Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

[kallol]

Om

Namaste


Questions, questions and questions !!! This mind is never satisfied.

What drives the entity called Mind ? Of course Consciousness. So consciousness is the fuel for mind. What is its output ?

Again Mind is the entity which is the mover and also the origin of energy. These three layers of Consciousness, Subtle matter, Gross matter manifest and un-manifest into each other. In scientific term it converts and un-converts. In both direction it requires vehicle or means to convert.

Should I assume that Mind (made out of subtle matter) is the converter of Consciousness to Energy ? It seems more likely to me. If not what are the means by which each layer manifests and un-manifests into each other ?

If that is so what is the means by which Energy converts to Consciousness ?

:hug:

[Mana]

Namaste kallol,

What a wonderful thought to have and question to pose.

To my mind this is the essence of vāyu tattva and of its concordant sound, in vibration this oscillation is the signal of our thought; carried upon the material of mind stuff as budhi, which is often mistaken for mind, and we might hope to eventually find the essence of this, as we remove all of the tattva them selves that are vibrating, we are left with just the signal om.

mana is the heart and this is also essential in understanding mind as manas, the rhythm of which is intimately related to our chandas, to our thought which is imbibed, we hope, with dhī.

aum, uma, mau ...

To my mind, mind is thus a product of the friction between consciousness and matter; the energy is all three. Perhaps though, it is the friction that brings the two others together, time is not manifest at this level.

Just some thoughts for your consideration; these are of my favourite topics; thank you for directing my thought this way, kind regards.

Don't take my word for any of the above; food for your thought is all that is intended.


Kind regards.

[devotee]

Namaste,



What drives the entity called Mind ? Of course Consciousness. So consciousness if the fuel for mind. What is its output ?

If you allow me, I would like to rephrase the above understanding. Consciousness is not fuel for mind ... but is the substratum of mind ... its very essence. May be I am saying the same thing in different words.


Again Mind is the entity which is the mover and also the origin of energy. These three layers of Consciousness, Subtle matter, Gross matter manifests and un-manifests into each other. In scientific term it is converts and un-converts. In both direction it requires vehicle or means to convert.

Should I assume that Mind (made out of subtle matter) is the converter of Consciousness to Energy ? It seems more likely to me. If not what are the means by which each layer manifests and un-manifests into each other ?

I would say that you are perfectly right (except that the conversion is only apparent). However, mind works at two levels : Cosmic level and individual level. The mind at individual level is essentially non-different from the Cosmic mind but due to being "covered" in many layers of past impressions, tendencies and wrong identification, is more limited to act as Cosmic mind can. The Cosmic mind creates Energy/objects etc. from "Consciousness" which can be perceived by individual minds in similar fashion i.e. what one individual mind perceives is also perceived by another individual mind.


If that is so what is the means by which Energy converts to Consciousness ?


Nothing is converted to any other thing in reality otherwise the One alone Reality would not remain the Reality. All changes are relative to our individual minds alone. If you take out minds from the changing process ... there is actually no change taking place anywhere. As long as Cosmic Mind and individual minds are there, the changes are there.

So, how to revert the process back ... by removing the reason behind the process i.e. the mind. The mind needs to be killed to see the reality. How can the mind be killed ? By killing the thought-waves within us. These thought-waves are responsible for the illusion of the entity we call mind. That is why Patanjali says, "Yogaschittavrittinirodhah" i.e. Controlling the mind-waves is Yoga i.e. union (with reality/Self). Here, the instruments prescribed are : Yama, Niyama, Aasan, PrANAyAm, PratyAhAr, DhArna, DhyAna, SamAdhi.

OM

[Mana]

Namaste Devotee Ji, Kallol Ji,

I lovely concordance this morning as I am currently reading the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam; this morning I read canto 3.6 on the status quo; I thouht straight away of this thread as I read Śloka 3.6.7 ...




sa vai viśva-sṛjāḿ garbho deva-karmātma-śaktimān

vibabhājātmanātmānam ekadhā daśadhā tridhā

The total energy of the mahat-tattva, in the form of the gigantic virāṭ-rūpa, divided Himself by Himself into the consciousness of the living entities, the life of activity, and self-identification, which are subdivided into one, ten and three respectively.



There is a wonderful synchronisity that can occur, whilst reading such divine works as the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam.

http://www.vedabase.net/sb/3/6/en

Kind regards.

