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markandeya 108 dasa

25 May 2019, 09:08 PM

Hare Krsna Waterfall,

These discussions have been going on for quite some time within Hare Krsna circles, at least about 25 years and as far as I know there is no consensus or agreement to how we came into conditions of Birth and death, did we turn away, this cant be true if we are to accept Bhagavad Gita 8.21.

Partly the confusion due to mixing creationist ideas from Christian Theology with the creation of Dharma traditions, in short they simple do not mix and thats why there is no consensus or agreement. Christian Theology of creator God out there is man made and offers no real answers and is based on mundane sense perception and is in opposition to the purana vidyas, which transcends the senses into the supramental level of Buddhi Yoga, which is in the subtle.

But what do we begin as?

Lets say 10 souls falls from the spirituel world.

What happens then?

Do we then get 10 universes with 1 inhabitant (Brahma) or do we get 1 universe with 10 inhabitants?

We get 10 universes, where 10 brahmA's govern each individual universe, each jiva.

BrahmA deva is key to understanding and resolving the mystery, BrahmA as I understand is another term used for the citta in the narratives of the puranas. Also one important thing to consider is that all the shastra are spoken from the enlightened or awakened states. To make a simple thread to give some context in the Pali Suttas there is the story of the man shot by the hunters arrow, and the other 14 unanswerable questions from Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, so while we are in ignorance these questions simple cant be answered, it becomes a waste of time. I gave a refrence to the pali suttas as its one of the only sources I know that talks about certain questions that cant be answered and we often spend time trying to answer these questions, which end up being a distraction.

BrahmA also appears in the Pali suttas, unfortunately due to the Christian Theologians that Created Hinduism and other isms they made a break and division and split the dharma traditions, where in sanatana dharma there is non by natural discourse, so its not a problem to cross reference if need be, this is quite simple but is made complex due to sectarian and religious identification, which again is not natural to the essence of the texts or the core of ones being ~in the liberated state, Karma, Dharma, Artha and Moksha, all align into one being within the purified citta, which acts as the medium between this world and the transcendent, they are not mundane concepts that come into any ism sectarian, religious or sentient state. To understand these things may need some cross referencing because at the moment cosmology has not be well developed in the translations and understanding the basic concept of the citta is very useful.

BrahmA is either in Ignorance, creating states of being through the gunas or modes of nature, sattva~goodness, rajas~ passion and tamas~ignorance, or he is awakened once he has understood his own limitation and seeks out MahaVishnu.

Each jiva or individual atomic spark is a BrahmA, so each individual person is the creator of their own universe jagat. According to Puranas BrahmA remains in illusion until he wakes up Sri Vishnu, the BrahmA becomes an expansion of Paramatma as Prajapati, then there is divine creation in the cosmos, there is nothing mundane in the texts, the cosmos is not the outer empirical universe, the system is different from the dharma point of view, its beyond the senses.

In the images of the puranas one can see MahaVishnu with another form of Garbhodaksayi Vishnu expanding from each pore of his body, and from this a lotus is born from his navel and BramA sits in the lotus.

An external God or creator God has no role in the puranas, as Paramatma is known as antariyami, or inner controller, Vishnu as Paramatma is then controlling BrahmA as ishwara and creating the causes for liberation in the states of being that bind one to repeated cycle of birth and rebirth of states of being. This is how the puranas should be read, not as external creation theories in the outside universe, or that the jiva has been caste down or rejected or turned away from the Supreme, nor that the mundane life is somehow the lila of Supreme, these do not apply. To fully understand one has to be fully enlightened and awakened, and to get to that state requires surrender to guru, which is not an individual person, individual statesmanship is rejected in veda.

markandeya 108 dasa

26 May 2019, 05:43 AM

Hare Krsna Waterfall,

Some things to consider about Goloka, Go means cow and loka is sometimes translated by iskcon as a planet, a better word maybe abode, this is for simplistic explanation, so its the abode of cows, where govinda, gopal names of Krsna in relation to surabhi cows is the cowherd and protector of cows plays with cows in open fields and pastures with his friends and closest associates. The associates in this abode are usually rishis and great devotees.

The cows in this realm are surabhi cows, these cows are aspects of the divine mother in higher states far beyond anything physical, go meaning cow and mata as mother, gomata, when the citta or atomic mind is expanding or involuting into more refined and expansive spiritual realms or lokas in the ascent or journey upwards, upwards here does not mean upwards in outer space, but upwards in the inner space, more refined levels of consciousness, they are in states of samadhi, or absorption's. It may not be that one becomes a cow or takes a form of a cow as the same as we see in the external world, the cow we see in the external world can represent the cow but the surabhi cows in goloka are experienced in a different way. Mind has already transcended or gone beyond the physical, its not a projection that is the same as the outer forms, these putter forms represent just the tip of what lies beyond everything in much more subtle domains of conscious experience.

The surabhi cows are more to do with rasa, they provide in experience an ocean of blissful milk. I read in your comments in one of the threads that an animal cannot be self aware that it is an animal. These types of forms in the higher lokas are not the same as the forms that we see in the outside world, they are spiritual bodies that only know devotion to krsna, and from their devotion they experience bliss and absorption and ever deepening lila or pastimes.

I do not want a cow body?

And Krishna do not seem to want one either?

So do we all have a body like Krishna (two legs, two arms and one head)?

There is a lot of talk about spiritual form or swarupa, i think there does not to be any real need to be to concerned about these things, if one becomes absorbed into these higher states of divine bliss there will not be any consideration of what we look like or become.

Waterfall

26 May 2019, 06:49 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

I was hoping for an answer from you:

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=964809#964809

Maybe you two could have a great conversation about things (my understanding is very limited, so...).

I started out asking these question to Krishna.com:

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35611

And have just recieved this answer:

Hare Krishna,

I think you have some incorrect understanding. I have never heard that we get our own universe. We are put on some planet to start our journey of self discovery and purification. Lord Brahma is a very high position, not for some fallen soul. He is instated, appointed to start the universe. The scriptures say that if there is not a qualified Brahma, then He will take the post. It is stated that we have to go through all the species and work our way to human form, then we are responsible for our next life because karma clicks in. There are unlimited fallen souls and unlimited universes, populated by only 1/4 th the amount of souls that have never fallen. Krishna places us here to learn our lesson to not be envious of Him and to purify our misused independence. We can choose, once in human form, to go to the higher planets or Vaikuntha planets, or hopefully, Krishna Loka, so we don't have to go through this again. I hope this helps some. One thing Srila Prabhpuada said was that we should not worry how we got here, but worry how to get out of here.

Sincerely,

I was not sure about their view on Brahma:

http://www.krishna.com/topic-term/brahma

Is Brahma a fallen soul? Do we all (all the fallen souls) begin as a demigod (Brahma)? I was just not sure about their view on this, but accordingly to this answer Brahma most be someone from the spirituel world who have not fallen. Or Krishna himself: "The scriptures say that if there is not a qualified Brahma, then He will take the post."

But what do we begin as then?

I would like to understand things from the beginning.

We have Brahma (who is not a fallen soul) and Brahma creates something. But what?

If Brahma creates a human and a cow, then there is a problem, because why should you begin as a cow and I begin as a human?

With regard to the fall then you point to Bhagavad Gita 8.21:

https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/8/verse/21

https://www.asitis.com/8/21.html

I do not understand how this cancel out a fall?

Just for the record.

It is a long time ago that I read Bhagavad Gita - as it is.

I read it "27" years ago and have forgotten most of it, so...

The book that I have believed in is this book:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

But there is a decription of the universe in it that I have a problem with, so now I am taking a step back from it and is open for another understanding of things.

I am not used to many of the words you use:

Dharma traditions
purana vidyas
Buddhi Yoga
BrahmA deva
citta
shastra
Pali Suttas
Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta
sanatana dharma
Artha and Moksha
MahaVishnu
jagat
Sri Vishnu
Paramatma as Prajapati
antariyami
ishwara

Some of the words I can understand...purana...scripture...but many of them I would have to look up. Just so you know.

Do you think that we reincarnate as animals? I have never understod the meaning of that? According to this book (Toward the Light) we only reincarnate as human beings and that makes sense to me.

But as I have said then I am open to another view on thngs. Because I have a problem with the description of the universe in this book. Maybe there are other problems to...

I would like to understand this picture:

http://www.krishna.com/description-goloka

I think it is a beatyfull picture, but I would not like to have a cow body, so...?

Ps. I have just seen that you have come with an answer to this question. Thank you for that. It is very interesting and new to me.

markandeya 108 dasa

28 May 2019, 06:16 AM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

I am not used to many of the words you use:

Dharma traditions
purana vidyas
Buddhi Yoga
BrahmA deva
citta
shastra
Pali Suttas
Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta
sanatana dharma
Artha and Moksha
MahaVishnu
jagat
Sri Vishnu
Paramatma as Prajapati
antariyami
ishwara

Dharma traditions, these are naturally arising spiritual traditions across asia that deal with our inherent nature according to conscious laws, and pre existed across the Globe before Abrahamic faiths converted in masses and ruled via a one religion regime. Dharma in the simplest terms means our natural inherent nature that is not modified by man made laws or systems.

purana vidyas~ puranas can mean scriptures it can also mean ancient universal profound experiences of the mind awakening into the universal state, vidyas meaning the insight knowledge into the awakening mind of the profound states beyond the ordinary senses, many of the puranas deal with creation and the supra subtle cosmic realms, they are deeply esoteric

Buddhi Yoga~ is spiritual intellect that directly connects ones individual consciousness to the Supreme Whole to awaken it to the Supreme state

BrahmA deva~ The creator in the puranas and the pali suttas

citta~ mind, conscious centre, its also known as purana, citta plays a central role in whats bound or liberated. In Ancient times citta was known as a follower, it can follow two directions, the worldly way which is full of corruption and self empowered self ways or it can follow the inward level of universal awakening into supra and ultimate states of awakening. Citta plays the main central role in the sutra and puranic texts, its what expands into the profound and ultimately absorbs back into Ultimate Being or Para Brahman. Although minute in size, measuring 1 billionth the size of an the physical atom observed in modern science it has an unlimited potential once it starts to awaken.

shastra~ spiritual texts

Pali Suttas~collection of suttas or texts from the Theravada tradition that deals with subjects of samadhi, and one source of my practice and reference over the years that has helped me to understand both cosmology and development of samadhi. Sutta is pali for sutra, su and tra, simple translated as su meaning a transcendent being and tra as vibration, they mostly cover the union of subtle conditions in the mind being purified for complete connection with Absolute Truth, most sutras deal with vast cosmological spiritual bodies or divine compounds forms rupa that act in various ways to reveal its own Being.

Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta~ is the sutta which explains 14 main questions that simple cant be answered with the ordinary intellect and will become a hindrance if deliberated on to much, asking how we originally and why we fell into this condition is one of them.

sanatana dharma~ simple translation is the eternal nature or lore of awakening, and is mostly again do with the 3rd state of universal being and status quo which is directly governed unhindered by the 4th realm of consciousness known in Vedanta as Turiya among other name and forms, nama and rupa of divine quality above the mundane spheres of the conditioned senses, which is simple translated as pure divine consciousness ~ brahman

Artha and Moksha~ artha means essence, its a quality of citta when its awakened or in the process of awakening Moskha means liberated

MahaVishnu~ Vishnu is one aspect of Brahman or the Supreme reality that is preserving self realised knowledge and the status quo of the spiritual states, beyond or more subtle than the outward mundane reality of the 5 senses.

jagat~ here i am translating it as subtle universe of conscious being within the states of prajna, as different from the outside universe that we all share and see with the normal outgoing senses. According to all the yoga shastra and systems matter evolves from the subtle realms, not an external event.

Sri Vishnu~ Another term for vishnu when he is accompanied by sri or laxmi the feminine aspect of divine consciousness

Paramatma as Prajapati~paramatma is the supersoul that resides in the centre of the atom, atom here refer to anu or the atomic spark of the individual citta, when consciousness of the citta is in union with paramatma supersoul where there is equation of brahmA as the citta the creative potency of the BrahmA is guiding and creating purifying potency in the cosmos for ultimate liberation

antariyami~ this again is paramtama or supersoul at the heart of the citta, which is subtle power within the atomic Jiva

ishwara~ centre of the universe or controller of the universe all within the centre of the citta, not as an outside Godhead controlling outer phenomenon as per Christian Theology.

These are just the simplest and off the top of my head translations, I have wrote these in because maybe a future dates others may read and want to do some further research.

I will make another post so it wont be to long and attempt an answer at some of your other questions which I think are important to be developed and needs some changes in the current translations and hopefully support a clearer idea of the universal and transcendent systems which can develop in more subtle sadhanas.

Waterfall

28 May 2019, 03:18 PM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain things to me (and others).

I look forward to your next post.

markandeya 108 dasa

28 May 2019, 08:40 PM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

I am not an authority on this and all of this is exploring and growing into subtle cosmology, so take it as rough outlines and that is part of something that is developing and worth developing. Cosmology is vitally important, the vast majority of translated cosmology is wrong.

Also my studies on Srimad Bhagavatam is limited, I have mostly concentrated on Bhagavad Gita, few important slokas and some sutras and have always wanted to save Bhagavatam as deeper study when I get more time and retire. Its very deep over 18,000 slokas and within those slokas there are 250,000 thousand granthas which expand in devic abodes, so its no small subject and requires deep practice along side meditation on the slokas. Srimad Bhavatam as with all shastra is so beautiful, so profound, every sloka has so much depth, each word each syllable, what can us mere moratals do to explain it, but also there is a divine simplicity where each person can gain something not matter what level.

Essence of Srimad Bhagavatam is chatur Sloki all Srimad Bhagavatam is an expansion of these 4 sloka's.

SB 2.9.33

aham evāsam evāgre
nānyad yat sad-asat param
paścād ahaṁ yad etac ca
yo ’vaśiṣyeta so ’smy aham

Synonyms:

Translation:
Brahmā, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead.

SB 2.9.34

ṛte ’rthaṁ yat pratīyeta
na pratīyeta cātmani
tad vidyād ātmano māyāṁ
yathābhāso yathā tamaḥ

Synonyms:

Translation:
O Brahmā, whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness.

SB 2.9.35

yathā mahānti bhūtāni
bhūteṣūccāvaceṣv anu
praviṣṭāny apraviṣṭāni
tathā teṣu na teṣv aham

Synonyms:

Translation:
O Brahmā, please know that the universal elements enter into the cosmos and at the same time do not enter into the cosmos; similarly, I Myself also exist within everything created, and at the same time I am outside of everything.

SB 2.9.36

etāvad eva jijñāsyaṁ
tattva-jijñāsunātmanaḥ
anvaya-vyatirekābhyāṁ
yat syāt sarvatra sarvadā

Synonyms:

Translation:
A person who is searching after the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, must certainly search for it up to this, in all circumstances, in all space and time, and both directly and indirectly.

These four slokas are incredible deep, the translations are basic, indicating a certain level but has to be broadened and deepended along with ones sadhana. Some devotees get worked up about this because everything that Srila Prabhupada said has to be taken as literal. This goes against the way that Srimad Bhagavatam is spoken by Avadhuta Sukadeva Goswami, who was brahmavada speaking in para vak, or the highest Vedic speech which will always be expanding, so to make it literal defies the meaning and essence of Brahman always expanding, getting deeper and richer without any limit. Srila Prabhupada would not want to put a lid on it. We cant measure the depth of this with ordinary intellect, we have to surrender that intellect.

Hare Krishna,

I think you have some incorrect understanding. I have never heard that we get our own universe. We are put on some planet to start our journey of self discovery and purification. Lord Brahma is a very high position, not for some fallen soul. He is instated, appointed to start the universe. The scriptures say that if there is not a qualified Brahma, then He will take the post. It is stated that we have to go through all the species and work our way to human form, then we are responsible for our next life because karma clicks in. There are unlimited fallen souls and unlimited universes, populated by only 1/4 th the amount of souls that have never fallen. Krishna places us here to learn our lesson to not be envious of Him and to purify our misused independence. We can choose, once in human form, to go to the higher planets or Vaikuntha planets, or hopefully, Krishna Loka, so we don't have to go through this again. I hope this helps some. One thing Srila Prabhpuada said was that we should not worry how we got here, but worry how to get out of here.

Sincerely,

This is not surprising to me how they reply, its the general view that BrahmA is sitting on the edge of the outside external observable universe at a distance of certain amount of yojanas and is creating the universe and all living beings. This is mixing it to much with empirical scientific methods of studying the outer universe and basic Christian Theology of an external Creator God controlling and creating all phenomonon and all the individual jivas and living entities, ultimately both these man made theories deny free will and are not the subject of Vedanta or Srimad Bhagavatam but religious and educational conditioning is hard to overcome. But I have full faith and confidence due to the efforts that devotees put into sadhana and their dedication that at some point the tables will turn, it may take a few generations but it will come. Although some parts I can agree in principle

I will try to reply one something else which maybe of importance to align cosmology with conscious practices in another part of your messages in another post some time later.

Waterfall

31 May 2019, 09:10 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

I think you are doing a good job explaining things.

I just have one question because you say this:

This is not surprising to me how they reply, its the general view that BrahmA is sitting on the edge of the outside external observable universe at a distance of certain amount of yojanas and is creating the universe and all living beings.

Is it not Vishnu who creates the universe and then Brahma is created? I am not sure how to understand this:

http://www.krishna.com/topic-term/brahma

timetraveler

05 June 2019, 05:50 PM

Past life and future life are not so important as this life. How to live in the present life is paramount importance.

Many things are helpful and important, such as yoga, meditation, caring for the people and animals on the planet.

Meditation actually can teach everything, and when Brahma woke up, he began to meditate. Brahma woke up and there was darkness, and so he meditated until Vishnu explained everything.

Yes, you are correct, Vishnu created Brahma who then created the universe.

Brahma was born from a flower.

[Brahmâ] in that water situated on the whorl of the lotus could not discern the world and spying all around in the four directions he [thus] received his four heads. (Bhagavatam, 3.8.16)

[Brahmâ] in that water situated on the whorl of the lotus could not discern the world and spying all around in the four directions he [thus] received his four heads.(Bhagavatam, 3.8.17)

'Who am I, seated on top of this lotus? Wherefrom has it originated? There must be something in the water below. Being present here implies the existence of that from which it sprouted!'(Bhagavatam, 3.8.18)

So, meditating,

When he failed to achieve the object of his desire, the godhead gave up the endeavor and seated himself upon the lotus again to control with confidence, step by step, his breath, withdraw his mind and unify his consciousness in meditation.(Bhagavatam, 3.8.21)

The view of His hands, legs, jewels, flower garland and dress, derided the panorama of the green coral of the evening splendor of the sun over the great, golden mountain summits with their waterfalls and herbs, flowers and trees.(Bhagavatam, 3.8.24)

The totality of the three worlds in all its variety was, with the length and width of the measurement of His transcendental presence, covered by the beauty of the divine radiance of the ornaments that dressed His body. (Bhagavatam 3.8.25)

(Bhagavatam, Canto 3, Ch. 8 (http://bhagavata.org/canto3/chapter8.html))

Brahma was once cursed by Shiva, never to receive worship. This is why there are not many temples to Brahma. Very few, almost none.

Shiva is worshipped in Lingam, and Shiva and Vishnu both have many temples in all of India.

Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are also one, however. Together they came as one who is called Trimurti or Dattatreya.

In worshipping Datta, Brahma is also worshipped, as Datta is all three. And there are many temples to Datta.

God is formless, primarily. Taking form happens for our benefit, and to benefit the world.

Datta means 'gift,' and Dattatreya means 'Atri's gift', Sage Atri was his father, and Anasuya, which means 'without jealousy' was his Mother.

God gives himself to all who call on him.

Dattatreya did not have another name, although he is also known as Digambara, (who has the four directions as his clothing), and a few others

But as Dattatreya, God responds instantly..

Sri Datta Stavam is beautiful and refers to him as Smartrigami, (who repsonds instantly); it is very beautiful and worth looking up.

What is most important is this life. . . Many practices help...

Yoga, bhajans, meditation. . . Pranayama is wonderful and meditation is the key.

Simplicity is wonderful, key. . . Mauna, meaning silence, is a present.. Simplicity, austerity, peace, are indescribable.

Meditation, and physical tapas, are so good for us. To do these with no benefit toward ourselves, but rather for others, is ideal.

'Selflessness is God,' declared Vivekananda.

Bhajans are wonderful for so many reasons. They purify our heart and mind, they improve our mental and spiritual intelligence, they are beautiful sound, they bring beauty, and also improve our memory. We should practice bhajans many times to learn them well, for all these reasons.

As well as all these, they are blissful, bring good energy and purify the environment around us. They purify ourselves and they make the place where we are a holy atmosphere. It truly becomes spiritual.

Nada means sound. Bhajans and music play such a central aspect to spiritual life that they cannot be emphasized too much.

Digambara (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wKpnfs9Q75E&t=322s)
Pahi Pahi Gajanana (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rDO0gBfWvKE)

But all these (bhajans, meditation, tapas (austerity), are for one purpose primarily: attaining spiritual knowledge. Knowledge of the Self, of the soul.

Who is Brahma? Brahma is God. But when Vishnu and Brahma fought over who was greater, they came to Shiva to settle it, but ended up that Shiva wanted to help Brahma from his mistake (of ego, ahankara).

But all those questions, are secondary to, who are you? Wondering who we were in past lives, or so many questions is like looking for something valuable when we have it with us.

We never lost it. Our curiosity and inquiry should be directed towards ourselves. Look for God in the heart.

After Bhagavatam a few times, Guru Gita, many others; Datta Stavam.

markandeya 108 dasa

06 June 2019, 05:45 AM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

I have been busy with no time to reply , maybe next week if there is still interest.

