PDA

View Full Version : Surrender, its approach and implications



yajvan
18 June 2007, 03:49 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaos http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=12966#post12966)
Namaste yajvan and all, Why seek the how outside of ourselves.

Namaste Kaos, (et al.)
If it is ok with you, I thought to lift this out of the current folder of
Abrahamic Religions and God Realization conversation. The string there has a different purpose. So with your insights , and the HDF Members, I would like to address this... perhaps there are golden nuggets in this conversation.

Painted cakes to do not satisfy hunger, say the wise. To talk of the cake, yet not showing the hungry how to obtain the cake leaves one still in need. There is no doubt that 'seeking' is inside of us, as that is where the SELF resides.
Yet for many on this forum, we look for the practical instuction , or discussion, on how to do this. You have been kind enough to tell is about the cake e.g. 'all living entities should surrender to His control and that surrender will make them happy' - Please now help HDF on the how; we know it is INSIDE us, now what does one do to unfold this?
If you asked an HDF member, please tell me how to walk... they would instruct, pick up one foot, place it forward, shift your weight and as you go forward, bring the other foot forward, and your locomotion will send you walking...The instruction is practical, I have a meausre of progress i.e. I have moved forward, yes? I can see I am making progress by the meters or inches I have progressed.Like that Kaos, if you can, and have the skills of this, lets us know how to surrender. The practical method, the measure one should look for - for moving forward.
If this is not within your skillset, that too is fine. If you have surrendered, and are making progress, then the stars rejoice in your progress. Perhaps you are lost for words as this is a subtle matter.

We on HDF are simple people and open minded - so as one gives suggestions, we also look for the 'blue print' a hint, a direction , on how to achieve ones suggestions.

If you do not know how to accomplish this, then you can ask others on the forum, this is where one leaves their ego at the door.

Let noble thoughts come to us from every side - Rig-Veda, 1-89-i

Kaos
18 June 2007, 06:41 PM
Namaste yajvan and all.

Thank you yajvan for moving this topic to a separate thread.
Yes, the Lord is the Supreme Controller and is giving directions as He desires. Therefore, we, prakrti are controlled. Realizing that is the kind of surrender that will make us happy.

In the Bhagavad Gita (7-5), Krishna says:

"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, consisting of all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe."


In the Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.4

ekasyaiva mamamsasya
jivasyaiva maha (http://bhagavatam.net/m/maha)-mate (http://bhagavatam.net/m/mate)
bandho (http://bhagavatam.net/b/bandho) 'syavidyayanadir
vidyaya (http://bhagavatam.net/v/vidyaya) ca (http://bhagavatam.net/c/ca) tathetarah

The living entity jiva is part and parcel of the Supreme. But due to ignorance, the living entity has been suffering from material bondage from time immemorial. By knowledge, however, the living entity can be liberated.

yajvan
18 June 2007, 07:31 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste yajvan and all.

Thank you yajvan for moving this topic to a separate thread.
Yes, the Lord is the Supreme Controller and is giving directions as He desires. Therefore, we, prakrti are controlled. Realizing that is the kind of surrender that will make us happy.

In the Bhagavad Gita (7-5), Krishna says:

"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, consisting of all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe."


In the Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.4

ekasyaiva mamamsasya
jivasyaiva maha (http://bhagavatam.net/m/maha)-mate (http://bhagavatam.net/m/mate)
bandho (http://bhagavatam.net/b/bandho) 'syavidyayanadir
vidyaya (http://bhagavatam.net/v/vidyaya)ca (http://bhagavatam.net/c/ca) tathetarah

The living entity jiva is part and parcel of the Supreme. But due to ignorance, the living entity has been suffering from material bondage from time immemorial. By knowledge, however, the living entity can be liberated.


Namaste Kaos,
All wonderful quotes, thank you...yet I fail to grasp how these assist the seeker to surrender, the 'how to'. I have read these quotes and am still lacking putting 2+2 together to = surrender and the instructions thereof. My dear Kaos, let me be bold in saying, you are missing the point.

The way to surrender must come from the SELF, establishd in the SELF first. As I see you are using Srila Prabupada's veribage from the Gita, a recommedation may perhaps would be to take a look at his commentary of Chapt 9, sutra 2 and 3, Here you will find the beginning of the answer given by Srila.

If we revert back to Chapters 2 and 3 this is the foundation for surrender being laid there. One must have the level of Being established. Sri Krsna , Jagadguru, the Most Wise , lays this out systematically in the Gita.
Surrender is not a 'mood making'. One day I really 'feel' close to Him, the next day, I am not much interested in this and have other things to pursue. I am not suggesting these are your words or intent; it is the example of going from mood to mood, provoked by the graha's , the 3 gunas. Life tosses us here and there in this world. We Stop being tossed when we become established in the SELF; we are now capable to surrender, and this surrender will now be fruitful to pursue.

Surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord. We can do the best we can before this experience of turiya, of Brahman, but its based upon the mind and thinking, not the depth of Being. One needs to be established in ones own SELF, outside of what you have rightfully pointed to , that of prakriti, or the 3 gunas.

Kesava says be without the 3 guna's back in Chapt 2. This is the foundation for surrender, for service (if one wishes to serve). One needs to surrender from the level of the SELF, then one is capable of this , a proper way of surrendering. Before this, it is mood-making like a ship with no rudder; Surrendering without confirmation from HIM, that a relationship has taken place. It is the state of transcendental consciousness that is needed for the beginning of this surrender to unfold.

Thanks for listening - I ask other HDF Members to bring thier skills and knowledge to this converdsation and take it further...there is much more we can comment on, if desired.

pranams,

Kaos
18 June 2007, 08:25 PM
The way to surrender must come from the SELF, establishd in the SELF first.




That's right, the surrender must come from the Self, as He desires.

And yes, surrender does not come by mere intellectual learning...
Thank you for re-iterating that.

Kaos
18 June 2007, 08:56 PM
An analogy would be like that of the arm that cannot function properly without the nutrition provided by the stomach.

yajvan
18 June 2007, 09:19 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


An analogy would be like that of the arm that cannot function properly without the nutrition provided by the stomach.

hummm...

mirabai
19 June 2007, 01:00 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste Kaos,
All wonderful quotes, thank you...yet I fail to grasp how these assist the seeker to surrender, the 'how to'. I have read these quotes and am still lacking putting 2+2 together to = surrender and the instructions thereof. My dear Kaos, let me be bold in saying, you are missing the point.

The way to surrender must come from the SELF, establishd in the SELF first. As I see you are using Srila Prabupada's veribage from the Gita, a recommedation may perhaps would be to take a look at his commentary of Chapt 9, sutra 2 and 3, Here you will find the beginning of the answer given by Srila.

If we revert back to Chapters 2 and 3 this is the foundation for surrender being laid there. One must have the level of Being established. Sri Krsna , Jagadguru, the Most Wise , lays this out systematically in the Gita.
Surrender is not a 'mood making'. One day I really 'feel' close to Him, the next day, I am not much interested in this and have other things to pursue. I am not suggesting these are your words or intent; it is the example of going from mood to mood, provoked by the graha's , the 3 gunas. Life tosses us here and there in this world. We Stop being tossed when we become established in the SELF; we are now capable to surrender, and this surrender will now be fruitful to pursue.

Surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord. We can do the best we can before this experience of turiya, of Brahman, but its based upon the mind and thinking, not the depth of Being. One needs to be established in ones own SELF, outside of what you have rightfully pointed to , that of prakriti, or the 3 gunas.

Kesava says be without the 3 guna's back in Chapt 2. This is the foundation for surrender, for service (if one wishes to serve). One needs to surrender from the level of the SELF, then one is capable of this , a proper way of surrendering. Before this, it is mood-making like a ship with no rudder; Surrendering without confirmation from HIM, that a relationship has taken place. It is the state of transcendental consciousness that is needed for the beginning of this surrender to unfold.

Thanks for listening - I ask other HDF Members to bring thier skills and knowledge to this converdsation and take it further...there is much more we can comment on, if desired.

pranams,
Namaste Yajvan,
Thank you for the post, and for inviting Members to bring their skills and knowledge. I have little of either but if you would humor me on comments?
I like your questions, and I notice that sometimes more can be learned from questions than from any other mode. At least it's so in my own case.

When you say that surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord, I think the converse may be also true that devotion can just as well bring surrender; in other words repeatedly performing acts of devotion to the Lord can bring one to the point of surrender. Would you agree?
Because although I also agree with you that as you say, One needs to be established in ones own SELF, outside of prakriti, the very acts of selfless devotion performed over a period of time will gradually lead one to focus less on sense organs and increasingly toward a higher mindfulness or awareness, bringing it outside of prakriti and the 3 gunas. Perhaps mood-making, while not a permanent transformation of course. A ship with no rudder might not take you across the sea, but could it perhaps keep you afloat until you encounter one that will? So mightn't it be a step toward selflessness? And selflessness must surely be a step toward surrender.
Would you correct me if You disagree?

I realize the scope of your conversation with Kaos is on a deeper philosophical plane than these points, but its where I am. :)

satay
19 June 2007, 02:47 AM
namaste Kaos,
We are asking for the 'practical steps' on how to do 'surrender' to the Lord.

Yajvan, perhaps our friend nirotu may join this conversation. From his posts on HDF, it seems that he is the only one that knows how to hold the hand of the Lord.

I even asked this question earlier in another thread but no one replied. Let's hope that we get some practical steps here. I am very interested to know how to surrender.

sm78
19 June 2007, 07:49 AM
I feel that surrender and para bhakti or true devotion comes at the end of the stick of knowledge. That is what Gita indicates too in my mind.

