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Anirudh
21 September 2015, 02:43 PM
Namaste

There is an opinion that India (as a single nation ) never existed before Britishers united us under one flag. Few political outfits down south too voice this thought to get votes every five years. The chief of one such political outfit while in office as CM even wondered whether Sri Raama Chandra Prabhu ever lived on this earth? Keeping such intellectually motivating scientific derivation away from the scope of this discussion can members share their wisdom with me on the question I have raised?

I hope Indians too will share their opinion

Thanks ...

Punit
21 September 2015, 04:00 PM
India and China were the worlds largest economies till the 17th century when British started looting India.
Check the first graph in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163610/Fascinating-new-graph-shows-economic-history-world-Jesus.html

deafAncient
21 September 2015, 09:27 PM
What has happened is that technically adept brutes developed warfare and used it to their advantage to steal the technology and knowledge from India, and look at it now. Just shaking my head and wondering how this can be reversed. I would have liked to have seen how India's version of today's technology would have turned out, had they not been invaded...

Anirudh
26 September 2015, 07:01 AM
Namaste D.A

Could you please explain your statement little bit.
I

Also do you think we should blame Kshatria and Vishyas for this? What is the role of Brahmins in this ?






What has happened is that

technically adept brutes

developed warfare and used it to their advantage to steal the technology and knowledge from India



PS. You needn't reply if you think I am deviating from the original question

Anirudh
26 September 2015, 07:04 AM
India and China were the worlds largest economies till the 17th century when British started looting India.
Check the first graph in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163610/Fascinating-new-graph-shows-economic-history-world-Jesus.html

Thank you punith ...

Can you answer the questions I have asked deafAncient ji

deafAncient
26 September 2015, 09:21 AM
Namaste D.A

Could you please explain your statement little bit.

Also do you think we should blame Kshatria and Vishyas for this? What is the role of Brahmins in this ?


Technically adept brutes = Europeans involved in the colonization of India and other countries. This means brutes who are materialistic barbarians who know how to use technology for the wrong reasons.

I'm not sure who to assign blame within varṇa/āśrama/jāti society just before and at the beginning of the foreign invasions. I think what happened was that civilization was very refined and elevated to the point that wars between kings were not conducted in a dirty way because you had to think about the karmic baggage of fighting dirty and at the same time be aware of apad dharma - doing what is necessary to safeguard dharma. However, this left them vulnerable to peoples whose armies did not care about karma and broke every rule in the rulebook of warfare, catching them off-guard. Eventually, Kśatriyas in general had to upgrade their weaponry and their military tactics to eventually route the invaders, but it was too late to defeat the far-superior navies of Europe and their Marines.

The lesson I would take from this is that you have to be eternally vigilant in guarding Dharma and never letting a people get out of hand with the ability to defeat you, otherwise look at it now. If the Muslims had never been successful, neither the Europeans in invading and colonizing India, what would India look like today, what would cars in India look like today and how would they be manufactured, what would our electronics be like today, what would the fabric of societies look like today around the world? I don't know if this question can be answered with any degree of accuracy because India was already more advanced than Europe in manufacturing, sciences, metallurgy, etc. at the time of the invasion. Inoculations in rural areas of India were already being carried out at the time the British saw this and put a stop to it. Essentially, Europeans put India's own technological development to a standstill as Europe took over from India's lead. This has changed forever.

Eastern Mind
26 September 2015, 10:58 AM
Vannakkam: India is the only country on this planet where the majority has to fight and defend its rights.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
26 September 2015, 02:09 PM
Namaste,


India is the only country on this planet where the majority has to fight and defend it's rights.
And the people of the majority group who speak up for their rights are labeled 'Hindu Nationalists', 'Saffron Brigade' and worse. The universalists among the Hindus sit on the sidelines and cheer the accusers. What a disgusting scenario!

Pranam.

devotee
27 September 2015, 03:42 AM
Namaste,



There is an opinion that India (as a single nation ) never existed before Britishers united us under one flag.

This is not true. The map at the time of Chandragupta Maurya shows that India he ruled included even today's Nepal, Burma, Bangladesh, P:akistan and Afghanistan. Yes, sometimes when the ruler was weak, many kings used to declare their independence which was a norm at that time. In fact, this situation was there even when Ashoka ascended to the throne.

India started getting weaker when Buddhism was adopted as state policy by Ashoka and the money which could have been used for technological advancement and scientific research was spent on spreading the message of Buddha. As the centre was no longer that strong, it led to disintegration of states and made India easy prey to Islamic invaders.

OM

Anirudh
27 September 2015, 07:17 AM
Namaste deafAncient

Thanks for elaborating and sharing your views on the probable reasons for invasion(s) and losses.

Do you think Indian philosophies especially the (pious) code of conduct limited Indians from saving their mother land. Then what is the use of them?

There are many instances in Mahabharatha and Ramayana where the code of conduct was compromised according to the need of the hour. Do you think while dealing with Invaders, Indians wouldn't have changed their methods as per the situation ?

I agree with your brutality of the invading force. But History says Invading forces made several attempts to capture India. Do you think India didn't get a MAN like chanakya after his death to unite Indian kings under one flag ?

Anirudh
27 September 2015, 07:30 AM
India started getting weaker when Buddhism was adopted as state policy by Ashoka and the money which could have been used for technological advancement and scientific research was spent on spreading the message of Buddha. As the centre was no longer that strong, it led to disintegration of states and made India easy prey to Islamic invaders.


Thank you devotee ji.

I don't know much about Buddhism. All I understand is it emphasise more on Ahimsa.

Japan was also a Buddhist majority. Wasn't it? But weren't they brutal in dealing their enemies

Anirudh
27 September 2015, 07:50 AM
Namaste,


And the people of the majority group who speak up for their rights are labeled 'Hindu Nationalists', 'Saffron Brigade' and worse. The universalists among the Hindus sit on the sidelines and cheer the accusers. What a disgusting scenario!

Pranam.

Namaste EM ji and Believer ji

It is because we are disillusioned. We don't know the glory of our past, even if we wish to know we dont have proper guidance.

Centuries of slavery, deceit and subjugation has made us to fight among ourselves for the basics.

I am slowly moving away from my original but its a natural progression.

I am going to create a new thread. If members find my question worthy please share your views...

satay
27 September 2015, 12:41 PM
Namaste,

The OP is complete nonsense. Please get your hands on the book called Asia and western dominance by K.M. panikkar. He explains how indian economy was more than 24% of the world GDP before the invasions began in 1400s where as England, Germany, France combined GDP was 6%.




‘Indiaas a land of Desire iced an essential element in general history. From themost ancient times downwards, all nations have directed their wishes andlongings to pining access to the treasures of this land of marvels, the mostcostly which the earth presents, treasures of nature - pearls, diamonds,perfumes, rose essences, lions, elephants, etc. - as also treasures of wisdom.The way by which these treasures have passed to the West has at all tinsbeen a matter of world historical importance bound up with the fate ofnations.’





