Out of various elements of our existence, how is intellect increasing ?

[kallol]

Om

Best wishes

Is it only to be seen from Biological PoV ?

Or we should also see it as a continuum and connected to the "permanent state" ?

In case it is biological, which is more relevant to the gross body, where as the intellect belongs to the subtle world, is it possible to replace head of any person with Einstein's head and we will get another Einstein ?

If no then, the question comes to mind that what contributes to the intellect component ?

Is the "permanent state" connected with us at gross and subtle levels through the 5 elements ?

If so which all elements connect us for the subtle elements ? Is light one source for transmission and evolvement of intellect ? Is exposure to sunlight has any impact ? Does entry of sunlight through eyes have any impact ?

These are questions presently pushing my mind. Look forward to your insights in these areas

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

"is it possible to replace head of any person with Einstein's head and we will get another Einstein ?" the answer to this question in depth will give you answers to all the related questions...however a very detailed understanding is required first....

so, to understand your understanding, what exactly are the "entities" which when put together is referred to as "Einstein", in your question?
when you say "Einstein" what is it you are referring to?

[kallol]

Om

Best Wishes.

As I understand.

We get a body, based on our parents and forefathers. Which has it's own strength and limitations. In this enters my mind, which again based on past karmaphal, carries the updated specs of the various subtle elements including intellect.

This mind drives the body, again in conjunction with the environment the mind is into. Through different actions (physical, mental and subtle), the knowledge and experience grows, which again contributes to intellect.

Now this is a normal evolution. Is this all ? Or there is more to it ?

If I see creation and so called life, it is dependent on light, which again is a part of the primary 5 elements. Have we understood the 5 elements properly ? How they are linked to us at all level (gross and subtle).

If we see holistically, the overall system is extremely intelligent, much beyond what we imagine. That intelligence is percolating down to us through some means. What is that ?

Not sure if I could explain it clearly. May be it will become more clear with some more discussions.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

Your understanding is quite logical and hence lets build on top of that...but before going ahead, lets get to the fundamentals first...

As the question put forward needs a very detailed answer, it will be in multiple posts as I am very much also under the influence of Time and bound by duties :)
Note: The explanation is based on specific information provided in various scripts [Bhagavad Gita, Sankhya, Puranas] which very much helps us understand the design of this system in which we are existing.

Lets first of all understand this "framework" called Universe so that we can dig into its components later....this Bramhanda of the universe which is quite often also referred to as "Prakruthi" is very complicated and has extremely well defined "tatvas"[very rough translation: principles, sometimes referred to also as philosophy...but lets stick to "principle" for this context]...modern science and scientists can only discover stuff and explain how things work but have never answered the tatva behind the discovered entities...example...scientists discovered what is gravity, how it works, how it behaves and how it can be used...but never answered what is that principle[tatva] which makes "gravity" to attract?...this is exactly the problem even we face when we try to understand ourself without getting to know the tatva behind this creation...

Sri Kapila maharishi, an avatar of Sri Maha Vishnu, very beautifully in Sankhya [I request you to kindly ignore all the western Sanskrit scholars' definition, understanding and their view on Sankhya, as a western Sanskrit scholar interpreting Sanatana Dharma is like an English scholar interpreting Algebraic equation]
enumerates[hence the name Sankhya] a lot of entities...lets take three major entities first...
- Prakruthi
- Pradhana
- Kaala [Time]

before understanding those terms, lets take an example of a computer "program"...a "program" is a set of instructions with definitions, declarations and all details written in a text editor...now, a computer program, as it is, in a text editor is not active...only when we run[get it under the influence of time] this program[opening any computer application], under the influence of time, the "processor" starts to execute the program...and such a "program under execution[or under the influence of time]" is called as a "process or application"....
Example: The web-browser[process or application] on which you are viewing this answer...until you double click on the web-brower icon, its not active and not under the influence of time...only when you open the web-browser it gets under the influence of time and becomes a process

on the similar lines "Pradhana" is a set of definitions, declarations which is non-active...it has 24 major components which are defined and properly laid out...
"Prakruthi" on the other hand is that process or the "program under execution"...when the Pradhana is influenced by the Supreme most Paramathma as Time[another major entity], it becomes the "Prakruthi" ....so first and foremost, please note that Time is a major factor which has created Prakruthi and hence everything that is derived or present inside Prakruthi is by default under the influence of Paramathma as Time ....

Lets get into the components of Pradhana which will give more clarity to your actual question in the next post...

[kallol]

Om

Namaste.

Wonderful - please carry on. I am all ears.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

The elements of Pradhana, which form the basis of materialistic entities are first enumerated and defined ...please remember that these entities are still inactive and hence how they came into existence, the way they work and how they influence everything will be described later...

As very beautifully put by Sri Kapila maharshi [Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-10]



śrī-bhagavān uvāca
yat tat tri-guṇam avyaktaṁ
 nityaṁ sad-asad-ātmakam
pradhānaṁ prakṛtiṁ prāhur
 aviśeṣaṁ viśeṣavat







As i mentioned earlier, we are trying to understand the "tatva" and hence every important word matters...so lets dig deeper into those important words..

A new term is now going to be introduced "Guna"...and an enumeration is also given that there are 3 Gunas....The term guna is a very complicated term...a very commonly used, misused and abused term...for this context lets take the very rough translation that Guna is a "force"....we will have a detailed discussion on why a guna is called a "force"..how it came into existence and what all are derived from it...for now lets first understand the beautiful words spoken by the creator of this unimaginably complicated [when individually enumerated] yet extremely simple[when we know everything is Him alone] framework....

"Avyakta" is such an important term..vyakta...in this context is something that has an apparent or clear boundary and can be classified as an individual entity separated from the rest...lets take an example...every object that we see around us...a phone, a pencil, a tumbler, a car, everything has an apparent or clear boundary which says that all the molecules put together, inside a boundary, will be collectively called as an "individual entity" ...even the huge planet earth on which we are has a boundary...go on top a hill and already you can see the boundary....the enormous sun also has a boundary ....the astronomically big stars still have boundaries...so all of this can be declared as vyakta....anything that can be classified as an individual entity with an apparent or clear limit is vyakta

but then ..look at the sky....no matter how far you stand away from it, one cannot draw a boundary on sky...there are no individual skies... there is no one more sky next to this sky...its impossible for us to see a sky next to sky because the sky by itself is boundary-less...such a tatva or principle where one can never ever draw a boundary is known as "Avyakta"..Paramathma is "Avyakta"...there is no limit one can draw and say..this is Paramathma...its technically almost not possible for us to even image the "Avyakta" principle of Paramathma....so for the sake of understanding, lets just put it this way...a state when no boundaries can be drawn to indicate an individuality is Avyakta...

Paramathma then says..."Nityam"...now this is a term thats directly related to the most important term we can relate to..Time....Time is that "inexhaustible supreme most energy" which actually is the "platform" on which this "framework" of universe is built...We again will get back to the term "Time" soon as its a topic that can be discussed forever...that which is permanent, that which is not stopped by Time, that which is eternal is also known as "Nityam"...

The terms "sad and asad" which are extremely important will be discussed in the next post...

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

The terms sat/sad and asat/asad...are very very complicated...many different interpretations are available....the most commonly used meanings to understand these terms are real and unreal...now what does real even mean...lets take two examples to check if we even understand the terms real and unreal...we will use these examples during the course of explanation time and again...

lets take "watching a movie in a theater"....now when we go to the theater, when the lights are switched off...the movie begins...lots of things are shown in the movie...there may be rain...water...sunshine...cold freezing conditions...mountains, etc...different environments, different colors, different materials are all seen by the "viewer"...if the movie is really interesting, the viewer gets completely involved in the emotions...laughs on jokes..cries during emotional scenes, etc...at the end of the movie, when lights are switched on again...all the viewer can see is "a blank white screen".....now...is the "blank white screen REAL?" or the "the projections which actually made the viewer get involved and react accordingly REAL?"...if white screen is "real", then the movie which the "viewer experienced" will be classified as "unreal"..as there is only white screen...if the movie is "real" as the viewer could "experience" it, does it make the white screen unreal?...

lets take another example....pass the white light from a prism....what do we see....a lot of colors...so...scientists came to a conclusion that "white light is made up of the seven main colors"...now, when we see white light do we actually see the other colors...if not...is white light real and the other colors unreal....after the light is refracted inside the prism, we actually see the seven colors...does it mean the seven colors are actually real and white light is unreal...

there are many more examples like the ones mentioned above and its so important for us to understand that everything that we can understand and comprehend has a direct connection with the framework in which it is being understood...

the reason we are trying to understand the terms Avyakta, nitya, sad-asad in detail is because without this understanding, the beginning of the universe cannot be understood at all..

more details in next post...

