Cleaning up your hosue

[satay]

I think many of the anger and irritation that you talk about is actually directed at Evangelicals, which 80% of Christians would agree with you on some of the points.


Point well taken, however, I would like to make clear the wrong impression you have of the OP. The OP is not made in anger or irritation. The OP is a valid observation of a student (me) of Christianity. Your comment is in line with the general attitude we can see of even from hindus. Just because I am questioning something doesn’t mean that I am angry or irritated.

To answer your comment, if 80% of Christians oppose evangelicals activities, they certainly have a weird way of showing their opposition i.e. I don’t see any action from these 80%. Silence is acceptance…

[MysticalGypsi]

OK, Satay, I won't argue with you on your attitude.

As far as people not speaking out. They do. You won't find many door to door activities in the US. People do not like it and tell people so. Plus there are ordinances and the like. Evangelizing is no more welcome here than in India. Actually, evangelicals feel the need to evangelize to other Christians who do not agree with their strict interpretation in many cases, esp to Catholics (which does not go over well. ; ))

Interesting, the Holy Ghost as female. This is not Western Christianity but brings up an important point. I noticed this on the native american reservation. Whatever culture the evangelicals are operating in, is the back drop for how their message is perceived. Cultural differences always persist and the message is never the same. So, I suppose you could say, from their goal, they actually generally fail in their task. For example. many native people would "Accept christ" but also keep all their other dieties or beliefs, just adding Jesus to the mix. Same way with Hindu background. You were raised to accept the feminine so you can interpret it this way. There is always a Hindu influence on the message, which I personally like.

[satay]

OK, Satay, I won't argue with you on your attitude.

Seems that I have managed to confuse you once again. You are free to argue with me on my ‘attitude’. Many have done this before. There are threads on this forum that either others have started or I have started myself. Please feel free to dig them up and contribute to the discussion there.

To clarify, I was talking about the ‘attitude’ of people jumping up and down and shouting ‘ahimsa’, love, tolerance etc. as soon as they see a hindu questioning something and labeling him or her ‘hindutva’, angry and irritated etc., especially if they question another religion like christianity. This ‘attitude’ was what I was commenting on, however, I digress.



As far as people not speaking out. They do. You won't find many door to door activities in the US. People do not like it and tell people so. Plus there are ordinances and the like. Evangelizing is no more welcome here than in India. Actually, evangelicals feel the need to evangelize to other Christians who do not agree with their strict interpretation in many cases, esp to Catholics (which does not go over well. ; ))


In my humble opinion, this is not good enough. Cleaning up your house and throwing your garbage in the neighbour’s front and backyard is neither responsible, nor pleasant. Throwing your garbage on the neighbour’s land to clean your house is also not environmentally friendly, if you follow what I mean. Basically, the westerners are paying the churches to export the garbage they don’t want, to the nations in Asia. And in Asia since India is the only nation that will allow the garbage in the name of tolerance and some of nations like china won’t even allow these people in, India gets the most of it.

I will encourage you once again as I have done in the past to do your own research on missionary activity in India and not take my word for it.

[MysticalGypsi]

Satay, do you seriously believe that some Christians are paying money to other denominations to go to India to get rid of them? This is a wild idea.

Each denomination supports their own activities, so these missionaries are collecting money from their respective evangelical denominations.

Unfortunately, most Americans probably do not even know this is going on. And, people come and go freely. You cannot force anyone to stay or go in America.

[Kaos]

From my POV, Christian missionary activities not only in India and elsewhere should be banned and rejected with the same passion as military recruitment on college campuses.

[Kaos]

Unfortunately, most Americans probably do not even know this is going on. And, people come and go freely. You cannot force anyone to stay or go in America.




Americans must learn to recognize organized Christianity for what is, and that it is garbage. Not the original, core teachings of Jesus, but as to what his teachings have been misrepresented and perverted, to be and packaged abroad for export, in the form of Christian missionary activities.

Therefore, as it is improper for someone to dump garbage at one's neighbors' backyard, the garbage of organized Christianity in the form of Christian missionary activities must be curtailed and banned from being "exported" to other countries.

I don't see Hindu or Buddhists missionaries going door to door in America, trying to convert people. So, why should Christian missionary activities be welcomed in India and elsewhere. Would you allow the garbage truck to unload it's garbage contents on your frontyard?

Christian missionary activities is all about gaining control. Subtle though it may be, but the gaining of control and power nevertheless, be it from prospective "lost souls" deemed needing conversion or to the equally lost followers contributing money to support these missionary activities.

Dharma on the other hand, requires inner work, an inner transformation. Dharma does not depend on missionary activity for the individual to realize the Truth.

Christian missionary activities conducted by the various Christian denominations is but a sanitized version of Muslim conversion by the sword.

[MysticalGypsi]

Well, I agree totally. I am not saying it should be allowed. I am not sure you are reading my posts. I am saying, how do you control it on an international level. I mean, in theory, yes, I agree. But, think about technically, logistically, how would you do that? I mean, look at the insanity with just simply issuing a passport. If you were going to regulate evangelism on a national or global scale, Who would try the cases to see if they are gulity? Which country? How would you negotiate varying laws between countries? Who would set the definitions and standards for criminal behavior?

My argument here is not for evangelism and I am kinda lost how people are getting that message. I am saying that it is not realistic to hold a country responsible for controlling it's citizens abroad, esp not a free country like the US. And, logistically, I would say it is impossible.

Plus, I really think it is a wild notion that I or any of my neighbors could control a group of missionaries, in say NY, ready to go abroad? Or that there is some sort of actual conspiracy to send people abroad to get rid of our garbage?

What needs to happen is that countries need to pass laws against soliciting & trespassing, just like the US. I mean, really that is the only solution to the problem. And, I would say a necessary one to avoid violence.

[Agnideva]

Namaskar Kaos,

From my POV, Christian missionary activities not only in India and elsewhere should be banned and rejected with the same passion as military recruitment on college campuses.
Some argue, quite effectively I may add, that conversion by force or coercion is a violation of human rights. When people go door to door or randomly approach a stranger trying to convince him/her to accept a particular religion – that too is a form of coercion.

As far as banning missionary activities go, it is not possible (or at least very difficult) to ban such activities in democratic systems really. There’s always the issue of religious freedom, which I do not disagree with. Some Indian states have banned conversion by force or coercion, but I am not sure how effective these bans are because laws are only as effective as their enforcement. Sometimes these bans are also figure into partisan politics, where one party places the ban, and the next party to take over revokes it.

Early on, it was largely the Catholic church which was proselytizing in India, now a large chunk of the proselytizing is from evangelical groups, which proselytize even to Indian Catholics. A couple of years ago, the American preacher, Benny Hinn, went to preach in Mumbai. Hindu groups obviously protested his public stadium preaching. Interestingly, Catholic bishops of India also joined in the protest.

This phenomenon is not unique to India. In Latin America also evangelical groups have been preaching to the traditionally Catholic population and there has been a rise in evangelical following there too.

Regards,
A.

[MysticalGypsi]

Exactly. That is why you have to define behaviors other than evangelizing. Such as trespassing on private property or solicitating in public areas or permits for large gatherings. We had this problem in the US on all sorts of topics historically, even politics, etc.

[Znanna]

Namaste,

I am of the opinion that we will defeat these Theo-neo-cons here at home. To my eye, the mixture of Evangelicals, politics, think-tanks and bankers is quite insidious but their own hatred and egocentricity is now resulting in their structure *already* crumbling - their own obsession with "Revelations" is now being expressed in their mass exposure for who and what they are, at every turn.

It ain't pretty, and I suspect it will get downright ugly before all is said and done.




ZN

[Agnideva]

Namaste MG,


My argument here is not for evangelism and I am kinda lost how people are getting that message. I am saying that it is not realistic to hold a country responsible for controlling it's citizens abroad, esp not a free country like the US. And, logistically, I would say it is impossible.

I admit I don't know too much about the subject. But, I think the idea that US and its citizens at large are somehow sponsoring, funding or facilitating missionary activity abroad comes from two observations:

1. Much of the funding for evangelical missionary activity comes from the US. This is known.

2. Some have a theory (others might call it a conspiracy theory) that the American president, who is a born-again Christian, is covertly supporting these activities, monetarily and morally.

Now, I agree that the US as a nation nor all its citizens are not to be held responsible for these activities (unless #2 is proved true). However, the evangelical groups and their large support base in the US which openly raise money for 'saving souls' abroad are to be held responsible.

OM Shanti,
A.

[MysticalGypsi]

Most of America does not really support this. I can say 100% that evangelicals do NOT have wide support in the US. The popular funding is coming from evangelical associations. I think it is a fallacy to even say America is even a Christian country any more.

Now with Bush, anything goes, but I would say that he is more interested in money. Usually politicians play the religion card for votes, and are really not that religious. However, again, with the Bush administration, who knows?! I certainly would not be surprised about any corruption I hear of! I would shy away from this theory simply because I doubt Bush really care about conversion in the least.

