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c.smith
03 July 2007, 10:04 PM
Hare Krishna,

I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

Comments and direction are appreciated.

yajvan
03 July 2007, 10:40 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste c.smith.
Nice to see you posting ... Everyone's path is different. What does the wise say???
If a worshipper of Devi does not see her in the images of Vishnu and Shankar etc. this would imply that he is doubting the omnipresence of his Adored One. Such a devotee who sees his Adored One partially remains imperfect.

Dear c.smith , if this is how you see Krsna, then you have found home...
Others see Siva, or Ram, or Devi in this manner.

Recall in the gita, Krsna is called out as Kesava... it means one with beautiful hair. Yet, with a closer inspection of the name it's composed of
Ka = Brahma + a = Visnu + isa =Siva. So we see Krsna as all 3 three.

If you choose to debate who is superior and inferior and all that, the march to Brahman is only academic. What does your heart say?

There is saguna Brahman or the expression of Brahman in this Manifest world, this can be Mother Divine, Devi, Ram, Krsna , no doubt, and Siva, and Ganesha, Hari.

Yet Niguna Brahman is homogeneous, the Fullness, Bhuma, aksara or a= not + ksi= to destroy or perish. The Immutable, the Absolute, the Imperishable.

I think you may know the answer? What one adores one becomes.

satay
04 July 2007, 10:41 AM
namaste,
Yajvan has already answered the post fully.

If I may add a comment about the word 'demi'. This word 'Demi' implies inferiority and is not suitable to be used in my opinion. The correct word is 'Deva' or 'Devta'.

Chapter 7 Verse 20

kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah
prapadyante 'nya-devatah
tam tam niyamam asthaya
prakrtya niyatah svaya

The word clearly is ''nya-devatah' the ' in front of n is for 'a' so the actual word is pronouned as 'anya devatah'.

There is no mention of the word 'demi'. Anya devatah does not imply inferiority, demi does and thus is distorting the meaning in my opinion.

Lord says, 'those who worship anaya devta' not 'those who worship demi gods' !! Also, remember that Lord says that He himself is Rudra (shiva)! so where is the question of 'demi'?

With respect to Shiva, he is not just a devta, He is MahaDeva! He is another aspect of the divine lord krishna. Please read chapter 10, verse 23.
Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (shiva) make the trimurti, the three aspects of the divine. There is no 'pecking order' so to speak. This is my personal opinion.

But I think Yajvan asks the best question. What does your heart say?

For example, to a person whose heart is seeing divine as 'jesus' nothing else matters and for a person whose heart is experiencing divine as 'krishna' nothing else matters, similarly, to a person whose heart is set on 'shiva'...

Arvind Sivaraman
05 July 2007, 03:11 AM
Hare Krishna,

I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

Comments and direction are appreciated.

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste C.Smith.
The essence of all scriptures is that one needs to be guided by a spiritually evolved soul.ie; a GURU (Preceptor or Teacher)who is a self realised soul.
If you are thirsty , you may ask for water(English), you may ask for Paani(Water in Hindi),you may ask for Theertham(Water in Tamil).You may drink this water calling it by any name.It is going to quench your thirst.
Similarly call GOD by any name, Sri Ram,Sri Krishna,Jesus,Allah HE is sure to rescue and guide you at the required time .
Technically speaking you may be right, because the age old scriptures mention the DASA AVATHAR(TEN Incarnations) of LORD HARI.
They are : 1)Matsya 2)Koorma 3)Varaha 4)Narasimha 5)Vaman 6)Parasurama 7)Sri Ram 8)Sri Krishna 9)Balarama 10)Kalki.
All these Avathar's are an Amsam or Spark of Lord Hari.
But in the spiritual path it is only DEVOTION AND IMPLICIT OBEDIENCE TO OUR GURU that matters. Rest all is secondary.

Agnideva
05 July 2007, 12:37 PM
Namaste C.Smith,

My position is somewhat similar to Satay’s. In Vaishnava mythology, Siva and all others take a subordinate position, and become devotees of Vishnu. In Saivite mythology, Vishnu/Krishna and all others take on a subordinate position and become devotees of Siva. Personally, I don’t think it is about true God, false God, semigod or demigod, but about the form of God that is our focus. Whichever is the image of our focus (Ishta Devata) becomes the highest and only form to us. Smartaism goes one step further and stresses that you must be able to see the same God in all forms.


I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.
Yes, you may think of it that way. There are thousands of denominations in Christianity. However, all of them come together to some degree with regards to God, Jesus and Bible. In Hinduism, there are also many denominations, but the form in which we see God is different. For some it is Vishnu or Krishna, others it is Siva, and for others it is Divine Mother. Where the Hindu denominations come together is not in the form of God that is their focus of worship, but on certain core beliefs and texts that they all believe in and hold sacred. Those who have had a Christian upbringing, many times may find Vaishnavism the easiest to follow because there is more similarity between Vaishnava and Christian teachings than with other schools IMHO.

OM Shanti,
A.

c.smith
05 July 2007, 08:38 PM
Thank-you all for your responses.

My heart says that there are several ways to whatever you call "God", and without getting into whom may be superior or not, they may all lead to the same place. That said, I'm being taught that Krishna is the original form and that Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna. Doesn't set well with the classical teachings of Hinduism that I first learned. Perhaps it all doesn't matter, again because there are several paths that lead to (generic) God.

Forgive me for my misgivings. Though I have settled on ISKCON as my path to enlightenment, I know that I still have very much to learn. Thank-you for giving me that opportunity and for being constructive with your comments and teachings. I appreciate you all.

Guru? Perhaps one day I will be fortunate enough to meet the one that Krishna has in mind for me.

Again, thank-you for your continued patience as I continue to learn and grow through your posts.

Most humbly,

Clayton

Yogkriya
11 July 2007, 09:49 AM
Dear C. Smith,
Here is an older post of mine (not from this forum though), where certain Iskcon devotees were putting down Lord Shiva as a mere "Demi-God". This is a false perspective. Although I agree with the perspective that to each his favorite form of God. This was in reply to a ritvik devotee who projected Lord Shiva as an "associate" of "external energy" of God and "remaining absorbed in material quality of darkness" and in maya, but Vishnu above maya. This was the bhava projected by the devotee. Sadly a lot of these people try to get away with this sort of pseudo explanation of Lord Shiva's position and glory. If you want to know the real position, then go to the highest authority. One who has direct perception of Mahadeva. I post this post for your benefit. Regards and love.

------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guruvani
TRANSLATION
"Lord Śiva is an associate of the external energy; therefore he is absorbed in the material quality of darkness. Lord Viṣṇu is transcendental to māyā and the qualities of māyā. Therefore He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

- This is totally opposite to Shiv Purana and any other great Vedic literature. Even if you fail to recognize the importance of Shiva Purana through various cunning demarcations of vedanta jugglery, Cc is still no match for Shiva Mahapurana, cuz its a Purana. Cc is no purana, no Veda. Besides, nowhere do the Vedas represent Lord Shiva to be representing darkness and so called some kinda "external energy". This is HK folklore period.

