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sarabhanga
21 March 2006, 04:46 AM
Sudarshan ~ I am not sure analogies actually help to describe how to access the summit of truth. The spoke/wheel example may be incorrect. These analogies are all based on speculations.

It would appear that you have little respect for the national flag of the Republic of India.


http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2&stc=1&d=1142933925

Only someone without a Guru could possibly be made less disciplined or more complacent by understanding that many paths are valid. For an aspirant who has submitted to instruction by a Guru, there truly is only one path ~ and by understanding that many other paths are in fact valid for other aspirants, there should be absolutely no need to argue with others about the correctness of their path ~ and full attention can be given to the aspirant’s own progress along his own chosen path.

Sudarshan
21 March 2006, 02:10 PM
It would appear that you have little respect for the national flag of the Republic of India.


Seriously, what has it to do directly with Hinduism? It is Ashoka Chakra, which is related to King Ashoka, who was a Buddhist. It is one of those things borrowed from Buddhism because Sanatana Dharma also shares the idea of Dharma Wheel - representing our continuos state of existance: birth, life, death. I would have loved to see Bhagavan preaching Arjuna in there - the Parthasarathy, wouldn't you?


I respect rest of your comments, but cannot take them very seriously because most traditions do not teach that idea. There will always be many religions in the world, and some will accept this "all path" thing and most wont. All you can say is we cant verify anything that relates to religion, unless you have a true spiritual master as a guru, or have a divine experience. If you dont have either, all you have is scriptural evidence, which is usually ambiguos and all confusion in the world is due to this.

All I can tell you is only this- right or wrong path, I have no doubt that everyone will come to attain the truth by the kindness of the merciful Lord. One of the greatest Alwars, Nammazhvar sang this - "It is the inescapable destiny of man, that he should enter the portals of Vaikunta and enjoy infinite bliss for ever". You are fated to be liberated, someday.:)

Namo Narayana
22 March 2006, 07:10 PM
It is more appropriately called dharma chakra.

The divisions of hinduism buddhism jainism is pretty new. I would be really doubtful if Ashoka followed Buddhism as a religion or as a p hilosophy.

It is not totally accurate to call him a buddhist. The chakra was his state symbol which would have been even before his kalinga war . so i dont think it is right to say that dharma chakra was borrowed from Buddhism.

Personally I woulld like to discourage the classification of hinduism or buddhism or jainism as a religion.

Religion only adds ego to a mortal.

sarabhanga
22 March 2006, 07:47 PM
Sudarshan, I am being very serious here!

Do you really think that the Dharma Cakra is placed in the heart of the Indian flag merely as a celebration of Buddhism?

The Dharmacakra is the ancient sign of the Sauras ~ the sign of Surya, and the Vedic ideal of Brahman.

The Dharmacakra is the symbol of Time (both Kala and Akala).

The Dharmacakra is the weapon (power or Shakti) of Mahakala.

And the Dharmacakra is the very form of Lord Krishna!

The Dharmacakra IS the veritable instruction of Arjuna by Krishna.

The Dharmacakra is Shri Krishna, and Krishna IS the very Sudarshana cakra of Vishnu.

The flag of India celebrates Sanatana Dharma and Lord Krishna and even you, Sudarshan!

The Dharmacakra is integral to Trayi Vidya, and the Dharmacakra is the essential emblem of all Vedic Aryan Dharma (i.e. true Sanatana Dharma).

No serious Religion accepts that ALL paths lead to God.

Sanatana Dharma knows that the paths to God are various; but only Ajativada suggests that absolutely every path is in fact one path, since Ajativada denies absolutely that Jivatman has ever been separated from Paramatman, and so there is no need (or possibility) of any so-called “paths to God”.

The non-existence of Dharma is a reality ONLY for the highest of Yogins (e.g. Guru Dattatreya).

The non-existence of variety in Dharma is a reality for ALL serious Sadhakas.

The acceptance of internal diversity in the context of Sanatana Dharma is an important lesson of the Dharmacakra, and that is one of the essential themes of Ashoka Maurya’s unifying message.


P.S. I think that some image incorporating the Dharmacakra (especially in motion!) would actually be perfect for the HinduDharmaForums insignia. And also, I am not sure that most of this thread really belongs in the “Christianity” section (?).

sarabhanga
23 March 2006, 12:02 AM
Nari Devi is the Shakti of Nara-Narayana.

Ram
24 March 2006, 07:16 AM
Traditionally, the flag had a Charka( a product of the freedom struggle) instead of the Chakra. So they just "dropped" the thread apparatus in the Charka to get the Chakra.:)

sarabhanga
24 March 2006, 10:47 PM
You are not worthy of the name Ram !

