Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

[rteixeirapl]

Dear friends,
Hari Om,

Please, do not consider my post as offensive. I'm just a student trying to get knowledge.

From my actual stage of learning sanskrit and comparing translations, I've noticed some different perspectives in Prabhupada books and commentaries that takes ISKCON far away from the real text as it is (the texts are full of interpolations and extrapolations). Some shlokas translated by Prabhupada are completely different from their respective sanskrit correspondents, and the purports are very biased. Sometimes - that is to say, almost everytime, Prabhupada doesn't even give his considerations at the Purport, but at the translation itself, changing the meaning of the words, adding words and even phrases in the translation space, which for me is a aggression to the shastra.

I have a lot of ISKCON friends and with respect try to talk with them, but unfortunately, they quote paramparā and Prabhupada in defense of the arguments. But I've seen that Prabhupada defending Prabhupada is kind of useless... I'm new to HDF, and my doubts became more intense when I saw that there is a forum for discussions about "God in Hindu Dharma" in the views of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism.. and Hare Krishna. That came to me kind of confirming my thoughts about ISKCON, that they have became kind of a sect that started differentiating from traditional Vaishnavism.

I'm just a student, and humbly would like to ask you about this thought of mine.

a) Is ISKCON considered a traditional Vaishnava group?
b) The separation in HDF is due to what I was already thinking (ISKCON have different perspectives and non-traditional analysis of texts and became kind of a sect for itself, centered in Prabhupada)?
c) What do you think about Prabhupada and his translations?

Please, I humbly propose not to start a fight, since I believe that everybody that seeks for God, in any sect, system of philosophy or any other way is worthy of respect. I respect Swami Prabhupada, all ISKCON members and devotees, and acknowledge Prabhupada's value.

But, since we are at the forum of the Vaishnava and not at the forum of the Hare Krishna, I'm proposing this topic to know your points of view.

Please, accept my sincere pranam, beforehand apologizing if my words caused any harshness,
R

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Pranams rteixeirapl,

I don't think its an offensive question, but you may get a diverse response here, so you may not get a straight and conclusive answer. But I am not sure the heading of the post Vaishnavism Vs ISKCON is fully appropriate. There are four main Vaishnava Sampradaya's, each one has a different view and practice, it is not just Gaudia Vaishnavism that has its own flavour.

Srila Prabhupada certainly is a controversial teacher in many ways, and some areas of his teachings have been debated , discussed and argued over for many years. I have seen most of them, and in my own assessment I just take what is good and the things I can apply to my own practice and leave the rest for others. Different people will take a certain % of what he wrote and taught while others will throw almost everything out completely, so all I am saying is if others comment I wouldn't expect a view where everyone agrees.

Personally I have 1 foot in ISKCON and 1 foot out, I was initiated into ISKCON, still visit the temples where I have friends and still use Prabhupadas books for certain reference, but am also at the same time independent, so what I say only represents my own understanding and view.

ISKCON is a design that was perhaps worked out and planned starting from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur to make the teachings of Gaudia Vaishnavism understood and able to be practiced around the world. By design I mean that the audience outside of India would be able to relate to it, and it worked, it is an international movement, and nobody from India has spread the teachings as far across the globe as Srila Prabhupada, weather it is a success is another matter completely.

If we take Bhagavad Gita As It Is for example, many people think that he is saying that all other Bhagavad Gita are As It is Not, I consider this a wrong conclusion, but there is a certain defense of Sri Krsna as a transcendent Personality who is all Attractive and the Top Most form of Godhead and that the essence of Bhagavad Gita, while so many other approaches and systems of philosophy are included is that Bhakti Yoga is the the essential message of Bhagavad Gita. There are also issues still today about his original translation of Bhagavad Gita being changed by some of his disciples.


While I was in India and especially South India, Vaishnavism is totally different, but I never saw the practice of Gaudia as something separate, only different. We have the same examples in some respect with many other traditions, the Kashmiri Shaivism and South Indian forms of Shaivism also are different, and both would assume that their practice is of a superior nature. So its not just ISKCON and Prabhupadas teachings that make the same claims, its included within the totality of diversity within Hinduism as a whole.

I dont say this in a negative sense but I consider in the best possible way that ISKCON is not a religion as many other longer standing traditions of Hinduism are, its more of a cult, but that does not mean to say that its not a valid form of Vaishnavism, if there is Bhakti with sincerity and the lack of dogma and fanaticism thinking its the only true path of Vaishnavism then for me its a Bonafide process of self realization.

ISKCON in many ways has become very institutionalized and has many issues, many of these issues have been handled with immaturity and sadly there has been a split and division with the larger Hindu family and within the institution itself, but there are also many devotees that do not carry such a bias, and one thing to consider is the Guru Disciple relationship, many are just being loyal to their Guru, and following His instructions, that's what any Shiksha should do, how they do it will vary according the maturity of their understanding.

It maybe a long and worn debate, many just get on with it and practice as they see fit, when I read Bhagavad Gita now I will also see some other commentaries, and Srila Prabhupadas I still include, it only helps to broaden my view and understanding of such a great book. So my advice to myself is take on board what is favorable and leave sticky issues to one side as its never conclusive and each different sadhaka is on a different level.

Srila Prabhupada was certainly a great person, I mean He traveled to the west at a very mature age, suffered two heart attacks, lived in the slums of New York where he arrived with only a few rupees and taught with love to the rejects of the society, from this he built up a worldwide movement and many devotees loved Him dearly, He worked non stop around the clock following the instructions of His Gurudeva, slept only 4 hours a day, was always available, had a great sense of Humour, stayed up all night and worked around the clock translating books and his works were truly selfless, but some pick on his faults, but that's life.

Ys

Md

[rteixeirapl]

Namaskar, markandeya 108 dasa,

Thank you for your reply and kindly exposition!

Pranam,
R

[Believer]

Namaste,

The above posts would sound better with the use of a couple of alternate words/phrases,

1. Cult s/b replaced with 'school of thought', as cult is a closed group of people who don't interact with and don't let strangers into the group, unless you become a member.
2. 'biased translations' s/b replaced with 'unique interpretation' of verses. Each guru/swami interprets the written word per his own realizations. So, in that sense, all translations are biased one way or the other.

I am not an ardent follower/supporter of ISKCON, but this might be helpful in some ways,
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=121832&postcount=33

The bottom line is that if their brand of theology is not palatable, one should not dwell on what causes negativity to build up and should instead move on to what looks and feels genuine.

Pranam.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Pranams

Srila Prabhupada himself said that he was establishing the Bhakti Cult many times.


Caitanya-caritamrta (http://prabhupadabooks.com/cc) Adi. 10.84 (http://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/adi/10/84): “Obeisances are therefore offered to the spiritual master as sarasvata-deva, or a member of the Sarasvata family (namas te sarasvate deve), whose mission is to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Ys

Md

[rteixeirapl]

Pranams,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Gaudiya Vaishnavism isnt one of the four traditional sampradayas. Right? What is their affiliation?

