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yajvan
06 June 2007, 10:23 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste ,
our previous post allowed us to have a conversation on lucid dreaming ...good conversation!

I thought to pick up the conversation with Manuel and continue.

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Hello Manuel
The experience of THAT for you was impersonal - as you mention, non-being some would say Full being. You have also been clear on saying you did not enjoy the impersonal part - saying you disliked it is putting it mildly.
In the beginning it is a new experience. On the Zen side they may say emptiness [this is way outta my level of knowledge and is my side note in this post], on the Vedanta side, they may say Fullness... But in the beginning it is the separation of activity from stillness, action from pure inaction of SELF.


Manuel replys...

"I would say that it is fair to say it's both emptiness and fullness, but the words can't touch it at all. Those approximations sounds "Logical" from HERE, in THERE they are meaningless."

During this time , how was your interactions with others? How did you 'see' them?

"There were NO OTHERS, there were no objects and most importantly no subject at all. You no longer exist, and what is left is not the world either. Its impossible for somebody else to be aware, because YOU ARE AWARENESS. Sorry I cant put this more clearly. Its really something you have to experience, not "understand" it.

Did you work at the time? How did that go?

"No. In fact, what "brought me back" is that "I" began to work at a computers shop . Attending lots of people daily and talking/ interacting with other people I could land again in this familiar world of subjects and objects."

Did you think much of God/Isvara at that time? (Manuel's caps not mine)

"NOT AT ALL. You see. Everything you think is you. Everything you perceive is you. Everything absolutely everything that happens is you.
There is no possible separation of anything at all. In other words, everything that you think (like god) are just words. In THERE, those words lack any functional meaning."

I asked John a few more questions on God, I said:
God created man in His own image...how can this be ? This must be just a symbol, a metaphor for something else.

"Empty words. If Im not mistaken those are Christian words. Pretty, maybe even inspiring, but meaningless, nevertheless"

I continued the thought:
We have His same nature ( this is called swarupa). Just like the spark of a fire, has the same nature of the fire itself. Each individual soul (jiva) is a Spark of Brahman ( this Totality, this Infinite Universal Self we discuss). Its not saying we look or walk like Him, our bodies take His shape, yet His nature(pure consciousness) is our existence. Your experience was one part of this experience?

Your experience is THE TOTALITY OF EXPERIENCE, you are BRAHMAN, not you the human, but THAT what is left when the human is gone.


pranams, ( more to follow)

yajvan
06 June 2007, 03:25 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Continuing the conversation ( we are closely approaching the end).

I have also noted Manuel's communication to me during this time has brought clarity to many ideas I have read in the Upanishads and am glad the conversations had taken place.

One thing that is of interest is the remains of other levels of existence within Manuel ( and with others that permanently stay in Kavayla.) This is noted as lesh-avida, or the remains of ignorance. My teacher used the analogy of a butter ball in ones hands. When its placed down, your hands still has this film, the remains. Like that, there is the remains of ignorance, otherwise one would be completely absorbed into the Absolute ( as I understand it).

I asked Manuel,
The rishi's say our bodies ( and this earth, rock, liquid, gas, space, leaf, animal, vegetable or mineral) is condensed consciousness (same as they say in quantum physics). And most of everything is really space ( my favorite element, akasha) from the atomic to the universal.

Manuel responds,
"I like the "condensed consciousness" concept. But then again, in THERE even appropriate, logical words and concepts are seeing as merely utterations without content. THAT is so powerful that renders all thinking as illusory. I can say that we live immerse in a cloud of thinking that DOESNT ALLOW US TO SEE."

I continued,
They ( scientists) even wonder how all this ( matter) stays together , because there is so much space between atoms. This is where they talk of the various forces in physics that I am not knowledgeably of, that bind this matter together. That said, we are miniature HIMs. "Him" is like that sound Hreem - all encompassing.

"That sounds beautiful. I wont say its worthless (nor other concepts or ideas) but that its empty if you are THERE."

