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silence_speaks
07 September 2014, 01:22 AM
SELF INQUIRY POST 1:

I was reading an article in one of my favorite web sites and someone has asked: "How to go deeper in Self Inquiry" ?

I want to elaborate on this in the next few posts here.

In short I want to address : What is Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Self Inquiry and how it works. Why some people seem to find it too difficult. We need to gain clarity on this.

There are many mistaken notions about Self inquiry which make it seem almost impossible. People have some exotic notions which they keep chasing in the name of Self Inquiry. There are others who make use of those exotic ideas and try to make some disciples. For example suppose a disciple goes to a guru and asks "Sir, how can I dive deeper into my self" ... and the guru says "my child, you have to do a lot more practice", and then adds a big list of practices ... !

But an Ashtavakra would say "Muktha eva asi sarvadha", you are ever free ! There is no diving in! This later statement is not clearly seen while its easy to get hooked to idea of practices as most modern gurus suggest.

Then there are others who say "muktha eva asi sarvadha", copying Ashtavakra style but do not have the methodology to systematically demonstrate that You are the Self !

We will take into account all these issues and try to gain a holistic perspective on Self Inquiry ... rather than understanding it in bits and pieces ... as we proceed with this series of posts on Self Inquiry

silence_speaks
07 September 2014, 01:22 AM
SELF INQUIRY POST 2:

As I already mentioned, there are lot of wrong ideas and notions built around Self Inquiry and in order for us to clearly appreciate what it is, its important to root out the wrong ideas or notions. Some of these might be very unacceptable for many devotees since they have been thinking on these lines for many years! So as I dismiss the notions, I give appropriate references from the works of Ramana, Annamalai Swami and Shankaracharya. We need to take the teaching in a holistic fashion and not in bits and pieces.

Wrong Notion1: Self Inquiry Leads to An Experience Of Realization

As exotic as this seems, its the biggest hurdle in one's way to appreciate Self Inquiry. Annamalai Swami stresses it again and again that we do not need a new experience. So it would not be right for us to think that Self Inquiry is to gain yet another experience. Experience, in any case, is just as good as our interpretation of it. There is nothing like an experience of liberation. Here is a quote from Annamalai Swami:

"Spiritual seekers have a very strange habit: they are always looking for a way to reach, attain,discover,experience, or realize the Self. They try many things because they cannot comprehend that they are already the Self. This is like running around looking for one's eyes with one's own eyes.
Why should you imagine that it is some new experience to be discovered or found ? You are the Self right now, and you are aware of it right now. Do you need a new experience to prove that you exist? The feeling "I am existing" is the Self. You pretend that you are not experiencing it, or cover it up with all kinds of false ideas, and then you run around looking for it as if it were something external to be reached or found. There is a story about someone like thus.
Once a king imagined that he was a poverty-striken peasant. He thought , "if I go and meet the king he may be able to help me by giving some money"
He searched for the king in many places but he could not find him anywhere. Ultimately he became very depressed because his search was not yielding any results. One day he met a man on the road who asked him why he was so depressed.
He answered, " I am searching for the king. I think that he can solve all my problems and make me happy but I cant find him anywhere".
The man, who already recognized him, said with some astonishment, "But you yourself as the king!"
The king came to his senses and remembered who he was. His problems all ended the moment he remembered his real identity.
You may think that the king was fairly stupid but he had at least enough sense to recognize the truth when it was told to him.
The guru may tell his disciples a thousand times "You are the self, you are not what you imagine youself ot be", they all keep asking the guru for methods and routes to reach the place they are already are."

silence_speaks
07 September 2014, 01:23 AM
SELF INQUIRY POST 3:

Friends, in my study of Self Inquiry I started by negating some wrong ideas. I will try and demonstrate that once we drop these wrong ideas and notions, Self Inquiry is very simple and direct means to abide as Self. Lets therefore proceed to look delve deeper into this.

The first idea, I have negated is the notion that "Self Inquiry leads to an Experience". I have taken the help of Annamalai Swami's statements as support to this view. Let me now proceed to the second wrong notion:

Wrong Notion 2: Aim Of Self Inquiry is Thoughtless State.