Spices which became moreand more an essential for European cookery could not be obtained exceptfrom India and Indonesia and must come through Persia or Egypt; thisindispensable and naturally monopolist trade came to be the chief bone ofcontention in the politics of the Levant and was the most powerful singlefactor in stimulating European expansion in the fifteenth century. The Tatarascendancy in Persia, before the conversion of the Ilkhanate to Islam,allowed Italian traders to go direct to India and cut prices against theEgyptians, who were wont to raise them 300 per cent as middlemenbetween India and Europe; as a result Europeans knew where spices wereproduced and at what cost, so that when they were again cut off from theIndian market by a hostile Islam and by incessant wars in the Levant, theywere well aware of the opportunities awaiting any Power that could find anew route to the “Indies where the spices grow”.’





I have the pdf version of the book. Email or pm me if you want it. It is available on the Internet under free licence.

Anirudh
27 September 2015, 06:05 PM
Namaste Satay ji

I can understand your post. Even I know INDIA wasn't poor before ISLAMIC invasion. If India was poor why would they invade ?

Sadly we are told that ( including the text books printed by various state government of India) we are Kannadigas, Tamils, Maratis, Biharis etc etc. They also include a statement that we are Indians first but that statement is completely forgotten or not read at all. Even if read politics around resource sharing has created many countries with in a single district ....

So we have Bimaru Gangetic plains, Aethist / Communist TN, Kerala, West Bengal etc etc.

Not many know that people living in Northeast states like Manipur , Meghalaya, Sikkim etc are also Indians. For most of us Andaman & Nicobar is a tribal land.

I raised this thread after reading and participating in "Does Britain owe Reparations to India"?

This thread and "Use of Hindu ?" is my way of asking patriotic questions to fellow Indians.

In case if it doesn't fall with in the rules of posting kindly delete them or take appropriate actions.

Also Kindly send me the link of PDF you have mentioned in your post...

Thanks in advance...

deafAncient
27 September 2015, 10:42 PM
Namaste deafAncient

Do you think Indian philosophies especially the (pious) code of conduct limited Indians from saving their mother land. Then what is the use of them?

There are many instances in Mahabharatha and Ramayana where the code of conduct was compromised according to the need of the hour. Do you think while dealing with Invaders, Indians wouldn't have changed their methods as per the situation ?

I agree with your brutality of the invading force. But History says Invading forces made several attempts to capture India. Do you think India didn't get a MAN like chanakya after his death to unite Indian kings under one flag ?

First question - my take on it is that they had forgotten the term "apad dharma" - sometimes you have to do things that are normally contraindicated under dharma. Being invaded or attacked is such a case.

Second question - they would have changed their methods had they remembered the flexibility of their mindset - don't let the past determine the future. See what you're dealing with and come up with ways to deal with these new situations. Dharmic understanding of chaos and order is supposed to help with such situations, as Indians are more comfortable with situations that would drive non-dharmis nuts.

Third question. I am not aware of who chanakya is, but yes, the Mughals still could not break Bhārata in the end, and what attracted them to Bhārata in the first place (considering the level of i-consciousness they had) was the unimaginable wealth that was just there for the taking when they invaded. This is the ONLY reason Muslims have some money like this (not including the money from oil sales) - they stole the money during those invasions. They were roaming the desert and too busy to survive to even learn how to find, dig up, and mint gold/silver coins. This means that even the first ones to start minting gold in Muslim countries couldn't come close to the volume already minted in Bhārata.



Namaste,

The OP is complete nonsense. Please get your hands on the book called Asia and western dominance by K.M. panikkar. He explains how indian economy was more than 24% of the world GDP before the invasions began in 1400s where as England, Germany, France combined GDP was 6%.

I would second this book. Warning - it is a difficult read because of many of its hard-to-stomach details of the crimes and strategies, but you HAVE to read this book. It took me weeks of reading this book, and at times, I had to leave the book alone for a while. One example is the shutdown and theft of factories and shipping them to Britain (which is how the industrial revolution in Britain got started, after reverse-engineering the machinery!), leaving the Indians to farm and rough up raw materials for shipping to the British factories who needed the materials. This really devastated the Indian economy. India has never really recovered from it. This absolutely left me apoplectic. That's just one of many things reported in the book.

markandeya 108 dasa
28 September 2015, 03:20 AM
Namaste,

I dont think any country was inherently poor before exploitation. I find it odd that people seem to think that the technological and industrial evolution is solely based on India, there is an interesting book call 1421 about how the Chinese brought the knowledge of industrial revolution to Europe and and started the Renaissance, I am sure many Hindus will claim that they taught the Chinese. But even today we can see how the Chinese are much more adapt at industry than most Asian countries. And how they have put their past behind them and rose to the challenge of the modern world. I would also say some study needs to be made about the Ottaman empire and maybe what the world would be like now if they had made the same advancements in the industrial revolution as Europe, it maybe a case of choosing between 2 evils, especially how within current world affairs capitalism is the ill of world peace.

History is complex and its not all based on what happened and revolved around India alone, but using the example of China which has recovered from its own History of Invasions from Mongals and British are prospering but at the same time are keeping their national and ancient identity in the modern world, thats the challenge. I think rather than keep going back into history and blaming outside influence and invasion, which was more to do with invitations that went wrong one need only look at how the current Indian Government is inviting the latest invasion of culture with open arms in the form of pure capitalism and selling the soul of the country for profit. India needs to take a good long hard look at itself as well as blaming others.

I went to Vrndavan this year first time in 10 years, and my first visit was in 93, in 93 Vrndavan was just a sleepy but bustling village and town, hardly any cars and it was not always easy to find accommodation unless one stayed in the in Ashrams, but gradually it has built up, with an economic boost from Westerners and a revitalized Delhi crowd coming to the Holy land, there is now the Yamuna express to help the money from Delhi get spent more easily to boost the local economy. Does the government care about the preservation of the Holy land and its original culture, or is it just purely about greed and profit at the expense of the ancient culture.

Did the Indian government protect the Sadhus that lived for centuries on Vrndavan Parikrama Marg from the Delhi and Local Gundas from being killed and threatened to move for real estate purposes. I guess that was everyone elses fault apart from Indians.

After having lived in Asia for 15 years and spent long periods both in China and India I really think India can look to China on how to adapt to living in the modern world but protecting its own culture. The future is in the hands of the present people, and while you have Modi who tries his best at the same time you have a government that is selling the soul of India to the highest bidder.

deafAncient
28 September 2015, 08:20 AM
Namaste Markandeya,

Be very careful about applying the Chinese model to India. You might want to read http://www.bjp.org/about-the-party/philosophy/?u=integral-humanism to understand why to emulate the Chinese is not a good idea. You have to remember that communism is a Western rejection of the Christian capitalist society. Neither communism nor capitalism are viable long-term solutions. You have to remember that this is a very destructive, dangerous phenomenon arising simply out of Karl Marx’s reaction to religion. It was either the Church had full control, or it had none at all, not even existence in secular society. Karl Marx’s father was the first in his line to receive a secular education.