[kallol]

Om

Namaste.

Excellent replies. Let us not leave it here. Let us further the discussion.

In great men's words we are bundle of conciousness. Everything is consciousness. That way it negates the duality. I am not going into that.

(As in gross world everything is out of energy, but again run by energy and will go back to energy. So all are bundles of energy)

Again the same consciousness manifests and un-manifests into subtle bodies and gross bodies. What triggers this manifestation and what enables this manifestation ?

As you have pointed out - the mind bereft of the desires, ego, memory, buddhi, etc, i.e. where there are no waves, is the state of consciousness.

Now even with little bit of attributes, the waves are there. These waves, which are output of mind because of the residual attributes, are the waves / dances of the energy. As I mentioned and had lengthy discussions in another thread, minds are the cumulations of the lower minds. From cells to the Cosmic mind, it connects and contributes towards the next higher layer minds. Each mind has attributes in some proportion of active and potential conditions. Active component condition will lead to the waves which act on and towards the next manifestation. This is where next manifestation layer (gross body) is born and also acted through. Consciousness manifests through mind and mind manifests through body.

Now if mind is not there, "I" is not there, and the vehicle to further knowledge is lost. That is why, we can utmost move our knowledge level to the edge of the mind -> consciousness, but not beyond mind. Thus consciousness always remain elusive to be known.

Of course convert is not the right word as nothing is getting converted however my intention was to see the role of mind as a bridge between consciousness and gross body.

What role does it play in manifestation of consciousness into gross body and subsequent un-manifestation ?

:hug::hug:

[Mana]

...
As you have pointed out - the mind bereft of the desires, ego, memory, buddhi, etc, i.e. where there are no waves, is the state of consciousness.


If I might beg to differ, but only very slightly; the mind never stills totally but becomes aware of waves produced externally, not internally; and there is a big difference. Ripples upon the same pool of consciousness, in the cosmic part of mind. Rather like the drowning man, who in realising that if he stops flapping, he can float, from which point it is really very easy to swim.



What role does it play in manifestation of consciousness into gross body and subsequent un-manifestation ?


What is the meaning of life?

It is 42 ... :damnpc:

Or, self propagation through the realisation of that.

However, being that that is the only thing that stops self consummation ,other than great disaster. Perhaps we are not so very good at this today; we might then take a long hard look at bhūloka's ecology, the balance of mothers nature; so as to better understand the way that mother breathes, and thus manifestation ...

A bridge analogy is a fine analogy that you make; we might also consider the bridge to be a part of a larger mechanism; perhaps just one spoke of a wheel.

Kind regards.

[kallol]

Om

Namaste


If I might beg to differ, but only very slightly; the mind never stills totally but becomes aware of waves produced externally, not internally; and there is a big difference. Ripples upon the same pool of consciousness, in the cosmic part of mind. Rather like the drowning man, who in realising that if he stops flapping, he can float, from which point it is really very easy to swim.

You are right Mind never stills and thus the cycle of birth and death at all levels. However mind, as I understand is almost synonymous with the fluctuations. Consciousness being attributeless cannot have ripples. Only from onwards mind state (subtle body level) it can have ripples. "I" being the representative of consciousness is the witness to these fluctuations of mind. "I" is permanently stationary, so it can observe any variation in mind.



What is the meaning of life?

It is 42 ... :damnpc:.

May be I have put it in wrong way. What role does mind play in manifestation and unmanifestion between consciousness and gross body ? I gave an analogy of converter - may be only to depict the essence.

[Mana]

May be I have put it in wrong way. What role does mind play in manifestation and unmanifestion between consciousness and gross body ? I gave an analogy of converter - may be only to depict the essence.

Oh I don't think so, that was a bit of a geeks joke refering to 42, you might not understand if you are from India; as it was reference to an English book which approaches the similar question in a very different way; in a comic fashion.

In response to your rephrasing and after having just recovered some of my jyotiṣa course notes; I have studied this subject like so: manas can be compared to a minister who serves the king, the king which is the soul. He interacts with the world through the senses and relays back that information, should he see fit to the king filtering out all that is unnecessary.

Now the thing is:

Should this minister who is mind, filtering all of the sense information for the souls consumption; Should he begin to feel that it is he who is king; then delusions abound.

