PDA

View Full Version : The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !



devotee
19 October 2014, 10:35 PM
Namaste forum members,

This thread has been started to post inspiring thoughts on God, religion, morality, Advaitic thoughts, or anything you feel you want to contribute which would help spiritual uplifting of Truth-seekers.

Though contribution from any Hindu sect is welcome in this thread, please try to be respectful towards all sects of our great Hindu Dharma and not try to show supremacy of one w.r.t. others. This thread has been opened in Advaita forum purposefully as from Advaitic point of view all Bhkati paths lead to the same goal i.e. God and therefore, there is no conflict in the minds of Advaitins regarding different paths. Advaita SAdhanA doesn't exclude God but seeks God's blessings for being able to tread the path successfully. So, no bhakti path is in contradiction to Advaita unless it tends to become dogmatic.

In addition to spiritual thoughts, you can very well post Hindu wisdom found in innumerable writings by various Hindu saints, philosophers etc.

Brief discussions are expected in the thread but it should be limited otherwise, the main purpose of the thread will be defeated.

Hope to benefit from your contributions.

OM

devotee
19 October 2014, 11:02 PM
Monday, the 21st October (In India) :

What is God and where does he reside ? Lord Krishna says in Bhagwad Gita :

"Aham AtmA gudAkesha SarvabhUtAshaya sthitiah"

===> I am the Self staying in the heart of all beings.

"MayA tatam idam sarvam jagat avyakta murtinA"

===> This whole world is pervaded by me through and through in my unmanifested form.

God is called Ananta i.e. Infinite beyond which there is nothing and that is why IsAVAsya Upanishad says :

"IsAvAsyam Idam sarvam"

====> All this (the entire world) is pervaded by God.

Hindus believe everything divine. There is nothing in this world which is not a manifestation of God. We are merged in Infinite Ocean i.e. God from both outside and inside.

*************************

If that is so, why don't we see God ? Why don't we feel the presence of God ? Why do we need any exercise at all including Murti-worship, chanting Mantras or meditation to "call God towards us" or to "move towards God" ? If the above is true, then these terms "Calling God" or "moving towards God" become meaningless. When God is everywhere and we are all soaked in God's infinite presence, is it not foolishness to call through any means ? Why call anyone who was never separated from you ?

*************************

My views :

We don't see God only due to disturbances in our minds due to tendencies and impressions of minds. It is like trying to see one's image in water while disturbing the water with our violent activities within water. God is like that. It is we who is responsible for distorting the image of ever-present God within us. Our mind is restless all the time except in deep sleep and that is we don't see God but only the distortions created by mind. In deep sleep, we are not aware of anything. If we can bring mind to calmness of deep-sleep even when awake, we can see God.

How can we bring mind to calmness/stillness ? Through silent-Bhakti, meditation, Yama, Niyama, breath-control or PrANAyAm, detachment from the sense-objects and developing even-mindedness in all circumstances. Also, meditation and even-mindedness is not possible without the grace of God/Guru.

OM

hinduism♥krishna
04 November 2014, 11:57 AM
Hello Devotee, my questions to you ..

Does lord Krishna know he has form which is human like? :)

And can Ishwara change the fate- laws of prakruti? If yes how this is possible ..


Brahman is without any attribute. So it's something, it feels something, it thinks something, these all are invalid ideas and signs of something different from Brahman.

Thanks

Anirudh
04 November 2014, 02:08 PM
Namaste Devotee ji

Here is a list of quotes of Swami Chinmayananda. Each quote is a gem.

I am giving the link but I would request interested readers to save the quotes into their local storage media.

www.mychinmaya.org/index.php?id=res_gdquotes

hinduism♥krishna
04 November 2014, 08:41 PM
Namaste Devotee,

In Uddhava GitA, Lord Krishna has taught true knowledge - Advaita. Below is the one of the greatest quotes of lord Krishna, confirming everything as one self, one Lord.



"The Lord, the Atman is Himself what is created as the Universe and the creator as the Atman only, one with it, by whom it is coming into existence. He protects it, it is protected by Him as Vishwatma, the All-pervading God, and He also sums up and withdraws it in Himself. Therefore there is nothing else but Atman, described to be Reality. All these things coming, existing or ending – the three states only falsely appear on the true base of Atman."


"Even though there is no reality in the worldly life, it cannot be negated easily. Just as one is afraid of disasters in the dream, there is great fear of dangers if there is attention paid to objects in this (though unreal) world. (13)


"A man established in the self, no longer cognizes his perishable body, by means of which he has realized his self,-as risen or settled, gone out or come back by chance. This is similar to the man under the influence of wine who is not aware whether his garment is in place or has fallen therefrom. (36)

"With his intellect thus established, he sees me in himself and himself actually merged in me, like an individual light in the element of fire."