Timetraveller, I am not picking straws or any intention of causing you stress, but your post is detracting from the posters questions and the essence of Bhagavatam and cosmology, which is a vitally important to cultivate for many reason, and waterfalls main reason for posting.

But all those questions, are secondary to, who are you? Wondering who we were in past lives, or so many questions is like looking for something valuable when we have it with us.

We never lost it. Our curiosity and inquiry should be directed towards ourselves. Look for God in the heart.

After Bhagavatam a few times, Guru Gita, many others; Datta Stavam.

No questions are secondary and the questions are based on finding answers in terms of the persons understanding and quest. Past present and future all play a role. The majority of the Upanishads, Puranas and many sutras are based on questions and answers.

After Bhagavatam, this is like saying that Srimad Bhagavatam is incomplete, perhaps you missed the 11th Canto and Uddhava Gita where Krsna is revealing the Avadhuta to Uddhava. One simple cant say that Bhagavatam is some preliminary, read it a few times and then graduate to something higher, each canto , sometimes even each sloka is loaded with enough jnana for full Self realisation.

Is it not Vishnu who creates the universe and then Brahma is created? I am not sure how to understand this:

http://www.krishna.com/topic-term/brahma

Firstly, and I speak only for myself here but I do not accept krishna.com as perfectly representing either Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam or Gaudia Vaishnavism, so there is little point in using what they say as any authority. Some things they say are OK but in general its misleading.

As timetraveller has quoted BrahmA is sitting on stem each coming from a pore of Mahavishnu as Garbhodhakaśāyī Vishnu, this explains the vedantic version of the multiple universe theory, which are multiple and countless jivas, its not that it is describing multiple universes in outer space.

This part of Cosmology of the puranas needs to be cultivated in the west as soon as possible, then the right perspective of consciousness is set.

The terms used as universe in Vedanta and universe in modern science and religion are different, each jiva, individual atomic being is its own universe or Jagat, BrahmA is central to creation of the devolution or evolution to involution to wake up Vishnu to then start creating the causes for liberation. BrahmA is not God, he is acintya Beda Abeda Tattva, the divine transparent medium non different to Shiva and Vishnu, this is very important to understand to know how to understand Shastra correctly, each BrahmA is time bound, vishnu and shiva are never timebound.

Vishnu is not a creator God, BrahmA creates, When Bhumi wakes up she seeks her creator as the cause of dukkha and worldly desires where the earth is over burdened by unruly kings, BrahmA then seeks Maha Vishnu who is yoga nidra sleeping from outside causal events, he is woken up and starts to Create divine potencies through mediums, Srimad Bhagavatam explains all these mediums and is a medium of devi, which reveals pure consciousness, Srimad Bhagavatam is the 3rd state, mahamaya revealing and concealing, with all its unlimited mediums the 4th turiya.

You posted some links to Christian site, i am not the right person to make any synthesis or arguments with Christianity or any form of their present and newer forms of mysticism, if you want to start a new thread I can explain in more details, but briefly the historical mysticism of Christianity post Constantine was from former Pagan cultures that was forced into Christianity and held their own previous traditions in disguise, we are past the times of having to disguise these things and should look more towards re-awaking the naturally arising pagan cosmologies without any Christian Tags, that pre existed before the Christian Monopoly.

There are still a couple of things I want to add if i get time, this is just a quick reply, but a couple of things maybe of greater importance to understand and develop cosmology.

timetraveler

07 June 2019, 04:36 PM

Namaste,

Dear Waterfall,

We were always Atman. In past and in future and present.

Best wishes.

markandeya 108 dasa

08 June 2019, 06:33 PM

Namaste Timetraveller

Good to know and i appreciate your reply, so hopefully we can continue to explore the concept of creation and cosmology of the bhagavatam, and I look forward to anyone who can add to this, because there are some important things in the development of the understanding of Srimad Bhagavatam and Vedic way of thinking to keep those texts and traditions in the right and original context, to break free from philosophical works and religious theology, and mixing it with flat and round earth debates, or limiting it to emprical scientific discovery and authority, all of this just diverts the attention away from the power of Bhagavatam which is living force and the building up of Vikalpa, subtle inwards impressions which is a sadhana and lays the ground for true meditation and invites Brahman into the citta, heart mind centre.

There are some important considerations, that needs to be differentiated from the creation and descent of Brahman,opposing the current creation theories of mainstream religions and Science as an outward creation idea, I prefer to use the word Brahman or other shastric names rather than God, the simple reason is to paint the word God on everything there is the problem of Absolute Monotheism ( which is ripe today) where God is absolute one thing only and absolutely everything and we become that, and everything is God.

Brahman is advaita non dual, there is no difference in Him, or the nature of our true inner most being or swarupa~identity, Brahman and his expansions and various forms are one undivided reality which is always conscious of One nature, but each spiritual Body of the Oneness and undivided nature has their own unique spiritual form and potency which is always in union and and without division to the others. To say Krsna, Shiva, Ganesh, Vishnu, Ram are all exactly the same and identical is not correct, to say that there is any difference in them is also not correct and srimad bhagavatam resolves these puzzles by expanding the meaning of divine mediums that are one in purpose and arrive at the same conclusion and are undifferentiated and unified.

To put these mediums in sushupti Vad, deep sleep, yogic sleep in brahmanda , or states of prajna in the subtle universe, more subtle than mind and sense perception in the third state, which automatically brings union with Turiya Brahman then we get closer to understanding vedanta, which is directly seen and experienced in states of samadhi, where citta is involuting and absorbing into the subtle 3rd state, through inner space akash into the macrocosm, universal realm of buddhi yoga, unifying with the Supreme with his various potencies.

The first part of the puzzle is to know the creator, which is Brahma Deva, if we take Brahma Deva as the citta, as the first created Jiva, and individualize that to ones own conscious source then its more easier to understand whats meant by universe, this being that we experience consciousness or unconsciously, in 3 states, to introspect what is creation and the timeless potential of the descent of Brahman into the conscious being. Rather than some external Godhead that controls everything and somehow decides everyone's fate and all external events are some how part of his Lila, this would make Krsna and the other divine expansions as having elements of evil and ill will and enjoying suffering, and that people who are suppressed into unfortunate conditions as part of their karma, that its somehow their fault and all part of Gods greater plan and some get mercy if they beg and develop mental slavery, or that somehow one is born into auspicious family, race or caste which makes them have some divine entitlement over others, which doesnt seem to be right when cosmology is understood and the nature of Brahman, which is all liberating and auspicious, otherwise known in this respect as Shiva, and is equally accessible to everyone no matter what condition in life or what birth or race status.....

What is also beautiful about Srima Bhagavatam is that there are no stereotypes, many types of being get liberated, all extremes are considered and liberated, even when people were opposed to Brahman, such as Kamsa he wanted nothing but to kill Krsna, day and night his mind was obsessed how to kill and lived in fear, he was liberated. Hiranyakashipu was a great ascetic and was adverse to bhakti and seeing Brahman as external and could only see and wanted the power in himself, he was also liberated, same with ajamila he married a prostitute, Shishulpala was insulting to Krsna and had his head cut off by sudharshan chakra, of course all of these have subtle and esoteric meanings that happen in the macrocosm, the subtle state, more subtle than the subconscious mind, where everything unifies and becomes purfied by Turiya/Brahman and His expansions carried by the divine medium Ma.

Nobody can judge what is jivan mukta or how Brahman descends into the jiva and the jiva then becomes the purpose and instrument of the Divine will, three modern examples and very different characters of ramana maharshi who was mostly silent, the ideal sadhu and saint, Bhagavana Nityanada, a simpleton, often he would be seen as a bit mad and when he spoke nobody understood him, or nisargadatta who chained smoked and when he spoke he was fluent and words came from him like river, endless but all of one nature. This refutes the mundane religious morality of mainstream Theism and directs one to shakti above mundane laws, where mundane enforced morality is an man made constraint and system of control, Srimad Bhagavatm transcends all man made ideas but never transcends being human. The point of this is if Brahman descends into the Jiva there is no stereotype how that person may act or speak, but his essence is non different to Brahman, the purpose and conclusion is One, its beyond all measurement all external conceptualisation, in this way Srimad Bhagavtam explains transcendent cosmology and the descent of Brahman into the Jiva~citta~Brahma Dev, and Brahma Dev acts as the creator and transparent medium for the descent of Brahman, into the 3 worlds, tri loka.

Maybe this answers or helps waterfall in his questions, maybe not, but my input here is to include where others may read, more directed at how Iskcon is approaching Bhagavatam because there will be devotees that come here and check this site. So my motivation is to as best as I can put some things into context where it seems some parts are way of the mark in some places at the moment, but this is not a wholesale comment other parts of Bhagavatam which devotees discuss are very nice and sweet and filled with devotional mood.

Hare Krsna

Waterfall

09 June 2019, 08:23 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa (and timetraveler)

I think it would be good to have someone from the Hare Krishna movement here.

Because I would like to hear what they have to say about the beginning.

If it do not make any sense then they "might" be open to another understanding of things.

Lets take it from the beginning.

We have Brahma (who is not a fallen soul) and Brahma creates something.

But what?

If Brahma creates a human and a cow, then there is a problem, because why should you begin as a cow and I begin as a human?

Where do we begin our existence and as what?

Another thing to think about, because they say there are unlimited numbers of fallen souls, but lets say there only was 10 fallen souls (is that not a possibility?)...how would the world then look like? 1 plant, 2 animals, 3 humans and 4 demigods?

They need a lot of fallen souls to create a world like ours.

I think your way of looking at things are interesting and that you should keep on explaning it.

Just for inspiration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibNisV6uVU

There are great things going on in the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jTjycyu7Dw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDjOjaXxIIY

I have not read your latest post, so I will do that now.

markandeya 108 dasa

10 June 2019, 06:14 PM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

I am initiated into Gaudia Vaishnvava Sampradaya, my initiating guru is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, but as i was saying in terms of cosmology within ISKCON there is not a consensus apart from the general GBC the governing body commission of the institute which is not always correct, so its a work in progress, i am not part of the institution. The main Body of Gaudia Vaishnava is to understand the Bhagavat Dharma, or the essence and nature of the pure devotee, the Bhagavat, this means in simple explanation that that the Srimad Bhagavatam is a conscious Map, and the subject of empirical creation of matter and the outside and outward creation is not part of the Srimad Bhagavatam, its ontological or related to conscious being, which is beyond matter.

Modern times and scientific enquiry is obsessed with reducing everything thing into the limitation that we can explain everything empirically one way or another, to somehow make it real. Srimad Bhagavatam like all shastra is beyond this, more subtle than this, but we have access by conscious means, ie yoga and sadhana and the culture of the Bhagavat or pure devotees, liberated souls, that appear in unlimited and various forms.

Within ISKCON mainstream these things are being discussed, sometimes in the right way but many times in the wrong way, mixing it with empirical science creation on an external basis but in the subtle domain, or Christian theology, this is just part of conditioned explanation and falls short of the mark. So your welcome to ask them but you may not always get the correct answer on Bhagavatam dharma.

