PDA

View Full Version : Level of Heavens- relative.



Atman
11 May 2007, 06:59 PM
As most Vaisnavans know- lord Visnu's heaven- aka Vaikuntha, is said to be the ultimate level of bliss, knowledge and eternity. All other heavens are said to resemble a hell- (naraka)
Does this also include Lord Brahma's Satyoloka and the Brahmapuri- including the Sadashivaloka?:eek: In going beyond Vaikuntha, Lord Shiva says 100 births of lord Brahma before his realm, then 1000 births of his realm before becoming a Vaisnava. Is Lord Shiva's lifespan the same 311 trillion 40 billion years like Brahma?
Is there an easier way to get to Visnu's heaven, and this would be the equavalent of the Garden of Eden- Paradise.:D

Arvind Sivaraman
11 May 2007, 11:19 PM
As most Vaisnavans know- lord Visnu's heaven- aka Vaikuntha, is said to be the ultimate level of bliss, knowledge and eternity. All other heavens are said to resemble a hell- (naraka)
Does this also include Lord Brahma's Satyoloka and the Brahmapuri- including the Sadashivaloka?:eek: In going beyond Vaikuntha, Lord Shiva says 100 births of lord Brahma before his realm, then 1000 births of his realm before becoming a Vaisnava. Is Lord Shiva's lifespan the same 311 trillion 40 billion years like Brahma?
Is there an easier way to get to Visnu's heaven, and this would be the equavalent of the Garden of Eden- Paradise.:D

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste.
The simple rememberance of Lord Rama's name is enough to cross the ocean of samsara.Particulary in Kali Yuga.
Saint Ramadas did penance and recited Lord Rama's name about 3 crore times.
Saint Thyagaraja got initiated from HIS Guru and repeated the Rama Shadakshari mantra 96 crore times.The Rama Shadakshari mantra is "Ram Ramaya Namaha".
Shri Shirdi Sai Baba had recommended to one of HIS devotees the repitition of "Rajarama" mantra and assured that this repitition would lead to spiritual progress and ultimately to moksha.
Lord Rama HIMSELF has mentioned to Lord Shiva in Varanasi that if people repeat his (Lord Rama's) name in the ears ,after a person dies will get salvation.

Agnideva
12 May 2007, 12:39 AM
Namaste Atman,

Welcome to HDF :)


As most Vaisnavans know- lord Visnu's heaven- aka Vaikuntha, is said to be the ultimate level of bliss, knowledge and eternity. All other heavens are said to resemble a hell- (naraka)
Does this also include Lord Brahma's Satyoloka and the Brahmapuri- including the Sadashivaloka?:eek:
I don't know too awful much about Vaishnava theology, but Vaikuntha is said to be beyond the "seven oceans" ~ the seven oceans being the seven higher worlds of existence - bhuloka, bhuvaloka, svarloka, maharloka, janaloka, tapaloka, and satyaloka (aka Brahmaloka). So, yes, Vaikuntha is beyond the Brahmaloka, and everything from Brahma down is pervaded by Narayana.

I do not know anything about a Sadashivaloka. Is this from the Srimad Bhagavatam?


Is Lord Shiva's lifespan the same 311 trillion 40 billion years like Brahma? In Vaishnavism (by Vaishnavism I mean the Bhagavatam), I believe the answer is yes. Vaishnavism, in general, sees Shiva not as the Lord, but as the ideal devotee of Vishnu (Parama-Vaishnava). According to the Bhagavatam, Rudra was born out of the forehead of Brahma (somewhat like Athena was born from the forehead of Zeus), so like all Devas, Rudra would be bound by time. This is, however, contrary to Shaivism where Shiva is the Supreme Absolute and not an embodied being, and so in that sense not bound by space, time or lifespan.

OM Shanti,
A.

Atman
12 May 2007, 06:19 AM
Namaste Atman,

Welcome to HDF :)


I don't know too awful much about Vaishnava theology, but Vaikuntha is said to be beyond the "seven oceans" ~ the seven oceans being the seven higher worlds of existence - bhuloka, bhuvaloka, svarloka, maharloka, janaloka, tapaloka, and satyaloka (aka Brahmaloka). So, yes, Vaikuntha is beyond the Brahmaloka, and everything from Brahma down is pervaded by Narayana.

I do not know anything about a Sadashivaloka. Is this from the Srimad Bhagavatam?