Carka is a Hindi term for “leprosy, damage, fraud, or swindle”, and it is NOT connected with spinning wheels, and nor is it connected in any way with the divine Dharmacakra.

Others may not have understood your slanderous (and truly anti-Hindu) remark ~ but your true nature is now quite apparent.

Please withdraw your unwarranted and highly offensive comment. :mad:

satay
25 March 2006, 12:38 AM
You are not worthy of the name Ram !

Carka is a Hindi term for “leprosy, damage, fraud, or swindle”, and it is NOT connected with spinning wheels, and nor is it connected in any way with the divine Dharmacakra.

Others may not have understood your slanderous (and truly anti-Hindu) remark ~ but your true nature is now quite apparent.

Please withdraw your unwarranted and highly offensive comment. :mad:

hmm...I think there is some misunderstanding here. Charkha was part of the flag representing Mahatma Gandhi's charka weaving wool. That part was dropped from the flag and the wheel remained with the number of lines equal to then number of states in India.

Ram can clear this up but I think he didn't make any anti-hindu comments here.

satay

sarabhanga
25 March 2006, 02:02 AM
The spinning wheel is a carkha or carkhI; and this Hindi term is a variation on the original Sanskrit cakra.

carka is Hindi for leprosy, fraud, or swindle.

Perhaps Ram has innocently dropped the ‘h’ from Carkha ~ in which case I must apologize.

In the context of the historical development of the modern Indian flag, it is true that the image was originally a Carkha; although it is flippant to suggest that the Indian Cakra concept is merely a later variation on the Gandhian Carkha ideal.

Sudarshan
25 March 2006, 02:23 AM
hmm...I think there is some misunderstanding here. Charkha was part of the flag representing Mahatma Gandhi's charka weaving wool. That part was dropped from the flag and the wheel remained with the number of lines equal to then number of states in India.

Ram can clear this up but I think he didn't make any anti-hindu comments here.

satay

Hehe, English spellings for Indian words are misleading, eh?

sarabhanga
25 March 2006, 03:04 AM
The aiMTA or cIMdI has been removed from the revolutionary carkhA to restore it to the ancient cakra.

carkhA चर्खा or carkhI चर्खी is clearly distinguished from carka चर्क .

And in Hindi, this old joke certainly involves the transformation of carka चर्क into cakra चक्र, by removing the appended loop (cIMdI or cIndI ~ which also indicates shuffling or cheating).

Ram
25 March 2006, 03:25 AM
You are not worthy of the name Ram !


True, only Shri Ramachanda Murthy ever can be worthy of that name, how can mere mortals be so?:D



Carka is a Hindi term for “leprosy, damage, fraud, or swindle”, and it is NOT connected with spinning wheels, and nor is it connected in any way with the divine Dharmacakra.


But this is well known. Gandhian Charka is too well known in India. Rest of the confusion is from mere English renderings. I dont know Hindi too well to really appreciate what you are saying.




Others may not have understood your slanderous (and truly anti-Hindu) remark ~ but your true nature is now quite apparent.


I get the feeling you are not Indian, or a Hindu living abroad?



Please withdraw your unwarranted and highly offensive comment. :mad:

Done. Hehe.

Sorry for the bit of confusion.

Hmm, Satay, the first post on your forum I get called anti Hindu - what next?:p

satay
25 March 2006, 09:53 AM
But this is well known. Gandhian Charka is too well known in India. Rest of the confusion is from mere English renderings. I dont know Hindi too well to really appreciate what you are saying.

correct english word is "charkha" not carka or charka which has a different meaning as sarabhanga said. Actually, I didn't even pick up on that since I know you personally and knew what you meant. The confusion was due to you dropping the "h". :)



I get the feeling you are not Indian, or a Hindu living abroad?

I don't know why you get this feeling.




Hmm, Satay, the first post on your forum I get called anti Hindu - what next?:p

you might be a lot of things but anti-hindu you are not!:D

sarabhanga is right in that if someone didn't know you there is a subtle insult there in your post which most modern hindus will miss!
satay

Eternal Law
25 March 2006, 12:31 PM
Weather it is Gandhi's Charkha or Ashoka Chakra...the fact is this figure in very important in Sanatana Dharma and also closely related with Lord Krishna. Everything is his leela and he loves to do leela....today Ultimately Chakra is on the flag of "Nation of Bharat"...the same name "Bharat" which he used for Arjuna to give message of Bhagavad Gita. Bhagavad Gita was actually directed towards future Bharat (Arjuna was just a medium) so that it's message can become base of this nation (Bharat) in Kali Yuga. His ultimate objective was creation of Spiritual Base for Kali Yuga.

