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yajvan
23 July 2007, 04:11 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste akshitama ( one who is imperishable)

There is much talk in Indian society on who is acceptable / creditable to acquire this knowledge of Brahman. As I read the Upanishads, this separation of people ( varna) into classes for the sake of learning Brahman does not seem to be arsa-jnana or the wisdom of the rishi's. One good example is from the Chandogya Upanishad ( my favorite) and the experience of Satyakama ( one desiring satyam, lover of Truth). Chandogya Upanishad (4.4.1)

Satyakama decides it's time to approach a guru for more knowledge and advance his learning. Before doing so he will be asked about his lineage. To this he goes to his mother, Jabala, to find out the particulars of his birth.

Jabala says Satyakama, I do not know who you father is. As a maid servant (not dasi) I went from house to house. Hence I do not know your gotra (lineage), nor your correct father. Hence when you announce yourself the best you can say is you are Satyakama Jabala.

So, you can see the pickle Satyakama sees. Yet he remains innocent about it, as did his mother with her straightforward answer to him. With his intention, he approaches the gurukulam and Gautama, the guru of the ashram and says, Sir, I wish to live as brahmacharin under you.

Obviously, Gautama asks of his lineage. Satykama is straightforward and says he does not know and explains his mother's maid servant conditions. He finishes by saying, Revered Sir, can I , Satyakama Jabala, being such, may I approach you as a sisya (a student)?

Gautama says, non other then a brahmana can say as you have. You did not deviate from the truth. Bring the samit (or the fuel) for the yajya.

Gautama accepts him based on his straightforwardness and truthfulness.
Brahmana's alone, by convention, had the right to learn the Veda's. Yet to the straightforward and truthful, varna should not be a barrier.

A wonderful story continues as how Satyakama learns various knowledge and lessons from his environment on a trip that his guru sends home on. Caring for 400 cows that are lean and weak. Satyakama said I will not return until there is 1000 cows. Really worth the read.

This 400 and 1000 has significance and was not picked randomly by the rishi of this Upanishad. More if there is interest.

pranams,

mirabai
23 July 2007, 08:40 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

Thank you for the story and please do continue. I read about Satyakama some time ago and loved it. "Listening" as you tell it is even better than the reading.

Hari Om

MysticalGypsi
23 July 2007, 08:57 PM
Yes, obviously, anyone can learn and experience the spiritual. Any criteria or hoops to jump through are man-made, not Divine. Very nice illustration of this.

willie
23 July 2007, 09:33 PM
Too bad that there was no dna testing back then. If there were his mother could have used the law to find out who the father was and answered him. Plus she may have picked up some long over due child support payments. This story does not cast the plight of women in a very good light, but maybe that was what the story was really about , in the first place?

mirabai
23 July 2007, 10:17 PM
Too bad that there was no dna testing back then. If there were his mother could have used the law to find out who the father was and answered him. Plus she may have picked up some long over due child support payments. This story does not cast the plight of women in a very good light, but maybe that was what the story was really about , in the first place?

Namaste Willie,
Interesting, I did not see it that way. I always saw the story as putting Jabala in a very good light. Because in spite of her plight and the condition of her life, she was not so egoistic as to lie or make up excuses or hide the facts from her son. We only control in life whether or not we choose to do right or wrong, but the outcome ultimately is out of our hands. Story did not say whether she was at fault for not knowing the father of her child but illuminated the good moral values she possessed, so I just don't see where is the bad light?
Things in life happen and we often don't know why. Jabala revealed a good character by not hiding it or lying. She instructed him to say the truth. It was because of Jabala's straightforwardness and honesty that Satyakama innocently revealed the condition of his lineage to Gautama, and becayse of this honesty he was welcomed at the ashram. Gautama saw in him the character of a true Brahmana.
Can you not see these admirable qualities of Jabala?

yajvan
23 July 2007, 10:24 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

Thank you for the story and please do continue. I read about Satyakama some time ago and loved it. "Listening" as you tell it is even better than the reading. Hari Om

Namaste,

Continuing Satyakama's tour…
We need to set the stage a bit to continue the story. From the last post Sayakama was given 400 cows, and will not return until there is 1,000. What is the significance of this?

This notion of 4 100's , or 400 and 10 100's, or 1,000 come to play as a lesson here in Chandogya Upanishad and the experiences of Satyakama.

The 'wisdom' is in the notion of 4 and 10. The notion of the teaching to look to things as an instrument that will serve to teach and adore Brahman. That is, this Brahman has particular aspects one may adore/admire and universal aspects.

So in the valli prior to Satyakama's meeting with his Guru, Guatama, this notion of catuspada (some write chatupada) is setup…that is, Brahman is concieved of as four footed, or a having 1/4ths. What are these 4 ? It is prana, this life force, the eyes form another, the ears, and vak, that of speech. We are in the 'particular' with this example.

Now think of the cows for a momment… how may 4 footed ones are there ? There a 4 hundred. The message of Brahman found in the particulars is illustrated. A beautiful sanketa (symbol) of the wise… Recall the Upanishads is a discussion of Brahman, of Vedanta, so the symbols are there to help one understand how the particular is also the universal, the Fullness or Bhuma.

This 4 pada approach is also explained in the Mandukya Upanishad as AUM having 4 quarters. Yet people count 3... A - U - M… where is the 4th? The 4th is that of perfect slience, amatra, without measure, turiya, the 4th. Such is the wisdom of the rishi's that live in Brahman. Back to the story!

And what of this 1,000 what is the significance here? That of this number 10. This 10 is 1+ 0. One (1) is the fullness of the relative fiiled of life. If I were talking to a Samkayan this would be called Prakriti. And the 0 is that fullness of the Absolute. for the Sankayan this is Purusha. for the Vedantin it may be seen aksara, the Imprerishable.

If one was following Krsna, He would be the manifestion of this Fullness. He would be viewed as akshitam + achyutam + pranasamshitam or Imperishable + Unchangagble + sublter then Prana. Now why would I bring up Krsna here? Because of the greatness of this Chandogya Upanishad. It is one of the earliest Upanishads that mentions the son of Devaki, Krsna called out in Section 3.17.6. It begins to disuss the fullness of His personality.

So this fullness is represented by 10. And sometimes we even hear the wise call out stretching beyond 10 fingers. That the Greatness or Fullness of Brahman is even beyond this Infinity of 10. Where do we hear of this?
Rig Veda mantra (10.90.1)
A thousand heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet,
On every side , pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

We intuitively know sahasrasirsha - a thousand heads, means the Purusa is everywhere, all pervading , ubiquitous. This is supported by saying sarvatah pani-padam - His hands and feet (too) are everywhere.

Now when we come to 'He fill the space 10 fingers wide' , this is just as profound as all pervading too. How so? We know Purusha is from He who resides in the city ( puri). We ,our bodies, are considered the city or puri. [Recall from the conversation above on 1/4ths ? It is here in puri, the particular, too!]

He resides there (puri) as this SELF. But 'He fills 10 fingers wide (dasangulam) ' what of that? Lets put a few things together. This puri , this city of ours is said to have 9 gates. And He is known as the SELF, the atman. If we take the 9 gates of our body, + the Atman = 10. This is another dimension ,10, that is described in this sukta and points to Him as the number 10, as Purusa. Dasamas tvam asi.

The way the risi's magnify this greatness is by multiples of this 10. That is, 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 all point to the fullness of this Being based upon 1 + 0 , reviewed above.

Therefore, what Satyakama is saying to his guru , I will retrun to you , after living in the world of 4's and learning in the 4's, how it relates to the fullness of 10 ... the integration of 4's to 10's to the Fullness of Brahman, a holistic One.

From here now we can continue Satyakama's journey. Once a few read this part, and perhaps poked around a bit with ideas, comments , questions and the like, we will continue Satyakama's yatra.

pranams,

Agnideva
24 July 2007, 10:11 AM
Namaste Yajvan,


There is much talk in Indian society on who is acceptable / creditable to acquire this knowledge of Brahman. As I read the Upanishads, this separation of people (varna) into classes for the sake of learning Brahman does not seem to be arsa-jnana or the wisdom of the rishi's.
Yes, I agree with you here. Vedic education, initiation and spirituality should be available to all members of the human race. There is no Dharma in denying people Brahmajnana. The above story you shared here with us illustrates that most beautifully. Thank you.

OM Shanti,
A.

satay
24 July 2007, 11:26 AM
This story does not cast the plight of women in a very good light, but maybe that was what the story was really about , in the first place?

No willie, it wasn't. Pls reread...

yajvan
24 July 2007, 07:26 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,


We continue the journey with Satyakama.

Satyakama's attention is to tending to the 400 cows in the forest. One day a bull from the herd calls to him and said dear boy we have increased to 1,000 heads, and you may take us home ( to the teacher/guru/masters house or acharya-kulam).

The Bull says to Satyakama, shall I teach you of 1/4th of Brahman? Satyakama says with respect, please do teach me revered sir. So begins the teaching of 4's from Nature. You will see in each lesson and offering to Satyakama it is Nature that is offering this to him.

The Bull begins and gives 4 kala's or divisions.
The East is one kala and direction (dik) , the West another, the South another and the West one more. Having these 4, thus you have 1/4th of Brahman, known as prakasavan or the radiant. The Bull instructs Satyakama that one who adores this 1/4th of Brahman as prakasavan or the radiant, knowing its 4 parts, becomes prakasavan themselves.

The Bull is part of Satyakama's day-to-day life and he is teaching him of Brahman. Like that, we can find Brahman within our daily life. He teaches of the 4 directions, Yet what is the meaning? That of extensiveness, of akasha, as all directions are infinite in space and a quality of Brahman, Infinite. The particular ( as we mentioned in post 1 of this story) also turns out to be the universal. A direction 1/4th, is infinite in magnitude as akasha goes on for ever, as Brahman. And within this space all the galaxies, solar systems and worlds, from the sub-atomic to the universal are held. All held , all expressions of Brahman.

The Bull then says, Agni (fire tattva) will now instruct you. On the next evening, out side of his guru's kulam, Satyakama kindled a fire and sat facing the east.
Agni called to him and said shall I teach you 1/4th of Brahman? and to that , yes revered sir, said Satyakama. Agni said, the earth (prthivi) is one kala (or division) the mid-region or antariksam ( of space), is another; heaven is the 3rd and the ocean is the 4th. Having these 4 kala's of Brahman is known as anantavan, or the Endless, or Infinite.

Agni continues and say he who adores this 1/4th of Brahman as Endless, Infinite, knowing it having these 4 kala's becomes Endless him/her-self. Brahman as it manifests, becomes all these worlds found on the material (prthivi), the mid region, heaven and ocean ( as apa or water tattva has multiple meanings, yet is considered the cornerstone of life). Brahman's manifestations are Endless, anantavan, as It manifests, creates again and again.

We see this manifest in our own creativity, ideas, other's ideas, and in society. We see this in deep space as the universe continues to expand , so says astrophysics. We also see this play-out at the atomic particle level of quantum theory where new particles come and go. [ I am no scientist, yet see this information on television, the internet, NASA, etc.]

There are two more from nature that are introduced to Satyakama - the swan (hamsa) who will inform him of jyotisman ( the luminous) and the water-diving bird (madguste). The diver-bird will give Satyakama the 4th's of ayatanavan ( a person's field of operation, our base, our constitution).

Lets leave those two for a new post, so we do not get too lengthly in one reading.

pranams,

willie
24 July 2007, 09:51 PM
The story goes that she worked as a maid servant and went from house to house, so she had no idea who the boy's father was.

This implies the she must have went through a lot of men, either to keep some type employment, liked the company of men , or perhaps picked up some extra money in that way. But because she could not remember the boy's fathers name that there must have been a number of men envolved. Now because not mention of a report of a forced act was made , that could emply that such things were common place to the point of being no big deal , at that time. Maybe the is why the guru was not too concerned about it.

yajvan
25 July 2007, 03:56 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~~

Namaste

Keeping with the wisdom of 4th's, this is the 4th pada (foot) posting on Satyakama's journey.

For this final post Satyakama is introduced to hamsa and madguste. The swan (hamsa) informs him of jyotisman ( the luminous). The water-diving bird (madguste),will give Satyakama the 4th's of ayatanavan (a person's field of operation, our foundation, our constitution).

Hamsa tells Satyakama of the 1/4th's - he says fire (Agni) is one kala or division, the sun or Surya is another, Chandra the moon is the 3rd and lightening is another. Having four kala (divisions) is 1/4th of Brahman known as jyotisman, the Luminous. One who adores this 1/4th of Brahman as jyotisman, knowing it as these 4 kala's becomes Luminous in this world; He/She wins the luminous worlds as well.

Madguste (the diver-bird of water) is introduced by Hamsa. The next evening, after making a fire, Madguse flys down and says shall I teach you of the next 1/4th of Brahman? Satyakama says please do.

Madguste says Prana is one kala of Brahman, the eye is another, the ear another and the mind is yet one more. Having these, the 1/4th of Brahman is known as ayatanavan, the body's field or basis of operation. One who adores Brahman as ayatanavan, having these four parts, becomes ayatanavan in this world and wins all the worlds as his/her abode as well.

Upon this last instruction Satyakama and the herd arrive at Gautama's home. Gautama-ji says to him, you shine like a Brahmavit ( a knower of Brahman), who did teach you? Satyakama responds, only beings other then humans [ referring to the encounters of the bull, hamsa, agni and madguste]. Satyakama says, it is my desire that you should teach me yourself. The wisdom taught by the master alone proves worthwhile.

Gautama went on to teach Satyakama the very thing he already learnt, nothing was left out, nothing was left out ( this was how the valli ended).

Checking the correctness given by nature, by ones experiences needs confirmation. This is what was given to Satyakama by Gautama.

As we look to the four 1/4th's of Brahman we have:
The Radiant - prakasavan : East, West, North, and South
The Endless - anantavan : earth, mid-region, heaven and ocean
The Luminous - jyotisman: Agni, Surya, Chandra and Lightening (Vajr)
The Body's Operation - ayatanavan: Prana, eye, ear, and mind


When I view this overall experience of Satyakama's introduction to Brahman it offers the completeness of Brahman. Brahman as all 4 directions, the infinity, limitlessness of Brahman. That of Brahman as akasha, providing the space for all things to exist in. This akasha is both physical and mental. The mental we have consciousness and in its essence it is effulgent, luminous and radiant.

When Brahman manifests It brings all the worlds, from material ( earth) to the spiritual (heaven) and provides the consciousness to fulfill it. It offers the tattvas of Agni (energy), apa (fluid / water principle, oceans), and prthvi (earth or matter) to create life.

As we look to these things that are macroscopic , we find Brahman in the particular, in us, with ayatanavan. Prana and life force, eyes, ears, and mind. With this story, the rishi takes us from the particulars ( the 1/4th's ) to the universal, the Fullness of 1+0 or 10. That fullness of Brahman. The wisdom that is offered by the rishi is sarvam kaahvidam brahma, All this is indeed Brahman.


I find it of great interest that these kala's add up to 16 or sodashi. That is, 4 vidya's X 4 one-forth's offered = 16 or sodashi. This is a common theme of 4th's and sodashi in Sanatana Dharm, found in the Upanishads. If you care to look further regarding this sodashi, please consider this HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1075 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1075)

pranams,

Nuno Matos
26 July 2007, 09:13 AM
Namaste

From the Rig-Veda; X, xc: The Sacrifice of Primal Man


With sacrifice the gods
Made sacrifice to sacrifice:
These were the first religious rites (dharma),
To the firmament these powers went up
Where dwell the ancient Sadhya gods.

TatTvamAsi
21 January 2008, 01:57 PM
I believe most people have a big misconception about this topic. Brahmajnana, or knowledge of the Brahman, is meant for one who is ready to accept & understand this supreme knowledge. What this essentially means is that those who are spiritually ready to receive the knowledge may do so. It happened to be that Brahmins, because of their noble birth (and hopefully deeds/lifestyle), were the most ready to receive this Brahmajnana.

The caste system arose to identify the strengths of each group of people and make the community as a whole stronger. It was not divisive in nature but due to the nature of man, it turned out to be that way later in practice; however not in the days of yore. It recognized people's predispositions and strengths; hence allocating a set of duties to each group.

The Brahmins were supposed to be the most spiritually evolved and therefore ready to receive the supreme knowledge. Quoting exceptions, as done earlier, does not really make sense or prove anything. The Vedas were Sruti for this very reason; that those not initiated or ready should NOT read or attempt to learn the supreme knowledge. Furthermore, as Sri Aurobindo states in the "Secret of the Veda", the message of the Vedas can be interpreted in two ways; one is the seemingly barbarous hymns of ritual sacrifice and the other of the loftiest philosophical principles the human mind can grasp. Therefore, a person who is not ready to receive the knowledge will not get the true message and meaning of the Vedas.

Alas it is Kali Yuga and every Tom, Dick, and Harry has tried to not only read and decipher the Vedas & the Upanishads, but has pontificated on them as if they are an authority on the subject!

An analogy I can think of is this:

I love Physics. In fact, my degree is in Physics. Say I want to continue to grad school in Mathematical Physics @ MIT and decide to write to them saying so. If I've demonstrated my capabilities and met their standards then I should be given admission and taken in as a student. This is because my background is in Physics! If I was a History Major (no offense to History majors ;)) and decided to apply for the Ph.D program in Mathematical Physics @ MIT and they didn't accept me, well, too bad for me. My disposition towards the subject as a History Major and even aptitude may not be up to par according to their standards. That is NOT discrimination! This is the SAME THING for acquiring the knowledge of the Brahman! However, that takes several lifetimes whereas for the Ph.D program in Mathematical Physics @ MIT may take a few years of concentrated study to master!

