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yajvan
12 June 2007, 09:03 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste vispulinga (spark of the linga, or the image, of Siva)

Satay in a post or two back has asked "Does talk about GOD matter to a hungry stomach".

What are your thoughts here? This is a very wise question.

Many Upanishad valli's (the sutra's themselves) begin with the invocation for health, food, abundance, and the like. One would think the risi's would not be so concerned with the acquisitions of things. So this prayer must be more then this. It is for the prayer that one does not become a sudra. At first glance , you are agast. Yajvan how can you think of this?

A sudra? Sudra in essence is not cast based. It means one who gets dissolved in sorrow. Even in the Chandogya Upanishad King Janasruti is called a sudra by the jnanin Raikva. Again, the double meaning of the wise. For the King he was seeking knowledge and not receiving the wisdom he was looking, hence the possibility of sorrow. Also sudra is used for one that serves others. The muni addressed the King as sudra as he was serving or being subordinate to the wealth he accumulated.

So for us, not having the fundamentals of life, the hungry stomach, looking for the roof over ones head - how does that influence ones pursuit of the Supreme?


pranams,

sm78
12 June 2007, 09:13 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

I think it is ancient wisdom that without the 3 basic needs (food shelter & clothing) fulfilled a human cannot even survive as a human ~ question about supreme doesn't even arise as such is a human pursuit.

Swami Vivekananda said the same thing.

Far from just quenching the hunger of the stomach, one needs to be an all-round 'successful' individual in worldly life to be successful in non-worldly matters. I don't know if such is a requirement, but definitely think it is the healthiest ideal.

But all these are only for Grihastas...question of hunger or clothing doesn't arise for one who has renounced the world. But Grihis form the necessary base for the society and are equal seekers of truth.

saidevo
12 June 2007, 11:53 AM
Namaste sm78.



Far from just quenching the hunger of the stomach, one needs to be an all-round 'successful' individual in worldly life to be successful in non-worldly matters. I don't know if such is a requirement, but definitely think it is the healthiest ideal.


For the spiritually inclined, I think, the pursuit of a 'successful' worldly life might come to an end when he/she is settled in life with roti, kapada aur makan--regular supply of food and necessary garments and an own house, besides the money/job/education that would fetch these things for the individual and his/her family members. We might also include some reasonable savings for the future and to meet the rise of cost of living. Any chasing beyond these basic necessities and comforts could generate needless desires that would retard spiritual progress. Hinduism prescribes charity as one of the principal dharmas of life.

When a person is thus settled in life, the individual should devote maximum possible time for Self-Realization following one or more of the three yogic paths. The individual should of course carry out the dharma ordained, but reduce other worldly activities that are unproductive even at the worldly level, such as watching the TV, studying the newspapers and magazines, gossiping, and just going around the city for the heck of it--to name a few.



But all these are only for Grihastas...question of hunger or clothing doesn't arise for one who has renounced the world. But Grihis form the necessary base for the society and are equal seekers of truth.


Ironically, it is the duty of the Grihastas (householders) to feed the renunciates. Even the orthodox renunciates among the Grihastas used to go on what is called unja vriddhi (getting grains as alms) singing the bhagavat nAmA (name of God), and then cooking their own food.

Whether poverty precludes spirituality or not, it does not preclude gaining knowledge. Tamil literature of the Sangam age has numerous examples of poverty-stricken poets and pundits seeking alms from the king by singing his praise. Thus arose the proverb 'the educated command honours where they go'.

The bottom line is perhaps that an empty stomach curses God but thinks of Him in real bhAvA (expression) by that very curse! The wise among the poor in India perhaps blame it on their karma and pass their days in suffering and hope. The Kali Yuga irony in the holy land of Bharat today is that a farmer is forced to live on rodent meat or even commit suicide while the politicians responsible to mitigate his plight wallow in wealth and comforts! The farmer never blames the politician, the politician never cares for the farmer and the gods appear to simply witness the drama of life. It causes shudder to think what worse can befall a country that no longer cares for its farmers who feed it.

satay
12 June 2007, 03:55 PM
Namaskar!
Thank you Yajvan for starting this thread.

The question came to me acutally by witnessing my own behaviour. Recently, I have been very busy with worldy activities. All of these activities are necessary for shall I say, 'survival'. As I perform these activities as a good soldier would or a good grahasta would, someone in me observes and is witnessing the silliness of all of these survival activities.

I observe that whenever I am absorbed in the worldly activities, awareness of supreme disappears and the 'sense' of 'he will just have to wait until I take care of immediate practical matters' takes over.

In a round about way, I am asking for all practical purposes, What good is GOD and Who Cares about it anyway? GOD seems to be business of those who posses intellect, buddhi etc. faculties. What of those who do not have such faculties or can not use them? Does GOD matter to them?

