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nomar
13 August 2007, 10:15 AM
Evangelism & Conversion Methods

Missionaries employ various strategies to destroy other religions/cultures and convert people to their religion/denomination. The exact strategy deployed depends on the target population's situation. There are 7 categories of conversion methods: 1)Pre-evangelism 2)Personal Evangelism 3)Preaching Evangelism 4)Persuasion evangelism 5)Pastoral evangelism 6)Programmed evangelism 7)Prayer Evangelism. All the methods employed come under atleast one of these categories though many come under multiple categories. Here is the listing of the prominent methods employed.
• Alluring Children with 'Gifts', 'Toys' & Pizza
Toys with 'The Message' are given to children as gifts. A cube is very popular among teenagers. EvangeCube -- It's a cube the size of a softball made of eight interlocking blocks that flip and fold into the story of Jesus Christ on some sides and messages from Bible denouncing the native religion. This is very popular in Africa, Russia and Asia. In UK the school children are asked to stuff shoe boxes with a gift to be sent to some African nation. In US evangelicals clandestinely organise Pizza parties in schools.
• $1 + Pray Jesus = $10 (Gospel of Wealth)
Majority of the world is crazy for money & wealth. People are ready to go to any extent to acquire wealth. Church is very successful is exploiting this rage by telling people to donate (called invest) to God (i.e., their Church) and pray. Church claims that God answers their prayers by returning atleast 1000% of what people offer. When people don't get anything in return they are told that their prayers aren't sufficient or $10+prayer will atmost get him/her a bicycle not a Rolls-Royce. This is called the "Health and Wealth" gospel in the U.S.A. - you give the church 10 percent of your gross income, and God is obligated to miraculously provide for you. This idea is big in Mormon and Pentecostal circles, and it's making strong inroads among Baptists and "non-denominational" evangelicals. According to these preachers, if you aren't rich and healthy, it's because you lack faith. Uneducated, impoverished people are willing to try anything to get a good life.
• Business/Employment evangelism
Many Christian employers and employers use employment to lure and many times force a non-Christian into their sect of Christianity.
• Communication Manipulation
Communication is the key to evangelism. It is not what you say BUT 'HOW YOU SAY'.
Evangelists understand this concept better than anyone else. All the missionaries are trained in Marketing and Journalism. Marketing techniques are used to push their product (Jesus=Salvation; Other religions=Hell). Journalistic techniques are used to spin their stories, manage media and create stories about non-christian religions
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• Controlling Influential Powers/Positions
Evangelicals do not operate as hit-and-run operatives. Their ultimate objective is to control everything in the world. Earlier Church used to control everything including food, dressing, thinking and even sexual positions (allowed only missionary position). Evangelicals in the present day are trying to bring back their 'good-olden-days'. To achieve this they need to hold all the powerful positions whether in Judiciary, Army, Politics or Media. Here is a collection of news articles related to this strategy
• Creating 'LEFT-BEHIND' fear
This strategy works wonders on psychologically weak people. Evangelical Christians believe that theirs is the only true religion. They usually ask the non-christians the question of 'What would be their fate in case Christianity is the true religion and native religion is false?'. Evangelicals then describe the fate of non-christians in terms of hell, lake of fire and blood-thirsty 'second coming of Jesus' etc and advise the natives to play safe. Many psychologically weak non-christians want to play safe and convert out of fear of being 'LEFT-BEHIND'
• Disaster Relief Exploitation
Missionaries view disasters as a GOD send opportunity. They utilize disasters in two ways
Disaster Relief: "This Tsunami(disaster) is one of the greatest opportunities God has given us" says K P Yohannan, President of Gospel for Asia. Many like him do not have objection to taking advantage of hurting and suffering people are going through. In the name of disaster relief the victim's basic needs such as food,clothing, housing, medical needs are provided with a condition that they convert to christianity.
Satan Propaganda: Missionaries claim that the disaster stuck their region or village because God is angry with them. GOD is angry because non-christians worship devil and are under Satanic influence. Most of the victims will be psychologically weak and under manipulatable conditions because they lost their family members , property and undergoing depression. According to Southern Baptist Convention's official guide on Evangelism: The motivation behind Southern Baptist Disaster Relief efforts can be summed up in one phrase:"A cup of cold water in Jesus' name."
• Education
Education is a major strategy proven to work wonders in many poor nations such as Africa, South America whereas it is a partial success in India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan. Education evangelism comes in various shapes and sizes. Primary schools, Vocational training, Nurse training, Music lessons are prominent. In many regions such as Afghanistan and many Islamic countries, Education though didn't help much in direct evangelism but helped missionaries put their foot into unreached regions and establish contacts with people. School work is an excellent mask for evangelical activities.
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• Guaranteed ticket to Heaven
Sick and old people and told that if they convert, they (their bodies) are guaranteed to go to heaven. Many Old and Sick people fall prey to this technique and ask they family members to bury them along with their favorite clothing & Jewellery. This technique is prevalent among Hindu converts and Hindus cremate the bodies.
• Jesus Wells