Though devotion is a great tool available for humans in the path of self-knowledge, but devotion without quest for jnana can border on melodrama and have been overemphasized in the declining periods of dharma.

And finally the only practical way to surrender which is essentially God realization is surrendering at the feet of the Guru. I don't believe there is any other way in Sanatana Dharma. Whatever we practice before the preceptor arrives is just ground work and preparation.

yajvan
19 June 2007, 11:20 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,
I like your questions, and I notice that sometimes more can be learned from questions than from any other mode. At least it's so in my own case.

When you say that surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord, I think the converse may be also true that devotion can just as well bring surrender; in other words repeatedly performing acts of devotion to the Lord can bring one to the point of surrender. Would you agree? I realize the scope of your conversation with Kaos is on a deeper philosophical plane than these points, but its where I am. :)

Namaste mirabai, sm78 and satay (et.al),
First let me say mirabai, your observation is brilliant! And satay, your request for a 'practical approach' is the cornerstone of spiritual progress and our desire on this HDF to be simple, practical people. We should be relentless on this question when one posts - that is 'what does that mean? how does one apply this to my (Our) sadhana?' . Like that. And satay you accomplish this with your posts regularly, thank you.
Even Krsna teaches that in the final analysis, our spiritual development is a practical thing, it is 'skill in action' that one receives when we choose to develop our full potential, because we live in an a action ( karma-kriya) world. He says, Yoga is Skill in Action ( Bhagavad Gita 2.50)

We quote scriptures often which is a boon for all that read them, yet it's the insight that comes with this. Even if we are unsure of its total meaning, trying to offer a view, as we are now doing from many who post on HDF is the grooming of the unfoldment process, a study in learning, and no effort is ever lost.

Devotion and Surrender
So mirabai, this devotion and surrender is two sides of the same coin. This devotion , this bhakti, is to be one pointed, focused , must come from the true bhakta ( from bkaj ' to revere, worship, love').

If one is not established in his/her true SELF, then his/her devotion will be covered by foreign elements - things that are not universally Me - likes & dislikes, invalid emotions that come and go, inspired, then not inspired; the winds of time and graha's acting upon us that influence the kosha's (or those things that surround our true SELF). It's the sheaths ( the kosha's) that prevent the direct contact with the Lord. In other words one needs to be on the same wavelength as the Lord to surrender, to give devotion. Before this is admirable and we do the best we can, and this is ok, but lacking - let me explain.

So bare with me here on this next part... if one is not established in the SELF, this universal, cosmic (just meaning Brahman level, all pervading) level of being, then one's surrender or devotion may be something like this: I am doing this action for the sake of the Lord, but actually I am not doing it, as it is the 3 guna's; I have no desire for its fruits because I am non-attached, like the scriptures say I should be, and I do not care about its fruits. Here lord, here are my actions. This is the mood making I alluded to , pretending, yet well intended and with absence of malice.

When one is naishkararmyam, freedom from binding influence of action, one lives in the SELF. Actions are done by the right owners, the gunas. I am capable of offering something that is pure to the Lord, the SELF. This is SELF Surrender, that blossoms to devotional states in God Consciousness.

Why is it God Consciousness? because one has a relationship with Him/Her..it's not pretending. One see's, smells, touches Her creation. One is established in Brahman, Bhuma ( this fullness) what incentive does desires have ( sankalpha) for the native? All desires are here to fill some lack. In Brahamn, there is no lack, no want, and hence, devotion in its true sense, can be offered (surrendered) because it is done without ulterior motive. It is done from a level of fullness and joy - thus this level of SELF, this is the passport.

Getting there
Now, satay must ask, how does one get there?

There are 3 levels of silence that brings one to this fullness of Being.
Krsna says in Chapt 5 of the Gita, calmness is said to be the means. This is a most excellent guide. Restful alertness as my teacher calls it... this is the experience of pure consciousness, groomed and cultivated by transcending in meditation, regularly.

- Transcendental consciousness ( some may say turiya, without distinction or distraction; this puts you in contact with the 4th, turiya); This is the foundation, the starting point to groom this silence, this calmness Kesava suggests. We experience it or may know it as samadhi.
- Cosmic consciousness - this is transcendental consciousness established and one lives the SELF 7x24x365 - all the time, it does not come and go. That is SELF awareness co-exists with activity.
Some call this turiyatit chetana. One experiences the distinction of activity ( on the outside) and the silence of the SELF as the subjective experience on the inside.
- God Consciousness or bhagavat chetana. One experiences the world as His/Her creation on the level of the senses, but within freedom. No attachments, binding influence, no karma that binds, as we are outside the 3 gunas.