Now listen how Lord Krsna - the top most authority of HK philosophy speaks on seeing Lord Shiva to Yudhishthira. This is what Krsna himself says of Shiva and Shiva confirms that Krsna worshipped him in many lives. All this is told by Krsna to Yudhishthira. So before putting a false and laughable mistranslation like a "Demi-God" to Lord Shiva Maheswara, think about what Lord Krsna himself says about Shiva. He does not address him as a demiGod. If Prabhupada does, then its his prerogative, that we are not in any compulsion to agree with. You maybe! Cuz u feel bounded by his diksha.

"The blessed Vishnu continued thus speaking to Yudhishthira, 'I then said unto him, O regenerate one, through thy grace, O great ascetic. I shall behold the lord of the deities, that grinder of multitudes of Diti's sons. Eight days, O Bharata, passed there like an hour, all of us being thus occupied with talk on Mahadeva. On the eighth day, I (Krishna) underwent the Diksha (initiation) according to due rites, at the hands of that Brahmana and received the staff from his hands. I underwent the prescribed shave. I took up a quantity of Kusa blades in my hand. I wore rags for my vestments. I rubbed my person with ghee. I encircled a cord of Munja grass round my loins. For one month I lived on fruits. The second month I subsisted upon water. The third, the fourth and the fifth months I passed, living upon air alone. I stood all the while, supporting myself upon one foot and with my arms also raised upwards, and foregoing sleep all the while.

I then beheld, O Bharata, in the firmament an effulgence that seemed to be as dazzling as that of a thousand Suns combined together. Towards the centre of that effulgence, O son of Pandu, I saw a cloud looking like a mass of blue hills, adorned with rows of cranes, embellished with many a grand rainbow, with flashes of lightning and the thunder-fire looking like eyes set on it. 1 Within that cloud was the puissant Mahadeva. himself of dazzling splendour, accompanied by his spouse Uma.
Verily, the great Deity seemed to shine with his penances, energy, beauty, effulgence, and his dear spouse by his side. The puissant Maheswara, with his spouse by his side, shone in the midst of that cloud.
The appearance seemed to be like that of the Sun in the midst of racking clouds with the Moon by his side.
The hair on my body, O son of Kunti, stood on its end, and my eyes expanded with wonder upon beholding Hara, the refuge of all the deities and the dispeller of all their griefs.
Mahadeva was adorned with a diadem on his head. He was armed with his Sula. He was clad in a tiger-skin, had matted locks on his head, and bore the staff (of the Sanyasin) in one of his hands. He was armed, besides with his Pinaka and the thunderbolt. His teeth was sharp-pointed. He was decked with an excellent bracelet for the upper arm. His sacred thread was constituted by a snake. He wore an excellent garland of diversified colours on his bosom, that hung down to his toes. Verily, I beheld him like the exceedingly bright moon of an autumnal evening.

Surrounded by diverse clans of spirits and ghosts, he looked like the autumnal Sun difficult of being gazed at for its dazzling brightness.

Eleven hundred Rudras stood around that Deity of restrained soul and white deeds, then seated upon his bull. All of them were employed in hymning his praises. The Adityas, the Vasus, the Sadhyas, the Viswedevas, and the twin Aswins praised that Lord of the universe by uttering the hymns occurring in the scriptures.
The puissant Indra and his brother Upendra, the two sons of Aditi, and the Grandsire Brahma, all uttered, in the presence of Bhava, the Rathantara Saman.
Innumerable masters of Yoga, all the regenerate Rishis with their children, all the celestial Rishis, the goddess Earth, the Sky (between Earth and Heaven), the Constellations, the Planets, the Months, the Fortnights, the Seasons, Night, the Years, the Kshanas, the Muhurtas, the Nimeshas, the Yugas one after another, all the celestial Sciences and branches of knowledge, and all beings conversant with Truth, were seen bowing down unto that Supreme Preceptor, that great Father, that giver (or origin) of Yoga.
Sanatkumara, the Vedas, the Histories, Marichi, Angiras, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, the seven Manus, Soma, the Atharvans, and Vrihaspati, Bhrigu, Daksha, Kasyapa, Vasishtha, Kasya, the Schandas, Diksha, the Sacrifices, Dakshina, the Sacrificial Fires, the Havis (clarified butter) poured in sacrifices, and all the requisites of the sacrifices, were beheld by me, O Yudhishthira, standing there in their embodied forms.
All the guardians of the worlds, all the Rivers, all the snakes, the mountains, the celestial Mothers, all the spouses and daughters of the celestials, thousands upon thousands and millions of ascetics, were seen to bow down to that puissant Lord who is the soul of tranquillity. The Mountains, the Oceans, and the Points of the compass also did the same, the Gandharvas and the Apsaras highly skilled in music, in celestial strains, sang and hymned the praises of Bhava who is full of wonder. The Vidyadharas, the Danavas, the Guhyakas, the Rakshasas, and all created beings, mobile and immobile, adorned, in thought, word and deed, that puissant Lord. Before me, that Lord of all the gods viz., Sarva (Shiva), appeared seated in all his glory. Seeing that Isana had showed himself to me by being seated in glory before my eyes, the whole universe, with the Grandsire and Sakra, looked at me.
I, however, had not the power to look at Mahadeva.

The great Deity then addressed me saying, 'Behold, O Krishna, and speak to me.
Thou hast adorned me hundreds and thousands of times.
There is no one in the three worlds that is dearer to me than thou.' After I had bowed unto him, his spouse, viz., the goddess Uma, became gratified with me. I (Krsna) then addressed in these words the great God whose praises are hymned by all the deities with the Grandsire Brahma at their head.'

