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Vajradhara
20 April 2006, 01:55 PM
Namaste all,

hmm... there really isn't a forum for this post.. so.. please pardon me for posting it in the Dharma traditions section.

in the spirit of interfaith dialog and understanding amongst the various world traditions.

Parrots and Monkeys:

A parrot can be taught to speak, a monkey can be taught to act; they are able to do these things not because of their original natures, but because people gradually teach them.

What i realize as i observe this is the Tao of seeking teachers and finding companions.

Parrots are birds, monkeys are animals; when birds and animals are guided by humans, they can speak human speech or dance human dances. How much more so can humans, the most intelligent of creatures, ascend to the realm of lofty illumination if they have the guidance of enlightened teachers and the aid of good companions.

If you know enough to submit to enlightened teachers, associate with good companions, sincerely concentrate on clarification of truth, borrow their knowledge to break through your own ignorance, borrow their lofty vision to expand your own ignorant views, then even if you are ignorant you will become enlightened, and even if you are weak you will become strong. Then there is no reason why you cannot become a spiritual immortal and a buddha.

Ignorant students follow their own minds and act arbitrarily. Indugling in guesswork, they consider themselves bright and will not humble themselves. Thus they misapprehend the road ahead. Though they are said to deceive others, in reality they are deceiving themselves. This is looking on the great matter of essence and life and child's play. It is no wonder they strive all their lives with no attainment. Is this not a pity?

Liu-I Ming (1737 C.E. - ? )


in my view, these words are as true today as they were some 250 years ago.

in some respects, it is perhaps worse today than it was when this was written.. for, today, we have the wonderful internet with nearly all the information one could desire about a given topic. thus, that beings remain ignorant of their own traditions, not to mention that of others, seems to be more a deliberate, willful sort of ignorance.... which, to my mind, seems all the more the shame.

metta,

~v

satay
21 April 2006, 12:03 AM
in some respects, it is perhaps worse today than it was when this was written.. for, today, we have the wonderful internet with nearly all the information one could desire about a given topic. thus, that beings remain ignorant of their own traditions, not to mention that of others, seems to be more a deliberate, willful sort of ignorance.... which, to my mind, seems all the more the shame.

metta,

~v[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

namaste Vj,

Very nice post! I wonder if this has anything to do with our karma or is it just laziness i.e. the act of willful ignorance of my own tradition...

ramkish42
21 April 2006, 01:08 PM
Good Post

Mokshedhir gnaanam, anyatra vijnaanam shilpanaipunam

Shilpanaipunam part is excellently explained with Parrots and Monkeys

willie
21 April 2006, 09:46 PM
What of the other side of the coin, where teachers brow beat the students because they can. The instructors who are only teaching because it is required and the only way they can survive to do some research. Or the ones who let the grad students do all the grunt work and only show up to collect a check.

Then there are the diploma mills the sell degrees for a small fee. And the best part of that deal is that noone know about it unless an investigation catches them. What does that say about employee screening processes. Or about the true value of a degree in the first place.

I will say the the internet has enabled people to learn a lot more and faster than most schools. It enables people all over the world to talk to one another about most any subject. And the day of the pretender it comming to a fast end.

People seem to have this idea of an instrcutor taking a few student under their wing and hanging out some great knowledge. Well try taking some undergrad lecture courses and being herded into an auditorium will 200 other people and listening to a lecture , so boring that if the bordom could be extracted it would run most perscriptions off of the market.

Keep the parrots and monkeys comming , at least, they provide some entertainment.

Vajradhara
22 April 2006, 11:50 AM
Namaste Willie,

thank you for the post.

umm... we are not speaking of secular education in this particular thread.. this is a thread on the manner in which a being, seeking religious instruction, can go about it.

metta,

~v


What of the other side of the coin, where teachers brow beat the students because they can. The instructors who are only teaching because it is required and the only way they can survive to do some research. Or the ones who let the grad students do all the grunt work and only show up to collect a check.