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

lets get back to the definition of Pradhana as per Paramathma....

yat tat trigunam avyaktam nityam sad-asad aatmakam pradhanam

Lets make the following statements a rule first...
lets first understand that there is Parabramha alone and there cannot be a second entity other than Parabramha as Parabramha is Avyakta...also the fact that Parabramha is Time makes Parabramha eternal or nitya....Parabramha is the only reality and hence if there exists anything inside Parabramha, it can only be "unreal" or "illusion" or "projection"...


when the term Pradhana is defined, it must be noted that it has not come into existence as Prakruthi...hence being part of Parabramha, its quite natural that the three gunas or the main forces from which everything is derived inside Prakruthi, which are of real and un-realness, when are not under the influence of Time, are in the principle of Avyakta, and are eternal-Nitya....

this may be a little confusing to understand, but as we explore further things will become more clearer...

the in-depth understanding is

- The three gunas which have the real and un-realness are eternally undifferentiated and are known as Pradhana
- Pradhana is not under the influence of Time and hence the three gunas which are fundamental blocks of Pradhana are inactive
- Pradhana has three gunas which cannot be differentiated...again its like white light which has 7 colors...looking at white light the 7 different colors can not be differentiated...
the 7 different colors in white light are exactly like the 3 gunas in Pradhana....
- Pradhana has no individual entities in active state
- The three gunas are in Pradhana in an unidentifiable state

next lets get into the "Prakruthi" definition and then shuttle between Pradhana and Prakruthi to see how every element takes its birth in this universe...

[kallol]

Om.

Namaste

Excellent.

Time + Pradhana = Prakruthi. Time is connected to creation. In between creations Pradhana remain inactive, just as in seeds.

Aptly said about sat / asat, vyakta / abvyakta. Nityam being through time and no-time. 3 gunas - sattva, rajas and tamas being the properties and characteristics.

Look forward to more from you.

Best wishes and love

[SanathanaDharma]

Yes, very well summarized...


continuing further...


"prakṛtiṁ prāhur aviśeṣaṁ viśeṣavat"


when the "one without different specialties" is "made up of differential specialties", such an entity is called Prakruthi...hence it must be very clearly noted that the specialties of Prakruthi which are Gunas, exist only inside Prakruthi..outside the Gunas cannot be specially differentiated..


Now that we have established a few fundamental definitions at the core, we can moving further towards what are the other components...how they are formed...


The enumeration of the 24 components will be done here first...
[Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-11]


pañcabhiḥ pañcabhir brahma
 caturbhir daśabhis tathā
etac catur-viṁśatikaṁ
 gaṇaṁ prādhānikaṁ viduḥ


The Parabramha has an aggregated Pradhana as the following sets
- Set of 5
- Set of 5
- Set of 4
- Set of 10


Hence constituting a total of 24...please note the most important point here...these 24 elements, which are defined in Pradhana when combined with each other at different levels forms everything present in the universe...its a combination at different levels that we perceive all around us...hence these are the fundamental elements...as an example, the variety of sweets that one prepares are many...however the basic ingredients remain sugar, milk and other basic materials...the number of ingredients used and amount of every ingredient used, along with the different cooking procedures gives rise to hundreds of sweets..similarly everything in this universe has a set of the definitions included in Pradhana When they come under the influence of Time inside Prakruthi at different levels and undergo specific procedures numerous entities can be seen...


Lets see the 24 elements in detail...

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

[Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-12]

mahā-bhūtāni pañcaiva
 bhūr āpo ’gnir marun nabhaḥ
tan-mātrāṇi ca tāvanti
 gandhādīni matāni me

Sri Paramathma says....the five maha bhuta...now this something that most of the people know...but whats more important here will the way things work here...

the five major elements...please note the term "Maha"...it very clearly indicates that these are the principle elements and many further elements can be derived from them...hence the term Maha..to separate them from the sub elements we see everywhere

- Bhuh
- Aapah
- Agnih
- Marut
- Nabhah

Bhuh here indicates the earth which itself is an entity which is further made up of millions of other smaller elements...so all of that put together..whatever constitutes to form this planet is collectively called the first major bhuta

Aapah here indicates "water"...its one of the major elements again which is in principle different from the element earth...

Agnih here indicates the fire...

Marut here indicates air

Nabhah is a term which is quite ambiguous...many say Nabhah is space...some even say its "ether"...some say its the atmosphere...it mainly depends on the context in which it is used...for now lets not worry what is correct definition as we will come across these elements later when we discuss their origin...

now comes the even more interesting part which is the term "matra"..this is a very important term as this in principle is the "fundamental information packet" which contains the value present in the maha bhuta...every bhuta has a matra and this matra is the "information packet"

- smell
- taste
- color
- touch
- sound

we will get back to these matras when we discuss the indriyas next

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

[Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-13]

indriyāṇi daśa śrotraṁ
 tvag dṛg rasana-nāsikāḥ
vāk karau caraṇau meḍhraṁ
 pāyur daśama ucyate

Sri Maha Vishnu says...there are 10 indriyas......the indriyas or the organs are enumerated as 10...now Sri Vaasudeva in Bhagavad Gita classifies these 10 indriyas [he includes a 11th one too..but we will get to it later] into two sections...
- gochara indriya
- kriya indriya

gochara is a term which very roughly translates as sensing...but lets put it in a better way..its an entity that perceives or grasps the matra from a maha bhuta...so the 5 gochara indriyas sense or perceive or grasp the information packets called matra which are originated from a maha bhuta...they are
- shrotra : the sense of hearing
- tvak : the sense of touch
- drk : the sense of sight
- rasana : the sense of taste
- naasikah : the sense of smell

this enumeration is extremely important because for anyone who has decided to take up the path to Moksha, controlling these gochara indriyas is the very first step...
please note very carefully...we still are enumerating the components of Pradhana and have not come to a point to discuss how they will be active inside prakruthi

the second set which is also known as kriya indriya..meaning the organs which performs action...
- vaak : organ of speech
- karau: hands
- charanau : legs
- medhram : generative organ
- paayur : excretory organs

these five kriya indriyas, five gochara indriyas and the five maha bhuta along with five related matras form the 20 elelemts...the final four are the most powerful amongst the 24 and we get to them next...

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté sanathanadharma & kallol




Time + Pradhana = Prakruthi. Time is connected to creation. In between creations Pradhana remain inactive, just as in seeds.

Without going too far from the essential questions being discussed in this string let me pose the following:

If time is an ~ element~ ( as suggested in 'time + pradhana' formula above ), an essential part, therefore a tattva (or that-ness) can you offer where this time is called out in the saṃkhya school of thought or perhaps in the trika school ( also known as kaśmir śaivism some call trika śāstra).
In the saṃkhya school 24 to 25 tattva's are recognized ; in the trika śāstra 36 tattva’s ( with 2 to 3 more also recognized) are called out.

I am not taking issue with any conversation here... yet this time is quite important. Even kṛṣṇaḥ-jī informs us in the bhāgavadgītā 2
kālo'smi lokakṣayakṛtpravṛddho lokānsamāhartumiha pravṛttaḥ|
ṛte'pi tvāṃ na bhaviṣyanti sarve ye'vasthitāḥ pratyanīkeṣu yodhāḥ || 11.32

I am time (kālo'smi) ...
Yet to understand this, we must consider time as kālaḥ or destroying all things , death. Within this same verse kṛṣṇaḥ-jī continues and says I am the destroyer of worlds (lokakṣaya - dwelling place + world). Hence 'I am death, the destroyer of all things' seems a reasonable translation to consider.

back to time1
When it comes to time , whose time are we looking at? On earth we think of a day as one rotation of the earth. Yet this does not hold the same value for a rotation on Jupiter or Venus. We think of one year as one trip around the sun ( 365 days); yet think of one rotation (one year) of our galaxy . That would be one year for the galaxy , no? But in earth years that would take 230 million years. The point is were is the final unit of time that is universal ( without getting into planck time3 ) ?

So, yajvan what is your point?