In Vaishnavism (by Vaishnavism I mean the Bhagavatam), I believe the answer is yes. Vaishnavism, in general, sees Shiva not as the Lord, but as the ideal devotee of Vishnu (Parama-Vaishnava). According to the Bhagavatam, Rudra was born out of the forehead of Brahma (somewhat like Athena was born from the forehead of Zeus), so like all Devas, Rudra would be bound by time. This is, however, contrary to Shaivism where Shiva is the Supreme Absolute and not an embodied being, and so in that sense not bound by space, time or lifespan.

OM Shanti,
A.

Sadashiva-loka is lord Shiva's and Parvatis's realm- described as the marginal potency. In Brahma Samita- his realm is said to the marginal potency between material and spiritual worlds. So it is technically higher than Satyaloka- being non material, so I would imagine the level of happiness would be greater.
Also- interesting, in the Yoga Vaihsista- worlds beyond the minds- it is said the 7th stage is indescribable in worlds- and is the stage of Brahma's and Shiva's samadhi. So even this stage would also be considered hellish to the spiritual nitya siddha in Vaikuntha- so therefore must be millions of times happier and greater in wealth to be beyond the comprehension of the great mahatmas like Shiva and Brahma- whose comprehensions are far beyond the human mind and speech.;)

atanu
12 May 2007, 08:39 AM
Namaste Atman,

Welcome to HDF :)


I don't know too awful much about Vaishnava theology, but Vaikuntha is said to be beyond the "seven oceans" ~ the seven oceans being the seven higher worlds of existence - bhuloka, bhuvaloka, svarloka, maharloka, janaloka, tapaloka, and satyaloka (aka Brahmaloka). So, yes, Vaikuntha is beyond the Brahmaloka, and everything from Brahma down is pervaded by Narayana.

I do not know anything about a Sadashivaloka. Is this from the Srimad Bhagavatam?

In Vaishnavism (by Vaishnavism I mean the Bhagavatam), I believe the answer is yes. Vaishnavism, in general, sees Shiva not as the Lord, but as the ideal devotee of Vishnu (Parama-Vaishnava). According to the Bhagavatam, Rudra was born out of the forehead of Brahma (somewhat like Athena was born from the forehead of Zeus), so like all Devas, Rudra would be bound by time. This is, however, contrary to Shaivism where Shiva is the Supreme Absolute and not an embodied being, and so in that sense not bound by space, time or lifespan.

OM Shanti,
A.


And that Rudra is time limited is contrary to Veda, which says Rudra is achyuta. He is decayless who never loses the God head and who never slumbers. He (Shiva) is the one who guides Indra and is also the father. Shiva arrives as Rudra to us as destroyer or as the auspicious. It is because of Him that we worship Vishnu, Aditi etc.

Those who know Vedas differ from those who interpret Vedas in terms of Puranas, and it is meant to be like that.


But actually Bhagavatam also does not say that Shiva is time constrained. What comes out of Brahma's forehead, is anger (Manyu), but Shiva is Gunaless and exists before that -- eternally. In the chapter of Samudra Manthan, sages declare (in presence of Brahma and Vishnu) that neither Brahma, nor Vishnu, nor Indra understand fully as to where Shiva resides -- a loka beyond definition since HE is beyond gunas.

Vedas and Upanishads will show that the infinite is beyond any lokas -- paratpara and param parastad. All forms are animated by the absolute alone. There is no other intelligence.

Lokas come after the consciousness, since to know the Lokas intelligence is required.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
12 May 2007, 08:49 AM
Sadashiva-loka is lord Shiva's and Parvatis's realm- described as the marginal potency. In Brahma Samita- his realm is said to the marginal potency between material and spiritual worlds. So it is technically higher than Satyaloka- being non material, so I would imagine the level of happiness would be greater.
Also- interesting, in the Yoga Vaihsista- worlds beyond the minds- it is said the 7th stage is indescribable in worlds- and is the stage of Brahma's and Shiva's samadhi. So even this stage would also be considered hellish to the spiritual nitya siddha in Vaikuntha- so therefore must be millions of times happier and greater in wealth to be beyond the comprehension of the great mahatmas like Shiva and Brahma- whose comprehensions are far beyond the human mind and speech.;)


Do not interpolate and spread mis information. Brahma Samhita is not Shruti. Even then it says that Maha Vishnu exists in the midst of the eternal Jyoti which is sanatana bhagwan Sambhu. It is very characteristic of Vaisnavas to think in hierarchical terms.

