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satay
24 July 2007, 11:51 AM
Namaskar,
This question is for our christian friends on HDF.

Why relationship with God is limited to the 'father-child' relationship only?

Why can't the relationship be like 'mother-child', 'brother-brother', 'sister-sister', 'friend-friend' etc.?

Any thoughts?

Kaos
24 July 2007, 01:10 PM
Namaskar,
This question is for our christian friends on HDF.

Why relationship with God is limited to the 'father-child' relationship only?

Why can't the relationship be like 'mother-child', 'brother-brother', 'sister-sister', 'friend-friend' etc.?

Any thoughts?


Namaste satay,

Although, I am no longer a Christian, I did come from a Christian (Catholic) background, so I can respond to this thread.

The Christian "father-child" relationship is due to the fact that Christianity
is about control. As a father dictates what a child must do and demands strict adherence, absolute obedience to certain commmandments, or else the child is punished and to burn in hell forever.

Whatever happened to the "God is Love" if He allows even one of His children to burn in hell forever?

Christianity is big on control issues in line with "Obey me, or else you die and burn in hell forever".

Whereas the Dharmaic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism) promote inward introspection, and Self-inquiry leading to Self-realization.
It is likened to embarking on a journey, an evolution, until one merges with the Primal Soul.

To the Buddhist, heaven and hell are states of mind.
The Christian does not realize that he is in hell already.

MysticalGypsi
24 July 2007, 10:48 PM
Namaskar,
This question is for our christian friends on HDF.

Why relationship with God is limited to the 'father-child' relationship only?

Why can't the relationship be like 'mother-child', 'brother-brother', 'sister-sister', 'friend-friend' etc.?

Any thoughts?

Well, I am not a Christian friend, but.....In most forms of Christianity you could have the friend-friend relationship on some level. Out of the ones you mentioned, this would be the most accepted in Christianity. Possibly even the brother relationship on some level, in terms of the Christ relationship. Of course, we cannot have any feminine relationships, because that would be giving women too much power. Don't want any uppity women running rampant thinking they are equal. ; )

satay
26 July 2007, 01:47 PM
I often wonder about why there is a 'father' and a 'son' and the 'holy spirit' but there is no 'mother'.
Where is the mother in this divine relationship?

Does God in christian view have both masculine and feminine attributes? Not sure...

MysticalGypsi
26 July 2007, 05:19 PM
No, there is no feminity in the Diety. The Bible and Christianity is a patriarch system. Some even use the Bible to oppress women, although not all Christian denominations. The Adam and Eve thing is the root of it all and it goes downhill from there for women. Adam was supposedly created in God's image. Eve was supposedly created to be Adam's helpmate. And, some denominations (not all and not really most mainstream I would say) interpret Eve as the weaker one for taking the apple.

You know that yummy apple!

Znanna
26 July 2007, 08:39 PM
My father thought he was God.

I spent the better part of my childhood proving to him that he wasn't more exceptional than my comprehension of him.

That really irked him :)



Namaste,
ZN

yajvan
27 July 2007, 05:53 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

My father thought he was God.

I spent the better part of my childhood proving to him that he wasn't more exceptional than my comprehension of him. That really irked him

Namaste,
ZN

Do you think now you would have a change of heart? Perhaps he knew something?

Kaos
27 July 2007, 07:46 AM
My father thought he was God.

I spent the better part of my childhood proving to him that he wasn't more exceptional than my comprehension of him.

That really irked him :)



Namaste,
ZN


Saying "I am God" or saying "I am not God" is the same thing.

Why?

In the words of Sri Ramana Maharshi, "As long as the I-sense lasts, so long are true Knowledge (jnana) and Liberation (mukti) impossible."

atanu
27 July 2007, 08:25 AM
--
In the words of Sri Ramana Maharshi, "As long as the I-sense lasts, so long are true Knowledge (jnana) and Liberation (mukti) impossible."

Jai Jai Ramana. Jai Jai Shiva

satay
27 July 2007, 12:00 PM
Namaskar all,

I suppose my question is this, 'if there is no feminine quality in God and he is only the father and not the mother, then how did he design the first woman?'

There must be some hint of feminine quality in God for him to be able to design the first woman, the seed must have been there somewhere in him. So from this I conclude that since he is the originator/source/designer of woman as well as man that he must himself have had these qualities that man and woman posses and thus calling him father only is an incomplete understanding.