Hari Om,
R

[Believer]

Namaste,


Srila Prabhupada himself said that he was establishing the Bhakti Cult many times.
English is a second or a third language for Indians. Many times when they formulate their thoughts into English language, one needs a translator to get to the gist of their thoughts. It is along those lines that we should not and cannot cling to every word dropping out of their mouths. With their limited vocabulary and using Hinglish (Hindi+English) words limits them in their expressive mode. If a cult is defined as a closed group, no sane person will call ISKCON a cult or the Bhakti movement a cult. It means a way for spiritual ascent, a school of thought if you will. Anyone can walk into an ISKCON mandir and their books are available to all, as is their methodology to improve one's spiritual life. So, it is an entirely open system. There are no secrets. Hanging on to every word that Prabhupad said and taking literal meaning of it is a fallacy that we have to overcome.


Pranam.

PS, Apologies to the OP for the thread going sideways.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Pranams



rteixeirapl Namaskar, markandeya 108 dasa,

Thank you for your reply and kindly exposition!

Pranam,
RYou are most welcome.



rteixeirapl Pranams,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Gaudiya Vaishnavism isnt one of the four traditional sampradayas. Right? What is their affiliation?

Hari Om,
R This is quite a hot issue and I have seen a few debates about the validity of Gaudia from others point of view. It may need someone of more schorlay class to explain this in more depth, perhaps brahma jijnasa and anucarh Prabhu's may be able to explain the finer details better than me. Gaudia Vaishnavas in general claim their sampradya as Brahma Madhava Gaudia Sampradaya, but only recently last year I heard that Madhava Sampradaya has had some serious issues with ISKCON, when I was at Udupi before I felt very welcomed there, and met and shared Prasadam with the current Acharayas there, so I am not totally sure what has changed.

One thing for sure is that within Srila Prabhupada teachings is that he did not deny the authority of the other 4 sampradayas, and in some ways the Siddhanta of Acintya Bed Abeda includes all the views of the other 4 sampradayas, and Sri Chaitanya MahaPrabhu was one who harmonized the teachings of the Vaishnava Sampradayas and also the teachings of Adi Shankara. Some even say that we are diametrically opposed to the views and Siddhanta of Adi Shankara, but I cannot agree this, there are many very subtle areas that are quite easily over looked because of literal understandings. And ISKCON has a famous reputation of stating they are the highest among everyone and Srila Prabhupada is the the main Acharya for this age, but not all are like this and this view is on the decline.

In fact as of this moment I am listening and studying Sruti Gita, as spoken by a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, he is a South Indian Scholar and is fluent in Sanskrit, and as far as I am now its says that its unavoidble and imperative to know and realise advaita in the Gaudia approach, but we don't stop there, there is still more to learn, if we consider that Acintya is inconceivable, transcendent and beyond any explanation then advaita is included within the oneness, as with Dvaita and DvaitaAdvaita simultaneously. The more we advance in our progress the more things become more subtle and the divisions which may seem broad at the start begin to get slimmer and slimmer until they vanish.

My own opinion is that if Srila Prabhupada taught the subtle forms of Siddhanta he would just confuse everyone, especially in the west where most of us have no background in such high topics of Veda and Vedanta, but his teachings remain a very important contribution because nobody is discluded, so for myself I dont see that Acharaya's always talk according to their own realization and more to the audience that he is talking with. A broad study of the all the schools has to come at some point, but Prabhupada didnt want people running here and there and gave them a direction, I firmly believe that everything is contained within Srila prabhupadas books, but he may not be everyone's type of teacher.

Ys

Md

[smaranam]

Anyone can walk into an ISKCON mandir and their books are available to all, as is their methodology to improve one's spiritual life. So, it is an entirely open system.

It is open only for the sake of preaching. Not really open for any KRshNa lover if they do not follow their ways completely.

[Believer]

Namaste Smarnam,

First of all I am sorry that you have had some negative experiences with some over-zealous ISKCON devotees.

In a cult, you have to be tested to see if you can be trusted, then you have to be programmed in a certain way, you reach some milestones and become a member and only then you are given the secret code to associate with other members. In that respect ISKCON is not a cult. Everyone is welcome to come to the mandir as long as they follow their traditions. I am appalled at the fact that at the mandir that you go to, they expects people to eventually get initiated or get lost.


I was in VRndAvan and decided to attend mangal arati one day. Then Tulasi Arati had tears in my eyes. After this everyone sat down to chant their usual rounds when I meditated on <Whoever and whatever I wanted to -- nobody's business> and was leaving, when a Mataji caught me and started arguing because I did not bring my beads to the temple. First I said "My beads are at home" She said "How could you forget beads !!??!!" Then I said "I don't necessarily chant the Hare KRshNa mahamantra on beads" She got angry "The Goswamis also chanted! Are you bigger than them ??!!"

Excuse my for saying so but when you go to a mandir of a particular sampradaye, you have to follow their rules. An Arya Samaji cannot go to the ISKCON mandir and tell them that he believes in praying to the un-manifest God and not expect to be kicked out. Conversely, the bhajans sung in the Arya Samaj mandirs are not in praise of any deity and they frown upon anyone singing bhajans in praise of Ramji or Krishanji or Shivji, as it conflicts with their line of thinking. So, if I were to take part in a chanting session in an ISKCON mandir in which they chant the mahamantra on beads, I will have to conform to that code. OR go somewhere else.

I am sorry to know that your experiences with them have been negative/confrontational, but you must exercise common sense and visit them only if you want to follow their traditions; else visit a generic, non-Westernized Hindu mandir where everything goes. Conducting Ram Bhakti in a Shiv mandir would be as inappropriate as non-mahamantra chanting in an ISKCON mandir. Why should anyone bend to my whims? If I visit your house, I would expect to behave within the guidelines that you have set forth for running your household. I cannot force my values on you. There has to be a balance between my desires and obligations. If I desire to visit you at your house, I am obligated to accept your house rules. I don't have to accept those rules as universal and agree to follow the same rules at my household though.

Pranam.

[rteixeirapl]

Namaskar smaranan,

Thank you for you reply.

Actually, my experience at a ISKCON temple is quite equal to yours. When I started my studies ISKCON was all I got. So I bought Bhagavad Gita as is is, a lot of books by Prabhupada and everybody wanted to be my close friend. I got indeed many friends. Later on, when I started to study a little bit more and started to quote others saints and acharyas, they became very strange with me. I started to feel like I wasn't welcome anymore, which was very sad, because even thought I didn't agree with all their points, I still had (and still have) sincere affection for all of them.

In one occasion, after listening to a long Bhagavad Gita class intended almost only for justifying guru paramparā, the importance of initiation and infallibility of the guru, I said something to a ex-close (unfortunately) friend that made me loose all hopes to find more spiritual friendships there. I said: "There is only one guru, God". Volcanoes inside him, as you said. You imagine the rest. Till now I am considered kind of a asura intended to destroy the dharma. :( I became very sad because my interests was sincere. That is why I think that ISKCON became kind of a sect, closed inside their own walls.