The ONE WITHOUT A SECOND HAS NO COMPARATIVE BASIS. EVEN MOSLEMS WILL TELL YOU THAT.


And your info on Vaikuntha from Yoga Vasista is a falsehood. Have you youself read Yoga Vashista? You say "Also- interesting, in the Yoga Vaihsista- worlds beyond the minds- it is said the 7th stage is indescribable in worlds- and is the stage of Brahma's and Shiva's samadhi". Yoga Vasista does not link Shiva with the &th stage. Anyone can check up. You link up your ideas with Yoga Vasista.

Infact Girisha is beyond even the comprehension of Vishnu. That is what is stated in Bhagavatam.


Atma does not interpolate. It is the desires that do so. Please do not assume the name Atma untill freed from the Gunas

Om Namah Shivaya

Atman
12 May 2007, 09:52 AM
Do not interpolate and spread mis information. Brahma Samhita is not Shruti. Even then it says that Maha Vishnu exists in the midst of the eternal Jyoti which is sanatana bhagwan Sambhu. It is very characteristic of Vaisnavas to think in hierarchical terms.

The ONE WITHOUT A SECOND HAS NO COMPARATIVE BASIS. EVEN MOSLEMS WILL TELL YOU THAT.


And your info on Vaikuntha from Yoga Vasista is a falsehood. Have you youself read Yoga Vashista? You say "Also- interesting, in the Yoga Vaihsista- worlds beyond the minds- it is said the 7th stage is indescribable in worlds- and is the stage of Brahma's and Shiva's samadhi". Yoga Vasista does not link Shiva with the &th stage. Anyone can check up. You link up your ideas with Yoga Vasista.

Infact Girisha is beyond even the comprehension of Vishnu. That is what is stated in Bhagavatam.


Atma does not interpolate. It is the desires that do so. Please do not assume the name Atma untill freed from the Gunas

Om Namah Shivaya

http://www.tirumala.org/sapthagiri/062003/vaikuntha.htm This should clear things up a bit. Girisha is not mentioned here- show your link.:D I forgot the other webpage- but in one of the characteristics of this supreme parapadma- it said all other lokas would be just like hell. I would assume that means all planes below it- including impersonal brahman.
Atma in it's purest sense is Purusha- which is only found in the spiritual world. I also believe the Bhagvatam also says the Vaikunthalokas are targets for everyone- even the demigods.

Agnideva
12 May 2007, 09:57 AM
Namaskar Atanu,

And that Rudra is time limited is contrary to Veda, which says Rudra is achyuta. He is decayless who never loses the God head and who never slumbers. He (Shiva) is the one who guides Indra and is also the father. Shiva arrives as Rudra to us as destroyer or as the auspicious. It is because of Him that we worship Vishnu, Aditi etc.
Those who know Vedas differ from those who interpret Vedas in terms of Puranas, and it is meant to be like that.
I do not disagree with what you have said here, but Vaishnava interpretations may or may not agree. In Vaishnava interpretations that I have come across, Rudra is almost always seen as an embodied being. This may be a completely purana based conclusion, I am not certain. The Purana is to be interpreted per Veda, and not vice versa, but too often the converse is true, imho.


Vedas and Upanishads will show that the infinite is beyond any lokas -- paratpara and param parastad. All forms are animated by the absolute alone. There is no other intelligence.
Lokas come after the consciousness, since to know the Lokas intelligence is required.Yes. In Shaiva terms, this would also be absolutely correct. In Shaiva theology (by Shaiva theology I do not mean Shaiva Puranas), there is no Sadashivaloka "beyond" Brahmaloka per se. There is something called Shivaloka (a.k.a Brahmaloka or Satyaloka), within the causal plane. The Shivaloka is the last plane where time, space, causality and sense of differentiation is perceived, and Parameshvara is visualized as having a form - a body of golden light (Svarnamaya Sharira). Beyond that, there is no concept of lokas, space, time, or distinctions as such.

OM Shanti,
A.

atanu
13 May 2007, 10:56 AM
http://www.tirumala.org/sapthagiri/062003/vaikuntha.htm This should clear things up a bit. Girisha is not mentioned here- show your link.:D I forgot the other webpage- but in one of the characteristics of this supreme parapadma- it said all other lokas would be just like hell. I would assume that means all planes below it- including impersonal brahman.
Atma in it's purest sense is Purusha- which is only found in the spiritual world. I also believe the Bhagvatam also says the Vaikunthalokas are targets for everyone- even the demigods.