It is strange that the Christian view of the divine is only limited to ‘men’. What about the feminine nature that exists in the universe? What’s the source of this? And perhaps more importantly, what’s the purpose of it? Why was not another ‘man’ created as helpmate of the first man son of God (adam)?

satay
27 July 2007, 12:04 PM
namaskar MG,
Thank you for the post.


And, some denominations (not all and not really most mainstream I would say) interpret Eve as the weaker one for taking the apple.



Yet, I know of no churches that have 'women' priests and 'women' ministers and pastors. Could you point me to any if you know of some from mainstream or any demonination for that matter.

Has there been a woman pope in the history?

atanu
27 July 2007, 12:58 PM
namaskar MG,
-----
Has there been a woman pope in the history?

It was asked why God created Man first. It was answered: Man was the first draft -- imperfect.

satay
27 July 2007, 01:49 PM
It was asked why God created Man first. It was answered: Man was the first draft -- imperfect.

Amen to that brother.
:D

MysticalGypsi
27 July 2007, 05:57 PM
Yes, Master Artists always make many practice models before achieving perfection. : )

Yes, Satay, many mainstream denominations have female ministers, including Methodist, Lutheran, Disciples of Christ, many other common ones. The more fundamentalist sects say no and Catholics of course. Even among the denominations I have mentioned you have your people who leave the church over a woman minister, mostly older people. Younger generations more liberal.

I am telling you, Christianity is a complicated and diverse group and subject. Very broad and varied groups.

MysticalGypsi
27 July 2007, 06:56 PM
Actually, I was curious myself. So, I found this link which is VERY interesting and thorough.



http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg13.htm

satay
27 July 2007, 07:22 PM
Yes, Master Artists always make many practice models before achieving perfection. : )

Yes, Satay, many mainstream denominations have female ministers, including Methodist, Lutheran, Disciples of Christ, many other common ones. The more fundamentalist sects say no and Catholics of course. Even among the denominations I have mentioned you have your people who leave the church over a woman minister, mostly older people. Younger generations more liberal.



Maybe its just me who hasn't seen any women priests or ministers. I am sure the younger generation is more liberal like anywhere else in any culture.



I am telling you, Christianity is a complicated and diverse group and subject. Very broad and varied groups.


sure. thanks. this is probably why there are thousands of denominations, many hundreds of versions of bible and those who oppose some ideas and those who think it is 'liberating' to accept them in new light.

Still what is the intrepertation from the vatican? Have there been women pope?

anyway, my point here is that chrisiatinity doesn't understand the divine completely, why leave 50% of the attributes of nature unaccounted for?

MysticalGypsi
27 July 2007, 11:33 PM
Yes, you will get no argument from me on that point!

Protestants do not acknowledge the Vatican anyways.

I was merely saying with that comment I made: I think many of the anger and irritation that you talk about is actually directed at Evangelicals, which 80% of Christians would agree with you on some of the points.

But, yes I totally agree that not only is it short-sighted to leave out feminine attributes but harmful to women also.

sarabhanga
28 July 2007, 03:50 AM
AVE MARIA, GRATIA PLENA, DOMINUS TECUM; BENEDICTA TU IN MULIERIBUS ET BENEDICTUS FRUCTUS VENTRIS TUI, IESUS.
SANCTA MARIA, MATER DEI, ORA PRO NOBIS PECCATORIBUS, NUNC ET IN HORA MORTIS NOSTRAE.
AMEN.

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.
Amen.

Namaste Satay, et al.



Why can't the relationship be like mother-child?

The Trinity comprises the Father (Purusha or Brahma), the Son (Narayana or Vishnu), and the Holy Spirit (Shiva, i.e. Grace).

The Father remains unseen, but the Son is His manifest incarnation, and the Holy Spirit is the active ingredient (Shakti) that powers this transformation (in both directions).

Creation began with this moving Spirit or Wind on the Waters, and the same Holy Ghost entered into Mary to create Jesus.

The mysterious Holy Spirit is personified and worshipped in the female form of Mary, and Catholic Christians regularly assume a Mother-Child relationship in their communications with God.