Is either Communism or Capitalism a viable solution in the long run?

Communism, no, because they have several problems. One infamous problem is that they don't know how to regulate production; just look at the excess mileage of roads and entire cities nobody is using, not to mention the level of pollution that is evident in major cities and in the country side, where the remaining farmers are beside MEGA super-fund-like sites, causing them deadly health problems. Another problem is the profile of the average person in a communist society. From a puruṣārtha standpoint, communism suppresses independent artha, kāma to what it deems “appropriate," and usually quashes down moksha, and dharma would be limited to “what is appropriate behavior of right or wrong according to the institution of the state.”

Capitalism, no, because they also have several problems. This society tackles the “problem” of puruṣārtha in a different way, in that it fully supports artha (make as much money as you dream, if you can) and kāma (we want you to spend this money on mind-distracting things like TV, trips to Barbados, skiing trips, football games, anything to keep you from realizing what we’re doing to you by enslaving you as docile service workers), while being indifferent to dharma (just bang the bell on those futures contracts, as long as we don’t get caught). There is no moksha here, and they couldn’t care less about it because of their Christian concept of after-life, or in the case of atheists, nihilism.

Both communism and capitalism don't have inner science to control their potential destructive behaviors in terms of manufacturing and treatment of living things within nature as civilized beings. Both are also wood-burning cultures that devastate employees, customers, and the environment. Both also don’t use inner science to look inward for solutions and grow their potential as conscious beings. They exist as “technically-adept brutes,” little above animals, but with the ability to think and speak. These kinds of people are particularly dangerous if you look at it this way, because they honestly don’t know the consequences of their actions, or if they do (as in the case of warfare technology like Agent Orange), they ignore or cover up the consequences as much as they can.

Read this thread over here to understand India’s response to modern Western civilization. http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?14220-How-did-East-India-Company-begin-its-roots-in-India

China’s model doesn’t apply to India because it is a Western reaction to a Western problem, that of involvement of the church in state and daily affairs and of independent production/economic models in Capitalism by banning religion in society and nationalizing economics. This sounds a bit like secularization, doesn’t it? Secularization, as is the case in the US and much further in communism, is a Western solution to a Western problem because secularization is CAUSED by the western model of synthetic unity, meaning the uncomfortable kludging together of Western religion with Western science to form an inherently unstable union, a synthetic union, that constant tension between Church power, and National State and science.

Dharmic civilization never had that problem to start with because of its integral unity. You have to realize that Anglo attempts to “secularize” India arises out of its misunderstanding of Sanātana Dharma (as mata, sampradāya, or pāntha) versus Dharma. Because of their own experiences and bias, they think that SD will do the same things to government and people that Christianity did. This is all based on a failure to look at dharmic culture from a level perspective and learning about how it functions, because Westerners feel threatened by Dharmic concepts that serve to take away the powers that the controllers have in Western civilization and goes directly up against their concept of how to live civilizationally within nature.

markandeya 108 dasa
28 September 2015, 09:36 AM
Namaste DA,

China is not communist, it had an influence but its much closer to a totalitarian system that the Government adopts than Karl Marx socialism, it just an American View that China was communist, but Mao adopted certain principles for teh state to have central power with his great leap forward, which turned out having mixed results. There were obvious teething problems with what he applied but now its pretty well balanced and there is both freedom of religion and ecomonic growth. So your argument wouldnt have any basis from a Chinese perspective, I know I have spent long periods in China and they have not lost their ancient cultural identity, no mater how American always try to demonize and reduce their way of life to communism.

But my main point is that China has survived and recovered and kept their cultural identity, and the government protects the interests of China as a identity rather than selling itself out purely for profit, which Indian government is very much involved in.

deafAncient
28 September 2015, 11:18 AM
But my main point is that China has survived and recovered and kept their cultural identity, and the government protects the interests of China as a identity rather than selling itself out purely for profit, which Indian government is very much involved in.

Namaste Markandeya,

Point taken, and I have to wonder what Bhārata would have looked like under China's circumstances, from its Dharmic perspective.

Praṇāma

devotee
29 September 2015, 12:17 AM
Namaste Markandeya,



China is not communist, it had an influence but its much closer to a totalitarian system that the Government adopts than Karl Marx socialism, it just an American View that China was communist, but Mao adopted certain principles for teh state to have central power with his great leap forward, which turned out having mixed results. There were obvious teething problems with what he applied but now its pretty well balanced and there is both freedom of religion and ecomonic growth. So your argument wouldnt have any basis from a Chinese perspective, I know I have spent long periods in China and they have not lost their ancient cultural identity, no mater how American always try to demonize and reduce their way of life to communism.

But my main point is that China has survived and recovered and kept their cultural identity, and the government protects the interests of China as a identity rather than selling itself out purely for profit, which Indian government is very much involved in.

Then you don't understand India and also China, imho. China can do Tiananmen square ... India can't think of it. What are you saying ? If it was was so simple, India would have done it much earlier. India's democracy is much more complicated that you can ever think of and that poses a number of questions which you don't count while suggesting such OTC remedies.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 04:39 AM
Namaste Devotee Ji,

I dont understand why your bringing in Tiananmen square, what exactly is your point. But anyway I am not here to advertise the faults of China or India, I would be here all day if that was the case. Have you been to China, or do you only learn about China from the Internet. When one goes to China and speaks and lives with the people you will find a complete different dynamic, the projection of China from the outside and the reality is like day and night.

Without going into the demographics of politics which is usually how to measure who is the most or least corrupt, I think its good to look at how the countries are adapting to modern life but at the same time keeping its own identity. I think China in this respect from a normal perspective rather than an intellectual and historical or even going in politics is that China is way ahead of India. Change cannot be avoided, and India is struggling vastly to come into the modern world. You wont see the stark poverty on the streets but it has a larger population, crime is less and people dont pass stool and urine where ever they stand, they have far more discipline and are not going around blaming everyone else but doing very little to change things.

Like all countries it also has it problems, but it doesn't always sit around talking fancy philosophy above their realization and its a country that has galvanized itself and is in a state of repair and its done a great job if you ask me and can only go from strength to strength. And while China and the average Chinese person will complain about their government and foreign policies they usually end up doing something about it and the quality of life in China is always getting better. Its a country that went from stark poverty and just as much hardships as India but now sits on the largest $ bank reserve, and within a century is more or less a super power.

If you compare Shanghai to Delhi there is absolutely no comparison, its centuries ahead, and while the cities are vastly more modern, even more than Cities in the west, there is a feeling of culture, and if you go to any normal home in China they will have a very good balance between modern and traditional aesthetic.

