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yajvan
27 July 2007, 02:16 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste,
This has much to do with several conversations of late, and I thought I would offer this for examination.

Have you ever considered why Krsna chose to teach Arjuna the Truth while on the battlefield? Krsna is the Lord of this Universe and could just have easily 'willed' Arjuna to go fight and save the 700 verses of the Bhagavad Gita for another time, perhaps even another sisya.

While it is proposterious of me to even think I know what was on the Keshava's mind, I do see the teaching of His way.

When we look at our lives, we often wonder how free are my choices? Here, the conversation between Arjuna and Krsna ( some think these two are Nara and Narayana) helps us with this understanding.

In ones life, as reflected in ones birth chart, there are several houses ( bhava's) that are called Upachaya. That is, they grow over time. The affairs of these houses are , in part, influenced by the choices we make as we exercise this free will we are afforded in this life. So these houses are about 1/3rd of all the houses in ones chart. One of these houses, a Upachaya, is the 6th house, that of enemies among other things. And why is Arjuna and his brothers on this battlefield? To fight his enemies. Being a 'free will' house, Krsna most clearly understands this.

He is respecting the 'system' he has installed in the universe and respecting the free choices that are possible to humans , as represented by Arjuna.

Hence Krsna does not instruct Arjuna until asked to do so. From this point Krsna is offering the wisdom of the ages to his Disciple. He is allowing the intellect of Arjuna to process the information and make choices as a human being. This is the Lord's gift to us, this is an example of His grace. This ability for us to choose is a gift vs. being cajoled like a farm animal to return to the stables using a stick.

Chapter 2 of the Gita is quite profound. Giving Arjuna insights on the workings of life. Yet in Chapter 3, Arjuna asks, 'tell me what is most beneficial for me'. By Arjuna's own free will he asks Hari what is best.


Now it is interesting to me that these upachaya's are 1/3rd of ones chart. The other 2/3rd's then suggest past actions that have made , that will come to pass in this life or a future one, the influence of your family on your condition, all these other things. But this precious 1/3rd of the houses, allow you to choose is the Blessing in ones chart.

This is how I see the Love of Ksna for Arjuna and the Family of man. Choice, then reaping the rewards or challenges originating from that action.

pramans,

Kaos
27 July 2007, 05:35 PM
Wonderful post.
A very good reading on Chapter 2 of the Gita. Thank you, Yajvan. :)

willie
27 July 2007, 08:44 PM
That is one way to look at it. But another way is that if you have a free will system, then god can only give advice and then sit back and see what happens. And no mind reading to get a sneak peak at the decision, either.

