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suresh
27 July 2007, 03:53 AM
Let me clarify that I am in the learning process, so please don't be annoyed or offended by anything I post. I hope learned members can throw some light on this.

According to Karma Theory, good deeds=good results, bad deeds=bad results.

If God can change this equation, not only would it make God unjust, but karma theory would cease to have any significance. On the other hand, if God cannot change this equation, then worship of God would prove futile, as we're going to reap what we sow, regardless of whether or not we worship God. It would make God Himself immaterial to our purposes.

Put simply, if karma is all,then God is not. If God is all, karma has no meaning, so each man can do 'his thing', directly contributing to chaos and confusion.

I'd like to hear from learned members about this.

yajvan
27 July 2007, 06:29 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Let me clarify that I am in the learning process, so please don't be annoyed or offended by anything I post. I hope learned members can throw some light on this.

According to Karma Theory, good deeds=good results, bad deeds=bad results.

If God can change this equation, not only would it make God unjust, but karma theory would cease to have any significance. On the other hand, if God cannot change this equation, then worship of God would prove futile, as we're going to reap what we sow, regardless of whether or not we worship God. It would make God Himself immaterial to our purposes.

Put simply, if karma is all,then God is not. If God is all, karma has no meaning, so each man can do 'his thing', directly contributing to chaos and confusion. I'd like to hear from learned members about this.


Namaste Suresh,
A reasonable paradigm. Here's a couple of things to consider and for others to offer their POV as I have not cornered the market on this karma!

Good deeds are based on dharma, yama and niyama, the sattva of ones actions, etc. - Good deeds give good seeds. When they blossom is another story. Short, medium or long in the timing horizon. As you walk along your day 'seeds' of action fall out of your pockets. They take root. Some grow quickly some not. And some from the past are now being harvested.
God can do as S/He pleases.
If you win favor of Him/Her it is His compassion & grace
Worship is beyond the Love of the shop keeper. Worship is adoration vs. a negotiation. If you only do this for me Lord, I will do this... a negotiation usually is the beginning stages of a relationship.
Worship is only futile if your currency is negotiation.Now the more esoteric consideration to the last part - Karma is the rule of the land a certain stages of consciousness... This cause and effect is trancended at higher levels. They are burnt 'like a roasted seed' says Patanjali muni.

Regarding these higher states: if I throw a ball against the wall it bounces back. The laws of physics do not change, yet the deposits of vasana's within ones being no longer apply. In higher states of consciousness there are no more deposits or seeds for future sprouting. This the liberation one looks for or moksha. ‘Moha’ + ‘kshaya’ = moksha the extinction of delusion is liberation. What is the delusion ? That I am actually the doer, the actor, the author.


What are these vasanas? this post could perhaps help: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=627

"To know the world you forget the SELF, to know the SELF you forget the world". Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj



pranams,

Kaos
27 July 2007, 08:55 AM
According to Karma Theory, good deeds=good results, bad deeds=bad results.

If God can change this equation, not only would it make God unjust, but karma theory would cease to have any significance. On the other hand, if God cannot change this equation, then worship of God would prove futile, as we're going to reap what we sow, regardless of whether or not we worship God. It would make God Himself immaterial to our purposes.

Put simply, if karma is all,then God is not. If God is all, karma has no meaning, so each man can do 'his thing', directly contributing to chaos and confusion.



Karma along with re-birth are one of the things that the Buddha advised his followers not to spend too much time deliberating about, since intellectual knowledge alone does not lead to the end of suffering nor to liberation. Spending too much time thinking about these things, might even drive one to lose his/her sanity. :)


However, for the sake of discussion, most people have a very simple idea of how karma works, which is partly true. Although, simply put, "good deeds = good results and bad deeds = bad results", it is not as simpe as that.

Imagine karma to look like a sytem of interlocking links. It is not necessarily linear and the effects might not necessarily be immediate.

When "karmic" (action) seeds are sown, these seeds ripen "(result) when the conditions are right.