Protestant Christians largely ignore Mary, and for them the originally feminine concept “Holy Ghost” has been almost completely obscured.



Does God in christian view have both masculine and feminine attributes?

Is giving birth to the world considered as a feminine attribute?



There must be some hint of feminine quality in God for him to be able to design the first woman, the seed must have been there somewhere in him.

That feminine seed is the Shakti or Holy Spirit that is inherent in the Trinity or Trimurti.



Have there been women popes?

There have long been rumours of a female pontiff ~ Pope Joan ~ but they are not well supported by historical facts. And even if the story is taken as true, it doesn’t reflect very well, since, when it was discovered that this John was actually a Joan, she was promptly stoned to death!

Kaos
28 July 2007, 09:07 AM
There have long been rumours of a female pontiff ~ Pope Joan ~ but they are not well supported by historical facts. And even if the story is taken as true, it doesn’t reflect very well, since, when it was discovered that this John was actually a Joan, she was promptly stoned to death!




The Christians chose to exclude women to be popes. Why, I can't understand that kind of Christian logic.

They got bad male popes instead. :rolleyes:

The Christians excluded women for the papacy, but they managed to
cozy up with Hitler to be on their side, during World War II and at the height of the Holocaust. Some Christian logic indeed.

sarabhanga
28 July 2007, 08:09 PM
Namaste MG,




The mysterious Holy Spirit is personified and worshipped in the female form of Mary.

Protestant Christians largely ignore Mary, and for them the originally feminine concept “Holy Ghost” has been almost completely obscured.

The word used for the Holy Spirit in Hebrew (and Aramaic) is Ruach, and the gender of Ruach is feminine.

This fact has inspired numerous Jewish and Christian groups to consider the Holy Spirit as the “Heavenly Mother” or “Mother in Heaven” ~ notably, some branches of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.




We have a Mother in heaven. And the Mother of God, the Mother of the Son of God, is our Mother. He himself has said so. He made her our Mother when he said to the disciple and to all of us: “Behold, your Mother!”

MysticalGypsi
28 July 2007, 08:44 PM
I was not aware of that. In that US, Mormons are not considered just "Christians" but a separate religion altogether, really.

Besides the Mormon religion, I have never heard this in traditional Christian churches. I am not saying this to argue, but just to clarify because it is very inaccurate to attribute this to most of the mainstream denominations such as Methodist, Lutheran, Presb., yada yada. Do Catholics believe this? Not sure about that. Catholics rever Mary, the Mother of Jesus and I am thinking this might be who they are referring to in this quote. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is "usually" (meaning mainstream, traditional) presented as having no particular sex or male, but is interpreted as the breath of God, or the Comforter, etc.

sarabhanga
29 July 2007, 12:06 AM
Namaste MG,

The Holy Ghost entered into Mary. And this mysterious Holy Spirit is personified and worshipped, by Catholic Christians, in the female form of Mary.

In “Western Christianity”, who determines which devotees of Christ are proper Christians and which are not?

I don’t know what most Christians think about this, but most Christians have been misled by the translation (and repeated retranslation of translations) of their original scriptures. ;)

Ruach in Hebrew and Aramaic is feminine. And the equivalent Greek term Pneumon is neuter. But in Latin translations, the masculine Spiritus is used.

There may be an impression that the Holy Ghost is masculine, but this is only from the dominant influence of patriarchy (and Latin) in the history of the Church ~ indeed, the English Bible (King James Version, at least) gives NO indication of any gender for the “Holy Ghost” or “Spirit of God”.

MysticalGypsi
29 July 2007, 07:02 AM
Namaste:

My point in posting was not to dispute the validity of your theory. I like your interpretation better than the many I have heard.

I was clarifying, in terms of the larger discussion, that this is not a common belief in "traditional" Christianity, in the historical roots of Christianity. Again, with "traditional" Catholics, The Holy Ghost did move through Mary, but that does not mean it took on her gender. And, Mary is revered as herself, anointed. Historically, Christianity oppressed women and repressed religions that women had places of power or equality, such as the pagan religions of Europe.

Plus, let's face it, hardly any two churches can agree on how the holy spirit is defined or how it manifests itself, let alone what gender it could possibly be.