Initially, This Bharat was also confused (see history of last 2000 years) and that Bharat (Arjuna) was also confused. After understanding message of Gita that Bharat (Arjuna) matured and became spiritual force. As the time passes (slowly and slowly) this Bharat (India) will also become like that Bharat (Arjuna) ...which will guide humanity in Kali Yuga. It's foolish to think that Mission of Krishna (grand incarnation) and Bhagavad Gita is completed...Actually, It has just started...

Sudarshan
25 March 2006, 02:00 PM
I agree with this. Krishna's message was hardly for Arjuna( who is so great already to percieve the universal form of the Lord) but it was only for Bharat. Bharat naturally implies the world, so the message is for the whole world.

Incidentally, Bharatvarsha, as much as it stands for the subcontinent of India, also stands for the human body. In those days, a person who leaves the land of Bharatvarsha was called a mleccha and treated like an outcaste when he returned. But this was due to poor understanding. Bharat has an inner meaning in it - it refers to the human body. Never leave Bharat means never leave the human body and strive for the one goal, failing which you are a mleccha. Always do good Karma, acquire spiritual merit by tapasya and devotion and you will never leave Bharat Varsha, the human body until you attain the infinite. (will not fall into animal births)

Eternal Law
25 March 2006, 02:41 PM
I believe, it is not a chance that this piece of land is called Bharat which is same name using which Krishna gave message of Gita. In Kali Yuga whole world can't become Spiritually awake. In Kali Yuga only this Land whose name is Bharat will become spiritual guide for rest of the Humanity and deep inside i believe this creation of Bharat was the main objective of Krishna and Bhagavad Gita and that was the main reason why Krishna used word Bharat which was destined to become a grand nation and civilization in future. As Sai Baba of Shirdi said nearly 100 years ago, real days of Bhagavad Gita are yet come when almost every home of this nation will have Bhagavad Gita and will understand it's verses.

Sudarshan
25 March 2006, 03:13 PM
I dont beleive in a piece of land being called anything special.( except sacred spots like Kasi, Tirupati etc)

Every bit of the world belongs to Bhagavan and is sacred in that respect. The whole world wont become spiritually awake, we already have too many mlecchas in our own lands. But Gita is for the whole world, and any one who is spiritually serious will find it irrespective of where he is in the world. It is wrong to think Arjuna can be found only in India. They are present all over the world.

I think Indians should never mix India and Hinduism, and never associate the religion with the land called India. Hinduism was incidentally born in India, and thrived here, but the message is meant for the whole world.

satay
25 March 2006, 03:22 PM
I I think Indians should never mix India and Hinduism, and never associate the religion with the land called India. Hinduism was incidentally born in India, and thrived here, but the message is meant for the whole world.

In a way, I agree with you. It's the bogus "hindus" of India that have no spine and show no interest in Dharma and instead are running after donkey's food (money).

Hinduism is for everyone and I am surprised actually and think that it will be thriving once again in the hands of the likes of Dr. Frawley and others. Just look at our sarabhanga and shaivite (Bhakti Yoga seeker)...how passionate they are about Dharma and stand up nicely while the bugus hindus just run after money...

enough said...:)

satay

Eternal Law
25 March 2006, 03:41 PM
You have replied with birth of Hinduism as base which is just 5000 years old logically...whereas i also took previous 3 Yugas into consideration when whole earth was follower of Sanatana Dharma (Sat Yuga) and in every sucessive Yuga it started shrinking. Ofcourse Gita is for all like Sun rays are for all....in kali yuga only Bharat is destined to become that Sun from where Spiritual Rays will move in all directions, sooner or later.

Ram
26 March 2006, 04:48 AM
I don't know why you get this feeling.


I dont know - people in India will know immediately what "Charka" means , especially since I also referred to the "spin thread apparatus" in the same context. There was possibly no need to interpret that message as a subtle insult. I introduced myself as your friend, and so somebody should sense my motives here, no?

Too much nationalism and religionism are also not good. To me, all religions are truly one and the same, all neither fully correct nor wrong. I dont care much if somebody insults India, Hinduism or God either. Only the person is loosing credibility by these acts. When a dog barks at the sun, who gets hurt?

