PDA

View Full Version : Saguna Brahman



ale84
21 July 2014, 06:03 PM
Hello, I would like you to explain me the concept of Saguna Brahman.
Is Saguna Brahman a samsaric being?
Is the concept of Saguna Brahman different from the concept of Ishvara?

Thanks.

saswathy
21 July 2014, 09:25 PM
Dear friend ,
Saguna brahman is a concept created by human mind .When a student is asked to study a subject for the sake of knowledge ,he would not show much interest .But if he has to get a degree or certificate to get a god job , he puts all his effort in getting good result . The same way when a person encounters problems , whether of familial , financial , professional or of health and when he is pushed to the wall he turns towards the unknown natural force whom we call God. All gods are beings only with supernatural powers . Some of them are beings gone to higher planes through their sheer merit like Shirdie saibaba . What actually gives result is the faith of devotee . Even if a stone is worshipped with all trust , faith and love , the result is given . But God , the Absolute Brahman is the supreme power. It is energy from the rational point and love and compassion from the emotional point .When a sadhaka starts he takes recourse in a sagunabrahma and later a stage comes where the personal deity himself or her self takes the devotee to that path.

ganeshamylord
22 July 2014, 01:03 AM
Namaste
I personally feel that the form is given due to the limitations of the mind.
Lets think from the scientific view point. why do you think texts focussing on Saguna Brahman fail to give the correct structure of the universe.
So the basic question arises if the texts dont know the correct structure of the universe how would they know the correct structure of God?
Also why do most texts focus just on eyes chest legs of God? What about His internal organs like brain heart etc?Do the texts intend that Gods hands or eyes are more important than Gods Brain? The answer is simple. Texts focus on external organs because that is what the writers of those texts could comprehend as they had no clue about the chambers of heart or the gyri or sulci. Also I read the embryology given in srimad bhagavatam and it is not correct and doesnt coincide with the reality.
So i think its easier for people to write books on things they cant see or prove because they might get a lot of followers who dont question their credibility in a vague hope of finding the truth. No wonder you see people fighting over forms of Vishnu or Shiva that dont exist and get over emotional which i think is not spiritual or for that matter not even real.
God doesnt have a form and that is the truth.

Kalicharan Tuvij
22 July 2014, 01:23 AM
Namaste,


Dear friend ,
Saguna brahman is a concept created by human mind .When a student is asked to study a subject for the sake of knowledge ,he would not show much interest .But if he has to get a degree or certificate to get a god job , he puts all his effort in getting good result . The same way when a person encounters problems , whether of familial , financial , professional or of health and when he is pushed to the wall he turns towards the unknown natural force whom we call God. All gods are beings only with supernatural powers . Some of them are beings gone to higher planes through their sheer merit like Shirdie saibaba . What actually gives result is the faith of devotee . Even if a stone is worshipped with all trust , faith and love , the result is given . But God , the Absolute Brahman is the supreme power. It is energy from the rational point and love and compassion from the emotional point .When a sadhaka starts he takes recourse in a sagunabrahma and later a stage comes where the personal deity himself or her self takes the devotee to that path.
I disagree with everything spoken above.
Next,

Namaste
I personally feel that the form is given due to the limitations of the mind.
Not true. You are discounting the truthful, masterful, forms produced by great artists, the greatest still among which is mother Nature herself.

Lets think from the scientific view point. why do you think texts focussing on Saguna Brahman fail to give the correct structure of the universe.
You are again looking in a wrong direction. There is no such thing as Sagun Brahman (nor Maya, etc). The closest word (correct one) to it is BrahmA.

I invite all Advaitins (BrahmANa-s) to do bhakti of Lord BrahmA and discover the strucuture of material and other universes (if there) for yourselves (and spare rest of us the trouble).

KT

1. brahmA: The deity whose core aspect is brahm (brahman).
2. After sandhi of "Absolute Brahman", what we get is, "Abraham". Good luck.
3. brahmANa: mystic, rahasyavid (courtesy, MV)

Kalicharan Tuvij
22 July 2014, 01:30 AM
Hello, I would like you to explain me the concept of Saguna Brahman.
Is Saguna Brahman a samsaric being?
Is the concept of Saguna Brahman different from the concept of Ishvara?