Then there are the diploma mills the sell degrees for a small fee. And the best part of that deal is that noone know about it unless an investigation catches them. What does that say about employee screening processes. Or about the true value of a degree in the first place.

I will say the the internet has enabled people to learn a lot more and faster than most schools. It enables people all over the world to talk to one another about most any subject. And the day of the pretender it comming to a fast end.

People seem to have this idea of an instrcutor taking a few student under their wing and hanging out some great knowledge. Well try taking some undergrad lecture courses and being herded into an auditorium will 200 other people and listening to a lecture , so boring that if the bordom could be extracted it would run most perscriptions off of the market.

Keep the parrots and monkeys comming , at least, they provide some entertainment.

willie
22 April 2006, 09:51 PM
I think that buddha said the meditation was like a boat, once you get across the stream why do you need the boat anymore.

Maybe wisdom is gained by checking fact for yourself, rather than believing some self styled teacher.

Vajradhara
23 April 2006, 12:02 AM
Namaste Willie,

thank you for the post.


I think that buddha said the meditation was like a boat, once you get across the stream why do you need the boat anymore.


actually, he said that all Buddha Dharmas are like rafts and, once we have reached the Other Shore, we no longer need any of the Buddha Dharmas.

of course, some beings become quite attached to their raft and are reluctant to leave it behind when no longer needed.




Maybe wisdom is gained by checking fact for yourself, rather than believing some self styled teacher.

Wisdom, in the Buddhist context, is perhaps not what you are thinking it is.

it is, of course, quite correct that Buddha Shakyamuni extolled beings to investigate the claims of all beings and accept them only once they have verified these things for themselves, even his own teachings. however, once that is done and accepted, a being is advised to associate and learn from the Wise.

it is a mistake to think that we can attain the final fruit without guidance from enlightened teachers, in my view. there is a Buddhist parable about the Young and Old Elephants wherein to train the young elephant ( a being new to the Buddha Dharma) it is chained to the older elephant ( a being of some realization) so that it can more quickly learn what to do.

metta,

~v

satay
23 April 2006, 01:05 PM
there is a Buddhist parable about the Young and Old Elephants wherein to train the young elephant ( a being new to the Buddha Dharma) it is chained to the older elephant ( a being of some realization) so that it can more quickly learn what to do.

metta,

~v

namaste,
Actually, I have seen this in practice in India!

willie
23 April 2006, 01:49 PM
It is no wonder to me the people are attached to rafts. Rafts are not much of a floatation device, unstable, hard to to impossible to stir in deep water and no real way to put up a sail. They float like a cork and are just a platform to deep you above water. It the persons journey has been long the get attached to the evil instrument that saved their life.

If I were to get to the other shore I would abandon it in a second, and push it back into the water,some unsuspecting person might trip over it .

As for following the wise, first you have to find this , so called , wise person. Good luck. The ground is littere with the dead dry bones of holymen who have been found lacking, found to be thieves , found to have exploited the followeres. or as the christians say "shearing the flock a little to closely". Better be careful not to be a victim rather than a follower.

This whole buddhist thing looks like a lot of talk, but with no central figure to power to inforce any rules. It is all just a little to circular and who knows what buddha was really like as a perons. All we have are books written by a relative who was not above incorporating good ideas that buddha never came up with.

Vajradhara
23 April 2006, 04:23 PM
Namaste Willie,

thank you for the post.


It is no wonder to me the people are attached to rafts. Rafts are not much of a floatation device, unstable, hard to to impossible to stir in deep water and no real way to put up a sail. They float like a cork and are just a platform to deep you above water. It the persons journey has been long the get attached to the evil instrument that saved their life.


rafts come in all shapes and sizes depending on the time and effort spent to construct them.