Dear Atman,

You have given me a link, which I do not want. I will give you verses from Vedas directly, if you wish. Though I do not wish to enter into this again. You must comprehend that the Self Realized ones do not remain Vaisnava or Saiva and Self realization seems to be your goal too (as I perceive from your assumed name).



And by the way, Vaikuntha may be the aim of demi gods, which Shiva is not -- He is Adi Deva Maha Deva. AS I said earlier, read Vedas without reading the sectarian literature first, if you really want to escape from the claws of preferences.


Best Wishes and Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

Atman
13 May 2007, 01:45 PM
Dear Atman,

You have given me a link, which I do not want. I will give you verses from Vedas directly, if you wish. Though I do not wish to enter into this again. You must comprehend that the Self Realized ones do not remain Vaisnava or Saiva and Self realization seems to be your goal too (as I perceive from your assumed name).

.

And by the way, Vaikuntha may be the aim of demi gods, which Shiva is not -- He is Adi Deva Maha Deva. AS I said earlier, read Vedas without reading the sectarian literature first, if you really want to escape from the claws of preferences.

Of course he is a demigod- Maha yogi, the highest yogi, what does Maha Deva mean- great angel- all devas and demigods cannot comprehend that realm- period.

Best Wishes and Regards

Om Namah Shivaya
Of course I do. Actually, if you read the ebook going beyond vaikuntha- Shiva himself says he would like to be a Vaisnava. Krsna says his best devotees are his gopa's and gopis

Jigar
13 May 2007, 07:49 PM
As most Vaisnavans know- lord Visnu's heaven- aka Vaikuntha, is said to be the ultimate level of bliss, knowledge and eternity. All other heavens are said to resemble a hell- (naraka)
Does this also include Lord Brahma's Satyoloka and the Brahmapuri- including the Sadashivaloka?:eek: In going beyond Vaikuntha, Lord Shiva says 100 births of lord Brahma before his realm, then 1000 births of his realm before becoming a Vaisnava. Is Lord Shiva's lifespan the same 311 trillion 40 billion years like Brahma?
Is there an easier way to get to Visnu's heaven, and this would be the equavalent of the Garden of Eden- Paradise.:D

namaste,
The caste sytem you are defined brings you to an ultimate stage of bliss. My opinion is that Satyaloka is most highest level. The equivalent you speak of seems easily attainable by submission rather than questioning. Leading to a stage of bliss where lack of knowledge is prevalant which deletes the existance of hell.

swas tik hai,
jigar

Atman
14 May 2007, 03:08 AM
namaste,
The caste sytem you are defined brings you to an ultimate stage of bliss. My opinion is that Satyaloka is most highest level. The equivalent you speak of seems easily attainable by submission rather than questioning. Leading to a stage of bliss where lack of knowledge is prevalant which deletes the existance of hell.

swas tik hai,
jigar

Satyaloka is the highest material plane. However, it is ridiculous to think it is the highest level one can reach- when compared to the spiritual world, it would pale in significance, so much so that the beings in the world of Narayana would consider this like a hell!!:D

sm78
14 May 2007, 03:45 AM
It is no harm to consider Rudra and Shiva to be beings bound by time and Abode of Narayana to be beyond time and is the ultimate abode, for a vaishnava.

Vaishnava's hold certain things as pramana's over others and it is fine for Vaishnava to believe as such.

Only do understand that each sect or sect-less sadhak of sanatana dharma has his understanding which he following as per as his parampara.

Arguments of superiority may hold within the sect but has no place in a cross-sectional sanatana dharma discussion board. IMHO.

satay
14 May 2007, 09:31 AM
namaste,
The caste sytem you are defined brings you to an ultimate stage of bliss.
swas tik hai,
jigar

namaste,
What caste system?

Agnideva
14 May 2007, 10:01 AM
Namaste Singhi,


It is no harm to consider Rudra and Shiva to be beings bound by time and Abode of Narayana to be beyond time and is the ultimate abode, for a vaishnava.

Vaishnava's hold certain things as pramana's over others and it is fine for Vaishnava to believe as such.

Only do understand that each sect or sect-less sadhak of sanatana dharma has his understanding which he following as per as his parampara.

