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Anirudh
12 October 2014, 06:40 PM
Namaste

This question has nothing to do with Manu Neethi because the rules for people belonging to different Varna weren't strictly followed leading to exploitation and abusing the rules.

I am not interested to discuss about the degradation of Hindu ethical conducts because that's a deviation from the prescribed rules. Again it is do with implementation flaws

In the gambling between Duryodhana and Yudishter, they seemed to have used their slaves as bets besides their brothers and spouses.

Even in the Sathya Harichandra story we find human slavery is common during then.

So what is our scriptures position on Human slaves? Did it support Human slavery? Did we had sex slaves, supported by our scriptures?

What is the exact meaning of Daas or Daasi in the context of human slavery.

Kalicharan Tuvij
13 October 2014, 07:33 AM
Namaste,

Namaste

This question has nothing to do with Manu Neethi because the rules for people belonging to different Varna weren't strictly followed leading to exploitation and abusing the rules.
No need to be afraid of Manu smriti, if read in the correct context.


So what is our scriptures position on Human slaves? Did it support Human slavery? Did we had sex slaves, supported by our scriptures?

Yes, and No.


What is the exact meaning of Daas or Daasi in the context of human slavery.
There are basically two classes: Arya and Dasyu.
Dasyu is the original state. That is, those people who were not "trained" into Arya fold were considered Dasyu. Even the as born state of a child was considered that of Dasyu until Sacred Thread ceremony was performed which implied a formal entry into the Rsis' Varna-Ashrama training.

Even in the Satyuga, Arya-s were greatly outflanked by the Dasyu. Let us understand it in yet another way:--

Vedic culture was an innovation of the time (and perhaps the single most important innovation of all time), so the tribe who found this way suddenly transformed into the Arya-s.

But they didnt stop at that, and thought it necessary to bring higher consciousness to all mankind. Thus, by "Dasyu" they meant those people who were yet ignorant of the Vedic ways. So, Dasyu can be a normal, peaceful person (not necessarily terrorist type).

So, the Arya limits were ever expanding, but at its boundaries there always remained an interface with the Dasyus.

This "interface" could also be seen as the "buffer people": those who were undergoing the transformation.

The exact method as to how the Arya-s went about this is not very well documented, but there clearly seem to be more than a few solutions, e.g., war, education, marriage, etc.

Some of the "buffer people" were called "dAsa" and "dAsi". Dasyu>>Das>>Arya.

Many of the Arya tribes, who were into the Arya-ways for many generations, protested against this intermingling and "diluting" and parted ways with the mainland Arya-s. This was perhaps near the end of Satyuga.

In Rama's period, we already see that the Arya-s had given up largely, and the Rsis also were finding it extremely difficult to maintain their Varna-Ashrama-s operating safe along the Arya-boundaries.

Many Vedic Rsis and Heroes were aware and glad of their Dasyu and Das origins, and had names such as "DivoDasa" etc. That is, "Dasa" itself became an Arya name, in time.



P.S.: 1. Dasyu males, however, had to likely go through a difficult training before getting accepted into the fold. In the Ashrama, it was the udgAtR priest and position - a representative of the Shudra-Arya-Varna - the force that played key role in the transformative process.
2. The lesson for me is this: If I am a Dasyu, no amount of victim-playing, terrorism, excuses, manipulation, rape, loot is going to improve me, make me better. Reincarnation and Karma will further ensure that I be damned. And yes, Dharma believes that no two men are born equal; but most important of all, Dharma also knows that potentiality is also infinite within each of us.


Shri RAm

Anirudh
16 October 2014, 01:29 AM
Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij

I am curious to know the source as it will help me to learn more about our History. I wish to know how slaves were treated by theirmasters


Namaste,

No need to be afraid of Manu smriti, if read in the correct context.


Yes, and No.


There are basically two classes: Arya and Dasyu.
Dasyu is the original state. That is, those people who were not "trained" into Arya fold were considered Dasyu. Even the as born state of a child was considered that of Dasyu until Sacred Thread ceremony was performed which implied a formal entry into the Rsis' Varna-Ashrama training.

Even in the Satyuga, Arya-s were greatly outflanked by the Dasyu. Let us understand it in yet another way:--

Vedic culture was an innovation of the time (and perhaps the single most important innovation of all time), so the tribe who found this way suddenly transformed into the Arya-s.

