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Viraja
01 October 2014, 04:40 PM
Namaste HDF members,

I have been browsing around and I noticed that many devotees of Sanathana Dharma feel a certain 'distance' with god/their ishta-devata. Afterall, it is said that more than someone 'choosing' their ishta-devata, it is the 'ishta-devata' that chooses them and that is why, the blessed ones feel the 'pull'. Given that, why would one feel the said 'distance' with such an ishta-devata? I thought that not doing daily sadhana would be the main reason. Without daily sadhana, one would not have the feeling of 'emotional investment' and 'bondage' with their ishta to the point that over time, they feel they have no connection whatsoever with their ishta.

So thinking along above lines, I started wondering why does it become important other than the above stated factor, to do 'daily sadhana'? Why is it not sufficient to, for example, do sadhana on a weekly basis, such as Christians attending 'mass'?

What benefits and what necessities mandate a daily sadhana? Your thoughts...

EDIT:

Some other relevant questions:

1. Are there any guidelines on the length of daily sadhana? Any prescribed minimal duration?

2. Is attending a temple a substitute for daily sadhana or not? And vice versa, can daily sadhana at home suffice for not attending a temple on a daily basis?

Ram11
01 October 2014, 10:08 PM
Namaste HDF members,

I have been browsing around and I noticed that many devotees of Sanathana Dharma feel a certain 'distance' with god/their ishta-devata. Afterall, it is said that more than someone 'choosing' their ishta-devata, it is the 'ishta-devata' that chooses them and that is why, the blessed ones feel the 'pull'. Given that, why would one feel the said 'distance' with such an ishta-devata? I thought that not doing daily sadhana would be the main reason. Without daily sadhana, one would not have the feeling of 'emotional investment' and 'bondage' with their ishta to the point that over time, they feel they have no connection whatsoever with their ishta.

So thinking along above lines, I started wondering why does it become important other than the above stated factor, to do 'daily sadhana'? Why is it not sufficient to, for example, do sadhana on a weekly basis, such as Christians attending 'mass'?

What benefits and what necessities mandate a daily sadhana? Your thoughts...

EDIT:

Some other relevant questions:

1. Are there any guidelines on the length of daily sadhana? Any prescribed minimal duration?

2. Is attending a temple a substitute for daily sadhana or not? And vice versa, can daily sadhana at home suffice for not attending a temple on a daily basis?


Namaste Ji,

What you said is true,Sri Sharada Devi said that one must give up laziness and do the daily Sadhana.It helps to remove the negative thoughts,purify the mind and prepare it for meditation on God.

Visiting temples and daily Sadhana are different things.Both are important and good but one cannot be substituted for another.Sri Sharada Devi also said that sometimes it may be difficult to visit holy places,so the devotee can worship the Lord at home itself and whenever possible he/she must try to visit temples.

Eastern Mind
02 October 2014, 09:17 AM
Vannakkam Viraja: We bathe daily, brush teeth daily, eat daily, chat with our loved ones daily. All this replenishes our physical and emotional bodies and spirits.

The spiritual body needs replenishing too. It's soul maintenance. Many can probably feel the difference, especially if they become habitual, and then for some reason miss it. (illness, travel, other unforeseen circumstance).

My personal take is that you have to experience it personally in order for the idea to truly register. Words of advice from a Guru or a book won't convince you. You have to be regular for maybe 6 months or longer, have it well established, and then miss it. Then you know. It's something like hunger ... or missing a close relative who's off at college. You just get this need to do sadhana. Not really a rational feeling, more intuitive.

This happened to me again recently, and further demonstrated it. I've been regular for maybe 8 years now, and I had a medical situation (mild heart attack) where the hospital was home for 3 nights. Boy, did I miss sitting in front of Ganesha.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
02 October 2014, 11:38 AM
Namaste EM,


I had a medical situation (mild heart attack) where the hospital was home for 3 nights.

Hope the situation is under control and you are feeling better.

Pranam.

Viraja
02 October 2014, 11:58 AM
Vannakkam Viraja: We bathe daily, brush teeth daily, eat daily, chat with our loved ones daily. All this replenishes our physical and emotional bodies and spirits.

The spiritual body needs replenishing too. It's soul maintenance. Many can probably feel the difference, especially if they become habitual, and then for some reason miss it. (illness, travel, other unforeseen circumstance).

My personal take is that you have to experience it personally in order for the idea to truly register. Words of advice from a Guru or a book won't convince you. You have to be regular for maybe 6 months or longer, have it well established, and then miss it. Then you know. It's something like hunger ... or missing a close relative who's off at college. You just get this need to do sadhana. Not really a rational feeling, more intuitive.

This happened to me again recently, and further demonstrated it. I've been regular for maybe 8 years now, and I had a medical situation (mild heart attack) where the hospital was home for 3 nights. Boy, did I miss sitting in front of Ganesha.

Aum Namasivaya

Conveying my regards to you, just as Believer ji said, on hearing about your mild heart attack. Hope you feel better now, EM ji.

Speaking of daily sadhana, I agree with the feeling of 'missing' one's ishta. Besides, daily sadhana is the only means of cultivating closeness with one's ishta. If not, I will be swayed between this devata and that indecisively -- whereas taking to regular worship creates the feeling of 'ownership' as in 'MY devata' and makes you stand up for your cause if someone denigrates your deity. It makes you feel so close to your ishta that you feel without him you won't eat, without him, you cannot take decision and so forth. These are verily the steps that lead one towards a full-fledged form of bhakti. So these are my feelings towards worship every day. If only all of us let go of that little lazyness, we can uncover the true potential of our own bhakti! :)

Thanks for your views.

@Ram ji - Thanks for your views too, and for the quote from Ma Sharada Devi.

Eastern Mind
02 October 2014, 01:15 PM
Namaste EM,

Hope the situation is under control and you are feeling better.

Pranam.

Vannakkam: Thanks. It's all good. 3-4 weeks of little work, then I'm good to go. The technology on this stuff has improved dramatically.

@Viraja ... thanks as well. But regarding ishta, I'm a Saiva, so don't have an ishta in quite the same way as other philosophies would. I should have just said I missed my shrine room. :)

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
02 October 2014, 03:16 PM
Namaste Viraja,


......taking to regular worship creates the feeling of 'ownership' as in 'MY devata' and makes you stand up for your cause if someone denigrates your deity......
Please don't start thinking that 'any deity' needs 'your' protection. So, if someone does denigrate your deity, try to walk away from it, instead of creating an unpleasant situation in the forum. That will require more character than blowing off steam. Just a thought. And as you can see, every word you write in your posts is read and dissected. You are that important. :)

Be well.

Pranam.

Viraja
02 October 2014, 05:00 PM
Namaste Believer ji,

You have misunderstood what I said. I am talking about society at large -- the way our beloved Acharyas have stood against deity denigration against Muslim onslaught for instance. In recent times, I noticed that Hindu Jagruti committee does a good job of standing up against deity denigrations.

Regards,

Viraja

yajvan
02 October 2014, 06:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

For the window shopper weekly sādhana is fine.... just like going to the mall. Sometimes you buy , other times you are just looking in the windows.