Then there is the question of the hungry stomach. What is my duty? Feeding my hungry child or renuncing the world, sitting and meditating?

And finally, I end with this question. Gautama Sidharta aka Buddha Shakyamuni is good for humanity but what of his wife and his child?

What is a 'Buddh's' duty to his wife and child?

Agnideva
12 June 2007, 05:50 PM
Namaste Satay,


I observe that whenever I am absorbed in the worldly activities, awareness of supreme disappears and the 'sense' of 'he will just have to wait until I take care of immediate practical matters' takes over.
Then there is the question of the hungry stomach. What is my duty? Feeding my hungry child or renuncing the world, sitting and meditating?
I think this is why I think the ancient sages set up the four ashrams. In the brahmacharya ashram, one studies and gains knowledge. In the grihastha ashram, one marries, earns and tends to family life. In the vanaprastha, one retires from family life after the children have grown up. And, finally in the sannyasa ashram, one renounces the world. Obviously this system has completely broken down in the present yuga, so we are left with questions about what is our duty.


And finally, I end with this question. Gautama Sidharta aka Buddha Shakyamuni is good for humanity but what of his wife and his child?
What is a 'Buddh's' duty to his wife and child?There are other instances like this such as Krishna Chaitanya also. Generally, it is said that they had a "higher calling" - their greater dharma was to teach the world. The greater dharma took precedence over their individual duties.

OM Shanti,
A.

saidevo
12 June 2007, 07:57 PM
Namaste everyone.



And finally, I end with this question. Gautama Sidharta aka Buddha Shakyamuni is good for humanity but what of his wife and his child?



There are other instances like this such as Krishna Chaitanya also. Generally, it is said that they had a "higher calling" - their greater dharma was to teach the world. The greater dharma took precedence over their individual duties.


In contrast, we have Adi Sankara and Ramana Maharshi. They both renounced their mother and other relatives. Sankara did perform the last rites of his mother as he had promised her. Ramana took his mother to his fold, gave her liberation and even built a temple on her samadhi.

And then we have many Grihasta renunciates: Lahiri Mahasaya, Yukteswar, and many present day Hindu gurus. This is how Hinduism is changing to accommodate the times, without diluting its core principles and teachings.

sm78
13 June 2007, 03:47 AM
Namaste sm78.
For the spiritually inclined, I think, the pursuit of a 'successful' worldly life might come to an end when he/she is settled in life with roti, kapada aur makan--regular supply of food and necessary garments and an own house, besides the money/job/education that would fetch these things for the individual and his/her family members. We might also include some reasonable savings for the future and to meet the rise of cost of living. Any chasing beyond these basic necessities and comforts could generate needless desires that would retard spiritual progress. Hinduism prescribes charity as one of the principal dharmas of life.

For the spiritually inclined who is yet in his grihastasrama, one must discharge his duties to his dependents to their full satisfaction. This is the only defination of 'success' I was implying. Success as in the sense of modern yank-careerism is a totally counter - spiritual.

None the less one must work tirelessly and try for living life to the best, as per his ashram and duties ~ not for self ends.

By performing karma in this world should one yearn to live a hundred years. Thus action does not bind thee, the doer. There is no other way than this. (Isha 2)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the original question of whether one can pursue God with a hungry stomach. For one who is starting the journey a full stomach is necessary to go the distance. For one who is already there, does it matter anymore ?? Hence we should separate out life story of realized and ordinary mortals.

None of the realized masters of our dharma told us to drop our works and pretend like them. We need to follow their teachings about truth, not their life stories.

saidevo
13 June 2007, 05:27 AM
For the spiritually inclined who is yet in his grihastasrama, one must discharge his duties to his dependents to their full satisfaction. This is the only defination of 'success' I was implying. Success as in the sense of modern yank-careerism is a totally counter - spiritual.


I agree with this and the other observation of yours, in toto.

satay
13 June 2007, 09:15 AM
Success as in the sense of modern yank-careerism is a totally counter - spiritual.


namaste singhi,
I agree with your comments except for the one above. May I share a different point of view on this with you.

Yes, the modern 'yank-careerism' is counter spiritual but it is necessary in this dog eat dog world.

Again, I have to come back to the fundamental problem I have: how to be spiritual while at the same time being practical in worldly affairs. It sounds all good to read and write about how we should live with minimal desires, renounce most things etc. etc. but for me at least, I think there must be a balance. This balance point is the problem I am having. I can't find it!

Either I become too involved with spiritual matters and that results in neglect of practical matters, or to the most times I end up on the other extreme where my focus becomes worldly matters and spiritual matters disappear.