"A seeker will not suffer so much by keeping company with other persons as he will suffer from contact with woman or with men who are crazy about women! (30)




I'd like to post here various nectar like philosophical and devotional quotes of shri Krishna.

Thank You

devotee
04 November 2014, 10:01 PM
Namaste HLK,



Does lord Krishna know he has form which is human like? :)

"Krishna" is Omniscient and therefore, knows everything. So, he must know that we have perceived him in a certain form. Now, is that the "real" form of Lord Krishna ? From Advaitic point of view and also from what various scriptures say, "Lord Krishna cannot be limited to any form." Why ? To prove this, let's assume that Lord Krishna has a definite form. This means that He must be confined within form --- otherwise, the form attributed to Lord Krishna would not be the "real" one as it is not limited to that form. If that is true then God cannot be the soul (AtmAn) in the hearts of all beings as claimed by him in Bhagwad Gita. If that is so then God cannot be omnipresent and Infinite as he is described in scriptures. If that is true then God cannot be omniscient too as whatever is not omnipresent cannot be omniscient. This violates the concept of God and therefore, our first assumption that "Lord Krishna has a definite form" must be wrong.


And can Ishwara change the fate- laws of prakruti? If yes how this is possible ..

Ishvara is the master of Prakriti and therefore he has the power of showering grace on His devotees. It is not against the laws of Karma/Nature. It is within it. It is just like special powers granted to the President of India by the Constitution. Usually, God doesn't interfere in the laws of Karma but sometimes, in rare circumstances, He does. This is my opinion.


Brahman is without any attribute. So it's something, it feels something, it thinks something, these all are invalid ideas and signs of something different from Brahman.


Brahman without any attribute perceived by mind is only in fourth state of Existence. In three relative states of existence i.e. three MAyic states he has all (mental) attributes. When we say that Brahman has no attributes that doesn't mean that He is completely devoid of all qualities (yes, He doesn't have any quality perceived by mind) in fourth state. If Brahman was devoid of all qualities then It could have been described and perceived as that but MAndukya Upanishad negates all mental concepts in fourth state. If we say that water is colourless ... it is some attribute (mental) of water. If we say that Brahman is without any attribute then also, it can be perceived by mind. However, there is no mental concept which can describe Brahman and therefore saying that Brahman is without any attribute is also a false concept because it can be perceived by mind.

OM

devotee
04 November 2014, 10:01 PM
Here is a list of quotes of Swami Chinmayananda. Each quote is a gem.

I am giving the link but I would request interested readers to save the quotes into their local storage media.

www.mychinmaya.org/index.php?id=res_gdquotes

Beautiful and inspiring quotes ! Thanks. :)

OM

Anirudh
05 November 2014, 12:44 AM
Ishvara is the master of Prakriti and therefore he has the power of showering grace on His devotees.

It is not against the laws of Karma/
Nature. It is within it.

It is just like special powers granted to the President of India by the Constitution.

Usually, God doesn't interfere in
the laws of Karma but sometimes, in rare circumstances, He does. This is my opinion.


Namaste Devotee ji

Without diverting the theme of this thread, may I ask / add the following;

#1. What are scriptures to be studied to understand the law of karma?

#2. Faith and prayer play a major role in the ways events / future unfold. If not, one can roughly assume prayer as something meant only for a self realized or spiritually evolved oerson.

Consider this :

If an ordinary person driven by various forces acting upon him is firmly instructed that the prayers wouldnt alter the flow of events why would he even attempt to pray? We discussed a lot about in the need of daily sadhana thread.

My view about Karmic laws and Bhagwan's involvement to change its course us like the flow of a river. On a hard surface only big boulders can change its course while if the earth is loose the effort is less.

#3. I understand you were just trying to drive home the point. How ever, I would like to stress that those powers to alter the course of Karmic laws can't / shouldn't be understood as special powers. Instead they are the basic qualities that differentiate us from Bhagawan.

So kindly don't underplay the wisdom that you shared as meek opinions. Probably from the Advaitic angle my statements aren't correct. So hopefully I haven't derailed the theme.

Thanks...

PS : If you permit may I explain those Swami Chinmayananda quote by citing some real life examples. It is a general feeling, people fail to learn unless a real life example is attached.

In we can associate real life incidence this thread will be active for few months. We at HDF are the first agree in unison to disagree ;-)

Analyse the possibilities and let the members know because many can participate..

devotee
06 November 2014, 02:30 AM
Namaste Anirudh,



#1. What are scriptures to be studied to understand the law of karma?

I can't remember anyone scripture which alone can be prescribed. My understanding is based on studying various scriptures and what I learnt from my Guru.


#2. Faith and prayer play a major role in the ways events / future unfold. If not, one can roughly assume prayer as something meant only for a self realized or spiritually evolved oerson.

Consider this :

If an ordinary person driven by various forces acting upon him is firmly instructed that the prayers wouldnt alter the flow of events why would he even attempt to pray? We discussed a lot about in the need of daily sadhana thread.