Self Inquiry is supposed to lead to liberation therefore if we are able to have enough evidence that liberation does not mean thoughtless state, this wrong notion can be dismissed.
So here are the quotes to support this view:

"Nothing can cause bondage for the Jnani because his mind is dead. In the absence of mind he knows himself only as consciousness. Because the mind is dead, he is no longer able to identify himself with the body. But even though he knows that he is not the body, its a fact that the body is still alive. That body will continue to live, and the Jnani will continue to be aware of it, until its own karma is exhausted. Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be aware of the thoughts and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for him because he never identifies with them"
---> Living by the words of Bhagavan pg 267

infact in a conversation with Ramana, Bhagavan tells Annamalai Swami that Samadhi does not mean thoughtlessness:

"Does Samadhi mean that one is unaware of everything ?" , I asked.
"No," said Bhagavan. "Mediation will go on without our effort. That is Samadhi"
"Then what is Sahaja Samadhi ?", I asked.
Bhagavan answered by saying , " In that state meditation will always be going on. In that State the thought , 'I am meditating' or 'I am not meditating' will not occur".

This tells us that thoughtlessness is not liberation. There are ample evidences in various scriptural texts that explain that thoughtlessness is not liberation. We will cite some of them a little later. Thus it can be safely concluded that the purpose of Self Inquiry is not to become thoughtless. This is a totally wrong notion.

But then, does not Ramana himself say that one should direct one's attention to the root of each thought as it arises until they no more arise ? We will look into Self Inquiry as taught by Ramana in his own words a little later. When we look at statements like this in isolation and miss the holistic teaching of Ramana we will not be able to understand him correctly. I am afraid that some of the popular followers of Ramana have missed the mark ! I will dedicate the next few posts also to establish more clearly that Ramana did not mean elimination of thoughts to be the aim of Self Inquiry --- this is important to properly understand the True teaching of Ramana


Note: It is yet another thing if due to lack of desires thoughts do not arise. To a Jnani presence or absence of thoughts is not a problem.

silence_speaks
07 September 2014, 01:24 AM
SELF INQUIRY POST 4:

I have cited a few quotations of Ramana and Annamalai Swami to convey that thoughtlessness is not the aim of Self Inquiry. Let me here present the logical reasons for the same.

1. The teaching is that "I AM NOT THE MIND", if I am not the mind then how does it matter if mind has thoughts or not ?
2. Suppose Ramana says "Practise Self Inquiry to remove your thoughts", then it means Ramana has "I" and "You" notion , without which he could not have come to the conclusion that you have thoughts and would benefit from self inquiry. Some people raise a rather weird objection to this by saying "Ramana had no thoughts, it is you who see him as having thoughts" ... with that, the Ramana who had no thoughts never appears to us , since we always see a Ramana who has thoughts ... so the one who says to us that he has no thoughts would turn out to be actually the one we are seeing as having thoughts ! That is a problem.
3. If thoughts bother me, how can i say i am not mind ?
4. The only way for anyone to know that Ramana had no thoughts is for him to say "I have no thoughts"... and when he says it, there exists another person who has thoughts. So, that would mean Ramana is talking from the perspective of an individual mind .... his own mind .... which has no thoughts ?? Since when my mind still has thoughts, how can he say he has no thoughts unless he sees his mind as separate from my mind , in which case that itself would become a thought !!

So as we see, there can be various logical flaws in concluding that thoughtlessness is liberation. We will shortly also see some evidence from panchadasi , yoga vasishta, ashtavakra gita etc which explain this same point.

silence_speaks
07 September 2014, 01:24 AM
SELF INQUIRY POST 5:

Panchadasi says in chapter 7, verse 180:

So what is my understanding that thoughtlessness is not liberation based upon ? There are various quotes... form different scriptural texts. Here , I quote a few. Those that are not yet convinced may have to perform their own unbiased study based on the clues I provide here:

anapahnutya lokaastadindrajaalamida.N tviti |
jaanantyevaanapahnutya bhoga.N maayaatvadhiistathaa||

अनपह्नुत्य लोकास्तदिन्द्रजालमिदँ त्विति।
जानन्त्येवानपह्नुत्य भोगँ मायात्वधीस्तथा॥

anapahnutya : without removing
Lokaah : the world
tad-indrajaalam : the magic show
idam: ths
tu: but
iti thus
jaananti eva : knows very well
anapahnutya : without removing
bhogam enjoyment
mayaatva - dhiH : the knowledge of the illusory nature
tatha : in the same way.

people know a magic show to be unreal, but this knowledge does not involve the destruction of the show. The same way it is possible to know the illusory nature of external objects without causing their disappearance or the cessation of enjoyment from them.