I continue,
Its like another word Hamsa. A name for a Swan - they give HIM this
name , as one of beauty; As the swan also floats on the water ( life, existence) without getting wet ( or pulled into this existence) or without the possibility of any blemish. Just as your state , experiencing The 'Witness' from within and all 'life' was happening outside of you.

"Mm, I would say that "life" was an idea, "outside" was an idea. What is left is THAT. The very same THAT that you are experiencing right now, but without all those words and concepts around."

I pose a different approach, same concept:
When one gets established in the experience you had, then one is
untouched by actions, like the swan floating on top of the water. He is on top of the relative field of life, yet he gets 'unwet' from the waters/turbulence below. Was this the experience?

"Yes. In my words is not because you are unwet, but because there is no YOU. How could you be untouched if you never existed in the first place? If anything, THAT ceases to identificate itself with experiences, in that sense is not touched by them."

Some closing considerations I posed:
Your actions in this state, when fully matured are HIS actions ( over time you are not bound action-reaction - Your experience, once stable, 'changes the rules' or really goes to another level of rule making - Karmic actions do not bind you, no vasanas ( or impressions that go from life to life) become like a roasted seed, it cannot sprout new actions ( as the rishi's say); You become a free-agent of the universe. This is the delightful part of why I pursue this path..non binding actions, no return to this plane of existence, and the ability to do the work of the cosmos; very attractive to me - I must of touched this desire before somehow.

"Those are happy feelings/ideas"




pranams

yajvan
07 June 2007, 08:23 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

continuing...


Thank you Manuel for taking the time and addressing the questions... I can see where some things I say are 'one legged' as the rishi's say, that is, I do not speak from experience, but read the same exact things you wrote e.g. you are awareness...

Manuel's reply:
"yet.... EVERY MOMENT YOU HAVE BEEN AWARE! tell me if this is not strange. I mean, I know what you mean, and I also know how deeply absurd it sounds to "try" to be aware... confusing, isnt it? yet, pristinely clear once you realize it."


Yep ... makes sense, yet as I pursue my spiritual path, this has not been an experience that lasts for any length of time so I am not grounded in this. My interest is to prepare for this, but as you say talk'n about it does in no way equal the real experience.

Manual replys,
"the only way I can put it is to say that is like if a blind individual (who "knows" everything about light: waves and particles, number of colors, wavelengths etc) suddenly SEE."

I ask Manuel,
Also , I have practiced be attentive to hear and now, and attentive of being attentive!!! I seem to not keep this level of awareness for long periods, yet I consider myself a focused individual ... Any additional ideas for me? A wack in the side of the head? :>)

Manuel sugests,
"maybe you are trying too hard!???????? it is not about trying to, but letting it happen. its always there, you are always THERE, you have never been anything but THAT"


pranams, and a few more posts on this will finish it up.

yajvan
08 June 2007, 08:39 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Continuing Manuel's conversation.....

Manuel uses two words below:
vipassana or see things as they really are, and satoris from satori a state of intuitive illumination . Thought to define them here and not distract from the writing below.

Namaste Manuel,
Various spiritual endeavors (called upasana) leads to sadyo-mukti or an immediate experience of liberation ( of THAT). Other upasana's lead to krama-mukti or gradual liberationů So, you as a sadhaka (one that practices) or practiced upasana, experienced THATů. can you think back of your practices? Other then meditations, was there anything you think was a key driver or upasana that triggered your experience?

Manuel's reply:

"As long as I can remember, I always wanted to know everything, what was the world, what was I, why is there anything at all, etc. Everything else seemed of little importance, I really wanted to know. That was the whole purpose of my life. I read a lot I believed in almost everything at some point. then I discovered vipassana, and meditated as often as possible, and I'm not talking necessarily about sitting meditation. I meditated always, in the car, in the bus stop, while reading, while talking while watching television, I tried to focus as hard as I could in ALL WHAT HAPPENS AT THIS EXACT MOMENT."