If I were to get to the other shore I would abandon it in a second, and push it back into the water,some unsuspecting person might trip over it .


excellent. perhaps, you could let it go back to the shore that you crossed from so that another traveller could use it to cross as well.





As for following the wise, first you have to find this , so called , wise person. Good luck.


it is easier than it may appear, fortunately :)



The ground is littere with the dead dry bones of holymen who have been found lacking, found to be thieves , found to have exploited the followeres. or as the christians say "shearing the flock a little to closely". Better be careful not to be a victim rather than a follower.


fortunately, the Buddha Dharma contains explict instructions for testing a teacher to determine if one should learn from them or not. without this method of testing, i would tend to agree that a being can easily be confused on these matters.




This whole buddhist thing looks like a lot of talk, but with no central figure to power to inforce any rules.


goodness :)

if you are thinking that Buddha Dharma is like Christianity you will end up very confused about it :)

there are plenty of beings which are in authority, it simply depends on what you are looking to find. if one is a Tibetan Buddhist, for instance, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is an authority figure (though each lineage also has one). each monestary has an Abbot and each nunnary has an abbotess.

the Vinaya is well established.



It is all just a little to circular


Buddha Dharma is not an appropriate Vehicle for every being, so if you find it unpalatable, there is no need to partake ;)



and who knows what buddha was really like as a perons.


it seems like you are under the impression that there has only been one Buddha, is that correct?



All we have are books written by a relative who was not above incorporating good ideas that buddha never came up with.

hence, without the understanding of the testing methodologies and so forth, a being will have some difficulty in their investigation.

it really depends on a beings karma and capacity if they can practice the Buddha Dharma or not. if you find Buddha Dharma to be unsuitable for your spiritual progress, then i heartily recommend you investigate another tradition which can suit your needs.

metta,

~v

willie
24 April 2006, 09:04 PM
So this traditions has a way to test these, so called holymen, well it the instructions are written down or passed along you can rest assured that those of evil intent have found ways around the tests. Is essence you have given your position away.

The one big problem with all the people you mentioned is that they are all human and therefore the will, some day, die. And someone else will take over and no matter how close this person followes those who proceeded him there will be changes.

I never thought much of this whole monestary , monk and nun thing in the first place. I think that a person has to live on the real world and face everyday problems not run off to some secluded spot and have holy thoughts. If and individual cannot have those holy thoughts in a city or town while dealing with a normal life then the person is not much of a spiritaul person to begin with.

Vajradhara
25 April 2006, 11:38 AM
Namate willie,

thank you for the post.


So this traditions has a way to test these, so called holymen,


yes, though we don't call them holy men or women.



well it the instructions are written down or passed along you can rest assured that those of evil intent have found ways around the tests.


there is no "way" around the test since the tests are ones of Dharma.



Is essence you have given your position away.


:confused:




The one big problem with all the people you mentioned is that they are all human and therefore the will, some day, die.


which beings have i mentioned? i cannot seem to find mention of any particular beings in this thread.

of course, all compounded things decay, this is the dharma of it.



And someone else will take over and no matter how close this person followes those who proceeded him there will be changes.


ah, you misunderstand.

beings are not our teachers, the Dharma is. for many beings just getting started, their only method to learn of the Dharma is from a teacher.

but, like all expedient means, once no longer required, they are put aside.




I never thought much of this whole monestary , monk and nun thing in the first place.


then i would heartily suggest you not join one! :)



I think that a person has to live on the real world and face everyday problems not run off to some secluded spot and have holy thoughts. If and individual cannot have those holy thoughts in a city or town while dealing with a normal life then the person is not much of a spiritaul person to begin with.


you are free to think whatever it is that you'd like to think. :)

metta,

~v

willie
25 April 2006, 09:22 PM
The more I look at this dharma thing the more it looks like humans don't get an even break. Sort of like playing roulette, the wheel has all the places where the ball can land but the odds are always in the house's favor.

