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Mana
27 March 2015, 12:45 PM
Namaste,

Being a bit of a non linear learner, I like to try to understand things as they arise in questions posed by my circumstance; I find that I remember these points so much more easily than any other. Which is why I am posting this question now.

My jyotish studies have led to my researching the word svargā on searching this word I came also across the word svagā; for the usage it occurs to me that both are applicable, I see that in the devanagri the difference between the above the joining line and at the end of the word; Is there a grammatical rule that is simple to explain being applied here, are there perhaps some other examples of a similar application of the same?

स्वर्गा - svargā

स्वगा - svagā


Thank you kindly for your consideration.

devotee
27 March 2015, 11:55 PM
Namaste,

My jyotish studies have led to my researching the word svargā on searching this word I came also across the word svagā; for the usage it occurs to me that both are applicable, I see that in the devanagri the difference between the above the joining line and at the end of the word; Is there a grammatical rule that is simple to explain being applied here, are there perhaps some other examples of a similar application of the same?

स्वर्गा - svargā

स्वगा - svagā


The word is Swarga (pronounced at the end as 'a' and not 'aa'). Swarga means 'heaven'. I am not aware what "Swagaa" means. Can you tell us where and how did you stumble upon these words ?

OM

smaranam
27 March 2015, 11:57 PM
I was wondering of the same and quite surprised to read svargaaaa -- unless it is a joined work like svargAgaman == svarga + Agaman or svarga + gaman

Mana
28 March 2015, 02:50 AM
Namaste,

devotee, smaranam; yes you are quite right it is conjoined another word, please excuse my ignorance of the structure of Sanskrit. I see now that the ā is is present only when connected to another word; I was examining svargāṁśa in relation to the dasāṁśa definition; the D10. Wanting to use svargā (svarga) rather than the word heaven; preferring the Sanskrit over the English; Thus this search. Seeing now that I should have simply adjusted the ending. Yet, it is this trail that intrigues me so.
In English we can write "heaven" but also "haven" both would apply in relation to this context, though they are quite different words in our modern; perhaps somewhat limited, derivation of understanding.


svagā स्वगा

Definition: ind. a sacrificial exclamation (expressing desire for prosperity)

This clip is from the Monier-Williams Dictionary website (http://sanskritdictionary.com/?q=svag%C4%81&lang=sans&iencoding=iast&action=Search); is this perhaps slang?

There is use in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, perhaps in my ignorance of what looks to be a relative use though admittedly the sounds could be quite different; in the words sva-gātrāṇām or sva-gārhasthyam; Here we see the use of a hyphen and along with it another use of the word heaven in 3.33.15 (http://vedabase.net/sb/3/33/15/en) as a description household affairs and wealth, and 3.30.25 (http://vedabase.net/sb/3/30/25/en) the degradation of man.

Thank you for your assistance in understanding; I am embarrassed that my level of Sanskrit is still so low even whilst studying such great works as those of the great bṛhatparāśara; I ask that you please forgive me that.

It is to my regret that I cannot hear these words easily, preferring to learn the written/read long after hearing the words sung chanted or spoken; thus in full context.

devotee
29 March 2015, 04:02 AM
Namaste Mana,

I have not come across this word "Swagaa". For sacrifices, the words used as "Swaahaa" or "Swadhaa" etc. There may be two reasons : There are some words in every language which are very rarely used during interaction for one reason or the other and thus are known only when you look the word in Dictionary. Other reason may be that I have not heard the word because of my limited knowledge of Sanskrit.

Keeping your interest towards learning Sanskrit in mind, I can give you some tips with whatever knowledge I have. Sanskrit language is highly scientific in the sense that for anything there is a logic and rule and every form is related with how it will be pronounced.