Thanks.

Saguna Brahman is a crude word for BrahmA. BrahmA is the deity whose core aspect is brahm (brahman).

Also, there is no such thing as MAYA. Everything is included within Lord BrahmA, and is real. Upon steadfast mystic bhakti of Lord BrahmA we are bestowed with the integral knowledge, para and apara.

Lord BrahmA has four mAnas putra-s, each being an extremely powerful deity, and the brahmANa-s (mystics) who are into this path are deep into their worships.

The other important deities of this sect are:
Indra, Saraswati, Vayu, Brahm. (not exhaustive)

namaste,

saswathy
22 July 2014, 09:26 AM
Dear friend ,
most of our so called Gods like Indra are posts. Any soul with anathapunyam but with transitory yearnings would do all the rituals to occupy that post . That's why all our puranas are replete with stories , where they all are not devoid of the weaknesses like kama , krodha , moha, mada matsarya etc . It is not to decry their greatness in any way , but to point out their inherent weakness for power . Take the example of Nahusha , who became Indra by dint of merit . Like all point out , all the beings are Brahman . In such a case the question of worshipping some form or name or shape does not arise .All can worship all .Of course that's what ultimately takes place . BUT here the question pertains to ordinary mortals like me .

Kalicharan Tuvij
22 July 2014, 09:51 AM
As I said, the problem is not here or there, it is everywhere, every word, letter.


Dear friend ,
most of our so called Gods like Indra are posts.
If I believed such a thing, I'd have left Hinduism a long time ago.


Any soul with anathapunyam but with transitory yearnings would do all the rituals to occupy that post .
Rituals are worthless by themselves. No amount of mere rituals can achieve anything. On the other hand, there is a whole science of language and Yagya which if correctly understood (that you have not made any effort to) can force your mighty Brahman to come running to the sādhaka.


That's why all our puranas are replete with stories , where they all are not devoid of the weaknesses like kama , krodha , moha, mada matsarya etc .
Even a toddler can do an intellectual analysis of PurANa-s.


It is not to decry their greatness in any way , but to point out their inherent weakness for power .
A Dasyu may see Indra as an arrogant and power hungry mythical entity, but Indra sees the Dasyu for what they really are, that is, Dasyu.


Take the example of Nahusha , who became Indra by dint of merit .
Neither Nahusa nor Indra were, at any point of time, real humans.

Like all point out , all the beings are Brahman .
Who said that? Or are you still following political correctness of a bygone era?

In such a case the question of worshipping some form or name or shape does not arise .
Open your eyes. Because last time I checked, Hindus were still an idol worshipper people. Or you want to disrespect Hindus? Under some vineer of sophisticated (which everyone understands, btw) wordery?


All can worship all .
Allah Akbar Anthony? Add: Sai Baba?


Of course that's what ultimately takes place . BUT here the question pertains to ordinary mortals like me .
There is no elitism in Hindu Dharma, for your kind information.

If you have still something worthwhile to say, pray continue.

Pranam,
KT

ganeshamylord
22 July 2014, 09:54 AM
Kalicharan Tuvij Namaste,


Not true. You are discounting the truthful, masterful, forms produced by great artists, the greatest still among which is mother Nature herself.
___________________________________________________________
So have you experienced that "truth" If not, are you telling me that i should believe the notions of the artists without experiencing them and tag the term "truth" to it just because im emotionally attached to them ? .So the form that you describe is obviously of two arms or fours arms or eights arms? what about the number of coils in the intestine? What about the heart chambers? Number of kidneys?why do forms focus on external parts and not internal? im not saying this out of ego but please give me a good answer
So why do things like human embryology,shape of universe which were all different in different scriptures also be termed as "truth" when in reality they are all false? Dont your "great truthful masters" know the truth behind them?

