PDA

View Full Version : Jiva's coming and going all day long!



yajvan
06 July 2007, 01:34 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Have you wondered how many beings on this earth pursue and achieve Kevaka ( Moksha)? Here's and idea or two, I do not have an answer, but care to share a few numbers with you.

To get a human body is a rare thing, make use of it.. You should never consider yourself weak or a fallen creature. Whatever may have happened up till now may be because you didn’t know, but now be careful ~ after getting a human body, if you don’t reach God, then you have sold a diamond at the price of spinach. Swami Brahmanand Saraswati, Shankarachara of Jyotir Math,

Lord Karttikaya ( Skanda) asks Avvaiyar ( a.k.a. Grandmother) a devottee of Ganesha, 4 questions, and the last one he asks "What is rare?"
The response: "Rare is a human birth, rarer still is a birth without deformity. Still rarer is a human birth interested in wisdom; one possessing charity and penence. How great it is (then) to do seva and pursue the path of Moksha.

This rare-ness of people pursuing Moksha. Even Krsna says there are very few.
How many do we think? How many jiva's come and go in this world daily?
How many people are on this planet today? And how many are unfolding Moksha?

How many people come and go on this earth?
128.9 million births per year, that's 4 births per second - every day
57.9 million people die each year, or 2 deaths each second
More are born then die these days, by a factor 2.2X

So, we're cycling though jiva's on a regular basis... coming and going, working out ones karma. Yet as they come to this earth what is their disposition for Moksha , for Sadhana?

How many people on this earth? as of today 6th of july, 2007: 6.606 Billion. 60% live on the Continent of Asia.

So, out of 6.606 Billion how many are mukti's, or just about there? Lets look at some small numbers:
If it was 1% I would rejoice, as that would be 66.06 million, one could not help to feel this influence.
1/2%? or 33 million? Still seems high don't you think?
Lets go to a low number - 0.031% or 1/3rd of 1% - that would give us 2.06 million mukti's on this earth. What do you think? How many are walking today in kavelya ( in Brahman) 0.015% or 1 million? Even that seems high, but I have nothing to base it on.

We know many many people pursue this level of Being, of Bhuma.. yet how many today are reaching this? One pro-ponent of an enlightened society is Maharishi Mehesh Yogi. His math suggests the world needs a minimum of 1% of the population to create this condition, 'heaven on earth' as he said. One must assume in Sat Yuga, this was easily achieved, yet Kali Yuga, it is a challenge.

What are your thoughts on this? It would seem that India, with its focus on this as a core life value, would have the most jivanmukti's for this earth to benefit from.

Those that live in India , do you have any comments? India has 1.13 billion or 17% of the worlds population. If we used this very very small number of 0.015% , that would = 176,000 enlightened beings walking the earth in India. Is this possible?

' No effort is ever lost' - Krsna

sarabhanga
06 July 2007, 10:31 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have previously estimated: Given that there about 900,000,000 Hindus in India, there should be about 8,000,000 Brahmanas. And of those Brahmanas, there should be about 70,000 Sannyasins. And of those Sannyasins, there should be about 600 Paramahamsas who have fully realized the Brahman.

yajvan
14 July 2007, 12:28 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

I have previously estimated: Given that there about 900,000,000 Hindus in India, there should be about 8,000,000 Brahmanas. And of those Brahmanas, there should be about 70,000 Sannyasins. And of those Sannyasins, there should be about 600 Paramahamsas who have fully realized the Brahman.

Namaskar sarabhanga,

If we consider 600 Brahmavit's that = 0.0000531% of India's population.
I am happy it is 600 and not 100! Of the 600, what are your thoughts on how many are taking on sisya's (some write shishya)?

And of the 600 I am in hopes they are in a position to be one of the next Shankarayacharya's?

pranams,

Kaos
14 July 2007, 06:07 PM
If we consider 600 Brahmavit's that = 0.0000531% of India's population.
I am happy it is 600 and not 100! Of the 600, what are your thoughts on how many are taking on sisya's (some write shishya)?

And of the 600 I am in hopes they are in a postion to be one of the next Shankarayacharya's?

pranams,



Wow, 600 out of an estimated world population of 6 billion plus.
That's very encouraging. Thank you very much. ;)


World population 2007
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/xx.html (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/xx.html)

Kaos
14 July 2007, 07:31 PM
Judging by these miniscule numbers it would mean that Buddhist boddhisattvas will take an awfully a looong time to liberate all sentient beings. :)

Oh, not to worry, since time is non-linear.

Kaos
14 July 2007, 08:15 PM
Yajvan,
I'm surprised you didn't make it among the 600.