For Phonetics, I will use :

a == for sound of "u" in "run"
aa == for sound of "a" in Gram or Calm
i == for sound of 'i" in "Rich"
ee == for sound of "ea" in "Teach"
u = for sound of "oo" in "book" or "look"
oo = for sound of "oo" in "loot" or "moot"
e == for sound of "e" in "men"
ai = for sound of "a" in "man"
o = for sound of "o" in "Tone"
Au = for sound of "O" in POT
ang = for sound of "oun" in Tounge
ah, : (visarga) = sound of "uh" in "huh"

a) In Sanskrit nouns/pronouns change their forms mainly because of Kaarak/(Case in English) or Sandhi. Kaaraks are of eight types. How the word will change in a particular Kaarak will be decided by : Gender (there are three genders in Sanskrit) of the word, how it sounds at the end etc. For such parameters there is a table which decides the form of the word in a particular case.

e.g. Gaj (the sound of "j" is pronounced quickly with any time given on sound "a" after 'j" and that is why I have not used a after "j" in the example) == This means "elephant". Now, "Gaj" is masculine gender with sound "a" at the end and therefore its form will change as given below :

"Gajah", Gajau", Gajaah" when it used as "Kartaa" (nominative case). The first word is for Singular number, second is for Two numbers and the third is for Plural number. You will have to memorise the whole table of this word for all the cases. All the words which have similar characteristics like "Baalak" (child) will follow the same pattern.

Similarly, if a word is Feminine or Neuter gender with a particular sound at the end it will follow a particular table. There are not many tables. If you can remember even 8-10 such tables, you will become very comfortable in such forms and their usage for almost all words.

b) Sandhi

When two words are joined together, at the point of their juncture, the sound changes as per prescribed rule. The common rules are :

(On the left and right, the letters/combination of letters denote sounds as we have decided in the beginning of the post)

a + a = aa
aa + a = aa
aa + aa = aa
a + e = e
e + e = ai
e + ai = ai
ai + ai = ai
i + i = ee
i + ee = ee
ee + ee = ee
u + u = oo
oo + oo = oo
o + o = au
au + o = au

"ah" i.e. ";" (visarga) changes to "r" while combining with other words. Guruh + Brahmaa == Gururbrahmaa

Some consonants (the first character of a certain kakhara (like ka, kha, ga, gha, anga) , change their sound to third form of Devanagri alphabet in certain sandhi rule :

"ka" may change to "ga" like in Vaagpatutaa (Vaak + Patutaa) , "ta" to "da" (Tat +Vishno = tadvishno) etc.

There are some exceptions to the rules also and there are some other rules too. But to start with, I think the above is ok.

******************

You have to identify the root words properly and look for changes due to kaarak and sandhi before you can decide upon the meaning of the words. In your case :

Word : Swargaarohan == Swarga (Heaven) + aarohan (going upwards)

sva-gātrāṇām ==> This word is used using "sva" meaning "self/own" and Gaatra meaning "body". Gaatraanaam is plural form of Gaatra.
Sva-gaarhasthyam ===> This word is made up of words "sva" meaning "self/own" and modified form of "Grihastha" meaning "householder" (Gaarhasthyam means "house-holdership")

Similarly Dasam (ten) + ansha (part) = Dasamaansha (tenth part). This has used a + a = aa.

See this word from Svetaashvatar (== Svet (white) +Ashvatar (Mule)) Upanishad :

Tasyaabhidhyaanaattriteeyam = Tasya (its) + abhidhyaanaat (by meditating upon) (Abhidhyaanaat is again modified form of Dhyaanaat by using "abhi" as upsarga with the word) + Triteeyam (third)

Svagunairnigoodhaam = Sva (self/own) + Gunaih (mark the visarga sound) (means gunas) + nigoodhdhaam (veiled)

Here visarga in gunaih has changed its form and has become "r" in "gunair"

Dhaaryetaapramattah = Dhaaryet + Apramattah (a + a == aa)

Vaayuryatraadhirudhyate = Vaayuh (air) + yatra (where) + adhirudhyate (doesn't blow)

Sarpirivaarpitam = Sarpih (butter) + iva (just like) + arpitam (lying)

tasyaabhidhyaanaadyojanaattattvabhaavaat = Tasya (its) + abhidhyaanaat (by meditating upon) + yojanaat (by this contact/union) + tattva (essence/reality) + bhaavaat (by realising)

OM

Mana
29 March 2015, 07:43 AM
Namaste devotee,

Thank you so very much for you considerate response; you have helped me greatly in my understanding; Exactly that which I was looking for.
Much to learn; though I think this is a very good place start.