It would be an interesting exercise to read verses following 180, where panchadasi clearly states that removal of duality or thoughtlessness is not liberation.

----------------------

Annamalai Swami ji says in Final Talks that once the world is known as unreal, it does not matter whether thoughts exist or not. He further says that thoughts vanish according to one's prarabdha karma. They vanish when the corresponding prarabdha karma is exhausted. Mind and body are under the influence of prarabdha karma.

-----------------

Next I would like to quote Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi himself, from living by the words of Bhagavan:

Q: The mind does not sink into that state even for a second.
A: A strong conviction is necessary that `I am the Self, transcending the mind and the phenomena.'

Q: Nevertheless, the mind proves to be an unyielding obstacle which thwarts any attempts to sink into the Self.
A: What does it matter if the mind is active? It is so only on the substratum of the Self. Hold the Self even during mental activities.

--------------------

This tells us that Mind being active is not a problem at all. This is one of the clearest presentation of this fact. We further get a very important clue "FIRM CONVICTION THAT I AM SELF, TRANSCENDING THE MIND AND THE PHENOMENA". This is the most essential statement . How can we get this conviction ? We will park this question for the moment. We will address this next.

I would further like to quote from Ashtavakra Gita:

Ashtavakra Gita chapter1, verse 15:

niHsa~Ngo niShkriyo.asi tva.N svaprakaasho nira~njanaH |
ayameva hi te bandhaH samaadhimanutiShThasi ||

निःसङ्गो निष्क्रियोऽसि त्वँ स्वप्रकाशो निरञ्जनः।
अयमेव हि ते बन्धः समाधिमनुतिष्ठसि॥

You are unattached, actionless and self -effulgent, without any taints. "You try to make your mind thoughtless, practise samadhi", this indeed is your bondage !

Why is this bondage ? Because, mind is not me! If i am trying to make the mind calm to see myself as calm, i am perpetuating the ignorance that mind is me!! The teaching is crystal clear.

-----------------

Even in yoga vasishta, saragu tells his friend "Why do you think remaining thoughtlessness is liberation".

There are many similar references in Yoga vasishta, in the story of chudala also. ..

--------------

Tripura Rahasyam has even more interesting argument. In chapter 10, verse 15 onwards we have an interesting conversation. The context is , Hemalekha, the realized wife teaches her husband about Self Knowledge. The husband realizes the truth and remains seated in Samadhi when his wife talks to him. He says:

aho daivahataa bhaasi GYaatvaapi tvamida.N padam |
tadvishraanti.N parityajya mudhaa duHkhaaya ceShTase ||

अहो दैवहता भासि ज्ञात्वापि त्वमिदँ पदम्।
तद्विश्रान्तिँ परित्यज्य मुधा दुःखाय चेष्टसे॥

You appear to be unfortunate, even having known this Truth,
instead of remaining dissolved in the Truth, you seem to leave this Self and involve yourself in the worldly activities which are full of suffering !!

And the answer given by Hemalekha is really wonderful. She says :

naatha te tanna vidita.N pada.N paramapaavanam||
नाथ ते तन्न विदितँ पदँ परमपावनम्॥

Oh Lord! you have not yet known the reality about your Self Completely.

She continues ...

"nimiilyonmiilya vaa netre tatpada.N na samiixyate

निमील्योन्मील्य वा नेत्रे तत्पदँ न समीक्ष्यते

That State of realization, is not lost or gained by the opening or closing of eyes [closing of eyes here is reference to remaining thoughtless]...."

she then says ...

"doing something or not doing something does not affect your Self ! You neither gain Self through doing something nor not doing something ! What is achieved through closing of eyes or doing something or going somewhere [or remaining thoughtless--- closing of eyes here is reference to remaining thoughtless], can that be the Complete One ? The Whole ?"

