He is very explicit in saying 'manniketanam' --- living in the forest is in goodness (sAttvic)) but living in My Temple, or My place of dwelling - manniketanam - is transcendental .

This can be take as => My dwelling place is the heart of devotees - so one who lives there / the 'act' of living there is transcendental - nirguN.

The stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires. Seva for the sake of seva, and nothing else.


SB 11.25.24
kaivalyaṁ sāttvikaṁ jānaṁ
 rajo vaikalpikaṁ ca yat
prākṛtaṁ tāmasaṁ jānaṁ
 man-niṣṭhaṁ nirguṇaṁ smṛtam


Absolute knowledge is in the mode of goodness, knowledge based on duality is in the mode of passion, and materialistic knowledge is in the mode of ignorance. Knowledge based upon Me, however, is understood to be transcendental.


----
SB 11.25.25
vanaṁ tu sāttviko vāso
 grāmo rājasa ucyate
tāmasaṁ dyūta-sadanaṁ
 man-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam

Residence in the forest is in the mode of goodness, residence in a town is in the mode of passion, residence in a gambling house displays the quality of ignorance, and residence in a place where I reside is transcendental.


SB 11.25.26
sāttvikaḥ kārako saṅgī
 rāgāndho rājasaḥ smṛtaḥ
tāmasaḥ smṛti-vibhraṣṭo
 nirguṇo mad-apāśrayaḥ

A worker free of attachment is in the mode of goodness, a worker blinded by personal desire is in the mode of passion, and a worker who has completely forgotten how to tell right from wrong is in the mode of ignorance. But a worker who has taken shelter of Me is understood to be transcendental to the modes of nature.

11.25.27
sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
 karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
 mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā

Faith directed toward spiritual life is in the mode of goodness, faith rooted in fruitive work is in the mode of passion, faith residing in irreligious activities is in the mode of ignorance, but faith in My devotional service is purely transcendental.


VAsudev, ParaBrahman ParamAtmA, is hitting the nail here.

|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

ganeshamylord
16 July 2014, 10:00 PM
hello and Namaste,

Haha. By meditating on Him Krishna doesnt say Kasturi tilakam and all? That you got it from gopalasahasranama whose authenticity is anyway debatable.
To make things clear Krishna by "meditate on me" means meditate on the nirakar akasha the brahman. check the following. No where does the two armed form come ever,. Either it is of Narayana or finally the eternal akasha

SB 11.14.31 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/31) — Śrī Uddhava said: My dear lotus-eyed Kṛṣṇa, by what process should one who desires liberation meditate upon You, of what specific nature should his meditation be, and upon which form should he meditate? Kindly explain to me this topic of meditation.
SB 11.14.32-33 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/32-33) — The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Sitting on a level seat that is not too high or too low, keeping the body straight and erect yet comfortable, placing the two hands on one’s lap and focusing the eyes on the tip of one’s nose, one should purify the pathways of breathing by practicing the mechanical exercises of pūraka, kumbhaka and recaka, and then one should reverse the procedure (recaka, kumbhaka, pūraka). Having fully controlled the senses, one may thus practice prāṇāyāma step by step.
SB 11.14.34 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/34) — Beginning from the mūlādhāra-cakra, one should move the life air continuously upward like the fibers in the lotus stalk until one reaches the heart, where the sacred syllable om is situated like the sound of a bell. One should thus continue raising the sacred syllable upward the distance of twelve aṅgulas, and there the oṁkāra should be joined together with the fifteen vibrations produced with anusvāra.
SB 11.14.35 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/35) — Being fixed in the oṁkāra, one should carefully practice the prāṇāyāma system ten times at each sunrise, noon and sunset. Thus, after one month one will have conquered the life air.
SB 11.14.36-42 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/36-42) — Keeping the eyes half closed and fixed on the tip of one’s nose, being enlivened and alert, one should meditate on the lotus flower situated within the heart. This lotus has eight petals and is situated on an erect lotus stalk. One should meditate on the sun, moon and fire, placing them one after the other within the whorl of that lotus flower. Placing My transcendental form within the fire, one should meditate upon it as the auspicious goal of all meditation. That form is perfectly proportioned, gentle and cheerful. It possesses four beautiful long arms, a charming, beautiful neck, a handsome forehead, a pure smile and glowing, shark-shaped earrings suspended from two identical ears. That spiritual form is the color of a dark rain cloud and is garbed in golden-yellowish silk. The chest of that form is the abode of Śrīvatsa and the goddess of fortune, and that form is also decorated with a conchshell, disc, club, lotus flower and garland of forest flowers. The two brilliant lotus feet are decorated with ankle bells and bracelets, and that form exhibits the Kaustubha gem along with an effulgent crown. The upper hips are beautified by a golden belt, and the arms are decorated with valuable bracelets. All of the limbs of that beautiful form capture the heart, and the face is beautified by merciful glancing. Pulling the senses back from the sense objects, one should be grave and self-controlled and should use the intelligence to strongly fix the mind upon all of the limbs of My transcendental body. Thus one should meditate upon that most delicate transcendental form of Mine.
SB 11.14.43 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/43) — One should then pull the consciousness back from all the limbs of that transcendental body. At that time, one should meditate only on the wonderfully smiling face of the Lord.
SB 11.14.44 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/14/44) — Being established in meditation on the Lord’s face, one should then withdraw the consciousness and fix it in the sky. Then giving up such meditation, one should become established in Me and give up the process of meditation altogether.
So after meditating on His face He asks the devotee to finally meditate on the sky, No matter what strung of devotion one is he has to finally merge in the brahman and personal forms are there just for our convenience because of our limited senses but even this Krishna has to merge in the brahman ultimately. so He Himself rates the sky over His face.