Instead trolling another thread, I will keep quite now and read instead.

yajvan
13 June 2007, 09:17 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Excellent conversation and views on this matter. There are multiple ways of discussing this . I cannot help but think of Valmilki's plight before he became a rishi. He was a robber. I must think he did not think much of the Lord as he was busy tending to the needs of the family and the body.

When he encountered the muni's that would give him instructions on Self Realization, Valmiki asked ' but what of my family'. The muni's told him to go and ask his family if they would share in his sin of robbing and the results he would bare due to this behavior. None of his family volunteered their help.

For me I think there are two lessons here. When the spiritual impulse arises ( the muni's encountering Valmilki) will one be ready? Will I be ready? Is one prepared to drop the actions of the householder or more importantly, those behaviours that are not condusive to ones SELF elevation?

I think this is one perspective for me... yet I cannot help but think of those less fortunate that must find food in the alleys of the world. That look for warmth in boxes, and struggle in this life. Of what mind do they have of the Lord unless it has rolled over from a previous life?

It is our (my) responsibility to help these people as we can ( donations,feeding, helping hand). Many of these people have strong Sani ( Saturn) infliunces in them, and by helping them, you are offering to Sani, and can do it in this manner if one wishes to.

I do not have the answers to this questions we ponder on this string. It is hard to be 'noble' on an empty stomach and no roof over one's head, Yet I think of the following each time:

Satyanna pramaditavyam
Dharmanna pramaditavyam
Kusalanna pramaditavyam
Never swerve away from Truth
never swerve away from duty
never neglect your welfare; swerve
not from any act for the protection of yourself
Taittiriya Uanishad 1.11.1



data eka räma bhikäri sari duniyä - The giver is the one Räma, the world is a beggar



dhanyavadah,

Ganeshprasad
13 June 2007, 09:54 AM
Pranam everyone

Can we remain inactive? No, there is no getting away from it, bound by the material nature we will be forced to act. What is our duty?

Krishna says

karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

Primarily we will always act for our selfish desires which we then extend it to our nearest and dearest and if we have room then we may extend it our society, town country and so on. Unfortunately our endeavours are mainly chewing the chewed and therefore we find our self bored and unfulfilled. The time ebb by and before we know it, it is time to go.

Therefore it is advised to live in this world like a guest easy said then done but no matter how hard we try we will be forced to go.

Gujrati bhajan,
Kona mate kare che tu atlu, kya thi aviyo ne kaya tu jais
For whom are you doing all this, from where did you come from and where would you go?

In this age of kali harinama, harinam, harinam eva kevalam. Chant the holy name! Chant the holy name! Chant the holy name! In this age of hypocrisy and ...

And eat lots of Parsad.



I do not have the answers to this questions we ponder on this string. It is hard to be 'noble' on an empty stomach and no roof over one's head, Yet I think of the following each time:

Satyanna pramaditavyam
Dharmanna pramaditavyam
Kusalanna pramaditavyam
Never swerve away from Truth
never swerve away from duty
never neglect your welfare; swerve
not from any act for the protection of yourself
Taittiriya Uanishad 1.11.1

Raja Harishchandra comes to mind, yajvan ji nice post.


Jai Shree Krishna

saidevo
13 June 2007, 10:32 AM
Namaste Satay.



Again, I have to come back to the fundamental problem I have: how to be spiritual while at the same time being practical in worldly affairs. It sounds all good to read and write about how we should live with minimal desires, renounce most things etc. etc. but for me at least, I think there must be a balance. This balance point is the problem I am having. I can't find it!

Either I become too involved with spiritual matters and that results in neglect of practical matters, or to the most times I end up on the other extreme where my focus becomes worldly matters and spiritual matters disappear.


In my search for Hindu spiritual books (pdf files) on the Net, I caught this valuable book: http://raghavendrakg.com/Documents/Discourses%20of%20Shri%20Atmananda.pdf

The book has a brief account of this householder yogi's life. It's reassuring to read how this man, serving in the police department did his spiritual and yogic sadhana, got realization, wanted to become a sannyasin but his guru prohibited it and asked to remain a householder for his entire life. Here is an interesting quote from his life:



Many years later (in 1949), Sir S. Radhakrishnan interviewed Shri Atmananda, at the latter’s residence, Parvati Vilasam, in Trivandrum. During this interview, Sir Radhakrishnan asked out of curiosity: ‘Well Sir, is it a fact that you had all your spiritual sadhana while serving in the Police Department?’