You are again looking in a wrong direction. There is no such thing as Sagun Brahman (nor Maya, etc). The closest word (correct one) to it is BrahmA.
_________________________________________________
If people know the shape of God why dont they know the shape of earth?



I invite all Advaitins (BrahmANa-s) to do bhakti of Lord BrahmA and discover the strucuture of material and other universes (if there) for yourselves (and spare rest of us the trouble).
_________________________________________________________
Bhakti OF FORMS and names is emotional.And if people can get emotionally attached to sai baba, asaram bapu am sure they will obviously have no problem in getting attached to an imaginary form of shiva or vishnu ;ll How different is it from a muslim worshipping allah or a christian worshipping christ? Now who is correct? If we worship even a stone i am sure we will get attached to it does that make the stone a God?
And on who does the onus of proof lie? Us or you? A man who talks he invented a car, has to provide a test drive himself. He obviously wont ask the common man to go create his own car. I have already seen a lot of bhaktas of Brahma like sanaka etc who obviously gave a wrong description of the universe and also suka of bhagavata who gave a wrong description of earth and also of kaliyuga and also of human embryology. So tell me one point why i should accept it as truth? But by experience if you mean emotional indoctrination all abrahamic devils call themselves the followers of truth too. How different are we from them

Kalicharan Tuvij
22 July 2014, 10:24 AM
So have you experienced that "truth" If not, are you telling me that i should believe the notions of the artists without experiencing them and tag the term "truth" to it just because im emotionally attached to them ?
Have I experienced? Yes, being an artist myself, I have.

So the form that you describe is obviously of two arms or fours arms or eights arms?
Not necessarily. Each deity can be described by virtually an illimitable number of forms, and still in the end judged by the peers to be truthful. Forms and murthis in Hinduism, it must be said, "have just started to unravel". Veda itself uses a language that is full of the imagery (not fixed).

what about the number of coils in the intestine? What about the heart chambers? Number of kidneys?why do forms focus on external parts and not internal? im not saying this out of ego but please give me a good answer
In art the movement is from the concrete (corporal/ corporeal) to the abstract, and from the abstract to again concrete (divine). So yes, technically, we can build up from intestines.

So why do things like human embryology,shape of universe which were all different in different scriptures also be termed as "truth" when in reality they are all false? Dont your "great truthful masters" know the truth behind them?
1. Human embryology : kindly refer to ancient texts/ knowledge of Hindu medical practitioners, for the kind of information that you seek.
2. Shape of universe: round?

If people know the shape of God why dont they know the shape of earth?
Round? Again?


Bhakti OF FORMS and names is emotional.
Emotion and faith are different things, as you very well know. Our Dharma says that ultimately a perfected Faith can be used to derive all truth, and vice-versa. Dharma also equally extols another principle: rasa, art, etc.


And if people can get emotionally attached to sai baba, asaram bapu am sure they will obviously have no problem in getting attached to an imaginary form of shiva or vishnu ;
No, as I said earlier, the truthful movement is from concrete to abstract (and then again concrete). That is why Shiva and Vishnu (and their images) are truthful. Also note that even though both of them can be depicted in an illimitable number of ways, still, both are different from each other.


How different is it from a muslim worshipping allah or a christian worshipping christ? Now who is correct?
Surely, if "your" version of Advaita is correct, then it is better to make a move towards purer forms of religions such as Islam which has only one deity, that too formless, just like "your" Brahman.


If we worship even a stone i am sure we will get attached to it does that make the stone a God?
Seriously? Do I need to even reply this?

ale84
22 July 2014, 04:19 PM
Hello all.
What is the concept of Ishvara in advaita vedanta?
Are there other samsaric beings in higher realms of existence?
Can they help us if we are devoted to them?