Time is our (human-made) measure to meter out or measure eternity . That is the true time , ananta ( endless) without break or pause; it is śeṣa or vāsuki. And, this now makes sense that viṣṇu ( meaning all pervading) rests on ananta ( endless) eternity.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ORZ2cvNTGwc/WKXpHFz4VuI/AAAAAAAAb4Q/_phVxIvrQVM/s2560/%25255BUNSET%25255D.jpg


शिवःकरोतिसर्वम्
śivaḥkarotisarvam

1. time can be kāla (to calculate or enumerate i.e. time) or velā (limit of time , period , season , time of day)

2. verse 11.32
कालोऽस्मि लोकक्षयकृत्प्रवृद्धो लोकान्समाहर्तुमिह प्रवृत्तः।
ऋतेऽपि त्वां न भविष्यन्ति सर्वे येऽवस्थिताः प्रत्यनीकेषु योधाः।।11.32।।

3. planck time - Planck unit is the time required for light to travel in a vacuum a distance of 1 planck length; again a human construct ( brilliant to say the least!)

[SanathanaDharma]

Namaste Yajvan,

thanks for stirring the most important topic "Time", which even the greatest sages find quite difficult to comprehend....

"If time is an ~ element~ ( as suggested in 'time + pradhana' formula above ) "

This understanding needs further clarification as it has caused ambiguity...Time is a very tricky term...because our fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time, its quite difficult to imagine something that exists without it...the terms beginning-less and end-less are extremely difficult for our intellect to understand...we need a lot of axioms, corollaries, reverse engineering mechanisms and what not to even get a basic understanding of Time...

However, to answer your specific question " can you offer where this time is called out in the saṃkhya school of thought"

[Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-15]
etāvān eva saṅkhyāto
 brahmaṇaḥ sa-guṇasya ha
sanniveśo mayā prokto
 yaḥ kālaḥ pañca-viṁśakaḥ

I was about to come to this verse soon, but then we will touch it here to answer your question... lets see the last line...
Sri Kapila Maharshi, the founder of Sankhya, very clearly states that "Kaalah is the 25th, along with others[24]...[please note that the detailed discussion on this verse will be done later]. So its very clearly stated that the 25th one is Kaala...with that sorted to a basic level,

lets find the answer to your second question "When it comes to time , whose time are we looking at?" lets analyse a few fundamentally important terms here
Can you please throw light on your understanding of these terms so that we can discuss further...

- Time
- Measurement of Time
- Experiencing Time
- Viewing Time

Also, a humble request ... branching out on Time will take us far far away and for anyone who is interested in gaining knowledge about Paramathma, this is a topic that can be discussed forever :)..so can we please have a different thread for that, if its not there already..

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté sanathanadharma


Namaste Yajvan,

"If time is an ~ element~ ( as suggested in 'time + pradhana' formula above ) "

This understanding needs further clarification as it has caused ambiguity...Time is a very tricky term...because our fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time, its quite difficult to imagine something that exists without it..

There is much to say about this matter and I will not derail the train of thought from the overall thread. Yet because of what you offer above is so important, it seems prudent to touch on this for just a moment .

You mention ' our fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time' - this in fact is not the case. The core essential truth that one must realize is you , all of you reading this are boundless.
Realization first comes with the intellectual understanding of this. It is this blemish (mala) that behooves man ( humanity) for all the ages. And what is that? We ( our core ~saraḥ~ or essence) is Being, satta, and this Being ( some like to call Self) is boundless, without break or pause1. This is our true Self. It is not bound by anything, this includes time.
But who says this yajvan, other than you ? Who is the scriptural authority for this?

Because this overall string is of the fragrance of the saṃkhya school, let me offer one verse that is compelling and authoritative:
Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in the chapter 2, 12th śloka of the bhāgavad gītā:
na tvevāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ |
na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ sarve vayam ataḥ param || 2.12
this says,
there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men.
Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be ||2.12

This is the highest truth one can consider. That one’s essential Self, who you really are, is and will always be; Where then is time and it’s constraint on any one if there is no start or stop?

It is when we ‘buy-in’ to the idea that we come and go, that time is real and it pushes us around that we subscribe to being a limited being. The ‘individual’. This is the core mala ( blemish). If one buys this ( individuality) then he/she is caught and crushed by time. Yet kṛṣṇa-ji informs us of the truth ( from the verse above).

Who else offers this wisdom ? Look to gauḍapādacharya’s work called the māṇḍūkyopaniṣatkārikā (māṇḍūkya-upaniṣad-kārikā), also known as gauḍapādiyakārikā, done in 215 verses , 4 chapters. It is his commentary of one of the central upaniṣad-s (number 3 out of the top 10) within vedānta thought. Gauḍapādacharya-ji lays the foundation for the advaita tradition. What could be more authoritative?

To not pursue this ultimate truth is selling a diamond for the price of spinach.

...yathā icchasū tathā kuru
do as you see fit ( or as you wish)


शिवःकरोतिसर्वम्
śivaḥkarotisarvam

1. without break or pause:
turyātīte bheda ekaḥ
satatoditaityam || tantrāloka 10.283
· 'without break or pause' is some times called avicchinnātaparamārthaṁ, uninterrupted, yet the word I often use is satatoditam (satata + udita)

[kallol]

Om

Namaste Yajvanji and SanatanaDharmaji.

The discussion has been enriching. The fact that the basic principles include the boundless and timeless characteristics have been propounded by all. As I understand, the factor time comes into being at certain state and thus the concept of boundary is created beyond that.

At absolute state, the time and boundary cease to exist.

However I am waiting with all open ears to learn more.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

namaste Yajvan,

A quick clarification "that statement was with respect to every entity trapped inside the maya called "Prakruthi: which itself is bound by Time""...
if the whole point you are trying to make is that Aatma[Self] is not bound by Time,naturally that is the absolute truth and there is nothing to discuss further...

if that does not clarify, then the following explanation...

Sri Vaasudeva very beautifully says at many places in Bhagavad Gita
- that once one remembers "Him at the "Time" of travelling from one body to another", such an entity "will attain Him and will never come back"
does that mean, till one attains Him, the "Time" factor still exists and binds that entity?- food for thought

"is you , all of you reading this are boundless" this is the prime reason for mentioning the fact that even the greatest sages find quite difficult to comprehend "Time"..

First of all on what basis did the terms "you" and "all of you" were derived along with the term "boundless-ness"...how was a boundary drawn for "you" and "all of you"...what is the criteria for distinguishing the two separate terms...till "what Time" will this two terms remain separate...or are they really two separate terms?

the answer is also provided in that statement you make: "The core essential truth that one must realize", which very clearly indicates that that the realization of "truth" is not yet achieved...if that is the case, every entity that has not yet realized the truth is in a particular "unrealized state" ...if an entity, which is in "unrealized state" is not bound by Time, then it becomes impossible to go to the "realized state" ,as Time is the only factor which will influence "action"..here its the action of an entity moving from an "unrealized state" to a "realized state"...else the "unrealized entity" will continue to stay in that state...so for those primary reasons the entities which are derived inside Prakruthi are inherently always bound by Time...

The word "inherently" is also very important when we say the fundamental state of existence is inherently always bound by Time....we are talking about the Prakrithi...where the illusion of individuality has been created, where everything inside it inherits the properties of Prakruthi...and most importantly Prakruthi itself is "bound by Time" so its almost clear to understand that everything derived from Prakruthi is automatically bound by Time....

Please use the "kshara and akshara Purusha" terms mentioned in Bhagavad Gita..you will very clearly understand what I am trying to say...

Again "if the whole point you are trying to make is that Aatma[Self] is not bound by Time,naturally that is the absolute truth and there is nothing to discuss further..."

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

Great thread and I also do not want to divert, as it's all inter~connected I will try to add what I understand.

Time and the elements are quite simple to understand within the material energy, I am using some viveka at the moment to make a distinction between the boundless nature of the material and the boundless nature of the spiritual energy because they are different. They are both boundless but in diferent ways.

How is time eternal when we are existing in something that has the nature to be temporary, logic would then say that time is temporary as nothing lasts, this wrong view does not take the continuum into account. Conditions are always changing, this is an ongoing process, there is no start or end to this. Recently I heard that on our planet there is always the same amount of water, the element water always has the same volume, but water is always moving and appears and disappears. This must be true for all the elements. So the material energy is like a recycling machine, but each manifestation is always slightly different, conditions are always changing, no two snowflakes are exactly the same, like our finger prints they are unlimited in their design. So due to the complex nature of movement of the material energy it's never the same twice, so therefore it's unbounded.

Being bound by time is being bound by the cause of action and it's effect, but nothing stays still, being bound in any condition is not fixed, it will change, time directs these things in a interconnected way with all the other elements, time along with the other factors are always moving, on the go creating and destroying itself in eternal and ever new ways. That is one way that I can see material energy as being boundless, it has infinite boundless movement and change.