Shri Atmananda replied firmly: ‘Yes, it is perfectly true. And I am quite serious when I say that if anybody sought my advice regarding the vocation or profession most helpful towards spiritual advancement, I would always recommend either the police or the military. Because they offer the maximum obstacles and temptations. Success obtained under such conditions is final and irrevocable.’

sm78
13 June 2007, 11:28 AM
namaste singhi,
I agree with your comments except for the one above. May I share a different point of view on this with you.

Yes, the modern 'yank-careerism' is counter spiritual but it is necessary in this dog eat dog world.

Satay, being a dog in this dog eats dog world is fine, when the reason is as per dharma...and the only reason to become a dog for a Grihi is this:-

one must discharge his duties to his dependents to their full satisfaction.

For then it does no more a dog work, but becomes karma yog.

But the moment, one does it because of his own personal ambition ~ it ceases to be so.

That's my understanding and practice as I type this message from my office at 10:00PM IST, working like a dog ;).

Namaste.

yajvan
13 June 2007, 01:58 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Krishna says

karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty. Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasad (et.al)
A very good post... if I may, I see this verse slightly different and ask for your consideration and others' for the following idea:
You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' (BG 2.47).
For me the difference is the fruits of one's actions. That is, no matter
what our efforts, we cannot control the quality and quantity of the outcome. For me this is a key understanding to this passage. Because we initiate the act, cause and effect are now in play. [ the ultimate actions comes from the 3 gunas], yet we cannot predict is outcome to the nth degree. Sometimes people are successful in varying degree's - limited to extreme success, doing the same action, yet the outcomes vary significantly.
How does one get Maximum success is the instruction of Krsna , yogasta kuru karmani, then the Universe is working with you, but we can leave that for another discussion.

Krsna also says, …unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17). Simply stated , actions go far and wide and the results of those actions fructify at different times. Its as if you are walking down the street and you find something on the ground, say a gold coin, something of good fortune. Or a person walks across the street and (unfortunately) gets hit by a car. At that instant no action was induced to find the coin, it was there. Like that actions are unfathomable, as they come to fruition in time, space and cause. [ this has happened to me more then I wish to count - that is the wack in the head!].
This is apurva, or unseen potency which bring about events from past actions, either individually or collective actions of a family group or society.



We reviewed this concept during this post and its exchange of ideas:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10895&postcount=1


pranams,

satay
13 June 2007, 02:03 PM
But the moment, one does it because of his own personal ambition ~ it ceases to be so.


Namaste.

namaskar,
I agree again except for this quote above. What's wrong with personal ambition? If personal ambition gives satisfaction should it not be treated like a quality? Do we want our children to be without ambition?

For example me, I was born in a working family, not poor, not rich. But it is only due to ambition that I can say that I am now in the upper middle class of society.

Why must we set aside wordly success while pursuing spiritual matters? Can there be no balance between the two? These are just questions not necessarily asked to get an answer but just to clear my mind.

I think there is a way to find a balance but for me I have been failing at it miserably.

Kaos
13 June 2007, 04:06 PM
One who neither hates nor desires the fruits of activities is known to be always renounced. Such a person, liberated from all dualities, easily overcomes material bondage and is completely liberated, O mighty-armed Arjuna.

- Bhagavad Gita (5-3)


Sometimes I have a full stomach, sometimes I have an empty stomach. I work to keep this material body alive and healthy and also to support family. However, I recognize that I am not the doer but the Lord acts through me.

Hare Krishna!

yajvan
13 June 2007, 04:53 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

namaskar,
Why must we set aside wordly success while pursuing spiritual matters? Can there be no balance between the two? I think there is a way to find a balance but for me I have been failing at it miserably.

Namaste Satay,

this is called skill in action... this is the teaching of Krsna in the first 6 chapters of the Bhagavad gita.

Many wish to remove one's self of daily life because of its binding effects on us. As one advances in ones sadhana, the impressions become less on the sadaka. It is kinda like this...

NO practice of sadhana - impressions are like a knife drawing a line on a rock - a mark is made, and stays with the rock for a very long time. This is most of society. Life happens and we are in the throws of the 3 guna's.
One begins his/her practice and begins to culture pure awareness, this restful alertness within ones nervous system - then it is like a knife drawing a line in the sand - the impression is there, then it is filled in by the sand.
One continues the practice and it is like a knife drawing a line in water, we see the line, then the line is gone.
And one continues, pure awareness becomes part of ones daily life, and it is like a knife making a line in the air. The impression is not there.This is why one would choose to meditate, to setup the conditions for the SELF to realize itSELF to itSELF. When this occurs , we then reside in our natural state. No impressions are deposited. There are no longer vasana's that keep us bound to this birth-rebirth cycle.
This is the reason so many for eons have desired this state. this is 'skill in action' - WE act, without the binding influence of action. This is the wisdom of the Gita... the wisdom of the tradition of masters to bring this to us. This is the wisdom of the Yoga Sutra's of Patanjali-muni.
Jai Guru Deva