We have Brahma (who is not a fallen soul) and Brahma creates something.

But what?

BrahmA when he becomes enlightened acts as the medium for Brahman ( God )to enter the cosmos, or universe, via varying strengths of potencies to gradually purify and liberate all beings in the 3 world or tri loka.

Tri Loka 3 worlds of being

1st state ~Sense consciousness of the 5 senses, sight, sound, taste, touch and smell

2~ State Mind consciousness

3 state~ Super mind consciousness, universal state, more subtle than Mind

Brahman is the 4th state of consciousness, always liberated and never bound in the other states of consciousness.

Srimad Bhagvatam is when Brahman enters the 3rd state which then brings liberation to mind and sense consciousness .

3rd state is a map of the super consciousness, BrahmA is the original living Being in this state, the creator. Brahman is not creator God as in the other theological religions.

If Brahma creates a human and a cow, then there is a problem, because why should you begin as a cow and I begin as a human?

Where do we begin our existence and as what?

Another thing to think about, because they say there are unlimited numbers of fallen souls, but lets say there only was 10 fallen souls (is that not a possibility?)...how would the world then look like? 1 plant, 2 animals, 3 humans and 4 demigods?

They need a lot of fallen souls to create a world like ours.

Bhumi, which means when the living sensual mind being wakes up to his limitation and stress due to worldly desires seeks out the creator, and in Bhagavatam takes the form of cow. Again as with goloka, this form of the cow is not creation of the outside cow we see in the empirical world, its an inner form of devi. This awakening also wakes up the BrahmA and he then becomes enlightened and creation of the cosmic expansion of Brahman enters the the Jiva multiple levelled being. Unlimited beings in the context of Bhagavatam is the unlimited states of being we experience as a conscious being. Considering that psychology and neurology cant map the brain and account for all the states of the subconscious and conscious states what to speak of us understanding the subtle cosmic super mind and states that is more subtle and profound than the regular conscious and subconscious states. To understand all 3 states tri loka these 3 worlds of conscious being needs the expansion of Brahman and his varying potencies and this is the subject of Srimad Bhagavatam, where the end goal is that one becomes liberated and has the same nature of Brahman, that s the Bhagavat or pure devotee, in other words only a Self realized person can understand Bhagavatam, which is living tradition and no two Bhagavats are the same but a always one in essence.

I am not sure why you mention the number 10. The only relation to this number I can think of the 10 indriyas, or 5 knowledge acquiring senses and 5 action senses, which are part of each jivas being and when purified are instruments of Brahman and how the liberated Jiva functions as Brahman in this world.

I hope this makes it slightly more clear, I only have a short time in the morning at the moment to reply.

To really understand Bhagavatam you have to be dedicated as a devotee, as each progressive stage of understanding Bhagvatam is only understood through Grace of the sadhu who is Brahman, the Bhagavat.

Hare Krsna

Waterfall

12 June 2019, 06:24 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

There will be those who better understand you and can talk with you about Srimad Bhagavatam:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavata_Purana

To me this is interesting:

the Srimad Bhagavatam is a conscious Map, and the subject of empirical creation of matter and the outside and outward creation is not part of the Srimad Bhagavatam, its ontological or related to conscious being, which is beyond matter.

Is there a translation of the book that you can recommend? I am danish and happens to live close to a Hare Krishna temple in denmark. Should I go down there and buy the book of them?

Something else...

Could you say something about this:

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=966785#966785

People have problems...

It would be good if there was someone from the Hare Krishna movement here.

Maybe they will come...

You say there has not been a fall and point to Bhagavad Gita 8.21.

https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/8/verse/21

https://www.asitis.com/8/21.html

When you get the time (and just take your time markandeya 108 dasa) I would like to hear how this cancels out a fall. If you already has explained it then I have missed it.

Just for others understanding:

Hare Krishna,

I think you have some incorrect understanding. I have never heard that we get our own universe. We are put on some planet to start our journey of self discovery and purification. Lord Brahma is a very high position, not for some fallen soul. He is instated, appointed to start the universe. The scriptures say that if there is not a qualified Brahma, then He will take the post. It is stated that we have to go through all the species and work our way to human form, then we are responsible for our next life because karma clicks in. There are unlimited fallen souls and unlimited universes, populated by only 1/4 th the amount of souls that have never fallen. Krishna places us here to learn our lesson to not be envious of Him and to purify our misused independence. We can choose, once in human form, to go to the higher planets or Vaikuntha planets, or hopefully, Krishna Loka, so we don't have to go through this again. I hope this helps some. One thing Srila Prabhpuada said was that we should not worry how we got here, but worry how to get out of here.

Sincerely,

Because (when i read this) I thought Krishnaloka was something else than Goloka.

But we are talking about the same place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goloka

I would like to talk about the fall, because lets say there only was 10 (I could say another number, but lets say 10) fallen souls. How would the world then look like? Can we create a meaningfull world with this number of fallen souls? 1 plant, 2 animals, 3 humans and 4 demigods?

Is there not a problem here?

I like the Hare Krishna movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jTjycyu7Dw

Great people...

We need some more joy and positive thinking in the world :)

I would like to create a worldwide spirituel channel. I know we have the internet, but I would like people to turn on their tv and see debates like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibNisV6uVU

Who is Krishna:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRyETD0iGY4

What about Alan Watts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeYLP3R7tRw

I am not talking about brainwashing people...at least not in a negative way :D

There most be millions of people with interest in spirituality.

Just a little dream of mine.

At the moment we have "netflix" and Morgan Freeman:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5242220/

I would like to give 100-200 dollars each month to a worldwide spirituel channel. Any profit should go to good things. Maybe the channel could start with "this" every morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WISajR6x45A

What do you think about this idea?

markandeya 108 dasa

15 June 2019, 09:40 PM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

Is there a translation of the book that you can recommend? I am danish and happens to live close to a Hare Krishna temple in denmark. Should I go down there and buy the book of them?

Its upto you, if you do get the ISKCON Srimad Bhagavatam sets try and get the earliest versions as they are the least edited. Srila Prabhupada was translating directly from Srila Shridhara commentary in sanskrit, and he was an Advaita Vedantists. If you like the Hare Krsna devotees then by all means go and visit and talk with them, there are many good things that they do, great prasadam, spiritual vegetarian foods, many nice devotees, great kirtans and they look after the temples and ashrams nicely, at this moment though I consider that the cosmology in general consensus has not developed, but its a new movement and its good that they can and are discussing these things on regular basis. So everything is there to be discovered which can only be a good thing.

You say there has not been a fall and point to Bhagavad Gita 8.21.

https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/8/verse/21

https://www.asitis.com/8/21.html

How can there be a fall if one reaches that Supreme abode and one cant fall from that position, so the question of falling from the Supreme Abode is not considered.

As said its one of the impossible questions to answer. One reason being is that when we are in ignorance or unenlightened how can we know, because the state of being unenlightened simple means that we dont know something, even if we are told we may question, so one is to first become enlightened then we know for ourselves. BhramA deva is surrounded by darkness and then he hears Om and the vedas are revealed to him, that him BrahmA is our citta or mind and gradually BrahmA is enlightened and understands what is creation and God consciousness and how Brahman comes into being from the state of non being or the inactive yoga nidra or divine sleep of Vishnu detached from worldly activity.

Its really quite simple, and one first has to see that Dharma is about the true nature of being, so its not dealing with the outside creation of the universe, the outside universe of matter is considered in comparison as unconscious. We see the moon but we are not moon conscious, its separated from our being, we see objects but objects are not us, they are apart from us, so there is process of conscious evolution of first understanding what is spirit and what is matter. The Hubble telescope may relay pictures and images of far distance outer space, but do we feel, hear, taste or smell that environment.

Mind creates all levels of being, good and bad, happy and distress states, so the creative potency is within mind and is related to being, mind created states of being. This is one level of creation, the lower level of creation, Brahman is inactive at this point, the only symptoms of consciousness is on sattvic states, all other states are considered as unconscious. So mind becomes the central theme of what is liberated and what is bound, citta is mind, citta in all ancient dharma traditions plays the central role, its the atomic part of consciousness, our being now is all coming from the citta, either in bound state or when purified or in stages of purification acts as the medium of brahman to enter into states of being and all states become liberated, brahman cannot directly manifest as matter because Brahman is nirguna or without any trace material quality. BrahmA is that medium and is central to our being our individual universe, but the word universe complicates it because we associate that word with the outer creation.

I wont answer any of the other questions as they will just be my opinion, i like sadhguru on somethings and also Alan Watts, but each person has to work out whats inspires them and cultivate that as they feel fit.

In terms of creating good projects, go for it why not, thats all i dedicate my time to and have done in one way or another, dharma is for being shared to bring equality and freedom to all beings, to save people, the planet and all sentient life from being exploited by mans corruption and pride, where he gives his own authority over others, based on bodily identification, this is opposite to Brahmanic consciousness.

Hare Krsna

Waterfall

17 June 2019, 05:34 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

I think I will start buying 1 book (the first in the set) in danish and then try and get the earliest version in english.

You say Srila Prabhupada(?) was an Advaita Vedantists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta

I have been down to the temple before:

If you like the Hare Krsna devotees then by all means go and visit and talk with them, there are many good things that they do, great prasadam, spiritual vegetarian foods, many nice devotees, great kirtans and they look after the temples and ashrams nicely, at this moment though I consider that the cosmology in general consensus has not developed, but its a new movement and its good that they can and are discussing these things on regular basis. So everything is there to be discovered which can only be a good thing.

...and you are so right about them.

How can there be a fall if one reaches that Supreme abode and one cant fall from that position, so the question of falling from the Supreme Abode is not considered.

So we have newer been there? Or am I misunderstanding you?

As said its one of the impossible questions to answer. One reason being is that when we are in ignorance or unenlightened how can we know, because the state of being unenlightened simple means that we dont know something, even if we are told we may question, so one is to first become enlightened then we know for ourselves. BhramA deva is surrounded by darkness and then he hears Om and the vedas are revealed to him, that him BrahmA is our citta or mind and gradually BrahmA is enlightened and understands what is creation and God consciousness and how Brahman comes into being from the state of non being or the inactive yoga nidra or divine sleep of Vishnu detached from worldly activity.

Its really quite simple, and one first has to see that Dharma is about the true nature of being, so its not dealing with the outside creation of the universe, the outside universe of matter is considered in comparison as unconscious. We see the moon but we are not moon conscious, its separated from our being, we see objects but objects are not us, they are apart from us, so there is process of conscious evolution of first understanding what is spirit and what is matter. The Hubble telescope may relay pictures and images of far distance outer space, but do we feel, hear, taste or smell that environment.