Some Concluding remarks
My dear friends, these levels of ones development is not only for the muni residing in a cave, it is not just for the sanyasi. His grace shines on everyone the same, Brahman is not pigeon-holed in India. It is there, behind, through and permeating every level of creation - within us and without us. It is our choice to begin to unfold this. This is why we speak of this on HDF, what one puts their attention on grows stronger in their life, yes? The saints say, what one adores, one becomes. I cannot adore Brahman/Fullness of Being, until I understand it more, personally experience it... so Knowledge ( the Upanishads) + Experience (meditation, sadhana, etc) is the formula that is practical. One can be a householder and do this, or one can choose to be the sanyas. Both can achieve this , albeit different routines apply to both.

Om Hareer vida-dhyaan mama sarva rakshaam
May the Lord Sri Hari protect you on all sides - Narayana Kavacham, Srimad Bhagavatam Mahapurna

Kaos
19 June 2007, 04:34 PM
Yes, all good observations and comments. Let me just add that talking a whole lot about surrender and reading a lot of holy books is not surrender.


As they say, "A donkey with a load of holy books is still a donkey". :)

yajvan
19 June 2007, 05:04 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Yes, all good observations and comments. Let me just add that talking a whole lot about surrender and reading a lot of holy books is not surrender. . :)

Namaste Kaos,
of what you write there is no doubt. As of late, you have most keenly informed us about surrender as a good thing, and talked of donkeys and the weight of the books therein... You have given us wonderful quotes of the Lord, yet we still await your views. Perhaps [ just maybe a maybe] one of the books on the donkey will be of assistance for you... one must start from where one is.

Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger , from 4 posts ago. We still await patiently for your wisdom, insights, opinions or ideas on this matter. A view and idea, a practical approach, a clue, something other then painted cakes.

Until then, thank you, and we wait... talk to us on HOW to reach the SELF other then it is GOOD to do this.

Kaos
19 June 2007, 05:21 PM
Until then, thank you, and we wait... talk to us on HOW to reach the SELF other then it is GOOD to do this.




Namaste yajvan (and all),

My friend, if talking was all there is to surrender then perhaps all the chirping birds and parrots would have surrendered? :)


As for practical applications regarding the topic of surrender, for example, when one faces a dilemna or a crisis, when one asks the Lord for guidance, takes shelter in the Lord. Realizing that the Lord is the Supreme Controller and acknowledging that we are just parts, prakrti, controlled. What do you think happens?

yajvan
19 June 2007, 05:58 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste yajvan (and all),

My friend, if talking was all there is to surrender then perhaps all the chirping birds and parrots would have surrendered? :)


As for practical applications regarding the topic of surrender, for example, when one faces a dilemna or a crisis, when one asks the Lord for guidance, takes shelter in the Lord. Realizing that the Lord is the Supreme Controller and acknowledging that we are just parts, prakrti, controlled. What do you think happens?

Hello Kaos,

Again you bring the wisdom of the sages to our door steps, yet with out the cook book to eat the words...

Inform us on how to take shelter in the Lord - fine words, give me an action to to this. That is 'yajvan do the following: A, B, C, and you will be on the course of finding His shelter' .

My dear sadhu, you mention "if talking was all there is to surrender then perhaps all the chirping birds and parrots would have surrendered"

This is the issue at hand - so far we await an instruction from you that is more then a paraphrase, chirping, like the one given above.

We know that the Lord is the Supreme, we can read this in the agamas, Upanishads, the Puranas; This concept, this truth is NOT hidden to us; You are not bringing us any revelation with these words that our Upanishads and Veda do not offer our own eyes. So , let me ask what is the value of your posts then? Where is the contribition , other then folly?

We look to you, as a contributor of HDF, for ideas on how to LIVE this wisdom, not just quote, a chirp.

Until then... I have said my POV and that will be it, otherwise you are playing 'Bring me a rock' and I choose not to participate.

regards,

Kaos
19 June 2007, 07:14 PM
Until then... I have said my POV and that will be it, otherwise you are playing 'Bring me a rock' and I choose not to participate.

regards,


Namaste yajvan,

Perhaps, your approach to surrender is no longer optimal...

farewell then.
kaos

yajvan
19 June 2007, 08:54 PM
farewell then. kaos

Namaste Kaos,
I leave you on this matterwith something you may wish to ponder:

Is it better to keep one's mouth shut and be considered a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt? Abraham Lincoln

Perhaps in a future post, on a different subject the brilliance of Kaos will shine though.... until that time.

Znanna
19 June 2007, 09:05 PM
Um, when Kali kicks your ass all over town, you'll surrender.


ZN
/just saying

yajvan
19 June 2007, 09:14 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Um, when Kali kicks your ass all over town, you'll surrender. ZN /just saying

Perfect ZN, I can see the 'motivation'...

willie
19 June 2007, 10:14 PM
For those who read this line , we could see it comming , knew it was comming and in the end it finally got here. The whole thread surrendered to silence and disolved into nothingness.

