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satay
06 July 2007, 12:51 PM
namaskar,

I would like to raise an issue that might seem like a very small issue, nonetheless, here it is.

I have seen several of us using the word 'mythology' when speaking of puranas or other hindus texts. In my opinion, we should use the more correct word 'Theology' instead.

Mythology implies that the vedic texts, stories are myths.

Thoelogy on dictionary.com is defined as

1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

Vedic system is the most advanced system of studying and analysing GOD and God's attributes. The system is not a myth and thus it is not mythology.

Vedic system is 'Thoelogy' in every sense of the word.

Just a request...

Agnideva
06 July 2007, 02:15 PM
Namaskar Satay,


Yes, you are right. I know we (particularly I) inadvertently use the term "mythology" sometimes when referring to Puranic literature. By this I do not mean to imply that there is any falsehood in them. Most certainly the Puranic literature is replete with theology, and that is what we are to extract from reading and understanding this body of literature, imho.


OM Shanti,
A.

Ganeshprasad
06 July 2007, 04:54 PM
namaskar,

I would like to raise an issue that might seem like a very small issue, nonetheless, here it is.

I have seen several of us using the word 'mythology' when speaking of puranas or other hindus texts. In my opinion, we should use the more correct word 'Theology' instead.

Mythology implies that the vedic texts, stories are myths.


Just a request...

Pranam Satay

your request is most reasonable and welcome.

What you term as small issue I think in my mind it is a fundamental attack on our dharma to term the puranas as 'myth'. Granted some of the stuff in it, we can not comprehend and some of it has been interpolated. But on the whole it forms a very important part in our dharma, it is the history of our past. So to term them as myth and follow the western propoganda we allow ourself to be rediculed.

Jai Shree Krishna

sarabhanga
06 July 2007, 09:26 PM
Myth is a legendary or stylized narrative, usually of a theme that expresses the ideology of a culture.

Myth is a way the unknowable can be understood ~ a device to think with, i.e. a way in which reality is classified and organized.

And myth is a type of speech, so that everything can be a myth, provided it is conveyed by a discourse.


What is Myth? (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1544&postcount=31)

satay
06 July 2007, 09:37 PM
Pranam Satay

your request is most reasonable and welcome.

What you term as small issue I think in my mind it is a fundamental attack on our dharma to term the puranas as 'myth'. Granted some of the stuff in it, we can not comprehend and some of it has been interpolated. But on the whole it forms a very important part in our dharma, it is the history of our past. So to term them as myth and follow the western propoganda we allow ourself to be rediculed.

Jai Shree Krishna

namaskar,

My sentiments exactly! It is glad to see at least one Hindu with the same feelings, confirms that I am not alone in this madness.

sarabhanga
06 July 2007, 10:51 PM
Namaste Satay,

I suppose you understand myth ONLY as "a completely misrepresented conception". Why be so strict? Surely it is only a problem when that negative meaning is actually intended.

Nuno Matos
07 July 2007, 05:25 PM
A myth is something that as free himself from the grip of history. It´s a narrative or a tale produced in out of time (sidhi time). It´s a non linear intimate conception of reality. So it has the same scatological effect on it`s listener`s that it had on it`s producers. Only someone in debt or scared with the here to come may want to take the myth and make him into history. Such a person should find a good guru and understand that what is really occidental mainstream thought it`s historicism not the contrary.


Nuno

saidevo
07 July 2007, 08:50 PM
Hindu Puranas speak of the history of Bharat over the four yugas of perhaps several manvantaras and kalpas. They of course contain stories but it is mostly history as the very term purana indicates. Kanchi Paramacharya said that by researching the Puranas and the Stala Puranas the correct history of Bharat can be written.

Swami Prakashananda in his Website http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/5_divine_writings.htm says:

"But the descriptions of our Puranas, Upnishads and the other scriptures are not only the happenings of the material plane, they also include the happenings of the Divine and the celestial dimensions. This is the reason that sometimes they don’t fit within the conceptual framework of a material mind."

In addition to the narrow meaning of the term mythology, I think Hindus should also avoid using the term 'idol' and use 'icon' in its place, which has the additional meaning 'a representation', and remains somewhat equivalent to the Sanskrit term 'murti' or 'pratima'.

sarabhanga
08 July 2007, 12:21 AM
In addition to the narrow meaning of the term mythology …

I have tried to show that mythology does NOT actually have a narrow negative meaning, only that it must refer to an oral tradition.




