Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

[Gill Harley]

Hello and warm greetings to all

I am looking for help.

I am wondering if and where there is any reference in any of the four Vedas - Rig, Sama, Yajur or Atharva - to the doctrine of karma.

I'd be grateful for any advice you can give me.

Many thanks.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Hello and warm greetings to all
I am wondering if and where there is any reference in any of the four Vedas - Rig, Sama, Yajur or Atharva - to the doctrine of karma.
Many thanks.

Namaste Gill,
I am not certain if you are looking for a specific area of the Veda (see below) on Karma… Karma is just the word for action as you already know. Wonder if you are looking for works that say if you do this , then this will happen? Or the the general principle of Karma?

The Itihasa's ( from iti+ha+asa or "so it was") or epics such as Ramayana Mahabharata and I would add Vasistia'sYoga to this list, talks of the results of ones actions and karma are deduced from these sloka's and parables. Of the 3, the closest to the action-reaction conversation is in Vasistia's Yoga ( recommended reading for one who has perhaps been practicing upasana for ~ 10+ years or so and needs more info and inspiration).

Now, specifically the Mimamsa Sutra's of Jaimini is another as it deals with Vedic rites, and these rites are part of the Karma Kanda part of the Ved (again see below and the HDF link shown). This work is not for the faint at heart or the beginner ( not suggesting you are either here).

If you wish to research Karma, I would begin with the Bhagavad-gita as it is the cream of the Vedas. Specific chapters are dedicated to this knowledge. Chapters 2-3 and 5 are a must, yet reading all 700 ( some say 701) verses will be a good investment of time. That said, it is wise to read this by multiple authors, as knowledge is different in different states of consciousness.

Some show Arjuna as down trodden, others show him as a perfect student, etc. I subscribe to Arjuna as an excellent sisya and will even go so far to suggest that Arjuna and Krsna are Nara+Narayana, but that is another discussion and is taken up on a post here on HDF.


Extra credit portion of this conversation
We are Karma-krta or action born bodies that resides on this earth ( so tell me something I don't know you are thinking). Yet what kind of action can we perform?
If you are thinking from the school of Yoga - then there are white (Sukla ~ pure), black ( krsna). Mixed (sukla+ Krsna) and asukla-krsna ( neither white or black). Each produce a certain result e.g. happiness, sorrow, some happy+some sorrow, and ones that are devoid of happiness or sorrow.
Now of you were thinking from a Mimamsa point of view which comments on the actions of the ved , then there is nitya-karma, naimittika-karma, kamya-karma, pratisiddha-karma. Each deal with a certain part of the native to perform obligatory actions, occasional rites, optional rights, prohibited actions, etc.
Is there more? Sure Vihita karma prescribed by the Vedas, Sancita karma or residual (left overs) that remain dormant, Agami-karma from the results in this life and will mature in this life time ( we are more familiar with these - I work now, get paid later), Prarabdha karma from past life's that may mature ( bare fruit) in this life. As you can see this is no small matter for study.

Yet Krsna I believe has the best insights on this if you care to look at this string presented here on HDF , it will stimulate the concepts http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10895&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10895&postcount=1)
Hope this helps.


REFERENCES for your consideration
__________________________________________________________________
Veda's
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=11831&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=11831&postcount=1)
Karma Kanda that deals with yajya (ceremonial actions and rites) for the successful completion of actions and sankalph.
Upanasana Kanda - worship
Jnama Kanda - knowlesdge in general and of Brahman in specifics.
As time passed additional knowledge was attached to the samhitas (collection) of mantras, that is the Brahmanas (discussion of the ritual), Aranyakas ( aranya means "forest", or knowledge for the mendicent on retreat) and Upanishads (philosophical writings that capute the wisdom of the veda's for comprehension and meditation).
The veda in all contains 16 types of books, divided into 4 groups: Rig, Yajur, Sama, Atharva
6 systems of Indian Philosophy
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7818&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7818&postcount=1)

Karma ( some books I would suggest will assist are referenced at the end of the definition)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=11885&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=11885&postcount=1)

[Gill Harley]

Many thanks indeed. That it most helpful. I will look at your links and references but first, some further clarification:

You ask what sort of karma I'm interested in here. I think what I'm trying to get to the bottom of in my thinking (and this is part of research for a book) is when the doctrine of karma (i.e. that what happens to us in this life is the result of past actions, often in a previous life and also what we do in this life will impact on our next incarnation) was first was mentioned in Indian scriptures.

I have practised various forms of yoga for more than 30 years. On top of that, I am very familiar with the Bhagavad-gita and the whole body of literature of which it is a part (Srimad Bhagavatham, Mahabharata and so on). In fact, I have used various stories from the SB in my book, Lord of the Dance.

