Bhakti in Advaita

[ale84]

Hello, I'm doing japa to Lord Ganesha.
I'm chanting the mantra "Om Gam Ganapataye Namaha" 108 times.
My question is: how should I view Lord Ganesha? What is Ganesha from the advaitic point of view?
Should I consider him as Nirguna Brahman? Or as Ishvara/cosmic mind? Or as an aspect of Ishvara?
Does he control the law of karma?
If He can remove material and spiritual obstacles, then He must have some attributes.
Or should I view him as a symbol to focus my mind on the Absolute?

Thanks.

[Sahasranama]

There is no such thing as the advaitic point of view.

[Ram11]

Hello, I'm doing japa to Lord Ganesha.
I'm chanting the mantra "Om Gam Ganapataye Namaha" 108 times.
My question is: how should I view Lord Ganesha? What is Ganesha from the advaitic point of view?
Should I consider him as Nirguna Brahman? Or as Ishvara/cosmic mind? Or as an aspect of Ishvara?
Does he control the law of karma?
If He can remove material and spiritual obstacles, then He must have some attributes.
Or should I view him as a symbol to focus my mind on the Absolute?

Thanks.

Namaste Ji,

Sri Ganesha is Saguna Brahman i.e. Brahman with attributes.
Yes,symbols are meant to help an individual understand,relate to and grasp something that is otherwise difficult to comprehend.I hope members will elaborate.

[devotee]

namaste ale,



My question is: how should I view Lord Ganesha?

In whatever form and with whatever attributes you like to worship Him.


What is Ganesha from the advaitic point of view?

It all depends upon you how you look at Him. God's any name and form is acceptable and they are all indicating towards Ishvara. If you think that He is Ishvara, Ishvara will act in this form to help you.


Should I consider him as Nirguna Brahman? Or as Ishvara/cosmic mind? Or as an aspect of Ishvara?

Nirguna Brahman, as the name indicates has no attributes. If you want to call Nirguna Brahman "Ganesha", there is no issue. However, Nirguna Brahman cannot be brought within mental concepts. Imho, better to accept Him as Saguna Brahman (as you can get any help only from Saguna Brahman) which is nothing but Nirguna Brahman associated with Vikshepa power of MAyA and with all the attributes of Ishvara.


Does he control the law of karma?

No one controls laws of Karma. These are as these are.


If He can remove material and spiritual obstacles, then He must have some attributes.

Sure. He can act as only a devataa who removes obstacles, if you consider Him so and also as Ishvara with power of omnipotence and omniscience, if you consider Him as Ishvara.


Or should I view him as a symbol to focus my mind on the Absolute?


Lord Ganesha is nothing but symbol of Ishvara if you consider him Ishvara. The Absolute cannot be brought within the framework of mental concepts.

OM

[silence_speaks]

Dear ale84,

:) To understand Bhakti in Advaita Context, I would like to quote from Ganapathi Adharvasirsha upanishad. Since you are a devotee of Ganesha (Or Ganapathi), this upanishad may be of special interest to you. You can get a chant online and for understanding the meaning:
http://www.dkprintworld.com/product-detail.php?pid=1280856932
this book is apt. There is also a book by swami tejomayananda ji on the same subject.

So coming to what is Advaita Bhakti, this is how Ganapathi upanishad starts:

OM Namaste ganapataye: My prostration unto the Lord Ganapathi (Ganesha).
Tvameva Pratyaksham tatvamasi: You Alone Are the reality manifest before us (AS universe)
Tvameva kevalam kartasi : You are the only Creator.
Tvameva kevalam dhartasi : You alone are the sustainer.
Tvameva kevalam hartasi: You alone are the annihilator.
Tvameva sarvam khalvidam brahmasi : You are the Brahman that is all this.
Tvam sakshad atmasi nityam: You are ever the Self , Atma (My Self).

This is Advaita Attitude of prayer.
Please feel free to comment if you need more explanation for any of this.

Love!
Silence

[silence_speaks]

Usually a Bhakta is asked to surrender to a God.
In Advaita, Bhakta recognizes that nothing is his own.
namaha means na-mama, nothing is mine !
So this body is not mine.
This mind is not mine.
there being nothing mine ... where is the me, that is only in relation to a possession ?

There is no ME.
Hence there is Lord Alone !!