The fruit (result) of a deed done today, whether "good" or "bad" will manifest when conditions are right.

Thus, we sometimes see, a "good" person encountering misfortune, or a "bad" person, winning the lottery, etc.

Karma is action.
Action with the corresponding reaction is cause and effect.
There is no escape to this universal law, whether one believes in karma or not. Karma will get you, sooner or later.

This has nothing to do with a "God" being able to change the equation, or whether "God" is just or unjust or has anything to do with "prayer" or "worship".

After all, to whom do you pray?

satay
27 July 2007, 10:06 AM
namaste,
I am not a learnt member of HDF by any means, shape or form. However, I have thought about this question before and came to a personal realisation. This is how I have answered this question to myself. Not sure if it will help...

'Kramer' in one seinfeld episode says, 'don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time'. But our situation is such that we can not remain inactive. Action is happening even in inaction or inactive state. such is our condition in this loka. God has offered the solution...'do all action without thinking of the results and offer all actions to me'. This is very deep but I can't go there...because I lack the intellectual capacity to comprehend this fully. So my simple mind has simplified Lord's words to this:-

Karma or action we can not stay without, its results we can not live without. Where there is action there is reaction, law of physics. God's part in this equation is to make the results of 'bad actions' blunt. If we win his favour like Yajvan has mentioned, he/she can make the results blunt, not eliminate the results but make them blunt so that we don't suffer as much. This is his grace or krpa or kirpa.

I don't know what happens to karma/action when one transcends to higher level of conciousness. That experience to me is unknown for now.

sm78
27 July 2007, 10:39 AM
Namaste Suresh,

As far as what God can do ~ our dharma puts no restriction on his infinite abilities. His thought is creation, his will maintains it and his sleep can end the creation.

He can certainly change the said equation. So there is no contradiction.

The question "Will" he change the equation cannot be answered, for once you know how he makes his decision, per haves Karma doesn't exist any more.

atanu
27 July 2007, 12:38 PM
---
According to Karma Theory, good deeds=good results, bad deeds=bad results.

If God can change this equation, not only would it make God unjust, but karma theory would cease to have any significance. -


Hehe,

Your equations are fine. But can you find a person who will say "I have done bad deeds?" And then who will decide how bad and how good a deed is? And who will decide the equivalent punishment (or reward)?

Hehe,


Om Namah Shivaya

Agnideva
27 July 2007, 08:15 PM
Namaste Suresh,

I agree with what other members here have said. Karma is a very complex subject, and interconnected with samsara at every level. In Sanatana Dharma, we approach the topic of karma from the individual’s level simply because it is easier to understand. Here's my way of thinking about this topic:

It is classically described that the fruits of one’s actions, good or bad, create impressions (samskaras) on the inner sheaths (koshas) that bind up the individual entity. Now, just like we have the capacity to accrue fruits of karma, we must also have the ability to remove them.

In Sanatana Dharma, we are often told: do this, do that, chant this, pilgrimage here, and your karma will be burned off. Some of these may seem silly. In truth, however, all these things help, but the way in which they help burn off your karma is by conditioning your mind so that you can work out karmas yourself. If we think of our accrued karma as mental entanglements, then all these things are ways and means to help us free ourselves from those entanglements.

The same is true for prayer and worship. Prayer and worship of God (external meditation) can facilitate or expedite the mindset in which you can burn the karma off yourself. It is not that God favors some people who are praying all the time, and decides to negate their karma.

All Sanatana Dharma practices including prayer, chanting, worship, meditation, etc. are aimed at conditioning us unto a mindset that promotes realization. And, part of being realized is learning how to work out one’s karmas (and how not to accrue fresh ones). Even those beings who are fully realized (i.e. jivanmuktas) many times, therefore, continue to live in the body to quench any left over karma before they enter into moksha after dropping the body (videha-mukti).

OM Shanti,
A.

willie
27 July 2007, 08:56 PM
You pretty well hit the nail on the head. With karma god is relegated to the side line and it is also like original sin. You might have though you got away free, at birth, but you did not.