Time as experienced through awareness. When becoming arises it is bound by time, what arises in the becoming of something is when the material elements are agitated, or prakriti is activated from pradhana it comes under the jurisdiction of time, time is inherent in pradhana like all elements. If the conditions of becoming are not agitated time does not exist, and one is situated in the boundless state of the true self, which has no footing or quality within the material energy, it's boundless in a different way. Pradhana is dependant of consciousness to be activated but consciousness or awareness is not dependant on matter for its own self sufficient state.

In the uncreated there is no time because there is no becoming, it's not bound by anything, time is activated when consciousness identifies with and agitates the elements, this is the view from the point of consciousness and it's relation to time and the material energy.

[kallol]

Om

Namaste


Aatma[Self] is not bound by Time,naturally that is the absolute truth

I hope the Self mentioned above is referring to the Unrealized State. As the concept of the self comes with Time.

As rightly said along with Maya or Prakruiti.

Any entity at gross level carries the elements of the characteristics as enumerated by you, which possibly forms the state of mind, does the five maha elements have any role to play at gross and subtle level ?

Say for example (just for the sake of discussion) Earth may be more connected to gross body, where as Fire might be more towards subtle body, Space might be again in starting of subtle ... so on and so forth.

In case these can be linked, then the next question comes - how are the sunlight, earth, etc still influencing us ? In this continuum of all layers how is the interplay happening ?

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing from the previous post regarding the enumerations..

"I hope the Self mentioned above is referring to the Unrealized State."...we will soon get into the details...as there are totally three final entities which we will be looking into and one of them is Aatma...we will get into that details soon...

"Any entity at gross level carries the elements of the characteristics as enumerated by you, which possibly forms the state of mind, does the five maha elements have any role to play at gross and subtle level ? " ...very interesting question..following explanations will provide clarity to the other questions you have put forward too...I am sorry for taking a lot of time to provide explanations as your questions are very very interesting and deserve an in-depth and elaborate responses...

the final four are the most powerful amongst the 24 and we get to them now...

[Srimad Bhagavatam- Sankhya - 3-26-14]

mano buddhir ahaṅkāraś
 cittam ity antar-ātmakam
caturdhā lakṣyate bhedo
 vṛttyā lakṣaṇa-rūpayā

Sri Vaasudeva enumerates those 4 elements which collectively is referred to as the "antar-aatma", the inner-aatma...why is it so, we will get it to later
- Manas - the Mind
- Buddhi - the Intellect
- Chitta - usually referred to as the consciousness, we will understand it better later
- Aham - The identity [not Ego as very popular described], we will understand it better later

we will get into these terms in depth as that will answer a lot of complicated questions...the antar-aatma...it technically is one entity but is composed of 4 entities ...these four entities [mind, intellect, consciousness and the identity] can be only "marked as different" based on their "functionality/action/work" and "form of their lakshana[roughly features]"..so technically we can go back to the white light prism example again...the four entities are part of a single antar-aatma...however they are differentiated into four entities based on the actions they perform, the features they are made up of...

now that the enumeration is complete regarding the 24 elements of Pradhana, in order to understand them clearly, we will take help of Time and then enter Prakruthi and figure out how all of these work together..how are they mutually connected...who am "I"...who is entangled where...how to understand all of these things....and other mysteries of the cosmos....

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

As conciousness is indivisible, I hope you are referring to reflected conciousness.

Also when we say Manas is mind and it is different from other characteristics, either there is a heirarchy or need to find a way to connect all of these for the smooth transition from one body to another.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

"As consciousness is indivisible", actually everything is indivisible, but the illusion in Prakruthi makes them behave as an individual entity... "I hope you are referring to reflected conciousness" please let me know what is "reflected consciousness"...

"Also when we say Manas is mind and it is different from other characteristics, either there is a heirarchy or need to find a way to connect all of these for the smooth transition from one body to another." yes everything is very well connected..the components under the influence of time are very well connected...when we get to the part where we will discuss the actual origin of these components inside Prakruthi, the connectivity can be established.

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.15]...we revisit this verse in depth now...

etāvān eva saṅkhyāto
 brahmaṇaḥ sa-guṇasya ha
sanniveśo mayā prokto
 yaḥ kālaḥ pañca-viṁśakaḥ

Here Sri Purushottama says "these enumerations put together is Bramha as Sa-Gunasya"...such a beautiful verse...questions arise
- If everything is ParaBramha alone..there is nothing else other than Him, then what are these 24 components?
The answer will be, yes everything is ParaBramha alone...nothing else exists...this is also Bramha..but
- If this is also Bramha then does it mean there is no differentiation between these components and the Supreme most?
The answer is, yes there definitely is a difference...this is part of Bramha where the "Gunas" are visible, there is a reality called Bramha without Gunas visible
- If Gunas are visible as part of Bramha does it mean Bramha has Gunas too?
The answer is beautifully mentioned in Bhagavad Gita 7.12

ye chaiva saatvika bhaava rajasas tamasas cha ye
matta eveti taan viddhi na tva aham teshu te mayi

know that all these "Bhaava"[we will come to this term later...as of now lets take it as features or characteristics] of saatvika rajasa taamas gunas are
originated from Me...I am not under them however they are under Me...

- So it means in reality ParaBramha is "Nirguni" One without Gunas?
The answer is definitely yes
- Then who or what is "Sa-guna Bramha"?
The answer is this is the reason why this entire "shrushti" or creation of Prakruthi is called "Maaya"...there exists with ParaBramha an illusion where the Gunas are distinctly visible..again back to the white light example...without the prism its not possible to to see the seven distinct colors present in white light...so does it mean white light has these colors inside..definitely yes...does it mean the prism is the one which is creating the distinction of colors..again the answer is yes...so without prism the white light stays as white light? of course yes...then to see the distinction one has to go thru the prism? yes...beyond the prism only white light exists..yes...similarly the Sa-guna Bramha can be perceived only inside the Prakruthi...Nirguna Bramha is the reality present both in and beyond the Prakruthi...

so does it mean all this illusion which we are experiencing now is Sa-guna Bramha? food for thought...we will slowly get answer to that too

The arrangement in which all of these 24 elements come into existence is with that 25th element called "Kaalah" or Time....Time again is Paramathma...Time is that Supreme Infinite Energy which creates the term "next"...Time is that component without which the term "action" cannot be defined...lets take one more example here
take the movie or video...the motion picture....when you check what is on the reel...its nothing but a series of still photographs...every single photograph taken at different points of time...all these photographs when put in a series, one after the other forms a reel...now until unless these photos come under the influence of Time and are viewed one after other[at some particular rate], they continue to remain still photographs....an action is similar to a movie...every step is actually a static snapshot...when under the influence of Time the snapshots continue in a particular sequence, an action can be performed...we will use this example in further discussion to see how Time influences the elements of Pradhana to create this Maaya called Prakruthi...

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing further...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.18]

antaḥ puruṣa-rūpeṇa
 kāla-rūpeṇa yo bahiḥ
samanvety eṣa sattvānāṁ
 bhagavān ātma-māyayā

Now we start understanding what and how things are formed of which we are part of...

By His Divine Maaya[the energy which causes this great illusion..this projection..this universe called Prakruthi...] Bhagavan...He the Supremost,

amongst every "entity that exists inside the Prakruthi", He internally is present as "Purusha" and externally He is present as "Kaala"...

now this is such an important point which will clarify many questions...

- what are those entities?
Everything that is derived inside the Prakruthi using the materials available...
- who is Purusha then?
The Supreme most is embedded inside the entities in the form of Purusha
- how does Time influence then
The Supreme most , from outside, influences the entities which have Purusha embedded inside them
- So Paramathma is both inside and outside the materialistic entities which are formed inside Prakruthi?
Yes, as Purusha inside and as Kaala outside
- Does it mean its only the materialistic entity that is not Paramathma?
The materialistic entity is a projection inside Paramathma..Purusha and Kaala are Paramathma
- Does it mean the materialistic entities inside Prakruthi are influenced by Time from outside and continue to exists as Purusha is inside them?
Yes, every materialistic entity, with Purusha embedded internally, is under the influence of Time externally

The divine Maaya of Paramathma is such that He who is Avyakta, creates an illusion, a field or a framework where everything looks "distinguishable" ..This framework is inside Him, is under His influence, however He is not under them...again however He is also inside the framework and inside every entity in the framework and also influences every entity inside the framework from outside the entity, being present inside the framework...

after all this, still the entities, under the influence of Maaya conclude that there is I, me and mine ...

we will get to the core of creation in next post...

[kallol]

On

Namaste.

The manifestation and un manifestation happen at all layer. At gross layer it is "All out of energy and run by energy".
The characteristics of all gross elements are in the basic energy itself however unmanifested.