The caste sytem is the most maligned aspect of Hindu society and the evil commie, christian, muslim proponents in India & abroad are forever slandering Hinduism because of it. Millions of people have been converted due to this misconception.

Long story short, I firmly believe, that only initiated (Dwija) Brahmins who show certain aptitude and inclination towards the knowledge of the Supreme should be allowed to learn from a respectable and learned Guru.

Having said that, there are many so called Brahmins who lead a very un-Brahminical lifestyle and many non-Brahmins who lead an austere life. So anyone who is ready to receive the supreme knowledge should be able to however I am not so sure how one would test that.

Subham.

yajvan
21 January 2008, 02:40 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Long story short, I firmly believe, that only initiated (Dwija) Brahmins who show certain aptitude and inclination towards the knowledge of the Supreme should be allowed to learn from a respectable and learned Guru.

Having said that, there are many so called Brahmins who lead a very un-Brahminical lifestyle and many non-Brahmins who lead an austere life. So anyone who is ready to receive the supreme knowledge should be able to however I am not so sure how one would test that.

Subham.

Namaste Subham ( or do you prefer tattvamAsi?)
thank you for your post.. let me ask your opinion here. When you say Brahmins... are you suggesting only the Brahmin by birth by DNA, or the Brahmin identified by thoughts, deeds and actions?

As we find those blessed souls in the Chandogya Upanishad that came under guru to study that where not of Brahmin birth, in fact one did not know his lineage at all, Satyakama, but became acarya-kula-vasa ( or living with ones Master).

Could it be you are suggesting a few can study the vedas, but perhaps all are open to svārājya¹, becoming possessed of the SELF? And leaving just the learning of the vedas to the twice born?

What are your thoughts on this matter?

pranams

1. svārājya - identification with the self-effulgent , state of self-effulgence; independent rule ,sovereignty

TatTvamAsi
21 January 2008, 07:20 PM
When you say Brahmins... are you suggesting only the Brahmin by birth by DNA, or the Brahmin identified by thoughts, deeds and actions?


Good question. I myself have wondered what truly makes one a 'Brahmin' or if we can ever attribute one single quality to a person to label him a 'Brahmin'. It seems to be a conundrum in and of itself because the obvious answer would first be 'by birth', one's varna is decided. However, in the Gita, Krishna restates that through character (guna) and action (karma), one can transmigrate from one varna to another. When looking at this statement carefully, or should I just say my interpretation of this statement is, one can infer that by birth one's varna is a given, however that through 'good' action and character, they can become a 'Brahmin' in the real sense of the word even if they are of 'lower' birth. This is the crux of it in my opinion. Therefore, one's birth determines one's varna intially; however one's actions and character in life truly determines whether they are "Arya" or not.



Could it be you are suggesting a few can study the vedas, but perhaps all are open to svārājya¹, becoming possessed of the SELF? And leaving just the learning of the vedas to the twice born?

What are your thoughts on this matter?

pranams

1. svārājya - identification with the self-effulgent , state of self-effulgence; independent rule ,sovereignty

That is exactly what I'm suggesting! There is no distinction when it comes to self-realization but those who are seemingly ready to 'receive' the knowledge of the Brahman must be initiated.

I like to remember the story of the sage Uttanka who chastises a chandala (untouchable) when asked if he would like to drink 'water' (in this case Indra bringing Amrit in the form of a mleccha) from his bowl and when rebuked, Krishna himself appears to Uttanka and tells him that he is not yet ready to receive Amrit (loosely can be translated as 'knowledge of the Supreme') as he still distinguishes people as Brahmin, chandala etc. and does not see that the Supreme Self is ONE.

I just feel sad that people, mostly westerners and pseudo secular Indians (Hindus) themselves, tend to eschew societal practices such as the Caste System due to the misinterpretation and blatant slander of Sanathana Dharma without fully understanding its intended purpose, reason, and ultimately tradition. Modern rationalism is in some ways much more dangerous and harmful than the false words of an uneducated peasant.

What are your thoughts on the effects of the Varnashrama Dharma (Caste System) in modern India?

Subham.

yajvan
22 January 2008, 12:47 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

What are your thoughts on the effects of the Varnashrama Dharma (Caste System) in modern India?

Subham.

Namaste,
I think that the vedic system has merit and is for ones spiritual development.
Today it seems to me that this system is not being applied to its fullest and there is much to do about jātis¹.

I am of the opinion that ones position is based upon their actions and not DNA. That this caste approach of today has become an anchor vs. a sail to ones spiritual development. This is my opinion, and seen from afar. Since I do not reside in India my opinion can be blemished by observations and not actual experience...

That said, it seems rational to me that one can can be considered a
brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, or sudra based upon ones behaviors. I see this in the Upanishads, I see this in the Mahabharata e.g. Ashvattama, was the son of a powerful brahmana, but adopted the role of a warrior (kshatriya) and fought at Kurukshetra; He was admonished by Krsna as you know for not keeping within the moral code of the kshatriya.
Vishvamitra, who was born in a kshatriya family but became brahma-rsi.

And studing the vedas I believe is a boon, if one has the propensity for this. I think of nothing more enjoyable then reading the Upanishads.

Yet achieving kevalya is for all... how could it not be if ones essential nature is svārājya?
This teaching (of reaching the SELF) should be given without hesitation to those whose mind is free from doubts, to spiritual heroes, to those whose heart is open, and to those that are devoted to the Master
... Vijnana Bhairava tantra, karika 157 to 159.

pranams

1. jātis ( जाति )- birth , production; position assigned by birth , rank , caste , family , race , lineage;
1a. Caste - The term caste comes from the Spanish and Portugueste word "casta" which means "race", "lineage", "breed". so says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste#Anthropological

syvedi40
18 February 2008, 12:17 AM
Dear Willie,

The Upanisads are not meant for explaining the social and economic conditions. The primary purpose is to teach higher philosophies of how to elevate one from mundane day to day activities, morals etc. The incidents are narrated in a cryptic way with a definite purpose that one should not be led astray on these things. In the days of Upanisad, the teaching is done orally when the pupil would have ample scope to understand or ignore the aspects talked about by you.

Hence it would not be correct to pass a judgement on the social conditions which are tens of thousands of years away from us!

izi
12 January 2009, 10:33 AM
So when the local alien life decides to finally show up which caste will they be put into? Untouchable? **** there goes the anal probes

Humans have their heads stuck up their asses, as far as history has been remembered...so-called Hindus have always tried to be better than the standard of self-righteousness so I fail to see how this one lousy meme has become so prominent in India, especially - since the place is actually considered to be a very dirty and poverty stricken nation by most individuals living in the United States - obviously this caste system is not working and never really did work outside of a small village! We can't let holy books ruin our lives, obviously there are great intelligences out there - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

Nothing's perfect.

I live in Memphis, Tennessee, USA, it is the birthplace of the civil rights movement. There was the reflection of caste in the white/black discrimination laws. After the movement occurred the rest of the US caught on and never looked back on its racist past, however something congealed here in Memphis itself that is a little ugly to see - whites moved out of Memphis causing a rise in the black percentage of the population. Since blacks at the time were mostly all poor and rather still persecuted, when the whites took away the wealth it set the city back a few decades and is just now rising again to its former splendor. The fact of the matter is it's now run by blacks and is just as nice as its previous state, however it goes to show you that United We Stand, Divided We Fall is really not just another soundbyte - it is the quality by which we can judge whether a nation or movement will fail or rise to stardom.

The universe has its own agenda though, that's for sure...what will survive of Hinduism will survive only because it is allowed. I believe we can all take some part in that but ultimately it is out of our hands, because some dummies will never learn until they die a few thousand times...

yajvan
12 January 2009, 06:22 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté


Nothing's perfect.
I see your point Naomi. No thing is perfect, yet if we talk of virūpākṣāya we have an interesting conversation perhaps.
Virūpākṣāya is He who is without (vi) form (rūpa) or shape, and is eternal (akṣāya). Since He/She is not a thing, then perfection is possible.


Now some say it a bit differently. They say He is spotless, as rūpa or form suggests a color, and vi is opposite, so without a color; and akṣāya as we just mentioned means undecaying or eternal. Hence virūpākṣāya is spotless, without a blemish, without decay, and hence eternal, perfect.

And who is virūpākṣāya ? Maheśvara - maheśvarāya महेश्वराय is the combination of maha मह or great, mightly, strong, abundant + īśvara ईश्वर which Lord, Supreme Being. Hence maheśvarāya is the Great and Mighty Lord , some call Śiva others Śrī Devī, others prefer Śrī Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa, Bhairava, etc.


Said another way: ekam sad; vipra bahudha vadanti - truth is One (Being) , sages call it variously... rig veda I.164.46, ṛṣi dīrghatamas

praṇām

izi
19 January 2009, 10:04 PM
"the name that can be named is not the eternal name" or tao, whichever which....

that leaves us with a huge blank but ok, so what's new with mankind Acceptance of our own ignorance? Yeah I guess. :confused:

I think it's this way for a reason...whatever there is doesn't want us to fully catch up, leading me to believe we're a process of some kind rather than actual *things* or *beings*. The vedas recite this as well - that we are just temporal things not meant to survive anything real (in the long run) yet in the interim there is the illusion of *lives*, selfishness and being...hmm.

TatTvamAsi
28 January 2009, 10:35 PM
So when the local alien life decides to finally show up which caste will they be put into? Untouchable? **** there goes the anal probes

Humans have their heads stuck up their asses, as far as history has been remembered...so-called Hindus have always tried to be better than the standard of self-righteousness so I fail to see how this one lousy meme has become so prominent in India, especially - since the place is actually considered to be a very dirty and poverty stricken nation by most individuals living in the United States - obviously this caste system is not working and never really did work outside of a small village! We can't let holy books ruin our lives, obviously there are great intelligences out there - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

Nothing's perfect.

I live in Memphis, Tennessee, USA, it is the birthplace of the civil rights movement. There was the reflection of caste in the white/black discrimination laws. After the movement occurred the rest of the US caught on and never looked back on its racist past, however something congealed here in Memphis itself that is a little ugly to see - whites moved out of Memphis causing a rise in the black percentage of the population. Since blacks at the time were mostly all poor and rather still persecuted, when the whites took away the wealth it set the city back a few decades and is just now rising again to its former splendor. The fact of the matter is it's now run by blacks and is just as nice as its previous state, however it goes to show you that United We Stand, Divided We Fall is really not just another soundbyte - it is the quality by which we can judge whether a nation or movement will fail or rise to stardom.

The universe has its own agenda though, that's for sure...what will survive of Hinduism will survive only because it is allowed. I believe we can all take some part in that but ultimately it is out of our hands, because some dummies will never learn until they die a few thousand times...

"Most individuals in the United States" are untouchables as well. Did you know that? What is your ancestry? Trace it far back and you will see that most of these people in the US have descended from the dregs of Europe; barbarians and murderers.

Secondly, you have no clue about the 'caste system' or Varnashrama Dharma. It is ONLY because of Varnashrama Dharma, which Gandhi (IMO) supported, that Hinduism still exists whereas ALL other ancient civilizations have vanished! It will NEVER be destroyed and it is the backbone of India.

Furthermore, to compare Varnashrama Dharma to the movement of the blacks in the US is blasphemous. VD is NOT based on skin color! If it was, Michael Jackson would be the greatest Aryan (noble person) on the planet! :D He is certainly not and neither is any westerner! I have mentioned several times that an Aryan is one of NOBLE qualities and background! 100% of westerners are untouchables! Did you know that? Too bad eurocentric idiots, I mean 'scholars' thought that the caste system arose through a fantasy they made up called Aryan Invasion Theory where fair-skinned people (hahah) subjugated dark-skinned people!

VD has been beaten to death at HDF so do some research before blabbering something!

And to the respected members of HDF (Yajvan, Atanu, Satay, Saidevo et al.) I just wanted to let you know I am SICK & TIRED of these silly westerners coming on here and just slandering India and her civilization; past & present. It is time WE HINDUS unite and fight back (through education and dialogue ;)).

atanu
29 January 2009, 05:26 AM
We can't let holy books ruin our lives, obviously there are great intelligences out there - for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

Nothing's perfect.

Namaste Naomi,

I relish your angrezi and also your wisdom. Please allow me to state a few points for your consideration. This is my understanding and no one needs to accept these.

Caste as 'water tight birth determined class' and 'the hierarchy' is wrong and possibly has history of motivated imposition. Such differences in society are exploited everywhere and it is not specific to Hinduism.

Varna, OTOH, states a fact that individuals are born for different functions, almost similarly as a chair and a table have different functions though both are made of wood. The carpenter decided on which wood will be chair and which wood will be table.

Hinduism teaches that Brahman is the material as well as the causative. Also, the created beings cannot be truly different from the beginning material -- that is Brahman. There is no cause for any social agony based on the knowledge of varna.

The agony comes from exploitation and exploitation is not due to varna but due to inherent cruel tinge in us.



...what will survive of Hinduism will survive only because it is allowed. I believe we can all take some part in that but ultimately it is out of our hands, because some dummies will never learn until they die a few thousand times...

That is true. What is true will ever be allowed.


- for example, Krsna didn't plop out of the sky as a scroll, he was born to a woman and I would prefer to take my advice from modern man on this subject rather than dusty texts that will fall apart - their source is far more appealing to me at this point.

Again what you say is reasonable but not fully.

Many wise men take their dose of wisdom from Gita. What I say here is drawn from your statement that "what will survive will survive".

Best Wishes.

Om

saidevo
29 January 2009, 07:47 AM
Namaste participants.

I think TatTvamAsi's outburst against Naomi Ningishzidda's earlier post that smacked of ignorance expressed in vulgar language has some valid points. As TTA has rightly pointed out:

• the Hindu varNa and caste system as it was created, as it existed and exists now is a very complex and emotional subject that is certainly beyond the grasp of a westerner, specially when he/she refuses to admit that any prejudicial treatment among the Indian castes is the same as that prevailing in the class-conscious West.

• Unlike the ancient Hindu civilization and religion, the origin and strife for supremacy of most Western civilizations and the western religions is certainly steeped in barbarism and blood. Even in the pre-European, ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece and Rome, slavery of humans was practiced, which was never the case in the Hindu civilization.

• The Blacks may be a liberated lot today in the U.S. with their representative at the Presidetial helm, but they are still portrayed in the Hollywood movies as vulgar, barbaric and with criminal propensities more than their White counterparts. The ghetto they live are as dirty and filty as the huts and its surroundings in India. Although many Blacks have made it to good positions in the society and politics, the others among them certainly don't lead a life that is on pair with that of their White counterparts. This is my impression, which I think is mostly correct.

Learning Vedas

All the hullabaloo about allowing everyone to learn Vedas is meaningless, empty talk. If a Hindu Dalit or a non-Brahmin wants to learn or study Vedas, who prevents him/her from doing it? The Brahmins? The Hindu Gurus? No. The truth is that anyone today can with his/her own self-efforts learn and study the Vedas as many Westerners have done, but only at their own initiative. Vedas are no longer an area of just oral transmission today: they are published in their original scriptures and translated in other languages. They are part of the Indian and Western research, which are not done by just Brahmins.

However, as TatTvamAsi has rightly pointed out in an earlier post with the analogy of academic discipline, any Tom, Dick and Harry cannot demand to be admitted into the institutions of Vedic teaching, just because they do not belong to the brAhmaNa varNa. In fact, neither the Dalits nor the non-brahmins demand it, only the politicians make all the hue and cry in India, specially in Tamilnadu.

Vedas are sRuti (heard) as everyone knows and were discovered by the Rishis. They classified the Vedas into parts that deal with the rituals (karma kANDa) and those that deal with the knowledge of Brahman (jnAna kANDa)--the Upanishads. They entrusted the perpetuation of the karma kANDa only to the brAhmaNa varna because of the rigours involved in the performance of the rituals and the correct pronunciation of the mantras. And the brahmins through their family trees have kept the tradition of oral transmission of the Vedas through millennia, preserving their integrity, and this oral tradition continues to this day.

The Rishis, of course, threw open the knowledge of the Upanishads to everyone--anyone who proves eligible for it. And this tradition is also continuing in India to this day. In today's scenario, Vedic schools are established by brahmin institutions and they admit only brahmin students (only those who are inclined towards it): there is nothing wrong in it. Most Hindu religious institutions (some of them very popular like the establishments of Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba. the Shaivite MaThams in Tamilnadu, and Mata Amritananda Mayi to name a few) are not headed by brahmins but still they prefer Vedic chanting and performance of Vedic rituals only by the brahmin community. This has been the case throughout the Hindu history and there is no need that things should change in the life of stark materialism today.

Let us not therefore, confuse between learning Vedas and practising Vedas for the purpose of chanting and conducting Vedic rituals. We are not more enlightened than our Rishis, so the present arrangement should continue. The reality in India today is that there is no bar on any Satyakama to seek a guru that suits him and learn the Upanishads and progress in his Self-Realization path.

However, this is Kali Yuga, and it is predicted that brahmins will become more and more materialistic and turn away from the Vedas and there will be total confusion endangering the survival of Vedic chanting. For details, check http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaliyuga.htm.

saidevo
29 January 2009, 08:35 AM
Namaste Yajvan.



...let me ask your opinion here. When you say Brahmins... are you suggesting only the Brahmin by birth by DNA, or the Brahmin identified by thoughts, deeds and actions?


Kanchi Paramacharya gives an elaborate discourse on the history, nature and meaning of the caste and varNa. He firmly says that a person's caste and varNa are decided on birth, not on action or guNa, and this is what Sri Krishna means in the Bhagavad Gita. For details, check this and other allied links:

Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm

Infinite Regress
29 January 2009, 09:42 AM
Namaste Yajvan.