"The blessed Vishnu said, 'I saluted Mahadeva, saying,--Salutations to thee, O thou that art the eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that thou art Penance, thou art Sattwa, thou art Rajas, thou art Tamas, and thou art Truth. Thou art Brahman, thou art Rudra, thou art Varuna, thou art Agni, thou art Manu, thou art Bhava, thou art Dhatri, thou art Tashtri, thou art Vidhatri, thou art the puissant Master of all things, and thou art everywhere. All beings, mobile and immobile, have sprung from thee. This triple world with all its mobile and immobile entities, has been created by thee. The Rishis say that thou art superior to the senses, the mind, the vital breaths, the seven sacrificial fires, all others that have their refuge in the all-pervading Soul, and all the deities that are adored and worthy of adoration. Thou, O illustrious one, art the Vedas, the Sacrifices, Soma, Dakshina, Pavaka, Havi, and all other requisites of sacrifice. The merit obtained by sacrifices, gifts made to others, the study of the Vedas, vows, regulations in respect of restraint, Modesty, Fame, Prosperity, Splendour, Contentment, and Success, all exist for leading to thee. 1 Desire, Wrath, Fear, Cupidity, Pride, Stupefaction, and Malice, Pains and Diseases, are, O illustrious one, thy children. Thou art all acts that creatures do, thou art the joy and sorrow that flow from those acts, thou art the absence of joy and sorrow, thou art that Ignorance which is the indestructible seed of Desire, thou art the high origin of Mind, thou art Puissance, and thou art Eternity. 2 Thou art the Unmanifest, thou art Pavana, thou art inconceivable, thou art the thousand-rayed Sun, thou art the effulgent Chit, thou art the first of all the topics, and thou art the refuge of life. 3 The use of words like Mahat, Soul, Understanding, Brahman, Universe, Sambhu, and Self-born and other words occurring in succession (in the Vedas), show that thy nature has been judged (by persons conversant with the Vedas) as identical with Mahat and Soul. Verily, regarding thee as all this, the learned Brahmanas win over that ignorance which lies at the root of the world. Thou residest in the heart of all creatures, and thou art adored by the Rishis as Kshetrajna. Thy arms and feet extend to every place, and thy eyes, head, and face are everywhere. Thou hearest everywhere in the universe, and thou stayest, pervading all things. Of all acts that are performed in the Nimeshas and other divisions of time that spring in consequence of the puissance of the Sun, thou art the fruit. 1 Thou art the original effulgence (of the supreme Chit). Thou art Purusha, and thou residest in the hearts of all things. Thou art the various Yogic attributes of success, viz., Subtility and Grossness and Fruition and Supremacy and Effulgence and Immutability. 2 Understanding and intelligence and all the worlds rest upon thee. They that are devoted to meditation, that are always engaged in Yoga, that are devoted to or firm in Truth and that have subjugated their passions, seek thee and rest on thee. 3 They that know thee for one that is Immutable, or one that resides in all hearts, or one that is endued with supreme puissance, or one that is the ancient Purusha, or one that is pure Knowledge, or one that is the effulgent Chit, or one that is the highest refuge of all persons endued with intelligence, are certainly persons of great intelligence. Verily, such persons stay, transcending intelligence. 4 By understanding the seven subtile entities (viz., Mahat, Ego, and five subtile primal elements called Tanmatras), by comprehending thy six attributes (of Omniscience, Contentment of Fullness, Knowledge without beginning, Independence, Puissance that is not at fault at any time and that is infinite), and being conversant with Yoga that is freed from every false notion, the man of knowledge succeeds in entering into thy great self.--After I had said these words, O Partha, unto Bhava, that dispeller of grief and pain, the universe, both mobile and immobile, sent up a leonine shout (expressive of their approval of the correctness of my words). The innumerable Brahmanas there present, the deities and the Asuras, the Nagas, the Pisachas, the Pitris, the birds, diverse Rakshasas, diverse classes of ghosts and spirits, and all the great Rishis, then bowed down unto that great Deity. There then fell upon my head showers of celestial flowers possessed of great fragrance, and delicious winds blew on the spot. The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me,--We know, O Krishna, that thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for thy good. My love and affection for thee is very great. Do thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto thee, O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, thou shalt have them still.'"



- THIS WAS DESCRIBED BY LORD SHRI KRISHNA HIMSELF TO YUDHISHTHIRA OF HIS MEETING WITH SHRI SHIVA SHANKARA MAHADEVA. NOW ALL THE SHIVA BASHERS PROPAGATING SHIVA TO BE A MERE "DEMI-GOD" SEEK THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. THEY CAN'T PLEASE NOR SHIVA, NEITHER KRSNA, BUT INVITE ONLY THEIR OWN DOOM BY THIS MAHA APARADHA!
NAMA SHIVAYA!! NAMAH VASUDEVAYA!!
------------------------------------------------------------------

One may worship Shiva or Vishnu (Krsna, Rama) as God or Supreme God and attain the highest aim of spiritual life. There should be no doubt about it. Namah Shivaya!

atanu
12 July 2007, 11:44 AM
Thank-you all for your responses.

My heart says that there are several ways to whatever you call "God", and without getting into whom may be superior or not, they may all lead to the same place. That said, I'm being taught that Krishna is the original form and that Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna. Doesn't set well with the classical teachings of Hinduism that I first learned. Perhaps it all doesn't matter, again because there are several paths that lead to (generic) God.

Forgive me for my misgivings. Though I have settled on ISKCON as my path to enlightenment, I know that I still have very much to learn. Thank-you for giving me that opportunity and for being constructive with your comments and teachings. I appreciate you all.

Guru? Perhaps one day I will be fortunate enough to meet the one that Krishna has in mind for me.

Again, thank-you for your continued patience as I continue to learn and grow through your posts.

Most humbly,

Clayton

Dear Clayton,

You must be on a correct path, since even God is defined by His humbleness.

Lord Krishna says in Gita: Those know who know me as unborn Mahesvara.


Now I ask, those who equate Shri Krishna's form with another, do they know the unborn Krishna who is Mahesvara? Probably not as they know only the born (form) and they swear by the form alone?

If you contemplate on the above, you will realise that Mahesvara and Krishna are not different. And once you realise that you will do good service to ISKCONites.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
28 July 2007, 09:38 AM
Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.



The above Vaidic statement proves false all hoarse claims that Rudra-Shiva is a demi God.

Shiva represents the Self that everyone aspires to unite with and also Sarvesvara Lord whom all worship for fulfillment of the aspiration.




What is not Vedic is not true.

Om Namah Shivaya

Yaruki
28 July 2007, 03:36 PM
Hare Krishna,

I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

Comments and direction are appreciated.


I agree vaishnavas is the path I am walking on however I do not associate with ISKCON. I have a few issues with them as a group and im not really into those kind of groups.

Atman
28 July 2007, 08:17 PM
Yes- Krishna is supreme Ishvara- it is said that all other demigods worship him- and his realm Navidapa- which is said to be supreme effulgence- I will try and find the link and post it.

Atman
17 August 2007, 09:01 AM
namaste,
Yajvan has already answered the post fully.


With respect to Shiva, he is not just a devta, He is MahaDeva! He is another aspect of the divine lord krishna. Please read chapter 10, verse 23.
Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (shiva) make the trimurti, the three aspects of the divine. There is no 'pecking order' so to speak. This is my personal opinion.


I must disagree here. Shiva is seen as a Mahayogi and other such titles like Mahadeva- those who live in the highest Casual world, beings composed of quantum light particles.
However- Krsna states in the Bhagavad Gita that those who worship the demigods go to the region of the demigods- but those who worship me- come to me. It is therefore clear that Krsna is the supreme personality of Godhead- therefore is called 'supreme ishwara.' There is no reason therefore to take offense to the fact that Shiva and Brahma are also demigods in comparison.

yajvan
17 August 2007, 10:44 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I respect your views on this matter , yet my orientation is shaped differently.

