Love/Compassion

[satay]

Namaste,

Many times our Christian friends say proudly, “Christ teaches us love and compassion” or “We are doing this and this because the love we feel for others” or “We help the poor, look at Mother Theresa, She spent her life with the poorest of the poor.”

Let us examine this so called ‘Love’ on this thread.

I found several suggested meanings of the word at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Love , however, probably the best fit for our discussion is the following suggested meaning: “affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.”

‘Affectionate concern for the well-being of others’, no where it implies any ulterior motives e.g. it doesn’t say, love your neighbour only if he is Christian, I believe that is in line with the Christian scripture.

The reality, however, is completely and sadly, different. When I see a Christian ‘helping’ the poorest of the poor, I see an ulterior motive.

I ask this openly to all Christians here, Do you not have an ulterior motive when you help another person especially, if he or she happens to be from a poor country. Isn’t it that behind the act of ‘love’ or ‘compassion’ is the expectation that the person being helped at least consider leaving his current religion and joining the Christian fold?

Many Indian philosophers have noticed this for centuries. I am observing nothing new and I am not asking anything new here.

However, I am saying openly that yes, there is an ulterior motive behind any Christian who feels ‘Love’ for the poorest of the poor. Even mother Theresa had this ulterior motive. Note that I am not overlooking the actual monetary help provided by the western churches but saying that they have ulterior motive in ‘loving’ the poorest of the poor.

You need not answer in public on this forum if that makes you uncomfortable but just answer for yourself to yourself.

If there is a ‘motive’ hidden behind your ‘Love’ then your love is not love at all. It is a business transaction. Your understanding of ‘Love’ then is completely wrong. Your ‘Love’ then is the love of a shopkeeper (if I may borrow, Yajvan’s term here).

If you really want to spread ‘Love’ just help those in need and stop selling your dogma. Next time, you feel ‘Love’ for someone; try to act without any hidden motives.

[atanu]

Namaste,

-------
If you really want to spread ‘Love’ just help those in need and stop selling your dogma. Next time, you feel ‘Love’ for someone; try to act without any hidden motives.

About Love by Swami Vivekananda
-------
[Love may be symbolised by a triangle. The first angle is] love questions not. It is not a beggar. . . . Beggar's love is no love at all. The first sign of love is when love asks nothing, [when it] gives everything.

The second [angle of the triangle of love] is that love knows no fear. You may cut me to pieces, and I [will] still love you.

The third [angle of the love-triangle is that] love is its own end. It can never be the means. The man who says, "I love you for such and such a thing", does not love.

Om

[atanu]

About Love by Swami Vivekananda
-------
[Love may be symbolised by a triangle. The first angle is] love questions not. It is not a beggar. . . . Beggar's love is no love at all. The first sign of love is when love asks nothing, [when it] gives everything.

The second [angle of the triangle of love] is that love knows no fear. You may cut me to pieces, and I [will] still love you.

The third [angle of the love-triangle is that] love is its own end. It can never be the means. The man who says, "I love you for such and such a thing", does not love.

Om


"Love itself is the actual form of God."

Sri Ramana


How well Vivekanada and Ramana gel to define God.

Om Namah Shivaya

[satay]

right...
so anyone helping the poorest of the poor by spreading 'love' but all the while expecting them to join their club in return is not Love at all.

I am saying that the Love christianity practices is not Love at all, it is the love of hypocrites or love of a shopkeeper christians practice.

Love is unconditional.

[atanu]

right...
so anyone helping the poorest of the poor by spreading 'love' but all the while expecting them to join their club in return is not Love at all.

I am saying that the Love christianity practices is not Love at all, it is the love of hypocrites or love of a shopkeeper christians practice.

Love is unconditional.


Yes, divine Love is unconditional!

Om

[saidevo]

Namaste everyone.



Yes, divine Love is unconditional!


... also non-possessive, and altruistic!

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,
What a noble post for one on HDF to consider....
For me, and as I observe life for a 1/2 a century now, I have come to the comfort level that love is the highest level of appreciation one may have for another (person, place, thing, deva, lord, god, Brahman, etc).
My teacher has said, personal love is concentrated Universal Love. Love is Fullness, all-embracing and the unifying force of life.


It is beneath the dignity of the family of man that some 'shop out' this most delicate feeling of delight and compassion and assign it to passion of the flesh. For this we pay a high price on our society.


pranams,

[saidevo]

No one or no race or no follower of religion is perfect.


Man with a beard is a Muslim; with a textile headgear is a Sikh; a cross on the neck is a Christian; a mark on the front is a Hindu. Strip everything, and he is just a man: physiologically, psychologically and spiritually.

When would we realize that it is just one man, just like one God? I think our religious gurus should teach that man is one just like they teach God is one. The only philosophy that does this is Advaita: it goes beyond a step and teaches that man, and every other being is not only one, but is the very God Itself.

Whether we go to heaven or rot in hell or be stuck in a birth cycle, no one knows for sure. Then why make the one life here on earth hell? We can take possession of everything and may not share it with our fellow humans, but not the possession of God. How can be there a 'my God' or a 'your God'? When you and I are the same intrinsically, why not our Gods also be the same?

The problem seems to be with our gurus, rather than us the masses.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

The only philosophy that does this is Advaita: it goes beyond a step and teaches that man, and every other being is not only one, but is the very God Itself.
How can be there a 'my God' or a 'your God'? When you and I are the same intrinsically, why not our Gods also be the same? The problem seems to be with our gurus, rather than us the masses.

Namaste saidevo,
Very well said... If I may add a point or two. IN the USA, the country was built on a few principles that unfortunately have lost their way in the noise of capitalism. That is, " In God We Trust" and " all men are created equal" - If these principles were matured, we would have an Advaitian nation.

A Country based upon God , would that not be a delight! And the truth is, all men & women ARE created equally - yet many look to the material part as a measure of this truth. One tends to look at what family one comes from, how much money, status, how many cars, etc. yet forgets or does not have the tools to look deeper.
You know that we are equals (sama) because we are all an expression of the Divine. We are all equal because we are one SELF, there cannot not be two if one subscribes to Brahman and to the Advaita satyam.

So, India must lead the way - it is time for India to blossom. All that I read, this is on the way and we should see some great progress as we approach 2012. It is time to take the family of man out of Kali Yuga. How is that done? One person, family, city, state, country at a time, yet it starts with the individual. It is the unit of society ( the native jiva) that must blossom. Hense the guru's are to work here, to give one the tools to become our true SELFs. It is our respsonsibity to advance the knowledge without arm twisting... within one's Dhama as Krsna advises.

Now on this HDF we can help by continuing to advance the knoweldge for one's unfoldment. By insight , logic, direction and discussion. IN some small way we can contribute to the overall change of the family of man and take them from 'me' to 'Thee'.

pranams,

[pkmandir]

Namaste Satay Ji:
Many times our Hindu friends criticize proudly: "That Christians are helping people with a cause."

Unfortunately, I would like to ask my hindu friends why don't they help the poor. If you think others are doing with a cause and you have a better way then them, go ahead and champion the cause on your own.

What has christianity done to Indians?

Built schools, orphanages, hospitals, universities, colleges, Technical Institutes. Taught English Language to the people.

In India, when it is admission time all the Christian Schools are flocked with admission candidates from Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Budhists etc. Why did n't the Indian Businessmen people who follow the hindu religion champion literacy? Why did all the politicians leftist or rightists/ BJPS and Congress send there children to christian schools, overseas for education? It is evident that they themselves knew that the government schools were good for nothing.

It is easier to comment a good work and criticise it, rather than doing something productive. I challenge and encourage every hindu friend who views this post to do one good act a day either in the name of religion or in the name of charity. Any name doesn't matter, Educate the masses. Start orphanages for slum children. Go to the leprosy stricken homes and sit with them. Cause or no cause do a good act. Send the children who are born in US to India to do charitable work.

So far, we Indians have been accumulating millions of dollars, beautiful palatial homes in the States, great businesses, great jobs. All the wealth accumulated means nothing, if one life can not been educated, clothed or touched by means of the wealth.

I do understand that I am going a little off the tangent to the post. From a Khrisht Bhakta perspective: "Love is unconditional." I would like you to bring to my attention with solid evidence of any such things that are happening and I will be happy to confront organizations, individuals and would strongly desist them from doing any act such as these mentioned.

Thank you,
Shishya Dave





Namaste,

Many times our Christian friends say proudly, “Christ teaches us love and compassion” or “We are doing this and this because the love we feel for others” or “We help the poor, look at Mother Theresa, She spent her life with the poorest of the poor.”