ganeshamylord
16 July 2014, 10:05 PM
hello and Namaste,

SB 11.29.12 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/29/12) — With a pure heart one should see Me, the Supreme Soul within all beings and also within oneself, to be both unblemished by anything material and also present everywhere, both externally and internally, just like the omnipresent sky.
SB 11.29.13-14 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/29/13-14) — O brilliant Uddhava, one who thus views all living entities with the idea that I am present within each of them, and who by taking shelter of this divine knowledge offers due respect to everyone, is considered actually wise. Such a man sees equally the brāhmaṇa and the outcaste, the thief and the charitable promoter of brahminical culture, the sun and the tiny sparks of fire, the gentle and the cruel.
SB 11.29.15 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/29/15) — For him who constantly meditates upon My presence within all persons, the bad tendencies of rivalry, envy and abusiveness, along with false ego, are very quickly destroyed.
SB 11.29.16 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/29/16) — Disregarding the ridicule of one’s companions, one should give up the bodily conception and its accompanying embarrassment. One should offer obeisances before all — even the dogs, outcastes, cows and asses — falling flat upon the ground like a rod.
SB 11.29.17 (http://vedabase.com/en/sb/11/29/17) — Until one has fully developed the ability to see Me within all living beings, one must continue to worship Me by this process with the activities of his speech, mind and body.

So He means by the last quote that until one has understood Him as the nirakar Brahman he has to worship Him in a personal fashion because by His own words bhakti is done with speech mind and bodily limitations.

ameyAtmA
16 July 2014, 10:08 PM
Namaste


Haha. By meditating on Him Krishna doesnt say Kasturi tilakam and all? That you got it from gopalasahasranama whose authenticity is anyway debatable.

What ? There is no need to jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth -- you sound like you are holding a sword in hand ready to pounce.

I simply started the discussion with my favourite kasturi tilakam and yatraiva ganga Yamuna triveni - you recite these versus before BhAgvat pArAyaN. I always like to start a discussion on BhAgvat with such verses. They are not put there for debate.

I have nothing to either prove or disprove to you, and I never said anything about formful or formlessness on this thread.

I also do not belong to any party here -- Congress or BJP, Republicans or Democrats, Form or Formless, NirguN or SaguN, dvaita or advaita etc. etc.

I just think it is most beautiful what KRshNa is saying to Uddhav here.

ganeshamylord
16 July 2014, 10:13 PM
hello and Namaste,


|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

--------------

Namaste,

What do you have to say about these bhAgvat verses below (SB 11.25.24 to 27) spoken by BhagvAn Shri KrshNa ? He is very explicit in saying 'manniketanam' --- living in the forest is in goodness (sAttvic)) but living in My Temple, or My place of dwelling - manniketanam - is transcendental .

This can be take as => My dwelling place is the heart of devotees - so one who lives there / the 'act' of living there is transcendental - nirguN.

The stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires. Seva for the sake of seva, and nothing else.


|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

Hahaha So contemplating on Brahman is sattvic? Where in the verses was this lie written? Can you elaborate why you misinterpreted the verses and how?You conveniently presumed due to your limited fanatical ignorance that sattvic worship is brahman worship. And neither by "my temple" does He mean His limited form which was burnt in the pyre by Arjuna after His death.
Where did He say living in the forest is knowing Brahman?
And one who "lives" with Him as a sevak is not nirguna FYI. That is shown when Jaya Vijaya prone to the typical ego get cursed by Sanaka and others. And the fact curses,ego exist in vaikuntha contradicts your point. And the fact that Vrinda got cursed by Radha and Radha got cursed by sudama and sudama got cursed by Radha ,,, and many more curses:)

ameyAtmA
16 July 2014, 10:21 PM
Hahaha So contemplating on Brahman is sattvic? Where in the verses was this lie written? Can you elaborate why you misinterpreted the verses and how?You conveniently presumed due to your limited fanatical ignorance that sattvic worship is brahman worship. And neither by "my temple" does He mean His limited form which was burnt in the pyre by Arjuna after His death.
Where did He say living in the forest is knowing Brahman?
And one who "lives" with Him as a sevak is not nirguna FYI. That is shown when Jaya Vijaya prone to the typical ego get cursed by Sanaka and others. And the fact curses,ego exist in vaikuntha contradicts your point. And the fact that Vrinda got cursed by Radha and Radha got cursed by sudama and sudama got cursed by Radha ,,, and many more curses:)