If a worshipper of Devi does not see her in the images of Vishnu and Shankar etc. this would imply that he is doubting the omnipresence of his Adored One. Such a devotee who sees his Adored One partially remains imperfect. - Swami Brahmananda, Shankaracharaya of Jyotir Matt,

I mention this quote because it comes from one fully realized in Being, an exponent of Reality, totally conversant in the Veda. He is jnana cahsusah - one who has the eyes of knowledge. Why does he say this about the omnipresence of ones Adored One? Because he knows Brahman's Fullness of Being. When that Fullness (Bhuma) is found in Siva, Visnu, Devi, it is still fullness.
We cannot take Infinity (Krsna) and cut it into lesser parts... each one is full in itself. Each one offers the sadhu an orientation to know the Divine. This is His (Krsna's) Grace.

What is key is that one adores their view of the Lord as the All, Tad Ekam and that Bhuma is there. This is called out in Chapt 10 of the Gita as I see it. This is also called out in the Madhu vidya of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.


pranams,

satay
17 August 2007, 11:55 AM
namast Atman,



I must disagree here. Shiva is seen as a Mahayogi and other such titles like Mahadeva- those who live in the highest Casual world, beings composed of quantum light particles.
However- Krsna states in the Bhagavad Gita that those who worship the demigods go to the region of the demigods- but those who worship me- come to me. It is therefore clear that Krsna is the supreme personality of Godhead- therefore is called 'supreme ishwara.' There is no reason therefore to take offense to the fact that Shiva and Brahma are also demigods in comparison.

yes, this is the ISKCON view, however, it doesn't apply to me since I am not an ISKCONite though I am a vaishnava.

You are in the correct forum though on HDF to say this.

Atman
17 August 2007, 12:52 PM
Well as a Vaishnava- I'd have thought you'd put Krsna/Narayana as on a different plane from other devas/mahadevas.
From what I've read on Creation- Lord Brahma himself underwent a penance lasting 1000 divine years- to understand Krsna and his spiritual world. If the creator himself was confused- yet his comprehension is much greater than humans/celestials, this shows these great souls cannot be on the same plane of Krsna/Narayana- in fact, even Mahavisnu himself cannot describe Krsna or his supra glorious realm of Navidapa fully.

atanu
17 August 2007, 02:30 PM
----even Mahavisnu himself cannot describe Krsna or his supra glorious realm of Navidapa fully.


Where is Navidapa?

satay
17 August 2007, 02:40 PM
pranam prabhu,


Well as a Vaishnava- I'd have thought you'd put Krsna/Narayana as on a different plane from other devas/mahadevas.


No, I am a different sort of vaishnava. ;)



If the creator himself was confused- yet his comprehension is much greater than humans/celestials, this shows these great souls cannot be on the same plane of Krsna/Narayana- in fact, even Mahavisnu himself cannot describe Krsna or his supra glorious realm of Navidapa fully.

yes, this is ISKCON view, I don't subscribe to it.

Hari bol!

Atman
17 August 2007, 03:03 PM
Where is Navidapa?

It is also known as Maha vaikuntha- where Krsna perform his pastimes- many yojans above the material heavens and the sunyas (voids).

Atman
17 August 2007, 03:10 PM
www.philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/indica/authors/bhaktivinoda/ndm.htm

yajvan
17 August 2007, 03:53 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

It is also known as Maha vaikuntha- where Krsna perform his pastimes- many yojans above the material heavens and the sunyas (voids).


If my memory serves me correctly 1 yojana = 8.5 miles. Just a tid-bit of of unrelated but perhpas interesting data for the discerning reader.

Ganeshprasad
17 August 2007, 05:52 PM
Pranam all

Krishna tu Bhagvan swayam, to deny that would be like cutting the nose to spite the face, most hdf member here would agree, even if Krishna may not be their Ista Deva. Some see Bhagvan as Shiva, and yet another as Devi and some see as Brahman one without a second. All shadhak see god through their respective Shastra.

Demigods have no place in Vedic dharma, devas yes and they are all worthy of our worship.

Arjun having declared Krishna as parbraham parmatma in chapter 10 of the Gita still not satisfied asked o yogin, how may I know you in what various forms may I worship you? So I tend to accept above everyone else what Krishna says and he says without calling Shankra a demigod that I am Shankra amongst rudras.

We can further study Bhagvat, their also Lord Shiva is describe as supreme.

Lord Vishnu declares that they are not different. If you want I can sight you the verses.


Atri Rishi desiring a child equal to Brahman performed extreme tapsiya, as a result the lords appears before him, astounded by what he so saw

I called for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, desiring a son like Him, and I thought of Him only. But although He is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. Kindly let me know how you have come, for I am greatly bewildered about this.4.1.28

The three deities told Atri Rishi Dear brahmana you are perfect in your determination, and therefore as you have decided, so it will happen; it will not happen otherwise. We are all the same person upon whom you were meditating, and therefore we have all come to you.4.1.30.

I am glad to see most Hindus have no hierarchy problem we are glad to even accommodate gods of other religion since there can only be one god, but sad to see the Vedic gods seems to create problem in some section of the followers even though the lord is described as unlimited forms and names they like to ignore this.

Jai Shree Krishna

sarabhanga
17 August 2007, 09:29 PM
Namaste,

The “Lord of Navidapa” (situated at a measured distance beyond that which is immeasurable) is perhaps the “Navidya-pa” (?)

In the Bhagavadgita (or in any Hindu scripture), Lord Krishna NEVER uses the term “demigod” ~ the word only appears in misguided (and misleading) translations.

As an adjective, deva means “heavenly, divine, or highly excellent”.

As a noun, deva means God or Deity (cf. Latin DEVS ) ~ and deva is a common name for Lord Indra.

As a plural noun, devA refers to the Gods ~ especially the 33 prime Deities ~ and deva can refer generally to any image of Divinity or Deity.

Sanskrit DEVA is exactly cognate with Latin DEUS, which plainly indicates GOD.

The prefix DEMI- means HALF, so that DEMI-GOD means HALF-GOD or PARTLY GOD.

Why use such a belittling term for ANY Deity? Gods are Gods!

Indra is the King of Gods, Agni is the God of Fire, Sarasvati is the Goddess of Knowledge ~ there is NO half-measure about it.

And there is only ONE Mahadeva, who is certainly not a “partial” deity!

Agni is Fire ~ the perfect conception of Fire ~ and wherever the nature of Fire is present, there is Agnideva ~ the Fire God ~ the Lord of Fire ~ Fire in its essence ~ the very Self of Fire.

Terms such as “controller”, “administrator”, or “demigod”, are all rather pathetic titles for such a Deity.

And Lord Indra can not adequately be described as the “controller of rain”.

There is one Sun, but there are many Days ~ and all are Adityas.

One God with many aspects ~ all equally divine ~ a faceless Deity who projects ALL faces.

If Demigod is understood as “part (or aspect) OF God”, rather than “part God”, then perhaps it does have some value.

The original Greek “Hero” Demigod is part Man and part God ~ so that most Avataras of Vishnu would be well described as “Demigods”.

“Demigod” would be a better translation for Guru!