pranams,

Nachiketa
13 June 2007, 06:14 PM
2 cents from a green horn
Dear Satay ji,
The trick in trying to get the balance is, I think, in turning off (letting go) at the right time. How TO CHOOSE THE Right time? …...That is not in our hands (is anything in our hands?).
The Lord decides for you. If you are finding it difficult to let go then that is what the Lord wants (probably to give a few more whacks ;) ). So, take it easy….take a deep breath….and feel the presence of The Infinite Consciousness and do what you think needs to be done. Have no guilt…the Lord acts through you.
My humble pranams
Namo namaha
Nachiketa

sm78
14 June 2007, 01:37 AM
namaskar,
I agree again except for this quote above. What's wrong with personal ambition? If personal ambition gives satisfaction should it not be treated like a quality?

There may be nothing wrong with personal ambition, but it is a barrier to "my" greater ambition of self development. "I" choose the later.

Its upto the person to decide which is more important to him. There is no right-wrong here.

satay
14 June 2007, 08:38 AM
There may be nothing wrong with personal ambition, but it is a barrier to "my" greater ambition of self development. "I" choose the later.

Its upto the person to decide which is more important to him. There is no right-wrong here.

ah...Thanks for clarifying this Singhi. I admire your ambition.

yajvan
14 June 2007, 08:54 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

There may be nothing wrong with personal ambition, but it is a barrier to "my" greater ambition of self development. "I" choose the later.

Its upto the person to decide which is more important to him. There is no right-wrong here.

Namaste sm78 & satay, [ i hope it's ok to join this conversation with you and satay?]

For me, my 'personal ambition' = 'greater ambition' the realization of the SELF. For me I am blessed.
It has been an age old conversation the desires are bad. I do not believe this is the case. When desires are directed in a satvic direction, then this movement of prakrti to this is rewarding.

Krsna says we cannot stop acting even for a moment ( all the functions of the body, thoughts, etc) even the thought of not acting , is an action. It is making our ambitions fruitful, to the unfold of the SELF, that is the key.
AND being a householder does not stop one from realizing the SELF. It is not an either/or propositing as I see it. I think of all the rishi's thathad childern, hundreds... they were householders, no? For aportion of their life this was the duty of their asrama.

The wise say in every case, desires are there to bring one to Liberation. It may come this life, or in the 1000th life, but it will come. This is the wiring of the human being.

Now, the argument usually goes, what of the robber, the thief, the Hitler's of this loka? Their desire is for more [ power, money, control, etc] . This is a stepping stone to the 'most' , infinity. Are they noble causes... no. Would I prefer that this was not the case,Yes. But we live in Kali yuga and it is the way of the world for now.

Do we condone their actions? Nope. This is why guidance is needed. A flowering bush can become a beautiful part of the garden ( our society) when the gardener is there to guide the bush. The bush can become a wild weed , out of control strangling the other flowers in the garden.

Like that, that is how I see these desires... who is are gardener? The guru, the teacher, the instructor, mother, father.


pranams,

Ganeshprasad
14 June 2007, 10:22 AM
Pranam Yajvan ji



Namaste Ganeshprasad (et.al)

Please enlighten me what does et.al stand for?

Yes we have had this discussion before, if you prefer we can go back there or continue here.



I see this verse slightly different and ask for your consideration and others' for the following idea:

You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' (BG 2.47).

I have a different understanding of the verse, I shell try explain why, I feel I neither have control nor the result there off.

First let us consider here your two statements to me it seems at odd.



Like that actions are unfathomable, as they come to fruition in time, space and cause. [ this has happened to me more then I wish to count - that is the wack in the head!].
This is apurva, or unseen potency which bring about events from past actions, either individually or collective actions of a family group or society.


Actions we perform are largely forced upon us as you say events from the past that comes to fruition which are unfathomable. so how do we have control over our actions?

Bhagvan gita further explains

pancaitani maha-baho
karanani nibodha me
sankhye krtante proktani
siddhaye sarva-karmanam

adhisthanam tatha karta
karanam ca prthag-vidham
vividhas ca prthak cesta
daivam caivatra pancamam



Learn from Me, O Arjuna, the five causes, as described in the Saamkhya doctrine, for the accomplishment of all actions.

The place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately daivam. (18.13/14)

sarira-van-manobhir yat
karma prarabhate narah
nyayyam va viparitam va
pancaite tasya hetavah

Whatever action, whether right or wrong, one performs by thought, word, and deed; these are its five causes. (18.15)

I like to think I have control over the actions that I perform yet I can't stop wondering who is actually pulling the strings.