I also believe I understand the concept of the doctrine of karma as explained by Krishna to Arjuna. Well, let's say if I don't understand it now, I never will, given the number of times I've read and meditated on the BG. I have also practised various forms of yoga for more than 30 years.


But according to my research, these books - the Upanishads, the Forest Teachings and other 'distillations' - are thousands of years younger than the original four books - Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva, the books that I believe are the source of Sanathana Dharma of which Hinduism is a latter day development.

So I am interested to see if I can find a reference to the doctrine of karma in any of the original four books.

Many thanks for your interest.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Gill,

Yours is an excellent question. Where did the doctrine of karma come from? Is it rooted in the Veda? We definitely know that the Upanishad texts do contain the karma doctrine, and as you’ve rightly observed, they are of later composition (1500 BCE onwards).

Traditionally, the former portions of the Veda are called the karma-kanda (ritual portion) which consist of the Samhitas (Hymn Collections), and the Brahmanas (ritual texts). The karma-kanda (karma is derived from kri ~ to do or to act) is called as such because it deals primarily with Vedic rituals prescribed for various occasions. However, much of the knowledge later spelled out in the Upanishads is implicit within the karma-kanda, including the doctrine of karma in its original sense.

In its original sense, karma meant action through ritual acts as prescribed by the karma-kanda. If one were to perform a certain ritual, recite a certain hymn, live a certain way exactly as prescribed, a given reaction (fruit of the action) must occur. The fruits of one’s action were not just for a person to enjoy in this life, but also in the hereafter. Performance of the necessary rituals/actions correctly was the definition of Dharma for a person while s/he is alive, and it was the Dharma of one’s descendents to perform the rituals for the ancestors who’ve passed on. I am sure you can see how this idea is closely linked to the doctrine of karma and rebirth (punarjanma) as we have it now. Much of this is explained in the philosophy called Purva Mimamsa (Enquiry into the Former) expounded by Sage Jaimini, which places greater emphasis on the karma-kanda.

But, why was it so? Why would performance of certain actions guarantee certain reactions? This is because of something the Veda calls Rta (Cosmic Order). The entire universe works in consonance with Rta. Rta provides an equilibrium in the universe, so every action must have a reaction. Rta is greater than the Devas, and all the Devas adhere to Rta in the Veda. It is not up to the Devas to decide whether to provide the fruit of one’s rituals/actions - the power is within your hands, within your words and deeds; and its fruits are guaranteed within the Rta. In the latter portions of the Veda known as jnana-kanda (knowledge portion ~ consisting of the Aranyakas and Upanishads), Rta is equated with the Supreme Brahman.

Here is something I found about Karma in the Veda:


Karma and Reincarnation
The principles of Rta and Satya [Truth] imply a strict adherence to law and rule in conformity with the aim and purpose of the processes of the universe. Any action which originates in a sense of personal individuality set in opposition to or incongruous with the universal order of Rta and Satya should obviously mean the work of a nemesis, as a natural reaction to such action, endeavouring to set right the balance of cosmic equilibrium which has been disturbed by it. This principle of the redounding of the effect of action upon the doer of it is the metaphysical, ethical and psychological regulative force called Karma, which requires the doer of such action to pass through a series of experiential processes called metempsychosis or rebirth in other conditions and environments than that in which the action has been done. Thus it would be clear that the law of Karma and reincarnation is a scientific law of the integrality of the cosmos. The Vedas accept the operation of this principle and recognise the fact that one's future life depends on the way one lives the present one. We shall have occasion to revert to this famous doctrine of Karma, and Samsara in our studies of its further development.
~Swami Krishnananda
Source (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/hist/hist_1.html)
The doctrine of karma exists in an embryonic form in the Samhitas and Brahmanas. Although the Rigveda mentions it about 40 times, it is primarily used in the sense of sacrificial acts. The Brahmanas specifically identify karma with liturgical acts. Although there is "absence of ethical or moral concepts in pre-Upanishadic Vedic literature", the ideas of transmigration and rebirth occur both in the samhitas and the Brahmanas.

The Upanishadic exposition of karma is somewhat ambivalent in the sense that they uphold karma as a moral law, and in the same vein, teach how they can be "destroyed or arrested and rendered sterile."
Source (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000618/spectrum/books.htm#4)
I hope that helps.

OM Shanti,
A.

[Gill Harley]

Thanks, Agnideva...that's most helpful.

I don't think Westerners like myself really understand the true doctrine of karma, despite our reading of the Bhagavad-gita and much of the wider Vedas. We think we have to suffer and suffer and suffer and suffer because of our previous misdeeds, and we say to each other 'well, it must be your karma for you to suffer like this, so there's nothing you can do about it'.

I was really interested to see - and do correct me if I've misunderstood - that the literature about it doesn't really take on a moral dimension until the Upanishads, and that much before that, particularly in the oldest book, the Rig-veda, it is only mentioned as part of ceremony instigated, I'm assuming, to mitigate the effects of certain karma - which, if this is the case, is a long way from putting up with an intolerable situation because you believe that you are paying off your karma that way...

