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ale84
04 October 2014, 08:26 AM
Hello,
If it is said that Ishvara is nothing but the sum total of jivas then, how can be said that jiva is deluded by maya but Ishvara isn't?

Thanks.

yajvan
04 October 2014, 09:57 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Hello,
If it is said that Ishvara is nothing but the sum total of jivas then, how can be said that jiva is deluded by maya but Ishvara isn't?

Thanks.

It depends on which school (darśana) is saying this... this is where one gets some consternation. A person may read one thing and does not have other reference points to compare and contrast it against.

For some schools there is no delusion of the the Supreme at all, for others there is no māyā as the ~villain~ and for other schools there is no Lord per say.

One needs to stand a bit higher on the mountain to get the lay of the land... nothing beats multiple points of view to hone one's intellect. Until that occurs one is blown here and there like a ship w/o a rudder.

iti śivaṁ

wundermonk
04 October 2014, 10:48 AM
Greetings,

A few analogies may help the beginner.

A woman searches hither-thither for necklace. She finds it around her own neck where she had never looked before and is now relieved.

Where was the ignorance residing? From where did her new knowledge emerge?

BTW, an indepth understanding of the answer to this question requires some background knowledge of satkaryavada (every effect is preexistent in the cause) and asatkaryavada (every effect is new and is not preexistent in the cause).

Advaita subscribes to satkaryavada, btw.

A famous example of illustration of satkaryavada in Western philosophy is Socrates' dialogue with the slave boy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno's_slave).

