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yajvan
11 May 2007, 12:05 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste pramodi ( one who sees all good things)


It is said that the SELF can be realized via prapatti (complete surrender) to Isvara - this is pointed out in the Yoga sutras of Patanjali-muni. - Chapt 2, on practice, Isvara-pranidhana.

One can realize the SELF, and it is pointed out that the SELF realizes it SELF by its SELF - Katha and Mundaka Upanishad

It is also said that one breaks the final knot in the heart (hrdayagranthi), some call this mula-mala or the root impurity, by His grace, or prasada, a gift from HIM. And who is there to assist the sadhu on this? Sanatkumara , also known as Skanda - Chandogya Upanishad.

All these wonderful ways still may need some help in defining and un-complicating what this SELF is, which we talk so much about.

The rishi's, muni's, guru's , panditji, swami's, etc. are all giving insight and instruction to this unfoldment, that one may, in the final analysis think that this SELF is a very complicated matter. This is not the case. It is very simple, yet our minds make simple obtuse at times.

Perhaps if you are interested in engaging in this conversation, we can take a look at un-cluttering this most simple SELF.

Fundamentally SELF = I. This I, is fundamentally consciousness. That too may be a little obtuse, so lets call it awareness. Being aware is this core value that is inside of all of us - even our animal kingdom friends are blessed with this awareness and anyone with a pet can attest to this.

Lets keep it simple
We can be aware of things: music, driving, talking, etc. That is, we can point this awareness in the outer world or inner world ( our thought process). We can even be aware of thinking about thinking. That is how flexible this awareness is. Yet awareness all by itself, lets call it pure awareness, is the home of , and is , this I. It is this state of pure awareness that is the home of the SELF.

When this pure awareness is the normal functioning in one's everyday life, that is we are established in, reside in, and are in this pure awareness at all times, it is being established in the SELF, called Self-referral.
Patanjali may call this stopping the fluxuations of the mind and one can read this in chapt 1 of his works, Patanjala Yogadarsana.

Without the clutter of all the thoughts, reactions, impressions that compel us to act more, this pure awareness is undisturbed by the clutter. It is the SELF, the I, without action attached to it. Simple awareness, just simple. Without boundaries. It is considered infinite in nature, that is why some refer it to chit-akasha. Consciousness without bounds.

Complications
So, where does the complication come in? We tend to bind this "I" to things that we do. That is we take the unbounded and bind it (connect it, tie it, couple it) to things we do - to our actions. This is the bondage the muni's discuss.

Lets take a look at this. When one says "I am here" or " I am going to the store" - we combine something that is purely subjective, that is this "I" with something that is external, bound, an action that is distinct in time, space and cause. This connection/binding of "I" with objects , even of the body we use, is the binding influence, the attachment, the bondage the wise talk of. This is such a key point , we need to poke more at this.

I am tall, I am short, I am a lawyer, I am a teacher… all these ideas transfer these short term qualities to the atman, the "I" in you. This "I", this SELF, this atman is boundless, infinite, without bounds, yet we bind IT with time, cause, size and appearance. This is the bondage - the binding of an objective quality with the subjective, infinite, quality-less 4th (turiya) of Being ( I).

Re-enforcement
We do this everyday and re-enforce it over and over in conversations we have, the work we do e.g. And what do you do?, where are you going?, what do you want to buy, what will you do for vacation?
The response - I am a mechanic; I think I will go shopping; I think I will go to Madras for vacation. All this continues to tightly couple this "I" to all that is transitory, temporary. This "I" is purely subjective and out of bounds to all things that are relative - our daily actions.

You can not think your way out of this
Why so? The mind too is relative and connected to the senses… the senses serve up the environment of objects. The mind ponders them, and is within the relative field of life - ideas, thoughts, all these, are still objects, some gross, some subtle ( feelings) but still bound by space, time, and cause. One can remind oneself niti-niti , I am not this. Not what ? This attachment of "I" to things. This is one possible approach takes much discipline. Yet what can one do?

Looking for More.
This I =SELF= Purusha. This purusha is puri or city ( our body) that houses this "I" this atman. One needs to experrience their core SELF. That is, become familiar with this SELF. This is the purpose of meditation.

What is one of the first things one does in meditation? Shut their eyes. Why so? To turn off one input that stimulates the senses to engage outside of ones SELF.
The eyes play a key role. The eyes, ears, tongue , and hearing are looking for more enjoyment, more happiness. This is a natural thing. Even as you read this post, if someone is baking cookies in the kitchen, the nose will pick up the smell of the cookies and delivers it to the mind… one may stop reading and go into the kitchen for look-see or smell. Of if some music comes on the radio that one likes, the ears will draw one to the pleasant sounds. Like that ,we are wired for more happiness, expansion, etc.

If we can take this natural phenomenon of the expansion of more happiness and direct it inward, then one will find more then the most… this is called technique. The SELF which is infinite in nature is sat-chit-ananda. The mind comes to rest here, and stays seated in the SELF. Why? Beause this level of awareness is unbounded. My teacher says its like the feeling of coming home. Comfort, established in the infinite SELF, we come to rest , this restful alertness now becomes our nature.

To this one becomes established in this SELF, this "I", Moksha. Moksha is liberation, yes? What is one liberated from? Being tied or coupled/identified to the field of action ( the 3 guna) which we are not.

We are infinite in nature, we're this Purusha and we become atma-jnanin or knowing the SELF, and jnana-svarupa filled with and expanded to the living knowledge (Being) of the SELF.