As we move down to the substratum, it exists in manifested form right through subtle and gross layers. Like at gross layer it is combination of all 3 layers. These are the lower 7 lokas.
The subtle layer has subtle and consciousness layer. These belong to upper 7 lokas.
Time and space start from the subtle layer.

Referring to my statement on reflected conciousness, it taken as OC and RC. Original consciousness and Reflected conciousness. Analogy - Sunlight is say OC. Present everywhere and continuous. Pieces of mirrors reflecting this light to a dark room. This reflected light is like RC. Room is the body. The reflected light gets distorted by the extent of dust, colour or quality of mirror. The mirror represents the mind.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

Thanks for the explanation...
"The reflected light gets distorted by the extent of dust, colour or quality of mirror. " That is a very interesting way to understand the chitta...we have something peculiar about Chitta which will actually support your analysis..we will come to that shortly...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.19]

daivāt kṣubhita-dharmiṇyāṁ
 svasyāṁ yonau paraḥ pumān
ādhatta vīryaṁ sāsūta
 mahat-tattvaṁ hiraṇmayam

Sri Kapila Maharshi says...There has to be an object or some initiator which starts the process of creation....for that reason, Paramathma, within His own Yoni[the place where a seed can be sowed], impregnates the veeryam or the seed which is the root cause of this materialistic universe....and by His divine power He creates a reaction which follows a protoco[dharminyam]l to create this enormous principle[Mahat-tattva] called "hiranmayam" or the universe...please note that an external seed is impregnated and reactions occur as the seed enters the yoni to create this universe and all of its components...

From this point onward, we are entering Prakruthi...we are under the influence of Time...we are under the illusion ...lets understand the most important term one needs to comprehend which will lead to mukthi...the term which is the opposite of "Avyakta"..that term or the concept of having an individual identity...that which draws a boundary...that which defines an entity...till now everything was like colors in white light....no distinct individuality...now the principle which introduces the concept of individual identity takes birth inside Prakruthi...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.23]

mahat-tattvād vikurvāṇād
 bhagavad-vīrya-sambhavāt
kriyā-śaktir ahaṅkāras
 tri-vidhaḥ samapadyata

Sri Paramathma says....The "Mahat Tattva"..the universe which has now "manifested" itself under the influence of that infinite energy called Time, undergoes a lot of changes[vikurvaanaad]...every reaction starts now...the principles are going to manifest into entities inside the cosmos...and please note that all of this is not happening by chance...its not happening by itself...it simple cannot happen by itself[as the atheist modern day scientists claim]..the complexities of universe are well defined, controlled and definitely monitored ....everything is managed perfectly..its an orchestra thats being played out beautifully...under the infinite energy of ParaBramha ...
[B]this entire universe or the mahat tattva, under the influence of the infinite energy of ParaBramha, creates "individual identity for three types of entities which are classified by the powers to perform a particular kind of action"

please note this is the origin of the term "ahankaara"...an individual entity which gets the authority to perform action[aham -kaara] is being defined based on the power to perform a particular kind of action[kriya-shakthi]...and three such entities which have different "kriya-shkathi" become the first ones to be identified as individual [aham] which take the authority to perform action

Hence the basic definition of "I" and "I can" is the fundamental block of the three forces which can perform a particular kind of action...and everything derived and under the influence of these forces will always inherit the "ahamkaara"...this is the prime reason why Sri Vaasudeva says beautifully in Bhagavad Gita...one should become "Nirguni" or should be free from the influence of these three forces and only then can the state of indivisibility be realized...

[kallol]

On

Namaste

Though I come from a scientific background and I see the scripture knowledge from the view of science behind life and creation, I also feel that people with different background will try to grasp the same in different ways. A doctor or an engineer or a lawyer will define a complex event in different ways and all of them describing the same TRUTH, in their ways.

I see this as a self sustained system where the manifestation happen at each layer. However the mechanism and process of manifestation have been defined differently for the consumption of differently abled minds.
One of the ways is that the creation is out of the cumulative minds.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

very true...a lot of people understand Truth at a lot of levels in different ways...science, as a matter of fact, supports analysis, questioning and rationally arriving at a conclusion only after extensive result based research...however when a scientist, with modern science still in its toddler stage, concludes that there exists no Supreme power and all of this is happening by itself, it not only becomes unscientific and irrational, but shows the impact of three gunas on yet another human being :)

continuing further...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.24]

vaikārikas taijasaś ca
 tāmasaś ca yato bhavaḥ
manasaś cendriyāṇāṁ ca
 bhūtānāṁ mahatām api

Sri Parameshwara says, after undergoing the transformation, based on the kriya-shakthi, the three types of ahankaras are now named as
- Vaikaarika or also known as Saatvika
- Taijasa or also known as Raajasa
- Taamasa

and now we discuss the most important part...the origin of those components which were defined in Pradhana, manifest into existence, inside Prakruthi
From the three "ahankaras" which have specific "kriya-shakti" that makes them classify as saatvika,raajasika and taamasa, the mind, the indriyas and the maha bhuta and everything else is derived...

so the prime point before we go to the individual entity is that, the mind, indriyas and the maha bhuta which includes everything materialistic inside this universe, takes the "lakshana" or the "characteristics" from the combination of these gunas...

to understand better, lets take the way all the possible available colors can be derived with only combination of different values of three major colors Red, Green, Blue
the combination of the RGB values gives rise to the numerous colors that one can see...the combinations of Red, Green and Blue at different levels give rise to different colors..similarly the three gunas are the source of everything inside this universe...the value and combination defines the characteristic of every element we perceive here

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

Absolutely right.

I would also like to have some understanding on the heirarchy.

As we deal with most of the elements through our mind. Most of the rest is a backend process - some perceivable and some not.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

"I would also like to have some understanding on the hierarchy." If you are referring to the different levels to understand the reality, Sri Krishna in Bhagavat Gita gives a beautiful analysis...we can get to that once this explanation is complete...

continuing...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.26]

kartṛtvaṁ karaṇatvaṁ ca
 kāryatvaṁ ceti lakṣaṇam
śānta-ghora-vimūḍhatvam
 iti vā syād ahaṅkṛteḥ

Sri Vaasudeva starts by describing the feature set of "aham" which is the based on "kriya-shakti"
- kartrtvam : the fundamental concept of "being the performer of an action"
- karanatvam : the fundamental concept of "being the instrument that performs an action"
- kaaryatvam : the fundamental concept of "the action itself"

please note all the three concepts are directly related to "action", which by definition exists only because there is a factor called Time which creates the term action...
the three aham are hence inherently bound by time as their feature set is defined with action as a base...

these three aham have the prime "lakshana" or characteristic which defines their "kriya shakthi"

the force or guna which can be identified[aham] based on the power to perform[kriya-shakti] the action of what is defined as "serene equilibrium[shaanta]"
the force or guna which can be identified[aham] based on the power to perform[kriya-shakti] the action of what is defined as "fierce or reactive [ghora] "
the force or guna which can be identified[aham] based on the power to perform[kriya-shakti] the action of what is defined as "staying idle or ignorant [vimudha]"

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.27]

vaikārikād vikurvāṇān
 manas-tattvam ajāyata
yat-saṅkalpa-vikalpābhyāṁ
 vartate kāma-sambhavaḥ

Now we dig deep into every single element...lets start with the great "Manah or mind"...notice the beatiful way in which everything will be designed now..the perfect systematic design and description is a treat for anyone who is thirsty of real knowledge...

vaikaarikaad...from the first aham whose kriya-shakti defines actions that exhibits serenity and equilibrium, that pure saatvika guna when under the great influence of Paramathma as Time undergoes transformation , the principle[tattva] of Mind[Manah] is born...

so here we will get to unravel the mysteries of ourselves ......
Mind takes birth from the pure saatvika guna
Mind is derived from that aham whose prime characteristic is the action of equilibrium
Mind is derived from a Guna and hence, under the influence of maaya, inside Prakruthi, Mind has an identity of its own...
Even for a person who does not have raajasika and taamasa guna, if one is completely having only saatvika, still there will be an aham as in mind as it has taken birth from an aham that has a particular kriya shakthi...that term "i am" will still persist...


now lets dig deeper..lets see the prime meta-features of mind
- sankalpa - the process where the mind confirms and describes the premise for the next set of actions or very roughly "planning the action"
- vikalpa - the process where the mind decides on a choice or chooses an option

at every given point of time in this Prakruthi, our Mind is that entity which constantly deals with the two process of "sankalpa" and "vikalpa"...there are always choices and the mind always decides the plan of action at every point...this behavior of Mind is the the reason why "desire" takes birth...

lets take a very simple example....a new born child....the main things it does is cry, drink milk and sleep...here the mind of that child,
- keeps checking the two options[vikalpa] 'if hungry or not'
- when hunger is felt[an option"hungry" is chosen from vikalpa], the mind makes a "sankalpa" to cry till something is fed and it executes that sankalpa
- again the mind keeps checking the two options [vikalpa]"still hungry or not"
- when the stomach is full, hunger is no longer felt [an option"not hungry" is chosen from vikalpa], the mind makes "sankapla" to stop drinking the milk...

this process slowly grows and gives rise to desire as the kid grows, it starts to make sankalpa and decide from vikalpa based on the kaama or desire....we will continue this explanation in next post...