My view about Karmic laws and Bhagwan's involvement to change its course us like the flow of a river. On a hard surface only big boulders can change its course while if the earth is loose the effort is less.

That is a good understanding.


#3. I understand you were just trying to drive home the point. How ever, I would like to stress that those powers to alter the course of Karmic laws can't / shouldn't be understood as special powers. Instead they are the basic qualities that differentiate us from Bhagawan.

Of course, God is special as He is the controller of the both MAyic states and also origin and end of all beings within creation. He is the master of MAyA. He is not bound by the limitations of MAyA.


If you permit may I explain those Swami Chinmayananda quote by citing some real life examples. It is a general feeling, people fail to learn unless a real life example is attached.

This thread is created to share such thoughts and wisdom. We will be happy if you share your valuable thoughts here. Everyone on this forum is invited to this thread for sharing and discussing valuable thoughts/wisdom.

OM

devotee
07 November 2014, 07:46 AM
November 07, 2014

Different practices of Dharma --- How do we reconcile

In Hindu Dharma we find many practices widely varying with each other and we always wonder which one is the right way. How do we follow our Dharma ?

a) Some worship God's Murtis and indulge in his praise in the form of Mantras, chanting bhajans, offering prayers etc.

b) Some perform vrata by keeping fast on certain days and worship God

c) Some go on pilgrimage by different modes for having darshan of the deity of the holy place.

d) Some chant mantras/indulge in special rituals to earn siddhis (special powers)

e) Some offer donations to the poor/BrAhmans and involve in social charity

f) Some meditate on a thought / form of God / Mantra and try to attain oneness with the Supreme

g) Live a disciplined life, keeping sense organs in control etc.

Great saints tell us that all of us are going towards the same goal. How can that be ? When the paths are different, the destinations also should be the same. If we are moving towards the same destinations then there must be some common component of the all spiritual actions. What is that component and how much is that important ?

I will reflect on these questions in my next post.

OM

hinduism♥krishna
08 November 2014, 02:17 AM
#Who attain MokshA#

The question seems not important as there, generally, is belief that all paths ( different ideas of reality) leads to one goal. But this isn't a fact at all, as I think and most probably scripture's view as well.

Vedanta clearly criticize those who see/assume any duality in Brahman. There's fear they say. Such duality is nowhere existed and who believe in it also become Asat.

Not only in vedAntA but also in all purAnas any duality is refuted and claims the one existence of Brahman alone. It's Vishnu, it's Shiva or it's brahma. One existence, one Brahman alone exists and here it's playing by his sport by appearing as Ishwara, prakruti and JivA. Those who not only see this but also experience, get liberated from the veil of mAyA and attain the self as if they've become Brahman again. This is the state wherein there's total dissolution of I, in other word Jiva. ParamAtmA which is essentially one with Soul, make that Jiva merge in its existence, who's at all times thinking about it. In VedAntA, this is explained by the behavior of mind. Whatever mind thinks constantly become that thing itself. So there's no doubt that whoever thinks about Brahman becomes that brahman.

The distinction among supreme gods, who are identified with brahman, is not at all good, though there are many views on this. Obviously, those who see duality among gods have not attained perfect knowledge because knowledge itself is absolutely opposite to duality as it's mentioned in vedanta. Shri Krishna himself says in BhagavatA, "Only those attain peace who don't consider any duality between shiva and me. They see one self everywhere".

Another aspect of the question 'who attain moksha' is knowledge. Upanishads say "DnyanAt eva mokshA"- "Knowledge alone is responsible for mokshA".. And what is that knowledge "The unity of AtmA and Brahma".. Bhagavan shankarA says in Viveka chudAmuni " MokshA is attained only by identification of self with Brahman " No any other means. Because Upanishads firmly states ignorance can be removed by knowledge only. Bhagavan Vishnu also say in GitA " I, who's situated as the self, remove their ignorance by lamp of knowledge " "There's nothing more purifier than this knowledge"

Hari Naryana

devotee
08 November 2014, 06:30 AM
Namaste,

What HLK has stated is also a valid view and yet there is something more which binds together all the paths with the same goal. How ?

Let’s first answer this question : Why do we make any effort, whether it is purely worldly or purely spiritual (if use of such terms are allowed) ? The answer is “to be happy”. This is our common goal. We all are seeking happiness. A poor man wants to be rich because he is seeking happiness because he feels that if he becomes rich he will be happy. A rich man wants good health, a loving wife and obedient children with good samskaars as he is seeking happiness in these things because he feels that if it happens what he wants then he would be happy. A woman of average looks wants to be beautiful as she seeks happiness in beauty which she feels would get her a rich and loving husband. A young man seeks beautiful wife as he is seeking happiness in a beautiful wife.