Arguments of superiority may hold within the sect but has no place in a cross-sectional sanatana dharma discussion board. IMHO.
Yes, I agree with this. Vaishnavism and its adherents can hold any opinion based on their texts as to who is Rudra-Shiva; this is not in itself a problem. Problems arise when one particular sectarian doctrine is extrapolated onto all of Sanatana Dharma as the true and only doctrine.

If one really wishes to understand who is Rudra-Shiva, considered by His followers as the Supreme Absolute, one can read and analyze from the Vedic Shruti; and/or from the various Shaiva Agamas (which to Shaivas is also Shruti). What it says elsewhere matters very little.

OM Shanti,
A.

sm78
14 May 2007, 11:49 AM
If one really wishes to understand who is Rudra-Shiva, considered by His followers as the Supreme Absolute, one can read and analyze from the Vedic Shruti; and/or from the various Shaiva Agamas (which to Shaivas is also Shruti). What it says elsewhere matters very little.

OM Shanti,
A.

Understanding the shrauta lore in light of Vedangas (Puruana, Itihasas, smriti and likes) hold only for Smarta and the Vaishnava sects and as such doesn't apply to Saiva and Shakta who hold their respective Agamas to be of higher authority than puranas and smritis.

I understand that personally some of us (me included :D) will not feel comfortable giving Agamas a higher authority of pramana than puranas...but that's a matter of personal choice. I really don't get why so much sectarianism still pervades our culture (particularly among vaishnavas, who otherwise I admire for various reasons), when the it has been agreed in the foundation that liberation is what everyones seeks.

I wud request Atman to enrich the vaishnavism sections which sees least activity, as per his knowledge instead of starting sell Narayana to those who seek Shiva.

sm78
14 May 2007, 11:55 AM
On a second note, since Vaishnavas and smartas almost have same basic scriptural cannon (with smartas admiting Agamas & Tantras as well into the cannon), there is some philosphical justification of argument between a smarta and a vaishnava (which is the most common thing that happens).

However, Atman, I believe (and I might be wrong), we don't have a true orthodox smarta in this forum ~ I'm only a wannabe and as such cannot take up any sectarian battle. :D

As per my understanding, there are many who accept the philosophy of Advaita but are not necessarily smarta.

Jigar
14 May 2007, 12:02 PM
namaste,
What caste system?
Namaste,

The regional caste system. I am gujurati, an I sure hope i dont end up in a rajasthani, urdu, punjabi, tamil nadu region where i cant fluently speak with someone. I would seem rather out of place.


masti nam,
jigar

Agnideva
14 May 2007, 12:48 PM
Namaste Singhi,


Understanding the shrauta lore in light of Vedangas (Puruana, Itihasas, smriti and likes) hold only for Smarta and the Vaishnava sects and as such doesn't apply to Saiva and Shakta who hold their respective Agamas to be of higher authority than puranas and smritis.
This is true. In the Shaiva and Shakta religions, their respective Agamas take a higher place as Shruti over the Puranas, Itihasas, etc. This is clearly established. In Shaivism, for example, many things said in the Shaiva Puranas, that are not accepted as doctrine in any Shaiva school because they are contrary to Shaiva Agamas. The secondary literature only enriches Shaivism, and does not define it.

The question, I would like to ask here (hopefully Atman can provide an answer) is whether Vaishnavas accept the Pancharatra Agamas as Shruti or not. If Vaishnavas accept the Pancharatra Samhitas as Shruti, then what is said in Pancharatra texts like Brahma Samhita is final and authoritative in Vaishnavism. If not, then the doctrine of the Pancharatras should cross-checked with (and conform to) the Vedic Shruti, and in doing so may be challenged by Smartas/Advaita Vedantins who accept only the Veda as Shruti.

OM Shanti,
A.

atanu
14 May 2007, 01:08 PM
Of course I do. Actually, if you read the ebook going beyond vaikuntha- Shiva himself says he would like to be a Vaisnava. Krsna says his best devotees are his gopa's and gopis


Yes. Krishna also says that He worships himself when He worships Rudra.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
14 May 2007, 01:37 PM
------Also- interesting, in the Yoga Vaihsista- worlds beyond the minds- it is said the 7th stage is indescribable in worlds- and is the stage of Brahma's and Shiva's samadhi. ----.;)


Sufficient proof of interpolation and cooked opinion.

Atman
08 July 2007, 06:29 PM
Sufficient proof of interpolation and cooked opinion.

No seriously- I have read quite alot from different books/sites. I don't doubt them.