Or did ya? ;)

sarabhanga
15 July 2007, 02:23 AM
Namaste,

By “Paramahamsas who have fully realized the Brahman” I was referring to those who are actually jIvanmukta (i.e. liberated before death from all liability to future births); and given that reincarnation is the norm, one might expect that the number of such truly liberated souls yet incarnate would always be exceptionally small. But I would assume that most of these would initiate at least one shiSya before leaving incarnation for the very last time. Some may be Shankaracaryas and others may remain reclusive and unknown.

yajvan
15 July 2007, 09:51 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

By “Paramahamsas who have fully realized the Brahman” I was referring to those who are actually jIvanmukta (i.e. liberated before death from all liability to future births); and given that reincarnation is the norm, one might expect that the number of such truly liberated souls yet incarnate would always be exceptionally small. But I would assume that most of these would initiate at least one shiSya before leaving incarnation for the very last time. Some may be Shankaracaryas and others may remain reclusive and unknown.

Namaste sarabhanga,
thank you for your response... yes I was thinking jivanmukti from the start.
Is see Brahama-vit as established in Brahman, in the SELF, so for this conversation , one and the same.

From my end , it looks like we have a manufacturing problem on this earth, yes? We as a society are not creating enough muni's, as the earth swells with issues and operating outside of many of the natural laws that keep balance, hence Kali yuga.

If the jivanmukti's give diksha to one other and they become jivanmukti, we're replacing, yet not increasing the sattva on this good earth.

This is the conundrum I see for this time...one of scale ( numbers) and scope ( quality of life).

Any thoughts on its resolution, other then having Kali coming to an end and staring over with a new sheet of paper? We still have ~400,000 years left in this yuga, plenty of time to change direction, wouldn't you say?

My thoughts ahve been to improve ones own spiritual development, then become that exponent of that truth (satyam & ritam). This has been my game plan. Perhaps as time moves on and in the next few years I will have the opportunity to spend time with one of these great beings.

pranams,

Znanna
15 July 2007, 11:26 AM
Judging by these miniscule numbers it would mean that Buddhist boddhisattvas will take an awfully a looong time to liberate all sentient beings. :)

Oh, not to worry, since time is non-linear.


Agreed :D


ZN

sarabhanga
16 July 2007, 11:50 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

600 Jivanmuktas out of 900,000,000 practicing Hindus means 1 in 1,500,000.

And 128,900,000 births per year from 6,606,000,000 humans means that (if Hindus reproduce at an average rate) there should be about 17,560,000 Hindu births per year, and around 12 Hindu births every year would be destined for Jivanmukti.

It has been suggested that 1% of world population (i.e. 66,060,000) must be Jivanmukta in order to have an “enlightened society” and to bring about “heaven on earth”. But let us examine the (highly speculative) numbers:

Even if the whole world adopted Hindu Dharma, we might expect no more than 5,000 Jivanmuktas incarnate at any one time!

Now, assuming 600 Jivanmuktas out of 8,000,000 practicing Brahmans, about 1 in 13,000 practicing Brahmans is actually “liberated in life”. And, assuming that devout Brahmans reproduce at an average rate, they should bear about 156,000 children every year, and about 260 of those Brahmans born every year would be potential Jivanmuktas.

If all Hindus were devout Brahmans, we might expect about 67,500 Jivanmuktas; and even if everyone in the world was a devout Brahman, even then we might expect no more than 500,000 Jivanmuktas.

Assuming 600 Jivanmuktas out of 70,000 practicing Sannyasins, that means 1 in every 117 Sannyasins is Jivanmukta. And we should expect no births at all among Sannyasins!

If all Brahmans became Sannyasins, then perhaps more than 68,000 Jivanmuktas would result. And if all Hindus took Sannyasa, then we could have about 7,700,000 Jivanmuktas, which is still well below 1% of the world population.

If the whole world took Sannyasa, however, then there would be about 56,500,000 Jivanmuktas, which approaches the degree of mass enlightenment supposed necessary for establishing “heaven on earth”. But then there would be no humans reproducing, and our species would soon be extinguished!!

This would be “heavenly” for the natural environment, but the “enlightened society” would continue only while the liberated remained incarnate. Or perhaps the Maharishi did not consider family life as an obstacle to Liberation?

The estimated number of practicing Brahmans is about 0.12% of the current world population ~ but I really have no idea how many Hindus claim to be Brahman, nor how many of those are living up to their dharmic expectations!

I would assume that if just 1% of the world population were practicing Brahmans (not necessarily Jivanmukta) then we might indeed have something approaching an enlightened society.

sm78
17 July 2007, 02:20 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

600 Jivanmuktas out of 900,000,000 practicing Hindus means 1 in 1,500,000.

And 128,900,000 births per year from 6,606,000,000 humans means that (if Hindus reproduce at an average rate) there should be about 17,560,000 Hindu births per year, and around 12 Hindu births every year would be destined for Jivanmukti.