------------------------

With all these references if someone still equates thoughtlessness to liberation, then its unfortunate. Wherever there are references to thoughtlessness, its not to say that mind has to be come thoughtless but that Self is ever thoughtless even when there are thoughts in the mind. The thoughts of the mind are like clouds passing before the Space like Awareness. There are never any thoughts in awareness, neither will thoughts ever affect the awareness. This knowledge makes one see oneself as Awarness, ever thoughtless. This is what is meant by remaining thoughtlessness and the advice is not to make mind thoughtless. Even as, to see myself as immortal, does not mean that the body has to become immortal. It just means the knowledge that i am not the body.

silence_speaks
07 September 2014, 01:25 AM
SELF INQUIRY 6:

We have now given enough quotes and supporting statements to reject out two wrong ideas:
1. Self Inquiry leads to an experience, called the experience of liberation. This is a wrong idea. The idea that a new experience is needed is wrong idea.

2. Self Inquiry leads to thoughtlessness. Thoughtlessness is liberation. This is also a wrong idea. We have given enough quotations in post 5 of this series to substantiate that this is a wrong idea.

So then, what is the purpose of Self Inquiry ? If we understand this properly, its absolutely easy. We will see this aspect in our next post.

Believer
07 September 2014, 10:23 AM
Namaste,


I was reading an article in one of my favorite web sites......

Some of us are deeply, deeply hurt and disappointed that HDF is not your favorite Hindu web site. :)

Pranam.

silence_speaks
08 September 2014, 12:37 AM
Dear Believer ,
:)

"one of my fav." ;) Thats the escape route I left myself in my statement !! :)

There is no doubt that HDF is an excellent website

Love!
Silence

ameyAtmA
12 September 2014, 08:58 PM
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"Nothing can cause bondage for the Jnani because his mind is dead. In the absence of mind he knows himself only as consciousness. Because the mind is dead, he is no longer able to identify himself with the body. But even though he knows that he is not the body, its a fact that the body is still alive. That body will continue to live, and the Jnani will continue to be aware of it, until its own karma is exhausted. Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be aware of the thoughts and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for him because he never identifies with them"
---> Living by the words of Bhagavan pg 267
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Namaste,

The above is what I filter out from this thread and then frame it.

silence_speaks
12 September 2014, 10:39 PM
Dear AmeyAtma,
:) Namasthe!


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Namaste,

The above is what I filter out from this thread and then frame it.

yes ideed ... but if mind is dead, how can it be functioning or non-functioning. What did he mean by death of mind in such a case ?

Love!
Silence

ameyAtmA
12 September 2014, 11:03 PM
Dear AmeyAtma,
:) Namasthe!



yes ideed ... but if mind is dead, how can it be functioning or non-functioning. What did he mean by death of mind in such a case ?

Love!
Silence

Namaste Silence

Rather than giving an answer in words, I would like to simply illustrate the point with examples of dead minds :

1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=120022&postcount=15


Sant DnyAneshwar calls it the amrut-zarA (eternal waterfall of nectar ). Gauranga calls it the bhakti latA (creeper of pure devotion) that broke the outer covering of the material universe.
What is this? It is that spontaneity, that never causes boredom, whose navaneet evergreen freshness never tapers off.

What is this? and Where is this?
It is in the Divinity of the Divine, the mAdhurya (sweetness) of mAdhav, vAsudevatva of vAsudev, kAruNya of the karNAsAgar, that tattva (principle) and the Source of that tattva, madhU of madhusUdan, saundarya of ShyAmsundar, daivI guNa of the nirguN, ...

2. Gossip of the season: Oh Radha has gone crazy (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=120024&postcount=130)

:) :) :) Trust me I did not make those two posts in order to make a point on this thread. It looks like Mukunda had a plan and used this puppet-instrument to plant the seeds. What of that puppet? Dead mind?

----
The mind-dead jnani is too engrossed in this "amrut-zarA" to pay attention to/ internally-externally react to the people who treated the jnani as an imbecile, insulted, shamed, showed contempt, condemned, belittled the jnani. Since the mind is dead.

