This suffering

[satay]

Namaste,
This post is inspired by Yajvan’s post on the maya thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1768&page=2 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1768&page=2)

Is this suffering one experiences maya? That suffering is maya is beyond my comprehension and contrary to experience. The rishi says, “Nalpe sukham asti” yet, if I may use nirotu’s words here this suffering is as real as the ‘nose on our face’ or so it seems.

One can perhaps easily ignore one’s own suffering and accept the wisdom of ‘nalpe sukham asti’, however, personal experience (many can attest to this) is that a loved one’s suffering is the worst kind and most painful.

Seeing a loved one suffering for no apparent reason, and feeling his or her pain, is this maya?

My apologies for questioning the wisdom of the rishis. Though the wisdom may make sense at a philosophical level or a transcendental level, yet on the pracitcal plane, we can not simply say suffering is maya since it seems so ‘real’.

??

[Madhavan]

Namaste satayji.

Yes I can attest to it. Theory cannot help anyone in pain(physical or mental) and nor any words of comfort even from God unless the pain is removed. One's own suffering and that of loved ones is a horrible thing in this world. The reason maybe mAyA but it is REAL as it stands. No one can ignore the grim reality that sorrounds us. Those who enjoy their lives can revel in the theories of mAyA and advice others. When it comes to own, there is no escape. Too much of distress can cause a person to turn extremely religeous or turn an atheist.

You words sound as if you suffer some pain. Is it so?

[atanu]

Namaste,
This post is inspired by Yajvan’s post on the maya thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1768&page=2 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1768&page=2)

Is this suffering one experiences maya? That suffering is maya is beyond my comprehension and contrary to experience. The rishi says, “Nalpe sukham asti” yet,if I may use nirotu’s words here this suffering is as real as the ‘nose on our face’ or so it seems.

One can perhaps easily ignore one’s own suffering and accept the wisdom of ‘nalpe sukham asti’, however, personal experience (many can attest to this) is that a loved one’s suffering is the worst kind and most painful.

Seeing a loved one suffering for no apparent reason, and feeling his or her pain, is this maya?

My apologies for questioning the wisdom of the rishis. Though the wisdom may make sense at a philosophical level or a transcendental level, yet on the pracitcal plane, we can not simply say suffering is maya since it seems so ‘real’.

??

Dear Satay and Madhavan,

Satay, you know that I had created a similar thread. Like you said in that post that you could not pretend to imagine the depth of my pain, I reciprocate. And I wish and pray for mitigation of any pain, if it is there.

When pain is there, nothing works, except Guru. Mandukya Upanishad that teaches that it is Lord alone who experiences in all states, helps me. Ramayana defintely helps all.

The strength of pain is inevitably correlated to the strength of some desire or some preference of the EGO. Like we imagine a materially successful man to be very happy, without actually knowing that it is one's own reflection of a preferred desirable situation (which may not at all correspond to the real state of mind of a so-called successful man), similar is the perception of pain of a beloved.

On a lighter vein, suffering is truly as real as the ‘nose on our face’.

Pain purifies.

[Madhavan]

Pain purifies.

That is a gem. Pain involves working out some karma that brings one closer to God. Pain makes one realize and understand the pain of others and induces the quality of compassion - enabling one to follow ahimsa. Pain is the gateway to liberation. If it was all sweet nectar in the world, why the hell would people seek liberation? Without pain, God becomes unnecessary in our lives. Yes, pain hurts. Yet its advantages outweight the disadvantages in the bigger scheme of things.

[satay]

Again, I don't get this 'Pain purifies'. I can see if I were in pain myself I could eat the humble pie and say 'pain purifies', 'nalpe sukham asti', 'pain and suffering will bring me closer to God' etc. etc. but how does pain of others especially your loved ones be comprehended by this?

I think these are things that are supposed to make you feel good and accept the suffering yet for me, these don't seem to help me at all since I can't comprehend how the all loving, all merciful, all knowing God allow the suffering to continue especially of those who are helpless and dependent on others for nourishment and growth?

Not questioning God just thinking out loud and bringing forward the practicality and misery of our condition.