The words spoken by Lord Krishna are more appropriately translated:

“Those whose wisdom has been carried away by various desires, being prompted by their own nature, worship other Deities, adopting rules relating to each.
Whatever celestial form a devotee chooses to worship with reverence, I stabilize the faith of that particular devotee in that very form.
Endowed with such faith, he worships that particular Deity and obtains through Him, without doubt, his desired enjoyments as ordained by Myself.”

The “Deities” mentioned above could equally be rendered as “Gods”.

The One God encompasses and surpasses All Attributes.
And the many Gods are the various Attributes of the One that is beyond Attribution.

The One true God is known by many Names; and these Names evoke Forms.
And yet, the One true God encompasses and surpasses All Names, and All Forms.

That One God is effectively unimaginable, unnamable, and unable to be given worldly tribute.

Only in Samadhi can this One God be truly Known.

When various blind men examine an elephant, each from his own small perspective, each comes to his own understanding. For each man, his own experience and knowledge is perfectly true; although, with the gift of sight, and experience of the whole elephant, each man would soon realize that his previous arguments with his neighbours, over the true nature of the great beast before them, were futile and based on imperfect knowledge.

Ashoka has declared: “Truly, if a person extols his own sect and disparages other sects with a view to glorifying his sect owing merely to his attachment to it, he injures his own sect very severely by acting in this way.”

atanu
17 August 2007, 10:28 PM
Namaste,

The “Lord of Navidapa” (situated at a measured distance beyond that which is immeasurable) is perhaps the “Navidya-pa” (?)

-

Namaste Sarabhanga Ji,

One who is equipped with purports of Bhaktivinoda Thakur or HH SHRI Prabhupada, is beyond the pale of understanding 'situated at a measured distance beyond that which is immeasurable'.

They have transcended Buddhi.

Om Namah Shivaya

sarabhanga
18 August 2007, 01:26 AM
dvipa is “an elephant” (literally “drinking twice”), and particularly “the rut-fluid of an elephant”; and dvipa indicates “the number 8”.

And nava may indicate either “new” or “nine”.

So that navadvipa might be “the new elephant”, or “the rut-fluid of nine elephants”; or perhaps 9 x 8 (i.e. the number 72).

dvIpa, however, is “an island” or “a division of the terrestrial world”.

So that navadvIpa may be the “new island”, “nine islands” or “ninth island”.

There is in fact a region of the terrestrial world known as navadvIpa ~ and guess where it is. :cool1:

Navadvipa is just near Mayapura (West Bengal), which is the supposed birth-place of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “discovered” in 1887 by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

The Thakura built a temple on the spot, and I am sure that he would have described it as vaikuNTha (or Vishnu’s Heaven).

It was not where Krishna performed his pastimes, but rather it was where Caitanya grew up and played as a child. It is not many yojanas above the material heavens, but about 130 km from Kolkata. And it is not beyond the void, but to reach Navadvipa you may have to cross the Hooghly River (which is quite a flood during the monsoon). :rolleyes:

It is not wise to take the words of an ecstatic Bhakta too literally; but if that is your naïve want, then the procedure for attaining Vaikuntha is simply to visit the Thakura’s Mandir in mAyA-pur. ;)

atanu
18 August 2007, 02:02 AM
Atma,

But I asked where is Navidapa? And you replied that it was few yojanas away from Maha Vaikuntha. This thing is getting complicated.

Atman, do you mean Navidapa or do you mean Navadvipa? And in either case, you cannot refer to that place as being few yojanas away from Vaikuntha. Then tell us where is Maha Vaikuntha, at least?

But you are doing fine. Please keep it up. You will win eventually, since everyone must.

Regards

Atman
18 August 2007, 05:52 AM
I mean Navadvipa. The pastimes of Krsna- being on the same plane as Goloka Vrindavana. Within that is the island Mayapur- the 8 lotus petal. Maha vaikunta is said to be 500 million miles above vaikunta- aka Visnu-loka. The greatest souls and mahayogis worship that place- and the happiness experience there is said to be 10 million times greater than Visnu's realm- what to speak of other heavens?:D

atanu
18 August 2007, 08:14 AM
I mean Navadvipa. The pastimes of Krsna- being on the same plane as Goloka Vrindavana. Within that is the island Mayapur- the 8 lotus petal. Maha vaikunta is said to be 500 million miles above vaikunta- aka Visnu-loka. The greatest souls and mahayogis worship that place- and the happiness experience there is said to be 10 million times greater than Visnu's realm- what to speak of other heavens?:D

Thanks, Atma,

So, Navadvipa, which is on the same plane as Goloka Vrindavana, is a few furlongs from Maha Vaikuntha, which is 500 million miles above Vaikunta. In Navadvipa happiness is 10 million times that of Vishnu loka. I just summarised on your behalf. Yes, you are correct, since Goswamyji told me all these things.

Thank you again.

Do you know that there is a Krishnanagar, just a few kilometers from Navadwip, where actually Krishna sleeps and servants there are about 100 million times happier than in Navadwip? And then there is a Santipur, forming a triangular relation to Nawadwip and Krishnanagar, where Lord is so calm that you cannot see him, but happiness there is 1000 million times more than anywhere else. Goswamyji told all this to me in private. I am just revealing it because I have a small problem and I need help.

To reach all these lokas, I have to first find Vishnu Loka, then travel a 500 million miles to reach Maha Vaikunta. After that it will be cake walk, only a few miles --I am anticipating, I can visit all three places. I have been told confindentially that there is one hDfpur, wherefrom all these lokas can be reached easily -- I am also trying from there.

:hug: Does it help you dear Atma?

Regards and please carry on. You are doing excellently,

Om

Atman
18 August 2007, 09:56 AM
Thank you- what is hDfpur? Another interesting think I noticed is that perfect chastity is necessary to attain this sort of happiness and knowledge. I read somewhere that Krsna pleasure is * a zillion that of human orgasm and ejaculation.

Ganeshprasad
18 August 2007, 10:23 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

Happiness, how does one define that? What is the yard stick by which one can measure that, I wonder.

I be happy with just one drop, alas I just cant quench that thirst. What does your Goswami say?

If I want to be more happy does that follow I am not happy?

Hdfpur lol

By the way according to Markand puran above Brahm loka is Vishnu loka and way above that is Shiv loka but I suppose it all depends from what point one is looking.

How do I get there?

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
18 August 2007, 10:58 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

Happiness, how does one define that? What is the yard stick by which one can measure that, I wonder.

I be happy with just one drop, alas I just cant quench that thirst. What does your Goswami say?

If I want to be more happy does that follow I am not happy?

Hdfpur lol

By the way according to Markand puran above Brahm loka is Vishnu loka and way above that is Shiv loka but I suppose it all depends from what point one is looking.

How do I get there?

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaskar Ganeshprasad Ji,

Earlier I would have said that want of any desire is happiness. But now I say that innocence is happiness.

Regards,

Om

atanu
18 August 2007, 11:06 AM
Thank you- what is hDfpur? Another interesting think I noticed is that perfect chastity is necessary to attain this sort of happiness and knowledge. I read somewhere that Krsna pleasure is * a zillion that of human orgasm and ejaculation.