MIND sprouts from EGO-DRIVEN CONCEPTUALIZATION OF LOCAL ME.
Of Course. The Chaturvyuha : Four Whorls of the Lotus-Being

1. VAsudev --- AtmA -- innermost whorl from which arises
|
|
2. SankarshaN --- ahaMkAr (ego)-- second whorl from which arises
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3. Pradyumna -- mAnas (mind) -- third whorl (vyuha)
|
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4. Aniruddha --- buddhi (intellect) -- fourth whorl

silence_speaks
13 September 2014, 01:27 AM
Dear ameyAtmA,
:) Namasthe!

Nice post. Now, please see ...

You have now presented a view. A view based upon your understanding of "dead mind" as per Ramana.

If this has to be what Ramana said it has to be in concurrence with his teaching elsewhere. That is a holistic way of looking at it .

Here is what Annamalai Swami says [Ramana also says it several time]:
Mind is never there to be killed !

What does it mean ?

From your interpretation ... when "Bhakti" overflows ... there is a "transformation" which leads to mind-less "state"

but Ramana's statement is not about a "Transformation" ... its about "Now" , "Here" ? He says "Mind never IS" ! How can that be ?



And Most Important: They say the "Experience" is already there in every one !! How come ?

Quotes for this are already present above !

Love!
Silence

ameyAtmA
13 September 2014, 09:34 AM
Namaste

That was your interpretation of my post -- "that there is a transformation" :)
I never said that anywhere.

If you look at the first link above, I said in that post --- that the so-called devotee is non-existent. There is nothing great about the devotee becs there isn't one around. The wonder and greatness lies in the Divine itself.


Easier than that is never ever getting tired of the Holy Names and becoming a cookie monster for the Holy Names.
Can't have enough of that Beloved Mukunda -- but this does not make the devotee-cookie-monster some wonder or a "great devotee" because this "me" in this context is non-existent! The wonder is in the Holy Names, Holy Forms, Divine qualities, pastimes of the Divine!

Hari nAma PrabhU, Hari Himself, Hari guNa gAvA, Hari lIlA , Hari rUpa, Hari rasa Hari bhakti Hari pyAsa....

So the illusory mind being dead means there isn't one to begin with. It is simply the Divine interacting with the Divine, the wonders and glories of the Divine.

Jaya MAdhava madana murAri

ameyAtmA
13 September 2014, 09:52 AM
FOOTNOTE: Cookie-Monster is a favourite character from the very popular American children's TV Serial "Sesame Street". Cookie-monster is the blue-colored puppet who can eat an unlimited number of cookies and is always eating cookies but always wants more cookies. So what do you do? Feed him cookies.

silence_speaks
13 September 2014, 09:44 PM
Dear ameyAtmA,
:) Nice post.

Let me continue with my questions ... What ever you wrote till now seems exactly in accordance with Self Inquiry. Ramana mentioned a millon times that Complete Self Surrender and Self Inquiry are one and the same.

But with all that I still have my question :):

There being only one.... who does Devotion to whom ?


Love!
Silence

ameyAtmA
13 September 2014, 10:15 PM
Thank You Silence :)

Let me continue with my questions ... What ever you wrote till now seems exactly in accordance with Self Inquiry. Ramana mentioned a millon times that Complete Self Surrender and Self Inquiry are one and the same.

But with all that I still have my question :):

There being only one.... who does Devotion to whom ?


Love!
Silence

:) :)

That first smiley is Me as Radha. The second smiley is Me as Mukunda, KRshNa. Although I alone AM, Shri RAdhA is my Beloved Self, an embodiment of Prem. She is Me , Svayam. I am Her Sva.

I revel in Myself as Radha-KRshNa. KRshNa-Radha. RAdhA-KRshNa KRshNa KRshNa Radha Radha

MaiyA-BAlGopAl BAlGopAl-MaiyA MaiyA-GopAl GopAl-MaiyA

Premi-Preetam Lover-Beloved Radhe-KRshNa Radhe-KRshNa

Shri KRshNa Chaitanya!

** Dear readers, please note this is NOT a [local] mind speaking. This is the real innermost One, the all-pervading One. This is PREM. Please do not misunderstand the words "Me" "Myself" and "Self" to be what they are not. Read very carefully or else do not read, rather...