Thanks.

saswathy
22 July 2014, 08:38 PM
Dear friends ,
Emotion and trust are not two different things . They are interdependent . Most of our puranas are need based . Here the need is dharma . whenever a need arises to put everything in place , to punish the wrong doer , an avathara has come . Whether it is Mahishasura mardini or Rama or krishna , or other innumerable avatharas are the outcome of the same purpose or need . It is not my imaginary STORY . It is given specifically in our puranas and other scriptures .There is nothing wrong in opting for a particular form or name .,since it amounts to the worship of almighty only . A child is taught -'A for apple ' , but much later he knows that A is not only for apple but there are many things.If a truth is emphasised ,it should not be taken as a tirade against Hinduism .To start with everyone goes for a personal deity , depending upon his guna , karma need .
.





same

ganeshamylord
22 July 2014, 08:55 PM
Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij ji


1. Human embryology : kindly refer to ancient texts/ knowledge of Hindu medical practitioners, for the kind of information that you seek.
2. Shape of universe: round?
________________________________________
I did read bhagavata and being a doctor i know what has been said is not true
Earth is said to be flat,moon is said to farther away from the sun,moon is called a self illuminating star etc? How do you counter these



Seriously? Do I need to even reply this?
_____________________________________________
Yes because a lot of villagers worship stones and trees and get attached to them. So are you saying its "our" rasa and devotion that defines and shapes God? So since you said Vishnu or Shiva are worshipped in many ways that in itself negates their individuality

yajvan
22 July 2014, 08:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Hello all.
What is the concept of Ishvara in advaita vedanta?
Are there other samsaric beings in higher realms of existence?
Can they help us if we are devoted to them?

Thanks.
It is best to stay focused on the initial posts subject... it would make most sense to open a new post if you wish to change subject matter.

iti śivaṁ

yajvan
22 July 2014, 09:35 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Dear friends ,
Emotion and trust are not two different things . They are interdependent . Most of our puranas are need based . Here the need is dharma . whenever a need arises to put everything in place , to punish the wrong doer , an avathara has come . Whether it is Mahishasura mardini or Rama or krishna , or other innumerable avatharas are the outcome of the same purpose or need . It is not my imaginary STORY . It is given specifically in our puranas and other scriptures .There is nothing wrong in opting for a particular form or name .,since it amounts to the worship of almighty only . A child is taught -'A for apple ' , but much later he knows that A is not only for apple but there are many things.If a truth is emphasised ,it should not be taken as a tirade against Hinduism .To start with everyone goes for a personal deity , depending upon his guna , karma need .
same

emotion and trust
I for one am slightly perplexed... maybe you can expand my vision and offer some additional framework to help me.
I do not see how emotion and trust can be looked at as not being different. Emotions can be all over the board - fear, happiness, contentment, grief, etc. yet trust on the level emotion may be experienced as security, comfort. But to align one to the other, IMHO there is substantial poetic liberty at hand. Please help me with the apparent blind spot I am experiencing.

when ever a need arises ...
Whose need ? Can you expand on this just a bit more.


to punish ?
I see this slightly differently. I take my support from the 4th chapter of the bhāgavad gītā. We are told kṛṣṇa-jī comes time and again to protect the righteous and destroy the wicked, establishing dharma ( firmly) once again ( bhāgavad gītā 4.8) Protection 1st, destruction of negative forces, and re-establishing dharma. Punishment is not within the purview of this śloka. There are many reasons for this , but then I digress.


iti śivaṁ

renuka
22 July 2014, 10:18 PM
The answer is simple. Texts focus on external organs because that is what the writers of those texts could comprehend as they had no clue about the chambers of heart or the gyri or sulci. Also I read the embryology given in srimad bhagavatam and it is not correct and doesnt coincide with the reality.
So i think its easier for people to write books on things they cant see or prove because they might get a lot of followers who dont question their credibility in a vague hope of finding the truth. No wonder you see people fighting over forms of Vishnu or Shiva that dont exist and get over emotional which i think is not spiritual or for that matter not even real.
God doesnt have a form and that is the truth.




Namaste Ji,

Agreed..I used to wonder why Bhagavatha Purana says that the embryo is bitten by worms over and over again when Amniotic fluid is practically sterile and even Meconium does not have worms!

May be there were talking about being bitten by the worms of woes of life..could be symbolic.