This dharma is lile the roulette wheel, no matter what the bet you don't get an even shot at the prize, you are always just a little at the disadvantage.

Then there is the main problem with dharma and the buddhist take on it. If the whole process is to work then something has to be making a decision. Something has to make the call that the person has advanced enough to get ba better reincarnation, and since there is no spiritual power in the decision making spot, that leaves the whole philosophy a bit lacking.

Then there is the whole problem of the why bother argruement. If there is nothing at the point of reincarnation not being required anymore, then why bother with the whole thing? It is not like you progress to a pure spiritual being, just the end of the line, so to speak. Well in that case it is not wonder that there are so many problems in the world as by comming back and causing problems the piece of spirit keeps its existence going, and the keeps others existences going also. Sort of a perpetual motin machine. Maybe the trouble makers and those who cause us to suffer are in actuality keep the rest of us in existence?

Vajradhara
25 April 2006, 11:48 PM
Namaste Willie,

thank you for the post.

let me say, up front, that this post, though in the Buddha Dharma forum, is actually a Tao teaching. however, this forum has nothing for Taoist teachings, and, since there is some commonality, it wound up here :)




The more I look at this dharma thing the more it looks like humans don't get an even break.


Dharma is concerned with more than humans, it is human hubris which makes humans feel as if the universe revolves around them. this sort of thing is oft found in the Abrahamic traditions, in my experience.

more to the point, perhaps, is that humans get the karma that they sow. just like the farmer reaps the fruits of his crops, so too the human reaps the fruit of their karma. should you not like the fruit, plant different seeds.



Sort of like playing roulette, the wheel has all the places where the ball can land but the odds are always in the house's favor.


gambling analogies are not very appropos here, as this is not a "gamble" nor chance. in the final analysis, however, every sentient being will be a "winner" in your analogy. though it may take more than one arising.




Then there is the main problem with dharma and the buddhist take on it.


are you a Dharma adherent at all?



If the whole process is to work then something has to be making a decision.


what makes the decision for an apple to fall from a tree?



Something has to make the call that the person has advanced enough to get ba better reincarnation, and since there is no spiritual power in the decision making spot, that leaves the whole philosophy a bit lacking.


you realize that there are 4 distinct and seperate schools of Buddhist philosophy, yes?

moreover, karma is a natural law and, as such, requires no lawgiver.

given your phrasing above, it would appear that you are not aware that Buddha Dharma does not teach reincarnation. we teach rebirth, and whilst they may seem the same, they actually are not.

karma follows a sentient being as ones shadow follows the physical form. nothing makes the shadow do this, it is its dharma.




Then there is the whole problem of the why bother argruement. If there is nothing at the point of reincarnation not being required anymore, then why bother with the whole thing?


since reincarnation is not a teaching of ours, there isn't much for me to say here.

however, i shall address the query as much as possible.

why is spiritual practice only valuable after the physical form ceases? why does it have no value in ones current arising? by engaging in the practice of compassion and equanimity, beings can live peaceful and happy lives. that, in and of itself, seems worthwhile.

every moment of arising consciousness is a rebirth of consciousness, conditioned by the preceeding moment and karma. so, if you are not able to accept the rebirth of consciousness after the ceasing of the physical form, there is no worry.



It is not like you progress to a pure spiritual being, just the end of the line, so to speak.


especially since there is no "you" that does any progressing :)



Well in that case it is not wonder that there are so many problems in the world as by comming back and causing problems the piece of spirit keeps its existence going, and the keeps others existences going also.


of course, we don't teach that, either :)

the Sanskrit term you are looking for is "tanha", that is what drives this cycle. though, in truth, we can cut the 12 Linked Chain at any of the links.

metta,

~v

willie
26 April 2006, 09:48 PM
So it is the old song and dance as more philosophys put out.

Well in the world we live in there is some law enforcement and generally that law enforcment is divided into 2 sections. The police , who enforce the law and the court system that does the judgement and hand out the punishment or a not guilty verdict.

