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yajvan
05 May 2007, 08:29 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

It's said that when the time is right he or she will find you… Yet one needs to have the desire too. Some say, deserve first, then place the desire.

"Rely on the teachings to evaluate a guru:
Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

Some would also argue that you do not need a guru at all. The one has all the faculties within (para-atman) to move to Moksha.
I am not of this school, yet can understand the mechanics of this idea.

Over the years I have been fortunte to have guru's , yet always at arm's length . I have not enjoyed the personal relationship of Guru-sisya up-close but will assume it is on the way.

Many on HDF are fortunate to have a guru. Many may not be even concerned of this, and some/few are of this desire.

When you read of others experiences e.g. Yogananda, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
etc. on their encounters, there are many experiences they share and offer. Yet what would you look for?
- brahmavit
- even tempered
- compassion
- expert in yoga sutra's

What are the things that are important to you? For those that have a guru, does it matter? what you thought in the begining of the relatioship, does it still hold true now?

A fully realized man conscious of his swarupa ( ~ divinity, infinite SELF) is hard to find. - Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, I Am That, page 301

pranams,

sm78
06 May 2007, 04:50 AM
The even tempered man with a rational and unbiased mind is the most suitable for Moksha and atma Jnana as per sri adi shankaracharya.

So, I think the ultimate search for truth is could be a lonely journey. But a guru is essential for 2 reasons.

1. To prevent our spiritual journey from becoming a self-indulgence in imagination and egoism.

2. To break the barrier of the Aham Granthi/ Rudra granthi ~ the Ego itself.

I cannot think the guru-less path can be called a path of Sanatana Dharma. Those belong to new religions who have sprung from sanatana dharma to meet the demands of this yuga.

One more thing which I feel is important-

Some people are fortunate to find a guru easily, some are not inspite of great desire to attain truth. People explain this by means of karma. But another point is "how easily the thing is available depends on what thing you are seeking". Some Guru's are easily available to the masses, yet it is not what the mumukshu seeks.

yajvan
06 May 2007, 04:40 PM
The even tempered man with a rational and unbiased mind is the most suitable for Moksha and atma Jnana as per sri adi shankaracharya.
One more thing which I feel is important-

Some people are fortunate to find a guru easily, some are not inspite of great desire to attain truth. People explain this by means of karma. But another point is "how easily the thing is available depends on what thing you are seeking". Some Guru's are easily available to the masses, yet it is not what the mumukshu seeks.

Namaste sm78,
you make good points....
I subscribe to the following , offered Sri Shankaranarayanan, he says
only a lamp which is burning (itself) can light another lamp.
This is how I see a guru and mantra siddhi. Passing off this gift to another from a lamp that is lit itself. Yet I still belive one can practice meditation with mantra's that are friendly and rewarding to all. We have discussed this in other posts.

I do like the notion of the even tempered guru. This makes sense to me.
For me, the perfect even-tempered augha ( flood, current ~ guru) to be the exponent of Brahman .

This notion of augha is one of tantra. There are 3 that are spoken of ( I am not the expert here): Divyaugha, Siddhaugha and Manavaugha. Theses augha's are divine guides and/or considered mortal mentors for the mumuksha. It is said when the mumuksu is in earnst, the Guru appears to guide him/her.

With tantra and the augha, I subscribe to the Ishtadevata approach. I would think the augha are the equal to this. I am of the belief that the Kumara's play a big role ( as pointed out in the Upanishads). Sanatkumara is also known as Skanda. This Skanda is represented as Mars/Mangal as a graha, and also as Hanumanji - all pointing to Sri Ram ( as the Divine Self).
It is Skanda, they say, that brakes the final knot of ignorance. It is up to the mumuksu with the Guru to set this condition or rapidly advance it to maturity in this life.

What is of interest, and I have heard this several times from the realized ones, that a sadhu may be lead to more then one guru before final reaization is achieved/exprienced. This , I believe, is my condition, and also seen in my janma kundali ( birth chart).... I am also of a guru-mangala yoga that points to a guru realtionship that is due.
With HIS Grace, this will happen.

pranams,

Arvind Sivaraman
07 May 2007, 12:30 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

It's said that when the time is right he or she will find you… Yet one needs to have the desire too. Some say, deserve first, then place the desire.