People call it complex because it is an out moded idea and tied to reincarnation, after all you may have to come back as other people a lot of times to get all the bad karma taken care of . I will wonder what the vedas, the small part we have, have to say about it?

atanu
28 July 2007, 02:38 AM
-----
People call it complex because it is an out moded idea and tied to reincarnation, after all you may have to come back as other people a lot of times to get all the bad karma taken care of .---

Willie,

Possibly, God also finds it tough to comprehend what you say.

suresh
28 July 2007, 06:09 AM
This has nothing to do with a "God" being able to change the equation, or whether "God" is just or unjust or has anything to do with "prayer" or "worship".

It has everything to do with it. The whole idea of God (as also devotion to Him) will vanish if, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, "karma will get you sooner or later."

suresh
28 July 2007, 06:23 AM
Namaskara Yajvan,



If you win favor of Him/Her it is His compassion & grace

Winning his grace...is that also the result of karma? If so, it's no longer grace, because it comes in the field of cause and effect. If it isn't, then it'd make God partial.


Now the more esoteric consideration to the last part - Karma is the rule of the land a certain stages of consciousness... This cause and effect is trancended at higher levels. They are burnt 'like a roasted seed' says Patanjali muni.

This is not related to my earlier q, but it does present a problem. Because if there's an area of consciousness untouched by the laws of karma, who's experienced it?

And the person who's experienced it...how did he live to tell about it? If he remains in the body to do so, that means there must've been some residual karma, which in turn means he hasn't transcended cause and effect, the state beyond the laws of karma. And if he hasn't, how can he suggest that cause and effect is transcended?

suresh
28 July 2007, 06:26 AM
Namaskara sm78,



The question "Will" he change the equation cannot be answered

Whether or not it can be answered, there are only two possibilites, either he can or he can't. If the former, it'd render karma theory meaningless; if the latter, it'd render God Himself powerless.

suresh
28 July 2007, 06:30 AM
And then who will decide how bad and how good a deed is? And who will decide the equivalent punishment (or reward)?


Does someone have to decide that fire burns, or that the result of touching it would be a burnt finger? A law is a law, regardless of whoever agrees or disagrees.

atanu
28 July 2007, 06:47 AM
Namaskara Yajvan,

---This is not related to my earlier q, but it does present a problem. Because if there's an area of consciousness untouched by the laws of karma, who's experienced it?

And the person who's experienced it...how did he live to tell about it? If he remains in the body to do so, that means there must've been some residual karma, which in turn means he hasn't transcended cause and effect, the state beyond the laws of karma. And if he hasn't, how can he suggest that cause and effect is transcended?

Nice arguments that I have encountered often.

The lofty one, who has experienced the pure consciousness called Turiya has to die? Experiencing Turiya, one has to stop living? Or remain as per your expectation?

One who has transcended cause and effect is not in bondage and is omniscient whether embodied or not. Such a one can take a body to teach. Else, the knowledge of Turiya imparted in scriptures would not exist.


Does someone have to decide that fire burns, or that the result of touching it would be a burnt finger? A law is a law, regardless of whoever agrees or disagrees.

Yes, if you did not get the burning sensation and pain you would not know. And that apparatus of knowing you have not created. That is God.

Moreover, there are beings who do dharana of agni. They are not affected by agni. Why the difference? People react differently to same situation. So, do not say law is a law, by your rule.


Turiya is transcendetal to such so-called law. Turiya's consciousness, called Sarvesvara, is the architect of the laws.

Om

atanu
28 July 2007, 06:50 AM
Does someone have to decide that fire burns, or that the result of touching it would be a burnt finger? A law is a law, regardless of whoever agrees or disagrees.

So for any transgression of the law, a person can be burned in fire? eh? Who takes care of the appropriateness of a reward or punishment? Niyati and Kala among other powers are the chief powers of God. One cannot equate Karma Vs. God.


Om