Kanchi Paramacharya gives an elaborate discourse on the history, nature and meaning of the caste and varNa. He firmly says that a person's caste and varNa are decided on birth, not on action or guNa, and this is what Sri Krishna means in the Bhagavad Gita. For details, check this and other allied links:

Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm

Caste then would be more like race, right? If so, in what way is this different from racism? A black person cannot change his race, going by Kanchi Seer's idea, neither can a shudra. Isn't this unfair?

Infinite Regress
29 January 2009, 09:48 AM
Namaste participants.

• the Hindu varNa and caste system as it was created, as it existed and exists now is a very complex and emotional subject that is certainly beyond the grasp of a westerner, specially when he/she refuses to admit that any prejudicial treatment among the Indian castes is the same as that prevailing in the class-conscious West.

Just because caste can be equated to class, it doesn't make either of them right. One can say they're both wrong, and the very system is aimed at oppressing poor people.


Unlike the ancient Hindu civilization and religion, the origin and strife for supremacy of most Western civilizations and the western religions is certainly steeped in barbarism and blood. Even in the pre-European, ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece and Rome, slavery of humans was practiced, which was never the case in the Hindu civilization.

Kings in India were fighting and killing each other all the time. There's no difference between Indians and westerners in this respect, if at all there's any, westerners did this globally, whereas Indians were local.



The Blacks may be a liberated lot today in the U.S. with their representative at the Presidetial helm, but they are still portrayed in the Hollywood movies as vulgar, barbaric and with criminal propensities more than their White counterparts. The ghetto they live are as dirty and filty as the huts and its surroundings in India. Although many Blacks have made it to good positions in the society and politics, the others among them certainly don't lead a life that is on pair with that of their White counterparts. This is my impression, which I think is mostly correct.

Maybe so, but even the poorest Black is better off than a dalit in India.



However, as TatTvamAsi has rightly pointed out in an earlier post with the analogy of academic discipline, any Tom, Dick and Harry cannot demand to be admitted into the institutions of Vedic teaching, just because they do not belong to the brAhmaNa varNa.

All this is completely irrelevant in the 21st century. We must give up traditions which curtail our progress, and instead of focus on the important aspects of the Hindu religion alone, namely studying, meditation, yoga etc. Else, Hinduism will appear just as intolerant as Islam.

yajvan
29 January 2009, 10:41 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté

I have re-read many of the posts here. As I have little more to add, I see just one common theme

What you do (in life) is different then who you are (sattā ).

'Doing ' in life is for a comfortable ride as possible - the maximum you can contribute to your well being at the same time contributing to the society as a whole. That is, doing what one is most apt to do. This to me is the core of varṇa वर्ण - outward appearance, tribe order or class.

Who you are (sattā - Being) is not dependent on acts - building, fighting, cleaning, or worshiping, Being remains.

praṇām

TatTvamAsi
29 January 2009, 08:18 PM
Just because caste can be equated to class, it doesn't make either of them right. One can say they're both wrong, and the very system is aimed at oppressing poor people.

You have utterly NO clue about what you're stating. VD was, is, will never be intended to "oppress poor people"! How can you be so obtuse? Brahmins, ~3-4% of the population in India, a land with more than a billion people, are at the lowest rung when it comes to wealth! Brahmins were NEVER materially rich! In fact, one of the virtues of Brahminhood is to shirk materialism and live an austere life. And MANY Brahmins, even today, live such lives! In fact, a great Sanskrit word to describe this is vaIrAgyA!

Kings in the days of yore supported the Brahmin community for umteen reasons. Many Brahmins were mendicants who would BEG for food and basic necessities! Virtuous people, admiring piety and consequently holding Brahmins in high esteem, would support them. Brahmins never sought power, politically or otherwise, material wealth, and fame. That is what a real Brahmin did, does, and always will do!

The moronic British, in order to set man against man, masterminded a propaganda machine that is still damaging Indian society to this day! The severe antagonism, racism, and violence that Brahmins have undergone in the last 60 years is the culmination of the hateful, deliberately misleading literature created by the British during colonial times to oppress the real intellectual, independent, and proud spirit of India; Brahmins! From the destruction of the gurukula system of education by sh!t for brains like Macauley to the extreme anti-Brahmin sentiment, especially in South India, during the early part of the 20th Century, Indian society has drastically deteriorated economically and spiritually. The result was a mass exodus of Brahmins from India who sought greener pastures abroad! The socialist/marxist gauntlet thrown down by Nehru has devastated India for decades and only very recently have the people of India awakened to the plight of the country both domestically and overseas.

The point is, Brahmins, unlike the silly literature and propaganda that you are fed through the a$$ with, along with VD were NOT the reason India was in doldrums over the past six decades! The Nehruvian/Gandhian dynasty had struck a smashing blow to Bharat Maata when the bloody partition took place and communal tensions erupted.





Maybe so, but even the poorest Black is better off than a dalit in India.

What an imbecilic statement! The Indian reservation system in education makes affirmative action look like the Jim Crow laws from decades ago! The dalit in India is given EVERY opportunity to come up in society and succeed. In fact, most of the oppression of the dalits are by low-caste people; sUdras and such. It's funny how westerners, dalits themselves, think Brahmins oppress dalits because they have darker skin!



Kings in India were fighting and killing each other all the time.

Kings in India, HINDU India, always fought DHARMIC wars. With the advent of the barbarian untouchables (muslims/christians), this dharmic warfare soon declined! This argument hold NO water as to what is being mentioned! Read more about dharmic warfare in the Mahabharata. Civilian populations were NEVER attacked. No women or children were ever killed or enslaved. Battles would be fought in a BATTLEFIED; FAR AWAY from the main centers of civilization! There was no fighting after sunset and no man would fight another man without a weapon of EQUAL caliber. With the musLAMES in the 8th century, this kindness was taken as weakness and midnight raids, savage slaughter of innocent civilians, uneven battles (1 vs 10 etc.) resulted and thus exacerbated India's decline in Kali Yuga! Along with the iron fist rule of the muslims for about 900 years and the mind-numbing propaganda put forth by the untouchable British, as well as the dismantling of the Indian education system (gurukula) and anti-Hindu sentiment, India was dealt a severe blow in the 20th Century; partition. As the US Time Magazine correctly put in their issue in 1947: "India: Liberty & Death"!

saidevo
29 January 2009, 09:28 PM
Namaste IR.



Caste then would be more like race, right? If so, in what way is this different from racism? A black person cannot change his race, going by Kanchi Seer's idea, neither can a shudra. Isn't this unfair?


It is not Kanchi Seer's 'idea' that caste and varNa are decided only by birth and that they can't be changed. He has only given the correct interpretation of the relevant quotes in the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita. You may feel yourself to be competent to oppose what he has elaborated, but I am not.

Logically, a black person, even when he becomes a president, cannot change his race in this birth, can he? In the same way IMO, yes, a shUdra cannot change his varNa. This means that he can learn and study the Vedas, be a ruler or a business tycoon, but that does not alter his varNa in this birth.



Just because caste can be equated to class, it doesn't make either of them right. One can say they're both wrong, and the very system is aimed at oppressing poor people.


The varNa or caste or class system, per se is not wrong, only the exploitation of either by vested interests. It is this system that has has preserved the Hindu religious and cultural deversity and saved Hinduism from destruction by the western religions.



Kings in India were fighting and killing each other all the time. There's no difference between Indians and westerners in this respect, if at all there's any, westerners did this globally, whereas Indians were local.


Kings in India did not practice the system of human slavery, whereas in the European civilization even the rich and wealthy did it. The Indian kings might have fought among themselves killing each other, but only in wars, which were fought according to the kShatriya dharma. They never killed the civilians in wars nor fought their wars after sunset. It was the invading Muslims who violated these principles. Later, the British who ruled India, brought slyness and sophistry to those violations.



Maybe so, but even the poorest Black is better off than a dalit in India.


In what way? Does the poorest Black have the security and peace of life that a Dalit has in India? As a rule, the rich and wealthy of any religious community is never happy or peaceful because of more and more avarice (unless they seek to earn and spend their wealth dharmically), but the poor in India, left to themselves, are much more peaceful and satisfied than their counterparts in the West, and this is only because of their faith in the Hindu dharma.



All this is completely irrelevant in the 21st century. We must give up traditions which curtail our progress, and instead of focus on the important aspects of the Hindu religion alone, namely studying, meditation, yoga etc. Else, Hinduism will appear just as intolerant as Islam.


You cannot accuse a judicial system of being intolerant just because the law is becoming more and more of an ass, resulting in convictions of the criminal (and sometimes innocent) poor while the criminally rich and powerful always escape the clutches of the law. In the same way, Hinduism will never appear as intolerant to the right thinkers because of its varNa and caste system, which regulate the Hindu Dharma.

You are wrong in your view that 'traditions curtail our progress'. It is the Hindu traditions that have spread, fostered and sustained faith and dharma among all sections of the Hindu society and kept the influence of western materialism at bay. Similarly, study, meditation, yoga and such advanced methods of sAdhana are available in Hinduism to everyone without the requirement of an intermediate pastor.

On the other hand, while the Hindu paths of meditation and yoga are universal and generally welcomed in the West, some orthodox Muslim and Christian religious establishments seek to impose a ban on them to keep their followers enslaved to the precepts of their dogma. It is this tradition of imposed dogma of the western religions that stands in the way of the spiritual progress of the common person, and needs to be opposed.

A Hindu religious person, whether a brahmin or a dalit, might be required to adhere to the precepts of his varNa, but is never enslaved within its confines. He is always free to have his own independent inquiry towards the nature of his Self, and in this path he always has guidance, both by the scriptures and by gurus.

atanu
29 January 2009, 11:27 PM
Namaste Yajvan.
Kanchi Paramacharya gives an elaborate discourse on the history, nature and meaning of the caste and varNa. He firmly says that a person's caste and varNa are decided on birth, not on action or guNa, and this is what Sri Krishna means in the Bhagavad Gita. For details, check this and other allied links:

Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap2.htm

Namaskar All,


An extract from the Kanchi Paramacharya's writing:
Some concede that Bhagavan does not deny caste differences, but however argue that, according to the Lord, caste is not based on birth but on the individual qualities of people. In support they quote this line from the Gita (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/referp20.htm?PHPSESSID=c274c811ebe91787dbfeea48b883cd5c#GITA). "Caturvarnyam mayasrstam guna-karma-vibagasah".
When do we come to know the qualities that distinguish an individual? At what age does he reveal his nature? How are we to determine this and impart him the education and training necessary for the vocation that will be in keeping with his qualities?------------------
We must note the very practical aspect of Paramacharya's teaching. People who have faith on incarnation have no difficulty in believing that a birth is determined by past actions. Good actions lead to a birth in a pious family and vice versa. Because this knowledge is almost forgotten there is great discontent in society.

We should also note Caturvarnyam mayasrstam guna-karma-vibagasah. To call some caste as untouchable is not Hinduism, since Lord is not untouchable.

Sun-Pushan is considered Shudra in Upanishad.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
03 February 2009, 06:40 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté saidevo (et.al)




It is not Kanchi Seer's 'idea' that caste and varNa are decided only by birth and that they can't be changed. .

I thought to add this POV given in the Śiva mahāpurāṇa, Vidyeśvara¹ saṃhitā (section), 17th adhyāya (chapter), starting with the 124th śloka (verse) . Sūta¹ is speaking to the ṛṣi-s that are gathered.


This 17th adhyāya is a discussion of praṇava-pañcākṣara mantra. We know praṇava as oṁ ओं and pañcākṣara as namaḥ śivaya . It is called out here in the 17th adhyāya as 'a single letter' ( akāra , letter or sound, some call phoneme) oṁ ओं ,and that of '5 lettered ' (akāra or sound) namaḥ śivaya ( na+maḥ+ śi+va+ya = 5 )

124th śloka:
A kṣatriya should recite this mantra 5 lac¹ times, then he is freed from the duties of the a kṣatriya.
By again reciting the mantra 5 lacs more he becomes a brāhmaṇa.

This instruction is then repeated again:
125th śloka speaks of the vaiśya being freed; 127-128th śloka speaks of the śūdra being freed.
The number of repetitions increases to 20 lac-s for the śūdra.

Hence the Śiva mahāpurāṇa calls out ways of transformation. But transformed to what ? The position of mantra-brāhmaṇa.

It is also called out ( 130th śloka) that mahābhhiseka and naivedya should be performed in due order for the adoration of Śiva.


The 131st śloka says, by embracing the mantra of Śiva, the native (sādhu, yogī, aspirant, etc.) turns or becomes like Śiva Himself.

praṇām

words

Sūta is the disciple of VedaVyāsa, and Vyāsa is the son of Satyavatī. Vyāsa is considered the author of the 18 major purāṇa-s.
Vidyeśvara विद्येश्वर- of a class of emancipated beings
lac is lakśa लक्ष - 1 lac =100,000.

atanu
04 February 2009, 10:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
The 131st śloka says, by embracing the mantra of Śiva, the native (sādhu, yogī, aspirant, etc.) turns or becomes like Śiva Himself.



Namaste Yajvan ji and all friends,

I thought that a point should be clarified.

There is Veda, heard in Heart (and now also organized in print). A Brahmin's task is to be a conduit of Bhagawan's grace to all -- and that is an impossible job if the conduit is not clean and unblocked. So, a prior sadhana and as teacher is requisite experience for this post.

On the other hand, the Self is the real Veda -- the knowledge itself. To attain the Self is not the birth right of Brahmin alone, as all are self only. In this case, scripture, Gita, Ramana, Paramacharya, and all worthy gurus that I have read say: Excelling in Svdharma, nishkam svadharma is sufficient.

Gurus have taught that it is good and sufficient to fulfill one's function with love and with the understanding that all that one does is done as sacrifice towards the worship of the Universal Purusha -- the world itself.

Bhakti, Jnana, and Karma are actually three facets of sacrificial worship. And towards that there is no barrier.

Om

yajvan
05 February 2009, 04:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~

Namasté atanu-ji



Namaste Yajvan ji and all friends,

I thought that a point should be clarified.
On the other hand, the Self is the real Veda -- the knowledge itself. To attain the Self is not the birth right of Brahmin alone, as all are self only. In this case, scripture, Gita, Ramana, Paramacharya, and all worthy gurus that I have read say: Excelling in Svdharma, nishkam svadharma is sufficient. Om

This point is very attractive to discuss... can you please take this idea further.
niśka निष्क - golden vessel ; svadharma स्वधर्म- ones own (sva) + dharma (duty, responsibility).

There is a nice light at the end of the tunnel on this!

praṇām

atanu
05 February 2009, 11:29 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~
There is a nice light at the end of the tunnel on this!

praṇām

Namate Yajvan Ji,

Nis-kAm as I understand is "away from desire" or "destitute of desire" or "free of desire". The key, I think, is allowing every single act to be worship of divine purusha without bringing in the thought "What is there in it for me".

Shri Ramana along with few associates prepared food for visitors to Ramanasram for some period. One day an associate was surprised when He pulled him out of kitchen and said: Our duty is over. The associate found to his further dismay and surprise that a group of ladies soon came in, volunteering to feed the sadhus.

Later Shri Ramana also sang, "Let those who wish to sing, sing. Let those who wish to serve, serve. We will abide in Heart. We do not do anything". Of course, this cannot be for everyone.

On another instance, a man complained to Shri Ramana that pressure of his work did not allow him any meditaion time. Ramana kept silent. Soon a group of ladies came in and started singing: We draw out milk yet we think of Gopala only. There was no need to answer anything.



Regards

Om

yajvan
06 February 2009, 10:42 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Atanu offers the following insight:

Nis-kAm as I understand is "away from desire" or "destitute of desire" or "free of desire". The key, I think, is allowing every single act to be worship of divine purusha without bringing in the thought "What is there in it for me".


Thank you for your post. Yes, I see how you have offered this wisdom with a very understandable approach. With your kind permission, let me add to your insight if I may.

niṣkāma निष्काम- desireless, disinterested; some say unselfish; ni नि suggests negation; and nis निस् is away fromWhat you say is of great value , and resides on two levels as I see it:

On one level, we do what needs to be done - my teacher said, see the job, do the job, stay out of misery. Do what needs to be done - do not get caught-up with the 'what is in it for me' - as it only distracts the mind. Yet we still start the action with good intent for the successful completion of the action.
On another level every action can be yaj यज्- an offering, worshipping. This occurs when one is connected to anuttara, the Supreme. One realizes no action is really under the authorship of aṇu अणु - the finite, the minute i.e. the individual.
When one is captured by purṇatā or wholeness of Being (sattā) things change. To be a bit more comprehensive prāmatā, the knower (me, you & them), pramāṇa ( the means of knowing ~ awareness, intellect, perceptions), and prameya ( the objects we experience and perceive) become one continuous experience - that is, subjective and objective become one.

Then one sees correctly ( becomes pramātṛ) how this universe is structured; The experiencer has no authorship to action. Then each act by him/her that occurs is worship. That is why I mentioned mentioned niśka निष्क, the golden vessel , to suggest the value of ones own dharma (svadharma स्वधर्म- ones own (sva) + dharma (duty, responsibility). One's individual dharma becomes a 'golden vessel'. Actions are for the higher good, one is no longer bound by the actions that occur.The light at the end of the tunnel is one's actions are no longer finite (aṇu) or bound; They become filled with śuddhavidyā¹ or pure knowledge. This in its final view ( say the wise) is the Self.


praṇām

words

niṣkāma निष्काम - desireness, disinterested vs. niśka निष्क- golden vessel vs. niśkā निष्का is a measure of length
pramātṛ प्रमातृ ( some may write pramātṛi) - one who has correct notion, authority.
pramāṇa प्रमाण - a means of acquiring pramā प्रमा or certain knowledge ;perception by the senses, inference, comparisons etc.
pramata प्रमत- is thought out
śuddhavidyā = śuddha + vidyā: śuddha शुद्ध- is pure, clear, free from error + vidyā विद्या- knowledge

Pretnath
07 February 2009, 05:07 AM
Namaste All,:grouphug:

Sri. Vajvan G posted-



Madguste says Prana is one kala of Brahman, the eye is another, the ear another and the mind is yet one more. Having these, the 1/4th of Brahman is known as ayatanavan, the body's field or basis of operation. One who adores Brahman as ayatanavan, having these four parts, becomes ayatanavan in this world and wins all the worlds as his/her abode as well.