In Greek, muthos is anything delivered by word of mouth, word, or speech; a speech in the public assembly; talk or conversation; counsel or advice, a command, an order, and also a promise; the subject of speech, or the thing or matter itself; a resolve, purpose, design, or plan; a saying or proverb; the talk of men, and thus rumor.


muthos > mythos > mythus > myth

Myth is a tale, a story, or a narrative; a traditional or recurrent narrative theme or pattern; a standard plot in literature; or a traditional story providing an explanation for or embodying a popular idea concerning some natural or social phenomenon or some religious belief or ritual.

And a myth may be an idealized or exaggerated, or even (though not necessarily) a completely misrepresented, conception.

Myth is a legendary or stylized narrative, usually of a theme that expresses the ideology of a culture.

Myth is a way the unknowable can be understood ~ a device to think with, i.e. a way in which reality is classified and organized.

And myth is a type of speech, so that everything can be a myth provided it is conveyed by a discourse.




“the descriptions of our Puranas, Upanishads and the other scriptures are not only the happenings of the material plane, they also include the happenings of the Divine and the celestial dimensions. This is the reason that sometimes they don’t fit within the conceptual framework of a material mind.”

And this is the very reason that they have often been conveyed in a mythic narrative!


Icon comes from the Greek eikōn, meaning “likeness, similitude, or image”.
Idol comes from the Greek eidōlon, meaning “form, shape, or image”.

An icon may be a portrait or picture, a statue, or even a realistic description in writing.
An icon is “a sign with some factor in common with the object it represents”.

An idol is “an image or representation of a god or divinity used as an object of worship”.
An idol may be any object of extreme devotion, but especially a statue.

Both terms indicate “a likeness”, and (so far) both are entirely applicable, although idol has more exactly the meaning of mūrti.

In Christianity, however, the term icon is used for “an image of Jesus or a holy person that is venerated in the Orthodox Church”, whereas an idol is “a false god”, and thus “a counterfeit, sham, impostor, or pretender”, “an image without substance, a reflection, or a phantom”, “a fantasy, a false conception, a misleading notion or fallacy”.

An icon is a Christian (thus, and only for this reason, “true”) image, while an idol is a non-Christian (thus “false”) image. :rolleyes:

Ganeshprasad
08 July 2007, 08:13 AM
Pranam all
Definition of myth in oxford dictionary
Myth n. Fictitious (primitive) tale, usu. involving supernatural persons, embodying some popular idea concerning natural or historical phenomena; fictitious person or object.


Myth is used in everyday life as some thing false and this is what I am concerned about there is no positive use of this word in general use.

If I may use an example for instance gay was use to mean merry: full of light-heartedness and merriment
but now the use of the word is commonly know for, attracted to same sex: relating to sexual attraction or activity among members of the same sex.

I would prefer puranas to be just that, it means history and just as Saidevo ji has explained very nicely that it is history not just for this yugas but perhaps several manvantaras and kalpas.

There is no room in my mind, doubt or give even a small credence that puranas are myth i.e. fictitious.

Jai Shree Krishna

satay
08 July 2007, 06:57 PM
namaskar,
What's the problem in using the correct word 'Theology' when talking about puranas and other Vedic texts?

Why must we debate the use of the term 'mythology'. This term is clearly being used to undermine the truth of the Vedas as if to imply that those who believe in the Vedas are some sort of uneducated people. I am the only one to observe that western scholars use the appropriate terms when it comes to other religions other than Sanatana Dharma?

Why must our scholars keep insisting and supporting the use of the term mythology when it comes to Hindu religious texts? Why not adopt and support the proper term 'theology'?

Any particular reason?

sarabhanga
08 July 2007, 07:31 PM
Namaste,

Perhaps my opinion is too academic and literary. :dunno:

The Oxford Dictionary suggests that the word myth appeared in English language only in the 19th century, with the meanings:

“A traditional story, either wholly or partially fictitious, providing an explanation for or embodying a popular idea concerning some natural or social phenomenon or some religious belief or ritual, especially one involving supernatural persons, actions or events.”

“A widely-held (especially untrue or discredited) story or belief; a misconception; a misrepresentation of the truth; an exaggerated or idealized conception.”

Due to popular understanding, I suppose we should avoid the term mythology ~ which has been used since the 17th century as “a symbolical meaning, a parable, or an allegory”, and since the 18th century to indicate simply “a set of beliefs”. :(

I cannot agree that the Puranas are intended as word for word truth, with no symbolism, no allegory, and without exaggeration or idealization.