It seems most of the time I am reacting to events, I eat because I am hungry, I sleep because I am tired I defend because I am attacked.
Where is my choice and control over any action? So in this worldly pursuit I feel I am helpless.





For me the difference is the fruits of one's actions. That is, no matter
what our efforts, we cannot control the quality and quantity of the outcome. For me this is a key understanding to this passage. Because we initiate the act, cause and effect are now in play. [ the ultimate actions comes from the 3 gunas], yet we cannot predict is outcome to the nth degree. Sometimes people are successful in varying degree's - limited to extreme success, doing the same action, yet the outcomes vary significantly.
Krsna also says, …unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17).

Yes Ghana kamana gati

I agree up to a point, because past karma and present effort has significant impact on failure or success of our endeavours.

I probably will now contradict my self but I am also a firm believer that with determination and dedication one can achieve almost anything in life only sometimes extra effort is required to overcome various obstacles.

Was it not sati Ansuya stop the sun rising? Sati Savitri brought back her husband from Yamraja, Bhagirath Raja, Vishvamitra rishi, Markandmuni this are just a few examples.

I see you have touched upon desires in your latest post and I think this is the key to all our Actions. There are those which binds us to this material world and others propel us to higher dimensions it all depends what we choose


Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
14 June 2007, 01:48 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam Yajvan ji

Please enlighten me what does et.al stand for?

Yes we have had this discussion before, if you prefer we can go back there or continue here.
I have a different understanding of the verse, I shell try explain why, I feel I neither have control nor the result there off.

First let us consider here your two statements to me it seems at odd.

Actions we perform are largely forced upon us as you say events from the past that comes to fruition which are unfathomable. so how do we have control over our actions?

Bhagvan gita further explains

pancaitani maha-baho
karanani nibodha me
sankhye krtante proktani
siddhaye sarva-karmanam

adhisthanam tatha karta
karanam ca prthag-vidham
vividhas ca prthak cesta
daivam caivatra pancamam

Learn from Me, O Arjuna, the five causes, as described in the Saamkhya doctrine, for the accomplishment of all actions.

The place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately daivam. (18.13/14)

sarira-van-manobhir yat
karma prarabhate narah
nyayyam va viparitam va
pancaite tasya hetavah

Whatever action, whether right or wrong, one performs by thought, word, and deed; these are its five causes. (18.15)

I like to think I have control over the actions that I perform yet I can't stop wondering who is actually pulling the strings.

It seems most of the time I am reacting to events, I eat because I am hungry, I sleep because I am tired I defend because I am attacked.
Where is my choice and control over any action? So in this worldly pursuit I feel I am helpless.
Yes Ghana kamana gati

I agree up to a point, because past karma and present effort has significant impact on failure or success of our endeavours.

I probably will now contradict my self but I am also a firm believer that with determination and dedication one can achieve almost anything in life only sometimes extra effort is required to overcome various obstacles.

Was it not sati Ansuya stop the sun rising? Sati Savitri brought back her husband from Yamraja, Bhagirath Raja, Vishvamitra rishi, Markandmuni this are just a few examples.

I see you have touched upon desires in your latest post and I think this is the key to all our Actions. There are those which binds us to this material world and others propel us to higher dimensions it all depends what we choose
Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasad,
First let me thank you for taking the time to collect your ideas and post them. I recommend we take pieces of this puzzle at a time. On the last posts http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...95&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10895&postcount=1) we have discussed this, and look for others to contribute. Saidevo made excellent points there, so lets be sure this is a goup discssion.
First, lets do the easy parts!

et.al is latin from et alii (and others), for all others... that is I address you, but also consider all the others that may read the post. Some write it et.al and some write it et al. note the location of the period.
Next - let me see if I can zoom in on 'control' the crux of this conversation. Let me please ask for your patience as I paint the picture, so there will be multiple points, but all focused just on the idea of control=choice.