To put it another way... God is everywhere ... all around us ... to our left, right, up, above ... in and out of us ! So where is the place for me ?? There is only Lord ... if at all i am there, i am in the embrace of the Lord ... 24 7 ... so infact i dissolve in lord ...

another style of putting it : Krishna is said to have shown the entire universe in his mouth ... so where are we ? Long before we even asked for it, we are already swallowed by the Lord !


So we cannot even arrogate that there is something that is ours which we would like to surrender to God! Infact there is nothing ours ... there is no me at all ... i am already swallowed by the Lord ! Lord Alone Remains !

IF this is well understood one revels in his embrace 24 7 as there is none else !!

[Amrut]

Hello, I'm doing japa to Lord Ganesha.
I'm chanting the mantra "Om Gam Ganapataye Namaha" 108 times.
My question is: how should I view Lord Ganesha? What is Ganesha from the advaitic point of view?
Should I consider him as Nirguna Brahman? Or as Ishvara/cosmic mind? Or as an aspect of Ishvara?
Does he control the law of karma?
If He can remove material and spiritual obstacles, then He must have some attributes.
Or should I view him as a symbol to focus my mind on the Absolute?

Thanks.

Namaste,

In simple words. Think of Ganesha (with form) as an all powerful Godhead, who is capable of granting moksha. Ganesha can surely bestow you moksha.

You can simply ask Ganesha to give you moksha. Pray to him to give what is best for you.

Ganesha has both aspects, saguna (Gapesha) and nirguna (Ganesha-tatva), it same as Siva-tatva, Vishnu-tatva (corrections welcome). Ganesha like Siva and Vishnu can grants you your wishes, when worshiped as deity that removes obstacles, then Ganesha will act accordingly (in this case you may / may not not think of him as supreme Godhead) and you can ask Ganesha for granting moksha and rising above maya. Just like it is said that by grace of Vshnu / Krishna by grace of Ganesha, you can cross the ocean of samsara and rise above 3 gunas (maya)

Hari OM

[ale84]

Hello, devotee


No one controls laws of Karma.

I think Ishvara arranges the situations in the material world, for our karmas to come to fruition.
As I read somewhere:
"People do good and sinful work and get its fruits, either in this life or after. People themselves cannot be the giver of their fruits, as no one would give himself the fruit of his sin. Also, this giver cannot be an unconscious object. So the giver of the fruits of karma is Ishvara."

[silence_speaks]

Dear Ale84,
:) Ishvara gives fruits of one's karma as per the laws of karma.

The secret here is: Prayer is also a karma :) - it has its result.

Love!
Silence

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Hello, I'm doing japa to Lord Ganesha.
I'm chanting the mantra "Om Gam Ganapataye Namaha" 108 times.
My question is: how should I view Lord Ganesha? What is Ganesha from the advaitic point of view?
Should I consider him as Nirguna Brahman? Or as Ishvara/cosmic mind? Or as an aspect of Ishvara?
Does he control the law of karma?
If He can remove material and spiritual obstacles, then He must have some attributes.
Or should I view him as a symbol to focus my mind on the Absolute?

Thanks.
Namaste,
"Bhakti" literally means, "division". So as you can see, if you are sincere enough, Advaita and Bhakti don't go together very well.

With time, mental maturity, one overgrows philosophies. Ganesha will, however, be still there.

There is, in the final sum, nothing to choose between the so called "form" and the so called "formless".

KT

[ale84]

Hello, silence speaks


Dear Ale84,
:) Ishvara gives fruits of one's karma as per the laws of karma.

The secret here is: Prayer is also a karma :) - it has its result.

Love!
Silence

Thanks for the clarification.

[John Mortimer]

Hello, I'm doing japa to Lord Ganesha.
I'm chanting the mantra "Om Gam Ganapataye Namaha" 108 times.

Me too! :)



My question is: how should I view Lord Ganesha? What is Ganesha from the advaitic point of view?
Should I consider him as Nirguna Brahman?

I would say, definitely not that. Our conception of Lord Ganesha is the play of the 3 gunas. He points beyond himself to the Unnameable, the Unmanifest but Lord Ganesha is a manifestation of divine grace and if we are drawn to him we should accept him as he appears to us.


Or as Ishvara/cosmic mind? Or as an aspect of Ishvara?

I would say, certainly Lord Ganesha is a most auspicious manifestation of Ishvara.


Does he control the law of karma?
If He can remove material and spiritual obstacles, then He must have some attributes.

I can only speak from my own experience - that I have been happy not knowing what obstacles need to be removed and I just move forward in simple faith that Lord Ganesha will reveal and remove those obstacles that need removing. Very often the mind is deceptive. We think we know what are the obstacles and we want them removed, when in fact the things we see as obstacles are either:
1. not true obstacles but tricks of the mind
2. mere superficial expressions of something deeper, which is a true obstacle.