Can I ask what should a handicap do for overcome this?

Please do not take me wrong only :feedback:

yajvan
07 February 2009, 11:21 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Pretnath



Can I ask what should a handicap do for overcome this?

Note that the above information ( this complete set of posts) is for a better understanding of Brahman - comprehension and appreciation. That was the jest of the 1/4ths reviewed one at a time.

Being disabled can be of many types - loss of limb, motor skills, paralysis, etc. These types, albeit unfortunate, still allow the pañca jñānendriya-s (organs of cognition smell, touch, taste, hear) to function.
Yet I ask, if one's sight is lost what then? Does one not dream and 'see' the unfoldings? Or if one is deprived of smell - was there a time when smell was there and one can recall a scent? And that of touch? All these are rooted in consciousness.

If there is good connection with the antaḥkaraṇa-s ( mind, intellect, etc), then instruction into various upāya-s¹ can be considered. Yet if a person is devoid of coherence of mind to listen and take instruction - then the challenge increases (IMHO); I look to others that are more skilled in this area.
We had a discussion on the health of the aspirant some time back . Here it is http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=629&highlight=mental+illness


praṇām

words and references
Śiva sūtra-s of Vasugupta addresses a group of 3 upāya-s:
1. sāmbhavopāya (sāmbhava upāya)
This upāya The rise of Śiva consciousness by mere hints from the guru. It is via iccha śākti that the sādhu advances; the grace/will of the master. The sadhu gains entry into sāmaveśa ( posessed of the Divine), absorption of the individual consciousness in the Divine, without adapting any process. No dhyāna, mantra or any other aid is needed.

1a. sāmbhavopāya is also known as anupāya or 'without means or no upāya' - the way is without a way, as one person has said it. It does not really involve any process. Due to śaktipata or descent of grace in a very intense degree, everything needed for the realization, beginning from the liquidation of individual impurity down to the recognition of the state of Parameśvara may be achieved by the sādhu immediately and without going through any sādhana or discipline.

2. śākopāya (shakti-upāya)
The means of approach to the Divine through śakti, the ever-recurring contemplation of the pure thought of oneself being essentially Śiva or the Supreme ahaṁ .

3. āṇavopāya
āṇu अणु= fine , minute , atomic is known as 'atom' - which is another name for the individual jiva.
This upāya is the means whereby the āṇu or the individual jiva uses his own kāraṇa-s or instruments i.e. senses, prana and manas for self-realization. It includes disciplines concerning the regulation of prana, japa, concentration, meditation, etc.
Previous conversation from http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=25724&postcount=17 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=25724&postcount=17)

Pretnath
09 February 2009, 10:47 AM
Namaste Yajvan G,:hug:


Thanks for your feedback.

yajvan
09 February 2009, 12:20 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I wrote the following from post #35 above:



When one is captured by purṇatā or wholeness of Being (sattā) things change. To be a bit more comprehensive prāmatā, the knower (me, you & them), pramāṇa ( the means of knowing ~ awareness, intellect, perceptions), and prameya ( the objects we experience and perceive) become one continuous experience - that is, subjective and objective become one.
Then one sees correctly ( becomes pramātṛ) how this universe is structured; The experiencer has no authorship to action. Then each act by him/her that occurs is worship. That is why I mentioned mentioned niśka निष्क, the golden vessel , to suggest the value of ones own dharma (svadharma स्वधर्म- ones own (sva) + dharma (duty, responsibility). One's individual dharma becomes a 'golden vessel'. Actions are for the higher good, one is no longer bound by the actions that occur.

It would be wise to insure these words do not cause mischief. Which words could do this? The experiencer has no authorship to action.
A person could get the wrong impression that one's individual actions can be taken without responsibility.

Let me offer the words of svāmī Lakṣman-jū:
The limited individual is repsonsible for his/her actions. He has ego and feels that he is acting himself. When he/she feels that he/she is acting him/herself then the actions become the ownership of the individual.


It is when the individual realizes his/her Universal status (anuttara) then actions are transformed to universal actions - the authorship is now on a grand scale. This is when one sees correctly ( becomes pramātṛ)


praṇām

atanu
10 February 2009, 02:14 AM
Namaste All,:grouphug:
Can I ask what should a handicap do for overcome this?


Namaste Pretnath,

Attaining the knowledge of the Self entails overcoming the bonds of 5 sense organs and 5 action organs that make us feel that "I am here, located in this body only". Whereas, Upanishads say that the Mind and the sense functions are immortal and all pervasive. (Corollary: Sense functions are present in a handicap person also).

For example, we crave for taste and thus desire or abhor certain foods but actually the taste of food is meaningless in the food pipe beyond the tongue. Similarly, the sense of touch being vested in the skin makes the outer skin, one's outer limit of existence. Imagine a person with no sense of touch at all. This person is nearly All Pervasive. We need to separate out the organs from the functions.

If guided by a proper Guru, a handicap of this world, may actually be a blessing for attaining the knowledge of the Self -- so much less pre-conceptions to be got rid of.

Om

Pretnath
10 February 2009, 06:06 AM
Namaste All :grouphug:

Thanks Atanu G for your post. I too think proper Guru is important.:iagree:

I don't think without proper social strengeth, any mental strengeth can be gained or may be a proper Guru would able to do that.:dunno:

But in this time when Govt. is supporting casteness vote-bank policy, there is hardly anything left for the disableds. And now Handicaps too wants Action:duel: and not words :blah:

atanu
10 February 2009, 10:22 PM
Namaste All :grouphug:
I don't think without proper social strengeth, any mental strengeth can be gained or may be a proper Guru would able to do that.:dunno:

But in this time when Govt. is supporting casteness vote-bank policy, there is hardly anything left for the disableds. And now Handicaps too wants Action:duel: and not words :blah:

Namaste Pretnath,

I understand otherwise. I understand that the greatest handicap is our leaving the full and perfect Existence-Knowledge-Bliss that is the Self and going to dig for troubles around --- and we find what we dig for.

:naughty:

Om

Hiwaunis
11 February 2009, 10:14 PM
"Most individuals in the United States" are untouchables as well. Did you know that? What is your ancestry? Trace it far back and you will see that most of these people in the US have descended from the dregs of Europe; barbarians and murderers.

Secondly, you have no clue about the 'caste system' or Varnashrama Dharma. It is ONLY because of Varnashrama Dharma, which Gandhi (IMO) supported, that Hinduism still exists whereas ALL other ancient civilizations have vanished! It will NEVER be destroyed and it is the backbone of India.

Furthermore, to compare Varnashrama Dharma to the movement of the blacks in the US is blasphemous. VD is NOT based on skin color! If it was, Michael Jackson would be the greatest Aryan (noble person) on the planet! :D He is certainly not and neither is any westerner! I have mentioned several times that an Aryan is one of NOBLE qualities and background! 100% of westerners are untouchables! Did you know that? Too bad eurocentric idiots, I mean 'scholars' thought that the caste system arose through a fantasy they made up called Aryan Invasion Theory where fair-skinned people (hahah) subjugated dark-skinned people!

VD has been beaten to death at HDF so do some research before blabbering something!

And to the respected members of HDF (Yajvan, Atanu, Satay, Saidevo et al.) I just wanted to let you know I am SICK & TIRED of these silly westerners coming on here and just slandering India and her civilization; past & present. It is time WE HINDUS unite and fight back (through education and dialogue ;)).

Pranam,
This post started out being very pleasant and informative. Somewhere down the line it became a bit cruel and somewhat vulgar. Reading some of the post I begin to question myself. What am I? Untouchable, Asura, Brahmin? Do I fit into any caste?

My background: Grandparents both on Mother's side half breeds, African and Native American. On father's side Grandmother Native American, father Black. Myself: practice meditation, chant mantras, vegatarian and celibacy. About 21 years ago I was handed a book titled " The Nectar of Instruction" in an airport (I still have it), I read it and from that day on Christianity was out. Other than books about a certain profession I only read books on Hinduism; Rig Veda, The Upanishads, The Bhagavad Gita, Yoga Suturas just to name a few. I watch a little Tv maybe 1 hour every 3 or 4 months. No radio or funky music. I have invested in the Indian TV series CD sets, Om Namah Shivay (I have watched this every night for the last 2 years), Brahma Vishnu Mahesh, The MahaBharat, Vishnu Puran and the Life of the Buddha. I have bought so many CD's, sacred chants, beautiful Hindi songs (prayers and chalisa's). I live in a 1bdrm apartment which is dedicated to TriDev's and TriDevi's. I say all of this to make a point I am definately not your average Black, female, American. As a matter of fact the only people that I talk to is at work. I donot socialize at all. I consider the world outside of my apartment as hell.

I just wanted to let you know I am SICK & TIRED of these silly westerners coming on here and just slandering India and her civilization; past & present. It is time WE HINDUS unite and fight back (through education and dialogue ;)).

It is not wrong to oppose evil and correct ignorance, Namaste. I was in India is the 1993. A lot of the people I saw were poor. But I don't think that was something that they carry in there minds because they were always smiling. I'm not sure what they were saying to me but I think it was hello.

So anyway what is someone like me considered to be? A bigger question is why am I sooooo different from others?
Om Shanti

MahaHrada
12 February 2009, 06:02 AM
So anyway what is someone like me considered to be? A bigger question is why am I sooooo different from others?
Om Shanti

Westerners are avarNa or chandala, that means without an association with any of the 4 varnas.

saidevo
12 February 2009, 06:25 AM
Namaste Hawaunis.

The kind of spiritual life you lead is impressive. Please rest assured that most of us born Hindus are much more worldly, though Hiduism courses our blood. Perhaps familiarity breeds indifference. All the 'satsang' you have in solitude with your books and CD sets and TV series amounts to a large bank balance of meritorious karma and on top of that you practice meditation. With such personal glory, why should you worry about how you are classified in the rungs of varNa and caste? You have all the qualities of a 'laukIka brahmin' (brahmin who chooses worldly life, as distinguished from 'vaidIka brahmins') and may consider yourself as one in mind and action and this is what matters, IMO.

All the talk we have in HDF about caste and varNa which--more often than not gets emotional because of its sensitive nature--is certainly not meant to hurt the feelings of individual Western Hindus like you. It is more of a reaction to the inhuman, exclusive and adharmic practices of a large number of Western religious people of the Christian and Islamic religions who seek to destroy India and her civilization by slander and conversion.

Hindu Dharma Shastras have the provision of a caste called 'sAmAnya' for other religious people who come into the fold of Hinduism. If you want to be formal about being fitted into a caste and varNa, you might as well approach a respect Hindu Institution in your area and have your name changed into a Hindu name as well. But then as everyone knows, even among the born Hindus in today's circumstances, the caste and varNa are highly mixed up and the sacred provisions of varNa dharma are getting diluted because of such factors as inter-caste, inter-religious marriages and brahmins neglecting their dharma.

Your Hindu spiritual life certainly sets you apart from many Hindu commons and notables and in this sense you are 'sooooo different' from them. You need not worry about external identifications such as caste and varNa, IMHO.

MahaHrada
12 February 2009, 07:13 AM
If you want to be formal about being fitted into a caste and varNa, you might as well approach a respect Hindu Institution in your area and have your name changed into a Hindu name as well.

I have some experience both with Indian and with western society and i think it is not possible and also not advisable for a westerner to try to fit into the Hindu social system of varnas. Besides the practical impossibility of such an assimilation, what should be the reason for such a wish? I do not understand the advantage of pretending to belong to a varna, why one should not simply try to be accepted and respected for being that, what one actually is, a westerner without a Varna?

reflections
12 February 2009, 10:44 AM
Namaste All,

This is excerpt from an article by Swami Sivananda:

In a broad sense, a Sattvic man, who is pious and virtuous and leads the divine life, is a Brahmana, a Rajasic man with heroic quality is a Kshatriya, a Rajasic man with business tendencies is a Vaisya and a Tamasic man is a Sudra. Hitler and Mussolini were Kshatriyas. Ford was a Vaisya.

The full article can be read at following link.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Dharma_inHinduism/id/23077


From this, article I do not think that all the Westeners are avarna. Westerners can not fit in 'Jati' system of India certainly. Like, in case of Hiwaunis, his Jati will depend on his roots from Africa and Native America. But, I guess, depending upon guna (attitude/characteristics) and karma (action), it might be possible to find Varna for any new comers to Hindu dharma.

MahaHrada
12 February 2009, 11:49 AM
From this, article I do not think that all the Westeners are avarna. Westerners can not fit in 'Jati' system of India certainly. Like, in case of Hiwaunis, his Jati will depend on his roots from Africa and Native America. But, I guess, depending upon guna (attitude/characteristics) and karma (action), it might be possible to find Varna for any new comers to Hindu dharma.

Yes maybe, i know that some Gurus , especially neo-hindu, argue that Varna is independt of jati, i doubt this, but even if it is, for what purpose needs a westerner to belong to any Varna? Especially one who is not even living in India?
A westerner has not received any of the samskaras, he does have no idea about the svadharma of the respective varna, in short he will shurely fail to fulfill the required duties, of any of the varnas, this will only be the cause of accumulation of negative karma.
When a westerner attracted to bharata dharma remains what he is, without any offical varna this will be an advantage for him, while pretending to belong to a varna will only be causing obstacles, both when interacting with western culture and when interacting with Indian society and culture, that is what i am firmly convinced off.
I am a westerner and i have started practicing yoga already when i was six years old and was in india and nepal and the hindu island bali for several times and i never encountered any disrespect or had any disadvantage because of my birth or being an avarna. Even while i have been practicing Yoga for all my life and feeling closer to hindu culture than western, i never felt the need to care about association of my self with any Varna. I never felt there is any disadvantage in being avarna, and never was i mistreated because of my birth,on the contrary i always was respected and treated kindly by Hindus from all social backgrounds and walks of life and that even beyond my expectations.
Isn´t spiritual attainment exactly about being what one is, not of attachment to any outward appearance? Why then the desire of some westerners to enter into a varna? When i think that some westerners belive that they can become Hindus by owning a piece of paper signed by some Arya samaj or other offical, what a joke. A Hindu License :) Something like a driver license haha. And what Varna do you think the average egotistical new age western convert to Hinduism would like to see printed in his "Hindu License" ? Of course he wants nothing less than the best, this is the typical mentality of such people, and now all off a suden we have some "licensed and certified western brahmins"..... really all this "westerners have a varna" is make belive and in real life practically impossible and will cause only obstacles.

satay
12 February 2009, 01:25 PM
Namaskar,

I also don't see a need for westerners to belong to a varna and/or jati except in the case where the western hindu might want to perform any sort of yagna or hindu marriage or any other ritual.

My experience is that the if you are performing these rituals or activities then the presiding pundit will ask you your 'Gotra' (which is some how part of jati or varna?).

What would/should the western hindu answer in these cases?

Just a thought.

MahaHrada
12 February 2009, 02:12 PM
Namaskar,

I also don't see a need for westerners to belong to a varna and/or jati except in the case where the western hindu might want to perform any sort of yagna or hindu marriage or any other ritual.

My experience is that the if you are performing these rituals or activities then the presiding pundit will ask you your 'Gotra' (which is some how part of jati or varna?).

What would/should the western hindu answer in these cases?

Just a thought.


A western hindu could use the gotra of his Guru, since a Guru is ones´s spiritual father and one therefore belongs to his spiritual family.
For me this is not a problem because all nath yogis are descendants from shiva and it is said we belong to shiva gotra.
Now if a westerner has no guru he obviously is asking for trouble :) he has no gotra and must find someone willing to risk to be inventive and modify the samkalpa excluding the gotra or maybe exchanging it with the name of the backward tribal area where the westerners family came from, something like Michiganian gotra :) or Newyorkian, Londinian ?

satay
12 February 2009, 10:25 PM
Namaste,


A western hindu could use the gotra of his Guru, since a Guru is ones´s spiritual father and one therefore belongs to his spiritual family.
For me this is not a problem because all nath yogis are descendants from shiva and it is said we belong to shiva gotra.


That's true. I was thinking the same.



Now if a westerner has no guru he obviously is asking for trouble :) he has no gotra and must find someone willing to risk to be inventive and modify the samkalpa excluding the gotra or maybe exchanging it with the name of the backward tribal area where the westerners family came from, something like Michiganian gotra :) or Newyorkian, Londinian ?

Now, this is some sort of discrimination. Isn't it?

A person born to hindu parents can perform any of the rituals without having any spiritual guru or even really be a hindu or having any knowledge of hinduism. As long as he can supply the gotra of his parent's lineage all is well in his case.

Yet, this is not the case for a westerner, who it seems must have a guru to get any of sort of yagna performed. It doesn't seem to matter at all if the western hindu is actually more advanced in his spiritual endeavours than his counterpart who happens to be born in a hindu family, sometimes accidently!

We seem to be saying that a westerner hindu must have a guru (I can understand why) yet the same condition doesn't seem to be applying for a person born to hindu parents.