[satay]

The way to control export of garbage is simpler than it seems. Instead of shouting and screaming about 'how can I control this', 'it is out of my contorl', why not take responsibility just like we all do for the environment! Just like to save the environment everyone must take a step at a personal level so should everyone take a step at controlling the christian missionary garbage from export to other countries.

The way to do this is to stop contributing money to the church. With all the 100% christians who are against the christian missionary export of garbage, it should be a matter of months if not within a year, this business of exporting garbage can be put a stop to.

It is simple to point fingers and say 'I can't control this huge problem' yet all a christian has to do is 'stop contributing money to the church'.

Instead of saying 'I am against it', 100% christians are against it, show some action...that would be more fruitful.

Stop contributing money to church and other organizations that rape other cultures in the guise of 'helping the poor'.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Satay

It is not so simple! I recommend you the reading of " American Gothic" a book by William Gaddis.

[Kaos]

America is still considered to be a predominantly Christian country, whether in terms of the number of people who consider themselves "Christian" or simply by mere perception alone.

The motto, "In God we trust" is still printed in U.S. currency. This "God" clearly has a Christian connotation. The subliminal message is that America is a Christian nation. Otherwise, if that is not the subtle message that the government is trying to convey, then, the motto "In God we trust" should be removed once and for all.

If the U.S. government considers "In God we trust" as a reference to some "Universal" God, then they should have no problem with replacing it with something like "In Buddha we trust" or "In Krishna we trust" so on, so forth...but they won't, because they want to maintain the status quo, thus the subtle message, of "keeping America Christian."

Going back to the issue of exporting missionary activities.



Part of the problem from the U.S. side of the equation is that most Americans claim to be "Christian", but most do not even know what their Christianity is all about, let alone practice it seriously.

So, here is a fundamental root of why the activities of Christian missionaries is very difficult to stop from the U.S. side. People in government is drawn from the population, and if you have a mass of unenlightened people, you have a cadre of unenlightened government leaders. :)

From the Indian government side, they have to be firm and show confidence in implementing policies to curtail and ban the activities of Christian missionaries.

I believe China and even Israel have taken steps in that direction, therefore, why not India?

Also, recognizing a problem is one thing. Effectively dealing with it is another.

Consider cigarette smoking. While many Americans are already aware of the harmful effects of cigarette smoking, their government allows these very same harmful cigarettes to be exported to other countries particulary in Asia, to be consumed by the gullible, in the name of capitalism.

Why?

Because the average Joe Schmoe doesn't care much about anything further than his narrow field of vision, whether it be religion, politics, global warming or the fact that we are all interconnected. He doesn't care, so government doesn't care. And when he finally starts to care, it's probably too late...

The garbage we throw on our neighbors backyard will somehow bounce back to us, sooner of later.

[Agnideva]

Namaste All,


Most of America does not really support this. I can say 100% that evangelicals do NOT have wide support in the US. The popular funding is coming from evangelical associations.
I think this is true. They (evangelicals) get more attention because they make so much noise, so we are left with the impression that most American Christians are evangelicals or silent supporters. But, I suppose that the evangelical associations have enough funding to support missionary activities elsewhere.

Now the question I have for you (and others) with regards to what Satay is saying about not contributing money to churches is whether mainstream denominations are independently engaged in proselytizing? By mainsteam, I mean non-evangelical protestant denominations. Obviously, one denomination would not help others monetarily.


I think it is a fallacy to even say America is even a Christian country any more. This can get a little tricky. In the sense of official religion, America was never a Christian nation. It has always been a country where a majority is Christian, and still is. Then again, like Kaos said, references to God in the pledge of allegiance “one nation under God” or “in God we trust” on our money no doubt are of Judeo-Christian connotation. Anyway, those who argue that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and should remain so are the same ones who protest when a congressman takes his oath on the Qur’an or when there is a Hindu invocation in the Senate.


However, again, with the Bush administration, who knows?! I certainly would not be surprised about any corruption I hear of! Hehe, you said it ;)


So, here is a fundamental root of why the activities of Christian missionaries is very difficult to stop from the U.S. side. People in government is drawn from the population, and if you have a mass of unenlightened people, you have a cadre of unenlightened government leaders.
Because the average Joe Schmoe doesn't care much about anything further than his narrow field of vision, whether it be religion, politics, global warming or the fact that we are all interconnected. He doesn't care, so government doesn't care. And when he finally starts to care, it's probably too late... Well put Kaos! The average Joe Schmoe doesn’t know or care about anything until it affects him directly. If suddenly missionary activity in Asia and Africa affected gas prices, then everyone would begin to care. I think this is true everywhere in the world.


From the Indian government side, they have to be firm and show confidence in implementing policies to curtail and ban the activities of Christian missionaries.

I believe China and even Israel have taken steps in that direction, therefore, why not India?

Also, recognizing a problem is one thing. Effectively dealing with it is another. Indian politics is very dirty and muddled, and effective governance is a rarity. I hope our members from India can comment on the Indian political side, but my (perhaps biased) perception is that some of the political parties do not want to take any such action.

OM Shanti,
A.

[MysticalGypsi]

Yes, I should have clarified. I know "officially" America is still Christian. I meant that the majority of people who call themselves Christians are not really that religious. And, the "unofficial" religion in America is materialism!

The key to understanding this is to realize a lot of these posts are stereotypes on Christians. They have an element of truth but simply do not hold up factually. Actually, I finally understand where some of the comments are coming from. I think a lot of stems from a lack of understanding of American culture. Americans are notoriously self-centered and apathetic. : ) Just the idea that a majority of American Christians really would care about converting people of other nations is quite literally comical if you live here. I mean no disrespect by that but refer to what is really going on. I know the missionaries are very visible over in other countries, but they do NOT reflect American culture. Those people are extraordinarily passionate about conversion, that is why they are there.

I guarantee you Satay that the majority of Americans are definitely NOT giving to missionaries. : ) Seriously, I am stunned that there is that conspiracy theory rumor out there. Stunned. You have to be pretty "Holy Roller" to even get into the whole evangelizing thing. Most people steer clear. There is a lot of wealth in America and a lot of wealthy churches giving to evangelism maybe. Christian television draws some money in. I don't want to minimize what is going on in other countries, but it is a small far Right wing element of society doing this. But, seriously, the idea that a large number of Americans are giving to evangelism across denominations is not true.

I would like to offer some morally lofty reason why most Americans are not a part of this, but the reality is that like people from a lot of cultures, they are raising their families, worrying about what affects them and that is it. Probably what will hurt America the most in the future years, is the notion that nothing exists but America. ; )

[MysticalGypsi]

Oh and if Bush is really a born again Christian, I will eat my hat. ;)

A strong voter base for him is the religious right. 'Nough said.:)

[yajvan]

Namaste All,


I think this is true. They (evangelicals) get more attention because they make so much noise,
A.

Namaste,
Its not so much the noise, its they do not practice what they preach and get caught at bad behaviors, yet ask you for money to do Gods work.
Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Marvin Gorman, Ted Haggard, Jim Whittington (money laundering), etc etc. the list is substantial.
That is on one side of the coin as evangelists go.

The other side of the coin?
The Catholic church has paid out over $2.2 billion in fines and legal fees for their priest's bad behaviors. Many moved around from one parish to another as the Cardinals and Bishops tried to hide their embarrassments.
Just last week in Los Angeles, a $660 million settlement, with 521 people that were taken advantage of by priests as children came to a conclusion.

How many collections [donations] does it take for the parishioners to fund this poor behavior ? 440,000,000 collections at ~ $5.00 per contribution.

This is the greatest test I have ever seen to practice ones faith. Jesus would say to turn the other cheek and forgive...


Christians are the majority in the USA...76.5% so say the statistics.
Non-religious/secular 13.2% ( up 110% over the last 10-12 years)
Judaism 1.3%
Islam 0.5%
Sanatana Dharm 0.4% (up 237% )

pranams,

[MysticalGypsi]

Now the question I have for you (and others) with regards to what Satay is saying about not contributing money to churches is whether mainstream denominations are independently engaged in proselytizing? By mainsteam, I mean non-evangelical protestant denominations. Obviously, one denomination would not help others monetarily.
.

Well, I was trying to find some statistics, Agniveda, but I cannot find anything that I consider non-biased.

Door to door evangelizing & other strong arm methods, you will only find in the evangelical churches. This, I believe, is the main problem area. These denominations are VERY passionate, zealous, animated about conversion. This is not the case for mainstream denominations, who in general feel uncomfortable about such overt displays.

As far as con artists, we have them here as well. I would say ANY denomination, including evangelicals, would be very upset to know their missionaries were running scams or fake miracles, the like. Remember these are devout people. They really want to see people truthfully and purely come to Christ.

As far as mainstream denominations they will give money for aid relief and other things, like food, medicine, etc. And, I grew up in one of these churches, and I can say the intent is pure, without evangelizing. I think that is why Satay's stereotypes rub me the wrong way. There are some very good, kind people who really just want to help other people, and respect other religions as well. A lot of mainstream denominations adopt the attitude that by example show Christ's love. If people ask, tell them. If they don't ask, show them love and respect that.