So neither these minds could come up with any thing to show the way and the rest of us are left to chirp on our own. But it might not be to bad, the bird have long since surrendered to the lord , depending on it for good weather, mates and wild food or on the kindness of strangers for a handout, in times of need.

atanu
20 June 2007, 10:20 AM
----
And finally the only practical way to surrender which is essentially God realization is surrendering at the feet of the Guru. ---

Namaste All,

Yes, this is the most practical thing to do. True Guru, who is said to appear at appropriate time is also said to be none other than God.

Om

atanu
20 June 2007, 10:28 AM
Um, when Kali kicks your ass all over town, you'll surrender.


ZN
/just saying

Hehe.

I often get the kick on the groin.

Om

yajvan
20 June 2007, 12:29 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste All,

Yes, this is the most practical thing to do. True Guru, who is said to appear at appropriate time is also said to be none other than God.
Om

Namaste Atanu,
Yes very wise words... the guru appears at the right time. He is none other then HIM as the best guru is one established in Brahman.

As to willie's observation - the instructions were given, and will be given again in a very simple verse - now will you be able to comprehend it?
Withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal - this is the secret to surrender. One must be awake to this....

For some they scratch their heads, for others they know they are touching turiya and on their way.

Knowledge is different for different people, yes? For some A 10 kilo rock is a loathsome object, to be pushed to the side of the road; for others of vision, they see the value - 10 carat diamond that lives inside.

Like that - it is our level of cidakasha (consciousness-space) that one operates from that makes a difference - and by His blessing can be developed.

When the guru comes, does one see a 'customer' ? or the jivanmukti walking in the door?

Thank you again Atanu for your post.

pranams

saidevo
20 June 2007, 09:54 PM
Here is a story that illustrates an approach to surrender:

The Road of Life: Relating to God

At first, I saw God as my observer, my judge, keeping track of the things I did wrong, so as to know whether I merited heaven or hell when I die. He was out there sort of like a president.. I recognized His picture when I saw it, but I really didn't know Him.

But later on when I met Christ, it seemed as though life were rather like a bike ride, but it was a tandem bike, and I noticed that Christ was in the back helping me pedal.

I don't know just when it was that He suggested we change places, but life has not been the same since. When I had control, I knew the way. It was rather boring, but predictable it was the shortest distance between two points. But when He took the lead, He knew delightful long cuts, up mountains, and through rocky places at breakneck speeds. It was all I could do to hang on! Even though it looked like madness, He said, "Pedal!"

I was worried and was anxious and asked, "Where are you taking me?"

He laughed and didn't answer, and I started to learn to trust. I forgot my boring life and entered into the adventure, and when I'd say, "I'm scared," He'd lean back and touch my hand. I gained love, peace, acceptance and joy; gifts to take on my journey, My Lord's and mine...

And we were off again. He said, "Give the gifts away. They're extra baggage, too much weight." So I did, to the people we met, and I found that in giving I received, and still our burden was light.

I did not trust Him, at first, in control of my life. I thought He'd wreck it; but He knows bike secrets, knows how to make it bend to take sharp corners, knows how to jump to clear high rocks, knows how to fly to shorten, scary passages.

And I am learning to shut up and pedal in the strangest places, and I'm beginning to enjoy the view and the cool breeze on my face with my delightful constant companion, Jesus Christ. And when I'm sure! I just can't do it anymore, He just smiles and says... "Pedal."

Source: http://www.uwm.edu/~ceil/funstuff/touching.html

yajvan
21 June 2007, 08:12 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Here is a story that illustrates an approach to surrender:

And we were off again. He said, "Give the gifts away. They're extra baggage, too much weight." So I did, to the people we met, and I found that in giving I received, and still our burden was light.



Namaste Saidevo,
a wonderful story. I was in hopes that some one would take a stab at this... you have rewarded us.

I was also in hopes that some one [too] would look to the Bhagavad Gita, Chapt 9, sutra 27. Krsna says, ' Oh son of Kunti all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all tapas (austerities) that you may perform, do this as an offering to Me.'

This wisdom parallels your story nicely. One can begin this simple 'surrender' with just offering ones daily tasks to Him without becoming overindulgent in this. It's being mindful of Him. As simple people this begins to groom ones thoughts of HIM. Yet we are need of turiya to be part of our daily life and know that our gift's, our actions have been received. How so? that when we give something to Him, there is an acknowledgement of receipt. That we do not end up talking to ourselves in our minds today with no response. The response is possible from Him when we are absorbed in the SELF.

Just as your example points out , 'I am learning to shut up and peddle' this is what happens when ones consciousness is developed in
this transcendental consciousness and one lives the SELF, this turiyatit chetana & bhagavat chetana. One experiences the world as His/Her creation on the level of the senses, but within freedom. No attachments, binding influence, no karma that binds, as we are outside the 3 gunas.