I know in general what you said is true in practice but I think it is discrimination. There must be a better way to accomodate the westerner hindu spiritualist.

I think this circles back to the idea that varna is assigned by birth. Hmm...

yajvan
12 February 2009, 10:58 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~


Namasté


MahaHrada writes,

A western hindu could use the gotra of his Guru, since a Guru is ones´s spiritual father and one therefore belongs to his spiritual family.
This makes sense... there also is another option one could consider ( not better, just an alternative). From a Jyotish perspective each nakṣhatra (or 27 lunar mansions) is owned by one of the saptaṛṣi-s ( 7 rishi-s).
Knowing ones janma-kundali ( birth chart and grāhaka positions) can offer the presiding ṛṣi of the lunar nakṣhatra. Hence ones gotra could be known thereform.

Just another POV for consideration.

praṇām

atanu
13 February 2009, 01:46 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~
Namasté

Knowing ones janma-kundali ( birth chart and grāhaka positions) can offer the presiding ṛṣi of the lunar nakṣhatra. Hence ones gotra could be known thereform.

Just another POV for consideration.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

I think this is the truest answer. Yet why consider only the Lunar Nakshatra? Is it because Moon is Mind?

Om

atanu
13 February 2009, 02:27 AM
Namaste Friends

Westerners cannot be avarNa. The four varnas are from Lord and Lord (Brahman or Shiva) alone is avarNa -- having no outward appearance. Only the primeval unborn Shiva (Nara) qualifies as avarNa. Similarly, there is no true casteless amng the manifested ones, except the Self Realised ones, who are beyond caste.

Guru Sivananda is not a neo-Guru, which itself is a neo term. Shri Krishna might have been a neo guru for the ritual bound Brahmins of His time. Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) has no such thing as neo Upadesha or neo Guru, else it would be a contradiction of terms. How can neo be sanatana?

Varna and Jati are indeed different for the simple fact that these are two different words signifying two different things.


Varna and Jati are indeed linked since, jati, the ambience or environment of manifestation of soul -- position assigned by birth , rank , caste , family , race , lineage etc. is determined by its varna, accrued through karma of many incarnations. Varna is spiritual and Jati is more material (or more manifest). But varna is the cause.
When Sivanada Guru says :
In a broad sense, a Sattvic man, who is pious and virtuous and leads the divine life, is a Brahmana, a Rajasic man with heroic quality is a Kshatriya, a Rajasic man with business tendencies is a Vaisya and a Tamasic man is a Sudra. Hitler and Mussolini were Kshatriyas. Ford was a Vaisya.He is not a Neo Guru. He is a Guru who surely knows that no manifestation is avarNa. And He has also not denied varna's link with jati. To term something or someone that you can even see with eyes as avarNa is deviating from the meaning itself.

Om Namah Shivaya

sm78
13 February 2009, 04:45 AM
In short...

catur varnyam maya srstam
guna karma vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam

birth and genetics getting associated with jati and varNa is a later smartic injunction. its validity is in only the land called bharata.

MahaHrada
13 February 2009, 07:12 AM
We seem to be saying that a westerner hindu must have a guru (I can understand why) yet the same condition doesn't seem to be applying for a person born to hindu parents.

I know in general what you said is true in practice but I think it is discrimination. There must be a better way to accomodate the westerner hindu spiritualist.

I think this circles back to the idea that varna is assigned by birth. Hmm...

I don´t think gotra is a real problem for a westerner interested in bharata dharma. There are a lot of different rules and regulations anyway, that help to keep the diverse communitys and darshanas apart, there will always be some discrimination of one community against the other, but these differences also help to avoid deterioriation of one darshana or community by another, and therefore preserve diverse approaches, Therefore, because of the need to preserve some purity, and the freedom of expression of the philosophical and cultural distinctions amongst the different darshanas and local varieties of Hindu dharma, some discrimination is benefical.

I think there will be natural process and with time these issues will be solved by the community, naturally there will develop some distinctions, for instance i myself do some yagyas now and then, but it so happened that i began leaving out the spoken samkalpa altogether, which does usually requires the detailed descriptions of time people and place including gotra, and replaced it with a manasika samkalpa, just remembering in my mind that i will be now doing this yagya for the benefit of those present at this specific time without going into the details. So i belive we do not need to think about solutions that fit all circumstances. I remember another incident of westerners i knew, having a hindu marriage, in this case an indian friend simply adopted them without formality into his family and all was well. I think the way is to react flexible and find practical solutions for a given situation, generalisations won´t help.

In my opinion Hinduism does not need to adapt to western values and demands of converts, on the contrary i think in general it has succumbend already way too much to many misleading western attitudes and conventions and also to hypocrite christian morals and values and some even perverted bharata dharma into some sort of monotheism, just for the sake of being more readily accepted by christian Westerners as equals.

There are so many fake neo $ Gurus nowadays trying to sell perverted varieties of Hinduism to the gullible westerners which distort bharata dharma just to make it appear pleasing to western palates because of greed for money and power. Only thinking of these people and their western "devotees" i could puke on my keyboard.

devotee
13 February 2009, 09:12 AM
Westerners cannot be avarNa. The four varnas are from Lord and Lord (Brahman or Shiva) alone is avarNa -- having no outward appearance. Only the primeval unborn Shiva (Nara) qualifies as avarNa. Similarly, there is no true casteless amng the manifested ones, except the Self Realised ones, who are beyond caste.


Excellent post ! :)

OM

yajvan
13 February 2009, 07:40 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Namaste Yajvan Ji, I think this is the truest answer. Yet why consider only the Lunar Nakshatra? Is it because Moon is Mind? Om
Namaste atanu-ji,

I will offer my POV. To-date, I am still not satisfied on the explanation, so I can only offer an opinion.

We know that 3 components make up the person

body - indicated by the lagna positon. Yet the body is a heap of tattva-s that assemble to form this body, then dis-assemble at death.
ātma - ruled by ātmakaraka Sun (sūrya) is the exponent of the Supreme (anuttara) within us - it is perfect and beyond quality.
manas - mind + storage of vāsanā-s¹ that come with this component from birth-to-birth. This is owned by Moon (Soma).It is via the moon's ownership the nakshatra play their role. The nakshatra are gouped as we know by the 4 goals in life i.e. dharma, artha, kāma and mokśa. Yet the nakshatra ayana अयन ( path, place, in this sense 'goal') indicates one's profession or how time is spent. At the pada level ( 4 pada per nakshatra) indicates personal goals and desires. It is my assessment that the gotra are connected to the fore-mentioned naksatra qualities.

Yet the nakshatra are not just limited to the items just mentioned. We know know nakshatra also are identified by guna - (sattva, rajas and tamas), gender - (male, female and neuter), etc etc.

That said, the dasa system called Mula¹ dasa indicates past life (karma) that comes to bear in this life. I think this plays a key role
also in the gotra influence, as this is a moon-driven dasa system.

praṇām

words

mūla मूल - cause , origin , commencement , beginning ; root
vāsanā वासना - the present consciousness of past perceptions , knowledge derived from memory; the impression/imprints of anything remaining (unconsciously) in the mind

Hiwaunis
13 February 2009, 11:41 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~


Namasté


MahaHrada writes,

This makes sense... there also is another option one could consider ( not better, just an alternative). From a Jyotish perspective each nakṣhatra (or 27 lunar mansions) is owned by one of the saptaṛṣi-s ( 7 rishi-s).
Knowing ones janma-kundali ( birth chart and grāhaka positions) can offer the presiding ṛṣi of the lunar nakṣhatra. Hence ones gotra could be known thereform.

Just another POV for consideration.

praṇām

Pranam,
This may be a silly and far-out question but, here it is: Since I was born under the Sagittarian stars and Jupiter is my ruling sign does that make DevGuru Bhrihaspati my spiritual father?

Om Shanti,

atanu
14 February 2009, 12:17 PM
In short...

catur varnyam maya srstam
guna karma vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam

------ its validity is in only the land called bharata.

Namaste SM,

I do not understand. Sorry. ;) Validity of what is in Bharata only? Lord or His created catur varnyam? How can anything of this Universe be outside of Lord's creation? And how can Lord be valid only for Bharata?

Om

reflections
15 February 2009, 11:00 PM
Namaste,

What will be the Varna of adopted child?
If I adopt a child, will the child get my varna?
Or it depends upon her/his Guna and Karma when the cild grows up?

sm78
16 February 2009, 06:38 AM
Namaste SM,

I do not understand. Sorry. ;) Validity of what is in Bharata only? Lord or His created catur varnyam? How can anything of this Universe be outside of Lord's creation? And how can Lord be valid only for Bharata?

Om

The orthodoxy that only a brahmin by birth can be a brahmin which comes from smritis is valid only for bharata as smritis are not applicable outside. Even venturing into the sea leads to loss of one's cast according to some smritis.

Hence I was arguing that the laws on restrition on varNa's is not applicable to westerners since it is guna-karma which determine varNa and not birth as per krishna and smartic restrictions don't apply to them. So a westerner with brahmin temperment should have no restriction of being identifying with the btahmin varNa. ;).

I think it is the guna-karma and appropriate samaskaras which should determine varNa. Birth is also a factor for people of this land, but I don't find it acceptable to be the main deciding factor.

I am not knowlegable enough on smritis, but a bulk of them seem to be later handiwork and contradicts many societal norms of ramayana, mahabharata or even chankya's time. These later perversions must be flushed down the drain.

MahaHrada
16 February 2009, 07:21 AM
I am not knowlegable enough on smritis, but a bulk of them seem to be later handiwork and contradicts many societal norms of ramayana, mahabharata or even chankya's time. These later perversions must be flushed down the drain.

Mahabharata Shanti parva

"Yudhishthira said, 'Thou O grandsire, art endued with wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures, with conduct and behaviour, with diverse kinds of excellent attributes, and also with years. Thou art distinguished above others by intelligence and wisdom and penances. I shall, therefore, O thou that art the foremost of all righteous men, desire to address enquiries to thee respecting Righteousness. There is not another man, O king, in all the worlds, who is worthier of being questioned on such subjects. O best of kings, how may one, if he happens to be a Kshatriya or a Vaisya or a Sudra, succeed in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? It behoveth thee to tell me the means. Is it by penances the most austere, or by religious acts, or by knowledge of the scriptures, that a person belonging to any of the three inferior orders succeeds in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? Do tell me this, O grandsire!'
"Bhishma said, 'The status of a Brahmana, O Yudhishthira, is incapable of acquisition by a person belonging to any of the three other orders. That status is the highest with respect to all creatures. Travelling through innumerable orders of existence, by undergoing repeated births, one at last, in some birth, becomes born as a Brahmana.


...."Bhishma continued, 'Hearing these words of his, Purandara said unto him. The status of a Brahmana, O Matanga, which thou desirest to acquire is really unattainable by thee. It is true, thou desirest to acquire it, but then it is incapable of acquisition by persons begotten on uncleansed souls. O thou of foolish understanding, thou art sure to meet with destruction if thou persistest in this pursuit. Desist, therefore, from this vain endeavour without any delay. This object of thy desire, viz., the status of a Brahmana, which is the foremost of everything, is incapable of being won by penances. Therefore, by coveting that foremost status, thou wilt incur sure destruction. One born as a Chandala can never attain to that status which is regarded as the most sacred among the deities and Asuras and human beings!'"

The whole story of Matanga in detail:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a027.htm

So it cannot be said that smritis contradict the Mahabharata regarding the statement that Varna can only by acquired by birth.

Guna seems to play a role insofar as it determines the rebirth. So the general rule at least in vedic and vedantic or in "mainstream" Hinduism, exemplified in Mahabharata seems to be that Varna can be acquired solely by birth, birth again is determined by karma and guna, whether there where some exceptions to that general rule or whether we like that or not, or want a reform of that rule, is a different question.

saidevo
16 February 2009, 07:43 AM
Guna seems to play a role insofar as it determines the rebirth. So the general rule at least in vedic and vedantic or in "mainstream" Hinduism, exemplified in Mahabharata seems to be that Varna can be acquired solely by birth, birth again is determined by karma and guna, whether there where some exceptions to that general rule or whether we like that or not, or want a reform of that rule, is a different question.


This would also mean that people who are brAhmaNas in this birth, unless they hold on to their dharma, at least to the extent desired by the mainstream AchAryas in this Kali Yuga, cannot take it for granted that they would be born into the same varNa and caste in their next birth.

On the other hand, people who are the equivalent of brAhmaNas by their guNa and actions in this birth, whether they are Indian or Western Hindus, are likely to be born in the brAhmaNa varNa/caste in their next birth. This could be a comforting thought for them, for after all human life is short!

MahaHrada
16 February 2009, 08:26 AM
This would also mean that people who are brAhmaNas in this birth, unless they hold on to their dharma, at least to the extent desired by the mainstream AchAryas in this Kali Yuga, cannot take it for granted that they would be born into the same varNa and caste in their next birth.

On the other hand, people who are the equivalent of brAhmaNas by their guNa and actions in this birth, whether they are Indian or Western Hindus, are likely to be born in the brAhmaNa varNa/caste in their next birth. This could be a comforting thought for them, for after all human life is short!

I don´t know whether there is a requirement for a huge percentage of brahmins in todays or future society.

I personally would not aspire to be a brahmin by birth, especially not in Kali Yuga, because in my opinon there are a lot of disadvantages connected with being a brahmin, since the required learning curve is hard and the perfomance of all the required shrauta ritual duties and regulations regarding purity is cumbersome.

If one is born a brahmin and does not follow the shruti, because of ignorance, diluted traditions, or negative circumstances, or because the genetics are mixed, this can become the cause for problems in life.

On the other hand, when one is born in any other varna or no varna, with less regular religious duties or even no duties, every virtuous act you do out of your own decison and free will, adds to your well being.

Recently i read that there are only about 1000 brahmins left, in all of india who actually follow the shrauta tradition. And only to receive the mantras of the vedic or shrautra tradition one would need to be a brahmin by birth, all agamic traditions and Yoga can be practised irrespective of varna.
Especially for westerners to get an impression of ancient shrauta ritual tradition this excerpt from a movie posted on a blog might prove helpful:

http://varnam.org/blog/2009/02/how-old-are-our-mantras/


In the story of Matanga, in the Mahabharata there are some details about how the birth in a brahmin family is attained:

"From the order of brute life one attains to the status of humanity. If born as human being, he is sure to take birth as a Pukkasa or a Chandala. Verily, one having taken birth in that sinful order of existence, viz., Pukkasa, one, O Matanga has to wander in it for a very long time. Passing a period of one thousand years in that order, one attains next to the status of a Sudra. In the Sudra order, again, one has to wander for a long time. After thirty thousand years one acquire the status of a Vaisya. There, in that order, one has to pass a very long period. After a time that is sixty times longer than what has been stated as the period of Sudra existence, one becomes a person of the fighting order. In the Kshatriya order one has to pass a very long time. After a time that is measured by multiplying the period last referred to by sixty, one becomes born as a fallen Brahmana. In this order one has to wander for a long period. After a time measured by multiplying the period last named by two hundred, one becomes born in the race of such a Brahmana as lives by the profession of arms. There, in that order, one has to wander for a long period. After a time measured by multiplying the period last named by three hundred, one takes birth in the race of a Brahmana that is given to the recitation of the Gayatri and other sacred Mantras. There, in that order, one has to wander for a long period. After a time measured by multiplying the period last named by four hundred, one takes birth in the race of such a Brahmana as is conversant with the entire Vedas and the scriptures, There, in that order, one has to wander for a very long period. While wandering in that status of existence, joy and grief, desire and aversion vanity and evil speech, seek to enter into him and make a wretch of him. If he succeeds in subjugating those foes, he then attains a high end. If, on the other hand, those enemies succeed in subjugating him, he falls down from that high status like a person falling down on the ground from the high top of a palmyra tree. Knowing this for certain, O Matanga, I say unto thee, do thou name some other boon, for the status of a Brahmana is incapable of being attained by thee"

Pretnath
18 February 2009, 10:30 AM
Namaste All, :grouphug:

I don't think anybody can become brahman by birth

I had learned on some text that the original brahmans were brahamcharis and they had no childrens

My brahman gotras are from those who were born in lower castes like Matang and Prashar were chandals, Vyas was son of Prashar and a dhuwar woman, Author of 'Itrey Brahman' wasson of a brahman father and shudra mother etc etc.

Even Maharshi Valmiki was Ratnakar Sharma, Sharmas are now brahmans but Valmikis reserved SC:FAQmean:

All this is 4 caste reservation & nothing else

TatTvamAsi
18 February 2009, 11:18 PM
In my opinion Hinduism does not need to adapt to western values and demands of converts, on the contrary i think in general it has succumbend already way too much to many misleading western attitudes and conventions and also to hypocrite christian morals and values and some even perverted bharata dharma into some sort of monotheism, just for the sake of being more readily accepted by christian Westerners as equals.


Can you elaborate on this? What 'values' has Hinduism adapted to to suit western attitudes?

devotee
19 February 2009, 12:39 AM
Namaste all,

I never thought this thread would go so long ! :)

I thank Yajvanji, Atanu & all others for their valuable inputs. However I see it in a simple way :

What if I ask this question :

"Who is fit to study Maths?" ?

What should be the correct answer ? The simple answer is, "The person who can understand Maths !". Now does the capability of learning maths come from by virtue of his birth in a certain caste, region, sex or religion ? A Very Strong "NO" !

Similarly, any knowledge must be imparted only to the student who can understand the subject correctly. And that capability certainly doesn't come by birth. A person doesn't become a brahmin just by virtue of his birth. He must possess the qualities of a brahmin, as Lord Krishna elaborates in the Bhagwad Gita. Similarly, if a person possesses the required qualities he is actually a brahmin irrespective of his caste by birth. Didn't Lord Krishna say in BG that the division is based on Guna & Karma (& certainly not on the basis of birth).