Again you are putting words in my mouth thanks to your hatred of ISKCON groups. When did I say living in the forest = contemplating on Brahman? Krishna says in another verse SB 11.25.24 -- please read : kaivalyam = sattvicam , mannishTham = nirguNam. MannishTham = Having nishThA in Me, VAsudev, ParamAtmA ParaBrahman, is direct. Contemplation is a stage prior to that.

In fact I was the one who said manniketanam can be taken as My dwelling i.e. hRday, heart!

Put your sword down.
Clear your mind of that hatred.
Stop making assumptions about this writer or pen if you will'
Stop jumping to conclusions based on some biased or prejudiced opinions about HDF writers
Thank You :)

ameyAtmA
16 July 2014, 10:29 PM
And one who "lives" with Him as a sevak is not nirguna FYI. That is shown when Jaya Vijaya prone to the typical ego get cursed by Sanaka and others. And the fact curses,ego exist in vaikuntha contradicts your point. And the fact that Vrinda got cursed by Radha and Radha got cursed by sudama and sudama got cursed by Radha ,,, and many more curses:)

11.25.27
sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
 karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
 mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā

mat-sevAyAm can mean My seva, => jiv sevA , since I reside in all hearts :)

ganeshamylord
16 July 2014, 10:32 PM
Again you are putting words in my mouth thanks to your fanatical hatred of ISKCON groups. When did I say living in the forest = contemplating on Brahman? Krishna says in another verse SB 11.25.25 -- please read : kaivalyam = sattvicam , mannishTham = nirguNam. MannishTham = Having nishThA in Me, VAsudev, ParamAtmA ParaBrahman, is direct. Contemplation is a stage prior to that.

In fact I was the one who said manniketanam can be taken as My dwelling i.e. hRday, heart!

Thank You :)

the stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires.

ganeshamylord
16 July 2014, 10:35 PM
11.25.27
sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
 karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
 mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā

mat-sevAyAm can mean My seva, => jiv sevA , since I reside in all hearts :)

Exactly to the one who understands Him as the formless dweller in all hearts there are no more curses. But to the ones who think of Him with limited form as their personal master or lover or friends etc the fate of Jaya Vijaya Daksha Chitraketu awaits them

ameyAtmA
16 July 2014, 10:35 PM
the stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires.

Yes, so? This is about verse 24 not 25.

Again, kaivalyam = sAttvicam jn~Anam; mannishTham = nirguNam smRtam

Verse 27: sAtviki adhyAtmic shradhhA ; mat-sevAyA tu nirguNA

Saying : I am that Brahman, that AtmA is sAttviki shraddhA. Not having any such contemplatory thoughts [anymore], but just naturally getting drawn to My sevA [without thoughts, forgetting oneself] is nirguN (transcendental).
What is sevA? What is bhakti? Bhakti is love and compassion in the heart, and seeing that VAsudev in all hearts.

ganeshamylord
16 July 2014, 10:38 PM
11.25.27
sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
 karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
 mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā

mat-sevAyAm can mean My seva, => jiv sevA , since I reside in all hearts :)


Haha and where does Krishna by "my seva" mean rituals and form worship? Seva to the Lord has varied meanings. Seva is never personal. Seva to Him also means brahman understanding. And Krishna Himself clears it up as to what His "form" is if you read furthur and if you read the quotes that i sent

hinduism♥krishna
17 July 2014, 01:13 AM
PranAm Ameyatma & Ganesha..



The stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental

Such interpretation is not based on Uddhava Gita. One can interpret this in any way as he likes if he doesn't know what's Nirguna Knowledge.
Contemplating on Nirguna Brahman is always Nirguna & on Saguna Brahman with form is always Sattvik. Similarly Devotion to Krishna in oneness is Nirguna [See explaination below] while in duality thinking the self different from god is Rajasik.