Jesus Wells is a new and very popular technique prevalent in the dry or poverty stricken parts of the world. In this technique a well is dug or a hand pump is installed often using Government funds. In most of these places people cannot afford to have their own wells dug and rely on community wells/hand pumps which are far off.Only Christians are allowed to draw water from these sources. A pastor monitors the usage of well throughout the day. Click here for photos of Jesus wells.
• Miracles & Miracle-boxes
"Come to church and get the miracle you need" is the slogan representing this traditional game. Presently the game of Miracles is very popular in third world countries and tribal regions. The primary condition for Vatican to anoint somebody a saint is 'Proof of Miracles'. In poor regions a missionary asks people to write their wishes like bicycle, casette player, bullock cart on a piece of paper and put in the wish-box. A week after the Church from West with slush funds fulfils 'those' miracles. Intelligensia, rational and educated in west are abandoning church partly due to such cheap games.
• Music training & Programmes
Give me the music of a nation, and I will change the mind of that nation. said Plato.
Almost everybody in the world appreciates some form of music. Evangelicals are very successful in 'Music Evangelism' wherein they lure population by offering free guitar lessons and training in western dance and music in return for conversion. High-school and college going youth are particularly vulnerable to this strategy.
• Public Relations(PR) Campaigns
If there is anybody in the world who mastered the art of Public Relations (PR), it is the Western Church. They remain unscathed irrespective of the magnitude of crimes and genocides they commit. Their public relations engine works throughout the day. Due to their PR campaigns many people develop a larger than life view of missionaries and fall prey to their nefarious activities.
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• Terrorism & Militancy
North-East India is a living example of Church sponsored terrorism. Tribals who refused to convert to Christianity are massacred. Baptist Church of Nagaland is the command centre of terrorism in Nagalim i.e., "Nagaland for Christ"
• Abduction/Kidnap
Abduction was a very popular method employed on tribes. It was Primarily employed on native tribes of Canada, America and Australia. This strategy is still used but at a much smaller scale while ensuring secrecy
• Academic/History Rewriting
This strategy helps in generating a low opinion and delinking natives from their native religions, cultures and traditions. Fredrich Max Muller, Wendy Donniger, Paul Courtright, Jeffrey Kirpal etc are examples of these. Max Muller claimed that "he will write/translate Upanishads in such a way that no Hindu would ever respect them again". Jeffrey Kirpal established an incestuous relationship between Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Vivekananda whereas Paul Courtright calls Hindu Lord Ganesha a oral-sex obsessed character.
A normal Hindu won't call himself a 'proud Hindu' after reading this literature and often becomes an object of ridicule in his society. Though many of these Scholars don't call themselves active missionaries they successfully play part-1 of the missionary game i.e., delinking.
• Alcoholism
Missionaries brought alcohol and promoted alcoholism to many tribal communities (example Polynesia/Tahiti). The leaders habituated to alcohol did everything what missionaries said losing their entire communities to christianity.
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• Brainwashing/Hypnosis
Conversion is a "nice" word for Brainwashing...and any study of brainwashing has to begin with a study of Christian revivalism in eighteenth century America. Apparently, Jonathan Edwards accidentally discovered the techniques during a religious crusade in 1735 in Northampton, Massachusetts. By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the "sinners" attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit. Technically, what Edwards was doing was creating conditions that wipe the brain slate clean so that the mind accepts new programming. He would tell those attending, "You're a sinner! You're destined for hell!"
• Charity, Bribing and Buying souls
Charity is the most popular technique employed currently. This provides a very secular cover and insulates from all forms of questioning. This is used primarily to place long-term missionaries. They take the form of language teachers, social workers, AIDS/HIV workers etc.
• Child Trafficking/Orphanages
Though there a very few genuine Christian charity orphanages majority of the orphanages springing up today are mainly centres of indoctrination. They believe in the 'Catch them young' principle. Many orphanages claim that they are building the future christian workers.
• Christian Ashrams & Sadhus
Hindus have high respect for Ashrams (Hermitage) and Sadhus (Swamis). Grasping the popularity Christians have started donning saffron robes and look-alike ashrams. Many Hindus get fooled by those outward appearances and become part of these ashrams. A good example is ShantiVanam Ashram run by swindler Fr. Bede Griffiths. The place looks and feels like a Hindu ashram. Fr. Bede Griffiths wears saffron robes, sports a vermillion mark and the entire place reverberates with meditation and chanting. Behold everything they utter is Jesus and Paul.
• Contextualization/Inculturation
Contextualization is the process of adoption the native culture, practices and beliefs to make the non-christians believe that they are not in a different world. It is an infiltration technique. Hindus have 'Mangal sutra', (a special type of chain) as part of the marriage ceremony. Not to be left behind, Christians now offer it's equivalent 'Yesu - Sutra' in the marriages. Every Hindu and Buddhist ritual have copycats now.
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• Converting Influential people
This strategy involves converting influential people such as village headman, politicians, Cine/theater artists, sportsmen etc employing an appropriate conversion technique. These people act as brand managers of Christianity influecing their followers. Recent examples include politicians of TamilNadu, Andhra - India, various south Indian film actors and heads of many villages.
• Create "Artificial" Disasters