Om Shanti

[ale84]

Hello, John


I would say, certainly Lord Ganesha is a most auspicious manifestation of Ishvara.

In fact I read somewhere that it is easier for non-hindus or begginers to reach the grace of Ishvara by worshiping the form of Ganesha than other deities.
It's not that other forms are less powerfull, but Ganesha is the easiest to access.

[John Mortimer]

Hello, John



In fact I read somewhere that it is easier for non-hindus or begginers to reach the grace of Ishvara by worshiping the form of Ganesha than other deities.
It's not that other forms are less powerfull, but Ganesha is the easiest to access.

That's fascinating.... perhaps because the cultural obstacle is automatically overcome???:dunno:

[Eastern Mind]

Hello, John

In fact I read somewhere that it is easier for non-hindus or begginers to reach the grace of Ishvara by worshiping the form of Ganesha than other deities.
It's not that other forms are less powerfull, but Ganesha is the easiest to access.

Vannakkam: This is. I view as perhaps a confusion of two (or more schools) For those who don't consider Ganesha as Ishvara, but as a Separate God from the Supreme, this is true. Ganesha is easily accessible because He's not Ishvara. He's a separate divine being, created/emanated by Siva, for the pure purpose of being closer to worldly stuff.

However, for those who consider Him as another aspect of the Supreme (Smartas, for example) I don't see how he'd be any different in terms of accessability.

Of course I could be wrong.

Aum Namasivaya

[ale84]

Hello, Eastern Mind


Vannakkam: This is. I view as perhaps a confusion of two (or more schools) For those who don't consider Ganesha as Ishvara, but as a Separate God from the Supreme, this is true. Ganesha is easily accessible because He's not Ishvara. He's a separate divine being, created/emanated by Siva, for the pure purpose of being closer to worldly stuff.

However, for those who consider Him as another aspect of the Supreme (Smartas, for example) I don't see how he'd be any different in terms of accessability.

Of course I could be wrong.

Aum Namasivaya

If I understand well, Smarta is in line with the Advaita of Shankaracharya.
Am I right?

[Eastern Mind]

Hello, Eastern Mind

If I understand well, Smarta is in line with the Advaita of Shankaracharya.
Am I right?

Vannakkam:

Yes. The great Sankara revitalised Smarta.

Aum Namasivaya

[devotee]

Namaste ale,



I think Ishvara arranges the situations in the material world, for our karmas to come to fruition.
As I read somewhere:
"People do good and sinful work and get its fruits, either in this life or after. People themselves cannot be the giver of their fruits, as no one would give himself the fruit of his sin. Also, this giver cannot be an unconscious object. So the giver of the fruits of karma is Ishvara."

Regarding this God says in Bhagwad Gita :

Na Kartritvam, na karmANi loksya srijati prabhuh |
Na karmaphalasanyogam svabhAvstu pravartate ||

===> God is not the creator of "doership" or the "actions/Karmas" in this world and He doesn't take part in deciding the association of Results with the Actions. It is the Nature that works.

OM

[ale84]

Hello, devotee


Regarding this God says in Bhagwad Gita :

Na Kartritvam, na karmANi loksya srijati prabhuh |
Na karmaphalasanyogam svabhAvstu pravartate ||

===> God is not the creator of "doership" or the "actions/Karmas" in this world and He doesn't take part in deciding the association of Results with the Actions. It is the Nature that works.

Who's behind the laws of nature? How does it work in a causal way?

[devotee]

Namaste ale,


Who's behind the laws of nature? How does it work in a causal way?

It is Brahman. He is the power behind all powers. By his power everything in this universe works in order. Upanishads say : "By His fear the Sun shines" etc. Brahman is equated with great hard-task master with a raised thunderbolt in his hand.

OM

[ale84]

Hello, today while chanting my round of japa I've experienced something I didn't before.
While focusing in the chanting, my mind became still, thoughtless.
I've prolonged the silence lapse between one repetition and the next to focus on this state of mind.
It feels very strange because I have a very restless mind.
In fact when I was kid I had learning problems in school due to atention deficit hyperactive disorder.
I'm doin japa just for devotion and to reach the grace of Ishvara.
Is this stillness of mind also a result of this japa practice?
Is japa not just devotion but also a kind of meditation?