...Please listen to beloved JayA Kishori Ji
RAdhe KRshNA, RAdhe KRshNa, KRshNa KRshNa, RAdhe RAdhe, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq9AOcaZkVc)
RAdhe ShyAm, RAdhe ShyAmA, ShyAm ShyAmA, RAdhe RAdhe

RAdhe KRshNA, RAdhe KRshNA, KRshNA KRshNA RAdhe RAdhe
RAdhe ShyAm RAdhe ShyAm, ShyAm ShyAm, RAdhe RAdhe

RAdhe ? KR~ ~ shNA RAdhe ? KR~ ~shNA
KRshNA ? KR~ ~shNA RAdhe ? RAdhe RAdhe

RAdhe ? ShyA~ ~ mA RAdhe ? ShyA~ ~mA
ShyA~ ~mA ? ShyA~ ~mA RAdhe ? RAdhe...
...
..
.

silence_speaks
14 September 2014, 08:46 AM
Dear Ameyatma,
:) Very nice!

So in deep sleep is there Radha or Krishna or both ?

Love!
Silence

ameyAtmA
14 September 2014, 02:45 PM
Dear Ameyatma,
:) Very nice!

So in deep sleep is there Radha or Krishna or both ?

Love!
Silence

praNAm

Don't ask how "deep" the sleep is, but during sleep, it is mostly KRshNa Who is
a) silent and Bramhan-nirvAN, AND/ AND-OR
b) looking over the lovely RAdhA who is either

b.1) truly fast asleep [mostly not]
b.2) dreaming of KAnhu
b.3) pretending to sleep and enjoying all the attention She is getting as a result
b.4) observing nonsensical thoughts/dreams injected by mAyA
b.5) awake and existing with Shri KRshNa while the body rests, and also engaging in lIlA, travel...

:)

In any case, (a) always always holds, perpetually because this is KRshNa's perpetual eternal state although He manifests multiple / numerous other states in addition, simultaneously. (BramhaNo hi pratishThA aham ...BG 14.27)

silence_speaks
15 September 2014, 12:42 AM
Dear Ameyatma,
:) Namasthe!

I am loving your replies....
so I will continue questioning, to get more :) LOL:

If something keeps appearing and disappearing ... its just a figment of imagination : Mandukya upanishad ! So is Radha a mere figment of imagination ?

Love!
Silence

ameyAtmA
15 September 2014, 09:02 PM
:)
RAdhA is KRshNa Svayam. RAdhA is always in and with KRshNa because RAdhA is His alhAdini Shakti (Anand) and inseperable from Him.

BhagavAn performs LIlA. However, just because He is quiet at a point does not mean RAdhA has disappeared.


om LIlAmAnushavigrahAya namah:

devotee
16 September 2014, 04:57 AM
Namaste ameyAtma,

How are your posts helping the intent of this thread ? Please stick to the topic. I am afraid, this thread is on way to getting derailed completely. Posts considered trying to derail the topic may be deleted.

OM

silence_speaks
16 September 2014, 05:20 AM
Namaste ameyAtma,

How are your posts helping the intent of this thread ? Please stick to the topic. I am afraid, this thread is on way to getting derailed completely. Posts considered trying to derail the topic may be deleted.

OM

Dear Devotee ji,
:) I should say that its my mistake, as I started by questioning. From next time I will try to ensure that the discussions regarding a topic are done in a separate thread so that the main thread itself is not disturbed.

As such Supreme Bhakti and Self Inquiry are one and the same. Only difference is in the view points. That said, what you mentioned is true: the main purpose of the post should be maintained, for which i am responsible in this particular case.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
16 September 2014, 07:00 AM
SELF INQUIRY POST 7:

We have discussed what is not Self Inquiry till now. Now let us start looking into what is Self Inquiry. To start with , I will present what I understand it as and then substantiate my claims with the aid of quotes of Ramana and various scriptures.

First of all, the essential teaching of Ramana Maharshi is not "Ask Who am I". His essential teaching is "Just Be" and only when someone complained that I cannot "Just Be", did he suggest "Inquire Who cannot just Be".

So , the fundamental teaching is "Just Be" ! When a person cannot Just Remain, Self Inquiry is a "Technique" that can bring him back to Himself. This is what Self Inquiry is about.