Thank you kindly,

OM

Mana
29 March 2015, 08:08 AM
Namaste,

Quick to return, if I might ask you kind folk another question; is the 'r' depicted in devanāgarī script as the hook above the top bar; I apologise if either the bar or hook have a formal name; I am as yet unfamiliar with them.

Kind regards.

devotee
29 March 2015, 08:26 AM
Namaste Mana,



Quick to return, if I might ask you kind folk another question; is the 'r' depicted in devanāgarī script as the hook above the top bar; I apologise if either the bar or hook have a formal name; I am as yet unfamiliar with them.


The bar is called "shirorekha" (meaning "bar on the top"), so your description is quite OK. :)

See writing ways of R below :

The first word in the table is RAM or Raam. The second one is not written correctly, so leave that. The third is above head-bar and is called "ref" ... the "ref" has been used over "ma" so it will be pronounced before pronouncing "ma". So, the word will be pronounced as "Dharma". "r" is also used in conjuction with other letters as slant line joined below the letter as you see in the next word, "Prem". In "Ta" instead of one slant line there are two but the pronunciation is same for the word as "train".

**************

I am sorry. The forum didn't allow the table to pasted it was. You can view words Dharm, Prem, Train, Shrishti, Shreya written in Devanagri. This will give you good idea of different ways this letter is used in conjunction with other letters.

You may like to visit this www.bodhgayanews.net/hindi/HIN11_Script_Intro.pdf

OM

Mana
30 March 2015, 02:51 AM
Namaste devotee,

It certainly is a beautiful script, Interesting to read of candrabindu; Just yesterday I have learned that the correct spelling of chandra is actually candra. Although tables are wonderfully helpful once a system is understood, I find them very difficult to learn from; perhaps because I have not been taught how to study them correctly. Often, trying to seek the algorithm from which a table is constructed; so as to assist me is seeing them more easily in my minds eye; it is a highly mercurial habit of mine for better or for worse; Perhaps the reason that has initiated my original question.

Thank you for your concise response I shall give them much thought, then print out the pdf and see If I can absorb some of the undoubted wisdom there within though I find learning with out speaking or hearing to be quite a difficult affair.

I am fascinated to learn more of the transformation from verbal to written tradition in Sanskrit; has this perhaps been studied by any learned Indian scholars? I believe that there is a long tradition of writing also but perhaps the support was so fragile as to not have lasted over the years; Is there any truth in my assumption; For an example was Pāṇini work written down or communicated verbally?

Please forgive my many questions; I am trying to learn how to learn and have always been very inquisitive when I would perhaps be better enable, were I to memorise the tables; is this done with rhyme or chant In schools in India ... ?

Kind regards and thanks again for your help and advice.

Mana
30 March 2015, 04:23 AM
Namaste,

Just a thought and a question if I may: In reading the word "Gururbrahmaa" I hear in my head the chant of my Jyotisha Guru reciting the 2nd stanza of the Guru Vandanā quite clearly; how delightful.

A question if I may devotee ji: You have translated above Tasya as (its); This morning whilst reading the srimad bhagavatam I have come across the word tasyām (http://www.vedabase.net/sb/3/1/22/en) from which I have thought of your post here in the SB it is translated as "on the bank of the River Sarasvatī."

Is this due perhaps to a difference in the essential understanding of the state of being, what it means to be; between the different languages? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and clarification.

Kind regards.

devotee
30 March 2015, 05:27 AM
Namaste Mana,


Namaste devotee,

It certainly is a beautiful script, Interesting to read of candrabindu; Just yesterday I have learned that the correct spelling of chandra is actually candra. Although tables are wonderfully helpful once a system is understood, I find them very difficult to learn from; perhaps because I have not been taught how to study them correctly. Often, trying to seek the algorithm from which a table is constructed; so as to assist me is seeing them more easily in my minds eye; it is a highly mercurial habit of mine for better or for worse; Perhaps the reason that has initiated my original question.