ale84
04 October 2014, 10:55 AM
Hello, yajvan


hariḥ o�
~~~~~~
namasté



It depends on which school (darśana) is saying this... this is where one gets some consternation. A person may read one thing and does not have other reference points to compare and contrast it against.

For some schools there is no delusion of the the Supreme at all, for others there is no m�y� as the ~villain~ and for other schools there is no Lord per say.

One needs to stand a bit higher on the mountain to get the lay of the land... nothing beats multiple points of view to hone one's intellect. Until that occurs one is blown here and there like a ship w/o a rudder.


iti śiva�

I read it in some articles online. To mention a couple, Sivananda and Vivekananda both make this statment about ishvara.

smaranam
04 October 2014, 11:19 AM
Namaste

Hello,
If it is said that Ishvara is nothing but the sum total of jivas then, how can be said that jiva is deluded by maya but Ishvara isn't?

Thanks.
Ishvara is never deluded by mAyA, because Ishvara is the Lord of jivas, mAyA, vidyA, avidyA, everything.

I know the title of this forum says "advaita" but even then, Ishvara is a lot more than the sum total of all jivas. The jivas and jagat are merely parts of Ishvara. So when the premise in your statement is corrected, there cannot be any contradiction :) and yet the title remains "advaita"

bhajo shri kRshNa chaitanya prabhu nityAnanda
hare kRshNa hare rAm shri rAdhe govinda
jayo rAdhe govindo S rAdhe govindo

devotee
06 October 2014, 02:49 AM
Namaste ale,



If it is said that Ishvara is nothing but the sum total of jivas then, how can be said that jiva is deluded by maya but Ishvara isn't?


I agree with what Yajvan has said. As you have asked this question in Advaita forum, I would assume that you are looking for Advaita's view on this issue. Relationship of Ishvara and Jeeva is very very difficult issue to understand. Let's revisit these points :

a) Jeeva is deluded. It doesn't see the reality. It mistakes unreal as real. It is bound by the laws of Nature. It accrues Karma and enjoys/suffers the fruits of its Karma. It goes into the cycles of births and deaths. Jeeva sees the duality.

In spite of that Jeeva is none but Brahman.

b) Ishvara is not bound by Laws of Nature even though this Ishvara aspect of Brahman is due to "association of Nirguna Brahman and MAyA". Ishvara is the Lord of MAyA and this world. Ishvara even though "arising" because of MAyA, is not deluded by MAyA. Ishvara is undifferentiated mass of consciousness. Ishvara is non-dual with this universe. Ishvara is the origin and end of all beings in this world.

Ishvara is none but Brahman.

*****************

Doesn't it complicate the matter even more ? It does. Ishvara is not sum-total of Jeeva. If it were, then it can't be non-dual and not-deluded and also omnipotent. This relationship can be better understood with analogy of mind and thought-waves during dream of a dreamer. In a dream, there are many characters which seemingly act differently without taking any guidance from the dreamer. There is a whole world created in a dream which acts as if it has its independent existence. And yet, the dreamer is different. The whole world in dream of the dreamer arise from the mind of dreamer and on awakening dissolve back into the mind of the dreamer but the dreamer is not the sum-total of the dream-characters. By Yogic practice, a dreamer may not get deluded by dreams and can guide the happenings in a dream (Lucid Dreaming). This is the state of Ishvara. Ishvara very well knows that it is all unreal. Ishvara doesn't get deluded by the illusion of this world and whatever happens in this world is fully in control of Ishvara.

OM

hinduism♥krishna
01 November 2014, 05:20 AM
Hello,
If it is said that Ishvara is nothing but the sum total of jivas then, how can be said that jiva is deluded by maya but Ishvara isn't?

Thanks.

Hello ..

Before you question, I think, you should know that Ishwara isn't sum of all jiva. Such philosophy doesn't subscribe to Advaita.

Ishwara is free from mAyA and Jiva isn't, these all things are just illusions .. Appearance of Ishwara as not bonded and jiva as deluded is because of UpAdhi only and upadhi can be supreme or lower , that are not in existence at all.

One ishwara alone is present in all bodies and there's no doubt that Brahman itself acts as JivA.

Yes, it feels contradictory that Brahman gets deluded because it itself is jivA. But know that this is the mAyA of Ishwara, jiva isn't deluded actually, even as there's no change in the moon when ripples are formed on the moon in the water.

In nutshell, we can say that the idea that as Brahman that is ever free eternal all pervading can't have delusion and so jiva isn't Brahman, is itself mAyA of Bhagavan.. (Source Bhagavata PurAna - maitreya-vidura conversation)



Thank You..

ale84
01 November 2014, 05:40 AM
Hello,



In nutshell, we can say that the idea that as Brahman that is ever free eternal all pervading can't have delusion and so jiva isn't Brahman, is itself mAyA of Bhagavan.. (Source Bhagavata PurAna - maitreya-vidura conversation)

So, if I understand you correctly, what we call "jiva" is only mind/ego/intellect and not the consciousness that's aware of it, am I right?

hinduism♥krishna
01 November 2014, 05:59 AM
Hello,



So, if I understand you correctly, what we call "jiva" is only mind/ego/intellect and not the consciousness that's aware of it, am I right?

Jiva is UpAdhi of onlooker soul which is purusha and generally known as part of Brahman, because its association with very minute attributes like mind, intellect and prAnA. Vedanta firmly States that soul is the onlooker of three states.

Surprisingly, jiva doesn't exist actually, I can say, jiva is as real as the footprints of bird flying in the sky.

The fact, one can't comprehend vishnu's maya.. It's nothing but creates everything. How powerful is that, it doesn't have any absolute existence but creates everything and pretends itself as existed.

ale84
01 November 2014, 06:13 AM
Jiva is UpAdhi of onlooker soul which is purusha and generally known as part of Brahman, because its association with very minute attributes like mind, intellect and prAnA. Vedanta firmly States that soul is the onlooker of three states.

Surprisingly, jiva doesn't exist actually, I can say, jiva is as real as the footprints of bird flying in the sky.

The fact, one can't comprehend vishnu's maya.. It's nothing but creates everything. How powerful is that, it doesn't have any absolute existence but creates everything and pretends itself as existed.

I see, the wholeness "assumes" limitations just to witness it's own wholeness.

hinduism♥krishna
01 November 2014, 06:23 AM
I see, the wholeness "assumes" limitations just to witness it's own wholeness.

Yea, Brahman itself thinks itself different from its own self and that thinking is also mAyA and we call this mAyA. There's a maya is also a mAyA. Maya of MayA is Brahman. Considering this Upanishads say this world(maya) is Brahman. The world is Brahman but Brahman is not in the world :)

The best example to define jiva, jiva is appeared mixture of Purusha and Prakruti, just as how drop(jiva) is formed from air(Prakruti) and Water(purusha or Brahman).