Let us examine this so called ‘Love’ on this thread.

I found several suggested meanings of the word at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Love , however, probably the best fit for our discussion is the following suggested meaning: “affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.”

‘Affectionate concern for the well-being of others’, no where it implies any ulterior motives e.g. it doesn’t say, love your neighbour only if he is Christian, I believe that is in line with the Christian scripture.

The reality, however, is completely and sadly, different. When I see a Christian ‘helping’ the poorest of the poor, I see an ulterior motive.

I ask this openly to all Christians here, Do you not have an ulterior motive when you help another person especially, if he or she happens to be from a poor country. Isn’t it that behind the act of ‘love’ or ‘compassion’ is the expectation that the person being helped at least consider leaving his current religion and joining the Christian fold?

Many Indian philosophers have noticed this for centuries. I am observing nothing new and I am not asking anything new here.

However, I am saying openly that yes, there is an ulterior motive behind any Christian who feels ‘Love’ for the poorest of the poor. Even mother Theresa had this ulterior motive. Note that I am not overlooking the actual monetary help provided by the western churches but saying that they have ulterior motive in ‘loving’ the poorest of the poor.

You need not answer in public on this forum if that makes you uncomfortable but just answer for yourself to yourself.

If there is a ‘motive’ hidden behind your ‘Love’ then your love is not love at all. It is a business transaction. Your understanding of ‘Love’ then is completely wrong. Your ‘Love’ then is the love of a shopkeeper (if I may borrow, Yajvan’s term here).

If you really want to spread ‘Love’ just help those in need and stop selling your dogma. Next time, you feel ‘Love’ for someone; try to act without any hidden motives.

[satay]

Namaste Satay Ji:


Namaste (I bow to the divine in you) Shishya Dave and welcome to HDF. Dhanyavad for taking my invitation and joining us.



Many times our Hindu friends criticize proudly: "That Christians are helping people with a cause."


Yes, and rightfully so. Do you deny our criticism?

Christianity as practiced by the Christians today in the land of bharta and all over the world is in itself an evidence of our criticism.

There is a fundamental problem with the ‘intent’ of Christians helping the poorest of the poor and spreading their love.

As Mark says in 16.15-16 “Go into the world and preach the gospel to all creatures. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

This above instruction in your scripture tells us that those who are helping the poorest of the poor have a ‘cause’. This is why I for one not only question the ‘love’ Christians have for the poorest of the poor but I state it openly that Christians in fact, do have an ulterior motive.

Do you deny it?

Most Christians scholars now know this passage to be an interpolation but that is a discussion for another thread.



Unfortunately, I would like to ask my hindu friends why don't they help the poor. If you think others are doing with a cause and you have a better way then them, go ahead and champion the cause on your own.



A very good question and a great suggestion. In fact, thousands of ‘Hindu’ organizations have always been doing what you are asking us to do. However, Christian missionaries organizations seem to be doing more even though they are less in numbers in India. There are several reasons for this (read below).



What has christianity done to Indians?

Built schools, orphanages, hospitals, universities, colleges, Technical Institutes. Taught English Language to the people.


Since ‘christianity’ does not actually exist it cannot ‘build’ anything or maybe you meant to say that ‘christians’ have built schools etc. etc. for Indians. If that is what you meant then yes, you are quite correct, Christians have built those things as have all other religions. For example, I am from Punjab and Sikhs have built schools, orphanages, hospitals, universities, colleges, etc.

A better question to ask would be ‘How have Christians actually accomplished this?’ What is the source of the income to build these things? And even a better question than those is, “what exactly is the intent behind building these things?”

Christianity is losing its hold in the western countries. Churches are being boarded up here. However, westerners are now exporting this to their brethren in the east. There is enough data to support the statement that center of gravity of Christianity has shifted to the East, though America and Europe continue to be ‘paymasters.’

Let’s see what Christians have done to the rest of the world. Latin America lost its home and religion long ago and is now 97% Christian. Africa is now over 45% Christian. In certain countries like Uganda, the conversion rate is so high that it has been difficult to keep records up to date. In Nigeria, over three thousand missionaries are at work ‘helping the poorest of the poor showing their compassion’. Around 6.2 million Africans are being added annually to the Christian fold. In Asia, Philippines is 92% Christian, Korea is 32 percent.

The source of income? The ‘Guilt’ of those who can not actually practice the dogma of churchianity and rather export the dogma to the ‘poorest of the poor’ all the while showing their love and compassion.





In India, when it is admission time all the Christian Schools are flocked with admission candidates from Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Budhists etc. Why did n't the Indian Businessmen people who follow the hindu religion champion literacy? Why did all the politicians leftist or rightists/ BJPS and Congress send there children to christian schools, overseas for education? It is evident that they themselves knew that the government schools were good for nothing.



You are correct in making the observation that government schools are challenged. However, you are mixing up several issues here that range from political, societal, human psychology to Indian culture in general and have nothing to do with ‘Hinduism’. Let’s try to discuss this in another thread as time permits.




It is easier to comment a good work and criticise it, rather than doing something productive.


You are correct, it is easier to criticize, however, I am not criticizing Christian ‘love or compassion’, I am stating that it is in fact, the love of a shopkeeper or a love of a hypocrite. This is not criticism, this is supported by Gospel of Mark.


I challenge and encourage every hindu friend who views this post to do one good act a day either in the name of religion or in the name of charity. Any name doesn't matter, Educate the masses. Start orphanages for slum children. Go to the leprosy stricken homes and sit with them. Cause or no cause do a good act. Send the children who are born in US to India to do charitable work.


This is a very good challenge. In fact, several US born Indians just do that. I know of several doctors and Engineers who are doing this.



So far, we Indians have been accumulating millions of dollars, beautiful palatial homes in the States, great businesses, great jobs. All the wealth accumulated means nothing, if one life can not been educated, clothed or touched by means of the wealth.


This is good. I also believe that all Indians, especially, Hindu Indians should send money to their mother so that it can do the things you are asking us to do. That would be a small step forward in putting a stop to the rape of our mother. I have been doing my small part for a few years already, the details of which are out of the scope of this thread.



I do understand that I am going a little off the tangent to the post. From a Khrisht Bhakta perspective: "Love is unconditional." I would like you to bring to my attention with solid evidence of any such things that are happening and I will be happy to confront organizations, individuals and would strongly desist them from doing any act such as these mentioned.


There is a lot of evidence of this and I will be happy to start a new thread and post evidence so that you can go ahead and confront organizations. However, I seriously doubt that they will listen to you as they are following the instructions given by Mark.

Now, I must end with a question.

What have Indians done for Christians?

In the 4th century when the Syrian Christians were persecuted by the Sassanian rulers of Iran, where do you think some of these Christians fled to? These Christians were led by Thomas Cananeus, whose name would later get confused with that of Thomas Didymos, to the Malabar Coast. Indians gave them refuge. The generous and hospitable Hindus granted the wish of these refugees and honoured their commitment of hospitality for more than a thousand years. The Hindus also welcomed Jewish and Parsi communities. And now, the missionaries work against the peace and security of our nation.

Don’t you think that working towards destruction of the very religion which allowed your community to settle and grow, is an odd way to show your gratitude?

[saidevo]

Namaste Everyone.

Welcome, 'pkmandir', to HDF!

Satay has extensively dealt with the points you have raised, posing them as challenges. However, I have a few points to add.



From a Khrisht Bhakta perspective: "Love is unconditional."

What has christianity done to Indians?

Built schools, orphanages, hospitals, universities, colleges, Technical Institutes. Taught English Language to the people.


1. Yes, Love is unconditional, non-possessive and altruistic! Where it is not so, it is not only not divine, but needs to be dealt with.

2. What has Christianity done to Indians, following their tAraka mantra spelt out by Mark 16.15-16 and quoted by Satay?

But for the British and other European colonial rule in India, Christianity would never have taken roots here. So right from the time it made a backdoor entry in our country, it enjoyed the might of authority and the power of wealth; it was their religious calling to misuse them, which they continue to do at increasingly higher levels in post-independent India.

Pioneering 'great souls of Christianity' such as T.B. Macaulay, Friedrich Max Muller and other imperialists unashamedly, inhumanly and in the true mleccha fashion systematically worked to destroy the culture and religion in the land of Bharata in every cruel, uncivilized and deceitful way, since they could not stomach the timeless religion and culture they met with, while they happily plundered, in even worse ways than the Muslim invaders, the wealth and resources of Bharat.