While I agree that the dynamics and many other things are different between China and India and they can't be carbon copied there is much to learn from how the Chinese have dealt with coming into the modern world but remain their own power, when to me it just seems that India is all for show, the government says it wants to protect its own culture and identity but in the background is selling the values of what real India is to the highest bidder.

Ask your average Chinese person what they think about foreign influence, most the time they will say they dont care about what the rest of the world is doing and what has done but how they react to the problem and their own sense of patriotism to their own country is far more important.

http://fortune.com/2015/01/25/india-the-next-superpower/

http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/what-india-needs-to-learn-from-china/

https://www.quora.com/What-can-India-learn-from-China-And-what-can-China-learn-from-India

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/21/make-in-india-lessons-from-china.html

Lets just look at one sector within India and compare it to China, the railway system. Does the Indian Railway system make a loss year after year. Now from my experience I first caught a train in India in 1993, my last was this year 2015, the only real change and upgrade of the trains is that people can now charge their mobile phones, and perhaps a few new engines which is probably done out of necessity rather than advancement, its still just as shabby as it was 22 years ago, and the train journey times are pretty much the same. What ever profits has been made has not been reinvested in the railways infrastructure, I guess that is an outside influence problem too. But any country knows just how important railway and road systems are for a healthy economy. India is not a poor country, it lack discipline and is absurdly corrupt.

I worked for a few months with Buddhist in Bihar who were reaching out to the dalits, helping them with education and basic amenities just for survival. i know stories that would make any decent Indian hide his head in shame just how corrupt and exploitative Indians can be to their own people, its worse than barbaric.

Then as followers of Dharma to different degrees how is the protection of Holy lands being preserved, the most sacred aspect of India, not very much in all honesty, the temples are run by Gundas far to often and corruption of the very thing that gives India its main identity is not checked. Jagganatha Puri is a mess if you ask me due to the tourist industry, are the temples aiding the well being of the economy , not to my knowledge. Sri Krsna is one of the most loved Gods in India, and the crown jewel of Vedic knowledge could well be the Bhagavad Gita, but is the holy land of Vrndavan being maintain as the most sacred place, even Mecca is more looked after than Vrndavan, Yamuna river is hot topic, which has been replaced with local sewer water, and the government will not let the real Yamuna takes its rightful path through Vrndavana unless it proves to be economically viable, how shameful is that. Again this is everyone else faults apart from Indians.

As I say Indians need to take a good hard and long look at themselves and stop complaining about history as the only cause of its demise, the future is in the hands of Indians and nobody else, lets see what your made of.

I hope nobody is offended by my post, as you say I know nothing.

devotee
29 September 2015, 06:28 AM
Namaste Markandeya,

I hope you understand how administrative reforms take place politically and socially. However, from your post it appears that you don't.

You have pointed all faults that India carries and has blamed the Indians for everything that is bad in this country. Right ? Dear friend from the west, when the entire Europe was in Dark Age, the same country was having working democracy. Your whole of Europe was dying to find a sea route to this country. And now, you find all dirty/filthy people in India and your sense of arrogance and hatred for this country is visible in the language that you have used.

Dear friend, you have missed a very important point here. The Chinese don't have democracy and diversity that India has. In China, the way it has progressed to this position, it won't take much time to fall if the rule goes into wrong hands. In India, adopting any unethical / illegal route for copying technology is not easy. It is not easy to make harsh but economically sensible rules so easily. Today, China is under a rule which I will describe as benign dictatorship of one party. This style of governance gives quickest results as there is no opposition to whatever is to be implemented. This luxury is not available to India. However, China has a great danger, if the top leaders of the party who matter don't act in national interests but act at their whims and fancy. Again, there won't be any opposition. If there is an opposition, they won't hesitate to bring in even tanks to attack their people ... this is what they did in Tianamen Square.

As far as corruption, China, not even a few decades back it was considered extremely corrupt. However, the corruption goes with economic prosperity. Economic prosperity helps in many ways and you see all changes that you see in China and not in India :

a) People are paid handsomely and therefore, no longer need to be corrupt. Still there are some greedy people but their number is less and so, people develop robust systems that tackle corruption.
b) You have money to invest to bring in good technologically advanced systems which doesn't allow corruption easily.
c) You have money to spend on sanitation, education, civic amenities etc. and therefore, you see a clean country and well behaved people.

::
::

It is true that you have got a chance to laugh at us today. This is just not our time. However, the only thing permanent in this universe is that nothing is permanent. Who knows what would come tomorrow. The Laws of Nature are not easily understandable.

May you be happy ..

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 07:08 AM
Devotee Ji,

Your taking fully the wrong way as usual, but as with all my post your always kind enough to say how little I know about anything.

Lets make it simple

India can no longer blame everyone else for its problems, the future is in its own hands. And as I expressed in one of your kind personal messages where you seem to care about what I post and say, I said very clearly that I would love to see India healthy, but if it is to be healthy materially and spirituality it needs to have a very good long hard look at itself, and to just keep blaming others is just another cop out and shifts the blame onto others. India could and should be a super power already, but why isn't it, corruption, and now that corruption is being masked by the old worn out excuse of foreign influence. If you dont get backing with that view then people are some how an enemy of India, perhaps your best critic is sometimes the best friend, but people would rather back the protagonist which only fuel things further, as a country that is highly intelligent I find it amazing how gullible people are or can be at the same time.

Have you ever considered that always going back and blaming others is another mask for internal corruption. Example, India is a still a poor 3 world nation due to foreign influence, really how many intelligent people can still buy this. After the second world war, and India was also handed back its Independence most countries were in ruins and tatters, apart from America. Germany was split in two, Russia massacred its own people, the Jews were reduced to less than half their population, Japan was hit twice with an atomic bomb, China was in tatters. But almost all these mentioned have risen to the challenged and become modern countries with various benefits, although its stupid to say that everything is all good and dandy.

Every country has corruption, no place is utopia, but saying that the above countries have also invested wisely in their own people, India is yet to do if you ask me, both materially and spiritually.

India can be great again, no doubt about that, but is it up you to deal with facing the harsh conditions of a modern world.

Lets see

devotee
29 September 2015, 07:26 AM
Namaste Markandeya,

Did I blame foreigners for our condition today ? Please show me where I did. You don't read my posts with patience and then go on writing the same thing again and again !!

What I trying to tell you is that India cannot change as fast as China did. It is not possible. It is not because what you are writing and putting us to shame by mentioning "corruption" as the only thing that hampers our growth today. It is not. "Corruption" is just one element and it cannot be just wished away. You cannot wish that all the corrupt people of India become saints overnight ! It is not done that way.

You have to appreciate that there are many factors which must be tackled simultaneously at different fronts. China too was a very corrupt country not so long ago. Japan was not so ethical country in the late 60's and early '70s. Japan shamelessly copied technology violating copyrights and exporting low quality products at low costs and amassed foreign exchange. This too is what China did.

