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ale84
23 July 2014, 03:14 PM
Hello, I'm opening a new thread from a previous post, as Yajvan suggested.


What is the concept of Ishvara in advaita vedanta?
Are there other samsaric beings in higher realms of existence?
Can they help us if we are devoted to them?

Thanks.

devotee
23 July 2014, 10:54 PM
Namaste Ale,


What is the concept of Ishvara in advaita vedanta?
Are there other samsaric beings in higher realms of existence?
Can they help us if we are devoted to them?

I hope you are not mixing Ishvara with "other samsaric beings in higher realms". Ishvara is Only one and he is the Lord of all beings ... from which everything comes and into which all dissolve.

MAndukya Upanishad tells us that Ishvara is the third state (paad) of Self/Brahman. Ishvara has been described with these attributes :

a) Ishvara is the Lord of all (beings) in both the worlds i.e. in the Waking state (Vishva) and the Dreaming state (Taijasa). That means he is the Controller of MAyA which creates the two mAyic states and is Omnipotent. He is also the Omniscient (who knows all of the past, present and future). He is the creator of the two states (Vishva and Taijasa) and all beings are created from him and dissolve into him.

Ishvara comes into being (if use of that term is acceptable, as MAyA and Ishvara are beginningless) when MAyA is present and it is none but Nirguna Brahman with MAyA in action. Though MAyA is the cause for Ishvara, Ishvara is not influenced by MAyA. He is not deluded like other beings under MAyA. In fact, He is the controller of MAyA.

Ishvara is PrjnAnghana i.e. Mass of pure Consciousness. He is full of bliss and is enjoyer of bliss. Ishvara is non-dual i.e. there is nothing in this world which can be perceived different from Ishvara i.e. Ishvara is not a separate being/entity.

b) There are many realms outside this world. These realms are not anywhere in sky away from us. These realms are very much around all of us. These realms are in different dimensions and therefore we need special powers to see those realms and see the beings there. Some of these realms are higher realms where the people with good karmas go to fulfill their desires.

There is no point in worshiping such beings in higher realms ... though they have greater powers but it is not good to indulge into such activities. As you will be acting for your desires and that being would be helping you for fufilling his desires. So, it will finally lead to fall of both of you. However, if that being is your Guru or a Devataa they can help you in growing spiritually. Devataas are worshiped usually for fulfulling worldly desires and therefore their worship has not been considered of higher status. Yes, Gurus in higher realms can be very helpful if you are truly devoted to him/her.

There are beings in lower realms who have strong unfulfilled desires and are always looking for vehicle to fulfill their desires. If by any reason you fall in their trap, then they can use you/your body and mind for fulfilling their carnal desires. Therefore, it is advisable not to try to contact any such beings in other realms. If you ask me, I won't advise you to worship/try to contact anyone in higher realms except your Guru and other great Gurus.

Explanation of some Terms used above :

Third state of Self = It is has been called PrAjna. For "State" term used by me, the Sanskrit used is "paad" in the Upanishad and therefore, it can also be translated as "part". However, as Self/Brahman is without part, using state is considered better. There are four states of Self/Brahman. One is Waking i.e. our gross world also called "Vishva" this also is a state of delusion and one doesn't see the reality and takes reality for something else) . 2nd state is Taijasa which has been described as "dreaming state" i.e. when a being in that world doesn't see reality and perceives reality as some imagined thing ... it is a state of delusion.

MAyA

Power of Brahman which is capable of veiling the reality and projecting some imagined thing where actually reality alone is. MAyA means "That which is not".

Devataa

Celestial beings which perform their assigned tasks to run the whole show of this and the subtle worlds (non-gross other realms). They have super-natural powers.

OM

ganeshamylord
24 July 2014, 02:25 PM
Hello, I'm opening a new thread from a previous post, as Yajvan suggested.

Namaste
There is already a beautiful explanation given by Devoteeji above
However you should also read about Ishwara from the Ishopanishad. It is the book on the same Ishwara. He belongs to the highest realm and not higher realm. Ofcourse He is there to help you out as He is the greatest benefactor of all the souls. We come from Him and go to Him.He has no form or a name but is merciful enough to accept your impressions of Him and He is the highest destination,the highest path and the highest way out.
He knows what you want what you need and will obviously help you reach the highest destination. Even the higher beings who you might take help from are His parts and it is He who maintains and directs the entire cosmos when He Himself is unaffected by it.
He is neither your friend nor your enemy but He is you as He is any other soul. And just like the water drop loses its identity once it merges in the ocean we lose our material identity and become Him once we reach Him

ale84
24 July 2014, 03:55 PM
Hello, devotee


That means he is the Controller of MAyA which creates the two mAyic states and is Omnipotent. He is also the Omniscient (who knows all of the past, present and future). He is the creator of the two states (Vishva and Taijasa) and all beings are created from him and dissolve into him.

Then Ishvara is like the primeval mind which is "dreaming" all of this samsara, and He controls the karma of all beings.