Mind creates all levels of being, good and bad, happy and distress states, so the creative potency is within mind and is related to being, mind created states of being. This is one level of creation, the lower level of creation, Brahman is inactive at this point, the only symptoms of consciousness is on sattvic states, all other states are considered as unconscious. So mind becomes the central theme of what is liberated and what is bound, citta is mind, citta in all ancient dharma traditions plays the central role, its the atomic part of consciousness, our being now is all coming from the citta, either in bound state or when purified or in stages of purification acts as the medium of brahman to enter into states of being and all states become liberated, brahman cannot directly manifest as matter because Brahman is nirguna or without any trace material quality. BrahmA is that medium and is central to our being our individual universe, but the word universe complicates it because we associate that word with the outer creation.

There is a lot to think about...

I wont answer any of the other questions as they will just be my opinion, i like sadhguru on somethings and also Alan Watts, but each person has to work out whats inspires them and cultivate that as they feel fit.

I am very interested in Sadhguru (he is here now):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwgkvBZXum0

Have just seen this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=963Le1wSJOU

With regard to good projects, then I think it would be a good idea with a worldwide spirituel channel. I am not sure I am the right one for the job (I have not been Gods best child, so...). But I would like to give 100-200 dollars each month to a worldwide spirituel channel that could bring us all together and so on.

I am just putting the idea out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jTjycyu7Dw

Maybe they (and others) could have a good conversation with Sadhguru about this idea...

markandeya 108 dasa

18 June 2019, 10:33 PM

Hare Krsna Waterfall,

Yes it would be best to first read in your native Language and then gradually learn the sanskrit.

You say Srila Prabhupada(?) was an Advaita Vedantists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta

I originally said that Srila Prabhupada was translating most of Srimad Bhagavatam bhasya~commentary from Srila Sridhara Swami, who was an advaitist. Personally i don't read the divisions made my scholars and intellectuals within the sanatana dharma traditions, but essentially all the dharma traditions are advaita or non dual and only taught in different way or the texts if we go by textual reference are according to the level of awakening to Brahman. The higher the awakening the more non dual and the separation is lessened between oneself and Brahman , although relatively simple to understand due to the amount of intellectual and religious divisions associated with Vedanta and the various teachings its becomes quite complex.

Gaudia sampradaya is known as BrahmA Madhava Gaudia Sampradaya, when the full meaning of this is understood then all arguments cease. The essential tattva or truth of Sri Chaitanya Bhakti is Acintya Beda Abeda Tattva, or inconceivable and simultaneous oneness and difference with the Absolute. What I will write will not be in line with the general ISKCON consensus but is not separate from Gaudia Vaishnavism of East India. So the west has its own version which maybe best suited to them but is causing some problems in my opinion and a few others within the dharma traditions, this is where things becomes quite complex. Essentially though Sri Chaitanya Bhakti is the complete union of Purusha and Prakriti in the rasa of Bhakti and is an Advaita tradition and Bhagavata Dharma, the incarnation/avatar of Brahman in the jiva, the divine living person.

Also Madhava Acaharya Sampradaya is an Advaita tradition, which may sound alarming to some, but his teaching tattva Vada is the union of jiva, prakriti and ishvara. Jiva is Citta BrahmA , the original mind, the atomic form of consciousness, the individual spark, Prakriti is Ma or external divine potency of sri and ishvara are in yoga full union is Bhagavata Dharma, there is no dualism or dvaita difference to Brahman, both Madhava Samparadaya and Chaitanya tradition are Bhagavata traditions, when Purusha and Prakriti with medium of the Enlightened BrahmA is in full union that is Bhagavat Dharma who is non different to Brahman, in this way they are Advaita traditions. Unfortunatley I am a total odds with many devotees with me saying these things, you may not understand exactly what I am saying here, but it maybe worth while to take some notes for future reference. Ultimately in Vaisnava Bhagavat Dharma there is no difference between Saguna Brahman or Brahman with qualities and form and Nirguna Brahman without any material form or attribute. Nama and Rupa Name and Form is divine and transcendent and always nirguna in Bhagavat Dharma, hence its an advaita tradition.

What many people consider as Advaita today in modern times may fall short of what advaita is as a living tradition and has become abstract and intellectual. There are also serious problems with translations where some things simple cant be translated and also there is premeditated corruptions in the translations and discourses to cause confusion, because essentially the liberation of the jiva is zero dependency or lesser dependency on any external source, which doesnt go down to well with materialists.

How can there be a fall if one reaches that Supreme abode and one cant fall from that position, so the question of falling from the Supreme Abode is not considered.

So we have newer been there? Or am I misunderstanding you?

According to Bhagavad Gita, if one comes to level of Brahman or the liberated state one will not fall back into patterns of becoming and repeated cycles of birth and death ~ samsara. This is the important point here.

Hare Krsna

Waterfall

21 June 2019, 08:36 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

I originally said that Srila Prabhupada was translating most of Srimad Bhagavatam bhasya~commentary from Srila Sridhara Swami, who was an advaitist.

I understand you now.

Personally i don't read the divisions made my scholars and intellectuals within the sanatana dharma traditions, but essentially all the dharma traditions are advaita or non dual and only taught in different way or the texts if we go by textual reference are according to the level of awakening to Brahman. The higher the awakening the more non dual and the separation is lessened between oneself and Brahman , although relatively simple to understand due to the amount of intellectual and religious divisions associated with Vedanta and the various teachings its becomes quite complex.

Gaudia sampradaya is known as BrahmA Madhava Gaudia Sampradaya, when the full meaning of this is understood then all arguments cease. The essential tattva or truth of Sri Chaitanya Bhakti is Acintya Beda Abeda Tattva, or inconceivable and simultaneous oneness and difference with the Absolute. What I will write will not be in line with the general ISKCON consensus but is not separate from Gaudia Vaishnavism of East India. So the west has its own version which maybe best suited to them but is causing some problems in my opinion and a few others within the dharma traditions, this is where things becomes quite complex. Essentially though Sri Chaitanya Bhakti is the complete union of Purusha and Prakriti in the rasa of Bhakti and is an Advaita tradition and Bhagavata Dharma, the incarnation/avatar of Brahman in the jiva, the divine living person.

Also Madhava Acaharya Sampradaya is an Advaita tradition, which may sound alarming to some, but his teaching tattva Vada is the union of jiva, prakriti and ishvara. Jiva is Citta BrahmA , the original mind, the atomic form of consciousness, the individual spark, Prakriti is Ma or external divine potency of sri and ishvara are in yoga full union is Bhagavata Dharma, there is no dualism or dvaita difference to Brahman, both Madhava Samparadaya and Chaitanya tradition are Bhagavata traditions, when Purusha and Prakriti with medium of the Enlightened BrahmA is in full union that is Bhagavat Dharma who is non different to Brahman, in this way they are Advaita traditions. Unfortunatley I am a total odds with many devotees with me saying these things, you may not understand exactly what I am saying here, but it maybe worth while to take some notes for future reference. Ultimately in Vaisnava Bhagavat Dharma there is no difference between Saguna Brahman or Brahman with qualities and form and Nirguna Brahman without any material form or attribute. Nama and Rupa Name and Form is divine and transcendent and always nirguna in Bhagavat Dharma, hence its an advaita tradition.

What many people consider as Advaita today in modern times may fall short of what advaita is as a living tradition and has become abstract and intellectual. There are also serious problems with translations where some things simple cant be translated and also there is premeditated corruptions in the translations and discourses to cause confusion, because essentially the liberation of the jiva is zero dependency or lesser dependency on any external source, which doesnt go down to well with materialists.

I will print this out and read it some more times...

According to Bhagavad Gita, if one comes to level of Brahman or the liberated state one will not fall back into patterns of becoming and repeated cycles of birth and death ~ samsara. This is the important point here.

I would like to go back to what you said earlier:

These discussions have been going on for quite some time within Hare Krsna circles, at least about 25 years and as far as I know there is no consensus or agreement to how we came into conditions of Birth and death, did we turn away, this cant be true if we are to accept Bhagavad Gita 8.21.

Where does the idea come from that there has been a fall:

http://www.krishna.com/info/how-did-we-get-here

They say there are sources:

Our sources say that at some point we made a choice to turn away from Krishna—and away from our eternal life in the spiritual world—just because we could. We think, "Why should Krishna be God? Why can't I be God?" So Krishna obligingly provides us with an environment where we can imagine ourselves as the center of existence.

Maybe you have another explanation for us being here?

Just for inspiration:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toward_the_Light

In this book it was some angels who fell and in there fall created man:

Thus, they created the first man, and hoped that he and his fellow men would be able to control the Darkness. But the humans were afraid, and escaped from the evil they felt from the Eldest. When they saw the sun, they held out their arms and asked for help. When the humans died, their spirits arose from their bodies, but the Eldest had not been able to give them Thought and a Will, and they continued as shadows — alive, but still dead, without consciousness. These zombies eventually outnumbered the living humans, wandering the earth like an army of ghosts. When the Eldest saw this, some of them felt terrible about what their experiments with the darkness had led to, and they pitied their creations. When God called for them, they asked Him to help their creatures, and God agreed to take responsibility for the humans. He gave all the dead spirits a spark of divine light, and gave them Will and Thought, and they became conscious beings. And God made laws for man's existence, ordaining that they again and again must incarnate on earth, to grow in maturity until they have learned to resist the darkness. Upon maturity, they will end their living on earth, and continue their development toward the kingdom of God

I like this book but I have a problem with the description of the universe in it:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a03.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko03.htm

There is a animation of this text:

http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20universet%20for%20viderekommende%20-%20del%204.html

To understand the animation better I can point to some questions and answers...question/answer 27-32:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page58.html

I am not a scientist and do not know if it is possible to create a universe this way, so...???

How would you answer this question:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a03.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko03.htm

markandeya 108 dasa

22 June 2019, 06:41 AM

Hare Krsna

I dont think there is anymore I can add, you may want to research what Brahmanda and Pindanda or the macrocosm and microcosm and what it means inline with vedanta or the conscious dharma and not religion/belief or science~outer view.

Where does the idea come from that there has been a fall:

From ignorance

Srila Prabhupada never gave an exact reason, he said somehow or another, its an impossible question. Creation being bound in samsara is based on klesha.

ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.

I don't have time to read through all the Christian Theology and as said before its not my interest, if anything its a distraction and veers away from dharma. Although the same message will be in their somewhere, as in first was the word and the creation of the worlds in 7 sevens days. Om being the word and Seven Lokas which are conscious abodes not the outer universe, this would be the divine creation.

Good luck in your pursuit Waterfall

If I was to suggest a reading with practical methods with further insights then Second Chapter of Bhagavad Gita is sufficient enough.

Hare Krsna

timetraveler

25 June 2019, 02:11 AM

Waterfall,

To really understand Gita, or Bhagavatam, one has to really live it.

Markandeya and I both recommend the Bhagavatam very much, but what hasn't been mentioned is one has to live it, from a personal place.

Bhagavatam is very beautiful and vast. And as Markandeya mentions, each verse is tremendous.

But, if you want to understand it, one has to spend time in devotion...

This is, the path mentioned.

I.e., understanding it as a scholar, is simply impossible.

This would be like trying to understand math from the platform of molecular biology.