But the happiness got by all such worldly fulfilment is fleeting and temporary. A young man thinks that once he gets a good paying job he would be happy. But when he gets such a job he seeks a good looking, good natured wife. When he gets even a good wife, he seeks good and healthy children. Then he thinks that he should have his own beautiful grand home and then he would be happy. Etc. etc. The reality is that he becomes more and more restless and craves even more once his earlier desires are fulfilled.

Why are we seeking happiness even in conditions when we should be fully happy as perceived from another reference point ? Because it is true that we all are seeking happiness ... but we are not seeking worldly happiness. We are seeking eternal bliss. Unless we get that we won’t ever be happy. We are seeking eternal bliss because it is our true nature and we have somehow forgotten our true nature.

So, we all are moving towards our common goal ... eternal happiness/bliss. Those who are simply indulging in worldly cravings, enjoyments and sufferings they also are moving towards the same goal but they are taking a very-very long route and Nature is going to be their teacher who will teach then hard lessons through the laws of Karmas that happiness which they seek is not there in worldly possessions. These teachings/lessons will be engraved in their sub-conscious minds births after births and finally they would go towards spirituality being disenchanted with the worldly possessions.

Now, what is the common component in all spiritual practices which takes us towards our eternal quest ? The state where we will get what we seek is described by Lord Krishna as “Sthitprajna”, What is this state ? Lord Krishna teaches us in Chapter – 2 of Bhagwad Gita (verses 55-59) :


When one completely casts away, O partha, all the desires of the mind, satisfied in the self alone by the self, then he or she is said to be one of steady wisdom.

One whose mind is not shaken by adversity, who does not hanker after happiness, who has become free from attachment, fear and anger, is indeed the muni or sage of steady wisdom – Sthitahprajna

One who is everywhere unattached not pleased at receiving good, nor vexed at evil, his or her wisdom is steady

When also, like the tortoise drawing its limbs, one can completely withdraw the senses from their sense objects, his or her wisdom becomes steady

Sense objects fall away from the abstinent person, leaving the longing behind. But even that longing ceases when one realizes the supreme

Let’s analyse these verses and summarise what is needed to attain this state :

a) All desires of mind must be cast away
b) One should be fully content and happy with the Self alone by Self
c) Not disturbed by worldly adversity
d) Not seeking worldly happiness
e) Free from all attachments
f) Free from anger (for not getting what we desire or for losing what we love)
g) Free from fear of any worldly pains and sufferings
h) Equanimity in receiving both good and evil
i) All senses drawn away from sense-objects
j) Longing for sense-objects should be attained not by merely suppressing the desires artificially but by attaining one-ness with the Self.
k) Attaining full tranquillity of mind

So, this is the state which is our eternal blissful state and that is what we all are seeking. In what way different paths help us in attaining this state directly or indirectly ? I will discuss this in my next post.

OM

hinduism♥krishna
08 November 2014, 07:19 AM
What HLK has stated is also a valid view and yet there is something more which binds together all the paths with the same goal. How ?

Namaste Devotee,

I am also agreed with your view. But how'll you reconcile it with the view- Moksha is attained only by identifying the self with Brahman ? :)

What's the liberation of those who don't think self as one with that Brahman?

Thank You..

devotee
09 November 2014, 07:17 PM
Namaste,

The seekers of Truth can be broadly categorised as Bhakti Yogis, Karma-Yogis and JnAn Yogis. The common mistaken idea is that Bhakti-Yogis and JnAn Yogis have different goals and there is hardly anything common between them. The mistake arises due to getting too much bogged down with rituals/procedures and forgetting the goal which Lord Krishna keeps reminding in Bhagwad Gita again and again.

Let’s take an example of devotees who are going on a pilgrim to take bath in the river Ganga on some auspicious day. They believe that taking bath in the river will cleanse them of their sins and accrue spiritual merits. Now taking bath in river Ganga ... can it take us to state of Sthitaprajna that Lord Krishna talks about in Chapter 2 which is the state free from all pains and sufferings and is the state of eternal bliss ? Bhagwad Gita doesn’t promise anything on this account. However, it still helps. How ? The procedure involved is the clue to how it helps going towards the state. It may be a baby step. It may be a very small step but it goes towards that goal slowly. The devotees’ thoughts become devotional during the whole process --- right from starting for the river to taking bath and then performing pooja in a nearby temple etc. There is inclination to stay away from worldly thoughts for physical comforts, enjoying carnal desires etc. So, this purity of thoughts which is maintained throughout the process is very important and that takes them towards focussing their thoughts on the grace of God.

