Time is the seed of the universe - meaning

[Seeker2011]

Namaskar,

It is said in the Mahabharata that Time is the seed of the Universe. Can someone explain what this means ?

Peace

[Believer]

Namaste,

I am not a scriptural authority by any stretch of the imagination. So, I will you give a common sense answer to the riddle.

Time defines the length of a yuga. The Universe is obliterated at the end of a yuga and is rebuilt for the new yuga. So, time is what brings about an end of one Universe at the end of a yuga and is also the seed which starts the next Universe; if that makes any sense to you.

Pranam.

[Seeker2011]

Namaskar,

Thanks for your reply. There are too many questions in my mind. How do the scriptures describe the nature of Time or Kaal ? What causes Time ? Who controls it ? I have read few scriptures and am confused. I have heard that some say Time or Kaal is Maya / Illusion. Please discuss further.

Om Shanti Shanti

[Believer]

Namaste,


How do the scriptures describe the nature of Time or Kaal?
Sorry, can't help you on that. I have no clue what the scriptures say about Time or Kaal.


What causes Time ? Who controls it ?
From a layman's point of view, when a yuga begins and the cosmic cycle once again starts with a brand new Universe, we use the rotation of the earth around the Sun (or the appearance of the moon through different phases) to keep track of the duration of our existence in the Universe. The entity which keeps track of this period is Time. So, the time is caused by the creator/sustainer - the creator pressing the reset button to zero out the initial reading at the start of the Universe for a particular yuga, and the sustainer giving us the ability to track it with the rotation of the earth around the Sun.


I have heard that some say Time or Kaal is Maya / Illusion.
Anyone can say what they want, but to me time is real. It measures the length of my existence in this bodily form in the Universe and the length of a yuga. What else can I say?

I am curious to know the reason for your fascination with this abstract concept. It has no added value towards your ascent on the spiritual ladder.

Pranam.

[smaranam]

Namaskar,

There are too many questions in my mind. How do the scriptures describe the nature of Time or Kaal ? What causes Time ? Who controls it ? I have read few scriptures and am confused. I have heard that some say Time or Kaal is Maya / Illusion. Please discuss further.

Om Shanti Shanti

Namaskar Seeker

Shri KRshNa says in the Bhagavad GItA -- kalosmi. Time I am. (BG 11.32)

BG 11.32
Shri BhagavAn uvAcha : KAlosmi lokakshayakrutpravruddho
lokAn samAhanturm-iha pravruttah: |
rute~api tvAm na bhavishyanti sarve
ye~a'vasthitAh: pratyanIkeshu yodhAh: ||

Shri BhagavAn, Lord KRshNa said, "I am the exponential, expanding Supreme Time into which all beings [that come into existence] dissolve. vanish. This is why, the warriors of the enemy will not remain even if you do not fight against them.
--
This is in the context of Mahabharat. On the other hand Shri KrshNa describes the real nature of Time that He is. What makes something that manifested to be unmanifest? Time. Kaal.


I wrote this on another thread :

Namaste ale

If Bramhan is the infinite ocean, the coming and going of the universe is the waves. KshaNabhangur - Momentary. The universe literally comes and goes. Its existence is not shAshvat - eternal. From the point of view of the infinite eternal timeless Absolute Truth, this wavy universe is so so transient - chanchal, shaky - asthir, hopelessly restless, that the Absolute wonders - what was that? did that even happen? excuse me? what was that again?? am I dreaming? :)

A good exercise would be to go to the beach and watch the waves at high tide.

It is like the shooting/falling star/comet/meteor - dhUmaketU. "Wait... what ... was ... that?"

om namo bhagavte vAsudevAya ~

This is to illustrate that from the POV* of the Absolute Truth, the anAdi (beginningless) ananta (endless) Sat-Chit-Ananda ParamAtmA, Adi-Purusha ,
there is no start and stop, coming and going, now and later, yesterday and tomorrow...
Moreover, what seems like eternity for us is like a fraction of a second for Him. He is everywhere all at once, He does not need to travel and does not need to Time-Travel.
The report or message that the light emited by a distant star or galaxy brings us today happened eons ago on that star or its Solar System and is obsolete and meaningless to them now when you received the message.
To the paramAtmA, this is meaningless. Future for us is simply a suspended happening for Him. Past Present Future is for us.

We are the once sitting in the train and watching the trees "run" as the train speeds thru' the countryside. We say "The trees are running" but this is not the reality. They are stationary.