-- Christian schools, colleges, universities and technical institutions owe their popularity to the bright Hindu students, yet under active support by the state and central governments seek to ban, discourage and destroy the Hindu culture and religion. But for them, our native Hindu education and technology would have flourished and taken to greater glories by the younger generation of India.

-- Christian orphanages are the den of proselytism, though I would appreciate the service of Christian hospitals and other health care units.

-- Macaulay introduced English in India to kill the use of Sanskrit and he has succeeded very well in his evil task. India still has thousands of Macaulay putras who stand for everything that he was and do everything that he did. The western culture corrupted even our leaders such as Jawaharlal Nehru who was among the architects of the post-independence India.

As more and more Christians turn gnostic and understand the true face of Christianity, individual Christian love remains as universal/personal as that of every human being, though their religion seeks to constrain it.

While the love of the Khrisht Bhakta is not different, it is an altogether different case with the Khrisht Gurus; with them it is nothing more than religious fanaticism.

[pkmandir]

Namaste (I bow to the divine in you) Shishya Dave and welcome to HDF. Dhanyavad for taking my invitation and joining us.



Namaste Satay JI: I Bow to the divinity in you Satay Ji. Dhanyavad for adding me into the religious discourses. I feel very confident that these discussions would help us learn more about each other's religion and trust that this portal would be used as a channel to promote religious harmony and World Peace. We may at many times agree to disagree on many things but, in the end "Hindi hain hum, vatan hai hindustan hamara"





Yes, and rightfully so. Do you deny our criticism?

Christianity as practiced by the Christians today in the land of bharta and all over the world is in itself an evidence of our criticism.

There is a fundamental problem with the ‘intent’ of Christians helping the poorest of the poor and spreading their love.

As Mark says in 16.15-16 “Go into the world and preach the gospel to all creatures. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

This above instruction in your scripture tells us that those who are helping the poorest of the poor have a ‘cause’. This is why I for one not only question the ‘love’ Christians have for the poorest of the poor but I state it openly that Christians in fact, do have an ulterior motive.

Do you deny it?


Yes, I do deny it. I have an exposition on Mark 16:15-16 in Hindi on pkmandir.org website, follow the broadcast links and click on Udhar Yog

Mark 16:15-16 is not a formula to Salvation, it is an authorization given to the true disciples. It does not state that you have to help the poor and baptize them. If you read it, It Clearly gives a mandate to the disciples of Lord Prabhu Khrisht: to Go in to all the world and preach the Gospel to all human kind whether rich or poor. This command is to make disciples and then if they are willing to partake in accepting Prabhu Khrisht as the Saviour of their Life they can freely do so. The Bible clearly says: We are not ask people to get the free gift of salvation. If people are interested, let them experience it for themselves. It is a free will choice. Salvation is Free but, not cheap and does not need marketing or packaging techniques to get attention. Anyone, doing so is not in the Will of God and is nowhere being the true believer of Christianity.

No human being can convict another human being of sin: The work of conviction of sins is the work of The Holy Spirit of God which, convicts the person.

What is the Gospel? The Gospel is For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten son, whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Now, the choice is upto the one who believes. So, it is evident, that choice is upto the individual: What to do and what not to do? It is upto the individual. The free will is upto the person. Of modern times, many "religious evangelists" are misusing the term for personal gains: Which is contrary to the Pavitra Bible. The God of Christianity is not a condemning God: John 3:17 clearly states: God did not send His son to condemn the World, but that the World would be saved through Him. This is not a tAraka mantra but, Udhar ka Marg (Way of Salvation) according to the Pavitra Bible.

If I am not mistaken Taraka Mantra is that which enables its invokers to cross over the ocean of samsara and attain liberation. In being a disciple of Prabhu Khrisht one is not given a priority over others, just because, they repeated certain verses. The true salvation is a life long process: The Pavitra Bible clearly declares in Philipians 2:12 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

As far as, Christians helping the poorest of poor. The Pavitra Bible clearly declares that a christian or Prabhu Khrisht Bhakta should display the Fruit of the Spirit: LOVE. According to 1 Cor 13:1,2,3,4,5. If anyone is not following the pattern of Love as shown in I Cor 13 does not have right to be a disciple of or is a True Disciple/Shishya of Prabhu Khrisht. So, it is evident, according to the light of Pavitra Bible that anyone doing it gain popularity, or procure benefits is not in the True Will of God.

I also have a thought provoking questions to my Hindu Friends: Every day Crores and Crores of Rupees are donated to the Hindu Temples in and around the world. The funds are daily being mishandled by the temple officials. There is no checks and balances. No one knows, where the money is going. I request every conscientous Hindu friend to constantly watch the flow of money where it is going, and how it is being used. Because, there is a lot of cash transactions happening every day and that money can be put to good use in good projects.

A very good question and a great suggestion. In fact, thousands of ‘Hindu’ organizations have always been doing what you are asking us to do. However, Christian missionaries organizations seem to be doing more even though they are less in numbers in India. There are several reasons for this (read below).





Since ‘christianity’ does not actually exist it cannot ‘build’ anything or maybe you meant to say that ‘christians’ have built schools etc. etc. for Indians. If that is what you meant then yes, you are quite correct, Christians have built those things as have all other religions. For example, I am from Punjab and Sikhs have built schools, orphanages, hospitals, universities, colleges, etc.


A better question to ask would be ‘How have Christians actually accomplished this?’ What is the source of the income to build these things? And even a better question than those is, “what exactly is the intent behind building these things?”


Many churches in India are self sufficient. Yes, many times some of the churches have been helped by many Indian Christians living in Foreign Countries. Also foreign mission boards have helped build schools, orphanages, churches just the same way, the fund collections happens for any hindu, sikh, jain or islamic organization. Additionally, the Government of India is very strict towards Christian Organization, all christian organizations have to go through rigorous audits to keep there incorporation and Non Profit status alive. So, the funds that are coming are legal under the eyes of law.



Christianity is losing its hold in the western countries. Churches are being boarded up here. However, westerners are now exporting this to their brethren in the east. There is enough data to support the statement that center of gravity of Christianity has shifted to the East, though America and Europe continue to be ‘paymasters.’


I would question the statement because, how can a boarded church that is going out of business be a paymaster for the Eastern Countries.



Let’s see what Christians have done to the rest of the world. Latin America lost its home and religion long ago and is now 97% Christian. Africa is now over 45% Christian. In certain countries like Uganda, the conversion rate is so high that it has been difficult to keep records up to date. In Nigeria, over three thousand missionaries are at work ‘helping the poorest of the poor showing their compassion’. Around 6.2 million Africans are being added annually to the Christian fold. In Asia, Philippines is 92% Christian, Korea is 32 percent.


In Latin America, there was a mighty revival (Jagruti), I have personally observed by the Power of Gospel: The Town Drunk became Sober. I have seen hundreds of men and women renounce the way of sinful living and living the way of Christ. I am not aware about Nigeria and hence cannot comment anything.

Philipines was already a Roman Catholic Community for the past 100 years or so. South Korea used to be a Buddhist country. In the early 70s and 80s a might revival wave of the Holy Spirit blew in the country and changed the country in to high levels of spirituality. South Korean people are very prideful people, they never took any money from the Western World, matter of fact, they spent there own money for spreading the Good News. The Power of Holy Spirit is another Thread of Discussion. Because, there is a lot to be discussed.



The source of income? The ‘Guilt’ of those who can not actually practice the dogma of churchianity and rather export the dogma to the ‘poorest of the poor’ all the while showing their love and compassion.






You are correct in making the observation that government schools are challenged. However, you are mixing up several issues here that range from political, societal, human psychology to Indian culture in general and have nothing to do with ‘Hinduism’. Let’s try to discuss this in another thread as time permits.






It is easier to comment a good work and criticise it, rather than doing something productive.
You are correct, it is easier to criticize, however, I am not criticizing Christian ‘love or compassion’, I am stating that it is in fact, the love of a shopkeeper or a love of a hypocrite. This is not criticism, this is supported by Gospel of Mark.




I challenge and encourage every hindu friend who views this post to do one good act a day either in the name of religion or in the name of charity. Any name doesn't matter, Educate the masses. Start orphanages for slum children. Go to the leprosy stricken homes and sit with them. Cause or no cause do a good act. Send the children who are born in US to India to do charitable work.
This is a very good challenge. In fact, several US born Indians just do that. I know of several doctors and Engineers who are doing this.