[satay]

namaste,


Too much of distress can cause a person to turn extremely religeous or turn an atheist.


I suppose most of us have been through both phases, I am no exception.



You words sound as if you suffer some pain. Is it so?

no, not me personally.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Again, I don't get this 'Pain purifies'.

Namaste satay,
re: I don't get this....

me neither.

Mishaps are like knives, that either serve us or cut us, as we grasp them by the blade or the handle.... James Russell Lowell

[satay]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste satay,
re: I don't get this....

me neither.


suddenly I don't feel so bad... :)

[vcindiana]

Again, I don't get this 'Pain purifies'. I can see if I were in pain myself I could eat the humble pie and say 'pain purifies', 'nalpe sukham asti', 'pain and suffering will bring me closer to God' etc. etc. but how does pain of others especially your loved ones be comprehended by this?

I think these are things that are supposed to make you feel good and accept the suffering yet for me, these don't seem to help me at all since I can't comprehend how the all loving, all merciful, all knowing God allow the suffering to continue especially of those who are helpless and dependent on others for nourishment and growth?

Not questioning God just thinking out loud and bringing forward the practicality and misery of our condition.

Your question "How does all loving, all merciful all knowing God allow the suffering" is very valid. Unless one is a saint or hermit this question keeps coming back in every person's mind. Concept of Maya or Karma can explain but cannot practically satisfy an ordinary person like me. When I see a handicapped peson or some one in pain I cannot tell him or her it is his/her Karma. For me it is downright cruel. An infant born with congenital disease cannot be blamed that the baby did bad thing in his previous life and the parents have to put up with the suffering. It is not all the time that we reap what we sow as Karma says.
Your thoughts?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam satay

there are no easy answers



Again, I don't get this 'Pain purifies'. .

catur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukrtino 'rjuna
arto jijnasur artharthi
jnani ca bharatarsabha

Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)


Mata Kunti when asked she requested nothing but pain from Krishna, why? Because only in distress she could remember Krishna and with out fail he was always around.

As they say no pain no gain. No body wishes for pain but it comes, just as sure as night follows the day, pain comes and goes, what seems insurmountable now becomes a distant memoary in due course. as my mother use to say it comes at the speed of a horse unfortunately goes (so it seems) at speed of an ant (gujrati saying)

Krishna say very clearly this sansar is (Dukhalayam asvastha) full of misery and temporary.

We can but only sympathise when our nearest and dearest suffer unfortunately we can not take their pain away. Yet as it has been said, the suffering of ours and others around us does make us reflect on life and make us ask what is this all about?

Jai Shree Krishna

[satay]

Your question "How does all loving, all merciful all knowing God allow the suffering" is very valid. Unless one is a saint or hermit this question keeps coming back in every person's mind. Concept of Maya or Karma can explain but cannot practically satisfy an ordinary person like me. When I see a handicapped peson or some one in pain I cannot tell him or her it is his/her Karma. For me it is downright cruel. An infant born with congenital disease cannot be blamed that the baby did bad thing in his previous life and the parents have to put up with the suffering. It is not all the time that we reap what we sow as Karma says.
Your thoughts?

Namaskar vcindiana,

Thank you for the post and welcome back.

As a hindu I should have no problem comprehending the pain of others as I believe fully in karmic law without a question, however, our condition is such that it is still a bitter pill to swallow, especially, when the suffering is of someone else, isn't it?

[satay]

Pranam satay

there are no easy answers




catur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukrtino 'rjuna
arto jijnasur artharthi
jnani ca bharatarsabha

Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)


Mata Kunti when asked she requested nothing but pain from Krishna, why? Because only in distress she could remember Krishna and with out fail he was always around.

As they say no pain no gain. No body wishes for pain but it comes, just as sure as night follows the day, pain comes and goes, what seems insurmountable now becomes a distant memoary in due course. as my mother use to say it comes at the speed of a horse unfortunately goes (so it seems) at speed of an ant (gujrati saying)

Krishna say very clearly this sansar is (Dukhalayam asvastha) full of misery and temporary.