Thank you one more time for your reply to this post,
Hari Om,
R

[smaranam]

Conducting Ram Bhakti in a Shiv mandir would be as inappropriate as non-mahamantra chanting in an ISKCON mandir. Why should anyone bend to my whims? If I visit your house, I would expect to behave within the guidelines that you have set forth for running your household. I cannot force my values on you. There has to be a balance between my desires and obligations. If I desire to visit you at your house, I am obligated to accept your house rules. I don't have to accept those rules as universal and agree to follow the same rules at my household though.

Pranam.

PraNAm Believer ji

So, a NO-OP is forcing my values on them? I only attended Mangal Aarati. Is that a crime? To attend Mangal Aarati? I love KRshNa too. It is not like I worship someone else. Also, follow their worship conventions in the temple.

It was this Mataji's desire to bring me "into the fold" as always, as usual, that made her strike a conversation with me. That is all. What is "non-mahamantra chanting?" I did not go and sit in their midst. It was just a natural hang out after the aarati. And I was leaving. She caught me.

Hare KRshNa

[Believer]

Namaste Smaranam,

I am sorry for how they behaved and I apologize on their behalf. I don't even know why I am doing that because in spite of being associated with them off and on for a long, long time, I have never been one of them. I just wish that they would be more reasonable in their behavior and that we would leave them alone if we don't like their practices. After all, we are all part of the bigger Hindu family, even though they try to exclude themselves from that title/grouping. I don't get along too well with some of my cousins, but I can't disown them as they are all related either to my mother or to my father.:) Similarly ISKCON is related to my beloved Krishanji and no matter what differences I have with them, I tolerate them. Hope we can conclude this discussion on a positive note. Jai Shri Krishan!

Pranam.

[smaranam]

Please don't apologize. You have nothing to do with it, but no one need apologize. I have visited ISKCON temples only on occasion but should not go there that is all. I used to have this "how can I walk past KRshNa's temple without going in?" but not anymore. Had I listened to KRshNa years ago it would be different.

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Pranams smaranam ji,

Your certainly a special soul and have great Bhakti to Sri Krsna, but I think an important point is there is no monolithic Hinduism, monolithic Gaudiya Vaishnavism, or even a monolithic ISKCON.

Ys

Md

[satay]

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[grames]

Smaranam Ji,

Hare Krshna!

Did you forget to see the love of that dasi to take you to Krshna with her whatever she knew or did you feel you are already krshna's special so no one else can show you the love for Krshna?

Krshna is more merciful and shower thousand fold pleasure to those who love and respect His devotees however meek or idiots they are. And He leaves the place where there is sense of He is mine and i am His proud and advanced devotee. In devotion, the best devotee consider himself the last in the queue to see, meet Krshna and Krshna waits with pleasure and suspense for that last devotee. So why dasanudasanudasa is the best position and situation.

Hare Krshna!



Please don't apologize. You have nothing to do with it, but no one need apologize. I have visited ISKCON temples only on occasion but should not go there that is all. I used to have this "how can I walk past KRshNa's temple without going in?" but not anymore. Had I listened to KRshNa years ago it would be different.

[smaranam]

Did you forget to see the love of that dasi to take you to Krshna with her whatever she knew

Hare KRshNa, Gramesji,

Till date, I have only felt love for these devotees. Yes, part of it is concern for you as a soul and I do see that. I had no personal grudge against her. On the contrary, I have also taken scorn, contempt, hostility from people in this group in stride. For years and years my feet kept going back to them out of love and admiration, despite their reprimanding and name calling.

Believer ji called it lack of common sense. He did not call my repeatedly going back to them despite everything I faced, as “love and respect.” I do see his point. What you have quoted above was an answer to that – although it sounds haughty to you taken out of context.

Just because some devotees do not believe something, does not mean you have to let them continue what they want to think and make plans for you just for the sake of “the love that this dasi has to take you to Krishna”

Do you see the same “innocent love” in the Christian Fundamentalists and Missionaries to take Hindus to Christ? I do, but if you don't, why not?


In devotion, the best devotee consider himself the last in the queue to see, meet Krshna and Krshna waits with pleasure and suspense for that last devotee. So why dasanudasanudasa is the best position and situation
Hare Krshna!
KRshNa is like the sun. May everyone have KrshNa. Case closed.

What is all this "consider himself the last in the queue to see, meet Krshna"
Why should there be a queue to meet KrshNa? How do you expect two lovers to survive in long queues? KRshNa does not say you have to wait in a queue. To Him the jnAni-devotee is the best.

Moreover, your statement seems to be an oxymoron. The best devotees have already met KRshNa. Then, after this they are supposed to pretend to not have met Him and go and stand in a long queue? At that rate sakhis, Nanda Yashoda, Madhumangal MansukhA et al will never meet or see KRshNa.

_/\_

kRshNAya vAsudevAya haraye paramAtmane
praNAta klesha nAshAya govindAya namo namah: _/\_

[Amrut]

Namaste all,

Once believer ji says, s/he is not officially connected to ISKCON and on another occasion, s/he says, 'I apologize on their behalf' Why? to apologize whom you are not adhering too and they are not in your control, nor do they do what you ask them to?

Smaranam di Jai Shri Krishna :)

I agree with you :)

There are two calves. suppose you wish to tie them to a tree for some reason (dont ask what's the reason :D )

Calf 1 is cuddled with love and then slowly taken to a tree and then tied down.

Calf 2 is forcefully pulled to the tree and tied down.

Now, when you untie the knot and set the calf free, which calf will run away from you and which wont?

Coming back to OP's question

There are traditionally 4 sampradAya-s in Vaishnavism. The founders, who are actually not founders but revivalists of their respective traditions, have established 4 main matha-s and established four siddhAnta-s. These are

1. visiSTAdvaita - SrI rAmAnujAcharya jI - SrI vaiShNava
2. bhedabheda SrI nimbArkAcArya jI - kumAra vaiShNava
3. Suddha advaita - SrI viShNusvAmI jI - rudra vaiShNava
4. dvaita - SrI mAdhvAcArya jI - brahma vaiShNava

Each has their own unique philosophies. Perhaps grames ji and others can elaborate

From the dvaita, SrI chaitanya mahAprabhu's achintya bheda-abheda came into existence.

AcArya-s from each sampradAya has written a commentary on brahma-sutra claiming support of their siddhAnta and in process refuting other siddhAta-s (as truth can only be one.)

There are also rAmAnadI-s, a sect formed by SrI rAmAnandA jI. they worship SrI rAma as the supreme Godhead and follow VA philosophy.

Hence there has to be some difference in explanations.

ISKCON is a branch or an independent matha which follow Gaudiya Vaishnavism (GV). visvanAtha chakravarty has also written a commentary on gItA.

What matters is the ways and working of ISKCON. Some GV's do not like the way Srila Prabhupada and specially his disciples were and are preaching.