To begin with, ahimsa - non violence - is primary. If this is not there, then all of the rest can never be.

Blessings.
Peace

markandeya 108 dasa

25 June 2019, 09:56 AM

Timetraveller

Its a bit presumptuous to say that if someone doesnt understand something they are not living a life devoted dedicated to understanding/realizing aspects of Dharma, even Uddava after coming from Vrndavana in 11th canto still had many questions, was he lacking in living his life separate from Krsna. There are many devotees that have been soley dedicated on a daily basis and outwardly and inwardly trying their hardest in ways most people cannot imitate, but still they are not clear about certain things, so why is that.

So what else is missing if the people who are very dedicated and devoted and lives as devotees full time, and still are not understanding and then whats next for them. And just because people have an understanding of the texts doesnt mean they are scholars in the way your saying, i dont think Waterfall is asking as a scholar and I am not replying as scholar. So I fail to fully grasp your point, although its partially valid but devotion in sentiment will not produce the right effects, and you missed some of things i mentioned. Before devotion can arise one needs to learn sadhana which all takes place in the citta, which is not the sentimental heart, this is the whole point to understand creation and cosmology of Bhagavatam. As your fond of swami vivekanda he said that first we get the external understanding and by grace the internal devotion develops by that Grace. Bhakti is not something that one does. And partially I am offering something to other devotees that may come across this and I know they are already doing their best to live in accordance with Krsna consciousness in devotional mood.

Waterfall

Back to the topic

I quickly glanced at this

from one of the links

Behold, there arose in God the thought of creating new beings

Most people associate creating beings as external objects like trees, plants, birds, fish, animals and humans. When God/brahman is using brahmA to create the beings what he creates are new states within ones own life, or state of being. This is where creation of the outer universe is not mentioned in any of dharma texts, the creation is of new states of being, which takes place at the centre of being or in the mind the first created living being in the universe the individual universe BrahmA is the centre of each universe, the jiva is the microcosm, each microcosm has BrahmA, in dharma terms we( the citta the atomic form of consciousness) are the centre of our own universes, microcosm . Not that we are the centre or any one living being is the centre of the outside universe, thats impossible, how can so many living beings all be the centre of the universe, who knows how many living external forms of beings, so again centre of the universe in the context of the dharma traditions is the citta, and BrahmA is the centre the creator, everything is mind born, the outside universe is not the macrocosm in the vedic texts. Its the subtle universe when citta has moments of awakening.

Iskcon or the main preaching form of current Iskcon, not all devotees associated with Gaudia Vaishnavism say this as you mentioned

Our sources say that at some point we made a choice to turn away from Krishna—and away from our eternal life in the spiritual world—just because we could. We think, "Why should Krishna be God? Why can't I be God?" So Krishna obligingly provides us with an environment where we can imagine ourselves as the center of existence.

Which sources? Srila Prabhupada spoke sometimes in whats known as yukti's or methods to teach, yukti's or methods have two aspects, one is time place and circumstance to level of the audience to get a point across and then second aspect is that they are time bound, meaning that they should not be made into a dogma or a fixed belief. So what Srila Prabhupada said can't always be taken literally, thats a huge part of the problem because he said many things that sometimes contradicted other statements, this is partly why there is no consensus in the institute or no natural alignment with all the devotees, because everything is taken as literate, each word that Srila Prabhupada spoke is the Absolute unchangeable Truth, and it causes a lot of problems and divisions and many long standing debates which are unresolved after many years.

It becomes highly important that we understand our central existence and consciousness as being the centre of existence, and religion and science when it comes to understanding the creation and origins of the Universe keeps ones attention focused on the outer and dependant on the outer, Bhumi who is an aspect of devotion first seeks BrahmA internally, seeks out who is creating all the unruly kings in the earth, in fact Bhumi Devi ( an aspect of Bhakti~devotion) is awakening BrahmA to his mismanagement of the universe. Then when he seeks Vishnu, Vishnu then starts creating new states of being that gradually liberated BrahmA or the citta the mind. This is whats meant by creation in the vedic texts. If this is understood I will try to add something in another post which may be able to highlight that the vedic texts are not talking in anyway shape or form about the creation of matter.

Hare Krsna

Waterfall

25 June 2019, 02:08 PM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa (and timetraveler)

I just thought the book was relevant because it also talks about a fall.

There must be a reason for us being here on earth?

ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.

Can you explain this to me?

I don't have time to read through all the Christian Theology and as said before its not my interest, if anything its a distraction and veers away from dharma. Although the same message will be in their somewhere, as in first was the word and the creation of the worlds in 7 sevens days. Om being the word and Seven Lokas which are conscious abodes not the outer universe, this would be the divine creation.

I just wanted to tell about this fall and tell about this view on the universe:

http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20universet%20for%20viderekommende%20-%20del%204.html

Does the universe look like this? I have my doubt...but who knows? I am not a scientist (astronomer/astrophysicist) and is not able to investigate it. But I think it is interesting...heaven being in the center of creation. That makes sense. If I had money then I would hire some scientist to investigate this description of the universe. Is it possible to create a universe this way? If it is not possible...well...then we (also) have learnt something.

I do not think you have to go through all the Christian Theology. The Christians think God created Adam and Eve and so on. This book say it was some fallen angels who created man 5 million years ago:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page67.html

I am not convinced of anything, so...

At the moment this book is just an interesting book that I have read.

I have read your latest post and I am glad that you have not given up on me :)

There are so many things to talk about...

Who am I:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSG6z_13-Q

markandeya 108 dasa

25 June 2019, 08:57 PM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

I havent given up on this thread but the question of fall has a limitation, and until we are fully awake we wont know, the original teaching in the dharma traditions is how to get out of the cycle of birth and death. If we give an answer it can only satisfy some curiosity, and then someone may say something else to counter that and it brings confusion, who is right and who is wrong. So the answer is given by illumination or realisation. The question itself is natural but to keep stuck on it waiting for the right answer will not solve the existential problem of being bound by change and distress of birth , ageing disease and death.

ISKCON created a dualistic argument that has no basis in vedanta, same as flat and round earth, its concocted.

Can you explain this to me?

Srila Prabhupada gave equivocal teachings, so it then becomes open to many types of interpretation and the people who gave the final edited editions were not enlightened so this creates dualistic arguments and false conclusions, which has caused division and lots of arguments and fighting in ISCKON and other factions of Gaudia Math. Thats why taking everything literally becomes perplexing and inside ISKCON there are people who want to cause division, that is the way of the material world which is full of duality, the duality gets emphasis and it all collapses.

I have very short amounts of time online at the moment so i cant go through everything you post, i generally dont listen to talks on Youtube so much anymore, or follow anyone in particular and I dont have time to go through your links and then make a synthesis with Bhagavatam, in my experience over the years knowing devotees the Christian Theology is a major hindrance and is a large part of causing confusion because they are seeing creation as starting from the outer, and the descriptions of the universe as the outer universe, and God creating the suffering or enjoyments of the living beings, so its best just to throw it all out and understand as best as possible the original way Dharma was taught, for this you may need to meet sadhus in real life and they are hard to find, or you dont find them, they find you. You have inquiry that is the important thing and at some point surely everything will come. God/Brahman is nothing but the liberator when he is activated by the right type of inquiry~ jijnasu.

For other questions directly related to Bhagavatam I will attempt to answer. I dont really listen or read anything in Iskcon very deeply anymore, some slokas parts of the purports and the etymology in transliterations of the slokas, and the only person I listen to on occasion more seriously is this devotee.

http://www.bhagavatadharma.co.uk/

Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita are the basis for Gaudia Vaishnava practice and way of life,they are for internal study and to connect in your own way and to learn something new everyday and constantly grow into whats being said, and to graduallylearn inner dependency, the outer world will always be tricky and dualistic and uncertain. Thats why its recommended that there needs to be a solid foundation of whats in second chapter samkhya yoga in Bhagavad Gita.

Waterfall

26 June 2019, 07:03 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

I would like to delete the last thing in my previous reply "Who am I". Or the music part. It just pop up in my brain but I should have ignored it and made a link to this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKFTUuJppU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0dugc4TrlE

I have not seen it yet, but it is something that I will see.

What you are saying is interesting and new to me and I have to think about it.

You said ISKCON created a dualistic argument? Can you explain this argument to me?

And thank you for the link:

http://www.bhagavatadharma.co.uk/

markandeya 108 dasa

28 June 2019, 07:45 AM

Hare Krsna Waterfall

You said ISKCON created a dualistic argument? Can you explain this argument to me?

One of them is to do with your original question, on how we fall, if we was at some point in the spiritual world and then we became bound up samsara in life cycles of birth death and dissatisfaction. Was we with God/krsna, if we was always Atma or Brahman as guru, shastra and sadhu says then how did we fall into repeated birth, old age disease and death, how did we separate, its a natural question but the answer is not easy or straightforward as presented by ISKCON, where there is a split debate on what Srila Prabhupada said, as said earlier he gave equivocal teachings, sometimes varying his answers, if all of them are taken literally then there can be contradiction, the dualistic arguments are based on this. You may have to do more research independently of jiva tattva and tattashta tattva, did we originate from Vishnu or did we fall from Krsna Loka, these are the topics discussed in ISKCON, and then decide which side of the fence you want to base your beliefs if at all.

Its normal to question these things, why is there evil in the world, is it God plays, do we have free, or is it the will of God, do people suffer by fate due to their karma, there are some clever materialist out there that use these to cover their own works in the world, but as I understand non of these actually apply not in the samadhi traditions anyway, were book and shastric reference to how its mostly used within western religious ways are redundant, and the concept of an external Creator God is not existent. And this is where many members of ISKCON struggle, due to mainly Christian Backgrounds where the word of God the books of God and the pure devotees are beyond questioning and what they say is always fundamentally and literally true, and its only our ignorance that fails to see this type of Absolute Authority, and many times religious statements are used to bolster ones own point or agenda, i have seen this happen time and time again.

So large parts of my input is answers to these debates and some other wider topics as relate to ISKCON, but as I said i am no authority on this, but for me in how i understand these things, there is Absolutely no contradiction in any traditions of guru, sadhu and shastra.

When creation is seen as coming from the citta or creation is mind born and BrahmA is part of the Citta, and once the citta has woken up then only God/Brahman in all his forms descends through the citta or the mind, this is why in the Dharma traditions Brahman the Absolute is not responsible or behind the suffering and injustice in the world, its man and his selfish desires, or lack of God consciousness, it becomes convenient to blame God or some one else, or be lazy to others suffering as its their Karma or Fate and nobody has any free will as everything is predestined, all of these are man made ideas which, should/have to be challenged in one way or another.