As one develops over time, even daily sādhana will not serve ones purpose ; now the practice takes on greater import and attraction, so continuous practice becomes the means.

Then there comes a time when no practice is needed... this is the final destination.

iti śivaṁ

saswathy
02 October 2014, 11:00 PM
Dear friend ,
mind is wildest thing and it has to be controlled constantly , or else it goes astray .If Sadhana on various Gods is done expecting different boons or blessings from all of them the concentration gets diluted .If sadhana of one God is done also taking him or her as ishta devatha , mind very easily gets distracted if not done continuously. In fact a sadhaka has to do it nonstop in the mental sphere . It has to be like breathing .Like Prahalada said , while eating ,talking , drinking , and doing all the mundane things it has to go on . Then only one would get the protection of ishtadevatha. Single minded devotion , concentration , trust, surrender assures all support in all things , here and here after .Jnana yoga , hatha yoga , Raja yoga are rather difficult and allpeople can't do them easily . Bhakthi yoga is the easiest and very simple .That requires constant and uninterrupted nama parayana or manthra japa .

LightofOm
03 October 2014, 02:27 AM
Namaste,

I think daily sadhana is a must for anybody who is looking to make progress spiritually. I like what Eastern Mind said about brushing our teeth and bathing; I thought that was a good analogy for this particular subject. We practice daily sadhana to replenish our spiritual health and remain pure, just like we practice maintaining daily hygiene to keep us clean. However, it goes even further than this. Yoga is not something that is simply practiced for thirty minutes each morning; yoga is a lifestyle. We should take our practice into every area of our life. Whether it be work, school, social activities, daily chores, family relations, etc., our practice should always be with us. In this way, all our activities become a form of meditation and therefore all our activities become purified. In this way, we transcend the mundane life and enter into a life full of meaning and purpose.

The Bhagavata Purana candidly states:
"Anyone whose work is not meant to elevate him to religious life, anyone whose religious ritualistic performances do not raise him to renunciation, and anyone situated in renunciation that does not lead him to devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, must be considered dead, although he is breathing."

-SB 3.23.56

May all our activities become a form of service unto the Supreme.

Hari Om Tat Sat

Love and Light,
LightofOm

Viraja
03 October 2014, 01:13 PM
Great advice, Yajvan ji and Saswathy ji. Thank you.

I had forgotten all about continuous nama japa (because I am not doing it :) ). Various saints and modern day upanyasakas have stressed the importance of continuous nama japa enough. It is said nama japa is the only way to quick emancipation in kali-yuga. Thanks for reminding about it.

Anirudh
03 October 2014, 06:15 PM
Namaste Viraja ji,

I was pondering upon the questions and upon the views shared.

I think your post has two questions...

1) The distance felt by Sadhak between his Istha Devata and himself, is temporary, if that particular Devata was his true Istha Devata.

We meet many in our life time, among them few become very close, after a while even if we loose contacts and maintain no connection at all for the few decades, will be able to experience the same level attachment when we meet again accidentally. Likewise bonding between Istha Devata and the devotee doesn't need any kind of daily Sadhana. Its like Thoppul Kodi Uravu ( Umbilical cord) .

2) Sadhana is vital to lead a harmonious life and also for our own spritual progress. Roughly its like a LIC policy to fall back in this dangerous unpredictable Samsara (wordly life). Uncertainty is like the CHANGE that doesn't Change. Mode of payment of your premium amount decides your ability to face uncertainty .

If you had opted "daily" mode to pay your premium, time spent to earn that money will be less. You wont even feel that you made any effort.

In the Daily Sadhana mode of payment, you won't burdened with a guilty feeling that your quarterly or yearly due is round the corner and you haven't saved enough.

In the daily mode, even if you lost the ability to pay your premium, you won't be burdened when you start it again. I mean the due will be less.

Time needed for the Sadhana also depends on the type LIC policy.

I have considered only one life period in the entire discussion. A talk on multiple births and accrued Karma is a complicate subject. We don't have the complete information on the accrued Karma.

I realized that Vedic Astrology is one study that "can" help us to evaluate the accrued Karma because the Jivatma selects the womb and there by the environment for its rest of life.

Now one may find #1) and #2) are contradicting. Whether we do Sadhana or not, someday after millions of birth our destination is the same lotus feet of Sreeman Naaraayan.

yajvan
10 October 2014, 08:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté




As one develops over time, even daily sādhana will not serve ones purpose ; now the practice takes on greater import and attraction, so continuous practice becomes the means.



...yajvan, interesting words, but from where do they come ?

We find this in the śiva sutra-s, 2nd chapter considered śāktopāya; it simply says this:

prayatnaḥ sādhakaḥ || 2.2


prayatna =continued exertion; with great care; diligently , carefully
sādhaka = an adept; adapted to a purpose; in this case the purpose is sādhana or that which leads straight to the goal.


iti śivaṁ

markandeya 108 dasa
17 October 2014, 08:02 AM
Pranams,

Sadhana is such a wonderful thing, for me the best translation to keep it simple is "practice". We can either practice conciously towards a goal, or practice unconciously and be pulled and swept about by maya. Good sadhana espcially at the start is a little bit like swimming up stream or against the current, but the further one goes against the stream the muscles build stronger and the swimming becomes easier. There are so many sadhanas, the sadhana of eating, sleeping, different sadhanas for meditation practice, for arati, worship, sadhana for body yoga, sadhana of yama and niyama, once sadhana is fully understood it becomes a flexible system to every aspect of life, a practicing of development to reach the spontaneous stage using all of our human ability in the right way.

Even within the goals and aspirations of non spiritual sadhanas, like great sports hero's, martial art experts, top scientists, politicians and musicians all done specific sadhana to get to their goals, all by some hard work and many hours of practice

I found this web page yesterday about Nishkam Karma, what was interesting to me is that even such a high level of yoga can be practiced in the normal material society within business and normal daily life. In fact material life is only mundane based on how we see it and what is our action and developed practice in this world and human life. Sadhana is within all of life, and the better our practice the more benefit and closer to the spontaneous state we will be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishkam_Karma

Ys

Md

Webimpulse
17 October 2014, 10:53 PM
Namaste all,

I know daily sadhana is very important. Yet I find it exceptionally difficult to do for reasons I can't fathom. I can practice daily sadhana for a few days at a time at best. Then I always slip up.

It's like there's this mental block that throws up mental obstacles for doing sadhana. I might feel too tired, or it might seem like a chore that day, or I'm doing something that makes me forget, or whatever. I'm not sure how to overcome it.