Is that your reading of it, I wonder?

[atanu]

Thanks, Agnideva...that's most helpful.

I don't think Westerners like myself really understand the true doctrine of karma, despite our reading of the Bhagavad-gita and much of the wider Vedas. We think we have to suffer and suffer and suffer and suffer because of our previous misdeeds, and we say to each other 'well, it must be your karma for you to suffer like this, so there's nothing you can do about it'.

I was really interested to see - and do correct me if I've misunderstood - that the literature about it doesn't really take on a moral dimension until the Upanishads, and that much before that, particularly in the oldest book, the Rig-veda, it is only mentioned as part of ceremony instigated, I'm assuming, to mitigate the effects of certain karma - which, if this is the case, is a long way from putting up with an intolerable situation because you believe that you are paying off your karma that way...

Is that your reading of it, I wonder?

Dear Gill,

Vedas are truly timeless. They do not use any term which will make the sayings time bound. Brahma is the mind. Rudra is the first "I am" realisation. etc. etc.

A jiva, minus the ego, is Brahman. There is a discussion betwen Prajapati and Indra where, Prajapati is told: "If you enquire KA (who am I?), then you are that". To clear the mind of all notions and to see clearly beneath the veil, karma is prescribed. Lord Agni is prayed to remember and convey to Gods the good actions performed. All sat karma is intended to erase with finality the notion that I am this body-mind.

Whatever happens in unexplained way, is actually past karma fructifying and is often called daivam(fate). However, there is no fate that one has not created oneself. In, Yoga Vashista, sage Vashista says to Rama: The present action is stronger than the reactions of past karma.


Sanatana Dharma is not fatalistic. Some karma effect may overbear but still with self effort and patience bad karma is wiped out, since Self (truth) is stronger than the Rta (order). The Self is the ordainer of the Order.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Gill Harley]

Thank you Atanu Banerjee.

My view is that the teachings of the wider Vedas may be timeless, but different parts of were taught orally and then eventually written down ar different times throughout a 3,000 year period , and it is quite evident how different cultures prevailed at the different times of writing, and these different cultures appeared to have different priorities and needs from their spiritual teachings.

For my own research, I am very interested in how the doctrine of karma is presented in the Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva-vedas, the four oldest of the books. And I am particularly interested in hearing that there more than 40 mentions of karma in the Rig-veda and that it is mainly in a ceremonial context. I'd be very grateful to receive the references for these.

Many thanks.

[atanu]

Thank you Atanu Banerjee.

My view is that the teachings of the wider Vedas may be timeless, but different parts of were taught orally and then eventually written down ar different times throughout a 3,000 year period , -------.


The immortal Devas have remained same - none added or removed.




For my own research, I am very interested in how the doctrine of karma is presented in the Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva-vedas, the four oldest of the books. And I am particularly interested in hearing that there more than 40 mentions of karma in the Rig-veda and that it is mainly in a ceremonial context. I'd be very grateful to receive the references for these.

Many thanks.

What is ceremony is Yagna -- a karma to propitiate and expand the Devas that in turn expands the yagni.

Anyway, lets see what turns up. Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

A few verses that may help you.

This sacrifice is the navel of the world.


RV I, 164, 35128

All power to our life through sacrifice!
All power to our lungs through sacrifice!
All power to our eyes through sacrifice!
All power to our ears through sacrifice!
All power to our backs through sacrifice!
All power to Sacrifice through sacrifice!


YV IX, 21

All this, whatever exists, is made to share in sacrifice.


SB III, 6, 2, 26

Sacrifice is a reliable ferry.


AB I, 13 (III, 2, 29)

The boat which father and son use for
transport undergoes no damage.
Now sacrifice is the boat of the Gods.


JAIM B I, 165

One indeed is the sacrifice!


JAIM B II, 70


Worship does not consist solely in prayer or feeling or knowledge; it is action.
Although, the sacrificial element implied within the concept of karma is not loaded with ideas of morality; a call is made upon flowing Soma -- the thoughts, to flow towards Lord.

As an aside, I would point out that from Vedas it is difficult to determine who is greater, Lord Indra or Lord Soma --- both make each other strong. Lord is the one who has Soma under control. And Soma is the father of Lord. Soma is the promordial Atma of sacrifice.

Karma is not physical. It begins in mind, as Soma.