Buddhism seem the come up with a police force and expects it to enforce this dharma, but I have yet to see any central figure acting as a judge or a jury. In this case the whole of enforcment is not of much value. The police of dharma can go around enforcing these laws but with out some entity of hand out a verdict there is little use in the enforcememt end.

Human laws have been hammered out over years and are teh force that keeps most inline, because they don't want to suffer the punishment of breaking the laws.


But with this dharma there seems to be no one there to hand out the judgement. So it leaves one wondering how the laws came into existance in the first place?

Apples usually fall off the tree when the sugar content is high and the fruit is ripe. So that hopefully some animal will eat the fruit and transport the seed to another location.

Other wise the apple fall from the tree is there is a problem and the seed is not developing correctly. This interupts the development and the fruits sugar supply is cut off. There is not use wasting resources on some seeds that are not going to mature.

Buddhism seems to be like the unmature seeds , it wants to have a system but with no one to judge who get in and who stays out. In christanity they say , they want the kingdom but without god in it . Well who would want a judge judging them but getting around that is going to be a problem. As it is hard to have a system of rules when no one is in charge of making the rules so in essence you really have no rules.

I say bring back the parrots and monkeys, the parrots can be trained to do tricks that people might pay to see and there by support their care givers. And the monkeys can be trained to work with organ grinders and support themselves and a person to care for them.

Vajradhara
27 April 2006, 12:37 PM
Namaste willie,

thank you for the post and the condsention.


So it is the old song and dance as more philosophys put out.


you are aware that there are many, many different philosophical views to be found in the world, yes?




Well in the world we live in there is some law enforcement and generally that law enforcment is divided into 2 sections. The police , who enforce the law and the court system that does the judgement and hand out the punishment or a not guilty verdict.


i've seen Law and Order as well.




Buddhism seem the come up with a police force and expects it to enforce this dharma, but I have yet to see any central figure acting as a judge or a jury.


wow. you really have no idea what we are on about here.

there is no "police" and no "judge" and no "jury". this analogy is inaccurate and thus, invalid.

we don't have a "central authority figure who determines the correctness or falsness of our practice" that is something for the adharmic traditions to wrangle about.

the individual schools of Buddhism, however, do have their respective authority figures, to wit: His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama.



In this case the whole of enforcment is not of much value. The police of dharma can go around enforcing these laws but with out some entity of hand out a verdict there is little use in the enforcememt end.


:confused:

do you know what karma is? given the nature of your posts, i would presume that you do not.




Human laws have been hammered out over years and are teh force that keeps most inline, because they don't want to suffer the punishment of breaking the laws.


read my signature quote. eh, i'll post it here:



I have gained this from philosophy:
That i do, without being commanded, what others do only through fear of Law.



~ Aristotle




But with this dharma there seems to be no one there to hand out the judgement.



that is correct. no being that sits in judgement is to be found in either the Buddha Dharma or Tao.




So it leaves one wondering how the laws came into existance in the first place?



do you often wonder how gravity came into existence?

karma is a natural law, like gravity and thus, requires no law giver to be operative. it is, essentially, the moral equilivent to natural law of cause and effect.




Buddhism seems to be like the unmature seeds , it wants to have a system but with no one to judge who get in and who stays out.



then i would heartily suggest that you not adopt the Buddhist paradigm, especially if you require a being to judge you :D you will be very disappointed with the lack of judgement in Buddha Dharma.




In christanity they say , they want the kingdom but without god in it .



what are you talking about?




Well who would want a judge judging them but getting around that is going to be a problem.



based on your comments, it seems like it is you that wants a judge to judge them.




As it is hard to have a system of rules when no one is in charge of making the rules so in essence you really have no rules.



since, gravity is a natural law, it really doesn't operate within a known guidelines. :)

honestly, if this is your argumentation, you would be well served to become more cognizant of the Buddha Dharma and the methods in which we use to teach it.