The control I believe found in the Gita is 'you have contol over action alone' , says krsna. That is, I get to choose the action. I can choose to play baseball, and choose to bat the ball. Even though I may know all the laws of physics to do calculations, of F = MA, and be able to predict the distance the ball may go once I hit it, I cannot be certain it will go that distance. I have no contol of the result ( i.e. the fruits of hitting the ball).
Now, that is my control, the freedom to choose to hit the ball in this life, now. Pehaps you are considering total control of the action and it's fruit? this is not the case, only the selection of action I get to choose.
Now, actions are unfathomable says Krsna ( Gita 4.17). Why is that ? Because of Prarabhdha Karma; past actions coming to fruition in the present life. Yet they were your actions or contributions you have chosen in the past. Past could be 5 weeks ago, or 5 lifes ago, but they now come to fruition.
And what of today's action? they are Kriyamana karma - the seeds you are planting today - they can ripen in this life, or in the future.
That is why Krsna says they are unfathomable - because of one's past, the fruits can come at different times...
and can be co-mingled. This does not suggest you cannot chose today to do something AND reap the benefits of it today? I bake a cake and eat it today - i benefit from the labor of my selection in about one hour. Now did past actions make me a baker or a Cook? This is the unfathomable part. Some of this can be figured out in ones Janma Nakshatra ( birth charts).
I walk down the street and get hit by a truck - this was not my choice today. In this case your argument is, That is my point yajvan, you did not have contol of that action, no control. This is correct, yet what was the Sancita karma ( aggregate of all actions good, bad and mixed of the native) that manifest at that time? Can someone take it apart? Was it 1/3rd this life, 2/3rd past life ( Prarabha Karma)? This is the wisdom of Krsna - as he knows there are multiple strings and origins to the aggregate action that happens and difficult at best to unravel, hence Unfathomable. But in the final analysis, you and I have Kriyamana Karma being planted this second.
As I type - how will this effect the reader? IN 10 lifetimes what was this influence? What is the punya associated of this action with me?These points are quite profound and go to the core of life and our existence... I think I have outlined my reasoning that seems to hold water as they say. Let me finish with one set of actions that I ponder regularly ( from a Jyotish perspective)

I cannot help to think of the people on the plane in September, New York, 9/11 - what did they all share in common that they died all at the exact place and time? The free choice to buy a ticket to Los Angles, yet why they died all at the same time is unfathomable. What led them to buying the ticket to Los Angles? Work, Family, Vacations, etc etc. All actions chosen of them to accomplish some action, all different... yet the common theme of death by plane, at the same time, same place Unfathomable.

Now, some of these people will come back to this loka, some will visit other levels of existence...all different , all based upon past choices that bare fruit at different times - so says the wisdom of Ayur Jyotish and Puinya chakra wisdom.

pranams,

p.s. - I use get hit by a truck, for I witnessed this happen out of the 'blue' as they say on a few occasions. And I have had the unfortunate experience as a child of getting hit by cars not just one time, but on several occasions... never seen it coming. Unfathomable.

Znanna
14 June 2007, 06:00 PM
I cannot help to think of the people on the plane in September, New York, 9/11 - what did they all share in common that they died all at the exact place and time? The free choice to buy a ticket to Los Angles, yet why they died all at the same time is unfathomable. What let them to buying the ticket to Los Angles? Work, Family, Vacations, etc etc. All actions chosen of them to accomplish some action, all different... yet the common theme of death by plane, at the same time, same place Unfathomable.

Now, some of these people will come back to this loka, some will visit other levels of existence...all different , all based upon past choices that bare fruit at different times - so says the wisdom of Ayur Jyotish and Puinya chakra wisdom.



Namaste, yajvan,

9/11 ... I was there, and it is a dear reference to me. I'd add to your comments how interesting it was that so many were NOT there, had appointments elsewhere, were late, went out for coffee, etc. Those buildings and the immediate surrounds held tens of thousands of people on a given day, yet fewer than 10 percent perished.

Here's a poem I wrote about my reflections on the day ... I suppose it was in my stars to participate in the event; the massive outpouring of emotion then, followed by the tsunami which struck so many more ...








The North Star

Flying paper, a remembered ticker tape parade.
Exploding fireball. Surreal. Unreal. A movie reel.
Get out. Go north. Away. (They said to stay!)
I left, thirsty, trying to communicate. No connection.
It was no accident.

Locked down, get out of town, nowhere to go. Wait.

Nothing will be the same again. Wandering souls,
We are trying to get home. Ghosts of dust and ashes,
We breathe your life and remember. It hurts.
Burning, our fear, our dreams, assimilated.
We become you, we are all martyrs, ascending the
Ladders of life, searching for a path home.

Peace be with you, our brothers and sisters.
We shall find the light of the stars together, as we are one.
We are no longer innocent, yet we enter the world again with new wonder.
Peace in turmoil.
Serenity in chaos.
Blessed and cursed with freedom and love.

The kindness of strangers.



ZN

Ganeshprasad
15 June 2007, 10:17 AM
Pranam Yajvan

Thanks for your explanation, I really do not have any issue in regards to your explanation on karma and its working and it is, as you say Unfathomable.
We apply the meaning of Adhikaar as slightly different even though it makes no difference in the final analysis. The word Adhikaara means ability and privilege, prerogative, jurisdiction, discretion, right, preference, choice, rightful claim, authority, control.