I believe the feminization of the Holy Spirit is a relatively recent phenomenon in Western thought-feminist and some "non-traditional" Christian churches have been offering this idea and also it is a blend of East-West as the two have blended and Eastern thinkers interpret scripture. I am not an expert but have studied Christianity from a historical perspective and the twists and turns it makes as it touches various cultures and is impacted by social and political pressure is fascinating.

I like this interpretation better. I am definitely not arguing against it, because I believe the insistence on a patriarchal system is harmful to women. Interesting discussion.

Kaos
29 July 2007, 07:33 AM
I don’t know what most Christians think about this, but most Christians have been misled by the translation (and repeated retranslation of translations) of their original scriptures. ;)





That is very true.
From my POV, the teachings of Jesus, what the Buddha taught, what Krishna speaks about all point to the same Truth.

The problem is when these teachings which point to a higher Truth, go down to the level of organized religion.

This issue of course, is not confined merely to Christianity. But as to the extent and impact that these misrepresentation and perversion of the original teachings of Jesus Christ, from my POV, organized Christianity is maya (illusion) on a grand scale.

Znanna
29 July 2007, 08:53 AM
Namaste:

My point in posting was not to dispute the validity of your theory. I like your interpretation better than the many I have heard.

I was clarifying, in terms of the larger discussion, that this is not a common belief in "traditional" Christianity, in the historical roots of Christianity. Again, with "traditional" Catholics, The Holy Ghost did move through Mary, but that does not mean it took on her gender. And, Mary is revered as herself, anointed. Historically, Christianity oppressed women and repressed religions that women had places of power or equality, such as the pagan religions of Europe.

Plus, let's face it, hardly any two churches can agree on how the holy spirit is defined or how it manifests itself, let alone what gender it could possibly be.

I believe the feminization of the Holy Spirit is a relatively recent phenomenon in Western thought-feminist and some "non-traditional" Christian churches have been offering this idea and also it is a blend of East-West as the two have blended and Eastern thinkers interpret scripture. I am not an expert but have studied Christianity from a historical perspective and the twists and turns it makes as it touches various cultures and is impacted by social and political pressure is fascinating.

I like this interpretation better. I am definitely not arguing against it, because I believe the insistence on a patriarchal system is harmful to women. Interesting discussion.


Namaste,

Describing that which cannot be known (in an intelluctual aka "masculine") manner but instead only experienced (in an intuitive aka "feminine") manner in terms of words (which are self-limiting and therefore cannot fully encompass the Holy) requires allegory to provoke interpretation, IMO.

I would disagree with you this is a recent phenomenon, however; the Nag Hammadi texts predate, say, the KJV, by a few years :)

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/sjc.html


The Sophia of Jesus Christ


Translated by Douglas M. Parrott


The Holy One said to him: "I want you to know that First Man is called 'Begetter, Self-perfected Mind'. He reflected with Great Sophia, his consort, and revealed his first-begotten, androgynous son. His male name is designated 'First Begetter, Son of God', his female name, 'First Begettress Sophia, Mother of the Universe'. Some call her 'Love'. Now First-begotten is called 'Christ'. Since he has authority from his father, he created a multitude of angels without number for retinue from Spirit and Light."



ZN

MysticalGypsi
29 July 2007, 09:23 AM
Recent trad Christian phenom. ; )

Yeah, I am with you Z.

We were doing just fine before they slapped patriarchy on us, eh?

satay
29 July 2007, 09:25 AM
Admin Note

I have moved some of the posts to another thread as they had nothing to do with the OP and could have derailed this nice conversation to a tangent.

MysticalGypsi
29 July 2007, 09:40 AM
Yes, this is fascinating. I really like this topic. I am learning something also, digging into it.

Here is what Wiki says on Mother Goddess comparitively from different religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess

I do agree, in theory Christianity will say God is both male and female. However, in practice, I have found that it is to be understood that the Trinity is decidedly male and in practice, the Bible is used to establish male leadership. The churches have become more liberal over the years, however.