Similarly, when you chant the name of God, perform pooja by offering flowers, do havans, pray etc. you take away your thoughts from mundane desires and focus them on one thought i.e. thoughts of God. This change in direction of thoughts is very important because it would finally take us towards our goal. Thoughts create impressions in our minds and become the seeds for future happening of events in our this or next life. Chapter-12 is considered teachings on Bhakti-Yoga by Lord Krishna. In this chapter, Lord Krishna praises Bhakti-Yoga over JnAna Yoga due the fact that Bhakti Yoga is easier than JnAna Yoga to tread. However, what qualities He likes His Bhaktas to develop ? Let’s see :

“But those who worship me, renouncing all actions in Me, regarding Me as the Supreme Goal, meditating on Me with single minded devotion... For them whose thought is so set on Me, O Partha (another name for Arjuna), I will become very soon, the One to deliver them from this cycle of birth and death.” (Bhagwad Gita 12.6 & 12.7)

==> What are the requirements in the above verses ?
a) Renounce all actions in Lord Krishna or the Self. (Let’s remember that He is the Self residing in the heart of all beings. In Chapter-6, He uses Self in one verse and Himself in another verse for practising meditation on the Self)

What does the above mean ? “Renounce all actions” is not enough and sufficient ... it must be renounced in the Self. This means that one should abide within Self alone and should not deviate from that state of abiding in the Self.
b) “The Lord or the Self is the Supreme goal” .... this thought has to be developed. Therefore, there is no desire which should be kept preserved ... all goals should be forgotten and the only the Supreme goal must be kept in thought.
c) “Devotion to Lord/Self must be single minded” .... This can be achieved through meditation or developing devotional thoughts and discarding all other thoughts for developing such a mind focussed on the Lord/Self.

Is it different from what the JnAn Yogis try to attain ? There is not much difference, imho. JnAn Yogis meditate on Self as the Supreme. They are not bogged down with rituals but straightway try to attain single-mindedness on the Supreme Goal i.e. the Self. So, one path goes straight to the goal and the other treads a slightly round-about way to the same goal.

Let’s see some other verses from this chapter in which the Lord wants His devotees to develop :


He who hates no being, who is friendly and compassionate to all, who is free from the feeling of I and mine, even-minded in pain and pleasure and forbearing...

Ever content, steady in meditation, self controlled and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on me, such a devotee is dear to me.

He by whom the world is not afflicted and whom the world cannot afflict, he who is free from joy, anger, fear and anxiety - he is dear to me.

He who has no desires, who is pure and prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, and who is selfless in all his undertakings, he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me.

He who neither rejoices nor hates nor grieves nor desires, renouncing good and evil (treating both as the same), full of devotion, he is dear to Me.

He who is the same to foe and friend and also in honor and dishonor, who is the same in cold and heat, in pleasure and pain, who is free from attachment...

To whom blame and praise are equal, who is silent, content with anything, free of selfish attachment, steady-minded and full of devotion-such a one is dear to Me.

Those, who follow this immortal dharma described above with devotion and faith, looking upon Me as the Supreme Goal, they are exceedingly dear to Me.

(BG 12.13-20)

What do these verses say ? For being dear to the Lord we must develop the following qualities :

a) No hatred to any being but being friendly and compassionate
b) Free from “I” and “Mine” and even-mindedness in both pleasures and pains.
c) Neither affected by the world nor affect the world anyway adversely by his actions and thoughts.
d) Free from joy, anger and anxiety.
e) No desires, purity (in thoughts and actions), detached from worldly affairs
f) Should not get disturbed by the worldly happenings
g) Renounce both evil and good, full of devotion, even-mindedness in honour and dishonour, cold and heat
h) Silent, content, steady-mindedness

In fact, the JnAna Yogis too try to develop these qualities by Yama, Niyama, meditation, contemplating upon VedAntic teachings etc.

Therefore, the Bhakti-Yogi who doesn’t develop the above desired qualities as stated by God above, is actually not going in the right direction and this means that he is taking a longer route to the goal.

OM

devotee
10 November 2014, 09:33 PM
Namaste,

What do we infer with this discussion ? My views :

Our concept of spirituality need to be refined and re-defined. Spirituality must take us towards the spirit or the essence. The KAla (time) is working towards taking us all towards the spirit with the laws of Karma in action. However, our thought-patterns/mind-waves and past impressions of such mind-waves stored in our sub-consciousness decide our velocity and extent of our movement (?) towards our goal. Therefore, any spiritual practice should aim at this, imho :

a) Make us calm and at peace and fully contented. For being calm, at peace and fully contented we don't need anything external ... it is our own self which alone is sufficient for our blissful happiness. No external agent should be able to disturb our peace. It doesn't mean that we won't strive to get worldly things required for our better living but our being happy should not be affected by our desire to achieve, our action to achieve or the outcome of the action.

b) There should be no fear. The thinking that we are immortal and the body which we carry is perishable and can never be saved and therefore, we should not fear its destruction. This thinking should slowly become firmly etched in our sub-consciousness. Whatever we have is temporary and there should be no fear of losing anything. It is not that we won't take action to safeguard our things but there should be no fear of losing or any repentance on losing actually.

c) "It is all Brahman/God" and any difference seen is due to delusion caused by MAyA. So, hate no one and love all. Love God, love every being and everything.