It has been suggested that 1% of world population (i.e. 66,060,000) must be Jivanmukta in order to have an “enlightened society” and to bring about “heaven on earth”. But let us examine the (highly speculative) numbers:

Even if the whole world adopted Hindu Dharma, we might expect no more than 5,000 Jivanmuktas incarnate at any one time!

Now, assuming 600 Jivanmuktas out of 8,000,000 practicing Brahmans, about 1 in 13,000 practicing Brahmans is actually “liberated in life”. And, assuming that devout Brahmans reproduce at an average rate, they should bear about 156,000 children every year, and about 260 of those Brahmans born every year would be potential Jivanmuktas.

If all Hindus were devout Brahmans, we might expect about 67,500 Jivanmuktas; and even if everyone in the world was a devout Brahman, even then we might expect no more than 500,000 Jivanmuktas.

Assuming 600 Jivanmuktas out of 70,000 practicing Sannyasins, that means 1 in every 117 Sannyasins is Jivanmukta. And we should expect no births at all among Sannyasins!

If all Brahmans became Sannyasins, then perhaps more than 68,000 Jivanmuktas would result. And if all Hindus took Sannyasa, then we could have about 7,700,000 Jivanmuktas, which is still well below 1% of the world population.

If the whole world took Sannyasa, however, then there would be about 56,500,000 Jivanmuktas, which approaches the degree of mass enlightenment supposed necessary for establishing “heaven on earth”. But then there would be no humans reproducing, and our species would soon be extinguished!!

This would be “heavenly” for the natural environment, but the “enlightened society” would continue only while the liberated remained incarnate. Or perhaps the Maharishi did not consider family life as an obstacle to Liberation?

The estimated number of practicing Brahmans is about 0.12% of the current world population ~ but I really have no idea how many Hindus claim to be Brahman, nor how many of those are living up to their dharmic expectations!

I would assume that if just 1% of the world population were practicing Brahmans (not necessarily Jivanmukta) then we might indeed have something approaching an enlightened society.

LOL ... i thoroughly enjoyed reading this. Isin't calling oneself Maharishi or a normal Rishi against scripture as Rishi's incarnate a cycle of creation once.

I think the world will be the world. Those who offer ways to make it a heaven never ever grasped the creation and its purpose. If one soul in a many millions attains liberation amids this madness (we call world), it serves purpose of all the trouble. And asuras are much necessary as jivanmuktas to make this work...ow their wud be no sense of direction.

________________________________________________________

Edit to Add: I am not sure what my post conveys, but I was just agreeing with what Sarabhanga ji is saying, per haves making another point in doing so.

yajvan
17 July 2007, 09:11 AM
600 Jivanmuktas out of 900,000,000 practicing Hindus means 1 in 1,500,000.

It has been suggested that 1% of world population (i.e. 66,060,000) must be Jivanmukta in order to have an “enlightened society” and to bring about “heaven on earth”. But let us examine the (highly speculative) numbers:

Even if the whole world adopted Hindu Dharma, we might expect no more than 5,000 Jivanmuktas incarnate at any one time!

I would assume that if just 1% of the world population were practicing Brahmans (not necessarily Jivanmukta) then we might indeed have something approaching an enlightened society.

Namaste sarabhanga,
thank your for the calculations and the opinions... I get a different number for the population of India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population#Population_distribution .

I got 6.6 billion people in the world X 17.1% of the worlds population or 1.128 billion people living in India. So, 600 jivanmukti = 1 for every 1,800,000. Yet this is neither here-nor-there as they say in the West.

Some questions... Are you using Brahman class to increase the likely hood of one practicing sadhana and the higher probability of moksha? Or is there a finer point I may be unaware of. That is, can we use a larger population to hit 'critical mass' for moksha other then brahmin class?

Also - one thing you point out and I concur, if there are more practicing brahmans, then we increase the possibility of a better society. That is, more people choosing a spiritual path , no matter what path, yama and niyama would be on the up-swing and negative tendencies would subside, even before moksha dawns. Perhaps that is the 1% factor? That alone, would improve the quality of life world over. I think that may have been your point?

Another finer point - family life. I dot not think this is an impediment. Some of the greatest where householders and had children raised to be kavi's and rishi's. They continued the parampara and the lineage of human beings.