The point is, evening the 'peddling' is done by nature, as we stay absorbed in the SELF. Nature does the actions for us. This grand Intelligence is now driving. This is why it is so practical for us, for society to consider. With this Intelligence at the wheel, all things are taken care of. The rains come on time, the growing seasons are in sync, we as a people begin to live in concert with each other and our surroundings. Very practical; this was once done and was called Sat Yuga. We can do this again.


This level of consciousness is possible for all that wish to puruse it, it's not pretending. How? withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal, the simple formula.

Thank you again for this insightful post ... I am in hopes it will bring more inquiry to this, in a sattvic, HDF manner.

pranams,

Kaos
21 June 2007, 10:45 AM
Namaste yajvan,

You ask for a how to surrender.

Try this:
Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare,
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Kaos

Kaos
21 June 2007, 11:21 AM
There is only one way to surrender, and that is, bhakti.

The Lord is the Supreme Controller, the owner of everything, and certainly neither yajvan nor anyone for that matter is the sole judge and adjudicator on the right approach and who is qualified to surrender.


O son of Prtha, anyone who takes shelter in Me-- even a woman, a merchant or one who is born in a low family-- can approach the supreme destination.
- (BG 9-32)

atanu
21 June 2007, 02:37 PM
Here is a story that illustrates an approach to surrender:

The Road of Life: Relating to God

---- It was rather boring, but predictable it was the shortest distance between two points. But when He took the lead, He knew delightful long cuts, up mountains, and through rocky places at breakneck speeds. It was all I could do to hang on! Even though it looked like madness, He said, "Pedal!"

-------
And we were off again. He said, "Give the gifts away. They're extra baggage, too much weight." So I did, to the people we met, and I found that in giving I received, and still our burden was light.

----

Namaskar Saidevoji,

A nice story indeed -- felt like a cool breeze. It seems true that God takes bhaktas through a roller coaster drive, which can be immensely enjoyable if ego grip is loosened or immensely frightening otherwise.

Regarding giving, I have an incidence to relate. For five years prior to 2002, I was in a team that prepared geological data compilation CDs on different petroliferous basins. One such CD related to Cauvery Basin of Tamil Nadu. This CD was required during a recent project completion. I could not find it. In all my backup disks everything else was there except the Cauvery Basin. Meanwhile, I happened to meet a friend, who while discussing other things thanked me profusely for a CD report that I had allegedly given to him, even before the report was completed. I asked him whether he still had the Cauvery CD or not?

And I got back my work.

I later told a few friends of mine "It seems that what one gives away returns and stays. What one hoards surely is lost."

Om Namah Shivaya

saidevo
21 June 2007, 09:32 PM
Namaste Atanuji.



I later told a few friends of mine "It seems that what one gives away returns and stays. What one hoards surely is lost."


Your CD incident reads nicely. Yes, giving is receiving, without the burden of having it.



It seems true that God takes bhaktas through a roller coaster drive, which can be immensely enjoyable if ego grip is loosened or immensely frightening otherwise.


The journey of the soul through its life to Godhood is delightfully comparable to many types of journey. For some it is as short as a flight through the air, while for many it is a journey on foot. For Ramana Maharshi, it was a journey in a rocket: he reached his destination very quickly and then settled like the great Arunachala in its laps.

In his book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (a book I read avidly in 1991 while I was placed in Delhi), Robert M. Pirsig compares the journey through life to a journey on motorcycle. He says travelling in a car would 'frame' the world within the car windows whereas by travelling in a motorcycle one can experience and enjoy the whole nature from the sky to the ground. This book in pdf form can be downloaded at http://www.design.caltech.edu/erik/Misc/pirsig.pdf

Incidentally, Adi Sankara has this approach to surrender: an Advaitin's total surrender.

"Let my every word be a prayer to Thee,
Every movement of my hands a ritual gesture to Thee,
Every step I take a circumambulation of Thy image,
Every morsel I eat a rite of sacrifice to Thee,
Every time I lay down a prostration at Thy feet;
Every act of personal pleasure and all else that I do,
Let it all be a form of worshiping Thee."

mirabai
21 June 2007, 11:12 PM
Devotion and Surrender
So mirabai, this devotion and surrender is two sides of the same coin. This devotion , this bhakti, is to be one pointed, focused , must come from the true bhakta ( from bkaj ' to revere, worship, love').

If one is not established in his/her true SELF, then his/her devotion will be covered by foreign elements - things that are not universally Me - likes & dislikes, invalid emotions that come and go, inspired, then not inspired; the winds of time and graha's acting upon us that influence the kosha's (or those things that surround our true SELF). It's the sheaths ( the kosha's) that prevent the direct contact with the Lord. In other words one needs to be on the same wavelength as the Lord to surrender, to give devotion. Before this is admirable and we do the best we can, and this is ok, but lacking - let me explain.