"None of that was enough, but I'm sure it helped. from time to time I experienced small satoris, that lasted a few hours, but they were more emotional that experiential in the sense of the quality of being awake."

"Years later I found I AM THAT, by Nisargadatta, and it become my "bible" regarding all this things. it was exactly what I needed I guess. Still, the words were still words, the understanding was still intellectual, I believed I UNDERSTOOD but I was only believing another set of beliefs.
Then one day, it happened I woke up, I AM THAT was written JUST FOR ME, because I WAS THE ONLY ONE, there were no others.... this came as a flash, without warnings, and it changed my life forever."

I continue and add another concept:
Also, in THAT state, they say there is no time... was that your experience? And if no time , where you able to view 'time' forwards and backwards ? I know there is only NOW, so if there is only NOW, then the past-present-future has no walls between them... did you have any experience that would lead you to believe that NOW is without walls? and you had the opportunity ( whether you took advantage of it our not) to look at time in this fashion?

"NOOO there is no time, meaning, THERE IS NO TIME! time is an illusion! Past and future are constructs of your mind! completely useless while you are THAT! I know there is only NOW, so if there is only NOW, NOOO past and future are fictions! NOW NOW NOW NOW all the other things are ideas without content!"


pranams

Kaos
08 June 2007, 10:29 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Continuing Manuel's conversation.....

"NOOO there is no time, meaning, THERE IS NO TIME! time is an illusion! Past and future are constructs of your mind! completely useless while you are THAT! I know there is only NOW, so if there is only NOW, NOOO past and future are fictions! NOW NOW NOW NOW all the other things are ideas without content!"





The past is gone, the future is but a dream, this very moment is quickly turning into the past. Even this very moment is but an illusion.


O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything which has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.


- Bhagavad Gita (7-26)

In His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's commentary he states that: "Even if someone is perfected by realization of impersonal Brahman or localized Paramatma, he cannot possibly understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, without being in Krsna consciousness.

yajvan
08 June 2007, 07:27 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Concluding remarks...
this is the last post on this subject as we give it a rest.
Manuel and I have been under the weather as they say in the USA, at the time of this post, so that is where the conversation starts.

Manuel and I have been talking for a bit and I ( in this last post) explain my understanding to Manuel about his experience... Remember my knowledge is 'one legged' as the sages say, buy holds water from the standpoint that I do not make this stuff up! that said, this last installment

Manuel responds to me:

"Hello again,
thanks for the get well, please get well you too. I have to tell you, now that I have been with this problem (illness) I have had sometime to enter THAT from a different point of view.

I have a small daughter, thats all that matters to me, being able to spend time with her, as I see life as the most possible precious gift that anyone could offer. Still, if I face the possibility of ceasing to exist (theoretically I hope). I can easily get in touch with THAT in an almost pleasurable way. Why almost? because the fear of death is there. This is my last frontier I guess, and I have to tell you, I really love to be "just" a human, with all its conscious limits, and even with all its destructive power.

My communcation to Manuel,

Thank you for the note... I see much is going on in your life... I think this is 'normal' of most beings. We live in the world of action/diversity that is cuddled in silence...

Re: you and THAT... I have had time to ponder your experience. You are blessed to get a glimpse of THAT.... Yet there is a few things I think you may want to read/entertain so at some point when you wish to enter THAT ,there is balance and stability.

Again , my knowledge is flawed as I have not had the profound experience you had, but I do have the luxury of being taught by one who lives this experience all the time, an enlightened being. He is not my personal guru yet I have spent months/years listening to him and gives practical knowledge. This is complimented by years of study of this...But again 'painted cakes do not satisfy hunger' - that is, words/information is not enough for this great state of Being... But that said, let me see if I can ( from my humble perspective) make an observation.

Let me do it sequentially so I can collect my thoughts and then you can poke at any one item that may/may not resonate with you in Truth.

First, you are blessed to have this experience... One only 'earns' what one deserves.... You 'earned' this experience. What is this experience ? Its called naishkarmyam - or a non-action, SELF realized state. As you mentioned all was awarenessin there, all was THAT... 'THAT' is the SELF.