Disaster relief is a successful and prove technique for mass conversion. History tells us that even when no disaster existed missionaries were successful in creating artificial disasters so as to control the administration. A classic example is creation of "artificial famine" in India in 1918-1919. The slang "Holy Cow" originated during that period
• Create Guilt
This strategy revolves around the idea of blaming the native religion as the source of major problems. In 1975-1976 missionaries failed in all their strategic attempts to convert Panare Indians of the Colorado Valley. The missionaries re-edited the Bible saying "The Panare killed Jesus Christ because they were wicked....God will burn you all, burn all the animals, burn also the earth,the heavens, absolutely everything.He will burn also the Panare themselves.". Panare Indians fealt guilty of their ancestral crime and converted to Christianity to avoid 'Revenge of Jesus'. This is currently being used against Muslims. Muslims are told that Islam is the source of extremism in the world and Muslims should come out of Islam to be guilt-free.
• Deceptive Church Buildings
Churches which look like native religion structures. In Africa churches look like mosques with a crescent like cross and are aptly names Isa-mosque. In India and SriLanka 'Yesu Mandirs' (Jesus Temple) are quite common. They look and feel like Hindu temples. This falls under deception and contextualization main strategies. This strategy is working wonders in Africa and rural areas in mid-east countries.
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• Denigration and Hate Spreading
According to Christianity every non-christian religion is a work of Satan and every non-christian worships Satan. These strategies are primarily used to motivate their fellow missionaries and to create ill-will among non-christians about their religion
• Divide & Conquer(convert)
This is one of the most popular deceitful techniques employed throughout the missionary history. Differences and enimity among individuals are created or exploited in pitting one group against another. This is very popular among tribals as it is very easy to generate enimity between two clans. The British and American missionaries successfully employed this technique in India by Horizontally and vertically dividing the Indian society into Aryans and Dravidians, Dalits & non-Dalits. The "Missionary Scholars" manufactured theories (without proof) supporting these divisions with the help of some sold-out Indians.
• Economic Success Deception
In many third world and poor countries, missionaries advertise that the West (America and Europe) are rich because of Christianity though the truth is contrary. Many gullible people equate economic prosperity to adoption of Christianity and convert. Mark Twain rightly said, " The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born."
• Excessive children/Armies of God's soldiers
Many Christian families produce excessive number of children to be brought up in a different fundamentalist cult like mentality. These kids grown up in such restrictive and conditioned environment are expected to carry forward and impose the fundamentalist mentality they are brought up in. The pastor or father controls everything related to upbringing of the children such as even picking the nail color the kids can use.
• Exorcism
Catholic church promotes the notion that the negative tendencies in the world are due to Devils(imaginary creatures). How to get rid of Devils?. Catholic church practices an occult medieval practice called Exorcism. When a comman man is in trouble, the local church clandestinely brainwashes the gullible that Devils are source for all the ills and they have the solution called 'Exorcism' to get rid of Satan/Devils. The common man under distress easily falls into this trap.
• Exploiting the Prisoners
Prisoners are usually at the mercy of jail officials. Evangelicals usually take up employment in prisons or befriend prison officials.
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• Fake Medical Conditions
Fake medicines: This technique is very popular in rural India. In mission hospitals a non-christian patient is given a white tablet (not a medicine) and asked to pray his Hindu God. After 1 day when the patient sees no reprieve to his medical condition the patient is given a real medicine and asked to pray Jesus. Hindu tradition respects any religion or any Godly person. The healing by medicine is claimed for his prayer to Jesus.
Fake situations: This is a popular technique in Indian villages. This is a true story which happened in 2003 in W Godavari Dist, Andhra Pradesh, . A woman in labour was brought into a mission hospital. The doctor (a Westerner) found that the lady is going to deliver in 10 minutes. The doctor and the staff immediately made a big scene saying that the mother and baby are in danger and the family was asked to pray. The family started praying to their family deity Lord Venkateswara. In 2 minutes the doctor started yelling that their prayers are useless and asked the family to join him in praying Jesus and take a vow that if the mother delivers safely the entire family would convert. As expected the mother delivered the baby after 8 minutes. He immediately put a chain (with cross) on the just born baby and the entire family converted to keep their (deceived) promise.
• Fear of "End of World" (Acocalypse)
Missionaries brainwash and instill a fear that 'end-of-the-world' is coming. Missionaries 'guarantee' heaven (as if they own that dreamland) to converts and those who don't convert are cast in the 'Lake of Fire'. Guillible,illiterate and weak fall prey to that concept and convert. Earthquakes and recently Indian Ocean Tsunami were all marketed by missionaries as a'divine wrath and warning from GOD' for not converting
• Fear of death or Slavery
This was a prominent technique employed on North and South American natives.
An enterprising European official sailed to the Central American mainland in 1514 in search of Gold and to convert natives. They adopted a very simple approach.
They traveled by night, stopping at midnight outside a chosen village. Before they entered, they declared loudly: "Princes and Indians, there is one God, one pope, and one king of Castile, who is lord of this country. Come at once and render him obedience, or we will make war on you, kill you, and put you into slavery."