I'm not trying to derail the thread, but I really could use some advice on how to get my mind to actually get this sadhana done. I know the simplest answer is just do it, but if it were that easy I'd be doing it! :(

markandeya 108 dasa
18 October 2014, 03:34 AM
Pranams Webimpulse

Sadhana is never easy and depends on tapa or some sort of voluntary acceptance of discomfort, like rising early in the morning and doing some disciplined practice. Its also important to understand what is the purpose of sadhana, its a discipline that eventually leads to spontaneity, so we need some patience :)

To keep doing the same type of practice everyday is very tough and requires some training and persistence with an attitude of determination. But it is wise never to be to hard on yourself, spiritual life and the practice of sadhana is not our enemy, if at first we do not succeed try try again, and on each trying the results gained from previous sadhana stays with us and we grow all the time, this is also backed up i n Gita where krsna says what advancements are made in yoga are never lost, even if one temporarily fails from the path of yoga. Sadahana is all auspicious and a blessing to the human form, so there is no such thing as failure.

There will be many types of advise, one that has helped me is to be in an environment where others are practicing, the group energy can help the individual get regulated in his sadhana. That is one way. Another way is to constantly associate with spiritual and dharmic subjects, read, listen and generally keep as much time as possible with some focus on the spiritual practice that inspires you, at some point you will want to increase the sadhana because you will understand the benefits of it and will be spurred on and able to handle the early problems of being regulated in sadhana.

Another good tip is the practice of reflecting our conscious awareness. How do we feel after we have done some sadhana and how do we feel when we have no sadhana, do we feel better by doing certain practice, wake up early, do some arti, some japa, some study, some meditation and some asana, and how do we feel if we wake up late, rush in the morning, drink lots of coffee and generally go through the day like a bull in a china shop. So we can reflect if sadhana gives us benefit and if a life of no sadhana or lack of present awareness in life gives us any fruit and happiness.

In Gita Krsna urges Arjuna to not give up, we can fail and have questions and feel exhausted, Arjuna also had his problems and wanted to give up but he was advised with the Love shown for him by Krsna to give up avidya ignorance and be strong and just carry on with knowledge and determination and everything will be good.

I hope this helps

Ys

Md

Viraja
18 October 2014, 04:14 PM
Namaste all,

I know daily sadhana is very important. Yet I find it exceptionally difficult to do for reasons I can't fathom. I can practice daily sadhana for a few days at a time at best. Then I always slip up.

It's like there's this mental block that throws up mental obstacles for doing sadhana. I might feel too tired, or it might seem like a chore that day, or I'm doing something that makes me forget, or whatever. I'm not sure how to overcome it.

I'm not trying to derail the thread, but I really could use some advice on how to get my mind to actually get this sadhana done. I know the simplest answer is just do it, but if it were that easy I'd be doing it! :(

Dear Web,

MD has given you good advice.

I would just like to ask you, how about doing sadhana for just 20 min a day? And doing your favorite activity -- for example, if you find chanting boring, you might try doing Abhishekam and this might make it seem more appealing to you? Even just 20 min a day, like exercise, builds up -- it is 1 hr 20 min a week!

Cheers,

Viraja

silence_speaks
19 October 2014, 02:17 PM
Namasthe!

A more important and valid question is "For whom is Sadhana important".

A person is running away from a shadow , taking it to be a ghost!
A bypasser saw it and said "Friend, its only a shadow".
if he sees it there and then, no sadhana is needed.

if he cannot see it, he says "but when i go near, it seems to open its mouth " [the shadow of a tree] ... then the friendly adviser would say "Dont worry, take this stick ... go near it ... see if it will gobble you" .... this process of holding a stick and going near the shadow ... why is it needed ?

For whom is it needed ?

Love!
Silence

Viraja
19 October 2014, 02:58 PM
Namasthe!

A more important and valid question is "For whom is Sadhana important".

A person is running away from a shadow , taking it to be a ghost!
A bypasser saw it and said "Friend, its only a shadow".
if he sees it there and then, no sadhana is needed.

if he cannot see it, he says "but when i go near, it seems to open its mouth " [the shadow of a tree] ... then the friendly adviser would say "Dont worry, take this stick ... go near it ... see if it will gobble you" .... this process of holding a stick and going near the shadow ... why is it needed ?

For whom is it needed ?

Love!
Silence

Dear Silence,

I don't understand the above. With me, you have to talk like talking to a little child to make things understood... may I ask you to simplify the philosophical teaching in your message? :)

saswathy
19 October 2014, 10:35 PM
Dear friends ,
sadhana is for controlling the mind . In the initial stages it makes the mind disciplined .As it progresses sadhana becomes a part of the breath.Here by sadhana I do not mean exactly daily ritual of puja , or reciting of sthothras ( though it is not unimportant). It is contemplation on 'om'. OM is the mahamanthra There is no need to spend hours and hours . We can do that for 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes before going to bed . Sadhana gives chittha shuddhi .

silence_speaks
19 October 2014, 11:55 PM
Dear Viraja ji,
:) Namasthe!
Please read my post again.

To remain clam and relaxed is the aim of all sadhana.
when you ask "why is daily sadhana important", it is because I am not calm, i have become "agitated". So i need a sadhana to make myself calm.

why am i agitated ... i used an allegory ... i am haunted by a "shadow" which I have taken to be a ghost.

so ... when i am agitated, its like running away from a shadow-ghost!

I hope the story is clear with this.

now please ponder and tell me ... what is this shadow-ghost ??

Love!
Silence

Viraja
20 October 2014, 08:18 AM
now please ponder and tell me ... what is this shadow-ghost ??


Dear Silence,

The shadow-ghose would be, our own 'Vasanas' - the karmic imprints that pushes us to experience any event in some particular way unique to us and react accordingly!

Am I right?

Regards,

Viraja

yajvan
20 October 2014, 07:34 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

I have read many of the posts above. It seems there is a 'one size fits all' approach to this sādhana. This is not the case.

Some have said no sādhana is needed. This is true for the proper adhikārī¹. Some say daily practice; some say a little practice and some say a lot of practice is needed. This all depends on the native in question. Some require lots of support , some a little , and some none at all.

Some of these ~ways~ (upāya-s) have been reviewed here:
Please consider this HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=13352&page=2 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=13352&page=2) , post 14 and 16)

iti śivaṁ

words

adhikārī is that person with adhīkāra or with capability and with adhikāra or rank or office
sādhana -any means of effecting or accomplishing , any agent or instrument ; a utensil or apparatus; a means, method, or approach.

silence_speaks
21 October 2014, 01:49 AM
Dear Silence,

The shadow-ghose would be, our own 'Vasanas' - the karmic imprints that pushes us to experience any event in some particular way unique to us and react accordingly!

Am I right?

Regards,

Viraja

Dear Viraja ji,
:) You are very close.

The shadow is what we see ... what we perceive. I would say mind itself.
Ghost is what is made out of it by our vasanas.
so...
as long as the tendency to convert a simple shadow into ghost is there --- sadhanas are needed.

Love!
Silence

Eastern Mind
21 October 2014, 08:39 AM
Vannakkam:

I'm going to offer up an opinion that is different than what some have been expressing here, in regard to the idea that at some point sadhana is no longer necessary.

Our sages, even after realising the Self within, still meditate, still enter samadhi, still do pujas. This idea of an end point in sadhana comes from somewhere, but not all of us subscribe to it. I personally think it's a 'dangerous' idea and may well limit the devotee from progress if they make an intellectual mistake that they're done. I've seen and heard a few people who thought that first introductory initial mystical experience was enlightenment, and than just up and stopped, foolishly thinking they had come to the end of the path, even making bold proclamations of it, form the perspective of the little ego 'i'.