Thank you for your concise response I shall give them much thought, then print out the pdf and see If I can absorb some of the undoubted wisdom there within though I find learning with out speaking or hearing to be quite a difficult affair.

I am fascinated to learn more of the transformation from verbal to written tradition in Sanskrit; has this perhaps been studied by any learned Indian scholars? I believe that there is a long tradition of writing also but perhaps the support was so fragile as to not have lasted over the years; Is there any truth in my assumption; For an example was Pāṇini work written down or communicated verbally?

By seeing your interest in sanskrit, I would advise you to join Online Sanskrit Course. Chinmaya Mission offers course of 15-30 months for teaching Sanskrit Online. They have provision to play audio while teaching so that you know the correct pronunciation of characters/words. If you are interested you may try this website :

http://easysanskrit.chinfo.org/cif


Please forgive my many questions; I am trying to learn how to learn and have always been very inquisitive when I would perhaps be better enable, were I to memorise the tables; is this done with rhyme or chant In schools in India ... ?


The tables are memorised by chanting like children do for memorising number tables. This won't need much effort. It is not as difficult as it appears in the beginning. Even if you memorise 2-3 tables to begin with, it will give you a lot of confidence.

OM

devotee
30 March 2015, 05:47 AM
Namaste Mana,



You have translated above Tasya as (its); This morning whilst reading the srimad bhagavatam I have come across the word tasyām (http://www.vedabase.net/sb/3/1/22/en) from which I have thought of your post here in the SB it is translated as "on the bank of the River Sarasvatī."

Is this due perhaps to a difference in the essential understanding of the state of being, what it means to be; between the different languages? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and clarification.

"Tasya" is form of "He" or "It" with 6th vibhakti of Kaarak. Please see the table of "Sah" (meaning "He") below :

Sah (m)Masculine Singular Dual Plural

Nominative (1st) saḥ tau te
VocativeAccusative (2nd) tam tau tān
Instrumental (3rd) tena tābhyām taiḥ
Dative (4th) tasmai tābhyām tebhyaḥ
Ablative (5th) tasmāt tābhyām tebhyaḥ
Genitive (6th) tasya tayoḥ teṣām
Locative (7th) tasmin tayoḥ teṣu

For It only the Nominative and Vocative Accusative cases are changed. Others remain the same :

Tat (meaning "It", Neutar Gender) Masculine Singular Dual Plural

Nominative (1st) Tat te tāni
Vocative Accusative (2nd) Tat te tāni

From 3rd to 7th vibhaktis would remain the same as for Sah meaning "He".

*****************
TasyAm doesn't mean "On the Bank of the River Sarasvati". TasyAm is locative form of Saa i.e. "She". "Tasya" is Sixth vibhakti for Sah (He, Masculine) .... for Feminine Gender i.e. Saa (She, feminine) has seventh (locative) form as TasyAm which means "In Her/ On her etc.". So, what you are reading is not an exact translation but commentary of the verse where the writer has added words/phrases/his own opinion to make the meaning of the verses easier for the reader. You may have to read Word-by-word translation to understand how the translation has been done.

OM

devotee
30 March 2015, 06:31 AM
Noun Declension Chart for सा (Saa)

Case Singular Dual Plural
1. Nominative (subject) सा (Saa)ते (Te) ताः (Taah)
2. Accusative (object) ताम् (Taam) ते (Te) ताः (Taah)
3. Instrumental (by) तया (Tayaa) ताभ्याम् (Taabhyaam) ताभिः (Taabhih)
4. Dative (to) तस्यै (Tasyai) ताभ्याम् (Taabhyaam) ताभ्यः (Taabhyah)
5. Ablative (from) तस्याः (Tasyaah) ताभ्याम् (Taabhyaam) ताभ्यः (Taabhyah)
6. Genitive (of) तस्याः (Tasyaah) तयोः (Tayoh) तासाम् (Taasaam)
7. Locative (in) तस्याम् (Tasyaam) तयोः (Tayoh) तासु (Taasu)

deafAncient
31 March 2015, 12:00 AM
Namaste to all,

One thing I have not been able to get an answer on is how to pronounce letters like ṛ, ṝ, and r in Saṃskṛtam. That would be ऋ, ॠ, and र, respectively. Please remember that I am deaf and looking at this from the perspective of an American speaker.