The fact that Srila Prabhupada himself didnt appoint any successor makes me believe that there was none who was considered as faithful and capable to carry on the tradition. For the first time, I have heard that there is GBC, a Governing Body Council for any spiritual organization, specially those attached to an established siddhAnta.

Sure there are errors in translations, as we are all humans. But the fact is that SP's own writings are now being changed in the newer versions of Gita that are published by ISKCON.

This is more of a concern.

Regarding translation, everyone tries to adhere to a siddhanta and hence some statements are taken literal for some, implied meanings are taken so as to align with the siddhanta. The writing style and the refuting style of SP is more aggressive and hence some find it not so friendly.

The problem is not in word-2-word translation, but in the full verse translation. Again commentary, at times, stray away from the main translation. This is my personal opinion. But when it comes to explaining bhakti, his translations are beautiful.

OM

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Pranams rteixeirapl,


I wouldn't be put off totally within Gaudia Vaishnavism as it is a great tradition and Philosophy and practice, there are other versions within that tradition of Bhagavad Gita that give more perspectives on Bhakti Yoga.

When I am online I use this version, it also gives it's own translations followed by commentaries of all the 4 main Vaishnava Sampradayas Acharyas, how close the translations and commentaries of the original I do not know, as I have never read exclusively their translations and commentaries on Bhagavad Gita.

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/index-english.html

If you have the chance the translation by Srila Narayana Swami is very good . I cant find one online as I read from the Hard Back edition. Included is
The Bhavanuvada of the Sarartha-varsini-tika The Innermost Intention of the Shower of Essential Meanings by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur

and His own purports Sarartha-Varshini Prakashika-vritti


The Sanskrit is more elaborate which may add a further perspective.


Isckon is a very nice place to get association with devotees, which in this day and age is hard to find, they have a great set up and while there maybe some institutional trappings of some within the movement if one keeps ones head down and not get into sticky issues things can pass without to much event.



Very well written and fair assessment by Amrut Ji.


Ys
Md

[grames]

Smaranam Ji!

Sometimes what is given to you may not be just for you :) So, don't take my previous message as something directed to you personally.

In Prema, there is everything and again there is nothing! Only very few can understand the sattvic meaning of the everything and nothing in prema. No one has the potential to plan for you or your spritual progress when we are utterly helpless by ourselves and the plan if at all there is one comes from Krshna Himself and we all agree. Giving you the practices or methods is just a vaishnava etiquette and you are not asked or even required to make someone your "Guru" just because they have given the instruction as what they follow. But, etiquette with good intend is something to be honored and respected without any grudge and i am very sure you are not someone to know or learn this from a stupid person like me.

There is always a boundary where someone can operate or should not and i am not averse to a 'innocent love' preaching as long as it is not a dictation that i MUST follow. So, there is a small difference and i don't start blaming the great wisdom behind the group rather i will understand the limits of the preacher/follower and the 'innocence' behind their eagerness to uplift you.

You are right. Krshna is THE SUN - everyone has access to Him in general and what Krshna cannot do?? Tell me. But, what is that we can do? Where is this actual "Surrender unto Him"? Those who knows Him do not know Him and those who does not know, Knows Him for sure.


Suffocating siddhanta. Not sure how it is so... but the ultimate Prema Rasa reservoir strives all Her best to make sure everyone gets the nectar of Krshna Prema before Her. The queue here is not like your ration queue by any means and here it simply means, a Vaishnva follows the footsteps of Shri Prahalada and he desire Krshna prema for everyone first before his turn even if Krshna Himself gives one such opportunity to be in His fold. That is the "DasAnuDasAnu Dasa character and he always pleads, Krshna take every beings into your fold first before you worry about me or my upliftment as i am the lowest of the low.

In Prema, there is no room for Jnana - Jnana once matured, there is no need of it as it would have already shown the path where Krshna reveal Himself. Once Krshna reveals Himself, there is nothing else to obtain. What does this sequence means? He has given the secret in Gita and also He has given the secret of Prema - Connect with Me with the intense desire to reach Me and don't worry about your strength of Jnana and such Jnana will come as a phala of intense devotion. At least, in the Bhakthi schools though Jnana is important, we are humble and modest enough to admit that we are not capable of understanding Krshna without the help of Krshna Himself! Also, we do not advocate or believe Krshna Prema can start with just "Prema" and "Prema" for most of us is not a tool to start with rather it is a gift of Lord once you surrender and submit yourself sincerely. There is no question of one sided love here and if there is Love, it is always mutual between you and Krshna! Bhakthas are even more humble and modest that we even declare our inability to have devotion unto Krshna as our biggest weakness and forget about being or becoming Jnanin. Of course, there are alternate opinions and also followers to them but i can assure you, those who 'develop' their love for Krshna gradually are much more successful than who believe in "auto" unlock of Prema in the heart by their self effort and desire alone.

I am sorry and i am not qualified to question you or give you advice - after reading all your messages i know your heart and any responses in this thread is in no way meant for you!

Hare Krshna!

[smaranam]

Of course, there are alternate opinions and also followers to them but i can assure you, those who 'develop' their love for Krshna gradually are much more successful than who believe in "auto" unlock of Prema in the heart by their self effort and desire alone.
Hare KRshNa, Gramesji

I do not want to write more on this thread but I hope you were not thinking I am suggesting the statement in blue? Of course it has to be 2 sided, and nothing nothing nothing can be from our side, it is all KRshNa's kRpA, wish, choice. The devotee just realizes that their relationship was eternal but they just woke up, while KRshNa always remembered.

No one here is talking of auto-unlocking prema by self effort and desire. Oh no. It comes from KrshNa. KRshNa drives, always. I cannot write more that this in a post, but perhaps you've got mail

O Lord, nothing is mine, everything is Yours. Your wish.

What is funny is that you are the 2nd person who has perhaps thought I am suggesting something like that.


_/\_

[Believer]

Namaste,


Once believer ji says, s/he is not officially connected to ISKCON and on another occasion, s/he says, 'I apologize on their behalf' Why? to apologize whom you are not adhering too and they are not in your control, nor do they do what you ask them to?
I am part of all Hindu traditions/sampradayes and I am not officially affiliated with any one of them. As a Hindu I claim all of them to be part of my heritage. So if someone is hurt by ISKCON, I will apologize to him on their behalf as they are part of my heritage, my traditions, my existence. If a Hindu has been wronged by a Hindu institution, I find it cathartic to show my concern/respect/affection for that person. So, it is a mix of many things that brings me to offer apologies on behalf of those I don't control, am not fully committed to and don't fully agree with. Consoling someone who is hurting should never be constrained by our affiliations. It is a humane thing to do.

Pranam.