I say bring back the parrots and monkeys, the parrots can be trained to do tricks that people might pay to see and there by support their care givers. And the monkeys can be trained to work with organ grinders and support themselves and a person to care for them.



you have really misunderstood the intent of this post.

however, your misunderstanding points out *precisely* the point of the OP :) in point of fact, i could not have demonstrated the premis of the OP in as successful a manner as you have done on this thread. for that, i do offer you my thanks.

metta,

~v

satay
27 April 2006, 02:19 PM
world traditions.

Parrots and Monkeys:

Liu-I Ming (1737 C.E. - ? )

metta,



meant to ask you about the book. How is 'Awakening of the Tao'? I have read OSHO's discourses on Tao and Tao is something that is very intriguing to me to say the least...difficulty of course...teacher can not be found easily (according to osho)...

willie
27 April 2006, 10:41 PM
The natural law of gravity has to do with physical mass. And in the case of people the larger and heavier a perons is the more gravity they have. The earth has a lot of gravity according to its mass and so attracts people to its surface and the persons gravity attracts the earth to them.

But in spiritual area where there is no mass. this will not work and so something has to cause the person spiritual essence take on another body. However, is this did work then the person's spiritual essence would fall into the first receptacle body that was resent, assuming all were of equal value. Like a ball on a roulette wheel, it has as equal chance of falling into any of the slots. all slots being equal. But if a person actions on earth change its size then it would only fit into certain bodies. Due to a size or shape change. Now being in a nonphysical world this size of shape change would be interesting to observe.

So if in a nonphysical area the size of shape of the object could be modified by actions in the physical area then that is very interesting. If the size of shape of the object, in the nonphysical world, cannot be changed by the physical world then all bodies have an equal chance of recieving the object.


Now I thing is the time to get into how actions in the physical world modify the nonphysical object. Otherwise the nonphysical object will fall into the first physical body, no matter what the previous body's actions were . Unless some other force is responsible for determining where each of the nonphysical go, based on the previous bodies actions.

Vajradhara
28 April 2006, 11:54 AM
meant to ask you about the book. How is 'Awakening of the Tao'? I have read OSHO's discourses on Tao and Tao is something that is very intriguing to me to say the least...difficulty of course...teacher can not be found easily (according to osho)...

Namaste Satay,

thank you for the post.

it is a fantastic book, very concise and too the point. it does, naturally, require a being to have some understanding of Taoist praxis, especially in the Northern or Southern Complete Reality traditions.

however, if there were one book on Tao to read other than the Tao Te Ching, i would have to say that it is the Secret of the Golden Flower.

it is difficult to find Taoist teachers especially if one lives someplace other than China! :) of course, that doesn't mean that they don't exist other places, but you see my meaning.

metta,

~v

Vajradhara
28 April 2006, 12:00 PM
Namaste willie,

thank you for the post.


The natural law of gravity has to do with physical mass.


if this is so, then you should have no problem explaning how gravity works on the Quantum scale.

and if you can do that, you will be awared the Noble Prize in physics, since noboby has yet figured out how this works.



And in the case of people the larger and heavier a perons is the more gravity they have. The earth has a lot of gravity according to its mass and so attracts people to its surface and the persons gravity attracts the earth to them.


so you are saying that Marlon Brando, for instance, has a greater gravitational pull than Charlie Sheen?

why is gravity the weakest of the four fundamental forces yet applies to much greater distances?




something has to cause the person spiritual essence take on another body.


tanha is the cause. however, it is not related to spiritual essence since my tradition holds no such view.

metta,

~v

willie
28 April 2006, 10:25 PM
Well if marlon has more weight then charlie, then marlon has more gravatational pull.

Gravity is weak compaired to the other attractions of physics but it may also be the strongest because if basically keep the universe together.