[MysticalGypsi]

Actually, Catholics are not turning the other cheek. The Catholic Church is in big trouble. And, dont forget, Jesus tore up the temple when he found corruption there. He was jusifiably angry.

[MysticalGypsi]

With any religion, you can pick out activities or individuals and run it down. I still really say...it is still a stereotype and hurts people who do not fit that mold, who may be genuine. I think it is against dharma.

People do this, it is behavior I have seen again and again. A Hindu gets arrested for sex with an underage girl, and people from other countries wonder why all Hindus are after young girls. Is this fair? no. Is it accurate? no. Should we strive to see each individual as a new slate that we can learn from? yes. A Christian is known to be running scams in India, so people from other countries wonder why all Christians run scams to convert. Etc.

On and on and on with religions, race, ethnicity, and the world just gets more polluted with misconceptions and hate. It is just so obvious to me that we have to guard our minds from prejudice.

[satay]

namaste,

Instead of making aligations about this and that and the other thing, and feeling sorry for yourself and expecting pity, why not simply do this one thing...

When you encounter a christian that says, "jeez, I am against all this missionary activity in other countries and how missionaries are raping other cultures, it is against the teachings of the Lord." Make a simple request..."please stop contributing money to church"

It is a simple request for action. Lets give those christians who have good hearts a way to put their money where their mouth is.

It is easy to say, "I don't like what missionaries are doing", it is another thing to act and do something about this.

Stop giving your money to the church. Simple as that...

[satay]

I guarantee you Satay that the majority of Americans are definitely NOT giving to missionaries. : )

Okay MG, I take your guarantee for what it is worth.

Thanks,

[Agnideva]

Namaste Yajvan,

The Catholic church has paid out over $2.2 billion in fines and legal fees for their priest's bad behaviors. Many moved around from one parish to another as the Cardinals and Bishops tried to hide their embarrassments.
Just last week in Los Angeles, a $660 million settlement, with 521 people that were taken advantage of by priests as children came to a conclusion.
How many collections [donations] does it take for the parishioners to fund this poor behavior ? 440,000,000 collections at ~ $5.00 per contribution.
Yes. The Catholic church is definitely in big trouble, having to shell out billions of dollars in settlements. Also, it is suffering from a priest shortage. In some places, the Catholic Church has begun importing priests from Asia.


Christians are the majority in the USA...76.5% so say the statistics.
Non-religious/secular 13.2% ( up 110% over the last 10-12 years)
Judaism 1.3%
Islam 0.5%
Sanatana Dharm 0.4% (up 237% )I saw these same figures a while ago. When the Christian population is divided up, the percentage of Catholics has remained constant between 1991 and 2001 (roughly 25% of Americans, I believe). In terms of numbers, the largest increase is the non-religious/secular group which has grown significantly in the same period. If I remember correctly, the increase in the non-religious/secular group represented a slow percent-wise decline in the Protestant denominations.

OM Shanti,
A.

[mirabai]

Speaking of evangelical Christians there was a documentary released some time ago which exposed a most loathsome tactic in building their "army" for Christ.

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

The most disturbing aspect is, (imho) utter silence from the "moderate" groups of Christians and Catholics as well.

[Kaos]

With any religion, you can pick out activities or individuals and run it down. I still really say...it is still a stereotype and hurts people who do not fit that mold, who may be genuine. I think it is against dharma.




I respectfully disagree.
That is not the point in these conversations. To me, it is about bringing things out in the open. In the light of scrutiny. For the same reason, that one cannot accuse the news media of being "hateful" when it exposes a criminal wrongdoing.

Obviously, most Christians do not even know what "Christianity" stands for, let alone practice it.

The small minority of devout, Christians with good intentions are short-changed by the vast majority who call themselves "Christians" but are in fact, Christians in name only.

As mentioned before, during the Holocaust, the vast majority of Christians including the Christian Churches were silent while Hitler carried out the extermination of Jews, etc.

Why were the Christians silent?

Because they don't even know what "Christianity" means.

Jesus taught: "Thou shalt not kill."

And yet, Christians killed untold numbers of unbelievers during the Crusades, and all through the period of colonial imperialism.
During World War II, Adolf Hitler carried out his policy of extermination with the blessings of the German Church.

Jesus taugh: "Love one another as you love Me."

And yet, even today, hate filled groups such as the KKK, and the Westboro Baptist Church, promote their hate filled agenda in the name of Christ.

Support for Bush and the war in Iraq is largely carried out with the blessing of the neo-conservative, right-wing Christian Church.

A Church that is supposed to teach the commandment: Thou shalt not kill.






...it is still a stereotype and hurts people who do not fit that mold, who may be genuine. I think it is against dharma.



Buddhist Dharma relates the motivation behind an action.

Motivation usually makes the difference between "good" and "bad", but along with it is also the aspect of ignorance.

A well-intended action from a deluded mind can also be "bad" in the sense that it creates unpleasant results. Similary, silence or non-action due to ignorance can also create unpleasant results.

Therefore, a Christian who is silent in the face of an unjust war implies tacit approval.

A Christian who contributes money knowing that much of it will be spent to settle pedophile priest cases, and missionary activities to coerce and convert people is giving tacit approval.

[satay]

Namaste MG,


As far as mainstream denominations they will give money for aid relief and other things, like food, medicine, etc. And, I grew up in one of these churches, and I can say the intent is pure, without evangelizing. I think that is why Satay's stereotypes rub me the wrong way. There are some very good, kind people who really just want to help other people, and respect other religions as well. A lot of mainstream denominations adopt the attitude that by example show Christ's love. If people ask, tell them. If they don't ask, show them love and respect that.

Could you please cite some names here of such organizations for information purposes?

Regarding you personally attacking me, my attitude and intent as well as accusing me of sterotypes, I will ignore your personal attacks for now and encourage you once again to do your own research and try to understand the problem by dropping your own stereotypes. I realise that you have hard time believing my word since I am just a simple hindu voicing my opinion, perhaps you would consider the opinion of a hindu scholar?

Dr. Frawley




There is a consistent use of social upliftment and charity to promote conversion. While social upliftment and charity are very good things, they should be separated from religious conversion. If you want to raise up a country and help them economically, please do so, but do not bring religion into it. When you put the picture of Jesus everywhere obviously religion and conversion are part of your motivation.

You will note that no country in the world has been raised up economically by religious conversion. What has made Japan a great country economically and what made the United States a great country economically are economic means, not a change of religion. Christian countries include some of the poorest countries in the world. The Philippines is the most Catholic and the oldest Christian country in Asia. It remains one of the poorest countries in Asia and has one of the greatest gaps between the rich and the poor.


http://www.hinduvoice.co.uk/Issues/18/Prajna.htm

[satay]

The key to understanding this is to realize a lot of these posts are stereotypes on Christians. They have an element of truth but simply do not hold up factually.


This implies that you have looked at the facts. Could you please share with us your research so that all can see...



Actually, I finally understand where some of the comments are coming from. I think a lot of stems from a lack of understanding of American culture.

To the contrary, I am not accusing Americans of anything. I simply replied to your post (#2) where you said that in america we do not tolerate evengilicals etc. The problem in my opinion is not Americans or american culture but those all over the world who contribute to the church and its missions of exporting the garbage.

And yes, I only have been living in canada for twenty years and have a lack of understanding of American culture but that's beside the point.

Please try to undersand the point by putting aside the personal biases you have against me and yajvan.

My point remains the same after 29 posts on this thread. I am starting to think that we are playing 'bring me a rock' so unless there is new information that should be examined there is no point in continuing...

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=12562&postcount=1

[sm78]

Hi MG,

Most of Indian problems have root in indian politics and the missionary activities is not different. I agree with you fully on the point that America cannot be blamed (to a extent maybe, but very little). Unfortunately Indian polictics has gone to the dogs and when politics is doomed then everything else including religion is bound for the same fate.

I certainly don't blame america or anybody else for my own short comings.

However Mr Bush indeed had made additional provitions and this is known. I think US sponsors development activities in LDC countries (incl India) through NGO's. Bush I think made a legislation to offer these funds to religious NGO's. In paper religion is a broad word ~ in practice it means Evangelicals.

But then Bush will go and another may or may not come. India and Hinduism will continue to suffer unless we decide our destiny.

[sm78]

To all those who are accusing foreign funds and foreign hands in missionary activities.

Have you meet any of these evangelicals who are destroying our culture and religions ?? I have...and all were Indians, in color, in behavior, in talk and everything else. We have seen Indians taking up false ahimsha, communism, naxalism and now christianity with one goal of destroying the very foundation he stands on.

Guys the problem is with us, our greed, our disrespect for truth and respect for dishonest means. We must realize this and make personal efforts to stand above it. We cannot (most of us cannot rather) effect the mass and change the course of Indian politics ~ but we can give a little push each day in thought, deed and action. All problems lie in that nest called politics ~ all else are mere distractions.