Yet the key to this puzzle is that of spiritual awakening and the pursuit of moksha. It is my humble belief that no matter what varna, this pursuit here in atmaloka is possible. So , hence, the 'sample size' for more enlightened goes up exponentially. That is why I alluded to the some of the numbers suggested of 1%. I use this not to defend the number, but its the only one I have seen that was given some thought and I think is pretty conservative. I wold prefer 10% , yes?. Now do I think this is possible? Yes, as I look to Sat Yuga and what is possible. As I understand Sat Yuga, there were no restrictions or varna, as there needn't be. Dharma was in reign and classes and colors were of little use, as all knew what was expected of them, and people lived in harmony with the cosmos.
That is my desire for the family of man. Beyond the bickering, the angst, and the thrashing of life in Kali Yuga. WE are better then this because we are vispulinga. We need to remind ourselves of or heritage, visvashika (more then this universe, the Absolute).

Pranams, and thank you again for taking the time to consider this concept.

Znanna
17 July 2007, 07:28 PM
Namaste,

Please forgive me if this is OT.

It seems to me that there has been some sort of significant evolution over the past, say, 30 years, and that pace is accelerating on a sort of log scale.

Transparency is an interesting concept. To my eye, more and more are *seeing* rather than observing ... as some say, the veil between worlds has been pierced. I would expect therefore that to assume a constant, linear, rate of, um, uptake :) ... would be an assumption which may not be accurate. A log function to me seems to be what might be the regression if one were to take data points and then use them to create assumptions for analysis.

Fractals, baby ...

(hey, Kaos, I know you grok chaos theory, wanna speculate?)




ZN

Kaos
17 July 2007, 07:45 PM
Transparency is an interesting concept. To my eye, more and more are *seeing* rather than observing ... as some say, the veil between worlds has been pierced. I would expect therefore that to assume a constant, linear, rate of, um, uptake :) ... would be an assumption which may not be accurate. A log function to me seems to be what might be the regression if one were to take data points and then use them to create assumptions for analysis.

Fractals, baby ...

(hey, Kaos, I know you grok chaos theory, wanna speculate?)




ZN


Yes, ZN, I agree.
Even the Buddhist concept of "boddhisattvas vow to liberate all sentient beings" is but a verbal designation.

Why?
Because, the term "sentient being" is a discrimination, and if discrimination of a "sentient being" arises in a boddhisattva, he should not be called a boddhisattva.

Therefore, although, countless sentient beings have reached final nirvana, no sentient being whatsoever has reached nirvana. :D

Yes, I agree with too with chaos theory. The simple is contained within the complex and the complex within the simple. It is like looking at the universe in a grain of sand.

Kind regards,
Kaos

sarabhanga
18 July 2007, 01:53 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have not mentioned the total population of India, only considering the number of Hindus in India, and thus only the number of Jivanmuktas potentially incarnate in India. I suppose that the number of Hindus in the whole world would be a more appropriate starting point, but the overwhelming majority of Hindus are in India.

I have assumed that all Jivanmuktas will be Hindu. And I have assumed that, even if not born as a Brahman, they will behave as and be recognized as a Brahman. And I have assumed that Brahmans striving for moksha will resort to Sannyasa at some point in their lives. So my basic assumption has been that all Jivanmuktas will be Sannyasins.

The ancient Rishis were reincarnated numerous times, and most of them are supposed to reside in the intermediate regions rather than in Brahmaloka (which alone guarantees exemption from re-birth). Immortal (but not Jivanmukta) Munis, Siddhas, etc., retaining their perfected bodies, dwell in Bhuvarloka; Bhrigu and other imperishable Rishis and Saints dwell in Maharloka; Janarloka is inhabited by Brahma’s own sons, the Sanatkumara; and deified Vairagins reside in Taparloka; and all of them will suffer reincarnation.

Only Advaita philosophy presupposes the real possibility of absolute Jivanmukti.

Brahmacarya (the practice or pursuit of the Brahman) is a basic requirement of Sanatana Dharma, and the very first step in establishing an enlightened society.

And the varnas were present even in Satyuga (as a result of creation), but all individuals were perfect in following their Dharma, and all lived in harmony with the newly diversified cosmos.

Also, I have heard that there are presently about 10,000,000 Sannyasins in India and Nepal, so my estimate of 70,000 seriously practicing Sannyasins may be too harsh ~ perhaps there are as many as 100,000 seriously practicing Advaitin Sadhus who are candidates for Jivanmukti (?)

saidevo
18 July 2007, 05:47 AM
Namaste Sarabhanga.

It is heartening to hear from you that there are 'about 10,000,000 Sannyasins in India and Nepal', of whom about a lakh are in advanced stage.Surely, the total spiritual energy they generate, must be strong enough to withstand the force of Kali which could be the reason that we are still left with some wisdom and sanity in the world today.