Creation through Yagna (karma)



RV X, 130

1. Sacrifice [resembles] a loom with threads extended
this way and that, composed of innumerable rituals.
Behold now the Fathers weaving the fabric; seated
on the outstretched loom. "Lengthwise! Crosswise!" they cry.
2. Behold now a Man who unwinds and sets the thread,
a Man who unwinds it right up to the vault of heaven.
Here are the pegs; they are fastened to the place of worship.
The Saman-hymns are used for weaving shuttles.
---------


Priestly Task


Rtvijah

26


RV X, 101

1. Awake, my friends, united in heart.
Kindle the fire, my numerous comrades.
I call to your aid the attendants of God,
the Fire, the Sun-Horse, the Goddess Dawn.
2. May your thoughts be harmonious; spin them out properly.
Construct a rowboat to cross the broad waters.
Do all things in order; make ready the implements.
My friends, let the sacrifice now proceed.
3. Fix well the ploughshares, fasten the yokes.
The furrows are ready, sow then the seed!
If your word is received by attentive hearers,
the richer the harvest will be for our sickles.
4. The Seers prepare the ploughshares for ploughing;
they lay the yokes on either side.
These are they who, possessed of wisdom,
know how to win the favor of the Gods.
5. Arrange the buckets in their proper places
with ropes securely adjusted beneath.
We desire to draw from a copious fountain
where water flows freely, inexhaustible.
6. From the fountain whose bucket is well-prepared
with good strong ropes, where water flows freely--
from this copious fountain we draw, inexhaustible.
7. Refresh the horses and win the prize!
May your chariot become a vehicle of good fortune,
with press stones as wheels, its armor the sacred
vessels, its chassis the soma-vat!
From this I will draw the beverage of heroes.
8. Prepare a cowshed where your lords will drink.
Stitch a coat of armor strong and broad.
Make castles of iron unassailable.
Fix well your vessel. Let it not leak!
9. I bend to our cause at this solemn moment,
O Gods, your divine and holy attention.
May a thousand streams gush forth from this offering
like milk from a bountiful pasture-fed cow.


Tasks of Men



27


RV IX, 112

1. We all have various thoughts and plans
and diverse are the callings of men.
The carpenter seeks out that which is cracked,
the physician the ailing, the priest the soma-press.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
2. The smith with his store of seasoned plants,
with his feathers of birds and stones for the tips,
enkindles the flame to make arrows and then
seeks out a client bulging with gold.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
3. I am a singer, my Dad's a physician,
my Mummy's task is to grind the corn.
Diverse are our callings but we all aim at wealth;
we run in its wake like a cowherd trailing cows.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
4. A horse desires to draw a light cart,
gay hosts to evoke a laugh and a jest,
a male desires his mate's approach,
a frog a flood to plunge within.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
The worshiper pours out the Soma-juice (indu) to the words of the refrain invoking Indra, the lord.

The sacrifice of Secular Man



YV XXX

1. Inspire, O Vivifier God, the sacrifice, inspire
the lord of the sacrifice to take his share!
May the heavenly Angel, the purifier of the will, purify our wills!
May the Lord of the Word make pleasant our word!
4. We call upon the Lord, distributor of wonderful bounty,
the One who looks upon men.

5. for the priesthood a priest
6. for Song a public dancer
for Duty a courtier
for Laughter a comedian
for Dexterity a wainwright
for Firmness a carpenter
----------
18. for the Dice King a gambler
20. for Pastime a prostitute
for Lust a woman with a spotty skin
for Pleasure a musician

22. Now he binds to the stake the following eight types of men:
one too tall one too short
one too stout one too thin
one too pale one too dark
one too bald one too hairy

--all to be offered to Prajapati.


The creation is a sacrifice, which is a karma. Ego suffers on taking up the karma on itself. The best karma is to upload the karma where it belongs.

As regards your view that Vedas were written over a period of 3000 years, I have my reservations. May be physically yes. But the revelations are not time constrained.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Gill Harley]

Thank you so much, Atanu, for such a rich banquet of verses! Each of them confirms my view that the original four books were based on what has come to be known as shamanism - although this is a Siberian term and would not have been used in the Punjab at the time of the writings of the Vedas.

The weaving of the web, for instance, is a common shamanic symbol and used all over the world.

The other commonality is that the shaman would travel between the three worlds (upper, lower and middle) to find the causes of his tribes' disharmony (karmic effects) and bring back the solution for it from one of these other dimensions.

This 'journeying' to the other dimensions was (and still is) attended by much ceremony to bring in the devas, to gain their attention and their cooperation which they are more than happy to give because they so love the poor, struggling and fallible human being for his courage to keep on going in the face of such great adversity. The devas love us like their own hearts.

Of course, I agree with you that the devas revelations are not time constrained, and are even going on today. The devas don't change - but what I am equally fascinated by is the wonderful human being who is in no way a lesser being than the deva and indeed, could at one time have been a deva - as many devas are known to queue up for human bodies. To me, the human being is as fascinating as the devas, and I love to learn about how the human being changes and his culture changes over time and, therefore, how he finds different ways to work in symbiosis with the devas.

It's a wonderful, growing and evolving relationship for which we can never stop giving thanks!