Gurus who become teachers meditate with their students, and the effects of them entering samadhi can be felt by all. They still make the effort. "You realise the Self, then a dau later, realsie it all over again, etc."

Samadhi is a state to be entered over and over again. Not only this, but the qualified teacher knows full well that He is an example to others. If he stops meditating, stops striving, then there is the risk that his devotees do as well. Then what ... a bunch of people sitting around discussing it all from an intellectual perspective.

Sadly, I read somewhere that this is what has happened at Ramanashram at the foot of Arunachala ... a place where nostalgia about the old days is heard everywhere, but where nobody actually sits and meditates.

Just offering up an alternative view, not trying to start an argument.

Aum Namasivaya

silence_speaks
21 October 2014, 11:22 AM
Dear Eastern Mind ji,
:) Namasthe!

Yes, Sadhana is very important for all of us. But Sadhana proceeds naturally once one gains a certain maturity or knowledge. One does not intentionally do ... it happens naturally.

Sitting, standing, walking, talking... in all activities ... one revels as Self. I call it living in meditation. Life itself is meditation. Constant reveling as Self.

It is not extraordinary ... but it is very difficult to reach with mere practice alone. When Knowledge or the Vision of Scriptures is well appreciated , it becomes natural and very easy. Without that it is almost impossible.

So if one can find a good teacher ... and learn from such a person it will become so natural that you will revel in it 24 7.

Yoga Vasishta speaks about 4 gatekeepers to liberated living ... one should get the basics right and get friendly with these 4 gate keepers and ur sadhana becomes very very natural. Here is the list:
1. Self Inquiry, based on scriptural reasoning.
2. Vairagya, or dispassion.
3. Satsangha or company of holy [people who can reveal the truth]
4. Satisfaction

if one can gain the company of these, within no time, it becomes natural.

Love!
Silence

yajvan
21 October 2014, 01:04 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Yoga Vasishta speaks about 4 gatekeepers to liberated living ... one should get the basics right and get friendly with these 4 gate keepers and ur sadhana becomes very very natural. Here is the list:
1. Self Inquiry, based on scriptural reasoning.
2. Vairagya, or dispassion.
3. Satsangha or company of holy [people who can reveal the truth]
4. Satisfaction


If I may, I'd like to offer a view to the 4 that is mentioned in the Yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa, is also known as the Yoga Vasișțha, or Vasișțha's Yoga.

Vasișțha's yoga is the conversation of vasișțha-ji (and other saints) with Śrī rāmaḥ ; a great work for the sādhu and sadhvī¹ to advance one's sādhana by knowledge and insight; offering a spiritual view of the world around you.

This work is for the person with an eye and motivation to spiritual enquiry (vicāra).

Vasișțha-ji says it this way - the eye of spiritual enquiry (vicāra) does not lose its sight even in the midst of all activities.
Yet what is this enquiry? He says, one ponders and is compelled by questions of Who am I¹? How has this saṃsāra (repetition of birth and rebirth) come into being? It is the light of enquiry that there is realization of the eternal and unchanging Reality, this is the Supreme.

Is this the only thing? No, as vasișțha-ji also mentions self-control, contentment and satsaṅg as the other 'gatekeepers' that stand at the door of mokṣa. We can review these at a later date.

It is my good fortune to have encountered this book some years ago that has been translated by svāmī veṅkaṭeśānanda whose writing/translation ability IMHO is superb. It is divided into 6 sections or prakaraṇa¹

iti śivaṁ

words

sādhu and sadhvī - male and female person practicing sādhana
Who am I ? We could also write it like this, who or what is this 'I' ? The Who am I has little to do with being a butcher, student, homeowner, housewife, manager, runner, football player, citizen, and the like.
The 6 prakaraṇa-s
vairāgya prakaraṇaṃ - vairāgya is typically coined as 'dispassion' but aligns to indifference to worldly objects ; a sort of disdain grows over time ( I find this to be true)
mumukṣu prakaraṇaṃ - mumukṣu is a seeker with the burning desire for kaivala or mokṣa (liberation)
Utpatti prakaraṇaṃ - utpatti is creation, origination, generation, ~creation ~
sthiti prakaraṇaṃ (sthā - to stand) sthiti a state or condition, ~ existence ~
upaśānti prakaraṇaṃ - upāsana is the act of throwing off; upaśānti is cessation , intermission , remission ~dissolution ~
nirvāṇa prakaraṇaṃ - nirvāṇa = 'nir' meaning out + 'vā' ( as in vāyu) is to blow. What is one blowing out? The cycle of birth and death, ignorance. The extinction ( blowing out) of all impressions. If we were talking the yoga sutras of Patañjali, samādhi-pāda, 2nd sutra¹, this would be called citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ or the cessation/stilling of all mental activities.

silence_speaks
21 October 2014, 10:51 PM
Dear Yajvan ji,
:) Namasthe!



It is my good fortune to have encountered this book some years ago that has been translated by svāmī veṅkaṭeśānanda whose writing/translation ability IMHO is superb. It is divided into 6 sections or prakaraṇa¹


I fully agree on this. Infact, Yoga Vasishta itself says :

अस्मिन् श्रुते मते ज्ञाते तपोध्यानजपादिकम्।
मोक्षप्राप्तौ नरस्येह न किञ्चिदुपयुज्यते॥

There is no need for any spiritual practise such as austerity , meditation , japa and the like for the moksha of the aspirant who has got this scripture in mind (through sravana-manana-nidhidhyasanam)

such is the glory of this text !! Just by studying it again and again and repeatedly reflecting on its teachings -- liberated living becomes totally natural and obvious.

LightofOm
07 November 2014, 07:23 PM
There is no need for any spiritual practise such as austerity , meditation , japa and the like for the moksha of the aspirant who has got this scripture in mind (through sravana-manana-nidhidhyasanam)

Namaste,

If I may, I would like to kindly and peacefully add some input here.

For me, the practice of austerity, meditation, japa, etc. is the means by which I eradicate sin in my life and come closer to oneness with God. I believe that the process of rigorously practicing the aforementioned is what brings us out of material contamination and into union with the Divine. I think that until you are perfect in every way, you still have to perform sadhana.

I just find it pretentious and slothful to say, "Oh, I don't do the actual practice, I'm already enlightened, therefore I don't need to do that kind of thing." Are you claiming that you have full knowledge and full renunciation and are completely free of sin? I've never heard any reputable guru say that he has stopped meditating because it is "no longer needed". If I heard some "teacher" claiming such things I would immediately chalk him up to be a phony.

I also find it interesting that most of the images of Shiva depict him in a meditative posture. So it appears that even the perfected beings practice sadhana (even if it is just a show of example for what we humans should do).

Once again, this is just my personal opinion and I by no means believe it to be the final word. However, I did feel that I needed to say something, because the idea of a human claiming perfection and saying that sadhana is no longer needed seems fishy to me.