The ancient Rishis were reincarnated numerous times, and most of them are supposed to reside in the intermediate regions rather than in Brahmaloka (which alone guarantees exemption from re-birth). Immortal (but not Jivanmukta) Munis, Siddhas, etc., retaining their perfected bodies, dwell in Bhuvarloka; Bhrigu and other imperishable Rishis and Saints dwell in Maharloka; Janarloka is inhabited by Brahma’s own sons, the Sanatkumara; and deified Vairagins reside in Taparloka; and all of them will suffer reincarnation.


This quote from the book The Hindu Dharma by Bansi Pandit talks about Agastya Muni residing in the vicinity of the Bhuloka (physical world).



Even though Swami Vivekănanda introduced and popularized the Hindu system of belief and philosophy in the North American Continent in 1893, the movement of Hindu Temples began and has gathered momentum only in the last quarter of this century. It is Lord Agastya, the pre-eminent sage now living in the astral world, who took the initiative to direct the establishment and growth of the New York Ganesha Temple and several other major temples in this land.

Lord Agastya when invoked by sincere devotees regularly through what is called Jîva Nădî or Live Nădî, communicates with His devotees in the form of letters. These sacred letters appear to the trained mediums only at the time of reading the sanctified ancient palmyara leaf scriptures. In August 1968, Dr. Alagappa Alagappan, a former U.N. Civil servant, was instructed to come and listen to the Nădî readings. On the first day, he was informed that Lord Ganesha would take an abode in a city, the name of which began with the letter "N." When asked to come on the following day, he was informed as to how this temple would develop deep and abiding ties with the ancient heritage in India. The third time he was summoned to come, he was instructed to take on the task of building the Ganesha temple.

Znanna
18 July 2007, 07:50 PM
Namaste,

I don't think the force of Kali can be resisted; doesn't the depiction of beheading imply that surrender is the only option? Or, is that too simplistic a notion coming from one (me) who is juvenile in understanding?


ZN

yajvan
13 May 2008, 05:40 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


To get a human body is a rare thing, make use of it.. You should never consider yourself weak or a fallen creature. Whatever may have happened up till now may be because you didn’t know, but now be careful ~ after getting a human body, if you don’t reach God, then you have sold a diamond at the price of spinach. Swami Brahmanand Saraswati, Shankarachara of Jyotir Math,

Lord Karttikaya ( Skanda) asks Avvaiyar ( a.k.a. Grandmother) a devottee of Ganesha, 4 questions, and the last one he asks "What is rare?"
The response: "Rare is a human birth, rarer still is a birth without deformity. Still rarer is a human birth interested in wisdom; one possessing charity and penence. How great it is (then) to do seva and pursue the path of Moksha.


Namaste,
One can not help to listen to all the deaths that have happened in the last week: ~100,000 in Myanmar by cyclone, 12,000 in China by earth quake and today 60 in India ( bombing).

It is amazing to me how many parish at one time e.g. the Twin towers in NY, NY.

Yet life continues. Each life had some purpose on this good earth, and each ended at the time that was right for that person...many weep about their loss, the family, friends. As this taking away comes swiftly.

Yet even with these large numbers lost , new humans enter this earth daily. If we take the numbers above 100,000 + 12,000 + 60 people in the last few days 112,060 people have physically left.

We have talked about how many births and deaths happen every day, every minute, every second.
The 2007 statistic for birth and deaths:
Number births per second = 4 [ 245 per minute ]
Number of deaths per second 1.8 [110 per minute ]

This suggests that there are 4-1.8 = 2.2 net new people added to this earth each second.
If we look at the number that have left, that is the 112,060, it will take 50,937 seconds to replace the bodies that have passed-on. This = 14.15 hours.
No one can replace that 'personality' that resided in that body that lived, yet it is a lesson in the making on how transitory this body is.

men may come and men may go by 'I' (aham) go on for ever...


pranams

Adhvagat
09 March 2011, 05:48 AM
Bringing back this thread since the topic is highly interesting.

Om Tat Sat

charlebs
02 April 2011, 06:41 PM
what I find curious is how the mahabharat says people who do wrong go to heaven before they go to hell.
you could argue that some just follow their purpose in life, even if it is in passion for ignorence, and devoid of any emotional value for others.
they are rewarded for a short time before they recieve their lessons.

but taking your own life is of course the biggest crime there is. I've had a vision of someone who did this and it was not pretty. I hope he is in heaven now because what I saw was pure horrible. to see his self hatred reflected in his own pit of dispair.
I read scientific proof that the conscience never ends, but only a few speak of hell. I read that hindu's actually experience the dogs on lord yama before being judged.
western people believe differently of course so they do not meet him. I believe heaven is always different for anyone who reaches a certain conclusion before death. Krishna also teaches that people who think of him at time of death come to his afterlife.

so what is the purpose of heaven for psychopaths? did they actually do something that was intended by the writer of our story? I also recall people who wish to sin as much as possible to learn from it for their next incarnation.