[atanu]

Thank you so much, Atanu, for such a rich banquet of verses! Each of them confirms my view that the original four books were based on what has come to be known as shamanism - although this is a Siberian term and would not have been used in the Punjab at the time of the writings of the Vedas.

The weaving of the web, for instance, is a common shamanic symbol and used all over the world.

The other commonality is that the shaman would travel between the three worlds (upper, lower and middle) to find the causes of his tribes' disharmony (karmic effects) and bring back the solution for it from one of these other dimensions.

This 'journeying' to the other dimensions was (and still is) attended by much ceremony to bring in the devas, to gain their attention and their cooperation which they are more than happy to give because they so love the poor, struggling and fallible human being for his courage to keep on going in the face of such great adversity. The devas love us like their own hearts.

Of course, I agree with you that the devas revelations are not time constrained, and are even going on today. The devas don't change - but what I am equally fascinated by is the wonderful human being who is in no way a lesser being than the deva and indeed, could at one time have been a deva - as many devas are known to queue up for human bodies. To me, the human being is as fascinating as the devas, and I love to learn about how the human being changes and his culture changes over time and, therefore, how he finds different ways to work in symbiosis with the devas.

It's a wonderful, growing and evolving relationship for which we can never stop giving thanks!

Dear Gill,

Thanks are due to you Gill, for this opportunity. And though what you have noted is in general agreeable yet I do not mind to point out the fallacies. Please accept or reject them.

Weaving is the creation of the mind -- like a cobweb.

I think you are looking at the whole thing as a historian would look. And this will lead to utter failure. The truth is not different in Siberia and in India. Siberia and India are in your mind. It is the TRUTH (the Pragnya) that has woven a concept of Siberia and India.

You should realise the effect of your own conditioning on whatever you get/read. Please do not come to a conclusion with a thinking mind. But let the verses be mulled over and digested in silence of the mind. The verses are translated and do not convey exactly the same thing to different minds. It is unfortunate that we fail to realise that it is actually the contemplation of the sounds that gradually takes one to the truth which is silence and which is the Lord of the word.

Shamanism is a mere word. The greatest ceremoney is not physical. At present I cannot post the verses but you should have faith that I am telling the truth. At least the following from what already has been posted will show what is the most pertinent meaning of 'spinning' ----- hehe (other meanings are not invalidated)

2. May your thoughts be harmonious; spin them out properly.
Construct a rowboat to cross the broad waters.
Do all things in order; make ready the implements.
My friends, let the sacrifice now proceed.


The next to the greatest ceremoney is enquiring 'KA'? And the greatest ceremoney is contemplation and concentration on the source of the word (OM or I or whatever is your convention) and extinguishing the mind like a piece of camphor, which burns to finish itself off.

Sage Yajnavalka indeed says that it is karma which sets apart a man from another. The natural corollary would be that it is karma, which enables a man to attain karma free state (avimukta).


Yes, it is Purusha that hosts all the devas. There is none higher than the one who breathes. That is what the Upanishad says.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Dear Gill,

--------
Sage Yajnavalka indeed says that it is karma which sets apart a man from another. The natural corollary would be that it is karma, which enables a man to attain karma free state (avimukta).
------
Om Namah Shivaya




From Brihadarayanaka

BU IV, 4, 23. This has been said in the verse: The eternal greatness of a knower of Brahman is neither enhanced by works (karma) nor diminished. All that matters is to know the nature of Brahman. One who knows is untainted by evil action.

Therefore, he who knows this, having become peaceful, controlled, detached, patient, and concentrated, sees the atman in himself and sees all in the atman. Evil does not overcome him, but he overcomes all evil; evil does not consume him, but he consumes all evil. -------




CU VIII, 5 ------ It is the atman, free from evil, free from old age and death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst: this is the atman, whose desires are truth, whose purpose is truth. Just as people here on earth act in accordance with command, living in the country or on the piece of land of their choice--

6. just as here [in this life] the world earned by work (karma) fades away, likewise the world beyond earned by meritorious deeds (karma) fades away also. He who departs from this world without having found the atman and true desires will lack freedom in every world. But he who departs from this world, having found the atman and true desires, will enjoy freedom in every world.


Om

[Gill Harley]

Many thanks, Atanu, for all your help and guidance on this.

I will take these verses and meditate upon them in my heart.

May all your prayers be granted and all your efforts rewarded.

[Gill Harley]

I think what is interesting here - and actually a similar course can be found in sacred literature the world over - is how (in all 'shamanic' cultures) there was originally an accent on sacrificing 'something' in a sacred ceremony to induce symbiosis and harmony with the devas, for instance, the horse sacrifice. So although the owner of the precious horse was making a great sacrifice, the horse was too and was in fact, making the greatest sacrifice by giving of its life and this was attended with great ceremony to bring the horse into it as a willing partner, rather than unwilling victim.