So far, we Indians have been accumulating millions of dollars, beautiful palatial homes in the States, great businesses, great jobs. All the wealth accumulated means nothing, if one life can not been educated, clothed or touched by means of the wealth.
This is good. I also believe that all Indians, especially, Hindu Indians should send money to their mother so that it can do the things you are asking us to do. That would be a small step forward in putting a stop to the rape of our mother. I have been doing my small part for a few years already, the details of which are out of the scope of this thread.


I do understand that I am going a little off the tangent to the post. From a Khrisht Bhakta perspective: "Love is unconditional." I would like you to bring to my attention with solid evidence of any such things that are happening and I will be happy to confront organizations, individuals and would strongly desist them from doing any act such as these mentioned.
There is a lot of evidence of this and I will be happy to start a new thread and post evidence so that you can go ahead and confront organizations. However, I seriously doubt that they will listen to you as they are following the instructions given by Mark.

Now, I must end with a question.

What have Indians done for Christians?


In the 4th century when the Syrian Christians were persecuted by the Sassanian rulers of Iran, where do you think some of these Christians fled to? These Christians were led by Thomas Cananeus, whose name would later get confused with that of Thomas Didymos, to the Malabar Coast. Indians gave them refuge. The generous and hospitable Hindus granted the wish of these refugees and honoured their commitment of hospitality for more than a thousand years. The Hindus also welcomed Jewish and Parsi communities. And now, the missionaries work against the peace and security of our nation.

Don’t you think that working towards destruction of the very religion which allowed your community to settle and grow, is an odd way to show your gratitude?



Yes, India deserves much gratitude for having been a refuge for the the Syrian Christians. Yes, Indians also welcomed the Jewish and Parsi communities. But, My dear friend, the Syrians, neither the Jewish had any part in religious conversions at all. They lived a simplistic lifestyle and minded their own business. Even today, the local statement "Anekta mein ekta" holds true to the Keralite Societies, where, Hindus, Muslims and Christians coexist without any problem. Kerala has not hear the word riots in centuries.

See, Christianity did not come to destroy religion or law. You can be a Hindu and follower of Christ, you can be a Muslim and be a follower of Christ. I know personally several Hindu friends of mine who are hindus and yet follow Christ. They are hindus by the society, but, follow Christ. It is their own personal convictions. Many sikhs wearing turbans are followers of Christ. I have asked many of them bluntly, why they follow Christ? The answer always have been knowing Prabhu Khrisht in a personal way. They have tasted and seen the hand of Prabhu Khrisht in their life and want to follow his teachings and not by coercion, force or money but, by the Unchanging Power of Prabhu Khrisht. This is the true type of salvation. Anything done for money or monetary benefits is not true salvation and people who practice such programs will never enter into the kingdom of God. PRabhu Khrisht says: "'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.' Lk 13:27

[Znanna]

Bottom line to me - do you serve your ego or do you serve Godz?


ZN

[atanu]

Originally Posted by pkmandir http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=12136#post12136)
If I am not mistaken Taraka Mantra is that which enables its invokers to cross over the ocean of samsara and attain liberation. In being a disciple of Prabhu Khrisht one is not given a priority over others, just because, they repeated certain verses. The true salvation is a life long process: The Pavitra Bible clearly declares in Philipians 2:12 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."




Namaste,

Here the rat comes out of the bag --- the hidden obnoxious value that 'my **** is not smelly, yours is'. I will not generalise anything but still this attitude is so prevalent. PK betrays it.


To gain access to Taraka or any mantra one has to go through many lives of self less karma. Why do you betray your insensitivity?

It appears that you know nothing of Bible as well. A mantra is word and the word is God. Since you cannot see beyond the flesh does not mean that others are wrong.

Enough

Om

[satay]

Namaste Satay JI: I Bow to the divinity in you Satay Ji.

Namaste Shisya Dave,

I am surprised that you ‘bow to the divine in me’. In fact, I am surprised at your whole post and the confusing message it is conveying (more on this below).
Shisya Dave, you can not bow to the ‘divine’ in me as according to your scriptures there is no such thing that exists in a man. Man by its very nature is ‘sinful’ due to Adam’s disobedience is the understanding I have from your scriptures.

Romans 7: 17-19 tells us this:
“As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.”

I am using King james version of your scripture.

‘Man is divine’ is the Vedic teaching and though I appreciate your gesture of returning my salutation; I hope that you will exercise intellectual honesty in our discussions and present the views of your scripture instead of trying to customize them to my taste.

I should clarify here that I do not claim to have an in-depth understanding of your religion though I am student of both adharmic religions because I think that every hindu should study the asuraic teachings to understand the mind set of asuras.



Dhanyavad for adding me into the religious discourses. I feel very confident that these discussions would help us learn more about each other's religion and trust that this portal would be used as a channel to promote religious harmony and World Peace. We may at many times agree to disagree on many things but, in the end "Hindi hain hum, vatan hai hindustan hamara"


Hinduism and Hindus have always been ‘for peace’ and tolerance. These are the basic tenets of Hinduism. Hindus believe that the first learning center of man is family and if there exists peace and love, respect and dignity in each family that the citizens will build a strong nation.

It is said in Atharva Veda:

“Let no brother hate his brother,
Let no sister hate her sister,
Mayest thou speak and behave
With harmony and sweetness,
Mayest thou be unanimous
With one accord.”

Rishis of Rig Veda instruct us as follows:

“May you resolve
With one accord.
May your hearts be in unison
May your thoughts be harmonious,
So that you may live together
With happiness and hilarity.”

Now, Shisya Dave, you say and hope that “this portal would be used as a channel to promote religious harmony and World Peace” yet if one reads your scriptures, Matthew tells us the following about God in Matthew (10:34-36)

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn
'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.”

Though your scriptures divide the humanity into two classes of men (those who are God’s people and those that are sinners), I agree that we should promote religious harmony; that indeed is in line with the message of the Vedas.

The passage I quoted was the following:

Mark 16.15-16

“Go into the world and preach the gospel to all creatures. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned”

My argument is that due to this instruction that is supposed to be of Jesus’ direct instruction after he allegedly rose from the dead, and the passages that
follow this passage, due to these passages, missionaries are going out and ‘preaching the gospel to all creatures’, yet, they are doing it by hook and crook, by destroying cultures, destroying families, destroying nations and they are doing it (i.e. preaching) in the guise of helping the poorest of the poor.



Yes, I do deny it. I have an exposition on Mark 16:15-16 in Hindi on pkmandir.org website, follow the broadcast links and click on Udhar Yog


I followed the link as suggested but didn’t find your version of the passage. I realize that there may be many hundreds or even thousands of versions each devoted to its sect of your scriptures, but may I suggest that we stick with the King James version, as I only have access to that version? Please advise…




Mark 16:15-16 is not a formula to Salvation,


I realize that Mark has not given us the formula to salvation. It is indeed a doctrine of damnation of non-believers. As Mark says in 16:16
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

The formula for salvation is given to us by John in John 14:6-7
“Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."”



it is an authorization given to the true disciples. It does not state that you have to help the poor and baptize them. If you read it, It Clearly gives a mandate to the disciples of Lord Prabhu Khrisht: to Go in to all the world and preach the Gospel to all human kind whether rich or poor. This command is to make disciples and then if they are willing to partake in accepting Prabhu Khrisht as the Saviour of their Life they can freely do so.


As a non-believer in your scriptures, I have several problems (as you can probably imagine) with this ‘command’.

First, Christian scholars believe that most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16: 9-20 anywhere. Nevertheless, before we even go there, even Jesus’ existence let alone his death and then rising is questionable and has not being proven as far as I know. Therefore, the very source of this ‘authorization’ or ‘command’ is questionable.

Secondly, just because you or some other missionaries package the old merchandise into new packing does not mean that Hindus or anyone else for that matter will buy what you are selling.

I realize that your religion has failed to reap a rich harvest among the Hindu heathens and that you are with your efforts of pkmandir.org might be following the larger plan of ‘Indigenization or Inculturation’, however, simply putting a new package around the old imperialist dogma and calling Jesus prabhu krisht doesn’t mean that we will buy it.

Thirdly, I must sincerely, ask you to take a deeper look at Mark’s command or authorization. When I consider this command from a deeper angle, the whole business of ‘preaching the gospel’ looks like a bigoted idea, a denial of God and his workings in others. It makes the missionaries look like any vendor of goods, personally my favorite (or not) are insurance sales people. I realize that for you the comparison might not stand out but for me as I look from an outsider’s angle, I do not see any difference between anyone following this supposed command and an insurance salesman.



The Bible clearly says: We are not ask people to get the free gift of salvation..


Could you please provide the quotes from your scriptures on this? I am not questioning you…I just want to have them for future reference.