I do not believe in a satan. everyone is tested by the will of god, which I call Shiva. if you decieve yourself, you slowly murder yourself. Doesn't karma always work, in life and in after life?
I wouldn't worry too much of it, just feel confident that you made choices in your way of being powerless.

are you not truly enlightened if you finally stopped worrying about every little test and accidental mistake you make?
anything can inspire fear or anger or whatever emotion. after my fourth psychosis I became gnostic instead of agnostic. People still seem to fear me, but I do not mind. It's their world, and I only wish to inspire calmness.

what else can someone do? I am not a woman, so I do not need to attempt to free men from ego. I just try to comfort them that they just handled out of being powerless sometimes. everyone is prone to passion. so why not forgive demons and corrupted people.. they most likely thought they actually did the right thing.

do the demons in the lower planets not always see their God SeSha Naga to comfort them that they do not need to become atheistic? I was raised christian myself so I can imagine people would be very nervous about death if they truly believed their mind could cease to exist.
it's such a shame.

sorry if this went off topic. I just found it interesting. then I went again with my ideas of how life works.. :o

wundermonk
20 June 2011, 01:19 PM
Hello all:

Didnt want to create an altogether new thread as this thread seems to have done some groundwork already in respect to my questions which are:

(a)At the end of a cycle of the universe (creation, sustenance and destruction) what happens to the souls/Jivatmas?
(b)During a cycle of sustenance [as we are going through now] assume a soul attains moksha and gets released from the cycle of birth/death. Now, does that mean the number of souls on earth goes down?
(c)If answer to (b) is yes, then if ALL souls attain moksha, what happens next?

yajvan
20 June 2011, 02:23 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Hello all:

Didnt want to create an altogether new thread as this thread seems to have done some groundwork already in respect to my questions which are:

(a)At the end of a cycle of the universe (creation, sustenance and destruction) what happens to the souls/Jivatmas?
(b)During a cycle of sustenance [as we are going through now] assume a soul attains moksha and gets released from the cycle of birth/death. Now, does that mean the number of souls on earth goes down?
(c)If answer to (b) is yes, then if ALL souls attain moksha, what happens next?
The question in my mind is there mutiple souls ( a śāṁkhya view) or is there just one ultimate Soul ?

Many times we use the word jīva जीव to mean soul - yet it also means living, the principle of life , vital breath , and from this we think and offer the notion of a personal soul.

praṇām

Mana
20 June 2011, 03:51 PM
Namasté wondermonk

These are great questions, I would say that we should consider the very real possibility of an infinite amount of universes, if we are to imagine anything approaching the true number of souls on a universal scale. Making their count very difficult!

I ask myself what might happen when the number of souls who obtain moksha in a civilisation reaches a threshold. :)

Namasté Yajvan

I should like to think that there is one ultimate Soul, Purusha. Striving to realise itself through the expansion and contraction of our universe.

Breathing life into Prana by its very motion.

Cycling through a universal life and death, always evolving in circles yet never quite the same. Giving credence to those who see a likeness in its motion and dance.

How can we ever know?


Om Shanti.

smaranam
20 June 2011, 04:44 PM
Namaste Wundermonk,

I can only try a humble attempt at answering part of yr qns. Hope others (zillion times more knowledgable) will add and correct. I am sure this has been discussed before.

2 kinds of jivas - living entities
baddha - conditioned
siddha - liberated



(a)At the end of a cycle of the universe (creation, sustenance and destruction) what happens to the souls/Jivatmas?

4 kinds of pralay at level of time. This is concerning type 4 - mahApralay at the end of Lord BrahmA's life - for a universe.

At MahAPralay the jivas get absorbed into MahAVishNu and stay there in unmanifest state i.e. with no material koshas. The jivas in MahaVishNu have to be baddha jivas (conditioned) and their state at Mahapralay time will stay recorded so they can resume at consequent sarga-visarga (re-creation).

Ref : Shrimad Bhagavatam, Canto 1, 2, 3, 4, 11, 12 (sarga-visarga : primary and secondary creation ; pralay - dissolution )


Even at the time of mahapralaya these bodies exist in a subtle form through the continued existence in subtle form of karmas and other elements.. - Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur in purport to BG 2.28

A good witness of this is Shrimad Bhagvatam Canto 4 Chapter 28
SB 4.28.52 - 60+ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/sb/4/28/) - Supersoul in the form of a brAhmaN explains to a woman how she has forgotton that they were friends. It makes the process evident.