yajvan
28 July 2007, 08:48 AM
Hari Om
~~~~

That is one way to look at it. But another way is that if you have a free will system, then god can only give advice and then sit back and see what happens. And no mind reading to get a sneak peak at the decision, either.

Hello Willie,
Good insight... yes, this makes sense...one point hidden in this teaching is that of patience and compassion. Ksna did not push even though he can make anything happen. He even went to the King Dhristarashtra and his son Drona, to appeal to their intellect to stop the war, for them to exercise common sense. Yet they chose not to do this. Krsna at any time could have made them 'all go away' in a instant. Yet he respected the free will that is innate within the human condition.

Huge lesson here on the physics of the Divine...


Thanks for your post Willie, good comment.

pranams,

atanu
28 July 2007, 09:21 AM
That is one way to look at it. But another way is that if you have a free will system, then god can only give advice and then sit back and see what happens. And no mind reading to get a sneak peak at the decision, either.

For Yajvan Ji,

This is an excellent post. Yet, as noted by you, Willie has pointed out a good thing.

I wish to add.

Shree Krishna also said: Arjuna whether you want or not, you will fight, propelled by your gunas. The whole knowledge, I feel, is centered around "Know that you are not the doer."

Yet, it is also true that through encounters mainly with perceived enemies (6 th house), death experience (8th house) and dissolution (12 th house), the grace dawns. I would not say that these are freedom houses but that they lead one to the knowledge of freedom. This is my POV. All other views are agreeable to me.

Total freedom is not possible for the guna bound. Guru Ramana says that one is fully free to worship/meditate and for no other act, till for whom is the destiny is known.

Om Namah Bhagavate Shree Ramanaya

yajvan
28 July 2007, 09:48 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Total freedom is not possible for the guna bound. Guru Ramana says that one is fully free to worship/meditate and for no other act, till for whom is the destiny is known.

Om Namah Bhagavate Shree Ramanaya

Namaste Atanu,
thank you for your post and I see the logic you use. Fair statement... the gunas act within the field of the gunas.

As this freedom discussion does come up regularly I see your point of view. From a joytish perspective, the Upachaya houses are the 3rd, 6th, 10th and 11th and driven by choices, some say freedom of choice, some say liberty. There are finer differences, and I think liberty fits best.

The 6th was in play with Arjuna - that of service, enemies, etc. But it also is for debts, yes? Who owes the debt to the Pandava? Who has unjustly taken what was not theirs? The 6th is at play. The sixth is a dusthana, and one of obstacles. We can see the amount of obstacles the Pandava encountered all along the way. But the beauty of the 6th ( IMHO) is that is of service ( to Krsna in this case) and favorable results from competition e.g. the war. Now, what is the implication? Arjuna chose Krsna for his side and did not care about all the other warriors he could have taken ( as did Drona). So the 'liberty' of action to choose Krsna as his chariot driver - a very wise choice.

I like the notion that you brought up on the 12th as that is the house of endings. It plays a big role in the Mahabharata. The 8th too, as that indicates length of life, and for many, this length of life ( Karaka is Sani,Yama) came to a halt (endings) on the battle field.

I think we are in agreement on this 6th house notion and pick. Thank you again for your valid points and insight.

Om namo bhagavatye vasudevaya

Jigar
09 August 2007, 09:35 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste, Krsna is the Lord of this Universe

pramans,


Namaste yajvan,
how can you say Krshna is the lord of the universe when their is Brahma, who is the ultimate creator? Above all else, givin the universes' abilities, their is always the chance of a brahma who is permamently invisible.

maste nam,
jigar

yajvan
09 August 2007, 10:26 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste yajvan,
how can you say Krshna is the lord of the universe when their is Brahma, who is the ultimate creator? Above all else, giving the universes' abilities, their is always the chance of a brahma who is permanently invisible.
maste nam, jigar

Namaste Jigar,
A reasonable question.... Brahama is the creator, no doubt, Visnu, maintains, and Siva destroys- this is usually considered tri-murhi. And you are ok with Brahama not being Brahman from a rhetoric position, yes?

To get into Kesava's presence , Kesava is not only one with beautiful hair but ka= Brahma + a= Visnu + isa = Siva. One can call on the scriptures, and the 5th veda, the Mahabharata and the 700 verses of this vast knowledge to point to Krsha as even the source of Brahma, yet it will lead to points and counterpoints. If others wish to go deeper , I am asking for your assistance to round this out.

Below I submit the following for your consideration; look to Chapt 10 of the Bhagavad gita, the cream of the Veda's -
Chapt 10 sutra 3 ( please take a look),
yo mam ajam anadim ca
vetti loka mahesvaram
asammudhah sa martyesu
sarva-papaih pramucyte

Then if your interest is continues, Chapt 10.8 - "I am (Aham) the source of all (sarvasya) ; everything emanates from Me ...

Then Chapt 10.12 to 13 and listen to what Arjuna says , you are param brahma ( the para or Supreme Brahman ); Why does Arjuna carry any weight ? Arjuna and Krsna are Nara and Narayana. Well who says? Mahabharata...

Arjunabhigamana Parva
"Vaisampayana continued, ' [Arjuna] having addressed Krishna thus, the illustrious Pandava, who was the soul of Krishna, became dumb, when Janardana (Krsna) saying, 'Thou art mine and I am thine, while all that is mine is thine also! He that hateth thee hateth me as well, and he that followeth thee followeth me! O thou irrepressible one, thou art Nara and I am Narayana! We are the Rishis Nara and Narayana born in the world of men for a special purpose. O Partha, thou art from me and I am from thee! O bull of the Bharata race, no one can understand the difference that is between us!'


My friend Jigar -I leave the reading and comprehension to your good nature and intellect.



pranams,