I am not blaming others for our problems. I am not that type of a person. However, I have the experience and knowledge to say with authority that it is not as easy as you have painted. We need some political luck and some strong social movement ... may be the time is ripe for that.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 08:03 AM
Namaste Devotee Ji,

I was talking in general about what the vast majority of Hindus think and say, go to any site where Hinduism and the state of India is being spoken about and the general comments is that its everyone else fault and keep using the same rhetoric and it becomes tiring to hear the same excuses again and again without due focus on internal affairs. My comments are direct but also general, and I didn't want to get into a point by point discussion, that usually ends up being tedious and I become bored quite quickly. So my comments are for a short sharp shock effect, everyone can fill in the details as they see fit.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with everything you have wrote, there are always lots of shades of grey in everything we look at at study, and most of the grey areas are impossible to define accurately due to living in dualistic world, where there is always a counter argument on almost every single thing, it cant be avoided, thats why I said to you I only go so far in these types of topics, people will always see things from a slightly and often greatly different angle.

I will stick with admiring parts of the Chinese long term plan, will it fully work out, who knows because as you say things are in constant change, if there was not a global economic melt down who knows how powerful China would be now, so there are always external attacks on every nation, its not just India, every single country is fighting for its survival, the world is still at war, its not always military. If there was one nation that I would want to prosper and see its full potential that would be India because it has so much to offer. But if it took the same attitude of China and ignore what others think or do then India will be an inspired nation rather than a wounded animal.

devotee
29 September 2015, 08:20 AM
... and btw, if I am not wrong, you are from Britain, right ? You are saying that we are corrupt and filthy and what not ? You are from the same country which shamelessly looted us ? Now, you have no shame in calling us corrupt, filthy and poor just because you have looted the whole world and India and amassed wealth for the whole of 17th to 20th century ? We are bad because we didn't go into any other country's territory and looted them ... because we didn't cripple any other country's economy that your country did ... because we didn't exploit human beings the way your country did ?

You are teaching us lessons on how to become prosperous by abandoning corruption because we are the most corrupt country that you have seen ? You are giving example of China but you have forgotten that China was never enslaved by any country the way your country enslaved ours. You have forgotten that Japan was already a developed country when the bomb was dropped on her cities.

This is your country which allowed Jalianwala Bagh killing thousands of helpless innocent unarmed people including women and children. It was your country which imposed 400% on indigenous goods to force Indians to buy your factory-produced goods. It was your country which made our caste-divide so deeper that we are paying even today for that. It was your country which was responsible for encouraging Muslim groups who wanted partition of India in spite of the fact that in the elections, those parties didn't get majority even in those states where Muslims were in majority. It was solely your country who was responsible for creation of Pakistan for which the whole world is paying in form of terrorism and may be future nuclear war. It was your country which made mockery of judiciary system while ruling India. It was your country who played all dirty tricks to keep our nation enslaved for the whole century.

You should remember the above when you start preaching us. Yes, we fully know that it is only we who can change our state. It is only we who have to fight evils of poverty, corruption and dirtiness. We will do it. Don't have a doubt on it.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 09:13 AM
I think you went off the rails there :)

devotee
29 September 2015, 09:40 AM
I think you went off the rails there :)

Yes. And the reason was that you were blaming us for all the evils we are facing today. You were not listening that we have conditions much different from China and Japan that you are mentioning.

My Dear friend, the corruption, the filth, the mismanagement that you see in this country are product of poverty that we faced for centuries because of English rule. You have not seen what poverty means. You don't know what hunger means. in 1934, when thousands of people were dying of hunger in Bengal, your Queen had said, "If they don't have bread to eat, why don't they eat cake ?" ! This is how much the English empire cared for India and the Indian people.

I will give you an example. Suppose in a family the only bread earner is the husband. You kill the husband. Due to poverty arising out of this act, the poor wife is forced to beg and take to prostitution to feed her children which is bad. This is poverty. Poverty teaches you to become corrupt and forces you to live in filth. A hungry man cannot care for his preserving his heritage if his stomach is not full.

***************
What I wanted to say that India's situation is complicated. The solution you are giving is naive. The examples you are giving are not in order. We are facing the problems of Casteism, illiteracy, pressures of different ethnic groups, funds unavailability for spurring growth etc. ... and our democracy doesn't allow us to steal technologies so easily, to supply inferior goods so easily to those countries ... on the other hand, we are facing immature and corrupt political system which thrives more on dividing and ruling as British did than doing really good for the masses. We have laggard and inefficient judiciary and Police system that we inherited from the British empire.

We need massive electoral reforms and other reforms. We need to be lucky so that a good party wins election and stays in power for at least a decade or so. As the economic prosperity comes, all evils which have arisen due to poverty will slowly go away.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 10:08 AM
Namaste Devotee,

For someone so advanced in spiritual understanding you havent learned to control your emotions. I havent seen poverty, in fact I have worked with poverty in India, I dedicated years of my life raising funds to help India at the expense of my own circumstances. I could tell you some things that would make you weep, both in my own personal upbringing and from what I have seen and grown up in and around, but there is always people worse off than me, I guess thats why I dedicated most of my prime life in helping people, both in India and Africa, when was the last time most middle class people who purport all this propaganda ever given any need to the poor in India. But I am not here to argue who is best, but merely to say stop blaming outside influence, Its like if us British kept blaming the Romans, Saxons French, but most of us have grown up a long time ago, every country has its history and dark patches too, I doubt many know the full facts of British History let alone European history. I didnt say all India is dirty thats your lack of honesty and emotional control, I am just being objective and I am relaxed, and I dont associate myself as being British, I will leave you to do that. I have more Indian friends who are like family and have said and listen to them say the same thing as what I am saying, but in real life it comes across better. Ask any man in the street what the problem is in India.

devotee
29 September 2015, 10:38 AM
Namaste Markandeya,



For someone so advanced in spiritual understanding you havent learned to control your emotions. I havent seen poverty, in fact I have worked with poverty in India, I dedicated years of my life raising funds to help India at the expense of my own circumstances. I could tell you some things that would make you weep, both in my own personal upbringing and from what I have seen and grown up in and around, but there is always people worse off than me, I guess thats why I dedicated most of my prime life in helping people, both in India and Africa, when was the last time most middle class people who purport all this propaganda ever given any need to the poor in India. But I am not here to argue who is best, but merely to say stop blaming outside influence, Its like if us British kept blaming the Romans, Saxons French, but most of us have grown up a long time ago, every country has its history and dark patches too, I doubt many know the full facts of British History let alone European history. I didnt say all India is dirty thats your lack of honesty and emotional control, I am just being objective and I am relaxed, and I dont associate myself as being British, I will leave you to do that. I have more Indian friends who are like family and have said and listen to them say the same thing as what I am saying, but in real life it comes across better. Ask any man in the street what the problem is in India.

You are relaxed and I can't control my emotions. Right ?