PS, BTW, right under my screen name Believer on my posts, it says, 'Older male native Hindu'. That means I am a HE. :)

[Amrut]

Pranams,


Namaste,


I am part of all Hindu traditions/sampradayes and I am not officially affiliated with any one of them. As a Hindu I claim all of them to be part of my heritage. So if someone is hurt by ISKCON, I will apologize to him on their behalf as they are part of my heritage, my traditions, my existence. If a Hindu has been wronged by a Hindu institution, I find it cathartic to show my concern/respect/affection for that person. So, it is a mix of many things that brings me to offer apologies on behalf of those I don't control, am not fully committed to and don't fully agree with. Consoling someone who is hurting should never be constrained by our affiliations. It is a humane thing to do.

Pranam.

PS, BTW, right under my screen name Believer on my posts, it says, 'Older male native Hindu'. That means I am a HE. :)

Thank you Mr. Believer ji for clarification. It was dumb on my part to write s/he - take one from me 'apologies'.

When you see someone doing wrong or something like that, Is this feeling 'sadness' or 'guiltiness' ?

If I am sad, I wont apologize for the thing that I have not done, but I console the 'victim' (please don't take it harshly) and share with him/her what I believe is true.). Hence I gave my explanation of a 'Calf'

Perhaps it's a matter of 'collective responsibility' and/or 'individual responsibility'.

Anyways, as OP has asked, whats your experience about ISKCON?

I like the quality of samosa, sweets and other products in general. I like their effort to protect cows. But, if someone preaches in the same way to a civilized person who is already rooted in Indian Tradition like a hippie, then ... it wont work - agree?

We do not force anything one anyone. Thats why there are different kinds of fasting, one time eating, only on fruits and mink, only on water and then nir-jala, survive only on air (you can quit air ;) ). Even while doing japa, we ask and advice others to start from a small time and then increase time duration gradually. All cant start their carrier with a century and then in each innings they hit a century :D

or may me, it was force of love that smaraman ji failed to experience this 'lovely force' - I am the third one smaranam ji :D

P.S. Today, I am in a lighter mood

Hari OM

[Believer]

Namaste,


When you see someone doing wrong or something like that, Is this feeling 'sadness' or 'guiltiness' ?

When a Hindu heart is aching, give your over-analytical mind some rest and just do something positive. It could be showing sympathy, or offering an apology (even though you did no wrong) or saying something to console the person. There are moments for being analytical and logical and there are other moments when you react to a situation of sadness with something positive, without giving any thought to what you are doing. Hope that makes some sense, else come back in 10 years and reread this thread. :)

Pranam.

[Amrut]

Namaste,



When a Hindu heart is aching, give your over-analytical mind some rest and just do something positive. It could be showing sympathy, or offering an apology (even though you did no wrong) or saying something to console the person. There are moments for being analytical and logical and there are other moments when you react to a situation of sadness with something positive, without giving any thought to what you are doing. Hope that makes some sense, else come back in 10 years and reread this thread. :)

Pranam.

Namaste Thank you :)

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Dear friends,
Hari Om,

Please, do not consider my post as offensive. I'm just a student trying to get knowledge.

From my actual stage of learning sanskrit and comparing translations, I've noticed some different perspectives in Prabhupada books and commentaries that takes ISKCON far away from the real text as it is (the texts are full of interpolations and extrapolations). Some shlokas translated by Prabhupada are completely different from their respective sanskrit correspondents, and the purports are very biased. Sometimes - that is to say, almost everytime, Prabhupada doesn't even give his considerations at the Purport, but at the translation itself, changing the meaning of the words, adding words and even phrases in the translation space, which for me is a aggression to the shastra.
Namaste,
Prabhupada is an acharya of Vedic Dharma and his interpretations are therefore authoritative.
Also, there is no such thing as "truthful translation", because every translation is an interpretation and vice versa.


I have a lot of ISKCON friends and with respect try to talk with them, but unfortunately, they quote paramparā and Prabhupada in defense of the arguments. But I've seen that Prabhupada defending Prabhupada is kind of useless... I'm new to HDF, and my doubts became more intense when I saw that there is a forum for discussions about "God in Hindu Dharma" in the views of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism.. and Hare Krishna. That came to me kind of confirming my thoughts about ISKCON, that they have became kind of a sect that started differentiating from traditional Vaishnavism.
Yes their quote of paramparā and Prabhupada is a valid defence since Prabhupada is an accepted acharya. ISKCON is considered as yet separate from even the rest of Vaishnavism, and that is also okay because ISKCON, imo, is purported to be the implant of Dharma in the western world.


I'm just a student, and humbly would like to ask you about this thought of mine.

a) Is ISKCON considered a traditional Vaishnava group?
After everything is said and done, Vaishnavism imho retains an edge in as being the leader in some sense of Hinduism as a whole in this yuga, and therefore Prabhupada's effort to bring Vaishnavism (and hence the whole of Hinduism following) to the west - a phenomenon otherwise known as ISKCON - is Dharma's very own effort for survival in these bleak times. I think ISKCON has at least to some extent succeeded in this; on the other hand at home in Bengal Dharma has met with ever increased decline and decimation - savants like Prabhupada were visionary enough to know all this decades ago. In the west, on the other hand, thanks largely to infrastructure of ISKCON, today we see that Hindus of all hue are now springing up as a follow - Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, Murugan bhaktas and counting.



b) The separation in HDF is due to what I was already thinking (ISKCON have different perspectives and non-traditional analysis of texts and became kind of a sect for itself, centered in Prabhupada)?
ISKCON is Vasinavaism adaption for the western, so if one is an Indian it is useless to follow ISKCON. But that is my opinion.


c) What do you think about Prabhupada and his translations?
I rate him higher than Vivekananda and Shankaracharya.


Please, I humbly propose not to start a fight, since I believe that everybody that seeks for God, in any sect, system of philosophy or any other way is worthy of respect. I respect Swami Prabhupada, all ISKCON members and devotees, and acknowledge Prabhupada's value.
That is cool.


But, since we are at the forum of the Vaishnava and not at the forum of the Hare Krishna, I'm proposing this topic to know your points of view.

Please, accept my sincere pranam, beforehand apologizing if my words caused any harshness,
R
All the sects and sampradayas of Hinduism are like living entities, and they are full of respect for each other. Outside this circle, there are death cults, but that is another discussion..:)


P.S.: I am otherwise very critical of Prabhupada and ISKCON, and also the present forms Vasinavism has inherited (mainly in trying to carry more than it can lift).

[Avyaydya]

Namaste Kalicharan,

Yes their quote of paramparā and Prabhupada is a valid defence since Prabhupada is an accepted acharya. ISKCON is considered as yet separate from even the rest of Vaishnavism, and that is also okay because ISKCON, imo, is purported to be the implant of Dharma in the western world.

After everything is said and done, Vaishnavism imho retains an edge in as being the leader in some sense of Hinduism as a whole in this yuga, and therefore Prabhupada's effort to bring Vaishnavism (and hence the whole of Hinduism following) to the west - a phenomenon otherwise known as ISKCON - is Dharma's very own effort for survival in these bleak times. I think ISKCON has at least to some extent succeeded in this; on the other hand at home in Bengal Dharma has met with ever increased decline and decimation - savants like Prabhupada were visionary enough to know all this decades ago. In the west, on the other hand, thanks largely to infrastructure of ISKCON, today we see that Hindus of all hue are now springing up as a follow - Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, Murugan bhaktas and counting.