As others join us we can further explore Bhagvat Gita and its teaching as regards how one can best perform the duty prescribed to us and free us from bondage of rebirth


Incidence however sad or pleasant that happens in our life reaping the benefit of karma, we must always take the positive out of it , in this regard one story comes to mind I shell narrate it as sort as poss.

Minister of a king had a habit of saying every thing happens for the best, one day the king cut his finger and true to his habit minister said it happened for the best. King in his rage sent his best friend to the prison.
One day the king went hunting alone in the forest and in the thick it got lost and got caught by the junglees who were looking to sacrifice a human, ready to beheaded, the priest noticed the missing finger and immediately released the king.
The king upon getting back to his kingdom released his minister and repented the fact that he jailed his best friend and asked his forgiveness. The king asked his friend sure, my loosing the finger, saved me from death but tell me my friend what was your fault, you had to suffer for nothing how is that, that happened for the best?
Minister replied my dear king had you not jailed me I certainly would have accompanied you for the hunt as you never went hunting without me, in that case I certainly would have been sacrificed.

Jai Shree Krishna

Kaos
15 June 2007, 11:50 AM
Thank you for sharing the above story Ganeshprasad.

Everything happens for a reason. The Lord is the Supreme, Krsna, the supreme controller. We, the living beings prakrti, are predominated over.

Because we are only parts, we tend to be affected by the modes of nature.

yajvan
15 June 2007, 01:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~

Pranam Yajvan

We apply the meaning of Adhikaar as slightly different even though it makes no difference in the final analysis. The word Adhikaara means ability and privilege, prerogative, jurisdiction, discretion, right, preference, choice, rightful claim, authority, control.

As others join us we can further explore Bhagvat Gita and its teaching as regards how one can best perform the duty prescribed to us and free us from bondage of rebirth


Incidence however sad or pleasant that happens in our life reaping the benefit of karma, we must always take the positive out of it , in this regard one story comes to mind I shell narrate it as sort as poss.


Namaste Ganeshprasad,
thank you for the post... and as we have discussed, lets go deeper and wider as you see fit. Only good will come of this.

Regarding adhikarah - yes I see your point, and even though slightly different, your expansion of the word brings more richness to the verse. In a 'turse' manner it is seen as 'right'. I have also seen adhikarah used as 'qualified or qualification' and as authority. Some people are called Adhikariin's and hence qualified or eligible for liberation.

If we take Adhi +karah: Adhi is conventionally used as 'with regard to or based upon' + karah and its root kr , to act. We see 'kr' used in karma, karta (agent or doer), karya or effect/product. A very pregnant word , yes? so Adhi+karah is with regarding to actions. As krsna points to our actions and perhaps our discretion, choice or prerogative to act.

[ side note: some will also see Adi which does not = Adhi. Adi is is used as 'first or prime' like Adi Shankara, the 1st Shankara]

re: Actions for the best. Yes I too think of this, yet find the timing of good is sometimes lax or so far distant that one cannot connect the action with the result. I hear a joke today, and laugh 6 month's later, not sure why I am laughing. Like that many people get acted upon today and cringe, as the good is not readily apparent. Think of lifetimes, I hear a joke today, and and laugh 10,000 years from now!

again , thank you and look to others for thier insights on this noble conversation.

pranams,

Ganeshprasad
15 June 2007, 04:06 PM
Thank you for sharing the above story Ganeshprasad.

Everything happens for a reason. The Lord is the Supreme, Krsna, the supreme controller. We, the living beings prakrti, are predominated over.

Because we are only parts, we tend to be affected by the modes of nature.

Pranam Kaos
Can i ask what does Kaos stand for?



I am glad you like that story, I like to remember that when ever misery strikes and thank my lucky stars that I somehow been spared from even worse calamity.

My mother would always remind me that puniya from purvajs (ancestors) have some how helped to minimize the accident. These are all subtle ways to imbibe virtues of doing good keeping dharma.

I agree every thing happens for a reason.



Arjun inquired from Krishna about the nature of prakrti

arjuna uvaca
prakrtim purusam caiva
ksetram ksetra-jnam eva ca
etad veditum icchami
jnanam jneyam ca kesava

sri-bhagavan uvaca
idam sariram kaunteya
ksetram ity abhidhiyate
etad yo vetti tam prahuh
ksetra-jna iti tad-vidah

Arjuna said: O my dear Krsna, I wish to know about prakrti [nature], purusa [the enjoyer], and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the end of knowledge. The Blessed Lord then said: This body, O son of Kunti, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field.
13.1-2

and as you say Because we are only parts, we tend to be affected by the modes of nature.
as confirmed by Krishna.

mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati

JeevAtma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Jiva gets bound due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

Jai Shree Krishna