Srila Jiva Gosvami on Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54:
During the period of creation we live in the Manasa lake, but during Mahapralaya our home was without the upadhi in the form of material nature. The word sahasra parivatsaran is indicative of the great dissolution.
The meaning is that during the period of creation the Supersoul and the jiva live together in the heart like two birds, but during the time of dissolution the jiva lives within the Lord because everything is dissolved and they have no house made of material upadhis–the material body–at that time, antara vaukah.



(b)During a cycle of sustenance [as we are going through now] assume a soul attains moksha and gets released from the cycle of birth/death. Now, does that mean the number of souls on earth goes down?

Not necessarily, because while the liberated jivas are subtracted from the manifested set, into the respective spiritual realms they go to, a few handful of others may descend to bhu-lok realm from higher [material] lokas - like jana, tapa, mahar upto satyalok of BrahmA-Dev.

My understanding is that there is constant ascension-descension between higher and lower lokas of the material realm as karma-phal.

If your qn is about the sum-total of all [material] lokas and all universes, then yes.


(c)If answer to (b) is yes, then if ALL souls attain moksha, what happens next?

That will not happen.

It is not simply either earth or moksha. People physically on earth could also be in another realm.
1. There are several lokas in material realm mentioned above,
2. the eternal imperishable spiritual realms

Moksha is not one single spot or state. The liberated jivatma could be in one of several states -
- Golok
- Vaikuntha
- BrahmaJyoti etc.


1. KrushNa's devotees, servants who are "sent" to the material world for a purpose - very gladly perform their duty.

2. There is a concept of nitya-baddha jivas for all practical purposes perhaps like bacteria etc. Nitya means practically nitya. They keep going high and low in different species of creation. There will always be jivas with material desires.

3. There is a belief that some jivas who have been dormant or inactive in the BrahmaJyoti (not serving the Lord in paravyoma - the actual spiritual abodes such as Vaikuntha or Golok), not identifying with anything in particular (no individual ID), , may develop a desire to enjoy material worlds again as they are tatastha (marginal) shakti. So, they get into some consequent creation due to their own will. They are given a chance to awaken their remembrance of Parameshwar.

I look at it this way : "You are evergreen My dear, stay here"
"I am bored of being green all the time ! I want to be orange !"
"Alright my love, just wait till autumn is here"
And autumn did arrive, and these jiva-leaves of KrushNa-tree turn orange because they wanted to ... and fell off. Lord cannot force them to stay, He would help however, by bringing them in touch with saints. Moral of the story: Stay with Bhagvan, hang on to His Lotus Feet.

praNAm

yajvan
20 June 2011, 05:01 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Mana





I should like to think that there is one ultimate Soul, Purusha. Striving to realise itself through the expansion and contraction of our universe.

Breathing life into Prana by its very motion.

Cycling through a universal life and death, always evolving in circles yet never quite the same. Giving credence to those who see a likeness in its motion and dance.

How can we ever know?
Om Shanti.

I too am of the opinion of one Supreme Being/Soul and not multiple individual souls. I come to this conclusion from my studies, teachings, etc.

You mention 'How will we ever know ? ' We do have the apparatus within our own selves to know these ultimate truths. That is, it is not beyond our discovery.

praṇām

Jainarayan
20 June 2011, 05:48 PM
Namaste smaranam.

4 kinds of pralay at level of time. This is concerning type 4 - mahApralay at the end of Lord BrahmA's life - for a universe.

At MahAPralay the jivas get absorbed into MahAVishNu and stay there in unmanifest state i.e. with no material koshas. The jivas in MahaVishNu have to be baddha jivas (conditioned) and their state at Mahapralay time will stay recorded so they can resume at consequent sarga-visarga (re-creation).



Thanks for the answer. I'm glad someone asked the question, because I was wondering too. I'm going to venture to say that jivas are absorbed into MahaVishnu because He is the Preserver?

smaranam
20 June 2011, 05:57 PM
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.54
haḿsāv ahaḿ ca tvaḿ cārya
sakhāyau mānasāyanau
abhūtām antarā vaukaḥ
sahasra-parivatsarān

My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Mānasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.

smaranam
20 June 2011, 06:08 PM
I'm going to venture to say that jivas are absorbed into MahaVishnu because He is the Preserver?