Discriminating people on caste by birth, place of birth, skin color, religion by birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is actually a crime against humanity. If there is a "God" who accepts this discrimination, he is certainly not my God.

Regards,

OM

atanu
26 February 2009, 11:06 AM
Namaste all,

Didn't Lord Krishna say in BG that the division is based on Guna & Karma (& certainly not on the basis of birth).

Discriminating people on caste by birth, place of birth, skin color, religion by birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is actually a crime against humanity. If there is a "God" who accepts this discrimination, he is certainly not my God.

Regards,

OM

Namaste Devotee,

I concur fully with you that discrimination based on birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is crime. Yet, I feel that there is another aspect that needs to be clarified for the sake of a grudge/discrimination and bias free existence. Lord Krishna, in addition to stating that the four varna division is based on Guna & Karma also says that He ensures good birth for certain souls. He certainly speaks of repeated birth and the role of Karma over several lives that controls birth.

Much discontent in individuals (and in society) can be mitigated, if it is understood that if one is born in a certain ambience with certain qualities (bad or good), it is by one's karma. Without knowing or with half understanding of Karma and its role in one's destiny/environment, one will only crib about 'others'.



Regards.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
26 February 2009, 01:41 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Namasté atanu-ji (et.al)



Lord Krishna, in addition to stating that the four varna division is based on Guna & Karma also says that He ensures good birth for certain souls. Om Namah Shivaya


I thought to add this for the reader that is following this conversation along. How does 4 varṇa occur? One would think there are 3 guṇa-s why not 3 varṇa?

Kṛṣṇa tells us in the Bhāgavad gītā¹ that at the core of the 4 fold order or division of society (cātur-varṇyaṁ) it is based upon the 3 guṇa-s. That varṇa¹ is the following: brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s.

Yet you have to ask if there are 3 guṇa-s how do you get 4 varṇa? It is based on the 3 guṇa-s primary and secondary combinations. We needn't go to the tertiary or 3rd level because if the 1st and 2nd levels are not possible, the 3 level will not matter.

1. Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
2. Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary

3. Rajas as primary and sattva as secondary
4. Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary

5. Tamas as primary and sattva as secondary
6. Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

Note the 2nd and 5th combinations are not possible due to the drastic contrast of sattva and tamas. This leaves us with 4 possible varṇa that align this way:

brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary praṇām

words and references

Bhāgavad gītā - 4 fold order - Chapt 4, 13th śloka
varṇa वर्ण - color or variation of color; color then considers species , kind, sort, character, nature, quality, property, class, kula, tribe, order or, caste
More on the guna-s at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24355&postcount=5 , post 5 & 6.

saidevo
26 February 2009, 08:49 PM
Discriminating people on caste by birth, place of birth, skin color, religion by birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is actually a crime against humanity. If there is a "God" who accepts this discrimination, he is certainly not my God.


The crime of discrimination is rampant, actually more in the areas of worldly life today, than in religious. If this principle is followed and imposed as a law in letter and spirit, then the car driver, the watchman standing at the gate and the maid doing the cleansing and washing chores in the house of a wealthy or powerful person--any person who employs such people for that matter--should be able to partake the festivities of the house and even dine at the same table with the family.

Let us not forget that in today's mercenary society driven by money without morals, the rich, the powerful, the politician, actor, sportsperson, doctor, industrialist--practically everyone who is someone--derives his/her profession and status more by family inheritance and legacy than by actual efforts. So why blame the minority brahmins who are in an unenviable position for being born into their caste, especially when a minuscule percentage rigorously stick to their dharma of nourishing the Vedas?

devotee
27 February 2009, 01:38 AM
I concur fully with you that discrimination based birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is crime. Yet, I feel that there is another aspect that needs to be clarified for the sake of a ongrudge/discrimination and bias free existence. Lord Krishna, in addition to stating that the four varna division is based on Guna & Karma also says that He ensures good birth for certain souls. He certainly speaks of repeated birth and the role of Karma over several lives that controls birth.

Much discontent in individuals (and in society) can be mitigated, if it is understood that if one is born in a certain ambience with certain qualities (bad or good), it is by one's karma. Without knowing or with half understanding of Karma and its role in one's destiny/environment, one will only crib about 'others'.

Namaste Atanu,


Yes, the birth in a certain family, ambience is an important ingredient it is decided by one's karma. However, this family/ ambience is not exactly decided by "Caste" as I see it. Lord Krishna says, " shuchInam shrImtAm gehe yogbhrashtobhijAyte ... athwA yoginAmeva kule bhavati dhImtAm". If we see these two sentences, there is no mention of caste here.


Regarding 'cribbing' ... dear Atanu, alas, I would be happy if today people would crib for being born a brahmin. The reality is, even the brahmins today crib for not being born as SC/ST ! These people are today facing the worst kind of discrimination just on the basis of caste. What is the use of this 'caste' which discriminate you in every walk of life !

Regards.

Namaste Saidevoji,


So why blame the minority brahmins who are in an unenviable position for being born into their caste, especially when a minuscule percentage rigorously stick to their dharma of nourishing the Vedas?

As I mentioned above, there is a need to undo what is being done in the name of caste in this country. I have seen many brahmin families living much below the poverty line devoid of even basic necessities of life, but they don't get any facility, any reservation anywhere. They are discriminated at the time of admission, job & even in promotion in India. This caste system is a curse not against the SCs & STs, it is against the so-called upper castes headed by the Brahmins.

Saying that something can be done only by the Brahmins & not by others is not helping them or the society. It is used as a weapons against them, it is used to fuel passion to bring in more chasm between different castes ... to create vote banks on the basis of caste-discrimination.

There is discrimination in society, in politics, as you say ... I wholeheartedly agree with you. But those are the people, the spiritualists must fight against to end the mindless discrimination. Finally, this society must be saved by someone holding the flag of Sanatan Dharma. Till we leave our fates in the hands of the politicians, nothing is going to change. When the so called Gods of the "dalits" cry hoarse over the so-called, "Brahminvaad" & bay for the blood of the brahmins .... what did the knowers of the scriptures do ? Did they do anything to remove the misconceptions about caste & the varna as per Hindu scriptures ? Any support to any system which discriminates on caste by birth only helps the politicians to keep us divided. This is crime.

Regards,

OM

atanu
27 February 2009, 03:15 AM
Namaste Atanu,


Yes, the birth in a certain family, ambience is an important ingredient it is decided by one's karma. However, this family/ ambience is not exactly decided by "Caste" as I see it. Lord Krishna says, " shuchInam shrImtAm gehe yogbhrashtobhijAyte ... athwA yoginAmeva kule bhavati dhImtAm". If we see these two sentences, there is no mention of caste here.


Regarding 'cribbing' ... dear Atanu, alas, I would be happy if today people would crib for being born a brahmin. The reality is, even the brahmins today crib for not being born as SC/ST ! These people are today facing the worst kind of discrimination just on the basis of caste. What is the use of this 'caste' which discriminate you in every walk of life !

Regards.

OM

Namaste Devotee,

Actually 'kula' does mean tribe, caste, group, etc. jati and kula are synonymous. I have no reason to doubt the veracity and wisdom of sages such as Paramacharya and Ramana -- who were not only non-exploitative but were also the purest advaitins.

I agree fully that the many discriminative connotations attached to jati must be eradicated. Shudra, who are the feet of the Lord, cannot be untouchable and so forth. Also, it is my opinion that a brahmin by birth who cribs at the way of the world is not a brahmin spiritually.

Regards

devotee
27 February 2009, 05:27 AM
Actually 'kula' does mean tribe, caste, group, etc. jati and kula are synonymous. I have no reason to doubt the veracity and wisdom of sages such as Paramacharya and Ramana -- who were not only non-exploitative but were also the purest advaitins.

Namaste Atanu,

May be you are right & I am wrong, but that is the way I see it. But can you tell me, was Maharishi Parashar a Brahmin ? Was Lord Krishna a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Balmiki a Brahmin ? Was Swami Vivekananda a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Ved-Vyas a Brahmin ? Was Mahatma Vidur a Brahmin ? Can anyone tell me even one name among those named above who didn't qualify to learn the Vedas ?


Also, it is my opinion that a brahmin by birth who cribs at the way of the world is not a brahmin spiritually. Yes, but isn't it true irrespective of one's birth in any caste ? Actually, that is what I want to emphasize here. The goal of every man, born in any caste, any religion, any country, any race is to become a brahmin spiritually. Anyone can become a brahmin by his guna & karma & no one becomes a brahmin just by being born in a particular caste/family.

It is ok, if you don't agree. I respect your opinion. :)

Regards,

OM

devotee
27 February 2009, 05:33 AM
Namaste Satay,
There is something wrong here. The posts are appearing twice/thrice, even though posted only once !

There is some bug in the programme.

OM

atanu
27 February 2009, 06:52 AM
Namaste Atanu,
May be you are right & I am wrong, but that is the way I see it. But can you tell me, was Maharishi Parashar a Brahmin ? Was Lord Krishna a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Balmiki a Brahmin ? Was Swami Vivekananda a Brahmin ? Was Maharishi Ved-Vyas a Brahmin ? Was Mahatma Vidur a Brahmin ? Can anyone tell me even one name among those named above who didn't qualify to learn the Vedas ?


Namaste Devotee,

I do not have any difference of opinion there. Earlier also I had stressed the same.

I just pointed out that kula and jati both mean caste and there is no derogatory meaning associated with any of the four divisions, except in human mind. And one's kula is indeed karma controlled (as Shri Krishna says). You may agree that if I were born in a particular kula, I would be better disposed to follow in the footsteps of that kula. Shri Krishna does teach about following the svadharma to excellence.

But that does not debar one to strive and excel in any other field where one's genuine interest lies.


The goal of every man, born in any caste, any religion, any country, any race is to become a brahmin spiritually. Anyone can become a brahmin by his guna & karma & no one becomes a brahmin just by being born in a particular caste/family.

All are purifying their minds continously, knowingly or unknowingly. And Rig Veda says that Soma flows and Soma purifies itself. So, this must be in the Master Plan.

----------------------
I wish to emphasize that I do not disagree that karma decides varna. But on the other hand, we must also agree that karma decides kula also. Both these have been taught by Shri Krishna.

Secondly, anyone can take up Veda, provided such a one finds any juice in Veda. A mercenary of money will not find any juice in Veda. So, prior karma surely primes a sadhaka to acquire the excellent taste and eagerness for the study of Veda/attainement of Self (which is Veda).

Regards

Om

devotee
27 February 2009, 07:35 AM
All are purifying their minds continously, knowingly or unknowingly. And Rig Veda says that Soma flows and Soma purifies itself. So, this must be in the Master Plan.
I wish to emphasize that I do not disagree that karma decides varna. But on the other hand, we must also agree that karma decides kula also. Both these have been taught by Shri Krishna.

Secondly, anyone can take up Veda, provided such a one finds any juice in Veda.

Agreed, Atanu ! :)

Regards,

OM

atanu
27 February 2009, 10:51 AM
Namaste Satay,
There is something wrong here. The posts are appearing twice/thrice, even though posted only once !

There is some bug in the programme.

OM

Namaste Devotee,

Are you using firefox browser? Due to some reason, with firefox this happens. Not with IE.

devotee
27 February 2009, 10:02 PM
Are you using firefox browser? Due to some reason, with firefox this happens. Not with IE.

Namaste Atanu,

You may be right. I normally use Firefox. However, now I don't see the double posts though currently I am using Firefox !

OM

vcindiana
07 March 2009, 10:30 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
I thought to add this for the reader that is following this conversation along. How does 4 varṇa occur? One would think there are 3 guṇa-s why not 3 varṇa?

Kṛṣṇa tells us in the Bhāgavad gītā¹ that at the core of the 4 fold order or division of society (cātur-varṇyaṁ) it is based upon the 3 guṇa-s. That varṇa¹ is the following: brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s.

Yet you have to ask if there are 3 guṇa-s how do you get 4 varṇa? It is based on the 3 guṇa-s primary and secondary combinations. We needn't go to the tertiary or 3rd level because if the 1st and 2nd levels are not possible, the 3 level will not matter.

1. Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
2. Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary

3. Rajas as primary and sattva as secondary
4. Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary

5. Tamas as primary and sattva as secondary
6. Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

Note the 2nd and 5th combinations are not possible due to the drastic contrast of sattva and tamas. This leaves us with 4 possible varṇa that align this way:

brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary praṇām



It is interesting mathematically you try to explain combination of 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas. What if I ask you how about tertiary categories? I have not figured out what would come out then.
Gita ch 4 verse 13 does not clearly say that Gunas are gained by birth and I guess most people rightly think Varnas (Gunas) are not by birth. It would be better each 4 categories has all three Gunas, not just 2 as you mentioned. As an example I myself can attest to that. I have experienced all three Gunas at different times and I am glad I can analyze each situation and learn and grow from each event. I find Gunas are dynamic and are very good learning tools to better myself.
But I am confused that the very Geeta also says in Ch 15verse 8: As the wind carries away odors from their seat even so Jivatma snatching these (Gunas? /Karmas) from the body which it casts off, migrates into the body which it acquires"
Does this mean our first understanding is to be “politically” correct?

Love...........VC

atanu
07 March 2009, 11:27 PM
But I am confused that the very Geeta also says in Ch 15verse 8: As the wind carries away odors from their seat even so Jivatma snatching these (Gunas? /Karmas) from the body which it casts off, migrates into the body which it acquires"
Does this mean our first understanding is to be “politically” correct?

Love...........VC

Namaste VC,

Thank you for the verse.

I do not see any political correctness here. What is IS. It has all along been argued that Gunas carry forward along with Jivatma to its abode and thus is causative for the particular nature of mind and body of the abode and is the deciding factor for the ambience.

It is futile to blame others and the world for one's nature and surroundings, which are included in the Jivatma, which is said to be atomic yet infinite. Jivatma is the Universal consciosness (Universe) endowed with a mind and is a thinker and abides in a location (in object). Paramatma is just the Seer, is not a thinker and does not abide in objects. Consciousness is the same.


Om

yajvan
08 March 2009, 01:30 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste,


VC asks,



It is interesting mathematically you try to explain combination of 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas. What if I ask you how about tertiary categories?


IF the first 2 guṇa-s are complimentary then the 3rd guṇa will reside in the 3rd position.

Yet if the first 2 guṇa are not possible - they are diametrically opposed, then a 3 level guṇa is of little use.

Example ( as given from the original post):

Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary are diametrically opposed to each other, the 3rd position would then be rajas. Yet this combination would be highly unlikely as a varṇa condition.

Note that rajas ( action, movement, motivation) as a first or secondary condition is always possible, no matter if sattva or tamas leads or follows the location. Rajas gives one the call to action - it does not care much if it is sattvic or tamasic.

Brahma's creation - a call to action, creation, expansion
Viṣṇu's maintenance and balance - sattva
Śiva's dissolution - tamas

Yet no matter which varṇa one resides, the 3 guṇa-s are always there i.e. all 3 of these qualities are in every action.
Open and closing your eyes these 3 conditions are met; walking these 3 conditions are met, i.e. you walk, the leg goes forward, then there is a point of balance where there is no walking but balance in one's stride, the mid-point, then this is 'destroyed' and the leg swings back and the other leg comes forward, to the balance point, that is destroyed and it goes forward;
In thinking these 3 conditions are met e.g. there is a thought the comes into being, it is entertained, then is goes away.

You are born, maintain, then die. Yet at each stage of your life, something has to disolve, die, before something new ( growth, intelligence, expansion, etc) occurs.


praṇām

vcindiana
09 March 2009, 09:53 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste,



praṇām

Thank you Yajavan.

I need to know where eactly in Geeta this is clearly explained about the relationship between the 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas.

Thank you again for your insights.

Love............VC

atanu
10 March 2009, 12:00 AM
Thank you Yajavan.

I need to know where eactly in Geeta this is clearly explained about the relationship between the 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas.

Thank you again for your insights.

Love............VC

Namaste VC,

Although I do not understand your need, the below is given the original explanation of the four varnas, which are fundamentally function (task) based.


Book 10, 90. Rig Veda Purusa Sukta



12 The Brahmana was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.


His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.



Om

yajvan
10 March 2009, 03:21 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~




Thank you Yajavan.

I need to know where eactly in Geeta this is clearly explained about the relationship between the 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas.

Thank you again for your insights. Love............VC


Namaste VC,

Atanu-ji has given you good council... yet to answer your question specifically, Kṛṣṇa points out the 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ) in the Bhāgavad gītā, chapter 4 , 13th śloka.


This knowledge is also called out in the Upaniṣad-s and will leave it to your research.



praṇām

vcindiana
11 March 2009, 02:49 PM
Namaste VC,

Although I do not understand your need, the below is given the original explanation of the four varnas, which are fundamentally function (task) based. Book 10, 90. Rig Veda Purusa Sukta



12 The Brahmana was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.
Om

Dear Atanu and Yajavan:

My concerns are different from all the discussions here about the evils of caste system in India. I understand creation of Varna had/has a purpose of assigning a dharma or a function to each one of us. As you pointed out from Rig-Veda Book 10, 90. Rig Veda Purusa Sukta, it is metaphorically describes the individual function of each member of the society for its good. Feet are equally important as mouth. Our excretory organs may be dirtier in their functions but these are as essential as our heart and brain. This message is also carried in the Bible where Paul describes as in the “Body of Christ”. There cannot be hierarchy in this system.