The Absolute is Absolute. Still. The world is relative. The periodic rhythmic function of the Universe(s) (mostly owing to gravity) is relative. The rhythm is relative.
The Absolute can make anything "happen" anytime at Will. Time is relative.

Counting details of nested time-cycles is pointless from the absolute POV.

Further, He can say
"I did this next year"
"I am doing that yesterday" and it will not make any difference.


Ishvara parama KRshNah: sacchidAnanda vigraha
anAdir-Adir-Govindah: sarva-kAraNa-kAraNam

yasya prabhA prabhavato jagadanDa koTi
koTishvashesha vasudhA-Adi vibhUti bhinnam
tadbramha nishkalam anantamasheshabhUtam
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi | | Bramha-saMhItA 5.40 ||
KRshNa is the Supreme Ishvar (Lord). He is the embodiment (vigraha) of Truth, Existence, Knowledge-Wisdom, Bliss.
He is beginningless and endless, is a pleasure to behold, imparts happiness, master of the senses,
He is the cause of all causes

By Whose transcendental influence a zillion Universes come into existence
By Whose power a zillion earths (vasudhA) come into existence
Whose varied manifestations in this Universe are sparks and parts of Him
Who is purest, Bramhan, and untouched by material nature, infinite (endless), the One behind each being,
THAT First Being, Govinda I worship and serve

[smaranam]

agnir-mahI gaganam ambu marud dhishas-cha
kAlastathA~Atma manasIti jagad trayANi
yasmAd bhavanti vibhavanti vishanti yam cha
govindam Adi purusham tam aham bhajAmi || Bramha-saMhItA 5.51 ||

The One within Whom (by Whose mere thought) Fire, Earth, Sky, Space, Winds, Directions, Time and the three worlds come into existence (bhavanti) and become topics/objects, THAT Govinda I adore ~ * ~

[Seeker2011]

Namaskar Shri Smaranam,

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Om Shanti Shanti

[Amrut]

Namaste,

There can be no creation without time (kAla). Hence while creating, preserving and destroying the universe, paramAtmA divides itself into 4 parts. In each phase i.e. creation, preservation and destruction kAla is a common factor. kAla is not person. in gItA, as smaranam ji has said, bhagavAn says, 'I am kAla'

We can understand this from viShNu purANa. My thoughts have advaitic leanings. Translation is from Gita PRess Sanskrit-Hindi. All errors are mine.


VP 1.2.5-8: That which is the substratum of the whole universe, is subtle than the subtlest, is the puruSottama established in all beings and is indestructible, that paramArtha (highest truth) [in reality] is nirmala [1] GYAnasvarUpa [2], but due to ignorance, is recognized as vaious forms, and that [in the form of kAla (time)} is the creator, preserver and destroyer of the world, to that jagadiSvara (lord of the world), ajanmA (unborn), axaya (akshaya) (indestructible) and avayaya (unchanging), [who is ] bhagavAn viShNu, I bow and will tell you the whole event gradually (in order), that truth which was told by bhagavAn brahmA jI when he was requested by daxa (daksha), etc munI-s.

[1] nirmala - stainless, that which is not impure by mixing of guNa-s

[2] GYAna-svarUpa - that which is of the form of pure knowledge / consciousness. Here the word 'form' is not to be taken literally. sva-rUpa means 'one's own [real] form. GYAna-sva-rUpa means that whose form is GYAna i.e. that which is Self-effulgent and can be known by itself only.



Verses 10-13 describes viShNu, the paramAtmA as free from all guNa-s and six types of changes or modifications like birth, etc, is beyond names and forms, and for the one we can only say that 'it is' [or it exists] (in hindi - 'hai'). Due to being eternal (nitya), without any birth, undecaying, imperishable, the one and due to the absence of guNa-s[viShNu bhagavAn] is called as pure parabrahma.



VP 1.2.10-13: 'That which is para (higher) than the para [prakriti], parashreSTha (best of the best), paramAtmA abiding in AtmA {heart}, that in which form, colour, name and attributes are negated (absent) (vivarjIta); in which birth (conception), existence, growth, transformation (change, modification), decay (xaya, kshaya) and destruction - all these six changes are absent; which can only be said to 'exist' (i.e. is existence), and for which it is popularly said 'it is present everywhere' and in him the whole universe resides - hence wise call it [this tatva as] vAsudeva' that [same tatva] is eternal, unborn, undecaying (imperishable), unchanging, unchangeable (ekarasa) and is devoid of guNa-s like 'can be renounced' (heya) etc, due to these reason is called as 'nirmala parabrahma' [1]

[1] nirmala = pure, mala = impurity, nir-mala = in which there is no impurity, i.e. devoid of any impurity



paramAtmA is beyond guNa-s and attributes, it cannot be negated and is called as nirmala parabrahman (pure consciousness) and is free from the concept of time.