Dhanyavād

Mana
31 March 2015, 01:47 AM
Namaste devotee,

Thank you so much, I certainly have an idea forming now as to how the syntax is working; this website looks great and though the site is wonderful, in truth I seem to find it difficult to learn this way; Perhaps I am just not ready quite yet for the details.

I have a digital copy of the śloka of the bṛhatpārāśarahorāśāstram and I am trying to order them with a book translation that I have, as there are a few differences; in so doing I see now that I am able to understand more and more words; Perhaps now it is time to really study the details though the time aspect of web courses seem to stop me studying and make me want to copy every thing; perhaps I have a innate fear due to my complete failure to emerge from an occidental education with any thing at all. The bṛhatpārāśarahorāśāstram just makes sense to me and the Sanskrit language with that also; it is in combining the two that I am able to learn best, perhaps when I am a little more advanced in My Jyotiṣa study I will take the Chinmaya Mission course.

Thanks again for your help; I shall research these tables for now for reference whilst I work; they will I think be a very good start.

Kind Regards.

Mana
31 March 2015, 01:57 AM
Namaste deafAncient,

Perhaps you could consider taking up a musical instrument? This young lady taught the pundits a thing or two.

http://www.ted.com/talks/evelyn_glennie_shows_how_to_listen

Americans tend towards an association between music and alcohol; Perhaps this will eventually slur the nations speech ...
Nice to meet you deafAncient.

Mana
31 March 2015, 02:33 AM
Dear devotee,

Reading through the pdf that you have recommended to me it would seem that I can now hear the vowels pronounced in my mind, so there must have been some subconscious development, a motivating realisation; I am thoroughly mercurial and as such need to learn accordingly many courses and such are more very much more jupitarian, which tends not to work for me unless a teacher or a class are present.

Singing with others would be the best way for me to learn as I struggle with visual input, whilst hearing very well, unfortunately most think that they are too grown up for this ...
Oh dear the woes of being mercurial.

I shall persist with this pdf for now it seems to be taking me in just the right direction.

Mana
31 March 2015, 03:05 AM
Namaste,

In the Hindi script "namaskār" is written as follows:

Oh dear I can't copy and paste from an "Adobe" document; that is essentially why I now run Linux and not windows, to believe that you own a script is beyond ridiculous; Please excuse my rant.

I notice that the candrabindu is very different in modern script, where as in classical Sanskrit is not present; is there any distinct reason for this upachaya I wonder, or just the passage if time?

नमस्कार्
namaskār

devotee
31 March 2015, 05:14 AM
In the Hindi script "namaskār" is written as follows:

I notice that the candrabindu is very different in modern script, where as in classical sanscrit is not present; is there any distinct reason for this upachaya?

नमस्कार्
namaskār

Chandrabindu (written with upwards half circle with a dot inside) has a stressed nasal sound as in बाँटना (http://dict.hinkhoj.com/words/meaning-of-%E0%A4%AC%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%81%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A3%20%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%97%20%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE-in-english.html) . Yes, in Old Sanskrit I have not found much use of this sound. They instead use Anuswaar i.e. just a bindu above the consonant which is also nasal sound but is not that stressed.

Actually all the characters, MAtrAs and symbols are related with sound. If you need that particular sound, you use the symbol. In Hindi Namaskaar is used with full "r" + 'a' and not with halanth as you have shown. It should be नमस्कार .

OM

deafAncient
31 March 2015, 09:11 AM
Namaste Mana,

I have no idea why you talked about learning to play a musical instrument. Either someone knows how to pronounce the letters as requested or not. Maybe you didn't read this elsewhere before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaud1Zve-SY
www.deafdrummer.org

This does not help with pronunciation of these letters. I have been trying to resolve this lack of knowledge for several years to no avail. In fact, as I'm about to leave the area for a different part of Texas tomorrow to work a different faire, I'm going to seek out a college with a Saṃskṛtam course or department to see if they can clear that up for me.