My difficulty is in understanding of putting characters (Gunas) in describing each of these categories. I wondered where in the scriptures it is written Shudras are very much of Tamas characters meaning lazy and uncaring people. Isn’t it these people are supposed to be the labor force of the society? When we start characterizing each Varna don’t you think we are putting the hierarchy back (One is Holier than other) and go against the very principle of Varna?

Geeta mentions Varna is based on GUNAKARMA, a compound word and it does not clearly describe individual characteristics of Varna as Yajavan has elaborated.
My other question is if each category of Varna comes with specific rigid characters then where is the room for an improvement? It is my understanding Guna or the characters are dynamic and ever changing (hopefully for better). Each Varna cannot be put into a nice box of some primary and secondary Gunas as Yajavan tries to explain.

Gunakarma, a very complicated word must have deeper meaning that I have not been able to understand. I am not trying to be blunt here. I am open for better understanding.

Love............VC

yajvan
11 March 2009, 08:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~



Dear Atanu and Yajavan:

My concerns are different from all the discussions here about the evils of caste system in India.
My difficulty is in understanding of putting characters (Gunas) in describing each of these categories. I wondered where in the scriptures it is written Shudras are very much of Tamas characters meaning lazy and uncaring people. Love............VC

Namaste VC,
May I say, perhaps you are missing a fundamental understanding of the guna-s. A review of this may be helpful to you.

Please consider these posts:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24355&postcount=5
Post 5, 6, & 11.

If I do not have an increase in tamas this evening, I will not go to sleep. If I do not have a increase on rago-guna in the A.M. I will not arise. If sattva is not prevelant when I sit to meditate , I will not be able to complete my sadhana.

No one is all one guna ( I think you know this by now)... it is the tendencies, one takes on, in the mix of the human. This is a fundamental principle of Ayurved. It is my assessment you are coining 'good and bad' to the guna qualities.


After reading the above posts mentioned, lets then revisit your POV.


praṇām

atanu
11 March 2009, 11:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
It is my assessment you are coining 'good and bad' to the guna qualities.
praṇām

Namaste VC and yajvan,

I think, yajvan is on the target here. VC's questions are deep and very useful for all Hindus. Very unknowingly, however, VC says there should be no hierarchy in guna categories and yet assumes hierarchy when ascribing tamas to shudras. It is not a peculiarity of an individual but this is very general. I find this in my thoughts most often.

God is known as tAmasa Parastat and not sattwa parastat. Actually, in a round ball of fire, there is no up and down or there is no above and below. Feet (shudras) does not mean the lower in a round ball of fire, but means that which provides support.

That said, I will also like to see some shruti that says Shudra (the feet of purusha) is predominantly tamasa.:) (though I know that the greatest tamasa of deep sleep is indeed the support of all this).



Now it makes me laugh that an upanishad describes Brahman as the tail -- the tail on which we sit. he he.:Roll:

Brahman is the support of all this.

Thanks to VC and Yajvan.

Om

atanu
12 March 2009, 12:06 AM
For dear VC,


Bhgavata Gita



“14:5. Sattva, rajas, and tamas are the gunas originating due to interaction with prakriti. They firmly bind to the body the immortal indweller of it, O mighty-armed.


“14:6. Of these gunas, sattva, thanks to its unstained purity — light and healthy, — attaches by attraction to happiness and by the bonds of relationships (with like-minded people) and by the bonds of knowledge (about the non-important), O sinless one.


“14:7. Know that rajas — the field of passions — is the source of attachment to the earthly life and the thirst for it that binds, O Kaunteya, the indweller of the body by attraction to action.


“14:8. Tamas, born of ignorance, deludes the indwellers of bodies binding them by negligence, carelessness, and laziness, O sinless one.


“14:9. Sattva attaches to bliss; rajas attaches to actions; tamas, verily, destroys wisdom and attaches to carelessness.


“14:10. Sometimes the guna sattva overcomes rajas and tamas; when rajas prevails — then sattva and tamas are defeated; sometimes tamas dominates defeating rajas and sattva.


“14:11. When the light of wisdom shines from every pore of the body, then one can know that in this person sattva grows.


“14:12. Greed, anxiety, urge to act, restlessness, worldly passions — all these qualities arise from growth of rajas.


“14:13. Dullness, laziness, carelessness, and also delusion — all these are born when tamas grows.


“14:14. If at the time of death sattva prevails in man, then he enters pure worlds of men of higher knowledge.



“14:15. If prevails rajas, then he gets born among those attached to action (in the world of matter). Dying in the state of tamas, he will be born again among the ignorant.



“14:16. The fruit of righteous action is harmonious and pure. Verily, the fruit of passion is suffering. The fruit of ignorance is wandering in darkness.


“14:17. Sattva gives birth to wisdom. Rajas — to greed. Carelessness and insanity originate from tamas.


“18. Those who are seated in Sattwa proceed upwards; the Rajasic dwell in the middle; and the Tamasic, abiding in the function of the lowest Guna, go downwards.


.


“14:19. When man sees the three gunas as the only reason of activity, and when he cognizes that which is transcendent to the gunas — then he comes to My Essence.


“14:20. When the indweller of the body becomes free from the three gunas related to the world of matter, then such a person becomes free from births, deaths, old-age, suffering, and partakes of immortality.”
------------------

The effect of Tamasa is to stupefy to dullness. Shri Krishna does categorise tamasa as jaghanya -- i.e. detestible quality. Yet we do not see direct correlation of Tamasa with birth of Shudra. What we see is tamasa correlating with the birth of the ignorant. I, like VC, do not understand how shudra (feet of Purusha as per Rig Veda) can be directly correlated with "THE IGNORANT" and "THE UNTOUCHABLE". May be I have missed something.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
12 March 2009, 12:39 AM
Namaste VC,
From Paramacharya:
------Instead of speaking about the subject myself, I will cite the views of Gandhiji who is much respected by the reformists: "The Gita does talk of varna being according to guna and karma, but guna and karma are inherited by birth." ---------
From Paramacharya
--------Vyasa himself says: "Kalih saduh, Sudrah saduh" (The age of Kali is no way inferior to other ages nor the sudras inferior to other castes. Kali is indeed elevated and Sudras exalted. ) In other yugas or ages Bhagawan is attained to with difficulty by meditation, austerities and puja, but in Kali he is reached by the mere singing of his names. The Brahmin, the Ksatria and the Vaisya are likely to have self pride, so they cannot attain atmic liberation easily. The Brahmin is likely to be in vain about his intellectual superiority, the Ksatria about his power as a ruler and the Vaisya about his wealth. So these three varnas will tend to stray from the path of dharma. A member of the fourth varna, on the contrary is humble. ----------------
----------------------------------Based on the previous post citing Gita, I add that Guna karma is not only inherited by birth, but birth is also decided upon by one's prior Guna-Karma. Thus it is a cause effect relationship like: ------karma-guna-varna-kula-karma-----

Considering shudras (the support of all) as untouchables means using varnasrama of Hindu Dharma for ego satifaction and must be condemned. It is OK to believe that the quality of ignorance is the lowest and untouchable, since it is root of all problems. But it is not OK to say that Shudra is the lowest and untouchable. Sage Vysasa, in fact, says: Sudrah saduh.


Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
12 March 2009, 11:14 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Namaste,

Atanu-ji points out the relevant ideas in post 88 and in 89 points to the śloka-s from the Bhāgavad gītā.

For some reason this 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ) generates great interest… if so ,then we also need to pay the same attention to the 4 stages of life:

brahmacarya - student-hood
gārhastya - householder
vānaprasta - forest dweller ( even with wife)
saṁnyāsa - renunciate.And what of wake, dream, sleep and turiya ?
Where then is the guna-s here and the various combination? Is there undo concern when we consider:

brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary
praṇām

atanu
12 March 2009, 12:58 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
And what of wake, dream, sleep and turiya ?
Where then is the guna-s here and the various combination? Is there undo concern when we consider:

brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary praṇām

Namaste yajvan ji,

Yes. Possibly our guna make up will colour as to what we understand of the above. Whereas, truly, there is no preferential aspect above, except that "Ignorance", a symptom of Tamasa, is the key enemy of enlightment, as per Hinduism. But we know that all Gunas are enslaving, including sattwa.

Probably, this classification that you have presented, is scriptured in some smriti but I find a small problem here. Originally, as per Purusha Sukta of Veda (the only reference in Veda on the subject), shudra represents the function of the feet of Lord, and by no means can be correlated directly to "Ignorance" that Tamasa represents, or with a lower birth, as ordained by Lord for those who are entrapped in Tamasa.

Also, Vedavyasa says: Shudra saduh.


I hope, I am able to make my point clear. And may be with our prakritic spectacle we see too much, because impelled by our own preference we choose sides, when there is no side, but only Brahman and functions of its powers.

Regards

Om

atanu
12 March 2009, 01:21 PM
Namaste yajvan ji,

And may be with our prakritic spectacle we see too much, because impelled by our own preference we choose sides, when there is no side, but only Brahman and functions of its powers.

Regards

Om


I will try to explain it.

God pervades all forms and names equally, being seated in every Heart. Yet, functions of different forms and names are diverse, without much prejudice.

Wood pervades equally a table, a chair and an almirah. Some of us who might have fallen off a chair will curse the chair as untouchable. Some, who have been bitten by bed bugs will curse the bed and so forth.

What to do?:)

Om

yajvan
12 March 2009, 03:00 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~



Namaste yajvan ji,

Yes. Possibly our guna make up will colour as to what we understand of the above. Whereas, truly, there is no preferential aspect above, except that "Ignorance", a symptom of Tamasa, is the key enemy of enlightment, as per Hinduism. But we know that all Gunas are enslaving, including sattwa.

Probably, this classification that you have presented, is scriptured in some smriti but I find a small problem here. Originally, as per Purusha Sukta of Veda (the only reference in Veda on the subject), shudra represents the function of the feet of Lord, and by no means can be correlated directly to "Ignorance" that Tamasa represents, or with a lower birth, as ordained by Lord for those who are entrapped in Tamasa.

Also, Vedavyasa says: Shudra saduh. I hope, I am able to make my point clear. Om

Namaste atanu-ji

Yes, your post(s) are clear and appreciated. The original post (number 70) was for a better understanding of the guna-s i.e. their tendencies, application to varṇa and how it applies e.g. how can 3 guna produce the 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ) vs. 'pigion-holeing' any one group i.e. śudra.

Yes, I have read how the various varṇa are considered different parts of the Supreme - I think this is most excellent and a perfect way to appreciate & consider them.

Yet I write
Is there undo concern ? Why so? Because Kṛṣṇa informs us nistraiguṇo¹ , be without the 3 guna-s.

We are trying to answer VC's questions to his level of appreciation and understanding (manana). Yet the 'full story' is not complete without considering nistraiguṇo.

IMHO this too also requires some reflection and I am hoping VC is considering all the points we have offered for his consideration.

praṇām

words

Bhāgavad gītā, chapt 2 45th śloka
nistraiguṇo = nis + trai+ guṇo - without + 3 + guna-s
manana मनन - thinking , reflection , meditation , thought , intelligence , understanding

atanu
13 March 2009, 06:40 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
Yet I write Why so? Because Kṛṣṇa informs us nistraiguṇo¹ , be without the 3 guna-s.

We are trying to answer VC's questions to his level of appreciation and understanding (manana). Yet the 'full story' is not complete without considering nistraiguṇo.


Namaste Yajvan Ji,

'varna' is expressed hue of Brahman filtered through a veil. Removal of this veil is of utmost importance to reveal the Nirgunam.

Varna means the hue of jiva and Varna also means "veil". It shows the four different ways in which the Divine Self is hidden in human beings. By this, it refers to the ways in which his four body parts make up the four classes, depending on the nature or values that the human holds. The Brahmans hold spiritual and intellectual values and are in charge of teaching the Vedic Sanskrit, thus are made up of his head. The Kshatryas are the warriors that protect the countries and thus are made up of his arms. The Vaishyas are the farmers and merchants in the production nature and thus are made up of his belly and the Shudras are the workers who perform supporting chores and thus are made up of his legs.

The veil is said to impart four types of hues to veiled Brahman as below:

White (sattva = truthful; binds to happiness, bliss) , Red (rajas = energetic; binds to need for action) , Yellow (rajas mixture of red and white) , and Black (tamas = inert, solid; binds to inaction or sloth). These four varnas are said to have some approximate correspondence to the four jatis of Brahman, Khatrya, Vaishya, and Shudra (but I have not found any shruti support to be able to link tamasa-ignorance to Shudra).

--------------------------

(And we also know that a sadhu also appears to be tamasic, to the western-rajasic eyes)


If one studies western (or rajasic) definitions and the categorisation of Hindu society as primarily based on Hierarchy as shown in the cited web page below, a common person will become angry, either against or in favour, of the jati system. This anger against or in favour is totally unwarranted, as you have pointed out correctly, as it reflects the interpreter's own guna-varna mixture.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+in0081)

------------------------------

On the other hand, many Hindus, supposedly knowledgeable, deny very emphatically any role of previous karma towards a birth and thus to jati-kula. They cite Gita in part to prove their point. One such write-up is given in the link below:

http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_051125.htm





In the above write up, the author claims as below:
"There are clear references in the Bhagavad Gita to how “varna” was determined by (“guna”) qualities and (“karma”) efforts. “In sloka (IV.13) Lord Krishna says: "Chaturvarnyma mayaa sristam gunkarma vibhagsah" i.e. four orders of society created by Me according to their Guna (qualities/behaviour) and Karma (profession/work/efforts). Note that there is no reference to “guna” and “karma” of previous life. "The author does not care to read the full Gita, to see that the condition of the birth (any birth for that matter) itself is due to jiva's varna-karma, since varna itself is the veil that hides Brahman and makes Jiva participate in samsara.

------------------------


This thread, originally meant to discuss as to who is fit to study Veda has deviated a lot.

By going back to the subject, we can arrive at another conclusion. As Shri Krishna says that guna-karma decides birth and varna, there is nothing in Gita to indicate that a particular jiva of a particular varna is prohibited to strive towards attaining any other varna of its choice.

The whole of Gita is actually an exhortation to us, irrrespective of our varna, to strive towards sattwa guna and then renunciate sattwa guna also. It is another matter that not all will be able to find juice in Gita/upanishads/Vedas, without some prior preparatory karma.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
13 March 2009, 07:23 AM
The Epilogue

And all this is the effect of the veil, called varna that will need removal to reveal the Nirgunam (nistraiguṇo as yajvan ji has already pointed out). All this categorization and its understanding may help harmonized living of the waking state life but is not important in any other state, least in Shushupti and Turya. All these conceptual ideation of Purusha's parts will also need total washing away, since Purusha has no part.

Rig Veda clearly says that they imparted all these attributes to Purusha; they cut away purusha in parts, they created many types of jantus (animals).


It is the ultimate knowledge that Purusha has no such division but the divisions are attributed to Purusha by THEM (by the sense functions).


Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
22 April 2009, 08:14 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


Namaste,

We have talked about who can learn the veda-s. The original intent was the uplifting story of Satyakāma ( one who desires Truth)
that is found in the Chāndogya Upaniṣad.

Yet over time the conversation gravitated to varṇa¹ ; no matter as some very good conversations manifested from the sharing of
opinions, facts and śāstra references.

I thought to wait to post this, as to not throw more fuel on the fire, but offer it as a perspective only . Many know the following story and
the great teaching that is contained within it.

During Ādi Śaṅkara's stay in Kāśī , the tale is told of his encounter with one cāṇdāla (outcast). As he and his disciples were walking down a narrow lane of the city, they encountered the cāṇdāla . For the social custom of the day it required the cāṇdāla move to one side as to not interfere with the passage of the brahmin's walk. The cāṇdāla was asked to move aside… yet his response to this directive was unexpected. The cāṇdāla voiced the following:
O' distingushed ascetic, best among the twice-born (dvija¹), you have established that the Absolute is everywhere. Who then are you asking to move aside? This body, like yours, is built of food, is intert and cannot move on its own. If you are asking the omnipresent, Pure, anuttara ( Supreme) of which I am the apparent manifestation to move from blocking your way, that too is not possible.
In brief (O'distingushed ascetic) we are the same. Thus, whom are you asking to clear the way for whom?

Ādi Śaṅkara, recognizing the wisdom of the cāṇdāla's words, immediately bowed and acknowledged the truth that came from this cāṇdāla''s lips.


praṇām


words

varṇa वर्ण - class , tribe , order , caste ; outward appearance , exterior , form , figure , shape; color
cāṇdāla चाण्डाल - outcaste
dvija द्विज- twice born; a man of any one of the first 3 classes e.g. a Brahman re-born through investiture with the sacred thread called upanayana
We tend to think of the following 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ)
brahmaṇa-s
kṣatriya-s
vaiśya-s
śudra-s
some also think of the various stages of life:


brahmacarya - student-hood
gārhastya - householder
vānaprasta - forest dweller ( even with wife)
saṁnyāsa - renunciate.

dera2
06 May 2009, 01:51 AM
hariḥ oṁ
During Ādi Śaṅkara's stay in Kāśī , the tale is told of his encounter with one cāṇdāla (outcast). As he and his disciples were walking down a narrow lane of the city, they encountered the cāṇdāla . For the social custom of the day it required the cāṇdāla move to one side as to not interfere with the passage of the brahmin's walk. The cāṇdāla was asked to move aside… yet his response to this directive was unexpected. The cāṇdāla voiced the following:
O' distingushed ascetic, best among the twice-born (dvija¹), you have established that the Absolute is everywhere. Who then are you asking to move aside? This body, like yours, is built of food, is intert and cannot move on its own. If you are asking the omnipresent, Pure, anuttara ( Supreme) of which I am the apparent manifestation to move from blocking your way, that too is not possible.
In brief (O'distingushed ascetic) we are the same. Thus, whom are you asking to clear the way for whom?