So bare with me here on this next part... if one is not established in the SELF, this universal, cosmic (just meaning Brahman level, all pervading) level of being, then one's surrender or devotion may be something like this: I am doing this action for the sake of the Lord, but actually I am not doing it, as it is the 3 guna's; I have no desire for its fruits because I am non-attached, like the scriptures say I should be, and I do not care about its fruits. Here lord, here are my actions. This is the mood making I alluded to , pretending, yet well intended and with absence of malice.

When one is naishkararmyam, freedom from binding influence of action, one lives in the SELF. Actions are done by the right owners, the gunas. I am capable of offering something that is pure to the Lord, the SELF. This is SELF Surrender, that blossoms to devotional states in God Consciousness.

Why is it God Consciousness? because one has a relationship with Him/Her..it's not pretending. One see's, smells, touches Her creation. One is established in Brahman, Bhuma ( this fullness) what incentive does desires have ( sankalpha) for the native? All desires are here to fill some lack. In Brahamn, there is no lack, no want, and hence, devotion in its true sense, can be offered (surrendered) because it is done without ulterior motive. It is done from a level of fullness and joy - thus this level of SELF, this is the passport.
This is really quite beautiful to contemplate. I see what you mean by devotion must be focused and one-pointed and must come from true bhakta, and that devotion is lacking which is given without complete surrender.
If there is not complete surrender, the fact is that there is still bondage to the gunas. When we are bound to the physical senses, our acts of devotion are not one-pointed/focused because they cannot be. They are blown and tossed about by the wind of emotion and selfish interest, no matter how noble or knowledgeable we (I) imagine ourselves to be, or how closely we attune our thoughts and actions with the scriptures.
As you beautifully wrote, it must be more than ‘pretending but well intended with absence of malice.’ Thanks for explaining this.

Today part of my reading brought this from the Katha Upanishad:

“He is to be realised first as Existence limited by upadhis and then in
His true transcendental nature. Of these two aspects, Atman realised as
Existence leads the knower to the realisation of His true nature.

When all the desires that dwell in the heart fall away, then the mortal
becomes immortal and here attains Brahman.

When all the ties of the heart are severed here on earth, then the mortal
becomes immortal. This much alone is the teaching.”

Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part Two, Chapter III, 13-15
http://lists.jnanadana.com/mailman/listinfo/vedas
…and then this :
20. 'The Self, smaller than small, greater than great, is hidden in the heart of that creature. A man who is free from desires and free from grief, sees the majesty of the Self by the grace of the Creator .'
21. 'Though sitting still, he walks far; though lying down, he goes everywhere. Who, save myself, is able to know that God who rejoices and rejoices not?'
22. 'The wise who knows the Self as bodiless within the bodies, as unchanging among changing things, as great and omnipresent, does never grieve.'
23. 'That Self, cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. The Self chooses him (his body) as his own.'
24. 'But he who has not first turned away from his wickedness, who is not tranquil, and subdued, or whose mind is not at rest, he can never obtain the Self (even) by knowledge.'
http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/katha/katha_2.htm

So perhaps realization comes in a sequence of two phases; first as existence which is limited by physicalities, which then leads to realization of His true transcendental nature.

It seems as though He comes to meet us where we live then guides us onward. It is not possible for unrealized me to comprehend transcendental nature. I can only conceive of mortal material nature so my beloved – the self of my Self - appears to me in my heart in that form which I can conceive. As knowledge opens up to me I am filled with love and desire to conform to His likeness and longing to feel close to Him and serve because I think it is the way to true happiness. I am not yet free from the binding influence of action and desire.
As I conform more and more to my perception of His likeness, my perception changes until my desires for material happiness fall away and gradually His true self is revealed to me. He was actually unchanged all along, but appeared as changing in my changing perception of Him.

Or so I think.

yajvan
22 June 2007, 05:31 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


So perhaps realization comes in a sequence of two phases; first as existence which is limited by physicalities, which then leads to realization of His true transcendental nature.

As knowledge opens up to me I am filled with love and desire to conform to His likeness and longing to feel close to Him and serve because I think it is the way to true happiness. I am not yet free from the binding influence of action and desire.
As I conform more and more to my perception of His likeness, my perception changes until my desires for material happiness fall away and gradually His true self is revealed to me. He was actually unchanged all along, but appeared as changing in my changing perception of Him.
.

Namaste mirabai,
Well said, and with the help of Kathopanishad. This is the wisdom of the Veda's to help us get a glimpse, the concept of Him/Her, from those that live this level of consciousness. This is such a boon from the tradition of Masters to help us who are not in Brahman, to paint the picture for us.
For me, it has advanced my sadhana 10X and I am grateful, Jai Guru Deva.

And thank you for your wonderful post... I am in hopes your readings take you to other Upanishads.

pranams,

Kaos
23 June 2007, 11:39 PM
Yajvan and all,

Allow me to point out that we cannot progress in the path of bhakti if we are filled with pride.