You don't see anything wrong in whatever you wrote ? Did you read what I wrote about the ills and the remedies ? When did you find me saying that anyone else but Indians do have to work for themselves ? ... and for your help in alleviating poverty in India ... thank you very much. But it doesn't say high of you when you don't understand India in spite of all the time you spent in India. How can you compare China's situation with that of India's ? That shows that you are not aware of the reality of the ground situation.

Just because you have worked in India doesn't mean that you understand the nuances behind its poverty and its difficulties. You don't become an expert by just doing some humanitarian work. I also keep donating for the poor and yes, that includes people of other poor countries too. But I don't go to those countrymen and tell them that I know what ails their country and blame them for everything whatever is wrong there in their country. .... and then tell them how much relaxed I am.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 11:00 AM
Namaste Devotee,

I didnt say you have to compare the situation of India and China, I did say you cant carbon copy, and I said India can learn some things from China, there is a difference. You stuck in your view which doesn't reflect what I am saying or my experience. That I cant and have no interest in changing.

Why do you keep centering yourself around this whole discussion, as I said if you would read "these are general comments and others can fill in the details"

i should have known better than to engage in a discussion with God himself :)

Yu kept blaming me as a British person for all the atrocities of India, considering I was born in 1970 doesnt really make sense. But I will lay down a challenge, get your top lawyer in India to take me to court and lets see if he wins. My work in India was not just humanitarian, and it wasnt about giving lose change that I could afford to any project that ultimately was to help others more than myself. Your gonna have to back down right from your initial post and many others where you take the superior role. Ok I am not Indian, why on earth would I want to be, there is something much more profound than becoming Indian or any worldly identity, but it doesn't mean I cant understand things just because it doesn't fit into your view. My point is simple, stop blaming outside influence, it will further spurn the hidden corruption that poor people are still the victims at the hands of evil and corrupt leaders of India, and that was even before Islam Invaded. If there is honesty facing up to anyone's own history then I would consider them as a man of integrity fit to comment. I hate what the British have done, the ones who have caused suffering to others are demoniac, and the Indians that exploit and and keep others in poverty under horrendous conditions are also demons, and this goes to some of the people who run temples amass wealth and give nothing back. Obviously some Indians are going to react what I am saying, but so be it, I care not. But what I do care about more than one single nation is that people have personal integrity and honesty, even if it means getting a bit of dirt on their faces, including me.

I will add another fact, India is not known now for its great Spiritual culture, even western Neo Advaitins want to distance themself from Indian culture, simple because there is so much shame involved due to caste systems and other things and recently India has been claimed to be the most racist country in the world. Do you think people who aspire the way of Sadhu's will want to identify to strongly with contemporary India. Attachment breeds contempt.

devotee
29 September 2015, 11:18 AM
Dear Markandeya,

I still feel, you could have said things in some better chosen words. Anyway, it doesn't seem you see anything wrong in how you said everything in this thread. May be I am wrong.

Let's put a full stop to this discussion ... at least from my side.

BTW, if you see me as God and you see yourself as a human being and not as God .... then there is mistake of point of reference. ... but that we can discuss some other time. :)

Sorry, if anything I said, hurt you. :(

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
29 September 2015, 12:01 PM
Namaste Devotee jI,

Nothing you have said has hurt me, and I have said many times I would love to see India in its glory. I am still basing most of my observations of seeing how India has changed over the last 25 years. I don't see things have improved, especially around the Holy places, yes some mod cons and some of the cities in certain areas look more presentable, but I cant say with any confidence that it has got any better. Its way past the time to keep digging up history and blaming others. It seems you took offence about the passing in the street, but its a fact, and discipline is a problem in India, and that was in reference to China and how they adapt an organised society with a larger population, something can be learned from outside structures, not copied but learned, that was my point. And it seems Modi and India have recognized this also with the links I posted above.

I am not saying people are to blame, but lack of good investment in education is part of it. Once any country learns that a fully healthy society is to invest in its own people then any country can make great advancements, but most countries are about exploitation rather than cultivation. While I would have loved to see how India would have progressed if Nalanda university was not destroyed totally and solely by the Turks, but there are accounts that the Sramanas played a role and also according to some sources sectarian battles between Hinayanist and Mahayanist. What is the exact truth only God knows, as history is so perverted and twisted its almost becoming impossible to be fully objective, apart from obvious facts, and having a interest in History the main thing I have learned is that there is not one reliable source, and even if that source is fairly reliable it still holds bias. I recently read a book on Hsuan-tsang journey to India to find the real teachings of Buddha, which was not known as Buddhism but Dharma Shastra, which were wide and varied and covered all aspect of learning and knowledge. He paints a great picture of India and spoke mostly how the Brahmins and Buddhist of the time lived well together and integrated their ideals and understanding, but they also kept their distance and some parts were not recorded due to sectarian tension which he said was not described due to not being of benefit for future reading. So while India was great spiritually and materially it also had problems, but the problems are always it seems nowadays coming solely from outside influence, I think it doesnt help, and to project an ideal of the past does not always suit the present.

I was being sarcastic about the God thing, yes I am simultaneously human and not human at the same time, through Prakriti I will understand the absolute truth, not by imagination.

devotee
29 September 2015, 06:29 PM
I will add another fact, India is not known now for its great Spiritual culture, even western Neo Advaitins want to distance themself from Indian culture, simple because there is so much shame involved due to caste systems and other things and recently India has been claimed to be the most racist country in the world. Do you think people who aspire the way of Sadhu's will want to identify to strongly with contemporary India. Attachment breeds contempt.

You could have done better if you had not vomited this poison against India and Indians. You have lost my respect.

OM

devotee
29 September 2015, 09:22 PM
Namaste Markandeya,

I am disappointed with your so demeaning statements against us Indians. This can be said about any country and any race by taking stray examples. India is not only internet-active-group of Indians. Never make a mistake of making strong opinion about any country or ethnic race by taking small samples of some groups. Indians have no time to keep blaming British for all its faults. However, once the discussion starts, all these things which are the fact, have to come to surface.

You have blamed Indians for all its faults. My dear friend, a human being born in USA / UK or India have same basic traits. They don't become as they are just because they are Indians or British. There are social, economical and political reasons behind what they become. The bad habits of Indians and corruption, casteism etc. that you mentioned do exist in India. However, you have to go deeper to understand why it is there in first place. Your remedies, "Be disciplined", "Become honest" ... are too simplistic. If these maladies were in your country, even your countrymen could not have done anything with these remedies.

How many in India have time to blame British for their ills ? I can understand your problem because I have worked with NGOs of the western countries in Afghanistan and I know what superiority complex they carry for nothing, though I did get many good westerner friends while working there. I think you carry a lot of superiority complex due to your place of birth. ... and that makes me wonder, why did you choose NGO working for poor ? You could have done better in some other fields.