But over time, it appears that the idea of what should be sacrificed changed and developed. The sacrifice then became something human beings had to adjust in their behaviour and then even further down the line, in many cultures throughout the world (including some Indian ones) the human himself had to be sacrificed, and so we had human sacrifice. Probably the peak expression of this is of Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for all mankind on the cross, and the idea that one will go to "heaven" purely by believing in that act and praying to Jesus.

Of course, nowadays, it's difficult to get anyone to even give up a few hours of the time for charity, let alone nebulous gods that they no longer believe in, and so it seems as if the idea of sacrifice has been almost completely lost.

By the way, I've inferred from something Atanu said that he thought it may not be correct to view these matters as a historian. I am not a historian but I do find history interesting, because I find it helpful to go back in time and learn from the ancients and try to reclaim what has been lost. But it is also vital, imho, to be able, while doing this, to separate history from myth i.e. to know when you're dealing with literal truth, and to know when you're dealing with metaphors.

And how do you tell the difference between the two? Well, a good friend of mine was once taught by a highly enlightened history professor who used to say that:

"The only difference between history and myth is that myth is true".

I heartily agree!

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Thanks, Agnideva...that's most helpful.

I was really interested to see - and do correct me if I've misunderstood - that the literature about it doesn't really take on a moral dimension until the Upanishads, and that much before that, particularly in the oldest book, the Rig-veda, it is only mentioned as part of ceremony instigated, I'm assuming, to mitigate the effects of certain karma - which, if this is the case, is a long way from putting up with an intolerable situation because you believe that you are paying off your karma that way...

Is that your reading of it, I wonder?

Namaste Gill,
Perhaps this will assist...
Karma and Reincarnation : The Vedantic Perspective/Swami Muni Narayana Prasad. Reprint. New Delhi, D.K. Printworld, 2006, 106 p., $11 (pbk). ISBN 81-246-0022-8. [Contemporary Researches in Hindu Philosophy and Religion, No. 2]
Site : https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no44421.htm

I have the greatest respect for this author.

[atanu]

-----there was originally an accent on sacrificing 'something' in a sacred ceremony to induce symbiosis and harmony with the devas, for instance, the horse sacrifice. So although the owner of the precious horse was making a great sacrifice, the horse was too and was in fact, making the greatest sacrifice by giving of its life and this was attended with great ceremony to bring the horse into it as a willing partner, rather than unwilling victim.




Namaste Gill,


I-i-1: Om. The head of the sacrificial horse is the dawn, its eye the sun, its vital force the air, its open mouth the fire called Vaisvanara, and the body of the sacrificial horse is the year. Its back is heaven, its belly the sky, its hoof the earth, its sides the four quarters, its ribs the intermediate quarters, its members the seasons, its joints the months and fortnights, its feet the days and nights, its bones the stars and its flesh the clouds. Its half-digested food is the sand, its blood-vessels the rivers, its liver and spleen the mountains, its hairs the herbs and trees. Its forepart is the ascending sun, its hind part the descending sun, its yawning is lightning, its shaking the body is thundering, its making water is raining, and its neighing is voice.


Do you think that above is a fleshy horse?




----The sacrifice then became something human beings had to adjust in their behaviour and then even further down the line, in many cultures throughout the world (including some Indian ones) the human himself had to be sacrificed, -----


Yes, its called renunciation. Without renunciating the fruits of one's toil to God, not much can be attained. However, this renunciation becomes easy once the realisation dawns that "I am this body" is false notion altogether. Jesus on the cross is a good reminder of this.





"The only difference between history and myth is that myth is true".

I heartily agree!

I heartily agree too. History lies about real personalities. The myth tells the truth using mythical personalities.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Gill,

Do you think that above is a fleshy horse?.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste Atanu and Gill (et.al)

All that I have studied and read is, in the final analysis, either horse or human , it is the symbol that is offered in yagya, not the physical component.

I look to the Rig Ved as reviewed by R L Kashap , Sri Aurobindo, Kapali Shastri, etc. for insights on this... These pandits and muni's have studied the Ved for quite some time, and 'broke the code' so to say.
I suggest , if there is interst, we start a new thread on this, as the concept and knowledge is far reaching, that is, in the veda all of Creation is considered a yajya ( some write it as yaag-ya)

I look to the Purusha Suktam for some additional ideas.
The Purusha Sukta refers to the Parama Purusha, Purushottama, Narayana, in his form as the Virat Purusha, the source of all creation. He ( His form) having countless heads, eyes, legs, says/informs us He is manifest everywhere, and beyond the scope of any limited method of comprehension. All creation is but the fourth part of him. The rest is unmanifested.
So what's my point? How did this whole universe manifest , that is, Purusha express Himself? Through yajya… this yajna was called 'sarvahut', or the full-offering of all.
The act of creation itself grew out of yajna, this notion sacrifice. Yet one needs to better understand this notion, and a new thread would be appropriate ... yet let me finish this one thought:

Who was worshipped at this sacrifice? It was the Purusha. Who performed it? Brahma, the creative aspect of the Purusha. What was sacrificed? Again, the Purusha himself, his great body that contained all of creation.