As such the external practice itself does not matter. whether I ask "Who am I" or "Naan Yaar" or do not ask any questions but revert back to myself , it should not matter. What I do , externally is not what defines Self Inquiry. Even as ... whether i chant a prayer or not ... if i remain silent "with" God, its prayer. the external chanting , with mind reveling in something else ... is not prayer. Even so , asking "Who am i" without reverting to Self is not self inquiry.

So Self Inquiry is ... lets define ... "Any technique I use to remain with myself" ... a tool for Self Abidance. When I take myself to be the mind, any tool I use to revert back to see myself as untouched by mind is Self inquiry. Whether i say "Who am i" or simply remain as "I AM" , its just the same. External method should not matter. So also, if someone is able to simply chant the name of God to "Just Be" he is doing Self Inquiry. While a person who keeps asking "Who am i" ... in darkness hoping for some answer is confused and is not doing Self Inquiry.

I have just set a context for Self Inquiry. We need a proper definition... a clear and precise one... so for that I use the following statement from Ashtavakra Gita. I can think of no better statement about Self Inquiry :

यदि देहं पृथक् कृत्य चिति विश्राम्य तिष्ठसि ।
अधुनैव सुखी शान्तो बन्धमुक्तो भविष्यसि ॥१-४॥

If you detach yourself from the body and remain relaxed as Awareness, Immediately you experience happiness, calmness and freedom from bondage.

A few people will try to disagree since the source of this statement is from ashtavakra gita and not Ramana's gospel. God bless those who think on those lines. As for me, I will support my claim with through analysis in the posts to follow.

So this definition .... Detaching yourself from body and remaining relaxed in Awareness is called Self Inquiry.

Ramana gave a simple method if detach from body and remain as Awareness. There may be many equivalent ways... its not the external method but the actual "Detachment from body to relax into awareness" that should be called Self Inquiry. Remaining Relaxed in Awareness is called "Just Be". We will see all this clearly and precisely as these posts continue ....

devotee
18 September 2014, 02:56 AM
Namaste SS,


Spiritual seekers have a very strange habit: they are always looking for a way to reach, attain,discover,experience, or realize the Self. They try many things because they cannot comprehend that they are already the Self. This is like running around looking for one's eyes with one's own eyes.

My feeling is that though the above is perfectly OK from the point of view of a Self-realised soul, just believing in above and do nothing (as we already are which is the highest Truth), may lead to further delusion. Why do I say this ? I have seen many Internet-debaters believing that they are already Self-realised (Though, with the above, it becomes fallacious and yet I am using this term to differentiate the two conditions in absence of any better term). However, when you find that they are still riddled with greed/egoism and other weaknesses, you start feeling that this is all hollow claim and actually they are badly deluded.

What do you say on this ?

OM

silence_speaks
18 September 2014, 04:13 AM
Dear Devotee,
:) Namasthe !
Thank you for the question.

The teaching of Vedanta is "You are Purna/Complete or Fulfilled". It is not "You have to become Fulfilled".

The only problem is with someone who has not discovered that inner fulfillment ... but somehow developed attachment to this "Claim" that "I am Fulfilled".

Vedanta Panchadasi (vidhyaranya swami) argues : Even when a person does not see himself as fulfilled, but claims he is fulfilled ... its still fine since the statement is not false. In the wake of Knowledge (True discovery), the statement does not get negated. So, as such its good and perfectly fine to believe and have conviction on this. Ribhu Gita says that firm conviction becomes the primary means to actual discovery.... because anyways we are that.

The problem however is when a person says "I am Fulfilled --- You are Not"... the statements "I am not Fulfilled" or "You are Not Fulfilled" are lies... they perpetuate ignorance and are never a vedantic statement.

We should never try to prove to someone that "they are not fulfilled" -- because such an attempt is against vedantic vision. So my approach is ... if someone has not yet discovered fulfillment but claims it ... i appreciate the claim and agree ... until a moment where he says "someone else is not fulfilled or that he himself has some problems"... and then correct the vision so that he sees himself as ever fulfilled.