Each of us have our own individual cosmos, no two living beings are the same, just as no two finger prints are the same and brahman will liberate each individual cosmos in its own unique way and Srimad Bhagavatam includes most if not all the processes, so there is no one way as per religion or sect, what works for one may not work for another but the final result is the same, so in public we just give hints and ideas and in private we build our personal relationship with the Absolute through the citta and we will gain insights into the causes creation of fall and the causes of liberation

Waterfall

01 July 2019, 06:24 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

I will spend some time reading through the thread and think about what you are saying. Just so you know.

timetraveler

04 July 2019, 12:30 PM

Namaste, Waterfall;

So - one thing you should understand is that Hindu cosmology is different than Western Cosmology. The thing is, consciousness takes a higher place. If you are pure, then God is there.

If we are in a divine state of consciousness, we are already in heaven. -- God is not somewhere far way, but everywhere. Within everything and everyone. So we should spend our lives trying to learn about God and live in such a way that He wants.

To purify our hearts, and do good for others. So - it again comes back to simple things. . . What is the most important?

Dharma, Peace, Truth, Love, and these -- it's necessary and importance.

Sattva means goodness, and it implies gentleness, kindness, peacefulness, truthfulness......

One part of Dharma, indeed one of the most important; is Ahimsa or non-violence.. Truth, Ahimsa, peace -- all of these are interconnected. . .

It is generally understood Truth is the highest; but Ahimsa is so important as well.

This is why I emphasized it, to understand these is important.

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 06:26 AM

Hare Krsna Waterfall,

Take your time. I added a few things due this topic being in vogue at the moment because shortly ISKCON will open the Vedic planetarium, which will show in visual the universe according to Srimad Bhagavatam, and its stimulated some discussion on who plays what role in the universe. BrahmA is seen as an external creator which would be closer to Christian form of God creating the outer universe. This is the problem, so if God created the outer universe and controls everything then he also creates suffering and evil, this would be the opposite to Brahman.

Matter is created by mind, our body is creation of mind, mind is filled with desire, even desiring to be good is a desire that binds one to this world, Brahman is beyond both good, bad and all opposites and comparisons, all given concepts are relative of good and bad, are conditional and based on sense perception , what is good for one person maybe bad for another, a good situation may lead to bondage a bad event may lead to liberation, nobody can measure the complexity, when mind finds equlibrium in the extremes then Brahman will descend into mind.

This is why Brahman is not a creator God in the Biblical sense, He is nirguna non dual or beyond all concepts of matter which is mind created, Brahman is beyond any concept of mind created ideas and known through the process of yoga or samadhi, and unrelated to mundane religious sentiment, which is another form of sense perception, but how long do the senses last, renunciation and detachment is the highest way, this leads to seva, beyond even altruism and sattva although they are recommended, then the citta or mind if it is empowered by Brahman through his shakti is non different from Brahman until all created states of being are destroyed and all rebirth cycles have ended, each individual persons path of purification will be slightly different.

So - one thing you should understand is that Hindu cosmology is different than Western Cosmology. The thing is, consciousness takes a higher place. If you are pure, then God is there.

In fact western cosmology is the same, all naturally arising spiritual systems globally have the same ontological underlying meaning, but they have been damaged due t Christianity and modern scientific empirical education and the Eastern traditions are also under threat. In terms of mainstream religion and Modern science Cosmology is different, this has no location of east or west in geographical way, its a global epidemic.

Krsna in his various potency can descend at any time as soon as mind hits a state of equilibrium, even for the shortest moment of time, and not when someone has become pure,Nisargadatta Maharaja was under to much stress as a householder and he became liberated, what effect this has on a person cant be measured or any external circumstances measured by the senses, this whole pure thing is a fallacy which is not true, so many devotees feel worthless because they have not reached the state of holy purity, and has led to another split debate between us and them, devotees and non devotees, was Kamsa pure, yet he was liberated.

The underlying meaning in Bhagavata Dharma is in no matter what state of mind or being just try to remember His Name and Form, Nama and Rupa, Brahman and is Nama and Rupa is non different, one doesn't become pure then realize God. Everyone is born into different conditions but all equally have the potential in any state to be Brahman realised.

Nam brings mind into state of equilibrium and then one's citta or mind becomes empowered by one of his shaktis, how that manifests nobody can measure. Vamsi Dasa Baba Ji would smoke ganga, walk around like a mad man, never wash the clothes of his deities and argue with them all day and scold them an refuse to cook for them if he was unhappy with them, he was an avadhuta. If the pure standard is set to high then it will deny the human part of being intrinsically imperfect.

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 08:05 PM

Namaste Waterfall

Continuing with the thread ( unhindered I hope )

What is the Vedic God as per different to the normal Theology or mainstream theology. One of the words in sanskrit that is used is ishvara, a basic translation is ruler, but what does he rule, and where, is he an outside God ruling the outer universe. If I can borrow the first line of the Avadhuta Gita, where union with Brahman is described the opening verse says

isvarAnugrahaAd evam

My sanskrit etymology is not the best but here is brief translation

isvara ~ ruler

anu is the atomic jiva the spark of consciousness~BrahmA being the first created Jiva

graha can mean both planet or loka and seizure, loka above planet as spheres of consciousness

Brahman as Ishvara is seizing the anu the jiva the atomic particle of consciousness and begins to control his loka or state of being. anugraha gets translated as grace, but what is the real function of grace, in this moment the jiva only wants to be union with Brahman and loses all desire to be part of the external creation, but due to the conditions of the citta which have amounted over countless lifetimes there is a process of purification, what gets translated as yugas as time spans of lifetimes over vast amount of human years is not exactly correct, the time spans or yugas and kalpas are cosmic timescales that cant be measured by ordinary time. Srila prabhupada said that the speed of Mind is the fastest thing in the universe. Citta is extremely complex, if the ordinary atom is complex and hard to understand, just imagine how complex the citta is the atom spark of consciousness measured at 1 billionth the size of the observable atom.

In Bhagavad Gita Krsna says when the mind is liberated Paramatma is reached, in Srimad Bhagavtam its said that all states of Aham, Brahman and descriptions of Absolute, Ishavara, Bhagavan are antariyami or indwelling, this rules out an external God and Creator of the universe. Bhagavan is Ishvara possessing all divine attributes, so God in the Vedic sense is not responsible for creation, he is anti matter liberator of all qualities and mind created states. Srimad Bhagavtam expands on the names and forms nama and rupa which are to be meditated on daily. Srila Prabhupada said that one should first get a very good understanding of the first canto of Srimad Bhavatam, before going deeper into the divine and profound teachings on God consciousness.

The vast majority of our thoughts go unnoticed, they are to rapid and to quick our ordinary sense perception is insufficient to notice this, and only by anugraha is the citta and cosmology seen. The recommended process is training the citta, in the Bhakti Tradition of Gaudia Vaishnavism 9 processes of Bhakti are given as cittabhavanas or ways to retrain the citta into Krsna consciousness.

A brief over view

http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter24.html

Srimad Bhagavatam goes through all the levels of purification of the citta. Normal sentimental religion based on Utopian ideals is not real, and does not reflect the state of the jiva who is bound by cycles of becoming.

You said in an earlier message and that we keep reincarnating as humans

Do you think that we reincarnate as animals? I have never understod the meaning of that? According to this book (Toward the Light) we only reincarnate as human beings and that makes sense to me.

What happens to us after death nobody really knows, maybe only the fully realised person can see all the causes and effects of each person, whose destiny will be different, the material energy is to complex, but if one does spiritual sadhana its said they are guaranteed human birth. But I do find this interesting and due to how most reincarnation is spoken about in cosmology is that we take different physical births either as devas in higher lokas or as animals or hell beings in lower births and planets, as marginal living conditioned beings we can move from loka to loka higher or lower even in the space of one hour, the ultimate goal of Self realisation is to transcend and go beyond all the lokas.

Personally I do not see that the cosmology of any dharma tradition is outside of the human being, the human being in 7 lower lokas states are when Brahman is not active, many humans act like or worse than animals, so its a tendency within us as human beings, hungry ghosts is also one loka, this means unsatisfied desires, no matter how much materialists gets they always want more, so all the descriptions in cosmology are within the human potentials, both devic or illuminated by Brahman expansions or asuric when Brahmans presence is inactive. Asura gets translated as demon, i think this word is a bit harsh, even the mode of goodness can be asuric if its to strengthen bodily or worldly identification for self name and fame and subtle pride, to adorn the body, asura maybe better understood as material desire, which is present in all of us, and is a hindrance, Brahman realisation is devoid of the body idea good or bad. Just recently I heard the Ramana Maharshi called the body a disease. This doesnt mean that one should falsely renounce the body, but using the body to beautify and decorate and be over concerned with health and well being is material desire.

Lokas or states can also mix and higher lokas can mix with lower lokas to purify. So why its impossible to say what each destination and next birth will be in general the descriptions of cosmology only deal with the potentials of the human consciousness in this one lifetime, its not abstract. The general understand of karma and reincarnation of going from one gross body to another is not that accurate, its a yuki or method and logic to activate further self enquiry into the conscious being and how its made up, like cells in the body birth and death and states of being are happening on a continuous basis in this one lifespan on the most subtle level. Creation begins in the subtle.

The Bhagavatam is very insightful on human nature and the levels of consciousness and ways of purification, bondage and liberation. In the story of the asuras and devas churning the ocean of the milk for immortality. We have two types of chromosome archetypal opposites of consciousness in our conditioned being, asura and deva, asura is our desire to be alive in this body and this world and be the lords of the world, to be free from ageing sickness and death and avoid these parts of nature, the conditioned living being is constantly trying to make adjustments on the outside to avoid ageing , sickness and death, nobody really wants to die, get sick and old, the asura is looking for material means or relying on material means to sustain this identity and body and try to keep it permanent and avoid death, the devic side of conscious being is striving towards being liberated, there is a constant battle to various degrees in each conditioned Jiva. Jiva is the soul, Brahman is not the soul, Jiva is the atomic particle of individual consciousness, Brahman is the non dual all pervading Absolute Being, that purifies both devic and asuric tendancies in consciousness. In this process Shiva spills some poison on the earth, as i have been told this poison is the message of renunciation, due to attachment of outer being nobody wants to really hear the message of tygai, due to material desires, this is how the sadhu speaks, but when that poison is ingested it becomes a source of nectar and liberation.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:24 PM

Ok - You wrote a lot of personal insults and then deleted them.

STOP MESSAGING ME.

Peace and blessings is what I wrote to you and which after you sent me extremely negative and messed up messages ----- Let it go.

Stop insulting me. Stop being hateful, and stop messaging me. You do not know me, and you are certainly not acting out of goodness. Just. Stop.

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 10:25 PM

Please start your own thread, everyone of your posts has detracted the topic and i dont care about your superficial peace and dont need your blessing , but thanks for the offer. What you need to do is start being more honest

I said stop bringing this into public, your a real sly person and again your lying. which is exactly what my problem is with you. I deleted because i knew you read them, so stop lying, being sly and devious and then acting all pure and holy. Stop hassling others with your dislike of me, we get it, now you move on to another thread please and tell everyone how holy you are, oh and please stop eating vegetables they have a right to live exactly the same as flowers.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:27 PM

Leave me alone and stop being hateful.