[Kaos]

Whether the participants involve Western missionaries or their local counterparts, the fact remains that Christian coercion, conversion and control, which is a relic of colonial imperialism, in it's modern guise as Evangelical missionary activities actually keeps a country mired in poverty and largely under-developed.

A very good example is the Philippines.
Being the only largely Christian country in Asia, after 300 yrs. of Spanish colonialism, and inspite of being at one time a U.S. colony, the Philippines remains among the poorest countries in Asia, because the Catholic Church has become so firmly entrenched within the fabric of Philippine society especially in the rural areas, which constitute the bulk of the country's population.

Christianity actually kept the Philippines poor and that's why it remains poor.

Dirty Secrets of Christian Evangelism
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/103092.htm

[satay]

To all those who are accusing foreign funds and foreign hands in missionary activities.

Have you meet any of these evangelicals who are destroying our culture and religions ?? I have...and all were Indians, in color, in behavior, in talk and everything else. We have seen Indians taking up false ahimsha, communism, naxalism and now christianity with one goal of destroying the very foundation he stands on.


Namaste Singhi,

I am not accusing America or Americans for supplying the funds to export garbage in other nations. I am, however, accusing those who give their money to their local church be it america, canada, europre, africa or india because it is that money that is being used to export garbage to asia and africa.

This is a business. It is cheaper to hire locally in India just like with any other business.

Where do you think the money comes from that keeps the business rolling? From Indian politics and government?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

and so Kali Yuga continues... all great examples of this time we are in, yes?

What can one do in this time? Change ourselves, our family and and our community. The more sattva we can pump into the environment, the better.

As satay said in several posts, do not contribute to these organizations that have this orientation that my religion is THE religion.

And , talk of these issues as we are we're doing now. Jesus' teachings are superb, yet something got twisted along the way. I know many Christians and I would love to have the ones I know as neighbors. Good, whole, and healthy people. Their religion has made them better people. Yet like all people you have good and not so good. This we find with every type of race, religion and segment.

And what of the Mormans, or Jehova Witness, etc. that knock on your door? For me, I invite them in. ( as my lovely wife rolls back her eyes as I do this all the time ). What does Sanatana Dharma say of a stranger or guest at your door?
We have a choice - do not answer the door, or answer and offer them lemonaide, then send them on their way if you have time to listen to anothers views. Can one be just a student of life for the 15 min they take? or care to lock horns with them? . Yet at times one can feel like a football ( as my teacher says) - your well intentions are kicked around. We have this gift of choice. As Sivananda says, love and be hospitable to all, yet trust only few ( a lesson for me ).

At the end of the day, it is how we, collectively as a society function. 'We' get what we deserve, collectively. When there is a hurricane, or tornado, or something that brings destruction, people look up and say why me Lord? Collectively, we influence everything.

pranams,

[saidevo]

Namaste.



Collectively, we influence everything.


I fully agree with Yajvan that one of the most effective steps against attack on Hinduism could be that the Hindus should know and show their religion. For example, I used to wear vibhuti (not just a smear of it, but in three bands) to my office during the last years of my career, even when I worked for an IT company for a short while. It is alright to wear western garments but we should, IMHO, should also wear our religious mark. Girls and women, especially, must wear the tilak with the knowledge that it stimulates the ajna chakra and improves concentration, and feel proud about it, as Sri Sri Ravishankar always exhorts. The Vaishnavas among us are more faithful to wearing religious marks and feel proud about them.

There are other ways we Hindus can show outward expressions of our religious and cultural auspice. We may use incense sticks and neem oil instead of mosquito coils, herbal powder to wash hair, use margo and herbal soaps and cosmetics, etc. and Ayurvedic medicine in our daily life. We may cook rich vegetarian dishes and invite our friends from other faiths during weekends and festival times to taste them. We have festivals and fasts every month and we may celebrate and observe most of them. We may train our children on these lines right from their eary years. We may converse in our rich vernacular languages rather than use the offensive American English and when we need to speak it, consciously avoid language that has offensive, sexual and perverse connotations. We may watch Hindu spiritual channels on TV, at least for sometime daily. We may encourage our children to read Hindu fairy tales and comics such as those published in magazines like Chandamama. Above all, we should strive to know and teach our children the basics of Hinduism in the four walks of life: dharma, artha, kama, moksha. Some of us who are well versed with multimedia programming, may create multimedia books, animated movies and games (like the famous Hanuman animated movie for example) with Hindu themes.

We are the most ancient, efficient, spiritual, cultural, and civilized society with a religion that offers a way for every type of human being at every level. Just as in the olden days an army in the warfield proudly displayed its flags and other insignia and blow the conch loud and clear, we need to know and show our religious symbolism and provisions in every facet of our life and feel proud about it. Only then can we keep the evangelical wolves at bay.

[Kaos]

To the local Indians who donate and actively work for the foreign Christian Evangelical missionaries:

You should go back to the eternal truths of your religion. Listen to the message of the Upanishads, respect your temples and religious symbols and take pride in your birth in the holy land of India. This was the message of Swami Vivekananda, the protege of Sri Ramakrishna.

Being proud of your culture is the only way to combat the nescience of Western materialism and the Christian Evangelical missionaries in their activities to undermine Hindu society.

Personally, I do not see any rationale for the Christain Evangelical passion to convert other than the "my god is better than your god" mentality.

Some say that Jesus went to India to learn. Therefore, if Jesus went to India to learn, then for the Western Christian Evangelist to say that Indians need to convert to Christianity is like saying "we need to sell ice to the Eskimo". :)

[willie]

That vive was not much more then a cheap carsalesman. And I would not have bought a car from him.

From the size of his head it is a wonder he could walk around at all. Lookd the some of the pictures of him, in chicago, a turban in his head like some sultan and looking spiffy in a good set of clothes.

A person can take up any religion they want at any time , it part of being free.

[Kaos]

That vive was not much more then a cheap carsalesman. And I would not have bought a car from him.

From the size of his head it is a wonder he could walk around at all. Lookd the some of the pictures of him, in chicago, a turban in his head like some sultan and looking spiffy in a good set of clothes.

A person can take up any religion they want at any time , it part of being free.


Willie,
You should go to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, climb the tallest mosque and preach to them the importance of religious freedom and all that kind of stuff.

I hope they let you keep your head attached to your shoulders to continue your proselytising and preaching to us here in this forum, that "a person can take up any religion they want at any time, it part of being free", just like a used car salesman. :)

[sm78]

Willie,
You should go to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, climb the tallest mosque and preach to them the importance of religious freedom and all that kind of stuff.

Depending on Willie's location I can perhaves suggest a location which will be less of a journey for Willie to take and result will be interesting to watch.

In Saudi Arabia, preaching anything other than Islam carrier the penalty of one's head formally by law. There are placed closer home where it is not govt law, but nonetheless one will loose one's head by trying this experiment.

[Kaos]

A person can take up any religion they want at any time , it part of being free.




Dear Willie,

If the U.S. government, and the Christian fundamentalist right wing religious right, really takes "religious freedom" seriously, why don't they change the motto in the U.S. currency to "In Willie we trust"??
No, I don't think they will. Why?

Because "In Willie we trust" sounds like a sales pitch of used car salesman. :)

Religion shoudn't even meddle in the affairs of secular government, but obviously, the fundamentalist Christian right wing in the U.S. just can't keep to themselves and completely disregards separation of Church and State, which is a fundamental principle put into place by the framers of the U.S. Contitution, such as Thomas Jefferson.

The current motto in U.S. currency is "In God We Trust". Now, this "God"
has a Christian connotation, which implies that the United States was founded as a "Christian" country. Please tell us, where in the U.S. Constitution does it declare that the U.S. was indeed founded and meant to be a Christian country.

Nowhere, because the Christian fundamentalist religious right which runs things behind the scenes, in the United States basically does not really believe in "religious freedom" unless of course, Christianity is concerned, because they are obviously biased towards their religion.

So, Willie, next time the U.S. Congress or Senate goes into session, you should climb to the roof and declare unequivocably, that "In God We Trust" be replaced with "In Willie we trust". Then, we will really have religious freedom. :)

[atanu]

----
------

The small minority of devout, Christians with good intentions are short-changed by the vast majority who call themselves "Christians" but are in fact, Christians in name only.

------
------.

Dear Kaos,

Isn't this the rule of the game everywhere? (Apparently at least, if one believes that Dharma will win the day one day??)

[atanu]

Namaste,

I am of the opinion that we will defeat these Theo-neo-cons here at home. To my eye, the mixture of Evangelicals, politics, think-tanks and bankers is quite insidious but their own hatred and egocentricity is now resulting in their structure *already* crumbling - their own obsession with "Revelations" is now being expressed in their mass exposure for who and what they are, at every turn.

It ain't pretty, and I suspect it will get downright ugly before all is said and done.