If people are interested, let them experience it for themselves. It is a free will choice


That begs the question of why not let God do his work himself to begin with. Why does he need salesmen to peddle his message? Is God so incompetent that he cannot manage his own affairs that he must take help in the, oh so sinful man who is ‘inherently’ sinful to convince other so inherently sinful men of his message?
If it were up to the old satay, missionaries like yourself would have gotten the same response that salespeople used to get and that is, “Get the #$%@ off my property” but as you can see, I am a Hindu now, and so as instructed in the Gita (the real one), I must give peace a chance.

Shisya Dave, do you see where I am going with this?



Salvation is Free but, not cheap and does not need marketing or packaging techniques to get attention. Anyone, doing so is not in the Will of God and is nowhere being the true believer of Christianity.


Then my dear Shisya Dave, you are not a true beliver of Christianity as you yourself have packaged the old merchandise with the new package by calling it prabhu kristhi.

Please try to be sincere to at least to yourself first.



No human being can convict another human being of sin: The work of conviction of sins is the work of The Holy Spirit of God which, convicts the person.


You must be talking about the God of your scriptures because God as we understand is does not convict or condemn anyone.

God tells us:
“Those who worship anya devta or other gods, with devotion, worship me” Gita 9.23

The rishi of Yajur Veda tells us:

“He who performs selfless action
Accompanied by auspicious words
Full of truth, joy and sweetness
In the atmosphere of mutual co-operation
Reaches the goal.”



What is the Gospel? The Gospel is For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten son, whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Now, the choice is upto the one who believes. So, it is evident, that choice is upto the individual: What to do and what not to do? It is upto the individual. The free will is upto the person. Of modern times, many "religious evangelists" are misusing the term for personal gains: Which is contrary to the Pavitra Bible. The God of Christianity is not a condemning God: John 3:17 clearly states: God did not send His son to condemn the World, but that the World would be saved through Him. This is not a tAraka mantra but, Udhar ka Marg (Way of Salvation) according to the Pavitra Bible.


Yes, I realize that the God of your scriptures seem to be contradicting himself.

Shisya Dave, do you think that it could be because he chose the so inherently sinful man to peddle his message?

While John says one thing in chapter 3, he says another in 15:6 about God’s message:

“If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned”

Do you think Shisya Dave that your prabhu krisht would have told John this above passage? Do you think that prabhu krisht or whatever you want to call him/it would have the non-believers be burnt in fire?

And again as I said earlier, Mark condemns the disbelievers in 16:16.



If I am not mistaken Taraka Mantra is that which enables its invokers to cross over the ocean of samsara and attain liberation.


Yes, Shisya Dave, you are mistaken, however, that is not your first mistake. Nevertheless, I am not the God of your scriptures so I shall forgive you and not condemn you to the fire pit for eternity for this simple mistake of showing ignorance. We can discuss Tararka elsewhere in another thread.
For now, let’s keep focus on ‘christians helping the poorest of the poor’ and my allegation that you do it because you have a ‘motive’ and thus you (used in general sense here) are a hypocrite and your love is the love of shopkeeper because you want to follow the command of Mark.



In being a disciple of Prabhu Khrisht one is not given a priority over others, just because, they repeated certain verses. The true salvation is a life long process: The Pavitra Bible clearly declares in Philipians 2:12 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

As far as, Christians helping the poorest of poor. The Pavitra Bible clearly declares that a christian or Prabhu Khrisht Bhakta should display the Fruit of the Spirit: LOVE. According to 1 Cor 13:1,2,3,4,5. If anyone is not following the pattern of Love as shown in I Cor 13 does not have right to be a disciple of or is a True Disciple/Shishya of Prabhu Khrisht. So, it is evident, according to the light of Pavitra Bible that anyone doing it gain popularity, or procure benefits is not in the True Will of God.


Perhaps a creed is best known by what it does when it holds political sway so therefore, let us look at the history. As soon as Christianity came into power, heathen temples were defaced cand closed and their revenues transferred to church. “We command that all their (‘heathans’) fanes, temples, shrines, if even now any remain entire shall be destroyed by the command of the magistrates” was the order of the day (Theodosius Code, 380 AD).

Same methods were applied when Christianity moved to the north of Europe. In Britain and Germany, priests and monks moved about destroying the groves and shrines of the people. During medieval times, the church taught that the pope was “almost God on earth” and therefore, the earth’s sovereignty also belonged to him. In the capacity of a overlord, he gave away the newly-discovered Americas to the Spanish king and the Eastern part of the world to King Alfonso of Portugal, "the right total and absolute, to invade, conquer and subjugate all the countries which are under the enemies of Christ, Saracene and pagan."

I believe, Shisya Dave that we will run out of space on HDF if I started listing the acts of the true disciples of your religion.

I don’t know what to say of a religion that teaches in and through its scriptures and its literature, systematic hatred of all other religions and believes that it has a monopoly on the truth and God.



I also have a thought provoking questions to my Hindu Friends: Every day Crores and Crores of Rupees are donated to the Hindu Temples in and around the world. The funds are daily being mishandled by the temple officials. There is no checks and balances. No one knows, where the money is going. I request every conscientous Hindu friend to constantly watch the flow of money where it is going, and how it is being used. Because, there is a lot of cash transactions happening every day and that money can be put to good use in good projects.


Let’s discuss this political issue on another thread.



Many churches in India are self sufficient.


Could you please post some links and addresses of these churches? I would like to contact them and find out about their finances.



Yes, many times some of the churches have been helped by many Indian Christians living in Foreign Countries. Also foreign mission boards have helped build schools, orphanages, churches just the same way, the fund collections happens for any hindu, sikh, jain or islamic organization.


The truth of the matter, Shisya Dave, is that without the help of foreign financing, Indian churches will drop like a house of cards. Lets look at some facts, Last year (2006), World Vision, an American Evangelical agency, with a budget of 2.1 Billion US dollars, spent 1.738 Billion US dollars on its international programs.



Additionally, the Government of India is very strict towards Christian Organization, all christian organizations have to go through rigorous audits to keep there incorporation and Non Profit status alive. So, the funds that are coming are legal under the eyes of law.


And I trust that the audits are even more rigorous for any organization that does Dharma parchar or has anything ‘Hindu’ associated with it.
I for one do not buy your sob story of Gov’t of India being very tough on Christian organizations. To the contrary, Christians and other minorities have always enjoyed the corrupted secularist agendas of all Gov’t political parties including Nehru’s. But I digress, because I don’t want to shift the focus.



I would question the statement because, how can a boarded church that is going out of business be a paymaster for the Eastern Countries.


As you live in Columbus, you must have observed this phenomenon. No?
Churches are being boarded up because more and more Christians are finding that the dogma of Christianity does not satisfy their spiritual hunger so they stop going to the church. However, there is the guilt factor and ‘church’ is only one part of the whole propaganda machine. There are other specialized institutions whose sole purpose is to oil the machine and churn out theologians, print books, run Radio and TV stations and run Foreign missionary training centers.



In Latin America, there was a mighty revival (Jagruti), I have personally observed by the Power of Gospel: The Town Drunk became Sober.


Many drunks become sober and meat eaters become vegetarians by the thousands when touched by the power of divine. I have seen this happening with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists even Muslims. How is this different and a special case in Christianity?



I have seen hundreds of men and women renounce the way of sinful living and living the way of Christ. I am not aware about Nigeria and hence cannot comment anything.


So are hundreds of Sikhs that take the ‘Amrit’ at the Golden temple every day, moved by the power of divine, hundreds of westerners becoming pure vegetarians following satvic bhojan and satvic life style everyday touched by either Hinduism or Buddhism.




Philipines was already a Roman Catholic Community for the past 100 years or so. South Korea used to be a Buddhist country. In the early 70s and 80s a might revival wave of the Holy Spirit blew in the country and changed the country in to high levels of spirituality. South Korean people are very prideful people, they never took any money from the Western World, matter of fact, they spent there own money for spreading the Good News.


Yet, with all the money flowing into Indian churches and all the pompous phrases, long faces, sob stories, invoking of Holy Spirit or inventing the spurious labels to fool Hindu masses into the asuraic tradition has failed in the land of Bharata.
This fact, must frustrate the Vatican, don’t you think?



The Power of Holy Spirit is another Thread of Discussion. Because, there is a lot to be discussed.


Yes. I have been told that the Holy Spirit is something of a mystery. I am all ears for a good mystery.