"Rely on the teachings to evaluate a guru:
Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

Some would also argue that you do not need a guru at all. The one has all the faculties within (para-atman) to move to Moksha.
I am not of this school, yet can understand the mechanics of this idea.

Over the years I have been fortunte to have guru's , yet always at arm's length . I have not enjoyed the personal relationship of Guru-sisya up-close but will assume it is on the way.

Many on HDF are fortunate to have a guru. Many may not be even concerned of this, and some/few are of this desire.

When you read of others experiences e.g. Yogananda, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
etc. on their encounters, there are many experiences they share and offer. Yet what would you look for?
- brahmavit
- even tempered
- compassion
- expert in yoga sutra's

What are the things that are important to you? For those that have a guru, does it matter? what you thought in the begining of the relatioship, does it still hold true now?

A fully realized man conscious of his swarupa ( ~ divinity, infinite SELF) is hard to find. - Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, I Am That, page 301

pranams,

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Yajvan.

A person who relies on his own cleverness and intelligence is sure to meet with difficulties and problems which will be difficult to surmount.
Whereas if there be a Guru (Teacher) to guide him/her, he or she is sure to reach the destination safely.
It is not compulsory to get initiated by way of taking mantra upadesham (Sacred Formula) from a Guru.What the disciple needs to have is Faith and Perseverance.The disciple should serve the Guru in all possible ways.
Just like a Mother tortoises loving glance from one end of the river bank protects its children which is on the other side of the river bank,similarly the Guru's loving glance will protect the disciple though seperate across across seven seas.

There is a term caled "Rinanubandh" meaning former realtionship spread across generations.Thus you would have served your Guru in your former birth.This relationship is bound to continue for many generations to come.

You may also read the books of Sri Ramakrishna Parahamsa and Shri Sai Satcharita (Book on Shri Shirdi Sai Baba by Hemadpant.).It will give you an insight into the mysteries of Guru and Disciple relationship.

sm78
10 May 2007, 03:56 AM
....
only a lamp which is buring (itself) can light another lamp.
...

There are 3 that are spoken of ( I am not the expert here): Divyaugha, Siddhaugha and Manavaugha. Theses augha's are divine guides ...

Namaste,

Thank you for making your thoughts and approach on Guru ( & Sishya) ~ the topic of utmost importance in sanatana dharma available to the readers of the forum.

Indeed what better can a sishya expect than to find a sad-guru who is a realized master. A realized master can impart the seed of moksha by his mere presence.

However I want to add that in the Tantrokta marga, one that is deemed most suitable for this age, a realized master is not the necessary condition for a suitable guru (and this has been told by one most respected authority on sri vidya tantra). What's more important in diksha and mantra samaskara is that Guru belongs to an authentic lineage of siddha gurus. He may not be the burning flame himself, but he needs to the carrier of the torch that has been passed on from ancient times through a lineage of siddha gurus. Thus it is the guru-parampara that is more import than the immediate guru himself. C'use as soon as one gets initiated into the parampara the sishya is no longer remains a drifter but is immediately taken into the guidance by the entire guru mandala ~ divyaugha, siddhaugha, manavaugha.

Sanatana dhrama margas are indeed a path where man submits to the guidance of gods and divine beings and immortal gurus. Self guidance is not sanatana dharma sashana.

I think the most authentic lineages trace back there guru parampara to Siva or Vishnu himself in Sat Yuga.

Blessed are those souls who have found refuge in such a guru-mandala ~ for moksha is guaranteed for them, if not in this immediate life must be in short span of lives. Unless he falls prey to his ego and forgoes what he had received.

sm78
10 May 2007, 04:05 AM
Lemurian scrolls by Sivya subramaniyaswami ~ the saiva saint belonging to one such ancient lineage, tracing back its origins to the dwan of humanity itself on this earth, vividly narrates how sishyas mature under the guidance of the divine masters of such a lineage. It is very much same as the tantrokta marga but nonetheless a separate santana dharma marga. I initially had hesitations about the book because some of the descriptions are indeed fantastic ~ giving fodder to the minds imagination, but gradually I realized the main aim behind the book is more deeper than narrating how humans arrived on this planet. It is very good read and I suppose a must read for those who have been taken into the ancient saiva siddhanta marga.