[John Mortimer]

Hello, today while chanting my round of japa I've experienced something I didn't before.
While focusing in the chanting, my mind became still, thoughtless.
I've prolonged the silence lapse between one repetition and the next to focus on this state of mind.
It feels very strange because I have a very restless mind.
In fact when I was kid I had learning problems in school due to atention deficit hyperactive disorder.
I'm doin japa just for devotion and to reach the grace of Ishvara.
Is this stillness of mind also a result of this japa practice?
Is japa not just devotion but also a kind of meditation?

Oh yes, most definitely the mind is eased into stillness.....that is certainly my experience. The mantra purifies one's energy field and the mind finds quietude. What more could we ask for?!

By the way - the simple "OM" / "AUM" mantra is the one I find maximizes the stilling of the mind.
I like to start my "OM" mantra with a few moments concentrating on the one thought, "I am the infinite silence...." After 108 "OM"s the wordless reality prior to thought is self-evident. :)

[silence_speaks]

Dear Ale84,
:)


Japa, Pranayama, Prayer etc are methods to still the mind.
Its possible to make the mind very calm and single pointed with some simple practices.

Japa is a very powerful tool. Sri Krishna himself mentions that he is japa amongst spiritual practices. Its such a wonderful technique. With the aid of proper understanding it can lead to liberation.

We should understand however that the aim of vedanta is not to calm the mind... it is to understand that i am not the mind ! This is a reverse approach ... one approach is to calm the mind and hold it like that. Another approach is to eliminate the reason for agitation so that it automatically remains calm.

Love!
Silence

[Amrut]

Hello, today while chanting my round of japa I've experienced something I didn't before.
While focusing in the chanting, my mind became still, thoughtless.
I've prolonged the silence lapse between one repetition and the next to focus on this state of mind.
It feels very strange because I have a very restless mind.
In fact when I was kid I had learning problems in school due to atention deficit hyperactive disorder.
I'm doin japa just for devotion and to reach the grace of Ishvara.
Is this stillness of mind also a result of this japa practice?
Is japa not just devotion but also a kind of meditation?

Namaste ale84,

I too have this experience during japa. It is good, just you mind is not habituated with this peaceful state. It will not make you mentally weak. you will feel fresh. Do not worry. The silence is very good. It shows you are moving in right direction.

Even I was never good in academics. this concentration is different from the concentration that we get in japa. The difference is
We chant name of God, which his not jaDa tatva, but the supreme power
In japa, mind calms down and focuses on only one thought - name of ISvara, all else fade away.
Mind turns introvert.Mind is not trained to think and remain extrovert. It has habit to remain active and be in tune with gross worldly objects. In japa, you make a 'U' turn and turn it introvert and focus on ISvara, which is subtler than the mind itself. This state of mind in which there are no or few thoughts is rare to attain. So you are fortunate :)

The concentration is absence of worldly thoughts (not literally). Thoughts on God like recalling his lila, or stotras are also directed towards God. This stuti, removes all the worldly thoughts. Now mind only thinks of God. concentration becomes natural when we have a longing for God or we have bhAva (spiritual emotion) towards God.

Be it any person of any level of concentration, when one is fully engrossed in a climax scene in a movie or TV serial, then that person is not aware of anything that is going outside, near him and he is not even aware of his own body. Even if body is in uncomfortable position i.e. you are sitting in awkward posture, still you do not feel any pain, until the climax is over and you are again conscious of your surroundings and your own body.

This happens to all. What matters is our interest, our commitment, longing for God and bhAva, spiritual emotions. We get this bhAva from reading stuti-s, glories of Gods, sahasranama chanting, listening to puranas and stories related to the form of God we are worshiping, etc. Longing comes when worldly desires are very few, even though this state may be temperary, still you will feel longing for short period of time.

Based on this factors and our will to have his divine vision are key to natural concentration. If mind gives more importance to God, then it will think of God, if it gives imp to world, gods name fades away and one is deeply involved in worldly issues.

Are you getting me?


Is this stillness of mind also a result of this japa practice?
Yes

Is japa not just devotion but also a kind of meditation?
it is a kind of meditation, as you are awar eof silence

mantra, silence, mantra, silence, .... so there is constant awareness of the whole process. Then, as per my experience, mind sinks into the source of mantra. This is when the real peace and bliss are experienced. When mind is fully concentrated in mantra, then too bliss and joy are experienced.

If mantra continues on itself, try to be aware of mantra and then do to the source. Se what happens. Dont worry ,nothing is going to happen to you.

Hari OM