ZN

I hear sound of drum beats in the midst of some soft and some harsh music. All thingys must pass.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste -
A lively conversation here... some points to consider if one cares to review. Why do I know any of this? This came up in a Democratic debate on television that stirred some interest, so I looked some of this up:

This notion of the separation of Church and State does not appear in the US Constitution. Not even the word GOD is there. reference to the Constitution: http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...ranscript.html (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html)


Where then does this notion of Church and State come from? Around 1773, a Baptist, the Rev. Isaac Backus in New England, wrote that when "church and state are separate, the effects are happy, and they do not at all interfere with each other: but where they have been confounded together, no tongue nor pen can fully describe the mischiefs that have ensued."

Now hows does the 3rd President, Thomas Jefferson get coined with any of this? A Baptist association sent a letter in 1801, to the newly elected President T. Jefferson, expressing their concern over the lack in their state constitution of explicit protection of religious liberty, and against government establishment of religion.

In their letter they pointed out that "Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty — That Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals — That no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious Opinions - That the legitimate Power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor.

Jefferson's response, 1802 ( no email, eh?) concurs with the Baptists' and writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

So in the USA what is the freedom that is implied here? Freedom OF religion & freedom FROM religion.

OF Religion - to choose what we care to practice and believe in.
FROM Religion - ( all the stuff above from Jefferson and the Baptists common ideas) that the Government will NOT dictate a FEDERAL religion one has to follow...that is the principle.

That is why America had dissent with England, and wrote the Declaration of Independence . It was written by Thomas Jefferson in 1776. It was signed by the Continental Congress and sent to King George III . It is a statement of sentiments in reaction to unfair taxation and other grievances that the new America found detestful. It is not a 'law' of the USA, or in the Constitution. In fact, the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1789, thirteen years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence

Bottom line:
Church-state separation keeps the government from setting up a single national church or showing preference among faith groups, but not from aiding all religions on a non-preferential basis. [Thank God! last thing we need? A departent of religion, looking to levy a tax on God or the beliefs thereof!]

Re: In God We Trust - on the coinage and currency of the USA. This is a more passionate conversation that bares little fruit.

dhanyavaad , and if Willie goes to Saudi Arabia per SM78's post, perhaps he can use this: shukran gazillan (Thank you very much, in Arabic)

[sarabhanga]

Namaste,



Thank God! last thing we need? A departent of religion, looking to levy a tax on God or the beliefs thereof!




In India there are special state-government departments for the administration of Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments.

In Tamil Nadu (at least) the HR & CE department controls all places where public worship occurs ~ including every (active) mandir, sadhu’s samadhi shrine, guru’s ashram, and acarya’s math!

[Znanna]

I hear sound of drum beats in the midst of some soft and some harsh music. All thingys must pass.


LOL, yep.

And, as usual, I'm at ground zero ;)


Love,
ZN

[willie]

Never been invited to saudi arabia to give and talk, too bad. But I have stirred up enough problems with out going.

When people get offended it only proves how weak and pitiful , what ever religion they follow is. I have been to meetings where discussions of god resulted in yelling matches.

In america if you don't like what you church is saying you walk down the street to the next one and try them out.


As for " in god we trust" on the currency, I would change it to say " in god we trust, everyone else we check out."

The fundamentalist have contributed a lot of money to political campaigns and so far have gotten little in return. People seem to see than as a united front, they are not and only get along when the camera is on them.

[atanu]

-----
I still would not buy a car from vive he was pretty much of a poor sort. I see him as a real ego problem, sort of like clint eastwood said " a legend in his own mind" he said a few good things but didn't know when to shutup.

----



Well. You are saying the truth. Vive (whoever that may be) is a legend in your mind. Don't u realise that? Vive has not claimed all these. You are.

I hope you will know when to shut up. And if you are referring to Swami Vivekananda, then you better shut up.

Om

[Kaos]

Never been invited to saudi arabia to give and talk, too bad. But I have stirred up enough problems with out going.



Don't worry about being invited to Saudi Arabia to give a talk.
This forum is probably about as far as you can get to selling like a cheap car salesman, as compared to Swami Vivekananda.

I hope this forum gives that little ego within you, that very much needed boost. ;)






When people get offended it only proves how weak and pitiful , what ever religion they follow is. I have been to meetings where discussions of god resulted in yelling matches.




Unfortunately, we have people with attitude problems like "willie" who are more inclined to open their mouth rather than think things through.

Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda both preached tolerance and the unity of mankind, yet you attacked Swami Vivekananda and his message of peace and compared him to a used car salesman.

Do you think, Swami Vivekananda is affected by your criticism of him?
Other people might not even have heard of your criticism, nor would they probably care.

So, actually, when people like you, are always trying to find fault and criticizing others, even of Swami Vivekananda, it only proves what an unhappy, weak, fearful and pitiful situation, you are, and not the other way around.


On the other hand, your spiteful comments likening Swami Vivekananda to a used car salesman, only points to your own lack of understanding of what he and Sri Ramakrishna stood for.

Because you lack understanding and even the motivation to learn what Swami Vivekananda's message was all about, you simply resort to cheap use of rhetoric... just like a used car salesman. ;)









In america if you don't like what you church is saying you walk down the street to the next one and try them out.





Oh yeah, in America, "Christians" from the south, the so-called Bible Belt also used to lynch blacks and burn churches where blacks congregate.

The trouble with you and your "Western" attitude is that you think, America and what it purports to stand for, should be the "gold standard" by which each and every person, country and culture on earth should emulate.


That is not going to happen anytime soon, as your current death struggle with Islam, which by the way, has a lot in common with Christianity, when it comes to spreading religion, by coercion, conversion or even by force.

This is similar to two deluded conjoined twins in a deathgrip.







As for " in god we trust" on the currency, I would change it to say " in god we trust, everyone else we check out."




I doubt, you even know what "god" is, let alone trust him.

[Kaos]

OF Religion - to choose what we care to practice and believe in.
FROM Religion - ( all the stuff above from Jefferson and the Baptists common ideas) that the Government will NOT dictate a FEDERAL religion one has to follow...that is the principle.




Saying something in principle is one thing.
Actually, applying it into practice is another. You cannot legislate people's thoughts and old ingrained biases.

For example, many here extol the virtues of supposedly fundamental American values as freedom of religion, separation of church and state, etc. as defined under the Constitution.

And yet, how many American presidents have been elected who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. So far, zero.

Why?

Because, in practice, many people are not comfortable with the idea of an American president who is a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu etc., or anyone who is not Christian.

Some people are even aghast at the idea of a Hindu prayer being recited in Congress.

To these bigoted, narrow-minded, intolerant people, being an American is equated to being white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Christian. Since 9-11, Muslims are more likely to be targeted and harassed than those with a Christian background.

Right-wing fudnamentalist neo-conservative Christian groups working behind the scenes, virtually run the show, behind certain political figures.

So, in reality, where is religious freedom and separation of church and state?

As a famous musician once remarked, "America is a nation of laws, badly written and randomly enforced."

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Saying something in principle is one thing.
Actually, applying it into practice is another. You cannot legislate people's thoughts and old ingrained biases.

For example, many here extol the virtues of supposedly fundamental American values as freedom of religion, separation of church and state, etc. as defined under the Constitution.

And yet, how many American presidents have been elected who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. So far, zero.

Why?

Because, in practice, many people are not comfortable with the idea of an American president who is a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu etc., or anyone who is not Christian.

Some people are even aghast at the idea of a Hindu prayer being recited in Congress.

To these bigoted, narrow-minded, intolerant people, being an American is equated to being white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Christian. Since 9-11, Muslims are more likely to be targeted and harassed than those with a Christian background.

Right-wing fudnamentalist neo-conservative Christian groups working behind the scenes, virtually run the show, behind certain political figures.

So, in reality, where is religious freedom and separation of church and state?

As a famous musician once remarked, "America is a nation of laws, badly written and randomly enforced."

Namste Kaos,
I think you bring up some valid points. especially You cannot legislate people's thoughts and old ingrained biases. I have no point to make on this post other then comments i.e. no motivation to persuade, and thought to say this up front. So, lets kick around a few ideas - your repsonse is greatly welcomed.

regarding: And yet, how many American presidents have been elected who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. So far, zero.

This is true. It was a 'big deal' to have a Catholic elected president ( Kennedy) back in the 60's and it was the choice of the voters. Yet for me as a voter, I do not care if the person is from Mars. Is that the same for every voter, nope. I am concerned with their qualifications. Their religion is their personal choice and I respect that.

At the state level and local levels in the USA you do have Jewish leaders, blacks, hispanics, etc. There is diversity, yet its not forced. It is up to the voters. We're dealing with voter consciousness.

And regarding Muslims - Jaafar Sheikh Idris has taken issue with Muslims serving in congress - why so? An oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution is a prerequisite for service in Congress, the Armed Forces of the United States, and many other offices of public trust, Jaafar Sheikh Idris is saying that no Muslim is qualified for such offices. I find this curious.
regarding the following:
For example, many here extol the virtues of supposedly fundamental American values as freedom of religion, separation of church and state, etc. as defined under the Constitution.