That is, that Purusha would consume himself in the fire of creation, to create all the worlds. From this sacrifice did all of creation emanate. This is why the sage of enlightened vision can proclaim:
Idam brahma, idam kshatram, ime lokah, ime devah, imani bhutani, idam sarvam yad ayam atma."This Source of knowledge; this source of power; all these worlds; all these gods; all these beings; All this is just the Self." SAGE YAJNAVALKYA , BRIHADARANYAKA UPANISHAD

Now, there is much to be learned [for me] between this info and the actions of Jesus.



pranams,

[saidevo]

Namaste Everyone.



The act of creation itself grew out of yajna, this notion sacrifice.


Yes, Creation is the greatest sacrifice on the part of Brahman. THAT willed to sacrifice a part of itself, changed from nirguna to saguna Brahman, breathed jivas and this universe out, set them in a cycle of systaltic and diastolic rhythm of time, and kept the jivas tainted by karma within itself at the end of a cycle until commencing the next one.

Every moment, every atom is sacrificing a part of itself, to eventually reach its natural state of pure energy and consciousness. For every atom is nothing but a crystallized form of energy. Jesus Christ's sacrifice of his body is highlighted by his ascension, and that was his main message: that the body should be sacrificed to realize the Self.

Since our body, mind, emotions, thoughts and every other add-on to the Atman is only matter, it behooves us to learn to sacrifice them progressively in order to realize the Self.

[Arvind Sivaraman]

Om Sai Ram,
Namaste Gill,
Though you have asked where is it mentioned the law of karma in the Vedas, I would like to state from Srimad Valmiki Sundarakandam(Which is the 5th Section of Srimad Valmiki Ramayanam)that Lord Hanuman or Maruthi surmises within himself after seeing Goddess Sita (Wife of Lord Ram)in the Asoka Vanam (Vanam means Forest) (Asoka Vanam is in Srilanka) that "Yathi Sitapi Dukhartha Kalo hi Durathikramaha" - this means, if a Godess like Sita is in this pitiable condition,it can be concluded that TIME is a factor which none can overcome.

Pl Note : Godess Sita had spent 10 months in Asoka Vanam when Lord Hanuman visits SriLanka.

That is why in Chapter 26,Sloka 50 Sage Valmiki writes that :
"Priyanna Sambhave Dukham Apriya Dhadhikam Bhayam"
"Thabyam hi ye viyujyente namsteshaam Mahaatmanaam"

ie;If happiness comes ones mind is filled with joy,if unhappiness comes our mind is filled with sorrow,Those people who have risen above both Hapiness and unhapiness are really great men. My salutations to them.

(This sloka is written when Godess Sita is all set to commit suicide).

Pl Note : Srimad Valimiki Ramayanam is considered as the Aadhi Kavyam
Aadhi means First and Kaavyam means Poem.
The Sundara Kandam is considered as the Upanishad.ie; the essence of Vedas.

[Gill Harley]

Sai Ram Arvind Sivaraman

You must be a fellow devotee of Sai Baba to address me in such a way.

I always love to hear about Ram and Sita, and stories from the Ramayana. In fact, Swami Himself has written his own very wonderful version of the Ramayana. Have you read it? To me, curling up with it is like curling up with warm honey and toast and mother's milk, and is the perfect salve or balm to this rigours of this Kaliyuga!

However, for the purposes of this discussion, I am looking for references to karma in the much earlier core four books of the Vedas, the Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva.

But thanks for reminding me about such a wonderful story!

[Gill Harley]

Gentlemen

Many thanks for all your posts. They are all so interesting and helpful, especially the book recommendation. I will see if I can get it through Amazon.

There is, however, one point on which I have a different opinion. From my own experiences of shamanism, I would say that although the symbolic sacrifice of the horse was a vital part of it, so was the literal actual sacrifice of the blessed animal.

To perform a healing, or to bring harmony to their peoples, shamans cross through into one, two or three different dimensions in rapid succession (they wouldn’t say that this reality is any more real or unreal that that of the upper and lower worlds that they visit regularly.) But when a shamanic healing is to take place, the actions whose symbols resonate in the upper and lower worlds must also have their physical counterpart in this middle world. The effect of the literal sacrifice in the middle world (earth) anchors the event to what is happening in other dimensions – as above, so below - bhur bhuva svah.