This is the technique of meditation - and as you know there are all kinds one can consider. I wish you well in hopes that your journey, the yajya of discovering the simpliest most delicate level of consciousness - the SELF is realized.

pranams

yajvan
12 May 2007, 11:07 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

HDF members.... please provide guidence for me on these types of posts e.g. the SELF, Purusua, Atman, etc.

Help me gauge if the topics are too light, too heavy, too esoteric, requires more-or-less explaination, or if this is just about right. This will allow me to gauge net worth to the reader.

What is my intent? To offer different views on topics that may stimulate an idea, conversation , etc. that may take one to a deeper understanding [including me] of some key philosophical principles on this SELF, this Brahman that is so near and dear.

In this case, when I use the world 'philosophical' it's used it in its most valued form ' the love of wisdom' i.e. philos = friend, or lover + sophia=wisdom.

Let me know your thoughts... too much, too little, just right, etc.

pranams,

satay
17 August 2007, 01:57 PM
Namaskar!

Yajvan I apologize for trolling this thread earlier.

I think that a bunch of us got all wound up with nirotu's post and his usage of the word 'opium' that we ended up derailing what could have been a great discussion.

After many days and I have come back to this thread to clean it up. I have moved the other posts out of this thread so that all members including nirotu can start a fresh discussion here.

yajvan
13 October 2007, 12:41 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


One can realize the SELF, and it is pointed out that the SELF realizes it SELF by its SELF - Katha and Mundaka Upanishad


The rishi's, muni's, guru's , panditji, swami's, etc. are all giving insight and
Fundamentally SELF = I. This I, is fundamentally consciousness. That too may be a little obtuse, so lets call it awareness. Being aware is this core value that is inside of all of us - even our animal kingdom friends are blessed with this awareness and anyone with a pet can attest to this.

Lets keep it simple
We can be aware of things: music, driving, talking, etc. That is, we can point this awareness in the outer world or inner world ( our thought process). We can even be aware of thinking about thinking. That is how flexible this awareness is. Yet awareness all by itself, lets call it pure awareness, is the home of , and is , this I. It is this state of pure awareness that is the home of the SELF.
You can not think your way out of this
Why so? The mind too is relative and connected to the senses… the senses serve up the environment of objects. The mind ponders them, and is within the relative field of life - ideas, thoughts, all these, are still objects, some gross, some subtle ( feelings) but still bound by space, time, and cause. One can remind oneself niti-niti , I am not this. Not what ? This attachment of "I" to things. This is one possible approach takes much discipline. Yet what can one do?

Looking for More.
This I =SELF= Purusha. This purusha is puri or city ( our body) that houses this "I" this atman. One needs to experrience their core SELF. That is, become familiar with this SELF. This is the purpose of meditation.


Namaste ,
I was just pondering the notion of recognizing "I". One could think - let me inspect myself. Let me see, here are some emotions, here is some thinking, oh and here is this feeling , this thing I think is me, this "I".

If this is the exercise one takes, one did not find I (Aham). Why so? Because the analysis, the inspection is done with awareness yes? It is that awareness that one is using for inspection, that is the pure I. IT by ITself, without application, in essence is Aham, the SELF, pure "I".

How does Patanjali-muni describe this? In Chapt 2, of his Sutras, called Sadhana Pada, there is one stitch, sutra 17 that says the following:

Chapt II sutra 17 - drastr-drsyayoh samyogo heya-hetuh

The seer (drastir) or Purusa identifies (samyogah) in relative association with another object (drsyayoh) and/or the observer, oneSELF is identified as an object also.

This association of the seer-and-seen, the pure subject Purusa and the object (prakriti - some call pradhana) is hetu, the cause/reason of this circumstance and is to be avoided , or heya ( anything fit to be abandoned).

So because of proximity of the intellect to the SELF/Purusa , become co-mingled.

This is why one cannot think their way out of ignorance... we continue to re-enforce the connection between Purusa and the analytical tool Intellect. There is such a close relation between the two, that one can confuse the intellect for purusa.

In fact, there is a sutra/siddhi that patanjali offers - the distinction between intellect (buddhi) and Purusa, to help show this discrimination. This he says is the 'clear and distinct discriminative knoweldge is the means of liberation. That is, viveka that is unimpaired will indicate the distinction between Purusa and Buddhi.

When this Ahhhh-ha happens, then 7 kinds of ultimate insights come to the yogin who has acquired this discriminative knowledge [viveka-khyatir].
What is this viveka ? It is the knowledge and experience that one sees/experiences the SELF, residing in the SELF, as different and independent of all the activities of the world..of wake, dream and sleep states.

Sometimes you will hear someone say, I was witnessing myself, ( small self) - "I" was watching me do things, yet I was inside, as a silent witness to these actions. This is the experience, in the beginning states.

IF there is interest in this, we can continue, and list out the 7 insights, and their implications. Thus, this conversation is subtle, as it takes apart how we perceive. It perhaps may attract those that are doing sadhana and will resinate with them.


“It's not what we don't know that hurts us, it's what we know for certain that just ain't so.” Mark Twain

Eastern Mind
13 October 2007, 01:16 PM
Yajvan: Have you read Subramuniyaswami's "The Self God" short talk. I think that sums it up. Aum Namasivaya

vcindiana
13 October 2007, 10:48 PM
Error

yajvan
14 October 2007, 12:24 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Yajvan: Have you read Subramuniyaswami's "The Self God" short talk. I think that sums it up. Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,
no I have not read this... I am fortunate to have several of his other writings e.g. Siva and Ganesha, etc. and for years the magizine offered Hinduism Today.

Is this a public/web document I can read? always looking for another view.

pranams,