The pagan and earth religions have been demonized by Christianity which is, to say the least, a travesty. These spiritual practices were/are very beautiful. I still just love this concept:

Neo-paganism:

The Mother Goddess, amalgamated and combined with various feminine figures from world cultures of both the past and present, is worshipped by modern Wiccans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca) and others (see Triple Goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess)). The mother goddess is usually viewed as Mother Earth by these groups. Wiccans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca) and other Neo-Pagans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) worship the Mother Goddess. Most commonly she is worshiped as a Triple Goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess); usually envisioned as the Maiden, Mother, and Crone archetypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetypes). She is associated with the full moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_moon) and with Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth). Many ancient Pagan religions had mother goddesses; it has been argued that the figure of Mary the mother of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_the_mother_of_Jesus) is patterned on these. Even among those who are not Pagan, expressions such as Mother Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Earth) and Mother Nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Nature) are in common usage, personifying the Earth's ecology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecology) as a fertile and sustaining mother.

satay
29 July 2007, 09:42 AM
pranamas!


Namaste Satay, et al.


The Trinity comprises the Father (Purusha or Brahma), the Son (Narayana or Vishnu), and the Holy Spirit (Shiva, i.e. Grace).

The Father remains unseen, but the Son is His manifest incarnation, and the Holy Spirit is the active ingredient (Shakti) that powers this transformation (in both directions).



A beautiful explanation from a hindu point of view, however, I do not think that any christian who believes in the authority of the pope and vatican would buy this or agree to this.

In my humble opinion and with respect, I would say that, at best, a liberal christian would be amused to read this explanation by a hindu yogi and at worst, a fundamentalist christian would reject this as idoltary of the christian trinity by a hindu idoltar!

To my knowledge which is very limited, no christian that I know of (including catholics) thinks of the Holy spirit as mother or with feminine natue. Holy spirit is a neutral and has no gender as far as I know. Its job was to impregnate mary with the seed of divine.

Nuno Matos
29 July 2007, 09:52 AM
Namaste

To be a proper Cristian you must observe the ten commandments from Moses and be in communion with the church this are at last the prescriptions and proscriptions in the Holly Church of Rome. any one can be a Cristian.
The cult of the Virgin Mary inside the Roman Church divides the ones who are close to Gnosis and popular religion from those who follow a scholar and intellectual form of theology more akin to neuter or masculine vocabulary. It has been like this since the early times of Christianity. Now a days with the substitution of the church services in the field of education by secular knowledge the Virgin Mary current is gaining terrain to the more intellectual patriarch view inside the roman church.
And Satay wen the first Portuguese's arrived in India they wore convinced that the Hindus wore Christians already.

Agnideva
29 July 2007, 10:13 AM
Namaste Nuno,


And Satay wen the first Portuguese's arrived in India they wore convinced that the Hindus wore Christians already.
An excellent point. When Vasco da Gama first landed in the Indian state of Kerala, he and his men were taken to a temple of Vishnu by the local ruler. In their writings, they refer to it as a peculiar temple of Our Lady!

Not to mention that there is an interesting consonance in worship of Virgin Mary and Divine Mother (Shakti) in the Goan religion (Catholism and Hinduism) even to this day.

OM Shanti,
A.

Kaos
29 July 2007, 10:52 AM
Namaste

To be a proper Cristian you must observe the ten commandments.




One of the Ten Commandments is : Thou shalt not kill.

Since many Christians are not vegetarian, and even eating plants and vegetables alone involves the death of numerous living organisms, not to mention that a major Christian country like the United States is currently embroiled in a war in Iraq that has resulted in the deaths of numerous lives, then it goes to show that most "Christians" do not even know the true meaning of their religion and therefore, most Christians are improper. :)

sarabhanga
29 July 2007, 10:45 PM
Namaste MG,



Again, with "traditional" Catholics, The Holy Ghost did move through Mary, but that does not mean it took on her gender.

AVE MARIA, GRATIA PLENA ~ Hail Mary, full of Grace.

Why do Catholics place such importance on praying to Mary? Surely it is not just to thank her for giving birth to Jesus. The Holy Spirit (i.e. the Grace) is not seen as passing into Mary and then out again with the birth of Jesus ~ rather, she is full of Grace now and always.

Unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is very difficult to imagine and it assumes all kinds of miraculous forms in the Bible stories. And the Catholic practice of worshipping the mysterious Spirit or Grace of God as personified in the ideal (or idol) of Mary facilitates intimate contact with this nebulous but equally important member of the Trinity.

The historical roots of Christianity surely lie in the original Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek texts, which never ascribe masculine gender to the Holy Spirit. And surely, Jesus himself would have used the Aramaic or Hebrew term Ruach, which implies feminine gender!