Mind is like a minister to our soul; problems arise if the minister becomes corrupted.

Kind regards.

[kallol]

Mind just like Ministers are always corrupt - may be to varying degree :D:Roll:

[Mana]

Exactly; this is why we have such a hard job seeing reality.

Tell me how it look out side the king requests ...
What is going on in the real world, what do people think, what do you think is best for the future ...

Ah, you see sir, the thing is it is like this ... Wave after wave of rubbish that we tell ourselves, to reaffirm our own illusions.

Kind regards.

[kallol]

Back to my basic question.

Do the subtle body and gross body remain constant quantum wise (???) ? If the cosmic mind remains totally calm (ideally), energy remains as energy (and not get transformed to atoms / molecules), but still subtle body remains and gross body remains as they are.

Or is it that as that point all get merged into the substratum - consciousness ? Without the mind in action, the space and time are gone.

[devotee]

Namaste,

If all disturbances in Consciousness (which create Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain. Here all the phenomena die out. There is no time and there is no space and there is no scope for duality and so there is neither the Cosmic Mind nor the individual minds. This is the state called as, "Prapanchosamah" in MAndukya Upanishad and that is the fourth i.e. Turiya.

OM

[Mana]

Namaste devotee ji,

Thank you for this insight; a cue for me to revisit this wonderful upaniṣad with a new perspective. I can not help but wonder; how can this state exist. Without an observer such as śiva, how can it be known that the field of ākāśa is not still vibrating, ever so very slowly, thus still making a sound?

The subject of probability in math, explains this requirement very nicely when we attempt to make a random generator.

Is not OM all pervading; before and after all existing even without the manifestation of kāla, which is quiet arguably within the mind of the beholder thus manifesting long after sound ...

Kind regards.

[devotee]

Namaste Mana,



I can not help but wonder; how can this state exist. Without an observer such as śiva, how can it be known that the field of ākāśa is not still vibrating, ever so very slowly, thus still making a sound?

Actually, the pure consciousness alone exits and it is always present as the witness. Gaudapad says that nature of the Cognizer as witness is never lost. But the vibration is not a physical vibration ... it is arising of thought-waves in Consciousness and that creates all the Prapancha of the three states (Waking state, Dreaming state and Deep Sleep state). ... and how will it be known ?? Its answer can be known exactly only after Aparoksha Anubhooti i.e. Direct Perception of the Reality. By reasoning, discussing, by reading books etc. it cannot be known because it is not some knowledge which has to be gained by someone else. The knower and Knowledge are not different from each other in this state and that is why it has been said to be self-destructing knowledge.


The subject of probability in math, explains this requirement very nicely when we attempt to make a random generator.

Can you explain this further ?


Is not OM all pervading; before and after all existing even without the manifestation of kāla, which is quiet arguably within the mind of the beholder thus manifesting long after sound ...


Yes and OM is also what is in-between the states of manifestation and becoming unmanifest. OM is the ONLY Reality. This alone manifests as the three states and it is the fourth which alone is the reality. This is what MAndukya and other Upanishads say.

OM

[Mana]

Namaste devotee Ji,

How fascinating to hear of Gaudapad in such a conversation, such a beautiful tradition and heritage that is quite simply a delight to discover; Just reading now on the subject of Catuṣkoṭi, it is quite fascinating.

How to best explain the thought of probability in relation to vibration or lack there of. The notion relates inherently to scale. If a vibration is either small enough or large enough either way it will appear to no longer exist; By its being present but not visible, at the current perspective and at the current scale. How this relates to probability is simple, though difficult to explain; I shall do my best.

The first thing to mention is our inability to model random events, a little know fact; in 'reality' the only events that are randomly generated, that do not require an observer, are generated by radiation be that either light heat or radioactivity.

Any other means known to man of generating a random event, inevitably involve both gravity and an observer; such as rolling die or tossing a coin.