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

Intricacies of mind's features are interesting.

When there is no mind, the "I" is not there but the other gunas might be there in satvik form.

Now the formation of mind - is it a combination of the gunas and ... ?

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

"When there is no mind, the "I" is not there but the other gunas might be there in satvik form. " yes very true..the gunas themselves will have that "I" in them...

"Now the formation of mind - is it a combination of the gunas and ... ? "..yes like the RGB example, hear lets for the sake of understanding say that 0% indicates lack of a particular guna and 100% indicates fullness of a particular guna...hence at the begining when mind is created from Saatvika guba, it will ha
Saatvika Raajasika Taamasika
100 0 0

but as the mind gets trapped with the indriyas and other stuff around, the gunas start to condition the Mind accordingly...the value of the gunas keep on changing and as Sri Vaasudeva says in Bhagavad Gita, the influence of gunas keep changing...conditioning of the mind indicates the gunas which will be impacting it more ...

mind or manah..is such an important thing, it will the greatest friend if tamed, else will be the greatest enemy..it becomes very important to dedicate a lot of discussions on this mind as its one of the Prime entity which is performing a lot of actions...

now what will be very interesting is that Sri Krishna in Bhagavad Gita, gives mind, a dual identity...He refers to mind also as an "indriya"..the 11th one....this can be so beautifully understood..lets dig in deep in the next post...

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

That seems logical. As mind moves from satvik and acquires rajas and tamas characteristics also the the other gunas also get attached.

And when you say gunas also have "I" then should I assume they also have instances of mind ?

Interesting

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

"And when you say gunas also have "I" then should I assume they also have instances of mind ?" thats the point we are trying to understand from these principles..its actually the other way round....

- the first entities that were created were the three ahankara["Identity or Aham or I"]...
- so on what basis were they classified as three different aham?
- based on kriya shakthi...the power to perform an action or a particular kind of action
- what were the three kriya shakthis on which the aham were classified
- the kriya shakthis based on the characteristics of shaanta[serene or equilibrium], ghora[strongly pro-active], vimudha[idle or ignorance] were classified as three gunas...

so it means the Gunas are the "names" based on certain "characteristics", which are defined for the forces[kriya-shakthi] of the Aham...

Main entity - AHAM - defined based on a particular "kriya-shakthi"- will be called as Gunas

now Mind or Manah is derived from the saatvika guna...it means
- Saatvika guna is the parent of Manah and hence the Guna itself does not have Mind..but because Mind is derived from a Guna[which is the name of an Ahankaara], Mind by default will have an Aham...Guna itself is an Aham...

please let me know if thats clear as this will be the basis for every other understanding...

[kallol]

Om

Namaste Sanatan Dharma.

Samkhya philosophy is not known to me in some details, so it was difficult to comprehend at first. I had to refer to some information with hierarchy charts to understand the same.

To some extent it is clear. We can proceed to the next step. I will start reading more on this philosophy.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

Namaste Kallol,

The only reason I asked about the clarity of my explanation was to improve it, if it was not clear.. as the main purpose of such discussions is to share and gain knowledge:)

continuing...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.29]

taijasāt tu vikurvāṇād
 buddhi-tattvam abhūt sati
dravya-sphuraṇa-vijñānam
 indriyāṇām anugrahaḥ

Sri Kapila Maharshi says

when the aham which has the kriya-shakthi of being characterized as proactive, which is named as taijasa or raajasika, underwent transformation under the influence of Paramathma as that infinite inexhaustible energy Time, the principle of "Budhi or Intellect" came into existence.....

dravya sphurana vijnaanam...the knowledge about the elements when contacted,
indriyaanaam anugrahah...supporting and helping the indriyas activities...

please note the most important point of intellect here....the term "jnaana or gnaana" or knowledge is introduced here ...what knowledge are we referring to?...about every element present within the prakruthi...the understanding of these elements is the prime objective of intellect...its this intellect with that knowledge allows us to even read and write in this forum...only with the knowledge of every element required the concept of "understanding" and then "realizing" even happen....

also please note that the indriyas which are the gochara[sensory], kriya[actuators] and the most important 11th one ...Manah..[remember the dual role of Mind] are all aided by the intellect...

budhi or intellect is like laying the tracks for a train...and mind is like the train which will strictly follow the tracks....the more good knowledge our intellect collects, the mind will be conditioned better....

we will link the entities more clearly in the next post...

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

Right. Manah is aided by the five senses through the 5 sensory organs and the intellect to take decisions through the 5 action organs.

The satvik mind represents the satya loka or the highest loka and as it moves down the the rajas part increases and ends at the tamas part or the 14th loka - the so called inert universe. If I may put it that way.

However human and all beings are a combination of the entire spectrum.

This combination (variation) also decides the evolution of intellect - can it be possible also ?

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

"This combination (variation) also decides the evolution of intellect - can it be possible also ?" yes..very much...now lets take an example here...

when a child takes birth, ofcourse the "conditioned state" exists from the previous janma, however, lets take the infant stage...when its parents and surrounding people start feeding it with different kinds of food...

based on the previous karma, when a child takes birth in a saatvik environment, its intellect is provided with the knowledge that "himsa" or "violence" for sensory gratification is adharma...ahimsa is dharma...hence an animal, which can feel pain, should not be killed, only for the purpose of satisfying the sense of taste... saatvika food needs to be consumed, only after offering it to Paramathma....as you mentioned, the high rate of saatvika influence on this child's intellect evolves it with greater knowledge that causing pain for sensory satisfaction is not righteous...the intellect by learning the fact that everything should be offered to Paramathma, definitely gets evolved towards the Supreme...

where as take another scenario...when a child takes birth in a family which consumes animal flesh for the satisfaction of their senses....this child is automatically given the dead animal's meat from its very young age and its intellect does not evolve too well towards Paramathma...

Ofcourse one can never rule out the possibilities that the child from first scenario, with evolving intellect, can later due to bad influence[effect of surrounding gunas] take the wrong path, thus stopping the evolution in right direction.. or the child from second scenario, due to good influence later on, gets its intellect evolved and stops the cruel act of eating meat for sense gratifications...

this whole point of non existence of stability inside this universe is the reason why Maaya is so strong and powerful...conditioning is very important and as SRi Vaasudeva says in Bhagavad Gita, the sat-sangha or the connection with those whose intellects are evolving towards the reality is extremely important...

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

one of the most confusing and unclear concept of distinguishing the materialistic brain and the subtle intellect is very interesting...most of us relate, very easily, that brain is intellect...however we need to first of all understand the following terms to differentiate between the physical entity and the subtle entity

data
memory
database
database management system[conditioning with impression]

data mainly consists of packets of information which actually are derived from the spectrum of bhutas and are embedded in the maatras...we will get to individual bhuta and maatras origin later on...
the information present in the maatras provide what we refer to as knowledge...data is being bombarded to the sensory organs on a continuous basis...the following kinds of phenomena are associated with data "dravya sphurana vijnaanam...the knowledge about the elements when contacted"

- consumption of data using the sensory organs
- processing the consumed data [understanding]
- saving or storing the data [memory]
- prompting the data to support mind in choosing and performing actions
- removal of stored data [forgetting]
- ignoring the incoming data and rejecting it by shutting the sensory organs...

[Srimad Bhagavatam - Sankhya - 3.26.30]

saṁśayo ’tha viparyāso
 niścayaḥ smṛtir eva ca
svāpa ity ucyate buddher
 lakṣaṇaṁ vṛttitaḥ pṛthak

Sri Kapila Maharshi beautifully enumerates the lakshanas of budhi, which will help us understand the other three terms...

samshaya..or the ability to doubt, to be skeptical or not believe, and thus the possibility to err or commit a mistake ...viparyaasa

nischaya..or the ability to confirm after processing and to form basis in performing a correct action

along with....