But they didnt stop at that, and thought it necessary to bring higher consciousness to all mankind. Thus, by "Dasyu" they meant those people who were yet ignorant of the Vedic ways. So, Dasyu can be a normal, peaceful person (not necessarily terrorist type).

So, the Arya limits were ever expanding, but at its boundaries there always remained an interface with the Dasyus.

This "interface" could also be seen as the "buffer people": those who were undergoing the transformation.

The exact method as to how the Arya-s went about this is not very well documented, but there clearly seem to be more than a few solutions, e.g., war, education, marriage, etc.

Some of the "buffer people" were called "dAsa" and "dAsi". Dasyu>>Das>>Arya.

Many of the Arya tribes, who were into the Arya-ways for many generations, protested against this intermingling and "diluting" and parted ways with the mainland Arya-s. This was perhaps near the end of Satyuga.

In Rama's period, we already see that the Arya-s had given up largely, and the Rsis also were finding it extremely difficult to maintain their Varna-Ashrama-s operating safe along the Arya-boundaries.

Many Vedic Rsis and Heroes were aware and glad of their Dasyu and Das origins, and had names such as "DivoDasa" etc. That is, "Dasa" itself became an Arya name, in time.



P.S.: 1. Dasyu males, however, had to likely go through a difficult training before getting accepted into the fold. In the Ashrama, it was the udgAtR priest and position - a representative of the Shudra-Arya-Varna - the force that played key role in the transformative process.
2. The lesson for me is this: If I am a Dasyu, no amount of victim-playing, terrorism, excuses, manipulation, rape, loot is going to improve me, make me better. Reincarnation and Karma will further ensure that I be damned. And yes, Dharma believes that no two men are born equal; but most important of all, Dharma also knows that potentiality is also infinite within each of us.


Shri RAm

Kalicharan Tuvij
16 October 2014, 09:52 AM
Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij

I am curious to know the source as it will help me to learn more about our History. I wish to know how slaves were treated by theirmasters
In this case I don't have to produce my "source" - other than simply stating that the opinion expressed is a very well considered one that takes into account vast data. Let us say my opinion here is a hypothesis and others need to produce evidence in order to reject it.

I may sound a bit unreasonable, but am not. No Indian has bothered to think about this issue; likely they don't want to - I guess that is because they are busy proclaiming themselves as a backward (in legalised ways), third world (read Dasyu) nation, so that they can be the official suckers of the world - accumulating all the NGO monies as well as Noble awards and other perks.

In the world of the good and the bad, apparently there is one more way to survive - the ugly. Lagey raho India.


P.S.: 1) dāsa doesn't mean Shudra. Shudra were a Vedic Varna on par with the other Varna-s.
2) No children were ever considered dāsa. They were right away taken into Varnashrama-s.
3) I will recommend the Hollywood movie "Divergent" (release 2014), a good effort (though not entirely successful) into the subject of Varna (yeah, too much to expect from Indian movie maker).

Anirudh
16 October 2014, 09:19 PM
the world of the good and the bad,apparently there is one more way to survive - the ugly. Lagey raho India.
Though a bit of truth in your statements, it is very harsh. Especially when it came from you.

Sudas Paijavana
31 October 2014, 09:44 PM
Namaste,

No need to be afraid of Manu smriti, if read in the correct context.


Yes, and No.


There are basically two classes: Arya and Dasyu.
Dasyu is the original state. That is, those people who were not "trained" into Arya fold were considered Dasyu. Even the as born state of a child was considered that of Dasyu until Sacred Thread ceremony was performed which implied a formal entry into the Rsis' Varna-Ashrama training.

Even in the Satyuga, Arya-s were greatly outflanked by the Dasyu. Let us understand it in yet another way:--

Vedic culture was an innovation of the time (and perhaps the single most important innovation of all time), so the tribe who found this way suddenly transformed into the Arya-s.

But they didnt stop at that, and thought it necessary to bring higher consciousness to all mankind. Thus, by "Dasyu" they meant those people who were yet ignorant of the Vedic ways. So, Dasyu can be a normal, peaceful person (not necessarily terrorist type).

So, the Arya limits were ever expanding, but at its boundaries there always remained an interface with the Dasyus.

This "interface" could also be seen as the "buffer people": those who were undergoing the transformation.

The exact method as to how the Arya-s went about this is not very well documented, but there clearly seem to be more than a few solutions, e.g., war, education, marriage, etc.