Namaste.

yajvan
10 May 2007, 01:05 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Indeed what better can a sishya expect than to find a sad-guru who is a realized master. A realized master can impart the seed of moksha by his mere presence.

However I want to add that in the Tantrokta marga, one that is deemed most suitable for this age, a realized master is not the necessary condition for a suitable guru (and this has been told by one most respected authority on sri vidya tantra). What's more important in diksha and mantra samaskara is that Guru belongs to an authentic lineage of siddha gurus.

Namaste sm78,
thank you for your insights as you bring out important points.
If one has a choice, a realized being ( Kavalya-jnanan based guru) is most fortunate to be in his air/presence, let alone have as a guru.

The Katha Upanishad sheds some light on this (valli 2.8). It speaks of the avarena narena, one not established in the SELF and bahudha chintyamanah, that the SELF is not easily known from one that is not the knower of the SELF. Yet there is no doubts when taught by one established in Brahman [ananya-prokte gatir atra nasti ] and his knowledge is beyond atarkyam, or agrumentative debate, as he is anaya - identical~oneness~ with Brahman.

Your insights to the tradition and lineage is of great import, as the knowledge and the 'lamp' is passed down over the eons. Yes, your direction here makes much sense and shows great understanding.
The core lineage that many repsect is the following ( please correct any blemish that you may see here); the lineage also praises the sruti and smriti, etc. yet starts with Lord Narayana, as they that bring the light to the family of man:

narayanam padma-bhavam vashishtham
shaktim cha tat putra parasharam cha
vyasam shukam gauda-padam mahantam
govinda yogindram athasya shishyam
shri shankara charyam athasya padma
padam cha hastamalakam cha shishyam
tam trotakam vartika karam anyan
asmad gurun santata manatosmi
shruti smriti pura-na-nam alayam karuna-layam
namami bhagavat padam shankaram loka shankaram
shankaram shankaracharyam keshavam badarayanam
sutra bhashya kritau vande bhagavaktau punah punah


pranams, and all glory to them that breathes out the Ved

sm78
10 May 2007, 01:39 PM
narayanam padma-bhavam vashishtham
shaktim cha tat putra parasharam cha
vyasam shukam gauda-padam mahantam
govinda yogindram athasya shishyam
shri shankara charyam athasya padma
padam cha hastamalakam cha shishyam
tam trotakam vartika karam anyan
asmad gurun santata manatosmi
shruti smriti pura-na-nam alayam karuna-layam
namami bhagavat padam shankaram loka shankaram
shankaram shankaracharyam keshavam badarayanam
sutra bhashya kritau vande bhagavaktau punah punah


I have 2 lineage's in mind. One is the above, the other is same as above till Govindapadacharya. Yes shakteya smarta parampara is what i feel closest to. There has been a connection established with the guru mandala of these paramparas. I don't know if that seed will mature to fruit in this very life. Koti Koti shastanga pranams to the holy feet of the immortal gurus of this parampara.

Yet for a considerable time I did seek kaula marga but amba has other plans it seems.

Vivamis123
27 May 2008, 10:07 AM
Life itself was/is my Guru.

My path started 20 years ago, after having mystical experiences. I searched for answers in esoteric, metaphysic and religion, but could not find the answers I was looking for.

I noticed miracles happening around me...without "me" doing anything. I started to expereiment with different techniques...but none of them worked. That is when I started to observe "me"....my thoughts, my feelings, my beliefs, my experiences and what was brought to my attention through other mediums. I became fully conscious of "me" what I was doing, why and how.

Then I turned to the outside and noticed how the outside was reflecting my inside and that change came about as I changed.

I became aware that things happened...perfectly....when I took "no thought" to the appearance of things. I did not ignor them, but simply placed no judgment (good or bad) on them.

I became the witness...then a silent witness....and then melted into one.

You are the Guru...and the Guru will appear where ever you believe the Guru is. Yes, you are that powerful : )

MahaHrada
27 May 2008, 03:34 PM
Life itself was/is my Guru.

My path started 20 years ago, after having mystical experiences. I searched for answers in esoteric, metaphysic and religion, but could not find the answers I was looking for.

I noticed miracles happening around me...without "me" doing anything. I started to expereiment with different techniques...but none of them worked. That is when I started to observe "me"....my thoughts, my feelings, my beliefs, my experiences and what was brought to my attention through other mediums. I became fully conscious of "me" what I was doing, why and how.