Yes, India deserves much gratitude for having been a refuge for the the Syrian Christians. Yes, Indians also welcomed the Jewish and Parsi communities. But, My dear friend, the Syrians, neither the Jewish had any part in religious conversions at all. They lived a simplistic lifestyle and minded their own business. Even today, the local statement "Anekta mein ekta" holds true to the Keralite Societies, where, Hindus, Muslims and Christians coexist without any problem. Kerala has not hear the word riots in centuries.


Okay, I take your word for it.



See, Christianity did not come to destroy religion or law. You can be a Hindu and
follower of Christ, you can be a Muslim and be a follower of Christ.


This must be the new policy of your organization. I suppose it is dictated by new political climate and new economic factors. Again, I would encourage you and other members of this forum to go back to the history and check the facts.

Please provide support for your statements from your scripture.

Hindus pray to murthis, which is forbidden by your scripture so I don’t see how a hindu can be a follower of Christ. He can be a student of your religion but not a follower. Or has the church, in frustration now allowed the puja of christ’s idol in churches?



I know personally several Hindu friends of mine who are hindus and yet follow Christ.
They are hindus by the society, but, follow Christ. It is their own personal convictions. Many sikhs wearing turbans are followers of Christ. I have asked many of them bluntly, why they follow Christ? The answer always have been knowing Prabhu Khrisht in a personal way. They have tasted and seen the hand of Prabhu Khrisht in their life and want to follow his teachings and not by coercion, force or money but, by the Unchanging Power of Prabhu Khrisht.


Yesterday, I saw a pig flying.



This is the true type of salvation. Anything done for money or monetary benefits is not true salvation and people who practice such programs will never enter into the kingdom of God. PRabhu Khrisht says: "'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.' Lk 13:27


Ahem…I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no ‘kingdom of God’ but that’s a discussion for another thread. Wouldn’t you agree?

Enough for today.

[pkmandir]

Ge 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Ge 1:27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man is divine. Because of His creation

[pkmandir]

[quote=satay;12198]Namaste Shisya Dave,

I am surprised that you ‘bow to the divine in me’. In fact, I am surprised at your whole post and the confusing message it is conveying (more on this below).
Shisya Dave, you can not bow to the ‘divine’ in me as according to your scriptures there is no such thing that exists in a man. Man by its very nature is ‘sinful’ due to Adam’s disobedience is the understanding I have from your scriptures.

Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Romans 7: 17-19 tells us this:
“As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.”

I am using King james version of your scripture.

‘Man is divine’ is the Vedic teaching and though I appreciate your gesture of returning my salutation; I hope that you will exercise intellectual honesty in our discussions and present the views of your scripture instead of trying to customize them to my taste.

I should clarify here that I do not claim to have an in-depth understanding of your religion though I am student of both adharmic religions because I think that every hindu should study the asuraic teachings to understand the mind set of asuras.



Hinduism and Hindus have always been ‘for peace’ and tolerance. These are the basic tenets of Hinduism. Hindus believe that the first learning center of man is family and if there exists peace and love, respect and dignity in each family that the citizens will build a strong nation.

It is said in Atharva Veda:

“Let no brother hate his brother,
Let no sister hate her sister,
Mayest thou speak and behave
With harmony and sweetness,
Mayest thou be unanimous
With one accord.”

Rishis of Rig Veda instruct us as follows:

“May you resolve
With one accord.
May your hearts be in unison
May your thoughts be harmonious,
So that you may live together
With happiness and hilarity.”

Now, Shisya Dave, you say and hope that “this portal would be used as a channel to promote religious harmony and World Peace” yet if one reads your scriptures, Matthew tells us the following about God in Matthew (10:34-36)

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn
'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.”

The Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword
(Hebrews 4:12). The gospel of peace first brings warfare into the soul. It cuts through old habits; it opposes darling sins; it sets nil a new standard
at variance with what was loved in the past. The old Adam will not die
without a struggle; he fights against the new man. Thus the heart of the Christian becomes a battle-field. To refuse to resist temptation for the sake of peace and quiet is to be unfaithful to Christ, who only gives peace through a faithful endurance of conflict

I followed the link as suggested but didn’t find your version of the passage. I realize that there may be many hundreds or even thousands of versions each devoted to its sect of your scriptures, but may I suggest that we stick with the King James version, as I only have access to that version? Please advise…
podcast.pkmandir.org
Udhar Yog The First Message

The formula for salvation is given to us by John in John 14:6-7
“Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."”

Yes, Jesus Christ is the Way, The Truth and the Life for me.

As a non-believer in your scriptures, I have several problems (as you can probably imagine) with this ‘command’.

First, Christian scholars believe that most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16: 9-20 anywhere. Nevertheless, before we even go there, even Jesus’ existence let alone his death and then rising is questionable and has not being proven as far as I know. Therefore, the very source of this ‘authorization’ or ‘command’ is questionable.

Yes this is a debatable issue.

Secondly, just because you or some other missionaries package the old merchandise into new packing does not mean that Hindus or anyone else for that matter will buy what you are selling.

Scriptures are available for their ready reference and usage. So, "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free." Knowing the Truth alone will set anyone free.

Jamuna ganga theerath nahay
Phir bhi Dil hain maila
Pap ke daag mit na sakey
Pap ka bandan na thoda gaya


pkmandir.org might be following the larger plan of ‘Indigenization or Inculturation’, however, simply putting a new package around the old imperialist dogma and calling Jesus prabhu krisht doesn’t mean that we will buy it.

Prabhu khrisht Mandir is not an indigenization or inculturation, it will be Holy Spirit Empowered movement. Please check our website for more details. Jesus is Prabhu Khrisht in Hindi. By the way, many Hindu Friends think to worship Jesus you must know English. I guess that is a misconception. Jesus can be worshipped in any language and at Prabhu Khrisht we worship Jesus using our very own Matra Bhasha Hindi. Each gathering has Bhajans in Hindi, Discourses in Hindi.



Thirdly, I must sincerely, ask you to take a deeper look at Mark’s command or authorization. When I consider this command from a deeper angle, the whole business of ‘preaching the gospel’ looks like a bigoted idea, a denial of God and his workings in others. It makes the missionaries look like any vendor of goods, personally my favorite (or not) are insurance sales people. I realize that for you the comparison might not stand out but for me as I look from an outsider’s angle, I do not see any difference between anyone following this supposed command and an insurance salesman.



Could you please provide the quotes from your scriptures on this? I am not questioning you…I just want to have them for future reference.



That begs the question of why not let God do his work himself to begin with. Why does he need salesmen to peddle his message? Is God so incompetent that he cannot manage his own affairs that he must take help in the, oh so sinful man who is ‘inherently’ sinful to convince other so inherently sinful men of his message?
If it were up to the old satay, missionaries like yourself would have gotten the same response that salespeople used to get and that is, “Get the #$%@ off my property” but as you can see, I am a Hindu now, and so as instructed in the Gita (the real one), I must give peace a chance.

Shisya Dave, do you see where I am going with this?

Satay Ji, you are great person. You are displaying the fruit of patience with your glorious act. You are an exemplary example of the old saying
Atheethi satkar gheeyo bhavti.



Then my dear Shisya Dave, you are not a true beliver of Christianity as you yourself have packaged the old merchandise with the new package by calling it prabhu kristhi.

Again it is Prabhu Khrisht not Krishti. I will most gladly give you a copy of the Hindi Bible, if you would require for your personal reference to read it yourself. Additionally, you can also read hindi bible at www.hindibible.org (http://www.hindibible.org)

Please try to be sincere to at least to yourself first.

Yes, we as a movement trust God and are sincere to ourself. As you may be unaware.

You must be talking about the God of your scriptures because God as we understand is does not convict or condemn anyone.

God tells us:
“Those who worship anya devta or other gods, with devotion, worship me” Gita 9.23

The rishi of Yajur Veda tells us:

“He who performs selfless action
Accompanied by auspicious words
Full of truth, joy and sweetness
In the atmosphere of mutual co-operation
Reaches the goal.”



Yes, I realize that the God of your scriptures seem to be contradicting himself.

Shisya Dave, do you think that it could be because he chose the so inherently sinful man to peddle his message?