Verse 15 describes puruSa as the first from of parabrahma.


VP 1.2.15: O dvija ! (twice born), puruSa is the first form of paramAtmAn, unmanifested [prakruti] and manifested [mahada, etc] are his other forms. And since [this form] is adorned by all, kAla (time) is the topmost / best form (paramarUpa).

Four forms of paramAtmAn are




puruSa
avyakta (prakriti)
vyakta (mahada, etc)
kAla





[I]Verse 1.2.15 shows that puruSa itself is not the supreme para-brahman, but the first form or manifestation of viShNu. Here puruSa can be an omnipresent entity and not caturbhUja viShNu, a person.





Some more verses from viShNu purANa will make thing clear



We will take verses 1.22.26-27 into consideration. Earlier verse 2.22.23 says that janArdana, during creation, preservation and destruction divides itself into four parts. Later verses describe four parts assumed during creation, preservation and destruction of the world.



VP 1.22.23: [That] janArdana divides itself into four parts while creating and preserving the universe and by dividing itself in four forms destroys the world.



Now, the four parts are described w.r.t. guNa-s. First it starts with creation (rajas), then sattva (preservation) and lastly tamas guNa (destruction)



VP 1.22.24-25: With one part becomes unmanifested brahmA ji, with second part marici, etc prajApati, [lord's] third part is kAla and fourth is all beings.



VP 1.22.26-27 Then that puruShottama with support (getting in tune with) sattva guNa preserves the world. During that time, from first part [1], viShNu [deity of preservation] form preserves the world, with second part, assumes the form of manu, etc and from third assumes the form of kAla (time) and from forth is present in all bhUta-s (all bodies, i.e. is present everywhere).



Here the classification is different than earlier verses. This is because this classification is based on guNa-s




[1] The literal meaning is - from first part becomes viShNu and preserves the universe.



the word unmanifested brahmA ji indicates that brahmA ji was present even during first creation of universe and later on stayed in unmanifested form. This is also confirmed in kurma purANa.



VP 1.22.28-29: and in the end [when time for destruction of universe has come], that unborn bhagavAn taking AdhAra (support) of tamo guNa (tamas guna), with one part takes rudrarUpa, with second [part] agni (fire) and form of death, with third kAla and with fourth stays in all bodies and worlds (omnipresence)



|| Hari OM ||

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaskar,

It is said in the Mahabharata that Time is the seed of the Universe. Can someone explain what this means ?

Peace

Creation of something is possible only through time. Time is the cause of the universe & therefore it is said that time is the seed of this universe.

[devotee]

Namaste Seeker,



Thanks for your reply. There are too many questions in my mind. How do the scriptures describe the nature of Time or Kaal ? What causes Time ? Who controls it ? I have read few scriptures and am confused. I have heard that some say Time or Kaal is Maya / Illusion. Please discuss further.


What is time ? It is the gap between two events when there is any change (the gap is measurable if we can standardise the gap like Oscillation of a Pendulum or time taken to close or open one's eyes which was called Nimish in earlier times, or the time taken by Sun to travel since sunrise to sunset etc.). If there is no change then there won't be time. Nirguna Brahman is beyond time because there is no change in it. It was, is and will always remain as It Is. So, the concept of Time dissolves in Nirguna Brahman or the Fourth/Turiya (aspect of Brahman).

Time comes is associated with Creation when the Sole Reality i.e. Nirguna Brahman under the influence of MAyA creates an illusion of multitude and this universe. MAyA and Time cannot be separated as both are related with changes. In MAyic creation everything is changing all the time and therefore Time becomes a very important concept. Time is also Called Kaal and Kaal also means the Death or Destroyer. All the beings in this universe are bound by Kaal i.e. by the laws of changes e.g. Anyone who is born must die. All forms and names are food for Kaal i.e. they are consumed in their forms and names by the power of Kaal / Time. Time is also illusion or MAyA as MAyA cannot work without Time ... MAyA needs changes. MAyA cannot work without changes. Why illusion ? Because, in Reality there is no change in Brahman. Because the Only Reality is changeless Brahman and there is no time. All the changes that we perceive are only imagined in Brahman by the power of Brahman which is MAyA/Time/Kaal.