ISKCON is Vasinavaism adaption for the western, so if one is an Indian it is useless to follow ISKCON. But that is my opinion.

I rate him higher than Vivekananda and Shankaracharya.
Namaste Kalicharan,

Interesting viewpoints. I am a westener, and I must say I have never felt the attraction of Ishkon. In my perception they are positioned in the same religious segment where sects like Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Evangelist churches operate. For a time all these roamed our streets stopping people to bring them the light of their God. I have often wondered what the influence of sects like Ishkon is on larger society. They do their best to be very visible, and yes Ishkon certainly exploits the most and biggest Hindu temples whereas most traditional Hindu communities often seek refuge in back rooms. But at the same time by their sect-like nature they live on the fringe of society. They have a positive influence on their own people but those more or less live with their backs to society. They however give these people a more positive consciousness and that radiates to society.

But I think great thinkers like Vivekananda, Yogananda, Gandhi, Maharishi Yogi, Osho, Rabindranath Tagore, Deepak Chopra, and others have had a huge impact on Western society. Why? Because they were a huge inspiration to western intellectuals and future leaders. Even if they do not openly speak about it, many were deeply inspired by their messages. This influence may not be recognizable as Hinduism, but it certainly became visible as Dharma in Western society. Dharma is the essence of religion, all the traditions, techniques, scriptures, customs etc are very descriptive for Indian culture but not for Dharma. And exporting Hindu temples is not the same as exporting Dharma.

Cultures learn from each other, and there is a lot to learn from each other. But we have to allow others to take what they need and use it in a way that fits them best. If Hinduism can create an elevated Christianity, that may be a more effective way to improve Dharma than conversion to Hinduism. We should not react with, those Christians are stealing our Yoga techniques. Copying itself is the highest praise. After all, if consciousness rises all people benefit from that. We should rather take an example of the writers of the Vedas who chose to be nameless. The West has been moved by Hindu thought much longer than people think. In fact the colonization of India brought Hindu thought to the West once again since Roman times. And that had a profound influence in intellectual circles. They often did not openly admit that because the religious climate did not permit foreign ideas to spread in that way. But it happened.

Today a more pressing question is what can India learn from the West. India finds it harder to pick up the technological revolution than countries like Japan, Korea, China, because this also means a social revolution. India has seen many social revolutions. Krishna and Buddha were important social reformers too. India because of its unique culture has to find a unique answer to integrate technology in the lives of people without disintegrating social structures and creating tremendous poverty. But India has some of the finest minds in the world and other Asian countries show that one can create original solutions very successfully.

I am not a great fan of cults that promote Moksha as the ultimate goal in life for all people. I do not believe that is good for society. I do not believe that was the message or purpose of social reformers like Krishna and Buddha. They reformed religion to reform society, because religion had degenerated. As much as people try to maintain respect towards all traditions and cults, which is a duty in the line of Dharma, we should not turn a blind eye to the widespread corruption that exists as well. If India is so utterly corrupt today religion plays an important part in that. Because religion is the protector of Dharm. If religion leads people into outer display, ritualism or escapism in stead of upholding Dharm than society can only suffer.

In fact the Mahabharata describes how a society becomes corrupt and how the priesthood living on the gifts of Kings choose side with corrupt leaders and Adharm. Teachings like �this world is an illusion� remind me very much of Christiany�s �suffering is the path to heaven� that long prevented people from fighting for a more righteous society. Such religion is an obstacle to Dharma. Meanwhile the elite live very happily in the greatest luxury seeking their heaven on earth. It is a minor solace that they burn in hell or be among the victims in next lives.

India can learn something from the west too. People in the West fought very bravely to regain their humane rights with tremendous sacrifice. For though many Indians want to see all westerns as colonizers, in reality the westerners were only the first to be colonized by the same elite and living conditions were often far worse in the west than in the colonies. It was the enlightenment in the west that awakened the spirit for decolonization in the colonies. But where the west continued to free herself of rigid power structures many colonies fell back in local power structures that previously served western masters.

A country like China that was never really colonized does much better. Though Marxism really uprooted their culture, by destroying old power structures it gave China enormous potential for change. And I predict that once they have established well-spread prosperity, old tradition will revive rapidly. People are always so afraid for losing their culture, but reality is that culture is virtually impossible to destroy. It is in the very genes of the people and it only changes in appearances.

But there is also something very strange about culture. Cultural expressions like language or customs often survive with people who adopted it when the original people have long moved on. That goes for the Celtic culture. I goes for the Basks who preserve on old language from the Ural thousands of miles away. In South America there is a people who are the last carriers of the old Mayan culture but their ancestors are Arab migrants who adopted that culture. We really should not worry too much about keeping old cultural expressions alive, like Krishna we should worry more about creating a good future. Krishna is the maintainer of Dharma. We should not make the mistake of identifying Dharma with culture. The stories of the Ramayana and Mahabharata are easily understood by people of all cultures. A culture will survive in its form as long as it benefits its people, no longer.

It is the mistake to want to keep culture alive by keeping its outer appearances alive. Then it becomes like a snake that refuses to shake off its skin. That is what the Mahabharata is about. A new generation seeks to renew the culture while an old generation decaying wants to hold on to power. Hindus should not be afraid. They rather should take an example of Japan and see how a very traditional society effortlessly combines the old with the new, because Japan not fears but embraces continuous outer change. It is no threat to their soul. That makes this culture indestructible.

The best of Indian traditions creates very intelligent well educated people, but the worst of Indian social structures prevents them from using their abilities to the greatest benefit. Reform is badly needed. My feeling is that many people on this forum are living with their back to society too. Only wanting to talk about spiritual advancement but not about other advancement. And thinking that success depends on the number of Hindu temples. I think spiritual advances are better measured in social equality because that is where higher consciousness finds its most undeniable application. If a people are spiritually advanced it only is more tragic that they have to accept huge inequality. Huge inequality causes poverty even in the richest countries, because an economy can not sustain a high level on the needs or even extreme perversities of the rich who control the means. Hindu thought opened many western heart for a deeper warmth and care and they actually turned it in practice.

I do not believe in religion for religions sake, or religion for Gods sake, or religion for personal sake only. If it can no longer bring Dharm to society it lost its power. Wanting to quit the game is for losers, the Devas will never quit the game, they enjoy it too much. When Dharm rules society people enjoy it too. There is a story that Buddha was on the verge of withdrawing from this world, but then he heard a child cry.

[SKR108]

Namaste Smarnam,

First of all I am sorry that you have had some negative experiences with some over-zealous ISKCON devotees.