SB 11.25.24
"Absolute knowledge is in the mode of goodness, knowledge based on duality is in the mode of passion, and materialistic knowledge is in the mode of ignorance. Knowledge based upon Me, however, is understood to be transcendental."
"The knowledge according to Sattwa Guna is about unity [or detachment from senses] ; Rajasik knowledge is full of duality, knowledge of earthly objects is Tamasik by nature, while knowledge about Me is the higher type of knowledge beyond the Gunas."
==> What is Sattvik knowledge? When man knows that though he lives in the body, he is different from the body and that Bhagavan is living in all the Beings, that knowledge is of the Sattwa quality.
To know that in all the separate things of separate shapes, separate categories, separate names and separate functions, there is only one Brahman, is the knowledge of Sattwik quality.

==> What is Rajasik Knowledge? The knowledge consisting duality between self and Brahman is under the Rajasik Knowledge.

==> What is Tamasik Knowledge? When knowledge is limited to the hunger, fear, sleep and sexual act, just like the animals, that knowledge is only Tamas.

==>> Now know the Nirguna Knowledge, which is not comprehended by anyone and can't be spoken through speech or write in words. That Nirguna Knowledge is Brahman itself.

The devotee who holds this knowledge doesn't have even feeling that Bhagavan is residing everywhere and even he doesn't think that "I'm Brahman'. In such knowledge, he himself has become Brahman, where there is no duality and even non-duality.

When knowledge discards the three factors of worldly way of knowledge i.e. the doer, the doing and the work done, and when it nullifies the Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas also, and remains only as Brahman, it is abstract knowledge, called “Nirguna” knowledge. In that knowledge Brahman alone is there. There's no devotee or duality of devotee and God. Such state of knowledge is not describable. How can one describe it when he's gone too beyond this as he neither thinks I'm Brahman nor God is residing everywhere in unity.

By acquiring such knowledge, the man rejects even the knowledge which is the result of the extreme urge of Sattwa quality because he is sure that he himself is beginningless, the eternal nature of knowledge himself.

Darkness prevails only where the sun is not present and it has no place in the clear sunshine. Similarly when he is sure about his Reality, i.e. Brahman, the knowledge caused by delusion never cause any disturbance to him.

In Uddhava Gita, Bhagavan Krushna instructs us to know him first and worship him through Bhakti. Without knowledge Bhakti is somewhat incomplete though through such bhakti[without knowledge] can attain Brahman. Bhagavan accepts that Dnyani alone is dearest to him. In Bhagavad Gita too, Krishna says " Dnyani is my Atma itself "
"Only those whose mind is purified through knowledge and self-realization are able to know my Supreme Glory as all-pervading. Dnyani understands me and holds me in his heart and therefore he is the dearest devotee for me"


"O Uddhava, thus you should worship me, enriched with this self-knowledge and material knowledge with devotion." (5)


Now who deserves Dnyana, Bhakti and Karma yoga, Bhagavan is explaining... The journey of Karma is towards Bhakti, journey of Bhakti is towards knowledge and journey of knowledge is towards Brahman. As Upanishada say without knowledge there's no Moksha, the aim of Bhakti is Knowledge alone.
"For those who have become disinterested in worldly activities and have relinquished their duties I have taught Dnyanayoga, and for those who have desires for objects in their minds, I have taught Karmayoga."


"There are persons who have by chance an interest in listening to stories related to me, they have faith newly arisen in their heart,[B] they are not disinterested totally nor totally attached as regards worldly life. When there is such a person, the path of devotion or Bhaktiyoga is useful for his highest aim of unity with Me." (8)


In Uddhava Gita, Krushna many times instructs us to go beyond his form and to establish in his Nirguna nature.
"The mind which is thus established in the joy of Narayana form should be then shifted to the abstract SPACE and even by leaving the space as the object of mediation, the seeker should not think of any thing! (BP 11.14. 44) [Here Lord Krishna instructs to go beyond his Narayana form and then should not think of anything including vishnu's form]

"With his intellect thus established, he sees me in himself and [B]himself actually merged in me (Brahman) like an individual light in the element of fire." (BP 11.14.45)

Thus, the awareness of separate I and you disappear and only the cosmic joy of Brahman remains everywhere.

Just as the brilliance of two flames become one when they are put together so the Jeeva and the energy become one in non-duality.

There may be millions of little lamps lighted, and we see millions of flames but, the light in all the lamps is one only. Similarly the Jeeva is of the nature of knowledge, or “chit” in the state of non-duality.

With the association of body and organs the Jeeva is wrongly conceived as a separate entity but when understanding of non-duality arises the Jeeva merges into cosmic Atman.

Then there is only divine happiness and there is nobody to make this statement. Only joy of Atman remains as joy.What is that state? It is like sugar eating sugar, or water bathing in water or ghee entering into ghee to enjoy the fragrance. :)

@Ganeshamylord See real transaltions I've quoted above - 11.14.44 & 11.14.45,which, I think, you'd put somewhat wrongly.

DhanyoSi, Hari Narayana :)