In modern academic usage, mythos is “a traditional or recurrent narrative theme or pattern”, and I cannot accept that our scriptures are lacking in mythos (i.e. without recurrent narrative themes).

“Mythology may be regarded as the poetry of religion.” ~ W. H. Prescott.

MysticalGypsi
08 July 2007, 07:40 PM
Agni, you are such a sincere and kind person, we all know that you would not imply anything negative about Hinduism. You always go above and beyond to help anyone who asks for direction on Hinduism and always do it in a caring way.

satay
08 July 2007, 08:25 PM
Namaste,

Perhaps my opinion is too academic and literary. :dunno:


Namaskar and Pranamas!

Despite the term 'myth' having a different academic and literary meaning, the context in which it is being applied by the western scholars gives it the connotation of fiction especially when it is used for Hindu texts. That is to say that the meaning of the word almost always implies that the stories of puranas and other hindu texts are untrue and fiction.

This is not to say that simply because western scholars lack the courtesy of using the term in its correct academic context that just because they imply that hindu texts are fiction and as a result those who follow are uneducated snake charmers, that it makes it true. However, I still don't see why we can't promote the correct term 'Theology'.

In your opinion, does the word 'mythology' capture the truth of the hindu texts that ring true today for most hindus?

satay
08 July 2007, 08:26 PM
Agni, you are such a sincere and kind person, we all know that you would not imply anything negative about Hinduism. You always go above and beyond to help anyone who asks for direction on Hinduism and always do it in a caring way.

namaskar MG,
True that!

saidevo
08 July 2007, 09:03 PM
I fully agree with Satay's observation that the term myth and mythology are used in a derogatory way to refer to Hindu Puranas by all those who despise Hinduism. As Sarabhanga says they can't be all history because the history of the Puranas is interspersed with symbology, legend and allegory, which perhaps make people think that the Puranas are nothing more than myth and legend. I think, however, that the main intention of the Puranas is to tell the history of Bharata Varsha.

To quote from the Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary and the The Occult Glossary:



Purana is a Sanskrit word which literally means "ancient," "belonging to olden times." The subject matter of Hindu Puranas is commonly enumerated as

(1) the beginnings or "creation" of the universe;
(2) its renewals and destructions, or manvantaras and pralayas;
(3) the genealogies of the gods, other divine beings, heroes, and patriarchs;
(4) the reigns of the various manus; and
(5) a resume of the history of the solar and lunar races.

Practically none of the Puranas as they stand in modern versions contains all these five topics, except perhaps the Vishnu-Purana, probably the most complete in this sense of the word; and even the Vishnu-Purana contains a great deal of matter not directly to be classed under these five topics. All the Puranas also contain a great deal of symbolical and allegorical writing.

The invariable form of the Puranas is of a dialogue between an exponent or teacher and an inquirer or disciple, interspersed with the dialogues and observations of other individuals.

The Puranas ingeniously interweave allegory with cosmic facts and far later human events. "Puranic astronomy, with all its deliberate concealment and confusion for the purpose of leading the profane off the real track, was shown even by Bentley to be a real science; and those who are versed in the mysteries of Hindu astronomical treatises, will prove that the modern theories of the progressive condensation of nebulae, nebulous stars and sun, with the most minute details about the cyclic progress of asterisms -- far more correct than Europeans have even now -- for chronological and other purposes, were known in India to perfection.

"If we turn to geology and zoology we find the same. What are all the myths and endless genealogies of the seven Prajapati and their sons, the seven Rishis or Manus, and of their wives, sons and progeny, but a vast detailed account of the progressive development and evolution of animal creation, one species after the other? ..." (HP Blavatsky in SD 2:253, 284)


One unique, amazing and distinguishing feature of the Hindu Puranas is that more often they trace a person's life across previous births! They also contain graphic geographical, historical, astronomical, scientific and social descriptions portraying the life and the country at different periods of time. These are perhaps indications of the mass of historical content in them.

sarabhanga
08 July 2007, 09:35 PM
Namaste Satay,

I have no particular objection to either term, but neither is entirely appropriate in every case. It really depends on context and intention.

Theology is “the branch of knowledge that deals with theistic religion”, “the organized body of knowledge dealing with the nature, attributes, and governance of God”, or simply “divinity”.

More specifically, theology indicates “a particular system or theory of religion” or “the rational analysis of a religious faith”.

And theology may even be used (in a derogatory sense) as “a system of theoretical principles” or “an impractical or rigid ideology”.