While John says one thing in chapter 3, he says another in 15:6 about God’s message:

“If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned”

This passage is for believers of Christ: Let me give an explanation on that:
TO BEAR FRUIT, IS THE END OF TRUE RELIGION, AND THE
RESULT AND PROOF OF SPIRITUAL LIFE. When substituted for
faith, “doing” is bad; but when it is the effect of faith, it is good and
precious. Where do we look for evidence of the goodness of the tree? Is it
not sought in fruit, good fruit, much fruit? The doing, or fruit-bearing, here
commended by the Lord Jesus, is the performance of the will of God, is the
imitation of the Master’s own example, is the fulfillment of the behests of
an enlightened conscience. It comprises personal holiness and active
usefulness.
UNION WITH CHRIST IS THEREFORE UNSPEAKABLY
PRECIOUS, AND FOR THE CHRISTIAN ABSOLUTELY NEEDFUL.
As to the nature of this connection, there should be no misunderstanding.
External privileges and professions are all insufficient. A spiritual and vital
union is necessary, such as in the vegetable kingdom joins the branch to the
vine-stock, such as in architecture unites the temple to its foundation. This
union is effected on the human side by a believing reception of the gospel
of Christ; on the Divine side by the impartation of the quickening Spirit of
God. Such union is capable of increase in degree; a closer spiritual
fellowship with the Divine Redeemer is the means of increased fitness for
holy and acceptable service.

And again as I said earlier, Mark condemns the disbelievers in 16:16.



Yes, Shisya Dave, you are mistaken, however, that is not your first mistake. Nevertheless, I am not the God of your scriptures so I shall forgive you and not condemn you to the fire pit for eternity for this simple mistake of showing ignorance. We can discuss Tararka elsewhere in another thread.
For now, let’s keep focus on ‘christians helping the poorest of the poor’ and my allegation that you do it because you have a ‘motive’ and thus you (used in general sense here) are a hypocrite and your love is the love of shopkeeper because you want to follow the command of Mark.



Perhaps a creed is best known by what it does when it holds political sway so therefore, let us look at the history. As soon as Christianity came into power, heathen temples were defaced cand closed and their revenues transferred to church. “We command that all their (‘heathans’) fanes, temples, shrines, if even now any remain entire shall be destroyed by the command of the magistrates” was the order of the day (Theodosius Code, 380 AD).

Same methods were applied when Christianity moved to the north of Europe. In Britain and Germany, priests and monks moved about destroying the groves and shrines of the people. During medieval times, the church taught that the pope was “almost God on earth” and therefore, the earth’s sovereignty also belonged to him. In the capacity of a overlord, he gave away the newly-discovered Americas to the Spanish king and the Eastern part of the world to King Alfonso of Portugal, "the right total and absolute, to invade, conquer and subjugate all the countries which are under the enemies of Christ, Saracene and pagan."

See in the Name of Religion there were great wars. This was all a political strategy in the name of religion. If you read it carefully, in the end each leading team ended up making there own empire under the guise of God. Something, like our Ayodhya Deal. In the name of religion people were churned and the rivers of blood flowed. These people who stirred up wars are True ENEMIES OF CHRIST.


I believe, Shisya Dave that we will run out of space on HDF if I started listing the acts of the true disciples of your religion.

The true disciples of Christianity were martyred. Read Church History. The Blood of Apostle Thomas one of the disciples of Lord Jesus Christ still cries out from the Land of India. Australian Missionary: Graham Staines and his two sons burnt alive Jan 1999 in Orissa. Many millions who gave their life, tortured, burnt alive to Stake, lit as torches. They were faithful till the death.

I don’t know what to say of a religion that teaches in and through its scriptures and its literature, systematic hatred of all other religions and believes that it has a monopoly on the truth and God.

Christianity never taught hatred. Read the New Testament: WHere the Birth of Christianity happened. Please send me places, where hatred has been mentioned towards other religion in New Testament.

Could you please post some links and addresses of these churches? I would like to contact them and find out about their finances.

I can send plenty of addresses of self supporting churches on a personal promise that none of this people would be harrassed in any way. I will try to send a personal post to you on this matter.

The truth of the matter, Shisya Dave, is that without the help of foreign financing, Indian churches will drop like a house of cards. Lets look at some facts, Last year (2006), World Vision, an American Evangelical agency, with a budget of 2.1 Billion US dollars, spent 1.738 Billion US dollars on its international programs.

World Vision does not support churches. It promotes childrens programs, education and literacy programs. None of the world vision center are doing any sort of religious conversions. Please check with them on a personal basis. You are free to see the details of every program they are undertaking. It is public information. Indian Church will never drop like a house of Cards: Jesus Christ said: "I will build my church upon the rock and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. " Voltaire said within 100 years there will be no trace of Christianity or the Bible. Today Voltaire is long gone: his house sold at an auction Houses the International Bible Society. So, Satay Ji, Time alone can substantiate your statement. The Church in India is on Christ the Solid Rock! And it is not sinking Sand.





And I trust that the audits are even more rigorous for any organization that does Dharma parchar or has anything ‘Hindu’ associated with it.
I for one do not buy your sob story of Gov’t of India being very tough on Christian organizations. To the contrary, Christians and other minorities have always enjoyed the corrupted secularist agendas of all Gov’t political parties including Nehru’s. But I digress, because I don’t want to shift the focus.

Jis ke par na padi bivai, woh kya jane peer padai.

As you live in Columbus, you must have observed this phenomenon. No?
Churches are being boarded up because more and more Christians are finding that the dogma of Christianity does not satisfy their spiritual hunger so they stop going to the church. However, there is the guilt factor and ‘church’ is only one part of the whole propaganda machine. There are other specialized institutions whose sole purpose is to oil the machine and churn out theologians, print books, run Radio and TV stations and run Foreign missionary training centers.



Many drunks become sober and meat eaters become vegetarians by the thousands when touched by the power of divine. I have seen this happening with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists even Muslims. How is this different and a special case in Christianity?

Could be possible. I am yet to see Solid Proof. Seeing is believing.

So are hundreds of Sikhs that take the ‘Amrit’ at the Golden temple every day, moved by the power of divine, hundreds of westerners becoming pure vegetarians following satvic bhojan and satvic life style everyday touched by either Hinduism or Buddhism.

Yes many westerners have become vegeterians even without religious choices too.

Yet, with all the money flowing into Indian churches and all the pompous phrases, long faces, sob stories, invoking of Holy Spirit or inventing the spurious labels to fool Hindu masses into the asuraic tradition has failed in the land of Bharata.

My dear Friend Satay Ji: Christ is touching the hearts of thousands of Indians, regardless of caste, color or creed.

Yes. I have been told that the Holy Spirit is something of a mystery. I am all ears for a good mystery.

In my future posts on my website, I will be discussing on the Holy Spirit.

Okay, I take your word for it.



This must be the new policy of your organization. I suppose it is dictated by new political climate and new economic factors. Again, I would encourage you and other members of this forum to go back to the history and check the facts.

Please provide support for your statements from your scripture.

Hindus pray to murthis, which is forbidden by your scripture so I don’t see how a hindu can be a follower of Christ. He can be a student of your religion but not a follower. Or has the church, in frustration now allowed the puja of christ’s idol in churches?

I will be happy to send DVDs of real people and real followers of Christ. You can have it for your viewing. I will ship it to you, if you send me an email of your address. shishya@pkmandir.org Again, I will never visit you nor any person will knock at your door for anything. We respect your privacy.

there is no ‘kingdom of God’ but that’s a discussion for another thread. Wouldn’t you agree?

There is a Kingdom of God. Experience for yourself.

[atanu]

There is total intermingling of quotes and replies, exemplifying real union -- can't find the boundaries. Difficult to read though.


Om

[satay]

namaste pkmandir,
Please format the message by fixing the quote tags, I can't follow what is written.
To 'quote' me for example, put the following word quote in square brackets at the start of the text, and then end the text that you are quoting with the word /quote with square brackets around it.

please pm me if you have questions.
thanks,

[saidevo]

The true disciples of Christianity were martyred. Read Church History. The Blood of Apostle Thomas one of the disciples of Lord Jesus Christ still cries out from the Land of India.


This is a blatant lie unashamedly spread by the Christian missionaries in India and has no backing from Vatican, but it never seems to die in India! St. Thomas, the Apostle, never visited India! The Santhome church on the seashore in Chennai is built over the destruction of the famous Shiva temple, the Kapali temple, in Mylapore, Chennai, by the Portugese missionaries killing hundreds of brahmins in the process. Several other churches in Chennai also were built by destroying Hindu temples. Just imagine the perversity and cruelty in documenting the lie as an important event in Christian history and spreading it even today long after it has been disproved.

In the recent sunami on the Christmas eve, 2004, a part of the Santhome church was damaged; the digging for renovation exposed some underlying Hindu religious symbols. The matter was promptly hushed up.

For the gory details of the story, check the Website http://www.hamsa.org/, which is specially formed to refute this story and proclaim the truth.