I think that all this buddhist talk is on shakey ground. Not very well explained on what happen to to make the reentry into at physical body happen and why kharma has any influence on it. So maybe the most important part it the least understood. That is a shame.

Vajradhara
28 April 2006, 11:24 PM
Namaste willie,

thank you for the post.




Gravity is weak compaired to the other attractions of physics but it may also be the strongest because if basically keep the universe together.


curious.. how is something weak and "strongest" at the same time?

what binds the atomically structured universe is the strong and weak nuclear forces, not gravity, the last time i read any of the cosmologies that deal with this. admittedly, that has been a few years ago.




I think that all this buddhist talk is on shakey ground.


no doubt for you are not a Buddhist ;)



Not very well explained on what happen to to make the reentry into at physical body happen


what do you mean? i used a single word to explain it? how much more concise can it get?

besides, why worry about such things? it has little bearing on ones day to day activities.



and why kharma has any influence on it.


Karma/kamma is a well established principle within the Dharma traditions, it is not unique to the Buddha Dharma. if you have an interest in learning our views, there are resources available which would be more appropos than here.



So maybe the most important part it the least understood. That is a shame.

then you have misunderstood what is considered important in the Buddha Dharma.

nevertheless, you are free to investigate these things for yourself and discern what we mean by these terms and such.

metta,

~v

Vajradhara
28 April 2006, 11:27 PM
Namaste willie,

it seems to me that you don't really have much interest in the Buddha Dharma nor Tao and are unable to tell the difference between these two things.

why this is, i cannot say.

however, if you are interested in an actual discussion please let me know as your series of posts on this thread seem to demonstrate otherwise.

metta,

~v

satay
28 April 2006, 11:59 PM
namaste willie,
You have successfully derailed the thread into some meaningless discussion and as such you are breaking rule 2 of the 'Site Rules'. No Trolling.

It is clear that you do not know even the basics of buddhism or Tao. Please do not keep making meaningless posts here if you have a specific question about buddhism and/or Tao please ask Vj and I am confident that you will receive a well thought out answer.

If you continue I will be forced to close this thread. You have already demonstrated the point OP was making in post#1.

willie
29 April 2006, 10:27 PM
Ok, so I am in trouble again , but being in trouble is the natural state for me.

This whole buddhist thing seems to fall apart because there is not central supreme figure the makes the decsion of what body a atman or soul occupies next. And without that karma should have not effect,as without some enforcement rule cannot exist. So fast I have got the one word answer as to how this work. But I would like to see the detailed explanation.

Vajradhara
04 May 2006, 12:42 PM
Namaste willie,

thank you for the post.


Ok, so I am in trouble again , but being in trouble is the natural state for me.


if you perfer the state of being in trouble, then do not modify your actions. if you want to not be in trouble, consider the reasons why it happens.




This whole buddhist thing seems to fall apart because there is not central supreme figure the makes the decsion of what body a atman or soul occupies next.


since these views are foreign to the Buddha Dharma, there is no problem for it except in your mind.

we don't teach the existence of atman or souls, that is such a fundamental and basic teaching of Buddhism that i seriously have to wonder at your intent on this thread. in point of fact, i believe that i've even explained this to you already.




And without that karma should have not effect,as without some enforcement rule cannot exist.


so, because you say so, i should imagine that some being is making things fall to the earth using gravity, but that gravity, without being enforced by some being, wouldn't cause things to fall to the earth.

it is perfectly clear that you do not understand nor, seemingly, have much interest in understanding.

that is fine, however, that is rather different than claiming that such hasn't been explained.



So fast I have got the one word answer as to how this work. But I would like to see the detailed explanation.



when you demonstrate that you have understood the basics, then we can move on to more intermediate discussions. until such time, however, it is a waste of both of our time.

if you have a real interest in learning, you can visit the www.buddhanet.net (http://www.buddhanet.net) site for their "Basics of Buddhism" guide.

metta,

~v

willie
04 May 2006, 09:18 PM
So if all this reanimation is a natural law, like gravity , there should be some way to observe it, other than dying to find out. And since I have not heard of this it makes one wonder if all this is only talk and not much more.