Should we attempt to program a computer to create a random event; this seemingly simple task is quickly found to be totally impossible. Now you might well at this time be asking what has this got to do with OM and with whether or not the field is manifesting another axis or dimension by way of its its oscillation, creating both knowledge and of the observer. When a computer is programmed to imitate a random behaviour, the output; when visualised next to the plot of a genuinely random event, is very close to the reality. However, if the genuine random event that is being recorded, is pursued for long enough; it will always eventually generate a string of events so very highly improbable; that they will render the relationship correlation between our computer generation of randomness and its real counterpart irrational. So very wrong that its results will be totally erroneous for quite some time to come. Unless another depth of resolution is added the model; requiring an ever more hungry computer ever more power and ever more time; Thus the modeling of random nature no longer fits the reality observed in any way shape or form. The computer is in a mathematical sense, skipping a beat and losing touch with reality. Of course on a Universal scale this would not be happening within the realms of time, not as we perceive it, and I am metaphorically speaking here, so that perhaps we might as simple humans possibly begin to imagine what may have been happening before the big bang. By Big bang of course, I am stating here in terms for occidentals readers amongst us, as the subject is relevant to the current discussion, we occidentals seem rather sadly, to be somewhat obsessed with guns and explosions thus we see them every where; there is of course no audible sound at this stage in creation and certainly not at the time scale of humans, perhaps there is sound in this happening but upon or within the time scale of the gods; as vāyu tattva vibrates upon the field of ākāśa. I am referring perhaps to the nature of time before the last stretch of events that were so improbable, that they may have led to the 'apparent' sleeping of OM.

A possible conclusion of which, might be; that the apparently randomly emitted (dubious to suspect this to be random in light of jyoti) yet predictable background radiation of the universe, this could just as well be the residual sound of the last occurrence of a highly improbable event. Or more simply put, using the scaling effect inherent within the modeling of probability, to imitate the idea of knower and knowledge. Connecting thus the inherent issues in our own inability to creates any random events whilst not recognising that we can not, and to suggest that the inherently random nature of light emission and radiation be thus also be entwined with relativity. Thus our perception of both the start of the universe, in the manifestation of the elements, and the creation of our perception of time and of God.

All of which as stated by Gaudapad are pervaded by OM; present throughout every stage of creation including beforehand and no matter how improbable; The improbable here being, the very essence. Our inability to recognise that we can not create any random events, being caused by our own detachment from OM.

Thank you for enquiring devotee ji, I think it has done me some good to express this, to get it of of my chest as we say in England. I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on the matter of probable cause in relation to OM.


Kind regards.

[devotee]

Namaste Mana,

I can only appreciate your post which seems difficult for me to understand ! Your knowledge of probability and mathematics match that of a scientist and I am far behind your level of understanding !!

I can say only these things from my knowledge of scriptures :

Creation was not a probabilistic random event. There was never a time when Brahman and its MAyA didn't exist. Yes, manifestation and un-manifestation of the universe is a continuous unending cycle. I would like to equate it with primal cause of the universe with some Grand Black Hole (which consumes even all other black holes and finally remains the Only Black Hole) when everything becomes unmanifest including time. However, the same Black Hole (we are still unaware if this happens) can keep the signatures of everything that has merged into it (I read about this theory somewhere that the signatures of things being consumed into a black-hole can stay in the black-hole) ... If that is true then some unknown law of the Nature can create everything back as they originally were.

My Guru ji says that Evolution (the process of manifestation of everything) and Devolution (the process of everything going unmanifest) is a natural cyclic phenomenon. There cannot be a time when it all started because before manifestation ... there can be no time.

OM is the Only Reality and this alone is called as Brahman / Self etc. Now, how it can explained with the theory you have attempted, is perhaps beyond my capability. Yes, I am eager to learn from you on this subject.

OM

[Mana]

Namaste devotee ji,

I must apologise if my offering is difficult for you to follow. Perhaps this is how certain ideas are currently being expressed in an occidental tong and to scientific minds, rather than in Sanskrit which it would appear is a much easier language in which to express certain concepts and thoughts; this morning I have learned the word vidhātā, it would seem to me that science is currently examining the extremities of this and not of entirety, as you have wisely stated. These ideas have already been expressed so many times before, in the wonderful dhārma of this tradition; as is the very nature and essence of sanātana dhārma its self; quite the opposite is my case, with my still requiring much learning to have anything approaching a firm footing in this wonderful tradition.

My mathematical thought here is perhaps only really of practical use in explaining another perspective to the occidental mind. Particles and matter being only an assessment of the harmonics and rhythms of manifestation, within the field of probable events, at differing energy levels. To speak of partials as "glue"; need I say more?