As far as I can tell, anyone can choose the religion of their choice.
Is there a place or instant that you have noticed that this is at risk?

That was the point I was trying to communicate. You are free to choose. There is no forcing. If there was a forcing, there would be no atheists, correct? Roughly ~ 12% of the population are atheists ( I think they are at a loss for this, but its their choice). Is there another point that is to be considered that I am overlooking? The point is the government, federal or state, has no say over what you practice as a religion and cannot favor one religion over another.

There is nothing in the US Constitution on the separation of Church and State... please take a look: http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...ranscript.html


regarding:
To these bigoted, narrow-minded, intolerant people, being an American is equated to being white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Christian. Since 9-11, Muslims are more likely to be targeted and harassed than those with a Christian background.

Right-wing fundamentalist neo-conservative Christian groups working behind the scenes, virtually run the show, behind certain political figures.

Yep, they are out there e.g. bigoted, narrow-minded, intolerant people.
Yet its my experience its not the majority. I also think the USA has not cornered the market on this trait, but that is my vantage point. Also note that there are right wing neo's because there are left wing polititions and groups that make ritght wing band together. Politics is not pretty, yet there is this yin and yang that comes up all the time.

re: Christian groups working behind the scenes, - yes, there are. And there are also lobbist for Corporations, School Teachers, American Indian Gaming Tribes, Ecologists, Global warming people, Save the Whales Groups, Border Security, etc. There's roughly 1,000 lobbists in Washington DC, all there to move their agenda forward.

I am not in favor of all this as it does not accelerate a Democracy, but pushes certain agendas further then the other. The thinking here ( which is not attractive to me one bit and I make by voice known week-in and week-out with my representatives) is ' well if that is the way the game is played then we're jumping in to protect our interests'. Is this the right thing? Nope. Yet this is the thinking at hand. It can be better - as the Congress is now passing more rules of engagement on this. Lets see what happens.

Thanks and let me know your thoughts... there is absolutely room for improvement for the USA to mature as a nation. I hope I can contribute in some way. I am pretty active with my congressional representatives, with Global Warming issues, etc , but no need to go there.

[willie]

All the religious leaders seem to preach the unity of mankind and peace, and how that is the true path as long as their group is the lead.

I remember walking through the streets and looking at the churches, a whole bunch of prostestant and baptist, Islam , hindu, bahai,jewish, buddhist(zen) and a few wiccan one. Then I went down to the local animal shelter to look at the current crop of stray dogs. I walked through the pound and all the dogs were barking trying to get someone to take them home. I remember thing that religious organization were a lot like these pound puppies. A motley group the didn't know who their father was and all sounding the same.


Backing up , backing down and shutting up is not me. I have been asked to leave a number of churches and thrown out of others. It does not bother me an others left went I did. At some point you realise that religions have to maintain control because they are becoming irrevelant in the modern world.

[atanu]

-----

Backing up , backing down and shutting up is not me. I have been asked to leave a number of churches and thrown out of others. It does not bother me an others left went I did. At some point you realise that religions have to maintain control because they are becoming irrevelant in the modern world.



You speak in cliches. What is new in saying that 'religions have to maintain control'. Willie you are not saying anything new and of value. The question is: Are you above this need to maintain control?


Are you above all fears? No, since you are saying "Backing up , backing down and shutting up is not me". Bulls. Who is this me? Look in and you will see that it is your ego that wants a personal identity, so it does not conform, is irreverent, and acts as a smartass. And this ego is trying to ridicule everything that it sees. It is cynicism.


It will be brought to its knees whether it likes or not.


(It does not mean that Atanu's 'me' will not be brought to its knees. Natural process will follow). It's smartassism to comment on revered personalities. It is ego's way to try to obtain some recognition, since there is no other good quality that it can use. I have always seen useless people resorting to such.

And if you have a genuine point, bring that here. People can examine. Your way of not addressing anyone or anything in particular; just making all knowing comments without support is useless and very low.

You have full right to call anyone a sales man or egoist or anything. Do it with evidence and not with mere comments. Nature has full right to retort appropriately or keep you as useless.





Om

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Willie

It is not quite like that. The problem is money! Religion its a field of services and it has clients who buy and love that services so the field of religion is more like a market were you buy salvation services. It is for that reason mainly that you have holly wars outside and inside religions. The core message and function of religion is very important for mankind recreation and development it connects people within them selfs and with higher proposes it brings ones s . In religions like Hinduism the field effect is smaller due to the history of the country, many salvation enterprises and out of the market solutions. Big block religions tend to be monopolistic and are with the passing of time factors of many conflicts. That is the case with Islam now a days as it was with budism 1400 years ago they become cultural despotic and loose their main objective the liberation of souls and society.
Who doesn't want to be a mahatma? Who doesn't want to be recognized? Have lots of followers friends etc.! It makes good to the ego as well as the pocket and it gives great power and influence over others.
Now stop blaming religion for what it is you are no different. Karl Gustav Jung used to say that wen a person is discontent with the other he must be discontent with them self. Maybe thats the reason why you haven't found your religion yet. It´s a problem of Ego after all. Have no fear, be humble without loosing your self, be patient, learn to learn, love freedom, things will happen, you will see.

Love & Light

Om namah shivaya!

[atanu]

Namaste All,

I find the title of the post very appropriate (except for a small spelling mistake).

It is house cleaning. One's own house. Dear Singhi has indicated collective consciousness. Vivekananda said of clearing the nescience of collective consciousness.

And Ramana says "Where is the collective consciousness, if not in your consciousness?". The fact is that in dreams the problems are different. In deep sleep this same person has no problem. And in Self? Well who knows?

I am in minority and I may be much like Willie. hehe.

Om Namah Shivaya

Note: In the nescience of waking life consciousness Shiva lovers have always lost their land, home, and position. A point which bothers much.

Or is it that after losing everything, one verily becomes a Shiva lover?

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste atnu!

"In the nescience of waking life consciousness Shiva lovers have always lost their land, home, and position. A point which bothers much.

Or is it that after losing everything, one verily becomes a Shiva lover?"

Lol!!
As people say they are the true sons of Fortune!
Thank you!:)


Om namah shivaya!

[Kaos]

Note: In the nescience of waking life consciousness Shiva lovers have always lost their land, home, and position. A point which bothers much.

Or is it that after losing everything, one verily becomes a Shiva lover?


What Shiva creates, Shiva mainstains and Shiva destroys.

Therefore, there is no need to convert.

It is like converting Shiva to become Shiva. :)

[atanu]

What Shiva creates, Shiva mainstains and Shiva destroys.

Therefore, there is no need to convert.

It is like converting Shiva to become Shiva. :)

Namaste,

You are correct. I am wrong. In the ultimate. But Kaos, here I was talking of the nescience. And I checked and found no reference to converting Shiva to Shiva (which is an impossibilty, I agree). Did I say that?


Or I am not undestanding you.

Om

[Kaos]

Shiva to Shiva (which is an impossibilty, I agree). Did I say that?




Namaste Atanu,

Yes, indeed, Shiva can convert to Shiva.
It is like Shiva looking at a mirror.
Shiva converting to Shiva, is called maya.:)

It is what these Christian Evangelists believe they are trying to do.
As if, changing water into ice, will change it's essence...

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste All,

And Ramana says "Where is the collective consciousness, if not in your consciousness?". The fact is that in dreams the problems are different. In deep sleep this same person has no problem. And in Self? Well who knows?



Namaskr atanu,
this is brilliant... we as a society reap our actions collectively , and individually. That is way no action is 'private'. Even if no eyes are on the individual, the action goes into the social repository overall.

The hypothetical question:
what if I do something that is in my house, why should you be conserned, I am not bothering you and I am not damaging you. This is a main argument/rationalization I hear many times...

The wisdom of Ramana suggests this is not the case... yet it also works for good, yes? People doing good deeds, yajya, charity, helping must also go into that social repository for the sattivc bank account.


Yet how can one explain the connectedness of all actions that the indiviudal understands? This is the pickle of the rishi's. Their level of comprehension of how this universe works, then to boil it down to a level that the common person, let alone the seeker understands.


thank you for bringing this....


pranams,

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu,

Yes, indeed, Shiva can convert to Shiva.
It is like Shiva looking at a mirror.
Shiva converting to Shiva, is called maya.:)

It is what these Christian Evangelists believe they are trying to do.
As if, changing water into ice, will change it's essence...

Namaste,

Agreed Agreed Agreed.

But unrelated to this thread's subject, I asked "Or is it that after losing everything, one verily becomes a Shiva lover?"

And, I feel, unrelated to above is your query on "Shiva converting to Shiva."

or I am not understanding. May be mutual mis-understanding.

Well let us let it go.