I get what you are saying, but I have been trying to show that “western” or “mainstream” (i.e. Protestant) Christianity in general has little understanding of the Holy Ghost.

Kaos
29 July 2007, 11:20 PM
I get what you are saying, but I have been trying to show that “western” or “mainstream” (i.e. Protestant) Christianity in general has little understanding of the Holy Ghost.




Not only do Christians in general have little understanding of what "Christianity" is, they don't even follow it.

As someone mentioned, to be a proper Christian, one must observe the Ten Commandments.

We're talking about commandments, not merely as guidelines.

Since majority of Christians do not pay attention to the commandments, then majority of so-called Christians are "Christians" in name only.

Going back as to why Christians only ascribe a masculine aspect to divinity is again, about control. The Christian missionaries who went to "civilize" foreign lands and cultures were bent on exerting as much authority and control on conquered peoples, including control of their women population...

sarabhanga
30 July 2007, 06:19 AM
Namaste Satay,




The Trinity comprises the Father (Purusha or Brahma), the Son (Narayana or Vishnu), and the Holy Spirit (Shiva, i.e. Grace).

The Father remains unseen, but the Son is His manifest incarnation, and the Holy Spirit is the active ingredient (Shakti) that powers this transformation (in both directions).

A beautiful explanation from a hindu point of view, however, I do not think that any christian who believes in the authority of the pope and vatican would buy this or agree to this ... I would say that, at best, a liberal christian would be amused to read this explanation ...

I assume that most Christians would agree with the following statement:

The Trinity comprises the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The father remains unseen, but the Son is His manifest incarnation, and the Holy Spirit is the active ingredient that powers this transformation (in both directions).

And I assume that most Hindus would agree with the statement:

The Trimurti comprises Brahma (Purusha or Prajapati), Vishnu (Narayana), and Shiva (Agni or Rudra). The Purusha (Prajapati or “the Father”) remains unseen, but Vishnu (Narayana or “the Son of Man”) is His manifest incarnation, and Shiva (“Grace”) or Agni (“Fire”) or Rudra (“the Howler”) is the active ingredient (the “venom” or “poison”) that powers this transformation.

The story is exactly the same, only the names have been changed:

Prajapati ~ the Lord of Creation, the Progenitor, i.e. the Father;
Narayana ~ the Son of Nara (or of the Purusha), i.e. the Son of Man (who is the Son of God); and
Shiva (who is Ardhanarishvara) ~ as divine Grace, Fire, or Wind, i.e. the Spirit of God.

I cannot understand how any reasonable person could fail to see the identity of Trinity and Trimurti.



[The Holy Spirit's] job was to impregnate Mary with the seed of divine.
And when that job was done He went back to Heaven never to be heard or thought of again (at least until He returns to announce the end of the world)!

Is this what the Holy Ghost has been reduced to in mainstream Christian thinking? :(

The Spirit of God is exactly the same as the Grace of God! :)

With this synonymy in mind, the long dead Holy Ghost should take on a more immediate reality. ;)

satay
30 July 2007, 10:00 AM
Pranama!



I cannot understand how any reasonable person could fail to see the identity of Trinity and Trimurti.


I agree completely with what you are saying. However, this has been presented to the christians on CF before. The answer was that Hindus stole the idea of trimurti from christian scriptures. :D



Is this what the Holy Ghost has been reduced to in mainstream Christian thinking? :(


Holy ghost or spirit as I understand still goes around 'priming the hearts of people' so that they can choose Jesus as their Lord and saviour.



The Spirit of God is exactly the same as the Grace of God! :)

With this synonymy in mind, the long dead Holy Ghost should take on a more immediate reality. ;)

Amen to that!

jaggin
15 September 2007, 10:46 AM
Namaste Satay,


I assume that most Christians would agree with the following statement:

The Trinity comprises the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The father remains unseen, but the Son is His manifest incarnation, and the Holy Spirit is the active ingredient that powers this transformation (in both directions).

And I assume that most Hindus would agree with the statement:

The Trimurti comprises Brahma (Purusha or Prajapati), Vishnu (Narayana), and Shiva (Agni or Rudra). The Purusha (Prajapati or “the Father”) remains unseen, but Vishnu (Narayana or “the Son of Man”) is His manifest incarnation, and Shiva (“Grace”) or Agni (“Fire”) or Rudra (“the Howler”) is the active ingredient (the “venom” or “poison”) that powers this transformation.