Some of the "buffer people" were called "dAsa" and "dAsi". Dasyu>>Das>>Arya.

Many of the Arya tribes, who were into the Arya-ways for many generations, protested against this intermingling and "diluting" and parted ways with the mainland Arya-s. This was perhaps near the end of Satyuga.

In Rama's period, we already see that the Arya-s had given up largely, and the Rsis also were finding it extremely difficult to maintain their Varna-Ashrama-s operating safe along the Arya-boundaries.

Many Vedic Rsis and Heroes were aware and glad of their Dasyu and Das origins, and had names such as "DivoDasa" etc. That is, "Dasa" itself became an Arya name, in time.



P.S.: 1. Dasyu males, however, had to likely go through a difficult training before getting accepted into the fold. In the Ashrama, it was the udgAtR priest and position - a representative of the Shudra-Arya-Varna - the force that played key role in the transformative process.
2. The lesson for me is this: If I am a Dasyu, no amount of victim-playing, terrorism, excuses, manipulation, rape, loot is going to improve me, make me better. Reincarnation and Karma will further ensure that I be damned. And yes, Dharma believes that no two men are born equal; but most important of all, Dharma also knows that potentiality is also infinite within each of us.


Shri RAm

Namaste,

Glorious Kalicharan, be not hesitant! Remember the Yatudhana-s!

Kalicharan Tuvij
01 November 2014, 07:29 AM
Namaste,

Glorious Kalicharan, be not hesitant! Remember the Yatudhana-s!
Namaste Sudas,
Thank you for the encouragement. No, I need it. Desperately.:D

As you know there is a variety of the class Dasyu. Yatudhana is one, that is, the aggressive evil.

Another is the pasu. Yajvan has beautifully put this term to use in one ongoing thread (closed now).

Oftentimes I too feel like being a pasu: not being able to overcome the barriers. In those depressing times however I do remember to do the yagya, and to burn it all, to start again.

but there hardly are any like minded Hindus around, and it becomes difficult keep the fire burning bright. You may sometimes feel like waste of time interacting.

I wonder, how come the average illiterate Hindu is of such wideness that allows all devata-s to reside within it, yet the average literate Hindu that you come across - is more often than not an obsssesive mind full of all embellishments of angrezi.

But again, it has been a real delight to interact with a few like minded Hindus. May the tribe grow!

Anirudh
01 November 2014, 08:02 AM
Namaste Sudas ji

It is been long time no see? Hope everything is fine at your end?

Namaste Kali Charan ji,

obsssesive mind full of all embellishments of angrezi.

Care to explain?

Sudas Paijavana
01 November 2014, 04:10 PM
I wonder, how come the average illiterate Hindu is of such wideness that allows all devata-s to reside within it, yet the average literate Hindu that you come across - is more often than not an obsssesive mind full of all embellishments of angrezi.

Namaste,

Subject lessons, yaar. Colonial leftovers. :D


Namaste Sudas ji

It is been long time no see? Hope everything is fine at your end?


Namaste, Anirudh:

Yes, everything is fine here. Thank you for asking. How are you doing? I hope all is well with you.

Kalicharan Tuvij
02 November 2014, 01:41 AM
Namaste Sudas ji

It is been long time no see? Hope everything is fine at your end?

He must have been devoting this time in a devata who everyone says is formless, quality-less, and most importantly , Silent -- hence the no see. The No See mod @HDF:D



Namaste Kali Charan ji,

obsssesive mind full of all embellishments of angrezi.

Care to explain?
Sudas is "too-the-point" on this, though I believe you had recent interactions with one specimen ;) .

On a more serious note (ahem),
The urban centers of India -- because of heavy interactions with various foreign occupiers -- have developed a peculiar brand of Hinduism which is very inimical. That is why I believe in "Village Hindu" to take the lead; unfortunately, however, it is still the urban "Hindu" who hold all reins.

This "peculiar brand of Hinduism" of "urbanites" has some traits (that come to my mind):--
Monotheistic traits (Abrahamic), soft lifestyles, soft types of Vedanta, veneration of neo-hinduism such as that of Viekananda et all, angrezi, etc.

They are not serving India's interest in their workfields. They think lowly of villagers, and mostly keep them ignorant of their deeds by the use of various smokescreens. Finally they settle into foreign lands (god bless those countries. Amen.).