Regards,

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~

-----The wisdom of Ramana suggests this is not the case... yet it also works for good, yes? People doing good deeds, yajya, charity, helping must also go into that social repository for the sattivc bank account.
-------
thank you for bringing this....


pranams,

Namaskar Yajvan,

That's true. That's sacrifice -- which has become a weak word in kali yuga, but which is not. Sacrifice is the foundation of strength. God's is the biggest sacrifice. And for us mortals, when all thoughts and all karma happen as worship-sacrifice for God and not for ego self alone, result is good for the self.

Paradoxical. Yet true.

Om

[satay]

namaste,




The trouble with vive was that once he had put a dagger into the heart of the scourge of mankind, had to pull it back out.

Who is 'vive'?

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Satay

I think Willie means Vivekananda.;) The disciple of Bengali Saint RamaKrishna. I have catch him up talking about Vivekananda in some other post.

[willie]

Just take a look at this thing called religion, count up all the dead from its wars, count up all the lies it has told , all the people money it has taken to keep itself alive , and all the crooked deals it have made with politicians.

Sure it talks about unity and then you see all the different sects , chruches , and divisions among this coherent group and you start to wonder at them all.

Then someone like the swami vivekananda comes along to take on this monster. He did a fair job at first, took the fight to the enemy and make some good points. Then he realized if he killed the monster he would be out of a job and he backed off. Maybe he did crush some runt sects and that was for the good but he should have taken on the major sects and when he went to chicago he should have held the christians feet to the fire. But he wimped out and all he has to show for it is some plaques in chicago.

Of the fighting in the world , at present , it is mostly a war or ignorant religions. In iraq the sunni and shia are fighting it out , in afghanistan it is the taliban against everyone else. And yet people think that back in biblical or veda times it was better. Well then the taliban are your type of people. You cannot listen to the radio or look at tv because you need that time to pray. Members of the taliban carry justice around in their pocket, if the catch someone and think he a crook or a bad person , they behead then and move on to the next client. You cannot do any sculpting or artistic painting or it is the death penatly. Most of the taliban cannot read the quran because most of the population is illiterate and the main language if farsi not arabic.

So if you think religion has your best interest at heart try living like that.

I would say that it is time for people to stand up and call for and accounting. Everyone has heard of saints and rishis of the past and the great thing the supposedly did but we live in the here and now. People want to be able to have a spiritual life with real techinques that provide real results.

[Madhavan]

Wille, I dont know you yet, but it is obvious you know little of Swami Vivekananda. You point out his short comings without realizing that one man can do very little to change the world. He did everything until his last years carrying out a seemingly impossible burden. Perhaps you do not realize how much opposition he had to face in the United States and often even from fellow Hindus. Let us be careful while pointing fingers at others especially the likes of someone like Vivekananda.

[atanu]

----
Of the fighting in the world , at present , it is mostly a war or ignorant religions. In iraq the sunni and shia are fighting it out , in afghanistan it is the taliban against everyone else. And yet people think that back in biblical or veda times it was better. Well then the taliban are your type of people. You cannot listen to the radio or look at tv because you need that time to pray. Members of the taliban carry justice around in their pocket, if the catch someone and think he a crook or a bad person , they behead then and move on to the next client. -----

Willie,

You must realise that problems were there, problems are there, and problems will be there. That's part of the nescience and that is the very reason of you and me being here -- To know the Purusha (Purva Usha), who burned up all that was before him, including problems.

What is the use of complaining and finding fault everywhere. Is there anything in your nescience that you can term as nice/fine/OK?

Om

[Kaos]

Willie,
I believe you're a full grown man.
And yet, don't you realize you're whinning like a little boy with your incessant posts, complaining about religions, criticizing even revered personalities like Swami Vivekananda, even referring to him as nothing but a mere "used car salesman."

I dare you go to a Chrisitian or a Muslim board, and proclaim that Jesus and Mohammed were nothing but "used car salesmen" and see what kind of reception you get.

Statements like these coming from you, do not even offer a fair assessment of what you are criticizing. Cheap pot shots like these, merely reflect your lack of understanding and is not freedom of speech.

With freedom of speech comes responsibility.

Since this is a Hindu board, I suggest you offer an apology to all Hindus and Indians in general. Swami Vivekanada and his teacher Sri Ramakrishna are both esteemed Hindus, Indians. They were both human beings with noble intentions.

[atanu]

Willie,
I believe you're a full grown man.
-----

Hehe. Willie also believes so. It's an error.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Willie,
With freedom of speech comes responsibility.


Well said and a lesson that grows over time...

"Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world." - Buddha

[willie]

Who says one man cannot do much. Bin laden fired up other people and blew up 2 large buildings, and did it on the cheap. And he is still walking around free and probably laughing.

Sadam, got others to help him and ran a country into the ground, robbed it blind, got patted on the back by the US at times and finally got taken down. No telling how many people he had killed , this one man.

Jesus and mohammad were both single persons and look at what they left behind. Then there was moses, led people out of bondage.

By the way there was a council in the 700rds and it voted to give jesus divine status. He won by one vote. I often wonder if he got divine status because he was divine or because if he was not then the church would have to disprove the divine status of every religious maddog from then til the end of time. Well something for later.

Others crawled over obstacles and got like minded men together and made changes for the better or worse. But poor vive could only whine in the background and since some have called me a whinner , I guess I and in approiate company.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Willie



Lol!

Have you already tried to bark at the moon?
I think you can not stop your internal speech and that´s a problem!
Try some hatha yoga! And read some of Yajvan post on astrology as well as Sarabhanga post on the great rudras! :cool1:

[atanu]

-
Jesus and mohammad were both single persons and look at what they left behind. Then there was moses, led people out of bondage.

-----
But poor vive could only whine in the background and since some have called me a whinner , I guess I and in approiate company.


Thats true. The former two did leave some massacre. And they are still fighting.

Poor Vire, has done no such thing.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Originally Posted by willie http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=14502#post14502)
-
Jesus and mohammad were both single persons and look at what they left behind. Then there was moses, led people out of bondage.



Hello willie (et.al)

If on reads this story verbatim, then yes Moses took them for a walk...
The wise reader sees bondage not as slavery and making pyramids from mud, but the 'bondage' of actions and reactions - of being attached to actions - the wisdom lies here, not in the hike. The liberation is in Tad Ekam.

dhanyavaad

[willie]

Just too bad some of you cannot do some time as a slave and live in chains. Then the ideas of bondage might change and getting enough to eat and to be able to live to might take center stage , rather than worring about another live that may or may not exist.

Some of the jews were slaves and others were skilled artisans that worked in the pyramids.

But these people stood up made major changes and got others to follow the , for better or worse. And it is try that there is still fighting today over some of these issues , because some say never again will we go back to the way it was.

Vive did a lot of talking but where are the followers that make some changes so things are better today?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Just too bad some of you cannot do some time as a slave and live in chains. Then the ideas of bondage might change and getting enough to eat and to be able to live to might take center stage

Wille , this is bondage - the repetition of life-after-life , again and again. Being locked to our senses and
them to objects of the sense.

Do you think a crust of bread withheld will make much difference? One only dies faster to come back one more time...and start again. The joke is on us life-after-life.

Our chains is that of ignoranace - and I for one am quite tired of all this...I for one have had enough of this ignorance.

thank you,

[Kaos]

Just too bad some of you cannot do some time as a slave and live in chains. Then the ideas of bondage might change and getting enough to eat and to be able to live to might take center stage , rather than worring about another live that may or may not exist.

Some of the jews were slaves and others were skilled artisans that worked in the pyramids.



Willie,
I liken your posts to that of a prisoner in jail talking harshly of his fellow jailmates. ;)

edited by satay

[willie]

For some strange reason I cannot remember any other lives. I would like to talk to someone who could. I hear this talk but I have not seen any proof.

Sort of like original sin, even if you did no sin in life you have a mark against you. Karma is handed out a lot like that even if you don't do it in the first life you have it put on you.

It is a wonder that suicide is not popular or high risk occupations. Get it over with in a hurry and hope for a better break next time around.

[atanu]

Sarcasm has a limit. This flaming is so subtle that it escapes notice.


Scriptures do not encourage leaving the body out of disgust. We are encouraged to face everything and go abroad (transcend) and not just leave the body and take another. There is no chance.


ONE WHO SUGGESTS TAKING A FAST ESCAPE THROUGH SUICIDE OR A HIGH RISK JOB FOR A NEXT CHANCE MAY TRY THAT ROUTE. WHO IS FITTER?


This guy who says smartly "I cannot remember any other lives ----". Does he know this life?


Om Namah Shivaya

[willie]

So here is another take on reincarnation.

Lets just divide it up into 2 different stages.

In one a person is in a live , with all the desires and wants that go along with it. Sure there are obligation, like rent, house payments, family, bills and a host of other things to deal with.

The other , well you might get some instruction from devine beings, not have as many things to worry about and generally have an uneventful existance.

Being in a human body is like being in the joint, better watch you back, obey the rules, don't make enemies, keep your mouth shut(someone might be listing and use it against you), be good and hope for parole or early release, maybe even work up to a trustee.

Outside of the human existance , things are going better. Like a regular guy out side of the joint. A person could go to school learn great things.