We can but only sympathise when our nearest and dearest suffer unfortunately we can not take their pain away. Yet as it has been said, the suffering of ours and others around us does make us reflect on life and make us ask what is this all about?

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste GP,

Yes, there are no easy answers so it seems. I believe the words of the lords fully and without a question but still there are doubts as you can see that surface from time to time...not about the authenticity of the spoken words but of our condition and the misery of it all. What's the need of it?

What you said about 'can not take others pain away' that is something I have wondered about...wouldn't it be easier if God just made the parents suffer instead of the kids, wouldn't it be easier if God just made the 'able' suffer instead of those who are already under the misery? Why can't the karma be transferred?

Yet, some believe their guru or a saint or the monk took their sins away, perhaps sin is not the same as suffering? Not sure...

Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time...seems that there are no exceptions...yet grace is there but doesn't seem to be there all the time...what a mystery...this is ...

[atanu]

Pranam satay
-------
catur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukrtino 'rjuna
arto jijnasur artharthi
jnani ca bharatarsabha

Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)


Mata Kunti when asked she requested nothing but pain from Krishna, why? Because only in distress she could remember Krishna and with out fail he was always around.

As they say no pain no gain. No body wishes for pain but it comes, just as sure as night follows the day, pain comes and goes, what seems insurmountable now becomes a distant memoary in due course. as my mother use to say it comes at the speed of a horse unfortunately goes (so it seems) at speed of an ant (gujrati saying)

Krishna say very clearly this sansar is (Dukhalayam asvastha) full of misery and temporary.

We can but only sympathise when our nearest and dearest suffer unfortunately we can not take their pain away. Yet as it has been said, the suffering of ours and others around us does make us reflect on life and make us ask what is this all about?

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,

Very apt. Mind is such that it understands the bigger picture while going through pain only. In times of ego's exuberance it becomes the king. Only the wise remember God at all times.

I have cited this elsewhere and I will do it here again. Guru Ramana was often approached by people who had suffered ultimate pain. Guru would either keep mum or if pressed too much would ask "Did you sleep well? Were you unhappy in your sleep? Did you exist when you were asleep? What has changed that while asleep you were happy and now you are not? Has the person changed? If the person has not changed then what has changed?"

Pain is good since it alone illuminated the above Jnana to me.

The fact is that pain is a luxury of ego. Mind control through yoga or complete surrender to God are the only paths left to mind, after a stage. That is called Rudra's action -- for the love of mankind.

Let us be thankful.

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste... wouldn't it be easier if God just made the parents suffer instead of the kids, wouldn't it be easier if God just made the 'able' suffer instead of those who are already under the misery?

Namaste satay,

What you ask is quite profound....
How is the Lord involved in daily activity? We look for His grace and I think it can be won. Yet if we look at what Krsna says ( Chpt 5.14 of the Gita)
The Lord creates neither the authorship of action nor the action of beings; nor doe He create the link between the doer and the action and its fruits. Nature (Prakriti, the 3 gunas) carries this out. Yet we think we are the doer ( Chapt 3.27)


This is why the rishi's suggest that suffering is not all its cracked up to be... because it is carried out by the 3 gunas. Krsna tells us to be without the 3 gunas. Why so? Be without suffering. This is the key to your answer.


How does one do this? By knowing the SELF, become established in the SELF (Yogastha kuru karmani) and then perform actions. You are pursuing this now by your meditations, this is the yoga of Patanjali you are practicing. This gets you out of the 3 gunas over time.

Then what ? then one looks at the world, as one is now established in Brahman and says - "look , yes there is suffering, yet it is the gunas that are doing this dance - How can I help these people? I must tell them the truth, that the 3 gunas are doing all this, not the real you, not the SELF"

Then you start the conversation - withdraw , then withdraw from the withdrawal - and you start to help. This is the wisdom of the Upanishads.

pranams,

[vcindiana]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste satay,

What you ask is quite profound....
How is the Lord involved in daily activity? We look for His grace and I think it can be won. Yet if we look at what Krsna says ( Chpt 5.14 of the Gita)
The Lord creates neither the authorship of action nor the action of beings; nor doe He create the link between the doer and the action and its fruits. Nature (Prakriti, the 3 gunas) carries this out. Yet we think we are the doer ( Chapt 3.27)

............................................................
pranams,

This verse probably has the clue. This verse seems to be telling us that God is nothing to do with the nature. He has no authority or power over the nature. He cannot stop Tsunami or any natural calamities. There is absolutely no miracles. I guess we have confused nature with God. Nature has no consciousness.