Neither India nor Sanatana Dharma loose anything when some ignorant remarks are spewed on them. Just tease the troll who does them - my philosophy. Dont drive them or ban them, because it serves no purpose. Tease and educate the trolls. :)

sarabhanga
26 March 2006, 06:56 AM
mikehk2007 asked: “How can two diametrically opposite paths can lead to the same destiny?”

Sudarshan insisted: “There is exactly one way … there aren’t multiple ways.”

Sharabhanga explained: “Every spoke of a wheel leads directly to the one hub, even though it appears that some of them point in completely opposite directions.”

Sudarshan doubted the relevance of the wheel analogy: “I am not sure analogies actually help to describe how to access the summit of truth. The spoke/wheel example may be incorrect. These analogies are all based on speculations.”

And after I pointed to the Indian flag, Sudarshan continued to doubt the ancient (and continuing) importance of the Dharmacakra in Sanatana Dharma: “What has it to do directly with Hinduism? It is Ashoka Chakra, which is related to King Ashoka, who was a Buddhist. It is one of those things borrowed from Buddhism.”

So I continued to stress the importance of understanding the Dharmacakra, which is the ancient sign of the Sauras ~ the sign of Surya, and the Vedic ideal of Brahman ~ the symbol of Time (both Kala and Akala) ~ the weapon (power or Shakti) of Mahakala ~ the very form of Lord Krishna ~ the veritable instruction of Arjuna by Krishna ~ Shri Krishna, and Krishna IS the very Sudarshana cakra of Vishnu. The flag of India celebrates Sanatana Dharma and Lord Krishna. The Dharmacakra is integral to Trayi Vidya, and the Dharmacakra is the essential emblem of all Vedic Aryan Dharma (i.e. true Sanatana Dharma). The acceptance of internal diversity in the context of Sanatana Dharma is an important lesson of the Dharmacakra, and that is one of the essential themes of Ashoka Maurya’s unifying message.

And finally, Ram entered the discussion with the comment that the flag’s Cakra was originally a “Carka”.

With the understanding that both Hindi and Sanskrit clearly distinguish k and kh as two separate varnas (shades of sound, and thus shades of meaning), I immediately perceived that you were repeating an old (and quite clever) dig at the “deception” or “fraud” (i.e. Carka) of Gandhiji’s Carkha. And in the context of this discussion, I also assumed that you were implying the idea of fraud (or even leprosy) to the sacred Dharmacakra.

Anyway, welcome to the Forum.

Ram
26 March 2006, 07:44 AM
With the understanding that both Hindi and Sanskrit clearly distinguish k and kh as two separate varnas (shades of sound, and thus shades of meaning), I immediately perceived that you were repeating an old (and quite clever) dig at the “deception” or “fraud” (i.e. Carka) of Gandhiji’s Carkha. And in the context of this discussion, I also assumed that you were implying the idea of fraud (or even leprosy) to the sacred Dharmacakra.


Oh, ok! I dont know much Hindi, so I am not sure I would understand the difference either. So let us forget this.:)

Gandhiji's charka was always questioned as a hypocrisy and as an appeasement of the masses. I am not a big fan of Gandhi, though I think he is a much more respectable personality compared by modern standards. I do think he was a hypocrite, because he asked Hindus to turn the other cheek in the face of Islamic aggression, while he never ever condemned the act of muslims.(instead supported or defended them even for their violent actions, for example the Moplah rebellion). A Hindu should never bow to aggression , that is what I like about Satay In that respect I can never agree with Gandhi, who chose to have a shot at Christianity but had a severe weakness with respect to Islam.

Namo Narayana
28 March 2006, 10:29 AM
The spinning wheel is a carkha or carkhI; and this Hindi term is a variation on the original Sanskrit cakra.

carka is Hindi for leprosy, fraud, or swindle.

Perhaps Ram has innocently dropped the ‘h’ from Carkha ~ in which case I must apologize.

In the context of the historical development of the modern Indian flag, it is true that the image was originally a Carkha; although it is flippant to suggest that the Indian Cakra concept is merely a later variation on the Gandhian Carkha ideal.

By your logic , if i wrote cat your would read it as Chat. but still i would read it as KAT. that is the confusion. I think sarabhanga is submerged in using ca as cha so he was easily offended.

sarabhanga
28 March 2006, 05:41 PM
In Devanagari, ka क and kha ख are distinct varnas or akshas; and likewise, ca च and cha छ are clearly distinguished.

English is not consistent in its pronunciation of ca; and in English kha and cha are rarely (if ever) used.

If ca is written as cha, then cha must be written as chha, which is unnecessary because in Devanagari ca cannot be confused with ka anyway (as it is in English).