OM

[Seeker2011]

Namaskar,

Thanks to all who contributed to this post.

The gist I get quoting Shri Devotee is that "The Only Reality is changeless Brahman and there is no time".

However transitory beings like me who are not adepts yet experience an "apparently real and continuous" flow of time from a past to a future. I have read in an article that even this apparently continuous time flow is actually discrete. Instants of time (khand kaal) are like frames of a multidimensional movie which are being played from a "beginning" to an "end" in a predetermined pattern.

What do scriptures and advanced sadhaks have to say on this ?

Om Shanti Shanti

[smaranam]

However transitory beings like me who are not adepts yet experience an "apparently real and continuous" flow of time from a past to a future. I have read in an article that even this apparently continuous time flow is actually discrete. Instants of time (khand kaal) are like frames of a multidimensional movie which are being played from a "beginning" to an "end" in a predetermined pattern.

Namaste Seeker

Time is not linear, but consists of nested cycles and is spiral --
Since time is cyclic (and nested within that), there is BramhA's night of 1000 chaturyuga which is as long as BramhA's day, and then there is mahA-pralaya which is as long as the time of the kalpa manifestation. In each if these nested "nights" the beings are absorbed into MahA VishNu and stay dormant, only to resume where they left off at the dawn of the next "day" .
This is the break (khanDa) in kaal , kaala khanDa (discrete time intervals) experienced by beings (jIva). Why, every day you wake up, you experience a khanDa since the last night because of deep sleep.

1 nimeesha of BramhA (batting of eyelids) = 1 earth-year
1 day of BramhA = 1000 chaturyuga = 1 kalpa (this is followed by an equally long night called naimittika pralaya when creation dissolves, is at a standstill and beings get arsorbed into Mahat/VirAT-Purush (cosmic MahA-VishNu) and stay dormant -- kAla khanDa occurs.
1 year of BramhA = 100 BramhA-days
Life of a BramhA = 100 BramhA-years = 1 mahA-kalpa at the end of which Atyantika pralaya occurs. BramhA's life is divided into 2 parArdha ; 50 BramhA-years = 1 parArdha
Sahasra (thousand) mahA-kalpa make a nimeesh (moment) of VishNu (NArAyaNa, Bramhan').

Also, history repeats itself at different levels and dimensions of space hence dimensions of time.

*Plus, things are simultaneously happening in the macrocosm (BramhAnDa - universal level) and in the microcosm (pinDa - individual or embodied level). Think - fractals.

Scripture -- the best reference I can give is Shrimad BhAgavat mahA-purAN which explains yuga-cycles from truTi (moment) to mahA-kalpa -- see Canto 2,3 (sarga-visarga -- primary and secondary creation, and 5 (cycles, loka and cosmological details)).

In layman's terms, Consider earth going around the Sun and Jupiter or Saturn doing the same. Then consider a whole galaxy going around something bigger. The sapta-RushI (7 stars) going around Dhruva TArA -- the Pole Star. For beings or objects in each realm, a "day" a "month" or a "year" means drastically different things.


As far as the absolute versus relative is concerned, I hope the examples of riding a train while watching trees (something I just thought of while writing to you - so thank you), ocean - tide , meteors and comets -- were helpful.

Even if you say "I experience time" I would like to point out that devotees in eternal leelA with their IshTa are beyond space and time hence transcending mAyA in this respect, just as BhagavAn is beyond time,space,mAyA. This is because they are with the Lord. Interaction with your IshTa need not be within the schedule of day-night, before after, now later or a schedule although "leelena" , as leela you may want to experience "time and space" which is not the time and space here on earth -- but this is voluntary and/or driven by the Lord -- and you. You are here in this physical body and you think it is X o'clock in your time zone, but the real you is in some totally different place and time which is beyond space and time of this jaDa jagat i.e. material universe. Spiritual world is beyond the time-space of the material world.

[newwaysys]

It is a geometrical shape that is made up of multiple overlapping circles of the same size. There is a huge amount of information and knowledge that can be gained from understanding the Flower of Life. It is considered to be sacred geometry that contains ancient religious value and to sum it up it depicts the fundamental forms of space and time, but there is a lot more to know. Let this be an introduction to The Flower of Life.
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