[vcindiana]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste satay,

What you ask is quite profound....
..........................

This is why the rishi's suggest that suffering is not all its cracked up to be... because it is carried out by the 3 gunas. Krsna tells us to be without the 3 gunas. Why so? Be without suffering. This is the key to your answer. ......................................


How does one do this? By knowing the SELF, become established in the SELF (Yogastha kuru karmani) and then perform actions. You are pursuing this now by your meditations, this is the yoga of Patanjali you are practicing. This gets you out of the 3 gunas over time.
pranams,

Did I understand by your quote that if gunas mean nature, we need to be without it by becoming more self conscious ? An increased awareness or consciousness leads to us to be more sensitive to other person's pain or suffering and as you mentioned we can "perform action" of helping or encouraging or supporting the person suffering. Thank you for the verse.

[vcindiana]

Namaskar vcindiana,

Thank you for the post and welcome back.

As a hindu I should have no problem comprehending the pain of others as I believe fully in karmic law without a question, however, our condition is such that it is still a bitter pill to swallow, especially, when the suffering is of someone else, isn't it?

What is wrong in questioning Karmic law? As a nonreligious person I cannot understand secret behind this. The word "law" seems to me a human concept. I cannot comprehend a God writing laws, commadments, rules rituals etc.. Why people need to unnecessarily swallow bitter pills just because some one created the law of Karma just because he could not explain pain and suffering in any other way.

[satay]

Hello Vcindiana,


What is wrong in questioning Karmic law?


I can't think of anything that would be considered 'wrong' in questioning any type of law including the karmic law.



As a nonreligious person I cannot understand secret behind this. The word "law" seems to me a human concept. I cannot comprehend a God writing laws, commadments, rules rituals etc.. Why people need to unnecessarily swallow bitter pills just because some one created the law of Karma just because he could not explain pain and suffering in any other way.

I think that there is a misunderstanding here, I used the word 'law' as in a 'natural law' e.g. like the law of gravity not in the context of the word 'law' used in the judiac systems. Karmic law as I understand it is a like the law of gravity, just like no one is counting how many apples are falling off the trees, no one is counting how many good and bad karmic deeds one is doing...it is all happening automatically, naturally...it has been set in motion...

before I confuse things more, I will stop right here.

The purpose of the OP was to point out that 'suffering is maya' is contrary to practical experience as we experience this 'reality' even though it may not the absolute reality, it may be relative reality yet it seems real like the nose on our face and so does suffering, especially of someone else that we love and adore...

[Madhavan]

What is wrong in questioning Karmic law? As a nonreligious person I cannot understand secret behind this. The word "law" seems to me a human concept. I cannot comprehend a God writing laws, commadments, rules rituals etc.. Why people need to unnecessarily swallow bitter pills just because some one created the law of Karma just because he could not explain pain and suffering in any other way.

All laws can be questioned, all theories , all philosophies and all religions can be questioned and some arguments raised in favour and against them. What does it prove? Nothing. It just means truth must be known by experience rather than speculated or beleived. Karmic Law is also just another theory and there is no way to prove it to everybody's satisfaction.