nomar
13 August 2007, 10:16 AM
Natives for the fear of death and slavery immediately accepted Christianity. Currently South America has the most populous Christian nations.
• Free houses or agricultural land
Missionaries often buy souls by promising and sometimes providing free housing or agricultural land to poor. In many instances pastors cheat by luring free housing on a future data which never sees light.
• Genocides
The Vatican-sponsored Croatian Ustashe regime is famous for the death camp records it set during the Nazi genocides. Native tribes of Canada do not have a sympathetic ear. Wiccans, Native Americans, Natives of South America are a few examples
• Government support
Many repressive states around the world force people to choose the religions they recognize. South Korea, China, Indonesia, Russia are some such countries. Earlier a converted ruler used to force the entire population to change the religion.
• Healing
This is a major fraud committed on weak minds. Benny Hinn is a modern-leader in this field.
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• Manhunt
MANHUNT, involves the missionaries going out, sometimes in motorized vehicles, hunting for natives to integrate them into reservations set up for missionary work. The New Tribes Mission (NTM), for instance, went on such a manhunt in Paraguay. Five missionized natives were killed in one such manhunt. Those unconverted natives were taken to the NTM camp in Campo Loro. Within a short while, according to Survival International, all had died of new diseases they had no immunity to. Stung by criticism, the best reply the NTM 's Director in Paraguay could muster was: "We don't go after people anymore. We just provide transport."
• Marriage/Family Pressure
This is a very popular technique among middle-class families. In a marriage involving a non-christian bride (often against her family's wishes), the christian family assures that they do no have any objection with girl's religion. Within weeks of marriage the christian family declares that the girl's religion is not acceptable to them giving the newly wed girl two options i.e., conversion to christianity or divorce. In order to save her marriage the girl often converts. Many marriage counsellors in India report a significant rise in such cases. Unable to bear the torture in many instances the girl commits suicide. Read the experiences of Sanal Edamaraku.
• Medical/Hospital Evangelism
Evangelism in hospitals and by medical staff is a very popular mechanism in under-developed or developing countries. Usually patients and their family would be in a state of distress and ready to do anything to get out the hardship. Hospital staff exploit this weakness and convert people fooling them that conversion would help them recover lost health.
Examples of medical evangelism:
Using of medicines to convert poor Hindus
• Mini/Micro Loans
A very popular technique among sub-urban regions wherein the pastor/father gives a small amount as a loan. Ofter the native is asked to repay when he is not in a position to payback (ex: crop dumpling phase etc). The other option given to the farmer is conversion to christianity.
• Persecution Game
Missionaries always keep up the ante that 'Christians around the world are persecuted because of their beliefs'. Are Christians really persecuted in India? Persecution game is played to gain sympathy, extract dollars from western sources and ward off any potential opposition to their sinster activity. Part of this process was creation of USCIRF (US Commission for Internation Religious Freedom) which is supposed to monitor persecution of christians around the world but it won't look at the heinous crimes committed by christians. Check All India Christian Council (the nodal organisation of all christian entities). The website is titled 'Christian Persecution IndiaPaul Kurtz analyses the movie The Passion was made as a political weapon.
• Scaring with Hell House/Fear Evangelism
Christian-themed haunted houses/hell-houses are very popular in US. According to a conversative estimate there are atleast 1000 such houses in US. These houses are extremely graphic and reverberate with scary sounds reproducing Christian definition of Hell. These houses serve dual purpose ie., income generation through ticket sales and bringing in more converts as many convert due to fear.
• Scripture Manipulation
Evangelicals are masters in manipulating their scriptures as well as non-christian scriptures. They are promoting and funding theories that Hinduism evolved (though 5000+ years old) evolved from Christianity, Buddhism civilized itself by adapting Christian thoughts and Islam was created by Vatican Church to promote it's vested interests.
• Torture
The word Inquisition explains the strategy called 'Torture' in handling 'heretics'. The cost of torture and and burning was paid by the victim or his/her relatives. Torture is justified in Bible"
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" - John (15:6)
Reference: CrusadeWatch.Org
Other Similar Resources:
The Rape of India by David Kostinchuk
THE RAPE OF INDIA by David Kostinchuk (http://www.skeptictank.org/rapeindi.htm)
The Jungle of Christ by David Kostinchuk
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/jungle_christ.htm