But...in the end, to each his own. If it works for you, then by all means, keep doing it.

Peace, Love, Harmony and Light to All

Om Namah Shivaya

LightofOm

silence_speaks
10 November 2014, 11:52 PM
Dear LightofOm,
:) Please do not worry about that statement... ignore it.
Its not for everyone. I have quoted a statement from Yoga Vasishta, not my own statement and it is not for all...

It is for someone who has got "Yoga Vasishta" in mind :)

To my knowledge I am yet to find anyone in this forum who is ready to own that up. It belongs to a different category. Many people are contended to settle for the lower ideas and I realize that one should never disturb.

YV (Yoga Vasishta) says something ... for people who want to give it a try... most people dont want to ... so it wont apply to them.

Hence please ignore that, and excuse me for not stating this explicitly.

Love!
Silence

yajvan
11 November 2014, 05:46 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

if one walks away from the yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa (yoga vasișțha) thinking this is the main message:


There is no need for any spiritual practise such as austerity , meditation , japa and the like for the moksha of the aspirant who has got this scripture in mind (through sravana-manana-nidhidhyasanam)
then one has passed up a wealth of knowledge that is offered there. Let me offer just one ( as I am happy to offer many more)¹ sample ~lesson~ :
hastaṁ hastena saṁpīḍya
santairdantāṁśca pīḍyam |
aṅgānyaṅgairsamākramya
jaayedādau svakaṁ manaḥ ||

To avoid my meager translation of this śloka let's look to svāmī lakṣman-jū's view on this matter:
ball your fists, clench your teeth, and tense all of the muscles of your body, but conquer your mind ||

As I see it the yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa is a vast ocean of knowledge; IMHO it is on par with the mahābhārata in terms of its weight ( guru¹).

iti śivaṁ

guru - heavy , weighty (as opposed to laghú)
more of the yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa can be found within this HDF string: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4976

yajvan
11 November 2014, 09:01 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Its not for everyone.
It is for someone who has got "Yoga Vasishta" in mind


Who then is this yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa (yoga vasișțha) for ? We take our support from the same book, the section called upaśānti prakaraṇaṃ¹ ( 5.14) .
Śrī rāmaḥ is told by vasișțha-ji, my teachings are not meant for those O'rāmaḥ whose intelligence has ben silenced by the firm faith in the reality of this (illusory) world and the consequent striving for the pleasures of this world. Who will strive to educate that man whose nose has been eaten away by leprosy the delicate art of distinguishing different perfumes ?

So, what is vasișțha-ji saying ? This book ( of no less then 32,000 verses) will fall on deaf ears of those that don't know that they do not know. It is for those that are beginning to wake up. It is my humble opinion that HDF has this native within its group; those that are beginning to wake up. This book will serve them well. Perhaps not on the 1st read, but within their interest over time to come and appreciate the wisdom in this book.

iti śivaṁ

1. upaśānti prakaraṇaṃ - upāsana is the act of throwing off; upaśānti is cessation , intermission , remission ~dissolution ~

silence_speaks
11 November 2014, 11:47 PM
Dear Yajvan ji,
:)

Suppose a poet presents a picture ... who can benefit from it ? Who ever is ready to "See" through the eyes of the poet. It is people's readiness to see thus that makes them eligible. If i do not see through the eyes of the poet ... i will not be able to benefit from them. It is more about readiness to see, in my view.

For example ... Bhaja Govindam says that look at the body of a women (or man) as made of flesh and other unagree-able things again and again. A person, if he wants to remain attached to women's body ... would never see through the eyes of Shankara. If he sees, he would eventually loose interest !

Yoga Vasishta presents that the world is totally a dream... there can be a million reasons to not see as is shown... someone may be attached to "Dharma" [karma portion] ... or someone may be attached to some forms of Bhakti [lower ... forms, where i want to invoke God etc]...someone else wants to "Experience Something" ... so they "Do not want to" see the world as a dream. When YV says that all experiences and all activities are like dreams ... they cannot accept !

Let me illustrate with a simple example:



इदँ प्रपञ्चँ यत् किञ्चित् यः शृणोति च पश्यति।
दृश्यरूपँ च दृग्रूपँ सर्वँ शशविषाणवत्॥

Whatever traces of this world one hears or one sees of it, the form that is seen and the form of seer are all like horns of a hare
This is from Ribhu Gita, as it is. Please tell me now ... are you ready to look at the world like this ... yes or no ? ... if you have to say : "its ok , but ...." or "its not to be taken as it is ...." etc ... it just goes to prove that one is not ready! If one is not ready to see with that vision ... one is not yet eligible for that ! Not because of some "Spiritual Level" ... but because they are not ready to accept what the scripture states !

And to a person who revels in such a vision... does japa, tapa, puja etc mean anything ?



Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
11 November 2014, 11:49 PM
BTW ... a person who has got this scripture in mind through sravana manana , nidhidhyasana is already reveling as Self ... of what use is japa tapa etc for such a person ? :)



manaHprakalpite bhagne hR^idi vistiirNapattane |
vR^iddhi.N cotpanaate bruuhi ki.N vR^iddha.N kasya ki.N xatam ||
मनःप्रकल्पिते भग्ने हृदि विस्तीर्णपत्तने।
वृद्धिँ चोत्पनाते ब्रूहि किँ वृद्धँ कस्य किँ क्षतम्॥
A huge state imagined in one's own heart by the mind, whether it gets destroyed or prospers what is the big deal about it ?

If a person is reveling with this vision ... do you go and tell him to do some japa ? You must be kidding, if you do so !!

markandeya 108 dasa
12 November 2014, 06:14 AM
Pranams,

I read this recently and I thought maybe it can be of some benefit.


Love of Krishna is locked up in the heart of the living entity, but to access it, we need to know the combinations….
The Combinations to the Safe (those combinations that help us to be spiritually safe) Part 1
The Agni and the Ecstasy
On route to achieving higher states of devotional consciousness, and just by the nature of life itself, we all stand to face challenges and tests. Those tests we don’t pass don’t pass us. They simply re-enter our lives at a different point until we learn from and ultimately transcend them. Challenges always test our resilience, ability to let go of negative mindsets or disappointing situations. They often also test our ability to forgive. Forgiveness happens in a deep way when we are able to digest and truly grow through the hard times.
In Ayurveda, it’s explained that just as there is a fire of digestion that allows one to digest food, there is also a fire of digestion within the mind that allows one to digest difficult or traumatic experiences. This fire is called Sadhaka Agni. Not everyone is born with the same strength of Sadhaka Agni, and for this reason, irrespective of the magnitude of the difficulties we go through, different people are able to digest challenges and disappointments more healthily, swiftly and positively than others. How do we develop our ability to come through challenges and traumatic experiences in ways that are truly and deeply strong, healthy and constructive? How do we avoid holding onto bitterness and prevent ourselves from allowing the entire nature of our lives to be defined by those negative experiences?
The different internal and external challenges life throws at us needn’t be a problem because we always have the ability to make ourselves internally stronger. We always have the ability to use whatever has happened for our growth and development.


