Holymen

[willie]

All religions have their psalm singers who only show up to see and be see. Then there are the crooked ministers, priests or holymen all looking out for them selves and no one else .

Mainly this is becasue religions are man made and therefore have to inherent problem of giving some people power over othes and that is the down fall.

In my exlporation of why there are so many religions I can across a slight pattern. Mostly religions or churches grow to a point where 2 view of what god is about or like develope. Then a series of religious discussions erupt and the church splits or worse. Religious discussions are a dangerous thing because neither of the protaganists ever admit they are wrong. I all seems to revolve around proving the other person is worng or a fool. The congregation soon either tires or chooses up sides and the whole church divides into two organization .

I have seen discussion of jesus degrade into yelling matches and then to scuffles in the parking lot. People willing to beat the rump of anyone who did not see things their way.

Hinduism has this in abundance. Look at the vedas , a work where little survives and still look at different ideas that have been fronted about it. Some of which are little more than creative writting exercises or the self agrandisement of some minor selfmade holyman. Or to paraphrase Clint Eastwood in dirty harry " a legend in his own mind".

All religions suffer from this and no matter how hard you fight it, it just comes back. I know I have witnessed it a lot and been in some of the socalled discussions and a few of the other type as well. Religion is more of a problem than a solution. Yoga should be the crown jewel of religion and should people find god in their own way but conmen are taking it over.

[atanu]

All religions have their psalm singers who only show up to see and be see. Then there are the crooked ministers, priests or holymen all looking out for them selves and no one else .

Mainly this is becasue religions are man made and therefore have to inherent problem of giving some people power over othes and that is the down fall.

In my exlporation of why there are so many religions I can across a slight pattern. Mostly religions or churches grow to a point where 2 view of what god is about or like develope. Then a series of religious discussions erupt and the church splits or worse. Religious discussions are a dangerous thing because neither of the protaganists ever admit they are wrong. I all seems to revolve around proving the other person is worng or a fool. The congregation soon either tires or chooses up sides and the whole church divides into two organization .

I have seen discussion of jesus degrade into yelling matches and then to scuffles in the parking lot. People willing to beat the rump of anyone who did not see things their way.

Hinduism has this in abundance. Look at the vedas , a work where little survives and still look at different ideas that have been fronted about it. Some of which are little more than creative writting exercises or the self agrandisement of some minor selfmade holyman. Or to paraphrase Clint Eastwood in dirty harry " a legend in his own mind".

All religions suffer from this and no matter how hard you fight it, it just comes back. I know I have witnessed it a lot and been in some of the socalled discussions and a few of the other type as well. Religion is more of a problem than a solution. Yoga should be the crown jewel of religion and should people find god in their own way but conmen are taking it over.


Willie, what you write is to some extent correct yet are you not stating mere cliches? Conmen will always be there, how does it matter to you? You state "--should people find god in their own way----in yoga", true.

Very true. In Yoga, there is no other and therefore no conmen.


Om Om Om

[satay]

namaste willie,


All religions have their psalm singers who only show up to see and be see. Then there are the crooked ministers, priests or holymen all looking out for them selves and no one else .


Your post has truth to it. May I ask what your experience has been with 'holymen'? You seem to be painting all sages with the same brush.




Mainly this is becasue religions are man made and therefore have to inherent problem of giving some people power over othes and that is the down fall.


Is GOD man made too?




Hinduism has this in abundance. Look at the vedas , a work where little survives and still look at different ideas that have been fronted about it. Some of which are little more than creative writting exercises or the self agrandisement of some minor selfmade holyman. Or to paraphrase Clint Eastwood in dirty harry " a legend in his own mind".



hmm...You mean vedas are 'creative writing'? Maybe you have been in the 'church' too long? I couldn't say this for sure but seems that you are just blabbing off something of which you know nothing about.




All religions suffer from this and no matter how hard you fight it, it just comes back. I know I have witnessed it a lot and been in some of the socalled discussions and a few of the other type as well. Religion is more of a problem than a solution. Yoga should be the crown jewel of religion and should people find god in their own way but conmen are taking it over.

Some people consider and religions consider 'yoga' i.e. union with GOD 'cultic' or satanic activity.

What conmen are you talking about?

By the way, you ought to read OSHO if you don't already.

[willie]

Let's take a look at these socalled holymen. First I would say to listen to what they have to say and you will hear sweet words at the beginning . Soon enough these words will be harder to bear and more and more to followers are placed in a restrictive mode. Cutting back on socalled bad activities and so moving along to some path to some realization of a devine nature.

But before swallowing this line , watch these holymen closely and you will find them straying from their rules. And if cornered they will mumble something like once you are a certain point then you go past rules. What a line. I think that if the leaders cannot follow their rules they should be thrown out and in a lot of cases this is what happens and these liars have to find new suckers to take advantage of.