Eastern Mind
11 September 2007, 08:44 PM
So we know they're out there, using tons of devious tricks, all in the name of Jesus. State governments and country governments are on the right track, IMO, when banning proseltysing. But what are some practical steps we as Hindus can take on an individual level? The consequences are many if we don't take steps. As Swami Dayanda Saraswati put it, it's violence. He made a list of consequences, and I'm sure you can find many in Hinduism Today as well. Last year at the school where I teach, the people here unknowingly promoted Shepherd's Purse packaging of 'care' boxes to be shipped to 'the poor people' as a Christmas deed. I didn't have time to stop it last year, but I did do my bit to show the principal of the school the other side of this program. Searching the internet for anti stories, and just an honest discussion perhaps swayed him. Looking forward to what happens this year. Its the deceit that got me. The innocent students here were duped as well, thinking all along that they were just being charitable. I do think besides understanding that its out there, we must take personal steps to educate the masses, mostly who wouldn't help out if they only knew the harm it does. I AM a proud Hindu. Aum Namashivaya

Znanna
11 September 2007, 10:01 PM
Namaste,

Some need to preach (or, give speaches -sic- lol) to plead their troth.

As far as I'm concerned they can talk and maybe walk the talk, but it really makes no difference to me. Sheesh, it's all I can muster to be what I am much less to worry about what they are!


ZN
/saying

atanu
12 September 2007, 11:13 AM
It's all I can muster to be what I am much less to worry about what they are!