[this gets very very interesting here....please note that there are four states[avasthe] in which the subtle energies of antaraatma can exist..jaagruta, svapna, su-supta, turya...we will not get into the details here as it will be a new, but a very important topic by itself..how ever in order to experience two of these states, its the intellect that directly is associated as the cause...]

smriti or the ability to remember..derived from smarana...to remember or recollect...the concept of getting back the knowledge..remembering and recollecting...this happens in an continuous loop until unless acted by the intellect otherwise...and this is the building block of experiencing the jaagruta avaste...smriti gives us the experience of life...its the memory...smriti is the most important part of anyone as its the "secret key" to exit this maaya...as Sri Vaasudeva says in Bhagavad Gita, when an entity "remembers [smarana]" Paramathma during the time of final travel from a particular body, its possible to attain Paramaathma...so this lakshana called smriti of budhi is perhaps the most useful thing in this universe....

svaapa or the ability to dream...dream is an un-orchestrated flow of random thoughts which are taken from the memory...this is the intellect's lakshana that induces the "svapna avasthe" ...its only because of this lakshana of intellect, we even dream...dream is a state where random thoughts with no proper streamlining occur which leaves the person in a state where a "simulator" kind of experience is obtained...

a lot to continue in the next post...

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

the smrithi and svaapa are lakshanas of budhi...which means these two states or avastha of existence are primarily dependent on budhi...now the phrase evolution of intellect which has been mentioned sometimes, comes into picture...the budhi or intellect which has these clearly distinguished lakshanas will have the effect of those states in the same way too...during the lifetime of a person, the intellect can
- evolve, gain more knowledge, seek more information and thus grow towards reality or
- continue to get entangled in accumulating more information about pleasure and pain thus circling continuously while advancing nowhere or
- remain stagnant with absolutely no progress thus remaining ignorantly inactive

as one can notice the three gunas play a very important role in shaping up the the knowledge intellect can gain and thus helping it evolve or roam aimlessly or stay stagnant

all the data or information that is input from the sensory system is simultaneously stored in a physical database which is the brain...please note that the data is stored in brain, but the intellect has knowledge about it and can recollect this data...the intellect is embedded subtly inside the brain like sweetness in sugar...

while all of these happen, there is a background process that is always happening..."conditioning"...before understanding conditioning, there is a step where "impressions" are created...imagine the good old days when a "carbon paper" was kept between the actual document and the duplicate document and anything that was written on the actual document created a similar impression on the duplicate document...also the more pressed the pen was on the actual document, the more clear the impression on the duplicate one...

we will relate this example in next post

[kallol]

Om

Namaste.

Thanks. It clears the evolution of intellect.

Does it talk about the micro evolution of the intellect ?

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

"Does it talk about the micro evolution of the intellect ?" can you please elaborate on the term micro evolution so that i can answer your question...

continuing..we were discussing the term "impression".....this is one of the prime ingredients which constitutes as a catalyst in the evolution of intellect and mind....
the impression can be seen in two dimensions
- depth
- imprinted essence

whenever the data is collected and processed by the intellect, it can be stored with a value assigned for both depth and imprinted essence...when we recollect[smarana] anything very constantly the value of depth increases greatly...also all the characteristics of the "data" which is remembered will create an imprint which can also be referred to as "Vaasana"..Smrithi which is the lakshana of budhi creates a deep and long lasting imprint based on how repeatedly a data is recollected...

lets take a few examples here for the though processing...
- without being harmed by some animals, how is it that many are afraid of some particular animals[example: many are afraid of seeing a cockroach and they are clueless as to why they are afraid]
- how does the inclination towards certain food happen
- how does inclination towards certain behavior[being kind, cruel, etc] occur
- how is it that only a few people have the thirst for real knowledge while others blissfully ignore it

the intellect not only evolves but also gets conditioned by the impressions and the depth of it...evolution is over janmas...its a long process...its a very complicated process ...however no matter how long it takes, there exists an end point for this evolution when the state of reality is realized....

[kallol]

Om.

Namaste

Thanks for the wonderful information and also the patience. It helped me expand my understanding also.

Now I was thinking about the right way to put it up. What is the right question that is bugging me ?

If I see the evolution has happened from inert (so called) 5 elements to human.

The evoulution went from single cell to complex human being with lots of intelligence. The DNA changed, the course changed and it is more like an uncontrolled in micro sense but controlled in macro sense.

The movement from mono cell to human had that incorporation of learning, changing, evolving, stabilizing and then again changing so on on and so forth. A huge amount of intelligence is playing a role in this. Is the entire intelligence - internal from the beginning ? That is, did the mono cells already had that intelligence ? Or it is external ?

How it is guided through the journey of changes to human being ? who is controlling the changes and how ?

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

Namaste

Thanks for putting forward your thoughts which led to this discussion...

"If I see the evolution has happened from inert (so called) 5 elements to human."
If you are referring to the human materialistic body, then yes. However the subtle elements along with other entities and the 5 Maha Bhuta have evolved from the principle three gunas.

"The evolution went from single cell to complex human being with lots of intelligence. The DNA changed, the course changed and it is more like an uncontrolled in micro sense but controlled in macro sense. "

Yes, very well put.

"A huge amount of intelligence is playing a role in this. Is the entire intelligence - internal from the beginning ? That is, did the mono cells already had that intelligence ? Or it is external ?"
Paramathma is often defined as "ANor ANiya Mahato Mahima" He is present in the smallest of the particles as the fundamental building particle and is the force that defines, binds, controls,sustains and destroys the biggest of the big...everything that exists in this universe is present in Him and He is present in everything inside and beyond...

lets again get back to the computer example which we discussed sometime back...lets take the term "pixel" on a electronic screen...every pixel has a RGB value...these pixels when defined together by an "intelligent algorithm" gives a shape, color and defines the features of an entity...now there are two kinds of knowledge-intelligence present at this level
- the internal intelligence that defines the R G B value and the self boundary value to be inherent in every pixel
- the external intelligence that defines the shape, color and features of an entity that must be represented on a screen using the smaller pixels...
on the similar lines, every cell will have inherent level of internal intelligence in it where the Paramathma resides as the fundamental block of a materialistic fundamental block
and then there exists a greater external intelligence which defines the complex entity from outside

as the beautiful Narayana sukta says
Yachcha kinchid jagat sarvam drusyathe sruyathe bhi vaa,
Antharbahischa tatsarva vyapya narayana sthitha.

Every possible entity that exists in this universe that can be perceived[seen, heard etc]
Every possible thing that is inside and outside, all of that which exists is surrounded and is present in Narayana

its only because He is present in everything and everything is under Him, the entire system, which looks autonomous although is very carefully and completely controlled, functions as it functions...

As Sri Vaasudeva very beautifully says in Bhagavad Gita [7.7]

Mayi sarwam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva

Everything that exists is connected to Me like the pearls on a string...

"How it is guided through the journey of changes to human being ? " can you please elaborate a bit more

[kallol]

Om

Best Wishes.

Your answer provides me to correlate and opens up a new thought to approach this phenomenon of the movement from mono cell to human being.

However, not sure that every time it will be human being or different. Is human being - by chance or by design ?

If by design, then the path to it is defined or undefined ?

This part, still requires some stimuli from you.

Another point.

As consciousness does not directly take part in the activities, though it does through many manifestations, is it possible that these 5 elements play a significant role in the evolution - as you mentioned external intelligence ?

Thanks and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

"Is human being - by chance or by design ? "

The short answer is definitely by design..lets get into the detailed one..

the entire hierarchy of materialistic entities which have an existence in this framework called universe is very well defined and accurately designed...this framework of Prakruthi consists of a strong righteous protocol called "dharma" and these set of rules are applied inside Prakruthi depending on the dynamic parameters which come along the entity that needs materialistic birth..lets understand in detail...

starting from the single cell micro organisms to the most advanced materialistic body of Chatur-mukha Bramha, the hierarchy is very well defined...lets take the materialistic human body for our case study for better understanding

The term "human body" is an complex object which has multiple sets of sub classes and variables in it
Complex object : Human Body
- Class Gender
Variable Gender Difference : Exists
Variable Gender Value : [Male/Female]
- Class Dimensions
- Sub Class Height
- Sub Class Minimum
- Sub Class Maximum
- Class Weight
.....
- Class Color
- Sub Class Skin
- Sub Class Hair
- Sub Class Eyes
.....
......
- Class Strengths
- Class Weakness
- Class Organs
- Sub Class Sense
- .......