In a cult, you have to be tested to see if you can be trusted, then you have to be programmed in a certain way, you reach some milestones and become a member and only then you are given the secret code to associate with other members. In that respect ISKCON is not a cult. Everyone is welcome to come to the mandir as long as they follow their traditions. I am appalled at the fact that at the mandir that you go to, they expects people to eventually get initiated or get lost.



Excuse my for saying so but when you go to a mandir of a particular sampradaye, you have to follow their rules. An Arya Samaji cannot go to the ISKCON mandir and tell them that he believes in praying to the un-manifest God and not expect to be kicked out. Conversely, the bhajans sung in the Arya Samaj mandirs are not in praise of any deity and they frown upon anyone singing bhajans in praise of Ramji or Krishanji or Shivji, as it conflicts with their line of thinking. So, if I were to take part in a chanting session in an ISKCON mandir in which they chant the mahamantra on beads, I will have to conform to that code. OR go somewhere else.

I am sorry to know that your experiences with them have been negative/confrontational, but you must exercise common sense and visit them only if you want to follow their traditions; else visit a generic, non-Westernized Hindu mandir where everything goes. Conducting Ram Bhakti in a Shiv mandir would be as inappropriate as non-mahamantra chanting in an ISKCON mandir. Why should anyone bend to my whims? If I visit your house, I would expect to behave within the guidelines that you have set forth for running your household. I cannot force my values on you. There has to be a balance between my desires and obligations. If I desire to visit you at your house, I am obligated to accept your house rules. I don't have to accept those rules as universal and agree to follow the same rules at my household though.

Pranam.

That's all good, but ISKCON invites people off the street to visit their temples. I decided to go check them out and ended up getting scolded by some white guy for not using the beads they handed out properly. I just laughed at him and left.

[SKR108]

Namaste,
Prabhupada is an acharya of Vedic Dharma and his interpretations are therefore authoritative.
Also, there is no such thing as "truthful translation", because every translation is an interpretation and vice versa.


Yes their quote of paramparā and Prabhupada is a valid defence since Prabhupada is an accepted acharya. ISKCON is considered as yet separate from even the rest of Vaishnavism, and that is also okay because ISKCON, imo, is purported to be the implant of Dharma in the western world.


After everything is said and done, Vaishnavism imho retains an edge in as being the leader in some sense of Hinduism as a whole in this yuga, and therefore Prabhupada's effort to bring Vaishnavism (and hence the whole of Hinduism following) to the west - a phenomenon otherwise known as ISKCON - is Dharma's very own effort for survival in these bleak times. I think ISKCON has at least to some extent succeeded in this; on the other hand at home in Bengal Dharma has met with ever increased decline and decimation - savants like Prabhupada were visionary enough to know all this decades ago. In the west, on the other hand, thanks largely to infrastructure of ISKCON, today we see that Hindus of all hue are now springing up as a follow - Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, Murugan bhaktas and counting.



ISKCON is Vasinavaism adaption for the western, so if one is an Indian it is useless to follow ISKCON. But that is my opinion.


I rate him higher than Vivekananda and Shankaracharya.


That is cool.


All the sects and sampradayas of Hinduism are like living entities, and they are full of respect for each other. Outside this circle, there are death cults, but that is another discussion..:)


P.S.: I am otherwise very critical of Prabhupada and ISKCON, and also the present forms Vasinavism has inherited (mainly in trying to carry more than it can lift).

Prabhupada isn't even accepted acarya in his own tradition. Ranked higher than Sankaracharya? Hmmm, no way.

[Sudas Paijavana]

Namaste,

Someone brought up the subject about the beads. Is that really true, does one really get condemned for forgetting to bring beads to various ISKCON temples? Or was that a dramatization of a trivial event?

When I plan a temple visit, I usually call them beforehand to ask about what they hold as proper temple etiquette for attending their temple (even though me visiting a temple is like a once in a blue moon occurrence).

[smaranam]

~~~~~

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste Avyaydya,

I agree there could not be any broad brush applied to understand such issues in black and white.

Therefore, though there is a concern about sectarianism that is genuine, but practically speaking sects are required, even desirable, to preserve diversity in society. And diversity belongs to more evolved mode of living, as we both would agree.

For example, in my view it is not possible for even a polytheist like me to be worshipping both Shiva and Vishnu at the same time. I still need to go visit their temples in different areas. So the need for sects, sampradayas, is surely there on the modal level, if not on the temporal level (because a poly can be Shaivaite today and Vaisnava tomorrow).

There is also something called "world movement" which though outwardly seen to be the body of Inertia, or Ignorance, may yet contain Intelligence of highest order within its essence. Even a temple is not an ordinary architecture - it is meant to be a practical Yantra that has the power to exert higher consciousness and the joy of life over even the lay passers by.

Customs are the interface between Dharma and the region of its adaptation. Even within India though the Bharat tribe was the one to have discovered it, Dharma flowed to other parts and today we do see how it has adapted very well in innumerable diverse ways in all the expanse.

On the other hand, a mere transfer of customs and symbols is surely meaningless. For example, the Nazi swastika seen as an import of Hindu swastika is meaningless.

But then we should give at least some more due to an acharya (if he isn't an acharya I don't know who else is) like Prabhupada who knew well what he was doing. You may not see a lot of that insight in his writings, but there is a lot to be found and learned there into the practises he established.

Pranam Smaranam ji,

I don't say that Vaishnavism with a more Advaitic tinge is not there, or isn't right, but as a neutral observer in this regard I've found Vishnu worship in the main to be more along the lines Prabhupada understands it as. But I can be wrong.

There is always some part of KrishNa that can never be absorbed or identified with: this is as far the approach can go. There is always some mystery about Sri Vishnu that remains till the end. Anyway, this is the impression I've got. If ISKCON wants to believe and commit to its own way that it thinks is right, and there is evidence for it in texts other than merely credibility of the acharya, we should respect that. Though you have also said the same thing.

[Viraja]

You can never be a direct associate of KRshNa because that will be apa-siddhAnta and mayavad. You are servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of ............…..KRshNa!”


One of the fundamental concepts of Hinduism is that you can assume any of the 9 bhavas or modes of worship with your personal deity, daasya bhaava being one of them. There are even modes of worship of personal deity such as friend, lover, etc. Why is ISKCON going against such fundamentals of Hinduism? I think the organization without its founder has lost its direction and purpose...

[Believer]

Namaste,

If I find samosas to be too spicy for me, I switch to burfee. By finding faults with another Hindu organization, I am exposing myself to the same hypocrisy and ill-will that I am accusing that organization of. Why not just 'let them be' and go where I find my ego nurtured and and made to feel welcome/happy? Some of the devotees like to be driven by dictatorial 'senior devotees', either out of fear or for their own good, and in turn they behave badly towards new comers. Just ignore their 'holier than thou' behavior and stay focused on your own spiritual development instead of counting all the pimples on their unsightly faces.

Pranam.

[smaranam]