Pranam,

I nice story. I have wondered often that even after Lord Krishna extolls a yogi to whom a brahmana, cow, and a dog eating sudra are same, why still some people, citing him, validate the caste equations. I understand when sages speak of varna differences as a natural rule of nature that has to do with difference of functions rather than higher and lower. But most of us, I suppose, must be opposing or supporting the varna (or caste) from states of ego. I suppose, that even those who oppose it, however, practise it in some form or other -- for example the difference between Class I and Class IV servants.

atanu
17 June 2009, 07:20 AM
Namaste Friends

The Asiya Vamiya Sukta does not stop to throw out pickles. Every now and then a line gives a new light as if.

1.164. 39 The rks exist in the imperishable, beyond vyoman (space) where all gods abide.He who does not know the Imperishable, what can he accomplish with the hymn? Those alone who know it sit collected.

It is important to know the abode of the Hymn.

Om Namah Shivaya

ammasanand
16 November 2010, 01:07 AM
om namah sivaya
This is about the story of Satyakama. Is there some explanation about how can agni or diver bird actually speak to Satyakama? May be he understands the language of animals and birds but how could agni speak to him.
with pranams
anand

yajvan
16 November 2010, 12:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté ammasanand


One can look at this in multiple ways yet we must consider the approach i.e. being taught through symbols (saṃketa¹).
Each encounter satyakāma has is a new lesson, insight.


We note in these lessons 4 personalities are chosen to talk of 4 different qualities of brahman - another symbol. 4 personalities X 4 qualities
they point out yields 16 items. This 16 is a symbol for fullness. We find 16 items (usually) in pūja's/yajña. This 16 is considered the
16th tithi - fullness or pūrṇa of the moon soma, the next is called the 16th - total fullness.

This fullness is a key quality of the Supreme, of brahman. Even the notion that satyakāma should not return until the herd grew
to 1,000 is a symbol (see post 6). This 1,000 is the symbol of fullness. To become 'full' in one's knowledge and understanding.

And who are his teachers? It is ~nature~ functioning as the master of satyakāma, of symbols. Consider the following:

ṛṣabha - bull; also defined as the best or most excellent of any kind or race ; I view the bull as puruṣa-rṣabha the ~best~ of
the human race. He talks of dik= diś = quarter or region pointed at , direction , cardinal points N,S,E,W.
He informs that 1/4th of brahman as radiant or prakāśavān ( see post 9). He combines this radiance with the 4 directions as the lesson.
agni - fire , also the sacrificial fire, yet we know of agni as the devatā found in the ved. He is considered the entry point to the
all the devata ; hence our oblations go into the 'mouth' of agni.
He teaches of the 4 regions earth, mid-region heaven and the ocean. He informs that 1/4th of brahman is anantavān or ~endless~, boundless, limitless.
haṁsa - we know as a swan but is also the Universal Self. Note that a swan when in the water, stays above it, its feathers never
absorbing the water, aloof from the water itself. This is how the Self too resides , aloof from the pangs and arrows of action, of life's
ups-downs and mishaps.He teaches of fire, sun,moon and lightening.
He says 1/4th of brahman is jyotiṣmān ~ luminous~, light (of the sun , dawn , fire , lightning ) , brightness.
madguṣṭi or madgu a water-diving bird. This word is rooted in majj defined as dive , plunge or throw one's self into.
What does this have to do with brahman? He talks of the 4 parts (kalā) of prāṇa, eye, ear and mind. We find brahman within us
as prāṇa, eye, ear and mind, brahman 'plunged / resides ' within us.
To this madguṣṭi says brahman is known as āyatanavān or resting-place , support , seat , place , home , house , abode.
Brahman takes His abode, or rests within us. praṇām

words

saṃketa - hint , allusion

yajvan
29 September 2011, 08:40 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


If one reads the 1st post of this string it talks about satyakāma jābala and his desire to be a knower of truth. There is another luminary that I think is worth mentioning that has a ~simular~ background as satyakāma-ji. He is the ṛṣi of the aitareya upaniṣad. His name is aitareya mahīdāsa.

Just as we find satyakāma-ji called out in the chandogya upaniṣad, aitareya mahīdāsa is also mentioned saying he lived to 116 years of age. It is said he was the incarnation of viṣṇu. But what does he have in common with satyakāma-ji ? Questionable lineage.

Its is said he was born of the woman known as itarā. This word itarā means ' the other' ; this suggests this woman as 'the other' and not the legitimate wife of the father. She therefore did not have the rights and privileges of a ~legitimate wife~.

So, as the story goes , one day his father is having a big yajña performed. It is custom for the yajamāna's ( the one who performs and pays for the yajña, and in this case aitareya's father) son to be present and seated at this event. He was denied a seat at the yajña.

This was taken as a direct insult to itarā, aitareya's biological mother. Itarā-ma prays to bhūmi devī ,also known as mahī¹ and asks for atonement. Via her grace she appears and places aitareya-ji on a throne. She then proceeds to teach him the wisdom and knowledge of the Supreme.

He is known as aitareya mahīdāsa. Aitareya means the decendent of itarā his mother, and mahīdāsa is the servent (dāsa) of mahī or bhūmi devī. It is he aitareya mahīdāsa, that has brought the wisdom of the aitareya brāhmaṇa , aitareya āraṇyaka, and the aitareya upaniṣad to mankind.


It would be a great fortune for anyone on HDF to read this most insightful aitareya upaniṣad after knowing this story and the lineage of aitareya mahīdāsa.


praṇām

words
mahī and bhūmi - both names mean 'earth' so she is the devī of earth.

dogra
11 October 2011, 07:57 AM
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/


.
Many examples exist of change of Varnas in Vedic history.
a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.
b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.
d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting.
(Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)
Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?
e. Nabhag, soon of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)
f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)
g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)
h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.
i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.
j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)
k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.
Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.
l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin.
m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.
n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.
o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal
p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.
q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire.
9.
The word “Shudra” has come in Vedas around 20 times. Nowhere has it been used in a derogatory manner. Nowhere it mentions that Shudras are untouchable, birth-based, disallowed from study of Vedas, lesser in status than other Varnas, disallowed in Yajnas.
10.
In Vedas, Shudra means a hard-working person. (Tapase Shudram – Yajurved 30.5). And that is why Purush Sukta calls them as foundation of entire human society.
11.
Since the four Varnas refer to 4 kinds of activities by choice, as per Vedas, the same person exhibits characteristics of the 4 varnas in different situations. Thus everyone belongs to all the 4 varnas. However, for simplicity sake, we refer to the predominant profession to be the representative Varna.
And hence, all humans should strive to be all the 4 Varnas to best of their capabilities, as per Vedic wisdom. This is the essence of Purush Sukta.
The Rishis like Vasisth, Vishwamitra, Angira, Gautam, Vaamdeva and Kanva exhibited traits of all the four Varnas. They discovered meanings of Vedic mantras, destroyed Dasyus, did manual labor and indulged in wealth management for social welfare.
We should also emulate the same.
In summary, we see that the Vedic society considers all humans to be one single Jaati or race, upholds the dignity of labor and provides equal opportunity for all humans to adopt the Varna of their choice.
There is no element of birth-based discrimination of any manner in the Vedas.
May we all unite together as one integrated family, reject the last element of birth-based discrimination of any manner and embrace each other as brothers and sisters.
May we also thwart the designs of those who want to mislead us by making baseless claims of casteism in Vedas and destroy the criminals aka Dasyu/Daas/Rakshas.
May we all come under the shelter of Vedas and work together to strengthen the humanity as one single family.

anamaya
15 February 2012, 09:47 AM
Namaste,

I have a few points to be considered on this topic "Who can learn Vedas?"

The simple and straight answer is anybody can learn Vedas. But the main point is, the word “learn” is used in a very vague manner. If by learning we mean studying Vedas, there is absolutely no bar as there are many books on Vedas and one can learn from them.

If by learning we mean the practice of reciting Vedas which is called adhyayanam in Sanskrit, definitely it is a long process. Recitation of Vedas has been systemized and the purity of intonation of the words (in fact in Sanskrit it is called “sabda” which is not merely a combination of letters but is a combination of sounds) has been maintained by a rigorous practice extending over seven years. This practice is always done orally under direct control of a guru who is well versed. The purity of Veda intonation has been preserved over thousands of years by adhering to strict rules of pronunciation. The same word may be intoned in a different manner in some other context and there are pure sounds which cannot be represented by written letters.

If you have to practice recitation of Vedas you have to enroll yourself into a school which is called Patashala and they have got their own rules and regulations. The prevailing rule is one should at least be born as a Brahmin and has undergone thread ceremony. The course is all grinding full time course of 5 to 7 years to get the first stage completed which is called Samhita. Samhita is simple rendering of verses. The higher courses like Ganapatam, Grammar, Bashyam and other auxiliary subjects require study of another 10 years or so.

If you have to enroll into a Patashala, you have to necessarily fulfill the basic requirements. No one can expect to get admission to Harvard without having the proper qualifications required for a course. All those principles of Human Rights or women’s lib are not going to help a person to get admission to Harvard!

The third aspect of learning Vedas is to understand the highest principles propounded in the Upanishads. The goal of the teaching here is to understand Self and to become a Brahma Nishta, a person who has realized that he is no other than Brahman. The requirement here in the words of Sri Yagnavalkya Rishi when he taught Maithreyi (Bruhadaranaya Upanishad) is “sravanam, mananam and nidhidhyasam”.

Sravanam literally means hearing, but here it is meant in the sense of learning from a Guru orally as stipulated by him. The tradition is a student approaches a Guru with a bundle of palasa twigs and makes obeisance to the Guru and requests for imparting the teaching. If the guru finds the student fit, he will start the teaching.

Mananam is repeatedly thinking and discussing what is learnt and clearing the doubts with the master so that the teaching is fully imparted to the student. If the teaching is not understood in the correct sense it could lead to disaster.

Nidhidhyasam is practicing what is learnt over a number of years. To reach the stage of realizing Brahman one has to practice several stages of meditation, acquire single minded focus, practice ahimsa in thinking, talking and in his actions. Again in the words of Sri Yagnavalkya “the seekers of Brahman wish to realize It through regular reading of the Vedas, sacrifices (yagnas), charity and austerity. They give up wealth, renounce their family and become wandering mendicants leaving all the desires of this world”.
In Katopanishad, Lord Yama clearly tells Nachiketa that it is very rare that a person wants to know about Self, it is rare for such a person to get a guru, it is rare to get a guru who himself realized self and (even after that) it is rare to realize Self.

For realizing Self there is no bar of caste or colour or race. There has been a number of sages who have realized Self and recently we had sages like Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Ramana Maharishi, Seshadri Swamigal etc (the list could be endless as there are number of them residing away from the population) and the last sage known as “Walking God”, Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Swamigal of Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Matam, Kanchipuram, India who lived for 100 years.

There is no system of saint hood being awarded as in the case of Christianity and neither do these sages aspire for it. They are accepted as saints by the masses and the people who come in contact with them.

Now what is their characteristics and how do you identify them? They are normally recluse, do not want publicity, they rather consider publicity as an impediment to their spiritual progress, for them there is no difference between a good person and a thief for, they treat all of them in the same way, they are at peace with themselves and at peace with the world outside. They practice ahimsa and hence even the wild animals are at peace with them. Some of them go naked as they have overcome all the desires of flesh and they are happy like children. Many of the Munis of Jain community are avadhootas, who are naked saints and they are very much respected and admired for their qualities like their win over desire, anger, hunger and other bodily and mental afflictions normal persons undergo. It is difficult to identify a sage who has realized Self.

So to sum up:
1. Anybody can learn Vedas if it for the purpose of understanding Vedic principles. There is no bar.
2. If by learning, one wants to recite Vedas in the traditional way, he has to follow the rules of school for which he has to seek admission. He should be prepared for a grueling full time course of 5 to 7 years so that he becomes an expert in rendition.
3. If it is to understand Vedantic principles and to realize Self, then one has to necessarily seek a competent Guru and undergo the process. Normally it is the belief that one gets qualified even to understand Vedanta after many rebirths with the yearning for studying the subject. This many non Hindus do not accept as they do not believe in rebirths.
Om Shanti, Om Shanti, Om Shanti!

saidevo
16 February 2012, 05:16 AM
namate shrI anamaya.

A comprehensive coverage of the isuses involved in 'learning' the Vedas. This could be of great help to our Western Hindus and those born-Hindus, who often think about or speak out on the issue.

OjasM
16 February 2012, 08:22 AM
namaste Yajvan.
Division of society in varnas which got converted into caste system is a major issue for criticism. Initially varnas were not based on birth.first reference is in the PURUSHA SUKTA in Rigveda ,the purusha is said to be divided into four parts.
BRAHMINS(priestly class)came from his MOUTH.
kshatriyas(rulers soldiers)came from his arms.
vaishyas(traders merchants) came from his thighs.
shudras(labour class) from his feet.

Many see this as discrimination but clear thinking shows-
BRAHMINS WERE MAINLY RELATED TO STUDYING TEACHING AND AS PRIESTS SO SURELY MOUTH WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF THEIR BODY. Even in Bhagwatam one finds reference to mouth being equivalent to their body.
Similiarly arms were important for soldiers and thighs for traders.
But i haven t got why shudras from the feet,may be to show they were base of the society on which the others depended.

OjasM
16 February 2012, 08:35 AM
MANU SMRITI also writes first a little liberally about shudras but later parts have been highly criticised . may be additions were done by higher casts to gain authoratarian positions.
Bhagawad geeta refers that varnas were divine classification made on basis of thir charactaristics and occupation. Bhagwan also says at one place that he is present in both in a brahmina and a chandala(outcaste).
There are also refernces that people changed thier varnas. MAHABHARATA was meant to spread knowledge to lower varnas.
These all are my views and sorry for my English.

yajvan
16 February 2012, 04:25 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


namaste Yajvan.
Division of society in varnas which got converted into caste system is a major issue for criticism. Initially varnas were not based on birth.first reference is in the PURUSHA SUKTA in Rigveda ,the purusha is said to be divided into four parts.
BRAHMINS(priestly class)came from his MOUTH.
kshatriyas(rulers soldiers)came from his arms.
vaishyas(traders merchants) came from his thighs.
shudras(labour class) from his feet.

Many see this as discrimination but clear thinking shows-
BRAHMINS WERE MAINLY RELATED TO STUDYING TEACHING AND AS PRIESTS SO SURELY MOUTH WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF THEIR BODY. Even in Bhagwatam one finds reference to mouth being equivalent to their body.
Similiarly arms were important for soldiers and thighs for traders.
But i haven t got why shudras from the feet,may be to show they were base of the society on which the others depended.

Thank you for your note... even though it is not in vogue to say this I see the value of this division. In our 'new age' many feel slighted that there may be differences in people. At our core we are one, yet as we express the Supreme in our actions we can be many.
The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal - Aristotle



That said, Here is a another view on the matter. We know that the brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s can be found in society.
Just as this cātur-varṇyaṁ ( 4 levels) can be found in society it too can be found in our own selves. This insight comes to us from the writings of śrī siddharameśvara maharāj.

The śudra-s labor and toil - this is a function of the body. To work , act, move.
The vaiśya-s apply the intellect, mind, etc for business and transactions - this is the function found in the subtle
body and the realm of mind.
The kṣatriya-s offer the 'field' and that of destruction of the other two levels ( śudra & vaiśya) - this is the function of the causal body some call 'void'.
This 'destruction' comes every night with the advent of sleep - the mind and body is destroyed as it were, no longer exists in deep sleep.
The brahmaṇa-s offer the highest, wisdom, knowledge. They are above and beyond the other 3 ( aloof as it were) and they do not dabble in the other 3's business. The brahmaṇa is consumed with the Supreme, (rāmaḥ) and let the world go on about its business - This is turīya the 4th , or turīyāvastha¹ and is also part of us.So, pending one's vision and point of view there is much that can be said on this matter.


praṇām

words
turīyāvastha - turīya + avastha or the state , condition, stability of turīya or the 4th.

dogra
20 June 2012, 07:35 AM
Anyone can learn Vedas, God resides in hearts of all beings as per Lord Krishna, are professions are by training not birth.
Manu Smriri is not holy text, and it may well have been corrupted:
http://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-punishment/



Manu Smriti and Caste System
1. Manu Smriti hails from an era when even the concept of birth-based caste system did not exist. Thus Manu Smriti nowhere supports a social system based on birth. Maharshi Manu took inspiration from Vedas (refer Rigveda 10.10.11-12, Yajurveda 31.10-11, Atharvaveda 19.6.5-6) and proposed a social system based on qualities, actions and nature of the individual.

2. This is called Varna System. Now the very word Varna derived from root word “Vrinja” means “Choice“. A similar usage happens in common used word “Varan” meaning “choosing” or “Var” meaning a husband chosen by the girl. This also shows that in Vedic system the girl had complete rights to choose her husband.

3. The biggest proof of Manu Smriti proposing Varna System and NOT Caste System is that in the first Chapter of Manu Smriti, there is mention of origin of 4 Varnas and no mention of castes or gotras. Had caste or gotra been important, Manu would have mentioned which castes belong to Brahmins, which to Kshatriyas, which to Vaishyas and which to Shudras.
This also means that those who feel proud in calling themselves Brahmins or upper-caste by birth have no evidence to prove so. They can at best prove that a few generations of their forefathers used to also call themselves upper-caste. But there is no way to prove that they were upper-castes since inception of civilization. And when they cannot prove so, what right do they have to allege that a so-called birth-based Shudra was also not a Brahmin several generations ago? And that they themselves were not Shudras a few generation ago!