I am no mathematician either devotee ji, not on paper; I simply express things that I perceive with some very basic math mixed in. I do love probability though it can very eloquently explain that everything is inherently interrelated in a web of causality, by demonstrating the fractal nature of its boundaries or limits; which is roughly what was stated in my previous post. The pattern of emergence that is resultant of his own internal nature. To my mind this can explain such phenomenon as the ratio of the distance between the earth sun and moon, their being practically identical; an occurrence so improbable that it is self is most likely a reflection of the last high improbability event; which in all honesty is better described as puruṣa penetrating prakṛti, to my mind this ratio is that.

I don't really believe in black-holes as such; I believe more so in topology and fractal geometry; see them thus as being a projection of a limited mind, to allow us to perceive things in a simplistic material way; there is nothing in science today that can prove that we do not have a tiny black-hole inside our own body's, from where the subtle body is penetrating our physical body, nothing to prevent this theory at all. The calculation that predicts a black-hole may also be rearranged, to state that all information be stored upon the surface of a black-hole is to perform a mental topological transform upon the notion of the fractal boundary, rather like Arjuna requesting that Kṛṣṇa readopt his human form, in chapter 11 of the Bhagavad Gītā the scientific mind wants god to be a large particle like blob; so he takes that form. Which is more probably; that this be physically placed in one spot in our material world or topologically dispersed along a fractal boundary in conciousness? The answer, to my mind, is that they are the same; the only difference being that of the perspective of the observer. By which I will freely ind actively encourage the thought, that we do not all have the same experience, nor do we have the same sensitivity to the degree with which the topological integration of conciousness with matter is present all around us. To imagine this boundary between conciousness and mater as a distant super massive sphere is rather a limited perception of what is highly apparent in everyday life and all around us; without using a telescope. Time is linear to some to others it is self evidently like a lotus flower

It takes so very little imagination to realise the importance of Chandra's rhythms in the development of the human mind; one need only to look at human childbirth to know this, quite naturally then any apparent dynamic within the system of our existence, this need be examined fully, in order to more adequately understand our own existence, thus the notion of probabilities in relation to gravity being quintessential, and any results that neglect such in science are, to my mind, inherently flawed.

Your Guru ji sounds to be very wise and learned in these matters as do you; and the description that you give seems very much more likely to my mind than a big bang; much more realistic given my personal objective perspective. As such I do not think that I have anything new to offer you devotee ji, other than a different translation of some very old teachings of the ṛṣi, a description of probabilities shifting is simply another way of describing the kalpa and the scale of the ages but in a more modern language; you see all that a particle physicist can really calculate, if he is honest, are probabilities; so this language should make his attention, where as use of another word will not. Underneath the words, as you well know; we are all talking about the same things.

If I can think of a better way of expressing the same for your consideration, I shall do so; this idea is rather important to my current studies and research and I am still very new to my own studies with my Guru in the field of Jyotiṣa. Regardless, please excuse any difficulty that you might have in understanding my current line of thought and explanation, it is undoubtedly a fault of my expression and thinking, not in your understanding; I am still learning to express my thoughts and to write them down; I hope to improve with time. The study of sanskrit, though my approach is perhaps a little unorthodox, seems to be helping me in this.

More work is to be done to make the thought more legible; I see a wonderful future for jyotiṣa in physics. It is the very tool of experimentation, the microscope that they are looking for. Once they get over their pride, so as to see that the path that they are walking has already be walked many times before.

Kind regards.

[kallol]

Om

Namaste.


Sorry that I could not participate in the beautiful discussion for last few days. As in case of Devotee ji, I am also getting lost into the mathematics and probabilities :headscratch: though I know that they play a huge role in the universe, we know.

My feeling is that, it might require different sets of rules and logics as we move from one layer to another. We know force moves objects (even it can be at sub-atomic levels). Now we do not know what moves energy. There can be waves in particles and energy but are they of the same nature and follow the same rules as will be at subtle matter level ?

Is Om a representative sound at gross level or subtle level or at both level ? To what extent Om can be there ? From the gross sensory organs to the subtle sensory organs it can move from the physical to the mental world. Can it go beyond ? I understand it cannot.

Blackholes and whiteholes are at gross level. Can their changes from black holes to master black hole or black hole to white hole relate to the subtle level existences ? I understand that the subtle world is beyond the gross world and its existence is independent of the gross world. Gross world is dependent on subtle world. Though state of subtle world is partially dependent of gross world, its existence is not. So the signatures remain inspite of gross matters.