A fulfilled person naturally and automatically acts out of inner completeness ... so compassion, clarity and simplicity are automatic expressions.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
18 September 2014, 04:22 AM
Dear Devotee,
:) I would further like to add:
In Vedantic learning, one should refrain from categorizing people as "Low", "Medium", "High" ... or "realized", "unrealized", "very materialistic" etc.... whenever we see such divisions in the scriptures they are only to aid us improve ... not to use it as a yardstick categorize people.


A student of vedanta is supposed to learn and keep improving himself ... that we are all evver fulfilled is given... so we have to see it again and again with the aid of a teacher so that we can effortlessly see ourselves as such ... and so ... naturally discover inner completeness and satisfaction....

there is total acceptance ... and joy all along !

its a beautiful journey all along. everyone is welcome to live it ... everyone is welcome with open hands to discover their own inner fulfillment which is already given ... free !

Love!
Silence

devotee
18 September 2014, 10:43 PM
Namaste Silence,

My intent was not to categorise anyone but to emphasize upon dangers hidden for unprepared seekers in assuming that they have attained what they have not yet attained. Upanishads have warned at quite a few places that this highest knowledge should not be imparted to each and everyone indiscriminately. What is the harm, if everyone is already the Self or nobody has to realise anything ?

My post is not to counter what you offered but just to clarify my position on this issue. Maharshi Ramana does talk of various instruments to attain realisation. In his book "Reflections" he advises the following instruments :

a) Contemplation (Who am I ?) --- for seekers who have no problem in concentration and who are capable of differentiating between Self and not-self.

b) Devotion to God (Bhakti) --- For those whose mind is not at rest and they can't concentrate and discriminate easily.

c) Meditation --- This is another instrument to bring the restless mind in control.

d) PrANAyAm (Breath control) --- Prescribed for those who are just the beginners and have very restless minds.

These instruments help us in discarding everything what is not-self and stay in Self. The mind has to learn to be silent without a chatter. Only when this is achieved, with the grace of Guru the Self shines and then we realise our true nature.

We are already Self and we don't have to become or convert into Self ... this is absolutely true. However, we stick to strong identification with not-self like our body/ego/intellect/past impressions etc. This dirt which covers the Self must be removed and the state when it is removed is Self-realisation.

The above is my understanding but I can't claim that it is flawless.

OM

silence_speaks
19 September 2014, 01:22 AM
Dear Devotee ji,
:) Namasthe!

I am really happy to see your posts and the questions.

1. Scriptures do state again and again that this knowledge should not be presented to those who are not eligible for it. Yoga Vasishta makes it very clear:



This knowledge is for one who is not totally deluded(Who does not seek this knowledge), nor for the one who is fully liberated (since he does not need). It is for one who understands he is bound (to understand i am bound means i am not fully deluded. It means i understand clearly. I am a seeker) and wants to find a way out of the bondage.


I have not seen a better description for qualification. Do you feel you are bound and seek to find a way out of it through study of scriptures and by learning from Sadhus ? If yes, you are eligible for it. If no! then you either dont need this knowledge or not eligible for it yet.

There are other places where sadhana chatushtayam etc are mentioned. These are qualities we should develop as we study. One of my professors used to state the prerequisites for a course and add: Either you come with these prerequisites and learning will be easy or you are ready to work harder and pick up these prerequisites as the course progresses.

So The qualifications can be acquired quickly if the desire for liberation is strong.


Finally , regarding Ramana's teachings .... Though these are all different externally --- what happens within is just the same. For example: externally i may be chanting a prayer with the aid of which I resolve myself and remain as "Self"! Externally i may do a little bit of pranayama ... internally i remain as Self with its aid. Externally i might ask "Who am i" ... to Just Be as Self ! :)

Externally there are seeming differences in the methods. internal abidance is the end for all. But Ramana categorized these as superior or inferior since ... if i need the aid of loud chanting to be with myself ... i cannot do it anywhere or everywhere ! If I can simply do japa and be with myself ... its a little better , because there is no external aid needed. I can do it in a train or a cab. But then i cannot do japa while working [until atleast it transforms to ajapa] ... so to remain with Self without the aid of any such means is said to be superior, since i can be it 24 7! And whether or not i can remain as Self 24 7 depends on my understanding and conviction alone !

Love!
Silence