So if some spritual part comes back in inhabit another body it might not have much to do with refining that part. As with not idea of what went wrong before it will be hard to know what has to be done to make up for it. And so, the talk about doing what is right is sort of like a shotgun treatment. It sees to put out the word and hope that by getting some people to follow these rules, that some of the spritual parts can be improved.

I unlike most , don't mind being in trouble. And it might be preferable to going along with the herd.

So to eliminate this whole buddhist idea, just publish the rules to live by and then people came read them and do some application work. The rest of the group can surely find other work.

Vajradhara
05 May 2006, 12:08 PM
Namaste willie,


So if all this reanimation is a natural law, like gravity , there should be some way to observe it, other than dying to find out. And since I have not heard of this it makes one wonder if all this is only talk and not much more.


so, essentially, your argument is one of incredulity. why does your hearing about it have anything to do with it whatsoever? have you heard of gravitrons? how about the No Boundary Proposal? that you have not heard of them does not mean that they do not exist.

the Buddha Dharma is not appropos for all beings.




So if some spritual part comes back in inhabit another body


it doesn't.

i don't really understand why you are ignoring what i'm saying to you here.

i've already explained that Buddha Dharma doesn't have such conceptions or teachings. that you continually try to apply your theistic views to the Buddha Dharma is more telling of your apriori view than anything else.




As with not idea of what went wrong before it will be hard to know what has to be done to make up for it.


if you hold a belife in reincarnation, then you should speak with some Jews or some Hindus regarding it, as it is not a part of the Buddha Dharma.



And so, the talk about doing what is right is sort of like a shotgun treatment. It sees to put out the word and hope that by getting some people to follow these rules, that some of the spritual parts can be improved.


if this is your view, then i would heartily encourage you to continue with your current practice. the Buddha Dharma will offer nothing to you in this regard. the Paramitas are not for "spiritual" improvement. that is more a teaching of Gilgul Neshamot and not related to Buddha Dharma.




I unlike most , don't mind being in trouble. And it might be preferable to going along with the herd.


then your previous statement is unnecessary.




So to eliminate this whole buddhist idea, just publish the rules to live by and then people came read them and do some application work.


to paraphrase Yoda: this is why you fail.

we live in an information age and that you willfully choose to remain ignorant of the most basic aspects of my tradition reveals a great deal about your character and integrity.

there are plenty of sites, and i've linked to a good one, that you can find out the basics of my tradition. your willful refusal to do so, and your lack of understanding or acknowledgement of my corrections to your misunderstandings, is something that you'll have to work out for yourself. it has no bearing or reflection upon anything or anyone other than you.

metta,

~v

Vajradhara
05 May 2006, 12:11 PM
Namaste Satay,

thank you for the post.


namaste willie,
You have successfully derailed the thread into some meaningless discussion and as such you are breaking rule 2 of the 'Site Rules'. No Trolling.

perhaps his posts could be moderated? at our forum, that is the action we take with disruptive beings until they can comport themselves with the forum rules.



It is clear that you do not know even the basics of buddhism or Tao. Please do not keep making meaningless posts here if you have a specific question about buddhism and/or Tao please ask Vj and I am confident that you will receive a well thought out answer.


thank you for the kind words :)



If you continue I will be forced to close this thread. You have already demonstrated the point OP was making in post#1.

indeed, that is correct ;)

metta,

~v

satay
05 May 2006, 12:47 PM
I unlike most , don't mind being in trouble. And it might be preferable to going along with the herd.


namaste willie,
Your meaningless posts have derailed this thread far enough. I have no choice but to close the thread. It is unfortunate because you could have had a great discussion with Vj.

I know Vj for many years and the information you would have received was going to be scholarly to say the least but...