Similarly subtle world's existence is dependent on the final substratum Consciousness but vice versa is not true.

Dependencies understood. But do these three states remain constant. The mainfestation and unmanifestation then becomes a function of the state of mind. If mind is still, it unmanifests and if the mind is active, it manifests. As we assume constant cycle of the birth and rebirth of universe, is the "still" state then only a theoretical possibility ?

The other theory can be the manifestation and unmanifestation between consciousness and gross matter with the subtle matter acting as the conduit depending on its state. As mind becomes more and more active it is more manifestation and as mind becomes more and more inactive it absorbs energy and unmanifests. :headscratch:

How does our scripture define these phenomenon ?

[smaranam]

Namaste Devoteeji

I am going to re-write your statement thus:


Namaste,

If all disturbances in Consciousness (which create Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain. Here all the phenomena die out. There is no time and there is no space and there is no scope for duality and so there is neither the Cosmic Mind nor the individual minds. This is the state called as, "Prapanchosamah" in MAndukya Upanishad and that is the fourth i.e. Turiya.

OM
If all disturbances in UNIVERSAL Consciousness (which create Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain. [So far so good. This is the final mahA-pralaya at the end of the mahA-kalpa].

If all disturbances in INDIVIDUAL Consciousness (which PERCEIVE Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain for the individual jnAni who has realized.

Here all the phenomena APPEAR TO die out.
There is no time and there is no space and there is no scope for duality and so neither the Cosmic Mind nor the individual minds ARE PERCEIVED. This is the state called as, "Prapanchosamah" in MAndukya Upanishad and that is the fourth i.e. Turiya.

------
So -- one being reached turIya, , but there are other minds not in turIya.

The individual jnAnI who is in turIyAvasthA cannot erase the ontological existence of the Cosmic and other individual minds. S/he can only get rid of their own mind that is it. Then there is no question of perceiving other minds.

[devotee]

Namaste Smaranam,



If all disturbances in INDIVIDUAL Consciousness (which PERCEIVE Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain for the individual jnAni who has realized.

Here all the phenomena APPEAR TO die out.

Yes, logically when we see from our gross state of existence what you say appears the only logical conclusion. However, Advaita Rishis don't accept the reality of phenomenon and if you see from their perspective, they won't like to add "Appear to" in the sentence. There is scientific proof that this is possible. How ? Suppose we didn't have the bandwidth of electromagnetic light-waves and there was X-ray alone for seeing things. Could we have seen the things in the same manner as we same them now. Their being in their shape and colour is only relative to our mind and availability of particular bandwidth of light-waves. We don't know why we perceive things in a certain way and not the other way is not because the things are created in that manner but is dependent also on how our mind is designed to perceive those things.


The individual jnAnI who is in turIyAvasthA cannot erase the ontological existence of the Cosmic and other individual minds. S/he can only get rid of their own mind that is it. Then there is no question of perceiving other minds.

Agreed again. However, there is still debate on this issue between people who think in your way and those who think otherwise.

OM

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

As I understand, unit level mind cannot perceive the lower level minds which contribute towards the unit level mind or any other minds whether lower upper or at same level and also the unit level mind is only one unit contributor to the next higher level mind.

Cosmic mind is possibly several steps higher than our unit level mind. It's state is the sum total of all the states in the next level. So I feel it is right to say that individual attainment of turiya state might not mean the turiya state of the cosmic mind.

However said, does Mahapralaya mean that there is no more cycle of birth ? If no then, at what level the Mahapralaya happens ? If birth has to happen again then there should be residual / potential cause for the next birth. This potential / residual cause cannot be at the lowest substratum consciousness level but at the subtle matter level (at least) if not at the gross level.

This is more like the deep ocean. At deep ocean beyond certain depth, there is absolute stillness and that bears the upper layers. The upper layers starts where there is exchange of parameters. The surface can contain waves froths, icebergs, water vapour above it. In all of these there will be caves / pockets in middle zone where the water can be as still as in deep. So they do not contribute to the changes what is happening on the upper layers.

[Ashish_Marathe]

The mind experiences the energy as consciousness. Whatever we perceive, all that we don't, is energy. Energy creates, fuels, converts, governs, manages and, eventually, annihilates everything.