According to Ayurveda, emotional imbalances are due to our inability to process or digest emotions in a timely way. When someone is genuinely able to digest negative emotions quickly, they are able to let them go and move on with their lives in a progressive way. If we have trouble digesting such emotions, it’s like the food of our experience not digesting or digesting very slowly, which can then create mental toxins such as depression. This is due to the negative impressions remaining in our minds and effecting our current emotions and thoughts.


A person with strong Sadhaka Agni will have the memory of the negative experience but it will no longer affect them. They will think “That negative experience happened but I am a different person now.” She processes the experience quickly. Due to our past life, some of us are born with strong Sadhaka Agni, some with weak Sadhaka Agni and some with variable Sadhaka Agni. The good news is that we can strengthen our Sadhaka Agni by the way we live and associate. Honouring prasadam properly, living more naturally, surrounding ourselves with supportive people and avoiding unnecessarily negative or envious association all increase our Sadhaka Agni. Deeply imbibing and practicing spiritual knowledge by the regular study of Shastric books greatly and deeply increases and strengthens our Sadhaka Agni. If such study is done attentively and regularly, it’s like fanning a spark and increasing that spark until it becomes an inferno that burns to ashes the toxins of negative impressions.
“As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities” Bhagavad Gita 4.37
In the purport, Prabhupada writes as follows:


Perfect knowledge of self and Superself and of their relationship is compared herein to fire…There are many stages of reaction…but knowledge of the constitutional position of the living entity burns everything to ashes. When one is in complete knowledge, all reactions, both a priori and a posteriori, are consumed…
A sign of low Sadhaka Agni can be weak power of discrimination. By study of sastra, subtle effects take place within the consciousness providing depth and sharpness of judgement and evaluation, based upon real and eternal principles. The inability to sit quietly without feeling restless can also be a sign of weak Sadhaka Agni. Procrastination, lack of endurance or perseverance, inability to keep commitments or fulfil ones daily duties can also signify weak Sadhaka Agni.
If we lose control of our emotions and thoughts, this can eventually degrade into losing control of our actions. The more one practices Krishna Consciousness in the mode of goodness, the more one naturally strengthens and invokes the Sadhaka Agni.


Additional tips for strengthening the Sadhaka Agni
1. Sleep before ten pm whenever possible (Some people work shifts) or even earlier because before 10 pm is the kapha period, and sleeping at that time gives restorative sleep. After 10 pm, the pitta period comes which doesn’t give the same quality of regeneration because sleep is then more likely to be restless.
2. Rising early has a subtle effect on the mind, and imbibes more goodness into it, helping it to be more positive and balanced. Try to maximize the mode of goodness hours in your life. From 2am-10am is goodness, 10-6pm is passion. 6pm to 2am is ignorance. The Vedic kings would maximize their time in goodness and use this for sadhana and planning the day. They would use the period of passion for execution, and the period of ignorance for relaxation, socializing and sleep. Sleeping during the late morning, after 6am can make the mind dull as it can cause blocks within the subtle channels known as the shrotas.
3. Daily exercise helps move negative emotions out of the body and increases the Agni so it is very useful and progressive to include this in your schedule.
4. Try to have a bowel movement each morning, drink plenty of water and eat your meals at around the same time. The midday meal should be between 12-2pm when the Agni in the stomach is strongest.
5. Try to eat foods that are more natural and unprocessed. These foods are more quickly digested by the body and create an energy called ojas, which gives stable emotions and good health.
6. Avoid junk food, as these create ama or toxins in the body and weaken the Sadhaka Agni. They allow negative emotions to be stored in the body rather than released from it.
7. Practice positive behaviours. These are called Acharya rasayanas, or behavioural rasayanas. The Charaka Samhita says that by the regular practice of these behaviours, one will gain in overall health and wellbeing. They include being truthful, sweet in speech, calm, clean, charitable, respectful to seniors (such as teachers, parents, elders), loving and balanced, humble, self controlled, positive, and devoted to study of sastra.
8. Associate and surround yourself with positive loving people who support you and encourage you to live in the mode of goodness. Create a loving environment around yourself in this way. The Charaka Samhita says that good company means company of those mature in wisdom, patient, mature in sadhana, understanding of human nature, well behaved, peaceful and who advocate right action and conduct. The same text encourages the avoidance of those who are negative in thought, conduct and speech, argumentative, lacking in compassion, regularly speak ill of others, cruel, greedy, envious of the prosperity of others, those who speak sarcastically and those who do not live virtuously.
Note: after birth, the fire of digestion for women goes very low, and so can lead to fluctuating emotions, anxiety or depression. Emotional support is important for us all throughout our lives, but after childbirth, it is considered especially important as it enhances metabolism and Sadhaka Agni at the same time.


Child hood is a time of life when one naturally takes a while to process thoughts and feelings. At the same time, children are naturally inquisitive, open and enthusiastic to learn. Therefore they require time, affection and attention. If parents do not spend time with their children and answer their questions, the heart of the child becomes emotionally dissatisfied, and this can make them more prone to emotional imbalances in life.


Ys


Md

yajvan
12 November 2014, 03:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Yoga Vasishta presents that the world is totally a dream... there can be a million reasons to not see as is shown... someone may be attached to "Dharma" [karma portion] ... or someone may be attached to some forms of Bhakti [lower ... forms, where i want to invoke God etc]...someone else wants to "Experience Something" ... so they "Do not want to" see the world as a dream. When YV says that all experiences and all activities are like dreams ... they cannot accept !

Let me illustrate with a simple example:

This is from Ribhu Gita, as it is. Please tell me now ... are you ready to look at the world like this ... yes or no ? ... if you have to say : "its ok , but ...." or "its not to be taken as it is ...." etc ... it just goes to prove that one is not ready! If one is not ready to see with that vision ... one is not yet eligible for that ! Not because of some "Spiritual Level" ... but because they are not ready to accept what the scripture states !


It seems from what you write that choosing to look at the world as wholeness or from your vantage point as a dream is an intellectual choice. While this is mildly interesting, it is like saying I am a king, yet I have no kingdom nor the riches to back up the claim.
So, with that frame of mind one may say oh yes all this is a dream, an illusion - or this is all māyā ( very in vogue and fashionable to say). One can say this with confidence because it comes from the śāstra-s. Yet is it one's direct personal experience ? Intellectual understanding is the beginning - the direct personal experience confirms this understanding. Even the yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa offers this within the very first story of śukadeva, vedavyāsa’s son. So this is where ( I think) we differ and I am fine with that condition.

And your other post that begins with BTW and ends with 'are you kidding ? ' . I do not have the slightest idea of what you are offering. Also note that I am not asking for any re-statement or clarification. I only answer due to the comment that you are asking ' are you kidding'.

iti śivaṁ

silence_speaks
12 November 2014, 10:37 PM
Dear Yajvan ji,
:)



it is like saying I am a king, yet I have no kingdom nor the riches to back up the claim.
...
Yet is it one's direct personal experience ? Intellectual understanding is the beginning - the direct personal experience confirms this understanding.