In my humble opinion, it is all about our thought-process and everything is there in mind. If we can take care of our mind-waves, our this world and the world beyond will be automatically taken care of.

OM

devotee
12 November 2014, 10:09 PM
What is God, Self and Mind ? ... and what is "I" ?

We are all searching for God. We are aiming towards one-ness with Self. But we have neither seen God not the Self. We don't know what and where they are. We keep talking about ourselves but we have not been able to pin-pointedly locate the Self within us. This is the main reason behind all our confusion, all fights over supremacy of paths/beliefs and various forms of God. Some say that God is Lord Shiva, some say that it is Vishnu and yet some some say that it is Mother Durga, Sun God etc. In other religions there have been bitter fights over the issue of God and no bloodshed in the history has been more than what happened in the name of showing supremacy of one God-form over the others.

So, who is God and where does He reside ? Our scriptures teach us that God is infinite and is present in every pore of the universe. There is nothing in this universe which is not pervaded through and through by God. What a contradiction that God who is omnipresent is being sought by people in the temples/mosques/churches, in heaven and wherever we can search Him.

What is the need to search Him anywhere when He is present everywhere ? In fact, there is no need. We, in our delusion, keep searching Him everywhere and waste our time. When He is everywhere then it implies that He is within us. Scriptures tell us that He is there in the heart of all beings. So, if the heart is replaced by an artificial heart then what would happen to God within that heart ? "Heart" in the above statement is actually not the physical organ in the body. Here, "Heart" means "the core" .... the thing which makes "i" as "i". This is "I" thought covered in intellect and observing mind and past impressions or the individualised Consciousness, if we talk in Advaitic terms. This means that God resides within the core of Individualised Consciousness. In fact, Individualised Consciousness or the "self" is none but God in the core or essence but due to conditioning of individualised consciousness due to MAyA and past impressions, it assumes itself as a distinct individual.

It is our Mind where "I" thought arises, impressions are stored, intellect shines and new impressions are gathered. If the mind-waves of past impressions and mind-waves of current tendencies to look outward for desires, fear or whatever emotions are stilled, the "I" thought, the intellect and observing mind all merge back into Self and the Self shines. The stilled Mind "turns" into Brahman. So, Mind and Brahman are the same in essence. That is why Patanjali says, "Yogaschittvritti nirodhah" ====> The state where all mind-waves are stopped in Yoga ("getting united" with Brahman/God). That is why seekers meditate to still the mind-waves. That is why Buddhists say, "Mind itself is Buddha".

So, which is the best place to look for God ? It is our own mind. Mind in completely peaceful state where there is no agitation of past impressions and tendencies of present mind-waves is God and that should be aimed at in our spiritual practices. What is the best way to pray ? We should calm down our own mind, look within the calmness and then pray to God who is present in the calmness of mind.

************************


But how'll you reconcile it with the view- Moksha is attained only by identifying the self with Brahman ? :)

What's the liberation of those who don't think self as one with that Brahman?


Everyone is going towards liberation. Some are taking direct path and some are taking a little longer one. Everyone is none but Brahman. It is just a matter of time that he realises Himself in the calmness of his mind.

OM

devotee
14 December 2014, 11:44 PM
Can Karma be overcome by worshipping, going to pilgrims etc. ?

Being a Science student, I always believed in unbiased repeatability of an experiment for giving the same result every time if the theory of that experiment was right. What do I want to say ? If law of gravitation is right, then all experiments done based on this law will give the same result again and again irrespective of the fact who does the experiment. It cannot happen that if I do that experiment and I get one result but if someone else does the same thing, that fellow gets some different result (if the experiment has been done in the same environment and with similar parameters in the same way).

However, this fails when we apply to get this argument for having the grace of God by performing Pooja, going to pilgrims or performing some tapas etc. Some do the same thing and get what they want while the other one does the same thing and doesn't get what he wants ! What can be the reason for this ?

a) God doesn't exist and therefore there is no one sitting in heaven to answer our questions.
==> This was exactly what I deduced when I was young and started disbelieving in the existence of God !

b) God cannot change the course of Karma and there is no point going to him for changing our fate.
===> If that is true, then what God is made for and what use is He for us ?

c) God is partial and doesn't listen to everyone. He favours some and doesn't care for others.

====> God by definition cannot be partial otherwise, He can be anything but God.

Can someone share his views on this issue before I share my views ?

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
15 December 2014, 12:37 AM
Pranams Devotee Ji,

Very good questions and imo the answers are arrived at by notice of awareness within the process of any sadhana.

I think most sadhaka's, all traditions taken into account, are usually chasing after the religious experience, mostly the practice is further fueled each time we get the some type of experience. That experience in the Hindu model is known as yoga, or the feeling of connection, from yoga we then have many departments of practice, the main one being religion and the religious principles. So in many ways we can call our practice scientific, we have a hypothesis (shastra) then we have experiment (sadhana ) and finally the result, which can only be fully understood by the introspective awareness.