Then I turned to the outside and noticed how the outside was reflecting my inside and that change came about as I changed.

I became aware that things happened...perfectly....when I took "no thought" to the appearance of things. I did not ignor them, but simply placed no judgment (good or bad) on them.

I became the witness...then a silent witness....and then melted into one.



Namaste Vivamis123

What you write in your posting makes me belive that you might be in the fortunate situation to develop one of the four basic qualifications that are needed to begin sadhana. It seems that you describe what is called ín sanskrit "Vairagya" the second virtue Vairagya means translated, Dispassion or non attachment.

The following 4 virtues are the first steps on the path of sadhana and they may ripen slowly.

Guru becomes important after all of them are present. They are:

1. Viveka : Discrimination
2. Vairagya : Dispassion or non attachment, which it seems you are starting to develop.
3. ShamAdi Shat Sampatti: Six qualities: Shama: mastery over the mind, dama: over the sense organs. Uparati : observance of one's prescribed position in life: TitikshA: being unmoved by heat, cold, pleasure, pain. shraddhA: faith in the words of Guru and shastra. Samadhana: contentedness and single-pointedness of the mind.
4. Mumukshutva: Desire for liberation.

As you already mentioned these qualities can begin to ripen on its own and do not require a Guru, because they are the first basic qualifications needed before one will approach a teacher.

They are known as the sAdhanA ChatuShTaya.

After one has developed all these qualities one has ripenend to a stage that enables one to develop the desire for, and receive the instruction of a Guru.

If these qualities are nascent, or only some of them have fully ripened, there is no need for a human guru and that is why the desire to find a teacher will not arise in the first place.

Mahahrada

Kaos
27 May 2008, 03:37 PM
It has been said, that in this age of the Kali Yuga where dualities are prominent and people are confused, it is better to chant The Maha Mantra "Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare".

yajvan
27 May 2008, 07:13 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

All the stars in the sky rejoice when one finds their way.


pranams

Vivamis123
28 May 2008, 12:05 AM
Thank you Mahahrada for taking the time to explain in detail. I can see where I might not have fully "ripened"...the senses...as it was brought to my attention on the other thread LOL

When I say Life itself is my Guru...I mean everything. I see everything and everyone as my Guru. It never occured to me that I could "simply" follow someone else's path. When I started my path I did not know that others had walked before me...maybe it was divine that way : )

MahaHrada
28 May 2008, 04:18 AM
Thank you Mahahrada for taking the time to explain in detail. I can see where I might not have fully "ripened"...the senses...as it was brought to my attention on the other thread LOL

When I say Life itself is my Guru...I mean everything. I see everything and everyone as my Guru. It never occured to me that I could "simply" follow someone else's path. When I started my path I did not know that others had walked before me...maybe it was divine that way : )

Namaste Vivamis123

Lets look at one of the qualities Uparati : observance of one's prescribed position in life, it means satisfaction with ones own situation, that is one should not have the wish to become someone else, or follow someones else paths, it means to be happy with ones own nature as it is.

A Guru should not make you follow his path, what he should do is exactly the opposite: help you get rid of the bonds that restrict you from repose in your very own nature.

karuna khadga pAtena chitvA pAshAstakam shisho
samyag Ananda janakah sadguruH sobhidiyate

The Sadguru is he who cuts the eight bonds of the disciple
by the means of his sword of compassion giving rise to absolute bliss.

SiddhAsiddhanta PaddhatiH Goraknath

What are the eight bonds?
1. ghrna: contempt
2.shAnkA: doubt
3.bhaya: fear
4. lajja: shame
5.jugupsa: dislike-disgust-jealousy
6.kula:family or conventional social group
7.shila: social rules
8. jati: birth i.e class restrictions or favours

kularnava tantra says
pAshabaddho bhavejjivo pAsamuktah sAdashivaH

One who is bound by bonds is a mortal (jiva)
free from bonds he is Sadashiva:

Being similar to Sadashiva does not mean that you become something different (sadashiva) from what you already are (jiva=limited being) it means gaining access to a transpersonal state that is already there in a latent state, one is only partially or not at all aware of.

Mahahrada