So, in short, I think it is likely that they did sacrifice a ‘real’ horse while, at the same time, honouring and celebrating its symbolic aspects.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Everyone.
Yes, Creation is the greatest sacrifice on the part of Brahman. THAT willed to sacrifice a part of itself, changed from nirguna to saguna Brahman,
....
Every moment, every atom is sacrificing a part of itself, to eventually reach its natural state of pure energy and consciousness. For every atom is nothing but a crystallized form of energy. Jesus Christ's sacrifice of his body is highlighted by his ascension, and that was his main message: that the body should be sacrificed to realize the Self.
.

Namaste Saidevo,
What you say is wise. What people tend to think is sacrifice is painful.
From reading the veda's there is joy in Yagya, this giving up process.
Jesus' message IS extreamly profound. I see it as giving up the material for the spiritual.
When one sadhu asked our teacher , 'did Jesus suffer' , he said, anyone that says "I and my Father are One" does not suffer. This is the profound teaching of Jesus. Most neo-modern day thinking puts their attention on Jesus on the cross, vs. Jesus on Easter, arising from the dead, really meaning ( to me ) arising from the material ( 3 gunas) to the Spiritual.
That the SELF is eternal - fire does not hurt it, knifes do not cleave it, water does not drown it ( all parables of Krsna). This is the teaching I belive that is eternal to Jesus-ji. This is the yajya of Jesus.

pranams,

[Gill Harley]

But the interesting thing about the Christian philosophy - and particularly the Roman Catholics - is that they believe that they no longer have to make any sacrifce themselves, now that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for them.

So long as they believe that Jesus made that sacrifice for them, and pray to him for their redemption, they don't have to sacrifice anything.

[saidevo]

Namaste Gill Harley.


But the interesting thing about the Christian philosophy - and particularly the Roman Catholics - is that they believe that they no longer have to make any sacrifce themselves, now that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for them.

So long as they believe that Jesus made that sacrifice for them, and pray to him for their redemption, they don't have to sacrifice anything.

Would this mean that they can wage war on humanity as with the war on Iraq and act as the world's super cop as done by President Bush the twice born Christian? plunder and destroy the people's health as do the food and drink multinationals? spread rancor and falsity through the powerful electronic and print media as do the world media barons? pollute the very planet and deprive posterity of natural resources as the US government in main does? build churches in every nook and corner in India invading and destroying Hindu holy places but not give an inch of land in their own sacred Vatican? revile the most sacred and oldest path to divine and harvest souls for consumption of Jesus Christ? While money is described as the root of all evils, it is the path to power for these people who call themselves followers of Jesus Christ; and power corrupts the soul, more so when it is absolute power.

Perhaps, like the utopian Rama Rajya, this is the modern Christ Rajya. If it is so, it is even worse than the past sins of Christianity, making Jesus Christ a scapegoat all along the annals of history.

[sm78]

But the interesting thing about the Christian philosophy - and particularly the Roman Catholics - is that they believe that they no longer have to make any sacrifce themselves, now that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for them.

So long as they believe that Jesus made that sacrifice for them, and pray to him for their redemption, they don't have to sacrifice anything.

That they are still born on earth and not heaven suggests Jesus's sacrifice didn't quite work.

[sm78]

Jesus Christ's sacrifice of his body is highlighted by his ascension, and that was his main message: that the body should be sacrificed to realize the Self.

I may not know what Christ's message or Christianity's message is through the image of Jesus on a pole. It may be what you are saying ~ but it boils down to people worshiping the body of a dead Christ . Somehow worship of christ on a cross turns out to be the anti thesis of "transcend the body message". The story of Christ resurrecting in the same body kind of makes it more body-driven philosophy.

Indeed concept of body as the only reality is hard grained thought of the judeo-christian world and the main motive behind these ideologies.

I tend to think that we hindus are sometimes too eager to display sama-bhava of religions. If only our counter-parts shared the same enthusiasm!

******
Whenever I see the symbol of cross with Christ on it ~ my mind instinctively registers a negative vive. It seems odd and quite against the beauty and fullness of world we live in. It is very anti-life and "I am the body" symbol to me. I am just talking about what mind registers without much intellectual rationalization. Has anyone here spend long times inside churches ?? Did you find the experience same as being out in nature or visiting an ancient temple ?? Did anybody really register's "I am not the body" vive looking at the image of Christ on a cross ?? If yes, it will be interesting to hear.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

I may not know what Christ's message or Christianity's message is through the image of Jesus on a pole.

Namaste sm78,

Chirst's messages are relatively simple...

Love they neighbor as thy SELF.
Seek the Kingdom of heaven - it's within you
Physician, heal thy self
etc. ( more if you wish)His wisdom was pretty straight foward, yet we as humans have an infinite way to mis-interpret and go our own way.

pranams,

[Znanna]

"You hear what you want to hear, you see what you want to see."

- the Rock Man

(Harry Neilsson, the Point)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Point!



ZN