Within this whole process we have rules and regulations, which are the back bone of religion, especially in the early stages, but to much clinging the rules and regulations will also give some problems. Within Buddhism the process of path and realization is divided into three sections, Sila ( morality) Samadhi ( mental absorptions ) and wisdom ( insight through awareness) There are masses of subdivisions within all of the categories.

From this we then get to understand that not only is there a practice of religion but also spiritual psychology, so the process of psychological change is very important to be taken into account.

I am just using the noble eightfold path here as my reference, which I consider non denominational and can be applied and synthesized with any type of faith.

So we then have a further expounding in slightly more details to build up the frame work of practice.

The eightfold noble path is a such

Division of the Eightfold Path factors and Acquired factors of Wisdom
1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

This within Buddhism is known as right alignment of the principles and practice of Dharma.

So just like in any experiment if the conditions of the experiment is not correct then the result will be different.

Then we have the understanding of the samskaras and the klesha or mental properties and mental defilement's. Due to the laws of karma these can vary from one person to another, but the basic conditions are pretty much universal and the process and practice of dealing with the issues of conditioning will be the same, although the sadhana if practiced in the right way will vary according from one individual to another. This may differ from the empirical study as each person is a a complete subjective model in and of themselves, so the process of religion is personal and the application is to be aware of the subjective experience within the process, this will lead to a type of transcendent objective reality, where finally in the success of the scientific path of sadhana we share the same awareness.

Hope this helps

Ys

Md

devotee
15 December 2014, 09:58 PM
Namaste Markandeya,

You have written it well but that doesn't touch upon the topic of the question !

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
16 December 2014, 12:02 AM
Pranams Devotee Ji,

Then please point out why, I see it as the right answer.

Ys

Md

devotee
16 December 2014, 03:02 AM
Namaste Markandeya ji,

I read your answer again but I think in spite of writing very well, this question is not answered in your reply :

"Can Karma be overcome by worshipping, going to pilgrims etc. ?"

The basic question is the above one. To explain it further : We worship certain form of God for alleviation of our sufferings. We go to pilgrims for asking God for to fulfill our desires. We keep fast etc. for pleasing God /certain form of God.

The question is : "Does it help ?"

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
16 December 2014, 06:42 AM
Pranams,.

The answer is yes if the correct practice is in place, that is the Dharmic alignment as put forth in the noble eightfold path.

In Gita the cultivation is niskam karma yoga, to act with no attachment to the result.

People are doing all sorts of activities within religion for so many different purposes, so how can the result be the same even if the external viewing of people doing pooja, pilgrimage etc be the same.

Karma is very very complex as who knows how many births we have had, and what type of attitude we have been in when we are in the false state of doership, ( not quite sure if the word exists ). Many people are going to religious practices with some motive. In Russia when the communists wanted to win over the people they said every week you go to church and ask God for your daily bread, here take it for free from us from the government, and they did and the Church lost its power. So weak was their faith and the prayers they gave were superficial.

If part of karma is cleansed how can we fully verify it, there is one story where one devotee in ISKCON was chopping vegetables and he cut his finger quite bad and he complained to Srila Prabhupada that he thought devotional service was Karma free, Srila Prabhupada in his candid way replied you should have been killed, meaning that his karmic reaction was minimized. How can we truly verify this, its very very difficult and science will not have any type of technology to measure these things.

So i guess it comes down to sraddha and intropsect or self awareness, everything rests in the conscious experience within the process, but ultimately we can measure our progress by adopting the scientific method of sadhana and be aware of the results and constantly refining our practice best we can, then going back to Shastra to gain deeper understanding and doing our best to have pure motivation according to Shastra to gain the highest result which is freedom from samsara, but how many people actually are practicing for this purpose, most activities are tinged with material desires which is without limit due to craving.

Everything requires penance, even Lord Rama after killing Ravana did penance to set an example, nothing in this path comes cheap.

So you may or we may never really get any final objective understanding, until however we reach the other shore and see the insignificance of material bondage filled with desire.

If say there was just one practice, which there is not and everyone was in a type of stereotypical mind set approaching religious practice then it would be easier, but that's not the world we live in. So it seems to me the answer is impossible and the world of karma is far to complex to fully understand and objectify. So we may do heaps of religious practice and not get any real result, perhaps a lot of things we do in practice may actually even set us back, thats why I mentioned the Dharmic alignment and understanding the process of Sadhana alongside awareness of the spiritual psychology.