Even an early commentator of Srimad Bhagavatha Sridhara Swami quoted a verse from Pindasiddhi with reference to Fraternal(Non Indentical) twins only taking into the consideration the need of 2 spermatozoa and no mention that 2 ova are also needed.So that means Pindasiddhi is only partly right.

So this proves that whatever written at any particular time was solely based on the expertise and understanding at that time and could be disproved at a later time when new findings contradict the older findings.


For example it used to be a belief in Abrahamic religions that the soul enters the fetus during the 4-5th month of pregnancy and the fetus starts to kick and move hence the movement of a fetus is called quickening in medical terminology with reference to the Quick and the Dead of the Bible.

But when one does Ultrasound of a fetus..one can see movements of an embryo which is just 8 weeks old.

A mother does not feel this movement yet because the uterus is still small in size and does not touch the abdominal wall.

At 4-5 months the uterus touches the abdominal wall and a mother starts to feel the movements better and all this lead to the thought that the soul only enters at 4-5 months and that makes the fetus move and kick...so with Ultrasound this has been disproved

So one needs to keep an open mind and allow thought to evolve with new discovery and new findings...otherwise we are only going to stunt our mental capacity and become bigots.

Just to add..I agree with you that there is no use fighting over forms of Lord Vishnu or Lord Shiva because whatever image we have in our mind is an artistic impression of mainly Raja Ravi Varma.

Kalicharan Tuvij
23 July 2014, 07:12 AM
I did read bhagavata and being a doctor i know what has been said is not true
That is why I requested you to refer ancient Hindu texts on medical practice, for the kind of information you seek. Bhagavata, or any Puranic text for that matter, utilizes in some way (simplified, mainly) the Vedic terminology which is accurate but allegorical.

Earth is said to be flat,moon is said to farther away from the sun,moon is called a self illuminating star etc? How do you counter these
This is a very basic fact of Hinduism that "prithvi" actually means more than "planet earth".
Prithvi means the triple realm (of which the material universe is 1/3rd only), where we have dwellings of material beings (i.e., us), gandharva-s, kinnars, and yaksha-s.
I, for one, dont see a dichotomy between spiritual and material knowledge. So, going with the above argument, the material universe and science is to be seen as a subset of greater knowledge of the whole prithvi loka.
There are still other three: Om, Svah, Bhuva(n).
If one wants to find material knowledge in Veda (or to a much simplified level in Purana-s), one has to learn (and respect) the whole language first.

Yes because a lot of villagers worship stones and trees and get attached to them.
So? I also get seriously attached; perhaps not the right person to ask? Even on national level, many stupid, superstitious Hindus still get fatally attached to Ram-lalla's at Ayodhya, instead of seeing through some reason and allowing a hospital there. What to do? Beter make a move away from this superstitious, Brahmanical, oppressive cult?

So are you saying its "our" rasa and devotion that defines and shapes God?
No, I am saying is that it is the deva-s that define the rasa and shapes.

So since you said Vishnu or Shiva are worshipped in many ways that in itself negates their individuality
Have you ever seen a diamond through its different facets, like, by rotating it?

It is not by ordinary senses that we grasp reality (material reality included). What is that by which we can grasp truth? What is that axis of Meru like?

saswathy
23 July 2014, 05:28 PM
Dear Yashwanji ,
Where emotion is absent trust would not exist . Emotions are of various hues as you rightly pointed out .But a barren field does not give any harvest .Then the next thing about need . What I mean by need is the need for peace , happiness , the general well being of the universe . When ever disruption in this takes place , whenever harmony and balance get disturbed , the supreme power comes for the rescue of the world to destroy the evil forces and restore the harmony .In fact I do believe that there are billions of universes with
innumerable planetary set up ,and Ramayanas and mahabharathas and other puranic stories could be happening simultaneously at any given time in different spheres . All the puranas are stories of life which give out the morals ., dos and don'ts in a story form . They are like history from which we can correct our mistakes.

renuka
23 July 2014, 11:11 PM
I do believe that there are billions of universes with
innumerable planetary set up ,and Ramayanas and mahabharathas and other puranic stories could be happening simultaneously at any given time in different spheres ..