Dear Atman,

hDfpur is here and now (it is looked after by a knight in black armour and with a big sword).

You will definitely attain happiness (innocence is your strength). I have only one request: try to understand that the word Navadwip may be spoken of as differently in different language, like I speak of it as hDfpur.

Om

Agnideva
18 August 2007, 01:21 PM
hDfpur is here and now (it is looked after by a knight in black armour and with a big sword).

Unlike Maha Vaikuntha, which needs two gatekeepers, Jaya and Vijaya, HDFpur requires but one knight :D.

A.

Madhavan
18 August 2007, 03:12 PM
Thank you- what is hDfpur? Another interesting think I noticed is that perfect chastity is necessary to attain this sort of happiness and knowledge. I read somewhere that Krsna pleasure is * a zillion that of human orgasm and ejaculation.

Innocent comparisons?? The taittiriya has the ananda valli where the Ananda increases ten fold for every higher being, but stops with prajApati. Beyond this universe, there is no comparison. In Brahman it is infinity. Why do you reduce your Krishna to a zillion - that is still finite isnt' it?

Madhavan
18 August 2007, 04:00 PM
Regarding the clash of opinions regarding different dieties, I think the issue is more based on philosophy rather than the God himself. For a monist it is easy to accept all forms of God as equivalent. For a dualist, there is usually a supreme God, dieties and men who are distinct from each other.

Just posting verses praising Rudra or Vishnu is not sufficient to prove their supremacy since Brahman is the primary referrent of all names in the vedas. Brahman is known by many names such as nArayaNa, rudra, viSNu, indra, brahma and so on. But there are also dieties(abhimAni devata) with the same names. For eg, Indra, Agni and vAyu in the kena up who become ignorant are definitely not the supreme being. They enjoy a higher awareness than humans but still suffer from ignorance. These are the ones who could be called (demi) gods though the word devata would be preferred.

So, in the vyavahArika world, we have Ishvara, the supreme person who alone is worthy of worship. He is the one guru who can give mukti. Other dieties have inferior materialistic goals which have been pointed out in the Gita. (like 7.23)

Different traditions have different exigesis of the scripture for arriving at who this supreme person is, and is usually either vaishNavam or shaivam. Of the fourteen major comm. on vedanta sutras we have nine vaishNavite schools( rAmAnuja, madhva,nimbArka etc) , one shaivite school of srikanta and four that dont show any particular preference for the highest diety( advaita of shankara, bhAskara, yAdava prakASa etc).

There are no vedantic dualist schools that support the idea of "all gods being equal" so that is the reason why we run into conflict on these forums. When you have a forum called Hindu Dharma - decide beforehand it it supports monism or dualism. Both views simply cannot coexist.

Atman
18 August 2007, 04:03 PM
Innocent comparisons?? The taittiriya has the ananda valli where the Ananda increases ten fold for every higher being, but stops with prajApati. Beyond this universe, there is no comparison. In Brahman it is infinity. Why do you reduce your Krishna to a zillion - that is still finite isnt' it?

This is used as a metaphor- but the real meaning being that sensual and sexual pleasure has no comparison to spiritual love in Krsna rasa! And Prabupada also said that impersonal happiness even multipled trillions of times cannot equal one drop of bhakti, so if impersonal liberation is much greater than orgasmic pleasure- this figures literally also- since zillion is greater than trillion.

atanu
19 August 2007, 02:19 AM
This is used as a metaphor- but the real meaning being that sensual and sexual pleasure has no comparison to spiritual love in Krsna rasa! And Prabupada also said that impersonal happiness even multipled trillions of times cannot equal one drop of bhakti, so if impersonal liberation is much greater than orgasmic pleasure- this figures literally also- since zillion is greater than trillion.


Nice metaphors Atman,

It brings to mind the picture of one ejaculating a zillion times and then trying to figure out the joy of God. Two times benefit of a zillion times.

Atman is all.

Om

Madhavan
19 August 2007, 03:32 AM
This is used as a metaphor- but the real meaning being that sensual and sexual pleasure has no comparison to spiritual love in Krsna rasa! And Prabupada also said that impersonal happiness even multipled trillions of times cannot equal one drop of bhakti, so if impersonal liberation is much greater than orgasmic pleasure- this figures literally also- since zillion is greater than trillion.

what is meant by 'impersonal happiness'? Did prabupada experience it and compared with the 'drop of bhakti'? This is hilarious! Both trillion and zilion mean the same when compared with the one Anantam- 0%.

Atman
19 August 2007, 05:52 AM
what is meant by 'impersonal happiness'? Did prabupada experience it and compared with the 'drop of bhakti'? This is hilarious! Both trillion and zilion mean the same when compared with the one Anantam- 0%.

Impersonal happiness can be said to be merging into the brahman effulgence- the destination of the mahavadies or Buddhists. It is also a type of Nirvana happiness.
I don't know if Prabupada experienced this- but again, it probably is also used as a metaphor in comparison of the pure estatic love of Godhead experienced in ragauruna Bhakti.;)

Atman
19 August 2007, 06:04 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

By the way according to Markand puran above Brahm loka is Vishnu loka and way above that is Shiv loka but I suppose it all depends from what point one is looking.

How do I get there?

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati

Jai Shree Krishna

Yes- I read this also in the Universe of the Supreme Being. But it is also said to attain Shiva loka one's merit must be greater than Brahma loka- and after staying 100 births on Brahma's region, one can then come to Shiva's paradise.

Madhavan
19 August 2007, 07:31 AM
Yes- I read this also in the Universe of the Supreme Being. But it is also said to attain Shiva loka one's merit must be greater than Brahma loka- and after staying 100 births on Brahma's region, one can then come to Shiva's paradise.

Instead of just going through ISKCON sources please also lookup fairly neutral sources - try this link (search for the thread "Vishnu and Shiva")

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2003-March/thread.htm

You guys have no problems in calling christ or allah as krishna and yet call shiva as demigod - isn't that some kind of double standards?