~~~~~

[smaranam]

~~~~~

[grames]

Dear Virajaji,

Mode of worship is different from 'mode' of getting there - The DasAnuDasAnuDasa is where you start before establishing the "bhava" to the fullest. This is not ISKCON's btw and it is very much the Alwars spiritual life style and recommendation. Shri ThondarAdiPodi Alwar - the greatest example of DasaAnuDasAnuDasa - One who glorified the devotee of Lord as the highest noble path to reach Lord. Shri MaduraKavi Alwar - he only sung in praise of his master - Nammalvar and another DasAnu Dasa!

Do not throw a judgement with either half information or partial understanding and how a devotee of Lord always inspires you and shows you only the right path.

Hare Krshna

[Viraja]

Dear Virajaji,

Mode of worship is different from 'mode' of getting there - The DasAnuDasAnuDasa is where you start before establishing the "bhava" to the fullest. This is not ISKCON's btw and it is very much the Alwars spiritual life style and recommendation. Shri ThondarAdiPodi Alwar - the greatest example of DasaAnuDasAnuDasa - One who glorified the devotee of Lord as the highest noble path to reach Lord. Shri MaduraKavi Alwar - he only sung in praise of his master - Nammalvar and another DasAnu Dasa!

Do not throw a judgement with either half information or partial understanding and how a devotee of Lord always inspires you and shows you only the right path.

Hare Krshna

Namaste Ji,

1. I am not against DasanuDas bhava.

2. What I said is that, while one may be a 'dasaanudaasa', that does not mean one cannot have his own 'personal' relationship with god if he so wishes.

3. There may be countless devotees who had success with dasaanudaas bhava. But there are also another countless who have had success, without a guru (Nammazhwar) who took to some mode or bhava of bhakti to god (like Nammazhwar in his works, I believe, in 'Thiruvaimozhi' for instance, where he wears 'Sari' and praises god as his 'lover'). Also, how about Thirumalai Ananthaazhwan? He is known to be the reason an entire clan of people started addressing themselves as 'Madhurakavi Daasa'. He was such a foremost daasaanudaas for Srimad Ramanuja. Yet, he also did his own kainkaryam personally to Sri Thiruvenkatachalapathi. If doing personal seva to god is sought after, why should that be stopped?

4. The above point, especially #s 1 and 2 are apparent from my previous response. I believe even a dumb person who has no spiritual training can be correct at times! It does not always take someone who is 'intelligent and extremely well-learnt' to think right!

[grames]

Dear ji.,


2. What I said is that, while one may be a 'dasaanudaasa', that does not mean one cannot have his own 'personal' relationship with god if he so wishes.


DasAnuDasAnuDasa is not a Bhava - Its a process! You can never be Dasa to another one once Krshna and you are connected by this Bhava!

3. There may be countless devotees who had success with dasaanudaas bhava. But there are also another countless who have had success, without a guru (Nammazhwar) who took to some mode or bhava of bhakti to god (like Nammazhwar in his works, I believe, in 'Thiruvaimozhi' for instance, where he wears 'Sari' and praises god as his 'lover'). Also, how about Thirumalai Ananthaazhwan? He is known to be the reason an entire clan of people started addressing themselves as 'Madhurakavi Daasa'. He was such a foremost daasaanudaas for Srimad Ramanuja. Yet, he also did his own kainkaryam personally to Sri Thiruvenkatachalapathi. If doing personal seva to god is sought after, why should that be stopped?

You are asking interesting questions but i don't want to answer them :). Just a caution... assuming the Nithya Sooris did not have Guru is ignorance and also does not encourage any personal promotion that you can attain any greatness by assuming their position. So, someone with out a Guru falls flat and get lost for lives.

You are confusing and conflicting and i do not see a clear thought here. Personal seva is not done as per your whimsical wish - that or such seva is still done adhering to the Guru's teaching and training. Only someone with extra ordinary ego will assume they know something out of nowhere or from NONE but such people never done anything good to themselves. Vaishavas do not give any room for such conduct and it is very important to adhere to the DasaAnuDasAnuDasa process of learning - the system and path to reach the Lord and the Teacher in this ladder of Dasas is fortunately our beloved Shriman Narayana. Unfortunately He does not and did not give short cuts to anyone and made sure there is only one authentic learning process! :)


4. The above point, especially #s 1 and 2 are apparent from my previous response. I believe even a dumb person who has no spiritual training can be correct at times! It does not always take someone who is 'intelligent and extremely well-learnt' to think right!

Correct At time - This is out of how many millions of possibilities and why choose a life of negative probabilities? No one bets on total unknowns and an occasional correctness is in fact, NOT correct. Knowing the greats, respecting the stalwarts, following their foot steps sincerely are in fact not the idea of dumbs or idiots but in fact it is intelligents who with least ego understand and accept their inability and lack of knowledge that they have to gain by following such. I am a self proclaimed Lover of Lord does not have any success rather it makes you worst and it is better to remain dumb instead of seeking a false designation of Lover of Lord when someone have no such real interest. A dumb or idiot is still harmless to himself/herself until they start to believe they have attained something by a probability of being right out of infinite chances.

If you look at the entire arguments, you should immediately see and recognize the EGO flowing all over that why should i be wrong and i should be recognized as right. This is not helpful or useful and instead of satisfying the EGO, do shift the focus and start to satisfy the soul and see if that has any quest and thirst for the Krhsna Prema.

Hare Krshna

[Viraja]

Namaste Grames ji,

In Kaliyuga, man's mind sways from various causes, and faith in god is dwindling. Man doubts everything and in many cases his doubts are genuine. If it is spirituality, it is a doubt whether man can find a 'true dasa' to god to which he can serve as a 'daasaanu daas'. Even if he identifies one, he may not be in a position to serve him on every occassion each day. That is why, god himself has made it easy for the mankind to reach him in Kaliyuga - which is by direct and personal 'naama sankeerthana'.

Regarding your question on whether or not I have Krishna prema - I do not know that myself. All I know is that "I develop my baseline" being devoted to god (you can see my recent post to know what I mean) and I am sincere in my pursuit!

Good day to you!

[grames]

Dear Virajaji.,

You are good and so why you are giving room for information. Everyone has doubts once they start to seek and cultivate the faith that, you will be given that BEST "True Dasa" as that is the promise of Lord that He will keep the chain or sampradaya continuing. Do you know how old the Sri Sampradaya itself - so getting our doubts cleared is also important before we identify and accept a genuine Dasa.

In Gita, He clearly says, once you are true and seek the genuine Guru, He arranges for it! So, i have no other source of guidance than this and i would also recommend the same - so your doubt of finding one should not be a worry as there are many!

Along side, Spiritual quest is not like a weekend movie - so, if you do it for just some fun or some occasional satisfaction, it remains just that. Instead of giving excuse after excuse, we should find a way that is suitable for us or at least accept and admit that, we are not really serious yet and so we won't make judgments.

Everyone has Krsha Prema - you also have and thats why you are so interested to be here in this forum. Cultivating that to a level where you cannot spend a moment with out His thought is the ultimate success and good luck for that.

Hare Krshna!