They have built up a power-structure where you have to become like them in order to be successful. One example is media, where we get to see many journos join coming from humble backgrounds but still continue with the anti-Hindu rant -- in order to be successful in their careers. Now, just think of other more important institutions such as politics, defence, R&D, etc.

Anirudh
02 November 2014, 08:13 PM
Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij ji

:-) Thanks for those simple yet beautiful words. As i write this reply, it is 6 am here in India. Very Good Morning.

I haven't yet understood the complete structure of our various deities. Instead of troubling me with subjects that is hard to understand at the moment, I have decided to deal spirituality the way software projects are executed by following object oriented unified spiral approach. My years of real time professional experience is very helpful in my spritual journey.

I completely agree, culture is protected in our villages by the people who have less ego and literacy than the ones who spend years of time to learn, practise and excell culture (corporate ?). Very easy way to identify this corporate culture is to observe the aggression. Aggression in my experience is the result of illusion. The illusion of having conquered zenith or peak.

In that unfortunate breed ( including me ), humility and mutual respect completely vanishes at a point in time when it is highly required. I am working hard to get rid of this acquired illusion.

Sadly villages are fast disappearing. You and I along with like minded souls can contribute to halt this depleting effect by practising humility and mutual respect. When one see aggression, assertiveness should hold its ground. I believe, that acquired illusion will loose eventually ...



He must have been devoting this time in a devata who everyone says is formless, quality-less, and most importantly , Silent -- hence the no see. The No See mod @HDF:D


Sudas is "too-the-point" on this, though I believe you had recent interactions with one specimen ;) .

On a more serious note (ahem),
The urban centers of India -- because of heavy interactions with various foreign occupiers -- have developed a peculiar brand of Hinduism which is very inimical. That is why I believe in "Village Hindu" to take the lead; unfortunately, however, it is still the urban "Hindu" who hold all reins.

This "peculiar brand of Hinduism" of "urbanites" has some traits (that come to my mind):--
Monotheistic traits (Abrahamic), soft lifestyles, soft types of Vedanta, veneration of neo-hinduism such as that of Viekananda et all, angrezi, etc.

They are not serving India's interest in their workfields. They think lowly of villagers, and mostly keep them ignorant of their deeds by the use of various smokescreens. Finally they settle into foreign lands (god bless those countries. Amen.).

They have built up a power-structure where you have to become like them in order to be successful. One example is media, where we get to see many journos join coming from humble backgrounds but still continue with the anti-Hindu rant -- in order to be successful in their careers. Now, just think of other more important institutions such as politics, defence, R&D, etc.

Kalicharan Tuvij
03 November 2014, 02:25 AM
Namaste Anirudh ji,

I totally share your concerns.
Though I feel it far more effective to unleash the "village Hindu" and transform the urban culture rather than building fences around the village.

What are the challenges?

One is, no one has translated the vision of Purana-s and Veda on an intellectual level. Ram Swarup - the great Hindu scholar in recent times - caught the glimpse of it, but a proper articulation remains to be seen. Funding can also be a very critical issue.

What are the adversaries?

For example, many literate liberal Hindus can't stop stressing : "sabkA mAlik ek hai" (everyone's god is the same). Now, this sounds very universal, like the culmination of all harmony and wisdom. But it is not. If you scratch the surface of it, the statement is a very Abrahamic and intolerant one, especially when translated into practical terms.

Many wrongly apply Advaita to align with - knowingly or unknowingly - Abrahamic undertones. They forget that Advaita is a mode of worship. For example when I meditate on Chinnamasta Ma, I only see Red - isn't this Advaita? Being able to worship through other modes - murthy or bhajan - since when did this become a disability?

What are the methods?

Stressing on the polytheistic structure of Dharma, even though it is no way possible to label Dharma as anything in particular.

And I agree it is nigh impossible to know all the deities in one life time (but again, we are souls having many lifetimes behind). I remember the quote of one Vedic polytheist on RF, @Poeticus:
"I don't have to believe them, I acknowledge them".

So, of the three methods suggested earlier in this thread (war, education, marriage), I suppose, education can be the key.

Anirudh
06 November 2014, 05:05 PM
Namaste Kali Charan ji

In a holistic view we are all saves of Shree Bhagwaan. In my case Shreeman Naaraayan. My master doesn't exploit me but in the case of slavery we had been discussing the master or the slave will most likely exploit the other.

Education is neutral but impartial education is the last we can expect.

Even if we devise protocols, can we identify the one(s) who would bell the cat?