Hindu scripture, however, may certainly be described as “the organized body of knowledge dealing with the nature, attributes, and governance of God”. :)

Agnideva
08 July 2007, 09:43 PM
Agni, you are such a sincere and kind person, we all know that you would not imply anything negative about Hinduism. You always go above and beyond to help anyone who asks for direction on Hinduism and always do it in a caring way.

Namaste MG (et al.),

Thank you much for the kind words :). And, yes I do not mean to imply anything negative or derogatory when I used the term “mythology” to refer to Puranas. This thread, however, has been most beneficial. At some point or another, we have to have a conversation like this to ask ourselves how we are to deal with and interpret an entire body of Hindu literature in our modern rational world.

Whenever I have read from the Puranas, I have come across what I believe to be literal (historical) truth and theological principles mixed in with much symbolism and allegory both in the language and imagery. I believe these books are written in such a manner quite on purpose, so that as we unfold spiritually, the simple-sounding legends may become more meaningful. This is my approach anyway.

Having said that, I can also see the point that Satay and others members are making here, i.e. the term “mythology” carries with it a lot of negative connotations in common understanding, and it ought not be used by us to propagate the negatives further. I can definitely agree with that. Saidevo has given another fine example of the term “idol”, which I consciously avoid using in my posts, even if it be technically the correct term. I prefer the term murti or image, and image worship. Per Sarabhanga-ji’s definition, the term image can be applied to both idol and icon, so I assume it is not incorrect to call murti as image, be it technically an idol or icon.

With reference to Puranas, perhaps we can all agree to use the term Purana itself or Puranic literature or something along those lines.

OM Shanti,
A.

satay
08 July 2007, 11:06 PM
Only someone in debt or scared with the here to come may want to take the myth and make him into history.


Nuno

Namaste Nuno,

I don't follow what you are trying to convey. Please could you rephrase?

I am sorry to have confuse you...no one is scared if ignorant scholars use the term mythology with wrong implied meanings to describe hinduism.

satay
09 July 2007, 01:05 AM
namaskar all,
My apologies for being one-pointed. This one pointedness comes from influence of Sani God as sri yajvan had advised me. :Cool:

Sani Devta ke Jai!

Nuno Matos
09 July 2007, 09:10 AM
Namaste!

Dear Satay, the correct word wen referring to Puranas or other texts would be Theofany from the Greek theophaneia, that means the manifestation of a divinity.
Theofany is subject, in a human sense, to be study by theology and mythology. Been the first related to the gods propose and the second to the history of gods and fantastic heroes from ancient time. All this according to my dictionary, that says as well that mythology is an exposition of an idea or of one doctrine under a voluntary poetic or religious form *.

*Dictionary of Portuguese language, Porto Editora and Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English

Om saraswati jay!

Nuno Matos
09 July 2007, 09:37 AM
Namaste!
Icon comes from the Greek eikōn, meaning “likeness, similitude, or image”.
Idol comes from the Greek eidōlon, meaning “form, shape, or image”.

Icon=Simulation
Idol=Simulacrum

That´s it!

A simulation is not true but a simulacrum is.

Om saraswati jay!

yajvan
09 July 2007, 03:59 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

namaskar all,
My apologies for being one-pointed. This one pointedness comes from influence of Sani God as sri yajvan had advised me. :Cool: Sani Devta ke Jai!

Namaste satay,
this one-pointedness is a blessing too, for one's tapas, yes? or building a bridge? or finishing ones assignments. Sani is slow but sure, resolute.

He is the karaka of work, of finishing things, of completion as you try and 'finish' this particular HDF post & thought here satisfactorily.

pranams,

sarabhanga
09 July 2007, 07:06 PM
Namaste Nuno,

Simulation and simulacrum are both derived from the Latin simulare (“to simulate”).

Simulation is “the act of simulating” or (in modern language) “a model produced by this means”.

And to simulate is “to assume the appearance or signs of something”, “to feign, pretend to be, or to imitate”.

Simulacrum is quite appropriate, originally referring to “a material image or representation of something (especially a God)”; although, in modern language there may be negative connotations, “a thing having the appearance but not the substance or proper qualities of something”, and thus “a deceptive imitation or substitute”, or “a pretence”.

Theophany is “the visible manifestation of God to humankind”, a term which may be applied to the whole of Creation! Whereas, theology (specifically referring to words on God, rather than the sight of God) seems more appropriate to describe the Puranas.

Nuno Matos
09 July 2007, 09:23 PM
Namaste!

Tank you dear Sarabhanga, it was very illuminating on the Puranas subject.




Om Saraswati Jay!