Karmic law is something that exists from a relative perspective and only as long as a person thinks he is under the law. But it simply cannot be wished away just by pretending to disbelieve in it. Karmic Law is the law of justice just like the Indian Penal Code. A group of dieites appointed by God function as the judiciary of the heaven and impose these laws. Unlike the earthly courts where there is bribery and loopholes there are none here. Everything in this realm is fair and just. If you throw a stone at somebody it will hit you back no matter what. There is no place to hide in the cosmic scheme of things. Repentence and prayers take part of the load but that will not entirely free you. We have the freewill to act( freewill exist because of doership and vanishes with doership) and must take the responsibility for our thoughts and actions. God is obviously not responsible for your throwing stones at others, isnt it? There are special circumstances under which a person can bypass this Law:- by complete acceptance of whatever happens in life( if you are mature enough to see equanimity in pain and pleasure) or by reliquishing the ego that percieves the pain. Without a person to feel the pain, whom will pain act on? Either of these is easier said than done though. The nature of Self (and man) is Ananda and it is up for the grabs. There maybe some work to be done though...There is no reason for man to suffer pain if he remembers who he really is although I know mere theory cannot help alleviate pain.

[Madhavan]

This verse probably has the clue. This verse seems to be telling us that God is nothing to do with the nature. He has no authority or power over the nature. He cannot stop Tsunami or any natural calamities. There is absolutely no miracles. I guess we have confused nature with God. Nature has no consciousness.

Nature might have no consciousness but it functions through God. Nature is infact God itself seen through the senses. When senses cease, nature is non different from God. There is nothing really such as a miracle. If you show your television to a caveman he will see it as a miracle. To a higher intelligence than man, what is miracle to us is just an ordinary thing. From God's perspective there is no such thing as a miracle it is his very nature.

Miracles can and do happen. God has all power and authority over nature just like you have over your own body. Where someone will try to lower the sense of "I" and "mine" all miracles can happen. When some one is really deserving and one has humility in sufficient measure, miracles can happen.

Even natural disasters happen due to our karma only and not a random act of nature or the will of God.

[saidevo]

Namaste Satay and others.



What you said about 'can not take others pain away' that is something I have wondered about...wouldn't it be easier if God just made the parents suffer instead of the kids, wouldn't it be easier if God just made the 'able' suffer instead of those who are already under the misery? Why can't the karma be transferred?


Satay, it seems that prayer and supplication could have their beneficial effects in lessening the suffering of the beloved one. Surely, you would have placed the person suffering in a divine atmosphere, surrounded by favourite devotional music, mantras and other possible external paraphernalia.

Long back, a popular Tamil weekly ran a 'prayer club' comprising its readers who would pray at an appointed hour every Sunday morning for mitigation of the suffering of the person when an account of it was posted in the issue either by the individual or a relative or friend. In the same way, let us as HDF members pray and supplicate to God for mitigation of Satay's sorrow.

Puranas describe the story of King Yayati whose devoted son took upon his body his father's disease for six months in a year so the king could rule the country and enjoy life. Most of our rishis were family men with children. Are there any accounts of suffering of one of their beloved ones and how it was tackled in our texts?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam satay



Yes, there are no easy answers so it seems. I believe the words of the lords fully and without a question but still there are doubts as you can see that surface from time to time...not about the authenticity of the spoken words but of our condition and the misery of it all. What's the need of it?

Our intrinsic position is to be happy and yet we find ourselves in this miserable condition why and how is a mystery. The fact is we are all suffering, be it at a different level.
We are like a fish out of water, we have some how left the shelter of the lord chose this temporary material word as our home falsely identifying with it and trying to make a permanence out of something that is in nature always changing. Need is to recognize the futility of it all.




What you said about 'can not take others pain away' that is something I have wondered about...wouldn't it be easier if God just made the parents suffer instead of the kids, wouldn't it be easier if God just made the 'able' suffer instead of those who are already under the misery? Why can't the karma be transferred?

I think we need to understand this that god never makes us suffer, and I know you know this too. I can also appreciate your sentiment as a parent one becomes absolutely helpless when a child is under distress unable to express its suffering, one just have to hang in there and hopefully what ever it is will very soon pass and it does.
I remember as a child how many mantas my mother would make for our welfare. We may not be able to take others pain but we sure do try and alleviate the pain by whatever means that we feel is suitable. It is also a point to note a child is equally anxious for their parents and hope they could take their place.




Yet, some believe their guru or a saint or the monk took their sins away, perhaps sin is not the same as suffering? Not sure…

Sin is the cause of the suffering and sure guru or saint teach us to become sinless weather they take our sin of the past I am not too sure. They also ease our suffering by giving us the strength and knowledge to overcome our pain.