If you really don't understand why these maladies are there or how they arise in any society, tell me. I will certainly explain to you in details how this all works.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
30 September 2015, 02:40 AM
Namaste Devotee,

Who said I worked for NGO's, I was a Brahmacari doing seva in India. Ok India is not corrupt. Everyone is a Sadhu, there isnt any problem. There is no corruption in Bihar state and Dalits are treated as equal citizens. I was really impressed that in Holy Dhams such as Vrndavan, Puri that the government is maintaining the holy sites with reverence and giving it the due respect that the ancient civilization deserves. Ganga Ma is as pure as it was 5000 years ago, and Cow killing and dumping toxic waste into Her is non existent.

I did Char Dham yatra this year, 2 years after the devastation. Go and talk to the locals about pilgrims and investors that have destroyed the environment up there. Do some research how much of mess that area became before the devastation. Ask the question why when the devastation happened that non of the main temples were damaged, even a rock fell to protect the mandir at Kedanatha, go and talk with the locals, how they feel that their living space was turned into a tourist industry and how that amazing area was used a dumping site for litter and the devastation was cleaning act of Shiva. Thats what they think. And how they say the Government did nothing to preserve their culture and way of life. This is what Indian people say them selves I am just repeating their comments. Why is it that so many states in India want to be independent from central government. I guess thats my opinion too. This is thread to discuss why India still has the demoniac levels of poverty that still exist today, and it doesn't have everything to do with foreign influence. And for all the profits that the government make do they fairly invest them back into mainstream. India is not a poor country, its certainly crippled after the British and Islamic, but the next undenying fact which still exists today is mass hoarding of wealth by corruption, which is probably having and had just as much devastating effect.


Go and talk with Sadhus in Haridwar where there was an ancient rule that Muslims were only allowed to visit in the day to trade, but the government does not hold or preserve the same rights for the Dham and Hindus and Muslims can take residence there, not protecting an ancient religious right.

I don't blame the average person in India, in fact the majority of Indian people are good and just have to suffer again due to demoniac leaders in power and the most twisted forms of bureaucracy which is based solely on corruption and deception.

To be honest I have had a very braod experience in India, I seen and experienced and witnessed and joined in coversations on so many levels, I have had prasadam with Raj of Jaipur, been invited to the government residence of Manipur, and also had the pleasure of meeting the main diplomat local of Manipur, I know many things about how the government does not respect the culture and human rights of people. I have sat and shared food with Dalits in Bihar who not even given enough basic human necessities, and how government officials have pocketed massive sums of money that should have been used to build roads schools and hospitals, because the poor people just dont matter.

Go to Gujarat and Sikhim and ask how the government totally destroyed their agriculture way of life, what about the GMO disaster for the farmers,that was everyone else's fault to, people being kicked mercilessly off their lands so factories can be built. If anything I would be talking about and giving a voice to the people who have no voice, who are not even treated as humans by their own people.

Weather you have respect for my comments or me is immaterial.

BTW if I was to talk about the British colonial rule I am worse, it was a total demoniac rule, not just in India but where ever they went, what they did in Africa and America, how Burma is still in a state of ruination to this day because of the divide they caused. The list just goes on how demoniac that rule that was, and how it destroyed the natural equilibrium of ancient Britain which the cause was also foreign invasion.

I will just one more thing, look at Bollywood and the amount of wealth it has created, giving those people this high line of material opulence, turn the corner and you will see children and people who have been forced into the city due to neglect of agriculture dynamic of India and have to face pure and disgusting levels of poverty. Are the rich helping, talk to them, if they had there way they would just kill them off given half the chance, their is very little empathy by the rich for the desperate poor people.

http://www.poverties.org/poverty-in-india.html

devotee
30 September 2015, 05:48 AM
Namaste Markandeya,

Please stop saying, "Go here and ask there" ... I am a native Indian. You are talking as if I am a foreigner to my own country ! I have not only traveled to different parts of India ... I have stayed in different parts of India for years together.

The problems are there. Who said that problems are not there ? However, is this what you should say :


will add another fact, India is not known now for its great Spiritual culture, even western Neo Advaitins want to distance themself from Indian culture, simple because there is so much shame involved due to caste systems and other things and recently India has been claimed to be the most racist country in the world. Do you think people who aspire the way of Sadhu's will want to identify to strongly with contemporary India. Attachment breeds contempt.

You are making sweeping remarks : "India is not known for its spiritual culture ... Neo Advaitins want to distance themselves from Indian culture .... India has been claimed to be most racist country ..."

Is this the way you strike a cordial relation with an Indian whom you want to help ? You say that you are a SAdhu. I don't expect a Sadhu to make such sweeping and demeaning remarks against the whole country.

And you are comparing this country with China and Japan who were never enslaved ? Yes, there is dirtiness in my country. Many politicians and bureaucrats are corrupt. But do you think that we enjoy keeping ourselves dirty ? Just because we are not disciplined ? This is what you want to say ? Do you think that India was like this all along ? Why do you think India became what it is today and why England became what it is today ?

India has made a lot of steady progress and in the course of time, we will overcome other issues too as you have mentioned :

a) I was born in 1960. I have seen the drought and deaths when I was a child. India is now self sufficient in food grains.
b) The caste discrimination which prevailed during 1960-70 is no longer seen today. There are strong laws to deal with any discrimination based on caste. Yes, in this vast country, some isolated incidents keep happening which will also be eliminated once we are able to implement Judicial and Police reforms. In fact, now this country is facing reverse discrimination against so-called forward castes as their representation in Govt Jobs and colleges are dropping drastically.
c) Corruption has been controlled to a great extent in last a few years ... thanks to RTI and Lokpal Bill. However, unless the people are educated, they won't be able to assert their rights and corruption in some form cannot be eliminated till then. We need heavy investment in education to ensure that.
d) Filth and dirt in India is not just because of indiscipline. I have been actively involved in Modiji's cleanliness drives with volunteers of more than 600 people with me at different times. However, unless there are enough funds and investments in disposal of solid waste / sewerage system, it cannot be tackled. It needs thousands of Crores of rupees.
e) Regarding cleaning the Ganges - This is related with treatment plants of waste and sewer water ... disposal of solid waste system and relocating industries based on the sides of this river. It is not due to corruption or indiscipline alone. It cannot be done unless huge sum of money is invested in solid disposal system and relocating the industries. However, already steps have been taken to do just that. Laws are being made to punish the people who carelessly throw garbage into this river.
f) Devastation in Uttarakhand in Kedarnath and adjoining areas --- You keep learning from new experiences. Who knew that this would happen ? Moreover, in Uttarakhand, the government is of the people of hills. They know the nature of hills much better than any average India living in planes. It was their duty to take care that indiscriminate commercial exploitation of the place is not allowed.
g) Regarding discrimination against Hindu places of worship --- This bane hurts all the Hindus. However, slowly the Hindus are raising voice ... that thankfully, includes your voice too. Unless we are united such discrimination will be there because here the vote bank politics exists. Due their apathy towards Hindu cause, the Congress has been routed in the last elections. Moreover, we should not depend upon government only for all our problems. Hindus must realise why their places of worship are dirty and not well maintained. Government has taken care in Vaishno Devi, Tirupati shrines and these places are much better administered. The government must slowly abolish Panda system which is the root cause behind total mismanagement of important religious places.