To summarize, the practice of any religious activity will produce some result, what that result will be is hard to define as the prayers and activities will be wide ranging. The only help we really should seek is the full realization of the pure self, anything less than this is not actually helping, but obviously we do ask for favours and do practice for material benefits along the way, that is also ok. If the activities of religious practice are done within the right level of practice the benefits will be apparent, but we may not always get immediately what we want. Recently I made a friend who has visited many holy places in India, he is Indian and spoke that when he was at these places he felt nothing special, he went with high expectation and felt slightly let down but kept an open mind. Many years later he said that the effect of the visiting these places he could feel a profound change in his life, although he is older now he says he visits them in his mind and he feels the power, once we get these subtle changes and notice them we will not need any verification from an outside source, we just know by default. However even if one does religious activities for some material gain or benefit to the individual based on desire then it will still bear fruit, but when who knows. The religious process is not like putting the kettle on and then waiting a few mins and we then have hot water straight away. I know many people who have lost faith because they have tried and tried and didn't seem to be getting anywhere, others I know who have felt the same thing but stuck with it have become mature and notice in profound ways the results.

I have used the teachings of the Buddha in this reply because His life very much dealt with these things, he challenged the Vedic Brahmins who wanted to do puja and let the Dieties do all the work, he refuted this practice, I am a Theist and I accept this, we dont do business, God is not our servant, not until we become fully pure. He also fasted till his stomach was stuck to the back of his spine, but again he rejected this practice as ignorance. The he saw the person testing and tuning the stringed instrument and noticed that if the strings were tight they would snap if the strings were to loose they made a strange sound, only when the strings are correctly balanced did it make the right sound.

Thats the best I can do Devotee Ji, I will wait for others to say more so I can also learn and get a better understanding :)

Ys

Md

Anirudh
21 December 2014, 07:58 PM
Can Karma be overcome by worshipping, going to pilgrims etc. ?

Being a Science student, I always believed in unbiased repeatability of an experiment for giving the same result every time if the theory of that experiment was right. What do I want to say ? If law of gravitation is right, then all experiments done based on this law will give the same result again and again irrespective of the fact who does the experiment. It cannot happen that if I do that experiment and I get one result but if someone else does the same thing, that fellow gets some different result (if the experiment has been done in the same environment and with similar parameters in the same way).

#1. However, this fails when we apply to get this argument for having the grace of God by performing Pooja, going to pilgrims or performing some tapas etc.

#2. Some do the same thing and get what they want while the other one does the same thing and doesn't get what he wants ! What can be the reason for this ?


a) God doesn't exist and therefore there is no one sitting in heaven to answer our questions.
==> This was exactly what I deduced when I was young and started disbelieving in the existence of God !

b) God cannot change the course of Karma and there is no point going to him for changing our fate.
===> If that is true, then what God is made for and what use is He for us ?

c) God is partial and doesn't listen to everyone. He favours some and doesn't care for others.

====> God by definition cannot be partial otherwise, He can be anything but God.

Can someone share his views on this issue before I share my views ?

OM

Namaste Devotee ji

I am not well read, not even Srimad Bhagavad Gita completely. When some claims to have read something completely that person shouldn't have any doubt about it. Also should be able to clarify / justify all of the intellectual objections.

I was contemplating on the questions you have raised as I can relate myself with them. Because I have had variety of experiences ranging from one pole to the other sharing all those inferences that emerged in the process of contemplation.

I am making only one assumption. The expected result should be to establish Dharma or righteousness.

During winter it takes more effort to dry clothes than during summer. The onset, intensity and duration of winter or summer depends on the place. So the effort to dry a wet cloth in Antarctica is different from India.

There could be two questions at this moment.

#1. Why there is Antarctica and India. ie Why not Antarctica or India alone?

#2. Why don't we surf in Antarctica and dry clothes in India at the same time ie why can't we experience the best of both at the same?

If eating delicious food or having sex are the best experiences can someone afford to have tongue or genitals alone? Also we should understand time taken to chew a chocolate or indulge in the act of sex are different.

We have eyes to see as well as to shed tears. We need Antarctica as well as India. We need tongue as well as genitals.

Though we have different components like tongue genitals eyes etc etc, we are identified as one single entity. Like wise we (you me Satay including the friends, enemies and others of you me and Satay) are the different componpent of ONE single entity (in my case Shreeman Naaraayan)

Eye takes seconds to identify food, Tongue takes few minutes to chew, stomach takes hours to digest, reproductive organ takes probably days to produce Semen. For each of the organ respective results are achieved at varied interval and effort.

So It is incorrect to say few get results easily and few don't.

Rest of your questions are not valid from the glass I am looking. This is my understanding.

Anirudh
21 December 2014, 08:31 PM
Namaste Devotee ji

Like us who don't discriminate among the various components of body Shreeman Naaraayan doesn't discriminate his body parts. And when we get ready treat one non performing body part (even to the extent of amputation) God takes necessary steps to treat his body parts.

Our body never question on our integrity then how can we even think that Shreeman Naaraayan will be biased with himself ?

I am open to discuss this in further details.