Lord Caitanya says we must be humble than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and ready to offer great respect to others without expecting any in return... Thinking ourselves lower than the straw in the street.

He also instructs us not to be rigid and that Love should reign supreme, not fear.

Namaste,
Kaos

atanu
27 June 2007, 11:21 AM
Yajvan and all,

Allow me to point out that we cannot progress in the path of bhakti if we are filled with pride.

Lord Caitanya says we must be humble than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and ready to offer great respect to others without expecting any in return... Thinking ourselves lower than the straw in the street.

He also instructs us not to be rigid and that Love should reign supreme, not fear.

Namaste,
Kaos


Namaste Kaos,

Yes Kaos. You must have read the story of Da Da Da. Advices are appropriate to the requirement of the receiver.


Om

Kaos
28 June 2007, 02:57 PM
Advices are appropriate to the requirement of the receiver.





Advices are also appropriate to the requirement of the one providing advices. Therefore, if one's practice is based on pride, arrogance and ignorance, "advices" offered by such, is inappropriate.

Although, it's fun to read "advices" by some of our self-proclaimed, holier-than-thou, know-it-all's, here in this board.

satay
28 June 2007, 03:17 PM
Admin Note
namaste kaos,





Although, it's fun to read "advices" by some of our self-proclaimed, holier-than-thou, know-it-all's, here in this board.

I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify your statement by providing evidence. Otherwise I will be forced to edit/delete your post for breaking forum rules: No Flaming, No trolling.

Thanks,

atanu
17 July 2007, 07:49 AM
Admin Note
namaste kaos,

I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify your statement by providing evidence. Otherwise I will be forced to edit/delete your post for breaking forum rules: No Flaming, No trolling.

Thanks,




Yajvan and all,

Allow me to point out that we cannot progress in the path of bhakti if we are filled with pride.

Lord Caitanya says we must be humble than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and ready to offer great respect to others without expecting any in return... Thinking ourselves lower than the straw in the street.

He also instructs us not to be rigid and that Love should reign supreme, not fear.

Namaste,
Kaos




Advices are also appropriate to the requirement of the one providing advices. Therefore, if one's practice is based on pride, arrogance and ignorance, "advices" offered by such, is inappropriate.

Although, it's fun to read "advices" by some of our self-proclaimed, holier-than-thou, know-it-all's, here in this board.



Namste Satay,

The advice and its applicability.

Om

yajvan
17 July 2007, 10:45 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Nasmate,

I have not really followed this total line of thinking as of late. I have found some posts antagonizing and looking for conflict to engage in, hence I post and read in other sections. Yet there is a pattern here, as this behavior manifests itself on other posts too. I do not get it. [This has nothing to do with the last post Atanu, please do not view it as such.]

The intent of the initial string was an uplifting approach and discussion on surrender and peoples POV's on this... then it took a turn that I do not understand, that of implications of negativity. The intent was that of community discussion on a fine subject.

I do not comprehend this behaviour where people offer ideas to stimulate thought, yet a small view choose to find holes with the suject or author. This behavior, I am not accustomed to from a site on Sanatana Dharm. What am i missing ? Is this the behavior we wish to groom on HDF? If I were on a political site, with banter of world issues, and politicians, I can see the intent.

pranams,

satay
17 July 2007, 11:29 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Nasmate,

I have not really followed this total line of thinking as of late. I have found some posts antagonizing and looking for conflict to engage in, hence I post and read in other sections. Yet there is a pattern here, as this behavior manifests itself on other posts too. I do not get it. [This has nothing to do with the last post Atanu, please do not view it as such.]


Namaste,

This behaviour was due to some misunderstanding. I requested other members involved in this to reconsider and my request has been kindly accepted.






I do not comprehend this behaviour where people offer ideas to stimulate thought, yet a small view choose to find holes with the suject or author. This behavior, I am not accustomed to from a site on Sanatana Dharm. What am i missing ? Is this the behavior we wish to groom on HDF? If I were on a political site, with banter of world issues, and politicians, I can see the intent.

pranams,

We do have a 'politics' section on HDF where we can banter on world issues that affect Dharma.

atanu
17 July 2007, 12:27 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Nasmate,

----[This has nothing to do with the last post Atanu, please do not view it as such.]-------
pranams,

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Yes, this has nothing to do with atanu.

I have also noted what you have written in your above post. I am just a bit more direct to point out the gap between an advice and its application.

Though, no hard feelings for anyone. We're all brothers and brothers do fight and hold hands.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
17 July 2007, 02:36 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Thank you both Atanu and satay,

I am sure I have lost something along the way on this whole string and is not worth the pursuit at this point to outline the subtleties I see, further discussion on my part only convolutes the conversation.

Atanu, your directness is refreshing and without malice, this has never been an issue. Satay your intent has always been forth-right. Thank you both for your note.