Namaste, He is more than that. MahAVishNu is the 'sva-aMsha' expansion of the Supreme Lord KrushNa (or VishNu in VaikunTha) who lies down in the 'waters' to begin creation with Mahat tattva. From MahaVishNu come Garbhodakshayi Vishnu (per each Universe - It is from the navel of this VishNu that BrahmA for that universe is born. ) and Kshirodakshayi Vishnu (supersoul who accompanies us jivas) - which can be called the preserver Vishnu.
The Original Supreme Lord KrushNa stays untouched in paravyoma - spiritual world. This is why i said the jivas that stay absorbed in MahavishNu (Ramanuja's words - "in saMkuchit (condensed) subtle form"), are conditioned, bound jivas because otherwise they would be long gone into either the Lord's spiritual abode to serve Him or be silent in His effugence (BrahmaJyoti).

This is VaishNav siddhanta - i suppose you guessed. It is not a short story. If you are interested, must read Shrimad Bhagavatam from the beginning sequentially. But before that Bhagavad Gita must be read - is what we are told. If one is interested in the VaishNav siddhanta then better to read Gita by a VaishNav acharya.

praNAm

Jainarayan
20 June 2011, 06:19 PM
For now this explanation will suffice. I'm absorbing a lot these days. ;)

yajvan
20 June 2011, 07:38 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Another view is this whole creation is expansion and contraction. The notion of dissolution is = to absorption and this is = to the idea
called unmeṣa and nimeṣa.
This unmeṣa is the emergence of the total creation and nimeṣa is the reabsorption. Note I choose not to use the word destruction as I am not fond of that word, as it is ( IMHO) a poor depiction of what occurs. This is not from direct personal experience mind you :) , but from how the wise describe these words.

From a symbolism point of view it would be considered the opening and closing of śiva's eyes.

unmeṣa is defined as the act of opening the eyes , looking at; it is also defined as coming forth ,
blossoming, hence the association with creation.
nimeṣa is defined as shutting of the eyeAnd who is doing this ? Umeśa or umā 's Lord i.e. śiva

praṇām

wundermonk
21 June 2011, 01:35 AM
Thanks all for the insightful replies...Most grateful.

Jainarayan
21 June 2011, 11:17 AM
I've been thinking about something. Instead of starting another thread, I thought I'd put it here because I think it's related.

After we leave this life and spend time in either Svarga or Naraka, or if the greatest thing happens that we attain moksha, will we see or know or perceive those beings who've been in our lives? I know that we could each live thousands or millions of lives, and subsequently know billions or trillions of other beings.

For example, people believe there is a place called Rainbow Bridge where animals who've died go to be rejuvenated, cured of their diseases and injuries and live in peace, waiting for their friends. I think it's a version or western interpretation of Svarga. Will we all know each other, or would that constitute attachment that is not a good thing?

If we attain moksha, I'd think that we'd know all that the Supreme One knows, but I wonder about the time before that. Is there anything in Scripture on this, as I know no one is able to report on it personally.

Or is this a stupid and nonsensical question? :(

yajvan
21 June 2011, 12:06 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



After we leave this life and spend time in either Svarga or Naraka, or if the greatest thing happens that we attain moksha, will we see or know or perceive those beings who've been in our lives? I know that we could each live thousands or millions of lives, and subsequently know billions or trillions of other beings.


Your question, as it seems to me , is predicated upon what ever goes or comes ( of us) keeps the same personality. To live millions of lifes, are you perhaps suggesting that the same ~personality~ goes from body to body?

This may perhaps rock the boat , but consider the following...

If we look to the the praśna upaniṣad (2.7) it give us the insight of who comes and goes:
O, prāṇa as prajāpati you move within the wombs; you yourself are born repeatedly. These creatures in each of whom you dwell along with prāṇas brings offerings to you.


Note in this verse and throught the praśna upaniṣad prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman. Now the point I relish is prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman = 'I'. Pure I = pure consciousness = cetana.


So as we go from body to body, who is coming and going?

praṇām

Jainarayan
21 June 2011, 12:24 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Your question, as it seems to me , is predicated upon what ever goes or comes ( of us) keeps the same personality. To live millions of lifes are you suggesting that the same ~personality~ goes from body to body?

Hmm... I guess I didn't think it through before writing. I'm sure we don't keep the same personalities from body to body, but since our souls are unchanging, and they are part of the Whole, maybe I'm answering my own question.

Maybe our souls do perceive each other, similar to my body knowing its parts, i.e., my heart knows where to send blood; my brain knows where to send nerve signals.




This may perhaps rock the boat , but consider the following...



If we look to the the praśna upaniṣad (2.7) it give us the insight of who comes and goes:
O, prāṇa as prajāpati you move within the wombs; you yourself are born repeatedly. These creatures in each of whom you dwell along with prāṇas brings offerings to you.


Note in this verse and throught the praśna upaniṣad prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman. Now the point I relish is prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman = 'I'. Pure I = pure consciousness = cetana.


So as we go from body to body, who is coming and going?

praṇām


Yes, I think that answers the question. Thank you. :)