When this experience does not go away, then its called Cosmic Consciousness. All pervading, all this is THAT, like your experience, for the time you had, but still with lesh-avidya ( some ignorance remained, in your case it was that fear) A key tenet of being completely absorbed in THAT, is one is completely fear-less. Why? Because one gains more courage? Nope... Its because there is no one other then YOU, so who is there to fear? Yet, Even in the Upanishads, it discusses the 'fear' the SELF had in the very beginning of this creation, yet came to the same realization - what is there to fear if everything is ME? And the fear went away.

Yet, the experience of SELF, albeit is profound, its not the end-state, its not the final level of evolution for the individual But the basis for cosmic life, perfect bhakti and the ability to do the work of the Supreme, if one chooses; perfect knowledge, as all is based on this level of Being.

This state, is also called Turiya, or the 4th state ( wake, dream, sleep are the other 3) - this 4th is the underlying of all other states that are in the relative field of life. You lived the 4th state.

Yet, again, there is another state of consciousness that is based upon this 4th state and its called God Consciousness. This is where one sees, smells, tastes, hears the world as His creation and marvels in this Creation.

Why then do I bother bringing this up? Because 'That' , that you experienced allows one to see the difference between non-action (naiskarmyam) that perfect, infinite Silence ( THAT, SELF)
and IT being distinct from the field of activity. This is the progression, first to have that distinction of the two...SELF is no activity, perfect balance (sama) and to separate IT from that which binds the field of activity; this is the non-attachment the sages have talked about for eons.

Many read this instruction incorrectly and thought of making a 'mood' of being non-attached, or renouncing. What is one renouncing? That I am not what I see ( the relative field of life) , that I am the SELF...So I 'renounce' the notion that I am an American, a Californian, a Democrat, a Liberal a _______________ ( fill in the blank e.g. husband, child, programmer, sanyas, sisya, lover, hater,etc)

The next level of unfoldment is to bring BOTH the silence of SELF, and activity together - it is uniting SELF with all levels of activity...this is God Consciousness. Seeing/being an extension of this Creation, of Brahma, of all of this.
This point is the fundamental building block of additional unfoldment/evolution is the separation of SELF from all activity, from the 3 gunas .. It is they ( tri-guna) that carries on this Universe. We are associated with THAT, pure awareness, we are not the actions. This was your experience, the seperation.

And there is another level called Brahman Consciousness.... I will write of this, if you have interest. Point to be made, this whole creation , this virat, all this, is nothing other then the SELF - you know this better then anyone....yet, because of HIS 'grace', HE brings us into this full unfoldment a level at a time. Why so?

So we can stabilize the experience not only into our awareness , but into the 'village of the senses' - our nervous system. As you said, you seen things differently, this needs to be stabilized and made into everyday life. This is HIS 'grace' to us... The 'runway' to fully integrating the Absolute Being of life and the relative field of life. 200% of living.

In your experience, you where 'thrown' into THAT, into the seperation. Only you know why - and the management of this is at a higher levels of intelligence in this creation.

Manuel Please let me know if any of this is of use. Again all words, but all words my friend are anchored in Pranava (Om) and come to us via the 5 pranas ...and that of speech, come from vak, owned by agni; the first Hymm in the Rk Ved is dedicated to him...
Its says,
agnimile purohitam yajnasya devamrtvijam hortaram ratnadhatamam Agni, I adore, who stands before the Lord, the god who sees the Truth, the warrior, strong disposer of delight.
[Rishi is Madhuchchhandas]

Agni is Divine Will - it is by HIS inspiration in all of us that we begin the path to FULLNESS; His Divine Will , for us to seek SELF. No one will be left behind.


Manuels note to me,
Be well my friend, dont try to get THERE so hard, it is important but it is A LOT MORE IMPORTANT to live like a human being, hold your moments in here as the best treasure of existence."


Manuel continued writing to me for about a year... we have not talked recently, I am in hopes all is well.

pranams,