Then there is the money thing. Ever wonder how religions that talk about an austere life seem to have plenty of money all the time. Ever wonder where all the donated money goes. Might be time to find out and to find out if is all shows up on the books.

I went into a few mega churchs and looked at their operations. There were a lot of entertainment programs for services, community get togethers , and services like daycare and social programs for the local membership , about 1200 people. I wondered where the money came from to fund that level of service. A building to house that many people for the services costs a lot and the heating and airconditioning is not cheap. Of course there was the usual hat passing at every service but I was thinking that it was still costing a lot to keep the operation going. But is some of these large churches the cliental is billed each month, miss a few payments and you are not too welcome anymore. ..

So just like thet terminator I will be back.

[satay]

This thread is to discuss Willie's experiences of holymen, religions and churches.

[Znanna]

This thread is to discuss Willie's experiences of holymen, religions and churches.

OK, that's cool.

Hi, Willie :)

Generally speaking, I'm with you in that to me, "religion" is entirely personal .. the association of the individual with the um, non-individual, and this is not something which can be preached or conveyed, but only done in practice.

Some of the most ill-balanced folks, I think, are in the public eye and in many cases in roles of preacherness ... they seek to become idols of a sort on their own account. I think that's sort of twisted - while there is energy in the interplay between imagined and imaginer, to forget Who's imagination it is .. well, that would be the temptation, the notion of separateness, of "original sin".

YMMV



ZN

[yajvan]

Let's take a look at these socalled holymen. First I would say to listen to what they have to say and you will hear sweet words at the beginning . Soon enough these words will be harder to bear and more and more to followers are placed in a restrictive mode. Cutting back on socalled bad activities and so moving along to some path to some realization of a devine nature.

Hello Willie,
I think Satay asks a reasonable question that needs to be considered, and I have a few of my own if you care to entertain them:

What is your experience with holymen or women? as you say "Let's take a look at these socalled holymen" - ok, then who are they so we have common ground for discussions.
Have you had the opportunity to read any of the Upanishads, Brahmana's or Aranyaka's since the last go 'round of the Veda's being incomplete? You mention " Look at the vedas , a work where little survives and still look at different ideas that have been fronted about it." Different ideas are fine I would think, yet we're back to the discussion of the vedas that were outlined in posts to Willie Part 1,2,3 . We have addressed this to a high level of competence, yet you chose to go back to square one... but have not answered the question of any study on your behalf.

Your hypothesis of generality is fine, but if you cannot convert it to the specific where is there value? In general, we will all be dead, and all conversations, in general, are waisting the breath.
You mention mega churches - I see your point, but am remiss in connecting the dots. Can you advise on your point other then it cost money to heat and cool the building?thanks,

[willie]

All these holymen and women crawling over the face of the earth and still things go wrong, people turn their backs on churchs , temples and other holy building and go it alone. But perhaps we can, at least , put these holy people in to some general classifications.

Maybe a breaking point would be those who have recieved some formal training, be it either at a institution or from some individual, and those who just got the calling, so to speak , and went out and started preaching and looking for a following.

On the former I have seen my share, I guess, some were well meaning people and could hold a decent conversation and look at the flaws in most religions . Others had their pet religion and could show the flaws in all others.


I looked at some of the megachurchs and the people who ran then and preached at them . These people were all smooth talkers and good salesmen but after a while I began to wonder why they were the way they were.

Did they like the feeling of talking to about 1000 people at a time and have then hang on every word. Like a snake charmer charming a snake.?

Was it the money? These places were taking in a pretty good penny and the preachers were very well paid. The better you were able to draw an audience they more you made. Like most operation or entertainment , if you filled a lot of seats you got more of the take.

Was it fear of losing the big check? No one wants to lose a good paying job , especially one where you get paid to talk.

I found them all, and one I didn't think of. Some people seem to have the idea that the whole organization depended on them alone. If they could not draw in the crowds then all the people working for the megachurch would be unemployed.

What I did not find was any real indepth discussion of god or brahman. The sermons were pretty much feel good sermons and there was not mention of any consequences for wrong actions. But then again you had to fill seats not drive people out the door.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

All these holymen and women crawling over the face of the earth and still things go wrong, people turn their backs on churchs , temples and other holy building and go it alone. But perhaps we can, at least , put these holy people in to some general classifications.



Willie,
I am sure your intentions are good, but for me, the conversation is moot without the names you are considering... why so? A holy man for me, is one of Brahmavit, a jivanmukti... If you give names and they are more preachers, or pastors, or clerics, fine, but then we can gauge your metric of 'holy man' - till then your ideas are still dormant in generalities. An intelligent, thoughtful response by HDF members remains shelved until we figure out your definitions.

thanks,