Madhavan
19 August 2007, 08:36 AM
Impersonal happiness can be said to be merging into the brahman effulgence- the destination of the mahavadies or Buddhists. It is also a type of Nirvana happiness.
I don't know if Prabupada experienced this- but again, it probably is also used as a metaphor in comparison of the pure estatic love of Godhead experienced in ragauruna Bhakti.;)

But Advaitins are actually very much aware of the (ragauruna) bhakti, please read what Sri Ramakrishna has to say:

Sri Ramakrishna (to the Pundit) — What is samadhi? In samadhi, the mind becomes merged with the Absolute. The jnani passes into Jada Samadhi – in it, I-consciousness vanishes. The samadhi experienced in bhakti yoga is called Chetana Samadhi. In it, one retains the ego of the servant and Master relationship, the ego of lover and Beloved, or the ego of enjoyer and Bliss. The Lord is the Master and the devotee is the servant; the Lord is the Beloved and the devotee the lover; the Lord is the Fountain of Bliss and the devotee its enjoyer. The devotee does not want to become sugar; he wants to eat and enjoy it.
The Pundit — What will happen if God dissolves the ego completely, if He makes sugar of the devotee?
Sri Ramakrishna (smiling) — Feel free to say what you have on your mind. ‘Be frank for once, mother Kaushalya[38].’ (All laugh.) Don’t the scriptures talk of Narada, Sanaka, Sanatana, Sananda and Sanatkumara?
The Pundit — Yes sir, the scriptures mention them.
Sri Ramakrishna — Though they were jnanis, they retained their ego of devotion. Haven’t you read the Bhagavata?
The Pundit — I have read it partially, but not all of it.
Sri Ramakrishna — Pray to God. He is compassionate. Will He not listen to the words of His devotee? He is the wish-fulfilling tree[39]. Approach Him and ask: He will grant your wish.
The Pundit — I haven’t thought much about it before. Now I understand.
Sri Ramakrishna — After one attains knowledge of the Absolute, God permits a little ego to remain. This ego is the ‘I of the devotee,’ or the ‘I of knowledge’. It is with this ‘I’ that one enjoys His infinite play. Rubbing the pestle for a long time, it was reduced to a very small size. But when it fell into the forest of willows, it brought the destruction of the entire clan of Yadus[40]. That is why the vijnani keeps the ‘I of devotion’ or the ‘I of knowledge’, to enjoy the Bliss of God and to teach mankind.

http://www.kathamrita.org/kathamrita3/k3sec09.htm

satay
19 August 2007, 10:23 AM
You guys have no problems in calling christ or allah as krishna and yet call shiva as demigod - isn't that some kind of double standards?

namaste,

That's because 'these guys' are playing a pschological game like the missioaries of other religions. Jesus is the son of krishna so all good and valid, yet, all hindu gods are 'demi' :D When asked for the source of this from sastra, there is silence only.

atanu
25 August 2007, 02:28 PM
I wonder where Atman has gone? Has he gone off to look for hDfpur?

Atman
05 September 2007, 09:38 AM
Atman was feeling guilty after giving in to self pleasure. It was like feeling hell on earth- seriously.

satay
05 September 2007, 01:52 PM
Atman was feeling guilty after giving in to self pleasure. It was like feeling hell on earth- seriously.

What do you mean 'self pleasure'? Being in HDFPuri is 'self pleasure'? Not sure in what context...

Never mind...I read your other post...

Atman
06 September 2007, 11:02 AM
So I am recovering gradually- I just got some more inspiration from Julian Lee- but I am still upset- now I never want to relapse again.

Eastern Mind
08 September 2007, 07:50 AM
I'm new here, but reading the other messages regarding Siva as demigod... Obviously, each is entitled to his/her belief. I am a traditional Saivite, having adopted (as opposed to converted) Saivite Hinduism as the religion of my soul. I want to share an experience I had with ISKCON members recently. It was quite harmonious in the sprit of Hindu solidarity. We (the ISKCON chaps and myself, agreed that it was adharmic, and stupid to belittle the other's sect. Its the same God, I prefer to view the Supreme as Siva, and they prefer the bhakti style of Krsna worship. This seemed to be a welcome change to some of my previous discussions with ISKCON members. Aum namashivaya.

Agnideva
08 September 2007, 09:38 AM
Namaste EM,

Welcome to HDF :).


IWe (the ISKCON chaps and myself, agreed that it was adharmic, and stupid to belittle the other's sect. Its the same God, I prefer to view the Supreme as Siva, and they prefer the bhakti style of Krsna worship. ... Aum namashivaya.
This is excellent and much needed imho. I hope more people begin to see it in this way.

Aum Namah Shivaya.
A.

atanu
08 September 2007, 11:24 AM
Namaste EM,

Welcome to HDF :).


This is excellent and much needed imho. I hope more people begin to see it in this way.

Aum Namah Shivaya.
A.

Namaste agni,

But my way and their way will always be there till "I and they" remain. This is eternal.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 September 2007, 11:32 AM
Atman was feeling guilty after giving in to self pleasure. It was like feeling hell on earth- seriously.

In that case, I wonder what is the pain of remorse of the advaitaAtma, who sees infinite jivas giving in to self pleasure. If your guilt of one masturbation is so much hellish, then what should be the guilt of the ONE who is ALL? And what can be the terrible pain of lust of the One who is Param Vyom?

Is Atman ever guilty? You should find that out.

Om Namah Shivaya

Atman
08 September 2007, 01:32 PM
Thanks, Atma,

So, Navadvipa, which is on the same plane as Goloka Vrindavana, is a few furlongs from Maha Vaikuntha, which is 500 million miles above Vaikunta. In Navadvipa happiness is 10 million times that of Vishnu loka. I just summarised on your behalf. Yes, you are correct, since Goswamyji told me all these things.

Thank you again.

Do you know that there is a Krishnanagar, just a few kilometers from Navadwip, where actually Krishna sleeps and servants there are about 100 million times happier than in Navadwip? And then there is a Santipur, forming a triangular relation to Nawadwip and Krishnanagar, where Lord is so calm that you cannot see him, but happiness there is 1000 million times more than anywhere else. Goswamyji told all this to me in private. I am just revealing it because I have a small problem and I need help.

Regards and please carry on. You are doing excellently,

Om

Thank you. I am interested to know who is your Goswami? I think the santipur is located with in Mayapur- the centre of the 8th petal. I know the atman is above pleasure and pain- but it is said the deities do not respond to a masturbator- unless he seriously repents and makes an effort not to give in to it.

atanu
08 September 2007, 02:36 PM
Thank you. I am interested to know who is your Goswami? I think the santipur is located with in Mayapur- the centre of the 8th petal. I know the atman is above pleasure and pain- but it is said the deities do not respond to a masturbator- unless he seriously repents and makes an effort not to give in to it.

Namaskar,

At present my Goswami is my mind with its compelling attractions and aversions. I am striving and praying that the 'Good (Shiva) and all attractive (Krsna) Self', becomes my Goswami.

As far as I know, Santipur is located in West Bengal, in a traingular relation to Navadwip and Krishnanagar. You can open a map and check. But I also know that the real Santipur is here and now, which can be experienced in the silence after OM.

There can never be any Santipur located within Mayapur, where only Maya rules through delusion of separateness --- which is so strong that the occupants of Mayapur call other sages names like rascal, impotent, monkey etc. etc.

Best wishes to you towards your search for Santipur.

Regards,

Om

Atman
08 September 2007, 04:16 PM
I didn't mean Mayapur as is 'maya- illusion!'

In the southern portion of Mayapur, on the bank of the river Ganga and very near its junction with the river Sarasvati, is the extensive grove called Isodyana (The Lord's Garden). May that Garden be the place of my eternal devotions.

Thanks for the information anyway- I'll do some research.

Atman
09 September 2007, 06:56 AM
http://www.mayapur.com/b/?q=node/77- is this the same Santipur where the lord is so calm you cannot see him? I've heard this is a holy place- would like to go on pilgrimmage one day- where does it say 1000 million times happier more than anywhere else?