:) The kingdom is ever yours ... its waiting for you to be claimed ! But if we choose to ignore it and keep repeating that I do not have a kingdom !

Annamalai Swami says : [Please read this carefully]



Q: I know that listening to the Guru and believing his words is important. When he says, 'You are the Self. The world is not real," and so on, I can accept that what he says is true, but my belief in the truth of those words does not seem to make it my experience.


Annamalai Swami: You must believe the Guru and you must also believe your own experience because the Guru is not telling you to add another belief to your mind. He is instead telling you to look at your own experience of yourself, and in doing so, disregard everything else.


There is a story that Ram Tirtha used to tell. A man who was a little mad lived in a small village with his wife. His friends liked to tease him and make fun of him because they all thought he was stupid.


One day, one of them said, 'We have some bad news for you. Your wife has become a widow.'


He believed them and started crying out in grief, 'My wife has become a widow! My wife has become a widow!'


Some of the people he passed on the street laughed at him and said, 'Why are you mourning? You are very much alive. How can your wife be a widow if you yourself are alive to complain about it?'


'My closest friends have told me this,' he replied, 'and I trust them. They are very reliable people. If they are saying that my wife has become a widow, it must be true.'


We would think that a man who behaved like this was utterly stupid because he chose to believe the words of others instead of his own experience. But are we any better? We believe, on the basis of indirect information provided by the senses, that we are the body. The experience of 'I am', of the Self, is present in all of us, but when the mischievous senses gang up on us and try to make us believe something that is patently untrue, we believe them and ignore our direct experience.


Then we grieve about our state, lamenting, 'I am bound; I am unenlightened; I am not free'.


And even when the Guru comes along and says, 'You are the Self. You are free. Why do you insist on believing this misinformation that the mischievous senses are giving you?' still you do not believe the truth.


You tell him, "The senses have always given me reliable information in the past. I have learned to trust them. What they tell me must be true.'


And so you go on grieving and complaining, even when your direct experience and the words of the Guru agree with each other and reveal the truth.


~ Annamalai Swami, Final Talks, edited by David Godman





So, with that frame of mind one may say oh yes all this is a dream, an illusion - or this is all māyā ( very in vogue and fashionable to say)


People who speak thus without understanding can be easily spotted from their lack of clarity -- provided one has the vision of the Truth. But I would still advice them to continue treating the world as a dream.

Infact if instead of saying "this is dream", one looks at life through the eyes of Vasishta, as expressed by Vasishta, one discovers liberation here and now. People can go on ... ad infinitum ... saying I am bound ! But one who seriously intends to see oneself as liberated, should look from the eyes of Yoga Vasishta!




And your other post that begins with BTW and ends with 'are you kidding ? ' . I do not have the slightest idea of what you are offering. Also note that I am not asking for any re-statement or clarification. I only answer due to the comment that you are asking ' are you kidding'.


Why are you not asking me for clarification ? What if what I wrote there has something valuable ? I was not sarcastic - even if i am, there will be a point there. Coz i never question people, i question or discuss ideas ! I was pointing at something, which you claim to have missed ... and over and above that "I do not need you to say what it is " ?! Are we open Yajvan ji ? we are discussing ideas... we can ask for clarifications , and have an open discussion.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
12 November 2014, 10:41 PM
Dear Yajvan ji,
:)

Here is one more from Annamalai Swami [Annamalai Swami is a direct disciple of Ramana Maharshi, a liberated person, whose teachings in the form of "Final Talks" are worth studying...]




Spiritual seekers have a very strange habit: they are always looking for a way to reach, attain,discover,experience, or realize the Self. They try many things because they cannot comprehend that they are already the Self. This is like running around looking for one's eyes with one's own eyes.

Why should you imagine that it is some new experience to be discovered or found ? You are the Self right now, and you are aware of it right now. Do you need a new experience to prove that you exist? The feeling "I am existing" is the Self. You pretend that you are not experiencing it, or cover it up with all kinds of false ideas, and then you run around looking for it as if it were something external to be reached or found. There is a story about someone like thus.

Once a king imagined that he was a poverty-striken peasant. He thought , "if I go and meet the king he may be able to help me by giving some money"
He searched for the king in many places but he could not find him anywhere. Ultimately he became very depressed because his search was not yeilding any results. One day he met a man on the road who asked him why he was so depressed.
He answered, " I am searching for the king. I think that he can solve all my problems and make me happy but I cant find him anywhere".
The man, who already recognized him, said with some astonishment, "But you yourself as the king!"
The king came to his senses and remembered who he was. His problems all ended the moment he remembered his real identity.
You may think that the king was fairly stupid but he had at least enough sense to recognize the truth when it was told to him.
The guru may tell his disciples a thousand times "You are the self, you are not what you imagine yourself to be", they all keep asking the guru for methods and routes to reach the place they are already are.

Seeker
13 November 2014, 01:20 PM
Namaste Silence Speaks Ji,

So far I have concluded , that the following steps are necessary for most of us.

Seeking - this where a person starts looking & searching for answers for relation between him/her and God.

Knowing - we gather knowledge & formulate a path in getting/finding what we seek. Based on our temperament , personality & stage in our journey (journey across many lives) , we gather knowledge thru scriptures , readings , satsangs , guru , contemplation , meditation etc..

Practicing - travel on the path that we formulated /we are taught . This is what I would refer as 'sadhana' - this is accumulation of spiritual assets that helps us to attain what we seek.

Realizing : With proper practice (I will add that with Guru's grace first) , reach the goal.

Invariably all of our saints have told us very consistently about markers that let us know where we are in the right path in our journey. They talk about siddhis (& several saints never use it - they just know that this is at their disposal) and have demonstrated some of them like bi-location , peering into past or future (as if time is not a dimension for them) , healing etc.. Ultimately they have also testified the great feeling of joy - constant communion - which they have valued above all.

From the knowledge I have gathered so far, I firmly believe that the Self & I are one and the same , but other than that knowledge , I am void of any experience. My believe does not make me a realized person. I think this what Yajvan Ji is stating in his post.

To get to the final destination , I need a guide & Sadhana.

Some exalted souls are born with awareness even when they are out of the womb. They wont go thru all these steps. For some others it hits like a bolt (like Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi) at some point in their life.

So - when I agree that I am the Self - at this point it is bookish knowledge for me. If I don’t realize it by way of sadhana , I simply accumulate more karmic debt and set myself up for more grind in rebirths.

silence_speaks
13 November 2014, 09:34 PM
Dear Seeker,
:) Namasthe!

If you "believe" that all those steps are needed ... you will need them !
I am not talking about such people ... i am talking, within the context of yoga vasishta, that there are people who have yoga vasishta in their mind ... which means who already look at the world as a dream ... and for such a one ... japa , tapas etc do not matter ! This is the claim of yoga vasishta!

Ashtavakra Gita says: Mukthabhimani muktho hi, baddho baddhabhimani api.

"A muktha abhimani, a person who has the conviction that he is muktha, free ... is free"
A Baddha abhimani ... a person who has the conviction that he is baddha, or bound is bound !