The story is exactly the same, only the names have been changed:

Prajapati ~ the Lord of Creation, the Progenitor, i.e. the Father;
Narayana ~ the Son of Nara (or of the Purusha), i.e. the Son of Man (who is the Son of God); and
Shiva (who is Ardhanarishvara) ~ as divine Grace, Fire, or Wind, i.e. the Spirit of God.

I cannot understand how any reasonable person could fail to see the identity of Trinity and Trimurti.


And when that job was done He went back to Heaven never to be heard or thought of again (at least until He returns to announce the end of the world)!

Is this what the Holy Ghost has been reduced to in mainstream Christian thinking? :(

The Spirit of God is exactly the same as the Grace of God! :)

With this synonymy in mind, the long dead Holy Ghost should take on a more immediate reality. ;)

I can't say that I have ever taken a poll but I have met a few people with the aforementioned view. I am not exactly familiar with different church doctrines on this but I can say what it appears to be to me from a lengthy Biblical study on this subject.

Although 'Holy Spirit' is a term used in reference to the Paraclete, it is a misnomer. The Father, Son and Paraclete are all the Holy Spirit. The Father is the Holy Spirit not in control of a physical human body, The Son is the Holy Spirit exclusively in control of a human body and the Paraclete is the Holy Spirit in control of the bodies of believers for as long as the believers are willing to cede control to Him

The Christian view would be that divine grace is available through the Holy Spirit, Father, Son and Paraclete.

Although Holy Ghost is used as a synonymn for Paraclete, it is also a misnomer. There was a Holy Ghost in the sense that The Holy Spirit left the body of Jesus but can retain His identification with the incarnation while out of body. However this is only temporal because the resurrection returned the Holy Spirit to the body of Jesus and remains there living to this day. However when a Christian receives the Paraclete He receives Jesus because the name is now inexorably connected to the Holy Spirit.

atanu
15 September 2007, 01:12 PM
----The Father, Son and Paraclete are all the Holy Spirit. The Father is the Holy Spirit not in control of a physical human body, The Son is the Holy Spirit exclusively in control of a human body and the Paraclete is the Holy Spirit in control of the bodies of believers for as long as the believers are willing to cede control to Him

----


Namaste jaggin,

Can we then say that Holy Spirit is the common One, which is seen as trinity?

Om

Znanna
15 September 2007, 02:32 PM
Namaste,

Trinitarianism is a hot topic of debate amongst Christians. The underlying arguments against it are these, as presented by a friend of mine:

Trinitarianism falls short of compliance with all scripture for several reasons:


Collossians 1:15 is very clear that Jesus is a creation. This alone breaks the requirements of coequality and coeternality in traditional Nicene Trinitarianism as well as breaking any other form that calls for Jesus to be as infinite as his Father.
In the Gospel accounts of Jesus' baptism, all three components are present at one place at one time in different forms, breaking Modalism.
Several times in scripture Jesus refers to having been sent by his Father, and doing his Father's will. This subservience is to be expected of a son but flies in the face of any calls of equality.
Passages exist that refer to both God and Jesus being within the same area but in two locations at the same time. In Revelation the Father is enthroned and the son (as the Lamb) stands before the throne.
Yahweh gives Jesus great authority, second only to Himself, in recognition of his role in humanity's salvation. Jesus is given a name that is above all other names (except for Yahweh's) that is so commanding that creation is to do obeisance at the mere sound of the name. That authority has to come from a superior - an equal cannopt give superior authority.
Jesus is the same type of being as Yahweh. Jesus is not as powerful as Yahweh and was given the ability to create by Yahweh.
If Jesus was superhuman in ANY way that regular humans could not also achieve or receive, he would not be a perfect sacrifice for what Adam lost. A God-as-flesh Jesus would render his sacrifice as null and void as a perfect HUMAN life had to be given to replace the perfect HUMAN life that was lost. Note that Jesus' apostles were eventually able to do everything Jesus could as a human. The only thing Jesus could have that couldn't be shared with other humans was his experiences as a spiritual being.


ZN