Atman
12 September 2007, 05:00 PM
http://mygurudev.com/cgi-bin/slideshoweng.pl?dir=santipurImages- please tell me this is the same place your Goswami told you- I think I've hit the nail on the head. Isn't this the same place where lord Krsna is so calm- but the happiness there is 1000 million times better than anywhere else?

atanu
13 September 2007, 03:38 AM
http://mygurudev.com/cgi-bin/slideshoweng.pl?dir=santipurImages- please tell me this is the same place your Goswami told you- I think I've hit the nail on the head. Isn't this the same place where lord Krsna is so calm- but the happiness there is 1000 million times better than anywhere else?

Namaskar,

Good Lord.

Yes. Yes. You've got it. I knew God was on your side. But you still have a pilgrimage to make -- physically and spiritually.

The place is in the Self, which appears as a place and also as Guru who prods Jiva to pilgrimage-- to involute. Then only Jiva can overcome Mayapur of Chatainya. The way Advaita Guru did it. That place where there is so much shanti that even Lord Krishna is invisible is a no Place and it is in your Chaiyanya since you only have to make a pilgrimage and behold it in your Chaitanya -- when Chaitanya will be Turya.

Goswami ji tells me that I was wrong. Happiness there is not 1000 million times more than anywhere else, but is the happiness itself -- source of happiness unequaled and immeasurable.

Om Namah Shivaya

Atman
18 September 2007, 06:47 AM
source of happiness unequaled and immeasurable.



Thank you- so then even the gopis desire this- although they are said to experience the highest happiness from meeting and seperating from Krsna.;)

atanu
18 September 2007, 07:41 AM
Thank you- so then even the gopis desire this- although they are said to experience the highest happiness from meeting and seperating from Krsna.;)

Yes, the pain of separation is very sweet. It keeps the antcipation of the union high. This is for the very romantic ones. First let there be union, then I will think about the separation.

Atman
18 September 2007, 11:04 AM
So it is said about the gopis of Vjara. Would they need to come to Santipur then- or are they on par with this unlimited happiness in their original spiritual forms.

atanu
19 September 2007, 03:45 AM
So it is said about the gopis of Vjara. Would they need to come to Santipur then- or are they on par with this unlimited happiness in their original spiritual forms.




Thank you- so then even the gopis desire this

Dear Atman,

The answer is contained in the earlier statement of yours, which I have quoted above.

Om

Atman
19 September 2007, 08:34 AM
Which means yes- there is supposed to be an area of land called 'Radha Kunda,'- special to the best devotess. Since Radharini is the best devotee- would she really need to come to Santipur in a physical form- since she can have the same rasa dance in Goloka Vrindavana.
Unless she wanted to experience Krnsa as separation- but Krsna also does this in his own realm- does he not?

atanu
19 September 2007, 08:57 AM
Which means yes- there is supposed to be an area of land called 'Radha Kunda,'- special to the best devotess. Since Radharini is the best devotee- would she really need to come to Santipur in a physical form- since she can have the same rasa dance in Goloka Vrindavana.
Unless she wanted to experience Krnsa as separation- but Krsna also does this in his own realm- does he not?

Namaste,

No. The desire indicates a desire for Shantipur, via Mayapur and then via Krishnanagar. When Krishna is in the Self, when He is the Self, how can Radharani find true Shanti elsewhere other than in Shantipur? Else the desire will always remain unfullfilled. If that is not what you want then of course you have the option of dancing or of experiencing a zillion ----. That is Mayapur for me.

Om

Atman
20 September 2007, 10:58 AM
Very interesting. So in that case Santipur is the best place to be- better than the Radha Kunda which is said to be extremely auspicious- as you get the dust of Krsna's lotus feet. Howcome this information isn't mentioned in the Bhagvatam- maybe it's too 'confidential?'
Maybe then it is better to say the Krishnanagar is where you can experience a zillion times happiness- and Santipur is the final frontier- where zillion and trillion means the same compared to the one anatam- 0%. However- I am still going to say that chastity and celibacy pave the way to this path- as Lord Brahma's children are perfectly continent.;)

atanu
20 September 2007, 12:51 PM
-However- I am still going to say that chastity and celibacy pave the way to this path- as Lord Brahma's children are perfectly continent.;)

Yes, I think you are very correct. Goswami Ji says that the flesh has to be known for what it is, mind has to be known for what it is, and Atman has to be known as Na Lipayate and as one's very core -- the being.

Best Wishes. May Lord Krishna make you and me happy.

Om

Atman
21 September 2007, 01:58 PM
Na Lipayate means without duality and thought in relation to Atman? Yes, this is necessary before one can receive the bliss of Godhead.

atanu
22 September 2007, 05:20 AM
Na Lipayate means without duality and thought in relation to Atman? Yes, this is necessary before one can receive the bliss of Godhead.

Namaskar Atman,

Na Lipayate to me means that which is always Good, untainted. It is good that you appear to accept that it means 'without duality and without thoughts'. I wonder, however, whether 'without duality' holds while receiving bliss.

Om

Atman
25 September 2007, 11:28 AM
As far as I know- duality vanishes when God (Krsna) gives his devotees greatest spiritual bliss.

atanu
26 September 2007, 02:30 AM
As far as I know- duality vanishes when God (Krsna) gives his devotees greatest spiritual bliss.

Namaskar Atman,

It is good. But I will ask Krishna, whether He withdraws the bliss and if He does so then why?

Om

Atman
26 September 2007, 05:58 PM
Please do. Ask him if he lets Gopi Radharini comes to Santipur to see him in his invisible form- and his other gopa friends- as seperation from seeing him afterwards gives the bliss of the bliss- Krsna himself.

atanu
27 September 2007, 02:18 AM
Please do. Ask him if he lets Gopi Radharini comes to Santipur to see him in his invisible form- and his other gopa friends- as seperation from seeing him afterwards gives the bliss of the bliss- Krsna himself.

Namaste,

Yes. Longer the separation, greater will be the bliss, possibly?

Om

Atman
04 October 2007, 10:04 AM
Yes it will- did you also know- there is a supreme region called the 25 wings of Paramdham- which is more indescribable than Goloka and Vaikuntha- and is the seat of pure unlimited bliss eternity and knowledge- probably equal to or greater than Santipur!

shivoham
29 January 2008, 05:24 AM
:) Here is an example of how one can be misguided by false propeganda of some secterian organization. This is some thing ridiculous for all those who have been Hindus by birth and know the religion. One and only God is Para BrahmaN. All others are His manifestations. But whom so ever you worship or pray you are blessed by BrahmaN and Maa Aadi Shakti. If you are a true Devotee of Shri Krishna or Bhagavan Shiva you should not enter in to such sense less discussions.

Atman
15 February 2008, 05:37 AM
http://www.pranami.org/index.shtml I don't know much about this organisation- but some parts are in accordance with the Bhagvatam.