Ribhu Gita says : one should have firm conviction ... Drda nischayam eva atra, prathamam karanam bhavet... firm conviction alone becomes primary means to liberated living !!

As long as you keep it in the book ... it remains bookish. The moment you own that up ... and say "YES this is Me, about whom its talking" ... its you!!

Annamalai Swami says:

"You don't need methods to get rid of the wrong ideas you have about yourself. All you have to do is stop believing them. The best way to do this is to replace them with ideas that more accurately reflect the real state of affairs."


Love!
Silence

Eastern Mind
14 November 2014, 09:24 AM
So far I have concluded , that the following steps are necessary for most of us....



Vannakkam Seeker: I totally concur. In my view, the last thing anyone needs is to fall into the Advaita trap and think it's all done, so why do anything. Many lifetimes locked in an intellectial grid will surely follow ... until it's figured out. There is only one shortcut, and it's called hard work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KXidr0z1RY

Aum Namasivaya

silence_speaks
14 November 2014, 11:53 AM
Vannakkam Seeker: I totally concur. In my view, the last thing anyone needs is to fall into the Advaita trap and think it's all done, so why do anything. Many lifetimes locked in an intellectial grid will surely follow ... until it's figured out. There is only one shortcut, and it's called hard work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KXidr0z1RY

Aum Namasivaya

:) Eastern Mind ji,
:)

If i am a prince ... and i take myself to be a pauper ... how long will i remain a pauper ? As long as i consider myself one!

One should not fall into the "Prince trap" , Eastern mind ji ... one should continue pauper practices for long enough ... so that one day the pauper wakes up to see himself donned in king's robes ... some angel or God will come and robe him thus while he is sleeping I presume -- pleased with his practices !!

The lesson is : one who does not want to wake up should be allowed to remain so ... blissfully dreaming of a million practices and a billion experiences .... never even once falling into the "waking up Trap" ! "Without falling into the wake up trap", may the sleep continue for a few life times! Where is the hurry ? isn't it ?


I learn this lesson from some friends ... who taught me that teaching should be smooth ! Until then ... I thought teaching should convey the vision, its not there to massage the ego .... and shaving should be smooth ! ;)

There are a few who do not want to continue the sleep ... and yoga vasishta is for them! It is for such people that Vivekananda ji has said:

"Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are sheep; You are souls immortal, spirits free, blest and eternal; ye are not matter..."

--- rest continue to remain as sheep, without ever falling into the trap of considering themselves as lions ! They are happy to consider themselves as sheep that will transform themselves into lions through various practices !

Eastern Mind ji ... Trust me ... this post was with lot of love ! Love , Love and Love alone !


Love!
Silence

Eastern Mind
14 November 2014, 02:06 PM
Vannakkam SS:

My post was directed at Seekerji, but I think he most likely has it figured out now. Sometimes people need a bit of confirmation that they're on the right track.

Aum Namasivaya

Seeker
18 November 2014, 11:36 AM
Namaste Silence Speaker Ji,

Thanks for your reply.

I can see where you are coming from.

If I am a prince & view myself as a prince , then I am Okay. I will know that I have command over people with ability to exercise my powers.

If I am a prince & view myself as a pauper , I am okay too with minimal hurt. 'Others' will know that I am the prince , and once I am out of my falsehood , I would still have command and powers.

If I am a pauper & view myself as a pauper , I am okay too. I will be humble & try to make some effort to shield myself from the ills of poverty . May be even I may become a prince , if my effort becomes profitable with resulting riches.

On the contrary , if I am a pauper & view myself as a prince and pretend as such , then I will soon be in a world of hurt. I may not even pony up any effort to lift myself up.

How do I avoid the hurt ?

Like the prince knowing that he can command & exercise powers , a realized person also have markers - as told by our sages. They did not leave us with mere convictions. We are told consistently about darshans , siddhis , acquiescing of seers and ever permeating joy as these markers. We are also told that we will see the transformations in our emotions & senses.

From your posts , I read that 'everyone is a prince'. I believe that everyone is capable of becoming a prince. We are merely reflections of divine light. Reflections does not become the original object. Our sadhanas are the effort that merge the reflections to the original - this is the point where dwaitha sheds its skin.

silence_speaks
18 November 2014, 09:24 PM
Dear Seeker ji,
:) Namasthe!



From your posts , I read that 'everyone is a prince'. I believe that everyone is capable of becoming a prince.


This is not what our scriptures are saying.
Their claim is : you are Purna, Complete. Full.
Not that you have to become complete. You are already complete, that is their claim.

Sri Adi Shankaracharya has a story to illustrate the point: The story of 10 disciples of a monk. They were to go somewhere for some function... for which they had to cross a river. The guru told them to take care of each other ... so after crossing the river, they count themselves ... and each one counts all leaving himself : they conclude that 1 person has drowned in the river.

so the 10th man ... the person who counted ... has to become the 10th man or is he already the 10th man ?

Seeker ji, for the example i have given ... i explained a point through the example. one does not extend the example ... its considered not a logical approach to extend examples. One has to discuss the idea presented through the example... not discuss the example. In the present case its ok, but usually when we discuss a topic ... its not appropriate to extend any examples... look at what is pointed through the example and talk about the indicated point, not the example itself.

Love!
Silence

Viraja
19 November 2014, 02:04 PM
Silence_speaks ji,

I'm curious... so you're saying all of us have to quit our devotional practices because we are already the 'god' himself/herself and as long as we 'feel' we are god, then that's all that is needed? There is no need to get beyond the boundaries of our emotions, none of us have anything to achieve in the spirituality realm - we can be even an ISIS extremist who beheads an innocent civilian each day but we are still god who does not need spiritual practice because we 'feel' that we are god, right?

silence_speaks
20 November 2014, 01:20 AM
Silence_speaks ji,

I'm curious... so you're saying all of us have to quit our devotional practices because we are already the 'god' himself/herself and as long as we 'feel' we are god, then that's all that is needed? There is no need to get beyond the boundaries of our emotions, none of us have anything to achieve in the spirituality realm - we can be even an ISIS extremist who beheads an innocent civilian each day but we are still god who does not need spiritual practice because we 'feel' that we are god, right?


Dear Viraja ji,
:) I did not say any of that. How did you come to such a conclusion ?
Where did I ever say "You are God" ?

Love!
Silence

saswathy
20 November 2014, 09:21 PM
Dear friend ,
God is cosmic energy . He is energy and also the essence .So even an iota in his creation is God . That is the absolute truth . But we , humans have limitations so far as time , place , space and perceptions are concerned . So we choose a particular form , shape and name and worship to reach that absolute reality whether knowingly or unknowingly .The ultimate goal is one and same .All people can't reach in one go and can't even understand the content and subject of higher knowledge. Everything has it's own time and procedure .

Anirudh
22 November 2014, 05:33 PM
Namaste

Shree Bhagavaan has a shape although he envelopes every thing. That's why Shree Krishna showed his both forms to Shree Arjuna.

Regarding the OP's question, I am sure we have discussed more than required.......