But then you reincarnate. Its like going to the joint, and when you get there you for get what you were sent up for. So do the time for an unknown crime and some day you get out.

This reincarnation thing is like the worst apects of the penal system. When you reincarnate you forget what got you into the reincarnation, so you don't know what to do keep it from happening again. Just like going to the joint and not getting a ged or a college education while in there, so when they let you out you have no skills to make aliving with.

[atanu]

Re-incarnation is true and false, same as this world is true as the divine person and false otherwise.

[saidevo]

This reincarnation thing is like the worst apects of the penal system. When you reincarnate you forget what got you into the reincarnation, so you don't know what to do keep it from happening again. Just like going to the joint and not getting a ged or a college education while in there, so when they let you out you have no skills to make aliving with.


When a person serves a sentence in a 'joint', is it not that the 'joint' is supposed to mellow the individual? If the crime and punishment are always kept in mind, how can the individual improve?

Reincarnation is the 'sentence' to serve in the 'joint' of life for multiple karmic crimes, if you want it put that way. It would be too much and daunting for the individual to 'remember' why he is repeated sent to the 'joint'. And you are incorrect that the person doesn't get any education when released on parole. Not only that the soul is apprised of why it took birth last, but also that the worlds of bhuva (astral) and svarga (heavens) are even more educative than the earthly world. There the soul released on parole is mellowed intrinsically even as it enjoys the life out there.

The worse the crime, the longer the sentence, and worse the misery of suffering!

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

When you reincarnate you forget what got you into the reincarnation,

Hello Willie,

An interesting view of this. So is there any light we can offer on this matter? One thing of note, no effort is ever lost. Who says this?
Hrishikesha (Krsna) Chapt 2.40 of the Bhagavad Gita, He says for one pursuing Yoga, union of the SELF, ones efforts accumulate. This person then returns and takes up where s/he left off - born in the house of the pure and illustrious (Chapt6.41) and even a family of yogis, as the is a bit more difficult to attain (6.42).

So, all is not lost Willie.

[willie]

People are put into the joint for punshiment. Most crimes have a sentence that covers a range of time. Depending on the severity of the crime a sentence is given . Mainly because people on the outside are tired of being robbed or worse by common thugs. The hope is that those in the joint will get the clue that if you do bad things, someone will come along and lock you up for a few years.

There are two problems with this.
One is that the other people in there are not choir boys and you better watch your back. Everyone thinks he is a tough guy and wants to prove how tough he it. So a lot of fights and stabbing break out. So people from gangs to survive.

The second is that , when you get out you have no skills to get a job and so have to resort to other means to make a living. Some institution used to try and get inmated to get at least a high school education , others tried to get as associated degree for inmated who worked for it. The ones who got it had a very lot return rate.

In reincarnation , if you have no idea of what to do the make up for mistakes , the system has a fatal flaw. No wonder it take so long to get out of the cycle. Not the sort of thing I would imagine brahman putting up with for long.

[yajvan]

Hari OM
~~~~~


In reincarnation , if you have no idea of what to do the make up for mistakes , the system has a fatal flaw. No wonder it take so long to get out of the cycle. Not the sort of thing I would imagine brahman putting up with for long.

A fair asasessment overall, yet one that returns to this good earth comes back with vasana's or impressions. We may think we are starting with a fresh piece of paper, yet this is not the case... The impressions of the past are brought with.

Now, is one cogniscent of these past impressions as if to say '''hummm, lets see I left off here and looks like I may need to do the following ..." .Nope - I do not think this is the case as far as I can tell. Yet over time , one begins to get it right.
Its like the movie 'Ground Hog day' - It took a while for Bill Murry to figure it out, but once he did , he got with the program. That is my best assessment I can offer for a very complex subject.

As my friend said, ' Dieing is no big deal, I did it a thousand times..."

Thanks for the post.

[willie]

Reincarnation a good theory, but , on the other hand the real good people don't come back. Guess that leaves all of us to deal with the losers like us. At least, in the greek version you had drink from the river leta to lose the knowledge, course a few slipped past the test. But here you done even get the chance to cheat. Too bad , a person might be able to write some good history book and make a good living, otherwise.

I am not even sure that the vedas mention reincarnation by name, I will have to look into that.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste dear Willie


What are you talking about?
Egypt was not Rome and Centralized religion has nothing to do with descentralized religion.Maybe you want a Feuer to fulfill your middle class dreams of stability and interest or just to justifie your anger to control.
Centralized religion it´s a modern phenomena it was born wen the jews ( a small elected elite of them ) thought to have all the religious market for them selfs wiping out all the small sects ( gods and angels) that my compete with their dream´s of total control. Christ belonged to one of those small heterodox sects of Judaism. See what happened to him.
Not every body on Hinduism strives for Mocksha/Nirvana ( the end of reincarnation), in fact there are saints in Hinduism that preach reincarnation instead of Mocksha/Nirvana. So not every body thinks that this world is a bad place and that being a alive is some sort of a course.I am remembering saint Tukaram that used to say " Put me on this life o lord so that i can live it all over again". Even Buda renunciated the Nirvana state after he had accomplished him. " For the sake of other's souls salvation" and that is still one of the things Bodysatvas follow today.
Now old Egyptians religion was founded on magic and magic operations ( magic was free for every body ) wile Roman religion was based mainly on the ancestor's cult. Old Egytian religion was ruled by the Farao and it's close priests, in Rome there was complete religious freedom. Well almost complete. Wile in Egypt there existed the tendencie for centralism in Rome such thing only happened after the triumph of Christianity.
For what i know about centralized state religions, called ( monotheists) i personally love Hinduism as he still is today. I am for freedom!

[sarabhanga]

Its like the movie 'Ground Hog day' - It took a while for Bill Murry to figure it out, but once he did , he got with the program. That is my best assessment I can offer for a very complex subject.

Namaste Yajvan,

Yes, "Ground-Hog Day" is an excellent analogy for reincarnation! :)

[saidevo]

The Christian missioneries have turned their eyes on the ubiquitous Internet and the IT sector to wage a war against the elite and educated Hindus and convert them to Christianity, using every foul method for the task. Here is a recent news item about the evangelical cyber-missions and programs for the Hindus in the IT sector:



Hindu Maya and Christian Cyber-missions, evangelism and Implications.
8/16/2007 9:32:06 PM
By Vedaprakash

http://www.haindavakeralam.org/PageModule.aspx?PageID=4275&SKIN=C

Cyber-mission on war-path to attack India – the First Crusade may start at any time: On 30th July, 2007, John Dyal was interviewed by the NDTV news reader and repeatedly asked about the Catholic Cyber Conversion adopted and adapted recently. Reacting to this, vigorously and crazily John Dyal started justifying it. When persisted how religion could be brought to the virtual world, he blurted out that "Why not" - Hindus say that the entire world is Maya. Then, it was shown as if the TV crew get opinion of Delhi-students with Christian, half-Christian-half-Hindu and Hindu names accepting and supporting such Cyber-conversion, evidently without understanding the implications. Thus, it appears that Vatican has incorporated Cyber-mission in its agenda and there would be more Roberto de Nobilis, Beschis, Bede Griffiths, Hans Staffners, Clooneys, and so on with laptops with wireless internet connections. Of course, they started already.

...

The treatment of Hindu-men under Christian cyber-masters / employers: As the employers are Christians, they have already started pressure on Hindu IT workers and experts. Slowly, it would turn in different direction. When one young Indian software engineer went to US and working there, his fellow Americans used to ask him about the "sandal paste mark" on his forehead etc. Though, he used to give general explanation for their understanding, they used to argue with religious vigor. After some days, one of Americans gave him a Bible, asked to him to read and come for discussion. This is very similar to what has been happening in gulf-countries, where the sheik-masters used to try with Hindu-professionals.



The treatment of Hindu-girls and women under Christian cyber-masters / employers: With Hindu girls and women, they behave differently. Starting with commenting on their mode of dress, colour etc., slowly, they praise about their beauty and so on. Of course, the Supreme Court judgment and direction about the treatment of women at work places applicable in India would not be applicable there and we do not know as to whether any equivalent Act, Rules or provisions are to check such "women teasing" [I do not want to use eve teasing, as they might take it as a right. Yes, as Jehovah teased Eve, the fundamentalist, fanatic Christians could think that it is their right to tease women following their Commandment of God].

...

[satay]

The Christian missioneries have turned their eyes on the ubiquitous Internet and the IT sector to wage a war against the elite and educated Hindus and convert them to Christianity, using every foul method for the task. Here is a recent news item about the evangelical cyber-missions and programs for the Hindus in the IT sector:

Namaskar,

In some sense, it is better that they wage war against the educated Hindus compared to their war against the uneducated ones.

This cyber-mission has not just started, it has been going on for many years already on the Net, where for example, christian missionaries or muslims go to wiki and edit posts about hinduism with incorrect information, have sites to degrade hinduism, hindus, indians and india in general.

Now that the propaganda machine has failed on the uneducated hindus let's see how the educated ones do.