Mana
31 March 2015, 03:32 PM
Namaste deafAncient,

Please forgive me; I was being a little facetious, I certainly meant no offence.
I mention musical instruments, because learning to listen is a major part of
being aware whist playing. Thus in perceiving vibration by whatever means; I
think we can help greatly our pronunciation this way; that is why I mentioned
playing an instrument.

Evelyn Glennie has no audible speech pattern that would readily give away Her
deafness; I would speculate that She is as acutely aware of her pronunciation
as she is Her playing.

Aided by Her musical prowess.

Love the didgeridoo!

Kind regards.

Mana
31 March 2015, 04:01 PM
Namaste devotee,

I can see that I have a great deal to learn; I have taken to using a new text
editor for all of my computer musings, thus the different page formatting; as
such I have a programmable function that helps with the diacritics, but is is
so clumsy on an Occidental keyboard; it must be infuriating for native Hindi
speakers, how do you manage with the Devanagari in the digital realm? Do you
use Itrans for entering text I see that you have in the Noun Declension Chart
for सा (Saa).

I am looking forwards to learning more; in English my spelling is terrible, but
if Sanskrit is so much more that phonetic I might not then have such difficulty
spelling correctly; I suppose that time and a little toil will tell ...

Kind regards.

devotee
31 March 2015, 11:47 PM
Namaste Mana,


I am looking forwards to learning more; in English my spelling is terrible, but
if Sanskrit is so much more that phonetic I might not then have such difficulty
spelling correctly; I suppose that time and a little toil will tell ...




Learning any new language and script is never easy and therefore you have to give some time to yourself. In India, children face a lot of pressure for learning English and I remember the difficulty I have gone through and can feel the difficulty for you in learning Sanskrit/Hindi when it is not your native language.

Yes, spelling in Sanskrit / Hindi is not much of an issue if you know how to pronounce the word correctly. However, on one hand it helps you in spelling but on the other hand, you have to deal with a number of characters and symbols in Sanskrit/Hindi unlike in English where you have to learn only 26 characters for all sounds.

OM

Mana
02 April 2015, 02:43 AM
Namaste devotee,

Thank you for your thoughts and encouragement; I am certainly never going to be
bored with such a task ahead; So much wisdom is found within the wonderful
texts that are your cultural heritage, that it seems to me to be a very worthy
pass time indeed; I will take the internet course when I feel ready.
There is certainly no rush with the blessings of so many futures in which to absorb
this wonderful knowledge; to remember it.
It is I think, "On the tip of my tong" as we say in English when something is just
underneath the conscious memory.

Kind regards.

deafAncient
02 April 2015, 12:15 PM
Namaste Mana.

It's not that I can't learn how to make the sounds, but that the teachers online do not know how to teach. They do not have the training of speech therapists or one knowledgeable in voice and diction.

Mana
03 April 2015, 09:42 AM
Namaste deafAncient,

I think that good teachers are very hard to find no matter the condition of our
physical hearing; naturally then the same is true for good teachers, they
find it very hard to find eligible students; Rather a Paradoxical situation.

Have you been deaf all of your life or is this something that has occurred at a
later stage; I ask so that I might be better able to communicate your
experiences and memory's of sound?

Kind regards.

deafAncient
03 April 2015, 11:34 AM
Namaste Mana,

I've been deaf all my life, but it doesn't matter because I have great use of residual hearing and speak most of the time. Just assume that I am hearing.

Mana
04 April 2015, 04:26 AM
Namaste dA,

That is interesting, I can't help but wonder just how that effects the way that
you think. To return to the subject of r with a dot; To my ears it is breathed
into the letter as it is said, giving a very slight roll to the r but not
fully, think of a oscillation forming in the tong that only lasts for two or three
hits of the pallet.
My teacher is from oṛiśā and the East Indian Puri school of Brahmin, how
this differs across India I have no idea.

I am happy to learn that the small r is for joining together sentences; perfect
logic to this linguistic structure; it really is quite wonderful.

Kind Regards.