Many nested classes and sub classes are well defined and the leaf level sub class will have variables
The variables are either set to
- binary values [Example - Tail: Yes-Exists/No-Does not exist]
- definition values [Example - Gender : Male/Female]
- regular values with ranges [Example - Color of eyes : Black]

This architecture is very well designed and based on different combinations the term "feature" is defined too.

Such definition and design blueprint is already laid out for all kinds of entities in this framework[Sri Vishnu Purana enumerates different kinds of species and categories them systematically]. The values that will be input into each of these classes, sub classes and the variables is decided by the most complicated algorithm which Paramathma has implemented based on the righteous protocol of "Dharma" and the set of parameters every entity brings in...

shall continue in the next post...

[kallol]

Om
Namaste

Will look forward to next post

It is interesting to note that human being is by design. Again as human being being the only loka where the state of mind can be changed i.e. it has combination of enjoyment of fruits of karma and also change the state of mind. Rest as I know are only designed for enjoyment of the karma fruits. When you say evolution will reach state of Bramha, is it that human will become more knowledgeable and intelligent ? or something else

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

continuing...

The most important parameters every Jeeva carries from one materialistic body to another is the "paapah and punyah karma phala"...the ledger that has details about the previous actions and the related results' definitions which the Jeeva will experience partially or fully after getting embedded in the next body...

A very complicated data structure and an even more complicated algorithm under the protocol of Dharma are used to choose the kind and assign the values to every materialistic body..
The subtle elements like mind, intellect etc however "resume" from the previously "conditioned and evolved state"...once the subtle elements are embedded inside a particular materialistic body, the evolution of intellect continues either in the positive direction or negative direction...

This framework called "materialistic body" influences the conditioning and evolution of subtle elements in a very strong way..

"When you say evolution will reach state of Bramha, is it that human will become more knowledgeable and intelligent ? or something else"
we have a fundamental differentiation that must be strictly made to understand things ...
human - is defined with respect the materialistic body[excluding subtle elements of Jeeva and the Aatma]
JeevaAatma - which is the subtle elements + Aatma[instance of Paramathma]

When a Jeeva is assigned a human body which it has earned from its previous actions, this human body framework has hardware that helps and supports the Jeeva tremendously when compared to other lower forms of materialistic bodies...

The physical structure of cells at all levels provides more support for the subtle elements to explore and evolve.. the intellect which enters a human body has the hardware setup to make itself more knowledgeable and intelligent...however its left to the mind and the environment in which it will exist to determine if the intellect will gain better knowledge or waste yet another life...

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

Yes every action contributes towards the different aspects of the karma which has different parameters like ego and desire - increases, decreases and keeps it as it is.

The residual karmaphal decides which of the 14 lokas it will get attached to and when.

Cells remaining the same, combination and evolution due to particular usage pattern (cognitive, ML, AI, etc) decides on the intelligence and correlated performance ability.

Based on the loka, HW framework capability varies and thus the intelligence and performance ability.

It has been quite an useful and meaningful discussion and knowledge sharing. Thank you for sharing these so valuable insights.

Love and best wishes

[SanathanaDharma]

Namaste,

Pleasure to share the knowledge with you and thanks for putting forward thought provoking questions

Sarwam Sri Vaasudeva Krishnaarpanamastu

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

Just to keep all discussion in this thread regarding the same subject, my next question.

We have a white light coming from sun. This white light comprises of 7 colours (VIBGYOR). Each have their own frequency and wavelength or can be also different photons.

Today what we are, is because of this white light, will it be same if it was only yellow light or green light or if any of the components (out of VIBGYOR) was removed ?

Is the intelligence and evolution linked to the type of light ? Does these different components contribute to different aspects of our evolution ?

Thanks and best wishes

[Dutta]

Om

Namaste

Just to keep all discussion in this thread regarding the same subject, my next question.

We have a white light coming from sun. This white light comprises of 7 colours (VIBGYOR). Each have their own frequency and wavelength or can be also different photons.

Today what we are, is because of this white light, will it be same if it was only yellow light or green light or if any of the components (out of VIBGYOR) was removed ?

Is the intelligence and evolution linked to the type of light ? Does these different components contribute to different aspects of our evolution ?

Thanks and best wishes
namaste
VIBGYOR is the pattern of every light be with fire sun moon or bulb . But this seven wavelength pattern is not new in Vedic period . Of course I wonder with the speed of WhatsApp which is more than light but vedas still have put the challenge with the speed of mind .
comming to new inventions vedmantras were seen in space by rishis naming them mantradrushta . I don’t think scientist working on it .
we are planning day to day our body routine , ever any scientist is supposed to work on soul journey ?
jai Sri Krsna

[SanathanaDharma]

Namaste,


Very interesting question.
Light as we understand today is an electromagnetic radiation[energy], whose information[color, brightness, etc] package [maatra], which is derived from a Maha Bhuta called "Agni", can be sensed by a sensor[gochara indriya] called eyes in human beings.
The sensor in humans have the limited capacity to only capture the data falling on it and does not technically interpret it. Its the powerful combination of intellect and mind which interpret this data and make meaning out of it.


Any energy that is emitted from a materialistic entity is captured by the sensor and interpreted/used/consumed by subtle elements in our body.


The interpretation and usage of this energy packets varies when different sensor+subtle element combinations.
For example: When the same light energy hits a plant, the Chlorophyll[sensor in a plant] absorbs or captures the energy packets with information, and Chloroplast is the place where the light energy gets converted into chemical energy[Photosynthesis]. Due to the very low "intellect+mind level" present in plants[There is a very well defined hierarchy], simple operations like only conversion of energy from one form to another is performed by the plants' intellect and mind.


The point here being, its the same light which falls on our eyes as well as the plants but due to the complicated structure of every materialistic entity, the way the energy produced by the Maha Bhutas is used or interpreted or consumed is different.


Everything defined has a meaning and a purpose. White light, the different colors, everything is defined with clear meaning and purpose. If things do change[which only the Creator can change], then there will be a different result.


"Today what we are, is because of this white light, will it be same if it was only yellow light or green light or if any of the components (out of VIBGYOR) was removed ?"


To answer your first question, yes things will definitely be different, however as I mentioned, the structure which we see today is the result of a design. Its not the other way round. The design of an energy light is made such that it results in a structure which is white light that contains other colors inside it.


"Is the intelligence and evolution linked to the type of light ? "


Everything in this universe is interlinked as this entire structure or the framework is the result of a design of One Supreme Inexhaustible Infinite Energy that is spread across the framework. White Light which is visible, is used to describe the characteristics of "Saatvika Guna". Saatviks Guna is the source of the principle[tattva] called "mind". However "buddhi" or the principle[tattva] called intellect takes its birth from "Raajasika Guna". Mind and the intellect which act together and appear almost inseparable, are directly under the influence of light. Evolution of mind and intellect definitely have a link to light both directly and indirectly. However, its not the only factor as other factors too have a great impact.


"Does these different components contribute to different aspects of our evolution ?"


The way this materialistic structure is defined, every component definitely contributes. The different colors of light have different impact on the way things are interpreted. Evolution of buddhi also gets a fair amount of influence from the color of light. Certain color combinations may provide a particular type of impact on an intellect+mind that is at a particular state of conditioning and may differ in the type of impact they will have on another intellect+mind at a different state of conditioning. Evolution towards reality is influenced by many sources and factors and light is definitely one among-st that.


The way things have shaped up is a result of a very complicated design and Light plays a prominent role and definitely has a great influence on the evolution of subtle elements.

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

Thanks SD for the insights.

The more I think of the light, the more I get fascinated. Think of the fact that nothing comes from the lightyears far away stars to us, except for the light.

This light is the connect with each other in the universe (apart from the gravitational pull - but it is limited) which has far reaching capabilities. The light reflected from earth shows the nature of the earth. That light is different from the light that is falling on it. The light from earth is falling on the moon, mars, etc.

Same is the case of light from jupiter, saturn, moon, etc on us. The impacts on us are different based on the constituents and also the position.

Eye is the receiver of the light. The processing is done by mind-intellect system. Does anything come out of us. NO. What happens to the light what goes in ?

Does that get converted into something ? A part which my mind can immediately resolve and some get absorbed in my brain structure. Interesting !!!

Then again, this light is the only thing which has a continuum from the start of the universe. Is some part of the light we see is from that age ?

Muni- Rishis meditating deep into the life and creation getting into the atoms, birth of universe, and beyond that - how did that knowledge come to us ? Is it this light ?

Of course, the mind being constantly moving through the different endless bodies, might also have gone through all of the different phenomenons and different bodies from the beginning of the universe and beyond, would have acquired the God knowledge.

Each of the 5 elements possibly need more indepth understanding.

Love and best wishes