Maharaj Youdhistar when visiting hell noticed the jivas there were happy and wondered why? Yamraj answered it is but your present that the makes the atmosphere tranquil and thus the jiva are happy so yes in the presence of saintly person our stress would be less. For a child knows no other saintly person then the hands that rocks them.



Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time...seems that there are no exceptions...yet grace is there but doesn't seem to be there all the time...what a mystery...this is …

Krupa or the grace
The trees gives us shade, the cows gives us milk mother earth feeds us and ask nothing in return what to speak of the sweet lord who accompany us where ever we go what a pity we take everything for granted

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Atanu ji



Pain is good since it alone illuminated the above Jnana to me.

This knowledge comes at the expense of enduring great pain and suffering, the life is moulded through rough and smooth path in our journey to reach the final destination.

The luhar (iron monger) put the iron through intense heat and then beats it hard in to desired shape such is also our predicament

na hi jnanena sadrsam
pavitram iha vidyate
tat svayam yoga-samsiddhah
kalenatmani vindati

Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. One who becomes purified by Karma-yoga discovers this knowledge within (naturally) in course of time
(4.38)

Jai Shree Krishna

[atanu]

Pranam satay

----Maharaj Youdhistar when visiting hell noticed the jivas there were happy and wondered why? Yamraj answered it is but your present that the makes the atmosphere tranquil and thus the jiva are happy so yes in the presence of saintly person our stress would be less. For a child knows no other saintly person then the hands that rocks them.

------
Jai Shree Krishna

This is most valuable upadesa.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Did I understand by your quote that if gunas mean nature, we need to be without it by becoming more self conscious ? An increased awareness or consciousness leads to us to be more sensitive to other person's pain or suffering and as you mentioned we can "perform action" of helping or encouraging or supporting the person suffering. Thank you for the verse.

Namaste vcindiana,
your question is very good... yes, Nature = Prakriti = 3 Gunas.

to become "more self conscious" = become possessed of the SELF.
This is the wisdom of Jagadguru Krsna to Arjuna and Arjuna is the representative of us, the family of man.

It is the gunas that act upon themselves says Krsna. We need to be established in our SELF, then all actions are that of Prakriti, within the balance of nature. We then are established in Turiya, the 4th.
This whole HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1773 is ultimately dedicated to this matter of the 4th. I will humbly offer some additional information for our discussion today on Turiya and it will be posted in the meditation folder...

My dear friends this is the way of relief of suffering - it has alluded us for some time, yet the Gita sings of its approach - yogastha kuru karamai says Kesava, established in yoga, perform actions. What is this Yoga? Union of the SELF, this is the bridge to the Divine... being absorbed in Brahman. We need to just better understand this. For this I am in hopes we can poke around on this: What is this Turiya, How does it affect me , What do I need to do to unfold this ? These are the questions at hand as I see it... this can be a real value on HDF to get comfortable with these ideas. Very practical and useful. As my teacher says 'you become an exponent of Reality'.

pranams,

[satay]

Thanks everyone for your support and nice posts.

[sm78]

Is this suffering one experiences maya? That suffering is maya is beyond my comprehension and contrary to experience. The rishi says, “Nalpe sukham asti” yet,if I may use nirotu’s words here this suffering is as real as the ‘nose on our face’ or so it seems.............

Without going into a particular darshana of jiva-jagat-ishwar bhedabheda, how about this .....

1. Yes there is suffering ~ "as real as the ‘nose on our face’ "
2. Yes, but there is also a way to end the suffering ... <insert hindu, bauddha, jina paramparas here>

Satay or Singhi needs no convincing on point 1. It is a painful itch, which how much I hate to do, I have to scratch it every now and then.

True 2 is just a promise, one we have been told but not yet "seen". It is at best hypothetical at the moment.

The skeptic will rightly frown at this .... truely, I have no answer to his frown. Only I can ask back with an equal frown on my face ...

" Do you have anything better in Mind, Mr ? "