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 10:31 PM

Then get off this thread with all your sly comments detracting from the topic, see once your given a chance to post again freely see what your like.

Sly and devious and not one shred of ahimsa or truthfullness.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:33 PM

.

Stop____ being____ hateful.

You have been, and are being, continuing extremely hateful towards me.

STOP. What is the reason for this?

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:34 PM

You have been and are being continuing to be extremely hateful.

For what reason?

What in the universe?????

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 10:44 PM

I have written you the reasons in pm

its your passive aggression which you continue , so leave this thread for topics on the subject, anything else talk directly to me and stop crowd playing

If you have something to add about iskcon and its views on cosmology, if you understand the subject and whats being discussed then please add something or else start a new thread giving everyone instructions that you cant follow.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:47 PM

???? Stop being hateful --

I wrote devotion is the key necessity to understanding God and wrote pages of hate.

Leave this thread or let me post in Peace. And do NOT, I repeat do NOT private message me.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:50 PM

I said that devotion is necessary -- that this is the central message of the Bhagavatam, and you wrote a entirely and toxically hateful message to me.

You are absolutely unrelenting.

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 10:50 PM

Private message sent to stop annoying the public, if you have something to say to me do it directly, spare others.

please keep this topic in terms of the questions and be honest

Can your next post be on the subject of cosmology according to iskcon and srimad bhagavatam, without stating the obvious.

Again your hissy fits of ahmisa has destroyed another thread.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 10:50 PM

You have been hateful and harassing to me.

markandeya 108 dasa

05 July 2019, 11:06 PM

Considering all your comments were removed and your comments were put on hold, its about time you showed some honesty. But I think self honesty is not in your dna.

But I am glad you have started your own thread. Maybe now this thread can develop

Good luck with that.

timetraveler

05 July 2019, 11:10 PM

Stop with the hate --

You have been very hateful and unrelentingly hostile, and you are not showing any signs of stopping. You have been aggressive, personal and extremely rude, for absolutely no reason.

Stop.

I have done nothing to do this and the endless, eternal and baseless aggression and hostility must stop.

Waterfall

07 July 2019, 10:52 AM

Hare Krishna timetraveler and markandeya 108 dasa

I think we have to go "back" to this:

https://iskcondesiretree.com/profiles/blogs/brahma-loka-vs-vaikuntha-loka-by-romapada-swami

But not all of them go back to Godhead. Even Lord Brahma himself doesn’t always go back to Godhead. In the 9th canto Srila Prabhupada says: “Both the Lord and the living entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment, but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to enjoy independently, without Krsna, he is put into the material world, where he begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a worm in stool.” (SB 9.24.58 ppt) So it appears we have all been Brahmas, but have fallen down.

How can we all begin as Brahma? Lets say 10 soul falls, then, according to this, there would be 10 Brahmas. Each with their own universe to govern. But it would be an empty universe = there would only be Brahma because the other souls or Brahmas are in their own universe facing the same problem. Or am I misunderstanding what is being said? What do they mean when they say: "he begins his life as Brahma"?

This seems to be another answer than the one I got from krishna.com? I am confused.

markandeya 108 dasa

16 July 2019, 10:59 PM

Hare Krsna,

But not all of them go back to Godhead. Even Lord Brahma himself doesn’t always go back to Godhead. In the 9th canto Srila Prabhupada says: “Both the Lord and the living entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment, but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to enjoy independently, without Krsna, he is put into the material world, where he begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a worm in stool.” (SB 9.24.58 ppt) So it appears we have all been Brahmas, but have fallen down.

As said previously BrahmA is citta or the mind the original jiva, creation in the dharma traditions comes from the mind, not from an outer force a big bang in science or an external creator God controlling all living beings, both of these theories ultimately deny free will , which is quite fashionable at the moment and are man made ideas, and subsequently quite dangerous the way its being propagated, mind creates either conditions that bind it to material existence or mind becomes liberated, you can see some slokas in Bhagavad Gita. 6.6 and 6.7 .

BrahmA the original Jiva , atomic individual consciousness is described as marginal, it can go up or down or be liberated, on the gross level its said the jiva atomic soul transmigrates from one body to another, on the more subtle level mind states are in constant flux, enjoying or suffering the results of material nature which is always unsteady and uncertain and based on conditions.

What is the worm in the stool, different analogies are given by Srila Prabhupada which describe states of consciousness within the human being, a worm in the stool is when consciousness identifies with the body, bodily identification is what causes all the suffering, exploitation and division in the world ( although SOME think they are excluded from this, which is just another form of elitism) .

The worm is the mind consciousness trapped in bodily identifications, creating identifications such as I belong to a certain race, caste, country, religion and creed, this creates me and you, us and them, self and other, higher and lower, complete opposite direction, and is the lowest state. bodily identification which the worm ( mind) moves around in is of two kinds, gross and subtle, gross is the external body which the condition soul decorates, the external body is made up of gross elements, skin, bones , veins, blood, sweat, mucus, urine and excrement, in total 32 parts of the body are contemplated and rejected as gross. The worm type consciousness moves around in this body and thinks it is very nice, adorns it and works hard for it and tries to attract other bodies it likes and get rid of the ones its dislikes and exploits the ones it can lord over for its own profits, if one is attached to the bodily identification then the jiva is like a worm in the stool, to be free from the body idea is first part of liberation.

Subtle stool or mental defilement kilesha, is I am from this country, this race, this creed, religion, caste, as different and better than the other types of identification of country, race, creed, religion, caste, i believe in this ism or that ism which is better and different from other isms created from other worms ( limited minds states) attached to their own forms of mental defilement and creates divisions and the materialists begins their tactics of divide and rule, gain and fight for supremacy, for name fame at the expense of others, this is the worm in stool consciousness and are insignificant as ants, they try to make Brahman in his divine aspects their servant for their material desires and Lord over material nature as superior beings and blame Brahman for injustice in the world as his creation and divine plan, like the poor and suffering is their own karma and is predestined, when it is the desires of the mind that creates injustice, division and materialism.

To see the causes of bondage is the first stage, this takes honesty, which is a rare commodity, due to attachment........

When BrahmA wakes up from his delusion of stoolism and see's that he is creating only suffering and division, with lies and deception in the world he then starts to inquire what is the real purpose of life, beyond the body idea and seeks refuge in Brahman. By association of Brahman, Brahman descends into the mind and BrahmA then is the medium for Brahman or the Absolute to enter in the cosmic being of his creation, and destroy all states of beings good and bad and thus gradually transforms as non different from Brahman.

SB 3.12.48

śabda-brahmātmanas tasya
vyaktāvyaktātmanaḥ paraḥ
brahmāvabhāti vitato
nānā-śakty-upabṛṁhitaḥ

Synonyms:

śabda-brahma — transcendental sound; ātmanaḥ — of the Supreme Lord; tasya — His; vyakta — manifested; avyakta-ātmanaḥ — of the unmanifested; paraḥ — transcendental; brahmā — the Absolute; avabhāti — completely manifested; vitataḥ — distributing; nānā — multifarious; śakti — energies; upabṛṁhitaḥ — invested with.

Translation:
Brahmā is the personal representation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the source of transcendental sound and is therefore above the conception of manifested and unmanifested. Brahmā is the complete form of the Absolute Truth and is invested with multifarious energies.

As Srila Prabhupada said keep the iron rod in the fire long enough and the iron rode becomes fire, this is acintya beda abeda tattva of Bhagavata Dharma which is an advaita tradition in it purest form,in the human condition. Iskcon while it has many good parts was an experiment and a modification, and thats why there is some confusion in understanding krsna consciousness and cosmology. And those that come from monotheistic Christian backgrounds just have sever problems to understand cosmology of Vedanta and dharma traditions.

This Chapter deals with mostly what I have been posting, throughout this thread.

https://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/3/12

(https://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/3/12)

Personally i dont think the translations in this text is very good, it can provide more problems that solve, but it can also provide a platform for deeper enquiry, and is where others have a problem with the general institutional iskcon translations, and many problems today is that everything is taken literally, people with low discernment powers can only see in black and white, this is a big problem in todays world or programmed brainwashed cittas by external media and authority, religious and modern materialistic education and conditioning, its seems among so called educated people this problem of two way bilateral brainwashing is very deep.

As said before universe in the Dharma version is not the outside universe, it is ontological, we all have a unique individual design slightly different from each other, our own puzzle, what we observe outside is just matter, product of mind in its lowest form, body is a product of mind, and is manifesting as the last product of mind, before the last product of manifestation of mind or the present moment awareness of the external subtle and gross there are subtle causes. Dharma Shastras and Sutras deal only with the subtle causes or the root cause of both bondage and liberation where BrahmA plays a central role, central to BrahmA in his waking up is paramatma/antariyami~indweller and his unlimited forms and qualities, which are always transcendent nirguna and beyond all duality.

I am confused

The texts and teachings are not meant to confuse, if you feel confused dont think it about it to much, in time things will reveal themselves in their own time or when you are ready, i added a few things which I find important to the discussion at the moment in the current discussion on cosmology.

Many things I have not understood in the past and still do not understand, but it never bothers me, in fact it only increases investigation, i dont even feel rushed to understand, its best just to put any confusion on the shelf, its not a mental exercise to work with like a subject in modern education, its a discovery, BrahmA has two cycles when he is waking up, day and night sun and moon, sun brings instant insight and moon things are cooled down and work and digest at slower pace, when something is realised in oneself then that is the true discovery. And lets not forget this is the highest form of understanding, higher than any science, sociology, psychology, religion, it has no comparison.

Waterfall

18 July 2019, 06:18 AM

Hare Krishna markandeya 108 dasa

Thank you for explaning things (once again) as you understand them.

I do not know what Srila Prabhupadas thoughts were about Brahma. What did he mean when he said:

he begins his life as Brahma

https://iskcondesiretree.com/profiles/blogs/brahma-loka-vs-vaikuntha-loka-by-romapada-swami

Brahma is the problem here. If Brahma means an individual soul or something like that then there is no problem because we can all begin as that. But if Brahma means this:

http://www.krishna.com/topic-term/brahma

Then there is a problem.

I would like to understand this better:

As said previously BrahmA is citta or the mind the original jiva, creation in the dharma traditions comes from the mind, not from an outer force a big bang in science or an external creator God controlling all living beings, both of these theories ultimately deny free will , which is quite fashionable at the moment and are man made ideas, and subsequently quite dangerous the way its being propagated, mind creates either conditions that bind it to material existence or mind becomes liberated, you can see some slokas in Bhagavad Gita. 6.6 and 6.7 .

How does these theories ultimately deny free will?

And thank you for pointing to these slokas:

https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/6/verse/6

https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/6/verse/7

https://asitis.com/6/6.html

https://asitis.com/6/7.html

They are very beautifull.

Maybe you can shed some light over this conversation:

https://harekrishnarevolution.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/life-on-other-planets-as-per-vedas/

Srila Prabhupada seems to think that Brahma is a living entity somewhere in the universe and that he lives for a very long time. You do not seem to think this way?