Ishvara comes into being (if use of that term is acceptable, as MAyA and Ishvara are beginningless) when MAyA is present and it is none but Nirguna Brahman with MAyA in action. Though MAyA is the cause for Ishvara, Ishvara is not influenced by MAyA. He is not deluded like other beings under MAyA. In fact, He is the controller of MAyA.

This picture makes a lot of sense. When I was christian I found really hard to believe that there is an Uncaused, Eternal, Personal, all loving Being.
I think Abrahamic and other devotional religions fail, as they don't see the Absolute Nirguna Brahman as the Higher Truth behind Ishvara.



There are many realms outside this world. These realms are not anywhere in sky away from us. These realms are very much around all of us. These realms are in different dimensions and therefore we need special powers to see those realms and see the beings there. Some of these realms are higher realms where the people with good karmas go to fulfill their desires.

There is no point in worshiping such beings in higher realms ... though they have greater powers but it is not good to indulge into such activities. As you will be acting for your desires and that being would be helping you for fufilling his desires. So, it will finally lead to fall of both of you. However, if that being is your Guru or a Devataa they can help you in growing spiritually. Devataas are worshiped usually for fulfulling worldly desires and therefore their worship has not been considered of higher status. Yes, Gurus in higher realms can be very helpful if you are truly devoted to him/her.

I find all of this really interesting. I'm not interested in fulfilling worldly desires, in fact I really despise this body and consider it to be the cause of all of my troubles (I've been suffering from irritable bowel syndrome for the last 4 years) and I'm not affraid of losing my life. I'm rather affraid of losing the dharma.
I'm starting my spiritual journey in the path of Jnana Yoga, I want to study Samkhya Philosophy, the main Upanishads and Brahma Sutras and that's why I want the help and protection of higher beings.
If I'm to be reborn in this world or in higher realms, Then I want to die skillfully and be reborn consciously, but I still need time to learn the scriptures and practice meditation and this life is really uncertain and anithing can happen at any moment.
So I would appreciate any suggestion about Guru/Devataa, and mantras or rituals I should perform in honor to them.



There are beings in lower realms who have strong unfulfilled desires and are always looking for vehicle to fulfill their desires. If by any reason you fall in their trap, then they can use you/your body and mind for fulfilling their carnal desires. Therefore, it is advisable not to try to contact any such beings in other realms.

This brings to my mind the Vegetarian Phuket Festival in Thailand and other shamanic ceremonies around the world.
In fact, watching images of the Phuket Festival brought me a lot of faith in the existence of supernatural beings in other realms. Altough these are not the cleanest ways of spirituality, it's interesting to be aware of it... but not to get involved.



If you ask me, I won't advise you to worship/try to contact anyone in higher realms except your Guru and other great Gurus

This is what I really want to do.

ale84
24 July 2014, 04:10 PM
Hi, ganeshamylord


Namaste
There is already a beautiful explanation given by Devoteeji above
However you should also read about Ishwara from the Ishopanishad. It is the book on the same Ishwara. He belongs to the highest realm and not higher realm. Ofcourse He is there to help you out as He is the greatest benefactor of all the souls. We come from Him and go to Him.He has no form or a name but is merciful enough to accept your impressions of Him and He is the highest destination,the highest path and the highest way out.
He knows what you want what you need and will obviously help you reach the highest destination. Even the higher beings who you might take help from are His parts and it is He who maintains and directs the entire cosmos when He Himself is unaffected by it.
He is neither your friend nor your enemy but He is you as He is any other soul. And just like the water drop loses its identity once it merges in the ocean we lose our material identity and become Him once we reach Him

Thanks for your explanation. I'm not sure if I'm already fit for reaching the grace of the Highest, Ishvara. I don't know, maybe I should start with devotion to Guru/Devataa (as suggested by devotee) as I progress in my spiritual path to Ishvara.
Anyway I would thank any suggestion about rituals or mantras I should perform in devotion to Ishvara.

silence_speaks
02 August 2014, 12:02 PM
Dear Ale84,
:) Sri Ramakrishna used to say that one should pray to Lord like a child. Cry and request him for help... Surrendering totally. God provides help.

Have devotion to a single God. Don't jump from one God to Another. Have a single God and a single mantra and regularly repeat.

This is if you have a desire you want to fulfill with God's grace.

But the problem with samsara [worldly objects], is , its like a dilapidated house ... you patch it at one place and it starts to give away from another end. So if a person tries to keep the samsara from falling off, that is impossible... we pray now from one thing ... something else seems to drift ! So we move to that again! This process of praying and waiting for results continues endlessly.

So somewhere ... if one wants to live a life of contentment ... one has to give up everything into the hands of God. Then alone can one discover rest. Because, then one says "You take care of all this as you choose to"... and God takes care in some way... the house may fall and you may end up sitting under a tree, but happy or someone may take you to another house !


so ... here is something very subtle: yes God's Grace helps ... but as long as we seek worldly objects from God ... its like a thristy person seeking to see a glass of water in a mirror. God might show the glass of water in the mirror but it wont quench the thirst! If you want true quenching of thirst ... give up running after the worldly objects and rest in the embrace of God. That embrace is free , you dont even have to pray.

Love!
Silence