I can write pages after pages what ails this country and how to set it right and what has been done till now. Rest assured. We are making progress in the right direction. The reason behind most of the problems is poverty ... it is the mother of most of the problems we are facing today. I am hopeful that I will be able to see India in a respectable position within my lifetime.

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
30 September 2015, 09:04 AM
Namaste Devotee

Enough is enough, you missed the point, I only said once that in India and not China people pass in the street where they stand, and put in down to people not being disciplined or educated, and then put that down to corruption in your country, when usually to many people seem more comfortable blaming everyone else, but when just a slight critical comment comes your way its an obscene offence, its you who keeps repeating dirty again and again. No China was never enslaved, never had a problem ever, I suppose they all enjoyed just being stoned on opium, and losing millions in the cultural revolution, but they recovered and it will get stronger and would be stronger if not for economic warfare by the west. in fact no other country in the world knows any pain other than India. All I stated was at the start that India could learn something from China, it went ok as I was going to explain more, but then you came in and said I know nothing ( as usual) and only you know it all, so I retract everything I said as imagination and lets just listen to you and how India was great in the times of Maharaja Parikshit. You just love tit for tat. Anyway the last website I posted just about says it all. You tried to defame me, thats normal, seen it many times from people like you, but let the facts deal with themselves. Maybe I know India better than you because I dont associate myself with any country.
Hare Krsna

Where did I say I was a Sadhu :)

If you like a I can post the report about how India is known as the most racist country, you want to come into the modern world, long way to go Ji. Indians abroad are a shining example of the culture and success, the good people want out and the demoniac just want to exploit fill their pockets and blame outside influence for its current state of affairs.

devotee
30 September 2015, 09:51 AM
This is what your culture has taught, Markandeya ? Please read your posts and my posts carefully if you have any sense of a civilised person.

Good bye !

OM

markandeya 108 dasa
30 September 2015, 11:32 AM
Namaste Devotee

My culture, your culture, not once did I personally insult you, and apparently I am the one who has a superiority complex :)

Seeker
08 October 2015, 12:58 AM
Namaste

There is an opinion that India (as a single nation ) never existed before Britishers united us under one flag. Few political outfits down south too voice this thought to get votes every five years. The chief of one such political outfit while in office as CM even wondered whether Sri Raama Chandra Prabhu ever lived on this earth? Keeping such intellectually motivating scientific derivation away from the scope of this discussion can members share their wisdom with me on the question I have raised?

I hope Indians too will share their opinion

Thanks ...
Namaste Anirudh Ji.

No & No. India was very rich before foreign invasion. So much so that europeans were clamoring to find a sea route that they ended up finding a new continent , called the natives 'Indians' and plundered the new land.

India before invasions was never a united nation in the way the word 'nation' is interpretted.

It is difficult to define the concepts behind India in terms used by Europeans. "Nation" is a European concept of political division. Usually Europe was governed by groups that were similar based on language (French , English, Spanish) or language/ religion combinations (Germany, Austria). European nations like Switzerland are an exception to this.

In the middle east & Africa , it was mostly tribal alliances. Arab speaking nations were divided into multiple nations by Europeans after the world war & oil discovery. Concept of nation was imposed on Africa & South America , based on colonial territories held. In each of these cases , heterogeneous communities could not get along and this led to nation states.

Bharat varsha is very unique in the world w.r.t to the tolerance to people of different views and faiths. This is true to this date. By and large Hindus accepted Jains , Buddhists , atheists , Christians etc.. There was never a sustained inquisitions , pogrom's or jihads carried out by the state on people with differing cultural practice. Mohammadism was opposed mainly due to the brutality and violence that accompanied by its adherents.

What defines India as a cohesive group is adherence to Hinduism and resulting tolerance.
This will be the case even going forward. This is where India will be unique and thrive into the future, while balkans , USSR or even Canada - think of french canada - fail. We have to thank our Rishi's & Vedas for imbibing "ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti" as part of our culture.

If we go by the current European notion of "nation" , India was always an aggregate of different nations . Every now and then , some dynasties (Mauryas, Magadhs , Guptas , Mughals etc..) asserted dominance and made other nations vassals. During those brief periods , the empires resembled the present day India.

ajay
11 May 2016, 05:01 AM
Namaste,



This is not true. The map at the time of Chandragupta Maurya shows that India he ruled included even today's Nepal, Burma, Bangladesh, P:akistan and Afghanistan. Yes, sometimes when the ruler was weak, many kings used to declare their independence which was a norm at that time. In fact, this situation was there even when Ashoka ascended to the throne.

India started getting weaker when Buddhism was adopted as state policy by Ashoka and the money which could have been used for technological advancement and scientific research was spent on spreading the message of Buddha. As the centre was no longer that strong, it led to disintegration of states and made India easy prey to Islamic invaders.

OM

Yes, this is correct. Along with Chandragupta Maurya and Ashoka, I would also add Samudragupta and Chandragupta II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_II) as emperors who exerted sovereignty over much of the Indian subcontinent.

However I would say that the main reason for the disintegration of the Indian empire was due to the ban on sea travel by some Brahmins with the threat of outcasting. The motive of this ban was to prevent Indians from connecting with the neighbouring buddhist nations. This prevented Indians from accessing the latest technology and scientific research that was coming up in other foreign countries, and hence they stagnated and regressed.

This was a major reason for the victories of the Islamic invaders who assimilated the latest military technology and tactics where-ever they could find them. When Babar fought with Rana Sanga , the former fought with cannons and guns while the latter fought with mere bow and arrows and javelins.

An another reason was that Islamic invaders were united under a single banner while the Indians on the other hands were divided into many castes, many of which did not bear arms because of outdated scriptural injunctions prohibiting it. If a united front was put up by the Hindus regardless of caste, the islamic invasions would have never happened.

rakovsky
07 October 2016, 10:24 PM
Namaste,

The OP is complete nonsense. Please get your hands on the book called Asia and western dominance by K.M. panikkar. He explains how indian economy was more than 24% of the world GDP before the invasions began in 1400s where as England, Germany, France combined GDP was 6%.

I have the pdf version of the book. Email or pm me if you want it. It is available on the Internet under free licence.
Namaste, Satay!
I found your information to be impressive and interesting. It makes sense that India was so prosperous that this is why so many nations wanted to conquer or dominate it like you said.

One thing that attracted me was this. Notice the situation in 2500 BC based on archaeology. What civilizations are more impressive than Egypt, India, and Sumer in that ancient time? I can't think of any. China did not really become a civilization until 2100 BC or so. Minoa was small. I think India is very impressive then, like you said.

Peace.