According to Christian leaders in India, the apostle Thomas came to India in 52 A.D., founded the Syrian Christian Church, and was killed by the fanatical Brahmins in 72 A.D. Near the site of his martyrdom, the St. Thomas Church was built.

In fact this apostle never came to India. The Christian community in South India was founded by a merchant Thomas Cananeus in 345 A.D. (a name which readily explains the Thomas legend).

In Catholic universities in Europe, the myth of the apostle Thomas going to India is no longer taught as history, but in India it is still considered useful.

Hamsa.org explores how the myth of Saint Thomas in India arose and why it has been perpetuated despite the absence of any historical basis in truth.


This Website also has a revealing book titled Jesus Christ: An Artifice for Aggression written by Sita Ram Goel, one of the noble sons of India who exposed Christianity for what it is.



Jesus is Prabhu Khrisht in Hindi.


Another cat is out of the bag! How many more does Shisya Dave have?

The term Krisht sounds in consonance with Krishna, so this is a dirty trick of saying that 'Krisht is none but your Krishna'. Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus defines the term Christ as:

1 the Messiah whose appearance is prophesied in the Old Testament
2 Jesus of Nazareth, regarded by Christians as the realization of the Messianic prophecy: originally a title (Jesus the Christ), later used as part of the name (Jesus Christ)

So Christ is just a title for Jesus of Nazareth whose very historical existence is questioned by the gnostic Christian scholarship. The Son takes the title of the Father and then masquerades as the Father by his supposedly advaitic statement in the Bible 'I and my Father are the same', a favourite quote of our friend Nirotu (are you there, my friend; come on, do join the discussion).

While the Westerners take pride in the term Jesus (and use it for situtations ranging from the most spiritualistic to the most profane and even vulgar), the Church prefers the term Christ for India, Krisht (Hindi), Kristhu and Karthar (Tamil) more than the term Jesus (Jesu, Yesu), as another example of 'Indigenization and/or Inculturation'.

In the same way, the Church people unshamedly tell the gullible fishermen living on the seashores of Tamilnadu, 'our Mary is none other than your Mariamma' (the village goddess, a form of Shakti). Not just that. In Andhra Pradesh and elsewhere they asked the Hindus to destroy the images of their gods and give up their religions symbolism, as true followers of Francis Xavier, who said:



St. Francis Xavier, after whom many educational institutions are named in India, feverishly declared, "When I have finished baptising the people, I order them to destory the huts in which they keep their idols; and I have them break the statues of their idols into tiny pieces, since they are now Christians. I could never come to an end describing to you the great consolation which fills my soul when I see idols being destroyed by the hands of those who had been idolaters," (from The Letters and Instructions of Francis Xavier, 1993, pp 117-8).

(http://www.indpride.com/didyouknow.html)


The 'Indigenization and/or Inculturation' today has reached such absurd heights as calling the churches mandirs/ashrams, calling the priests gurus, their Jesus as Prabhu (as does our friend Shisya Dave here) and even chanting Sanskrit mantras like 'Om Krishtaya namaH'. What does the Bible know of the meaning, sacredness and power of mantras? Does it have any of its equivalent, even in its original Hebrew, Greek or Latin forms?

Our friend's Website http://www.pkmandir.org/ seems, prima facie, a last-ditch effort of 'Indigenization and/or Inculturation', which has no backing from Vatican, except perhaps as a pretext to harvest souls from the Asian soil.

[pkmandir]

Namaste Saidevo:

[The term Krisht sounds in consonance with Krishna, so this is a dirty trick of saying that 'Krisht is none but your Krishna'. Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus defines the term Christ as:]

Please read www.hindibible.org (http://www.hindibible.org) and find it for yourself. New Testament was written in Greek. Jesus is referred to as Essoos (Yeshu in Hindi) Christos (Khrisht in Hindi). I cannot explain you any better than this. Check it out for yourself. Khrisht and Krishna are two different people. Hence, not a trick. I can scan portions of the Bible and show prove it to you.

[pkmandir]

Namaste Satay Ji:
Per your request, I am sending the link. This is a 4 Minute Download.

Check Podcast.pkmandir.org

A Video upload Brahmin Priest Ram Babu finds Salvation in Christ.

[satay]

Namaste Satay Ji:
Per your request, I am sending the link. This is a 4 Minute Download.

Check Podcast.pkmandir.org

A Video upload Brahmin Priest Ram Babu finds Salvation in Christ.

Could you please fix your previous message to me so that it shows my text in quote tags?

[saidevo]

Namaste Sishya Dave.



[The term Krisht sounds in consonance with Krishna, so this is a dirty trick of saying that 'Krisht is none but your Krishna'. Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus defines the term Christ as:]

Please read www.hindibible.org (http://www.hindibible.org) and find it for yourself. New Testament was written in Greek. Jesus is referred to as Essoos (Yeshu in Hindi) Christos (Khrisht in Hindi). I cannot explain you any better than this. Check it out for yourself. Khrisht and Krishna are two different people. Hence, not a trick. I can scan portions of the Bible and show prove it to you.


It is good that you have not denied that the term Christ is only a title, not a name for Jesus of Nazareth. Now, 'prabhu' is the equivalent of the title Lord. So 'Prabhu Krisht' is an ugly conjunction of two titles, without the actual name of the person being referred to. This is as cheap as the politicians in Tamilnadu using juxtaposed titles to refer to their leaders, being affraid of using their actual names: examples of such usages are 'Doctor Kalignar' for Karunanidhi, 'Doctor Puratchi Thalaivi' for Jayalalitha, 'Doctor Ayya' for Ramadoss and so on.

In my opinion, 'Prabhu Yeshu' or 'Prabhu Jesu' would be a better way to refer to the most popular religious prophet, though it is a sort of a giveaway.

Generally, Christians are too eager to compare Christ with Krishna; there are several examples for this on the Net, as you would be aware. This perhaps originated with Paramahansa Yoganantha talking about God Consciousness as Christ Consciousness and Krishna Consciousness in the U.S. The comparison has today turned into a cliché, so it is futile to deny that the terms Krisht and Krishna do not connote.

I would admit, however, that Krisht would be better than the term Karthar used in Tamil, which has an ugly connotation to the Sanskrit term 'kartha' meaning the doer. You would perhaps be aware that the Tamil speaking Christians have received such an (absurd) extent of 'Indigenization and/or Inculturation' that the Christian women sport tilak, wear flowers and bangles, wear mangala sutra on their necks, adorn their Jesus portraits with flower-pinches and more. The churches are 'Maadha Kovils'; the priest is the 'Aiyer'(!); the Bible is the 'vedham'; on festive days, idols of Mary and Jesus are drawn on pompously decorated chariots along the streets which, in turn, are decorated with tubelights on poles, flaunting money power.

I am reminded of an actual incident published in a Hindu magazine. A Tamil Christian woman, admitted to the maternity ward of a hospital for delivery, was panting and chanting 'Yeshuve, Yeshuve!'. When the labour pain intensified, however, she started crying 'appa Muruga kappatthu!'.

Near where I reside in Chennai there is a Hindu ceremonial house where brahmins offer the last rites to the departed. On the adjacent compound, there is a Christian church. On Sundays, the carols and songs (should we say 'bhajans'?) are sung loudly over microphones and powerful amplifiers, with scant regard for the poor brahmins who happen to perform the last rities on that day.

In the Christians' healing and praying conferences, pamphlets reviling Hindu gods and goddesses and calling them bad names are sometimes distributed; when confronted, the organizers claim that they are meant for their Christian audience. What right or business you people have got to talk about Hindu gods or symbols in a Christian religious meeting?

So much for the Christian religious and peaceful co-existence!

The question that Satay asked in the other thread remains: with so much hatred of the religion of the pagans, why pimp Jesus for harvesting their souls by resorting to pagan ways of culture and worship? Is it not a plain admission of the fact that Jesus no longer sells with his own charms even among the Westerners, so there is absolutely no chance of him succeeding to attract people to him in India and other Asian countries? Is it not sheer hypocrisy and arrogance that the Christian missioneries who revile Hinduism adopt Hindu religious ways to hoist their sagging religion and foist it on the gullible heathens?

Hinduism is vibrant with such freedom that some of us Hindus even resort to questioning the relevance of some of our scriptures for the modern age. We do not hesitate to debate the inconsistencies in our religion and mend our ways and customs to suit the times. It is strange that with over 200 denominations in Christianity, and being the largest religion in the world, Christians en masse are still treated as sheep, within the tight grip of religious authority, and allowed no independent and individualistic inquiry of their Self. It is really bad and sad that the Good Shepherd is turning more and more desperate to become a despot.