Namaste Ji,

I totally like this idea..in fact if I were a movie director I would direct a movie based on this idea..the idea of the parallel universes and Ramayan or Mahabharat happening at the same time and accidentally a portal is created and both universes meet and all characters are confused to see identical characters and and they end up fighting with each other..the War of The Clones!

Would make a good movie...a twist to Ramayan or Mahabharat.

devotee
24 July 2014, 05:12 AM
Namaste ale,



Is Saguna Brahman a samsaric being?

No.

Is the concept of Saguna Brahman different from the concept of Ishvara?


Saguna Brahman is Ishvara.

OM

Kalicharan Tuvij
24 July 2014, 09:36 AM
Namaste,

In art the movement is from the concrete (corporal/ corporeal) to the abstract, and from the abstract to again concrete (divine).
As a quick example to study, I quote this beautiful piece of writing from ShivaFan (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism-dir/127539-who-siva-shiva-3.html),


What is Shiva?

It is like the boy of 16 years old, today his Father has gone to his Grandfather far away in another village to urgently help with provsioning fire wood for the Granfather's home before a terrible winter storm is soon to arrive. The Father tells the boy, stay and watch his sister for the Mother is busy cooking and storing bread and oatmeal before the storm arrives.

As soon as the Father is out of site around the track, the boy goes out to watch a falcon that arrived in the nearby treeline.

The falcon flys away when the boy approaches. But he sees wiggling grubs on the moss ridden side of the lower bark of one of the trees. He watches fascinated.

Farther off, when he looks up, there is of all things a badger! He knows a badger is nothing to play with and can even be dangerous, but a badger is hardly ever seen in the day because they come at night. Right away he scurries farther out to chase down the badger.

The badger knows the deep and dark corners and crevices and paths deeper into the forest. The boys runs here and then there.

The badger is lost. He looks about. He has never seen those old sycamores before.

In fact he hasn't seen those mistletoe bunches hanging from those maples either. He takes a look closer.

He picks a stem of mistletoe to bring back to his sister.

But wait.

Which way is back?

Now stay calm. Of course, this is the way.

About 15 minutes down the way, he realizes it isn't the way. Clouds are gathering now.

What the?

It's this way. No.

Has another hour passed?

It isn't exactly fear that describes the foreboding. Yes, but it is like, "I have let down my Father".

Another hour. Clouds are heavy now. Well, the mind says, you really did it this time. What will it be like. The chest feels tight, this isn't just fear. What to think? What to do?

Now the trees are pines. That means he knows he is way, way off the home turf now. The bears are here too. My God. Twilight doesn't seem far off now.

That's when a loud crack sound of wood comes from his back right, the boy turns startled.

There about 30 yards. A man. A strong man in tiger skin. His face is broad. His eyes like that falcon which first took the boy into the forest. The arms of this man are strong.

Then comes His deep voice.

"ShivaFan! Get here!".

The feeling is beyond words.

That is His Father. It is Shiva.

ale84
24 July 2014, 02:17 PM
Hello, Devotee


Saguna Brahman is Ishvara.

Thanks for the clarification.

Kalicharan Tuvij
26 July 2014, 06:24 AM
hariḥ oṁ

brahmā - Observe that in the following derivatives - noun: brahma is used for nirguṇa brahman (Absolute, pure, without attributes); brahmā for saguṇa brahmā, ( with attributes) ie. the Lord . Yet in truth nirguṇa and saguṇa is total, full niṣkala ( partless).
This short commentary (from 2009) pretty much covers everything on the present topic, IMO.

On the question of Ishvar, I feel He is the interface between brahma and brahmā, also the sole ruler of the world. Ishvar can also be seen as the "barest form of Lord Brahmā the Father".

I think "saguna brahma" shouldn't be used because it neglects the whole spectrum of Lord Brahmā "worship".

On the question of Ishvara though I admit lack of I depth study. But I suppose the word otherwise is often a reserve for a form of Lord Shiva, not that Vishnu or Brahmā cannot take on the term as an epithet.

KT