I am listening to Thiruvachakam, translated from Tamil by a christian and put to music by a philharmonic orcherstra conducted by Illayaraja. Next I will listen to 'Imagine' of John Lennon. God will manage my world, because it is His world.

It's all I can muster not to worry about what they do, much less to remember Anbe Sivam.

Om Namah Shivaya

Eastern Mind
12 September 2007, 09:04 PM
Atanu, znanna... I agree that one must remember Anbe Sivam, or at least keep striving to remember that you are the Self, The Supreme is the reality and all that. But I disagree that we should ignore them. I think we have a duty to protect Hindu Dharma as a group karma. Its one thing to remember on the inside who we are and our core beliefs, but on a more practical level, just when do we stand up, and not ignore them? If an extreme Christian zealot entered your house, and decided it was his duty to destroy your altar, what would you do? (I'm just using an extreme example to make a point.) When they continue to portray Hinduism in a negative light, we need to take a stand, of course within the laws, and our own ahimsa belief. Take the textbook controversy in California, for instance. I, for one, am glad somebody took a stand, and managed with limited success, to have our dear Sanatana Dharma portrayed to American kids in a more positive light. Otherwise the ignorance just continues. Aum Namashivaya

saidevo
12 September 2007, 10:08 PM
I always wonder why the liberal Christians don't speak out and advise their own misguided zealots. Conciliatory talk and advice always originate from us Hindus and the liberal Christians also ask us to keep our cool and be mum! This is happening over and over again.

Let us remember the stand taken by Vivekananda, Dayananda Sarasvati of the Arya Samaj, even Mahatma Gandhi against the Christian conversion missions, and the active role played today by Dayananda Sarasvati of the Arsha Vidhya Gurukulam, Shankaracharyas of the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam and other Sankara Mathams and work to strengthen their hands in the fight against adharmic forces and reinforcing the culture and tradition of ancient India.

atanu
13 September 2007, 01:18 AM
Namaste Eastern Mind and Saidevoji,

No doubt one's duty must be done as worship of the Self.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

suresh
14 September 2007, 08:53 AM
I always wonder why the liberal Christians don't speak out and advise their own misguided zealots. Conciliatory talk and advice always originate from us Hindus and the liberal Christians also ask us to keep our cool and be mum! This is happening over and over again.


Namaste Saidevo,

This is so very true. Liberals from Hindu, Muslim, and Christian communities advise hindus to maintain communal harmony, if there's jihad or christian aggression directed against the Hindus. You must've noticed this after every terrorist attack. Hindus are invariably told that muslims are peaceful, that terrorism is just a blot on Islam, and hindus should remain calm and uphold secular values, and so forth.

If something like gujarat riot takes place, it would be considered insensitive if we're to advise the muslims/christians to maintain communal harmony, and not worry about hindu backlash.;) In short, hindus must shut up if christians/muslims 'do their thing'. If they don't, as it happens once in a while, they will be labeled 'fanatics.' How reasonable!:rolleyes:

Suresh

Znanna
14 September 2007, 08:01 PM
Atanu, znanna... I agree that one must remember Anbe Sivam, or at least keep striving to remember that you are the Self, The Supreme is the reality and all that. But I disagree that we should ignore them. I think we have a duty to protect Hindu Dharma as a group karma. Its one thing to remember on the inside who we are and our core beliefs, but on a more practical level, just when do we stand up, and not ignore them? If an extreme Christian zealot entered your house, and decided it was his duty to destroy your altar, what would you do? (I'm just using an extreme example to make a point.) When they continue to portray Hinduism in a negative light, we need to take a stand, of course within the laws, and our own ahimsa belief. Take the textbook controversy in California, for instance. I, for one, am glad somebody took a stand, and managed with limited success, to have our dear Sanatana Dharma portrayed to American kids in a more positive light. Otherwise the ignorance just continues. Aum Namashivaya


Were an "extreme Christian zealot" to enter my house, they would not be invited into the prayer room. And, regardless of one's proclivities, when in this house one cannot help but enjoy as it is the beauty and serenity which is created here :)

Good feelings are not an aspect of a particular religion ... everyone who comes here enjoys peace and serenity and happiness; orthodoxy is entirely irrelevant.


ZN
/just saying

atanu
15 September 2007, 02:27 AM
Namaste Saidevo,

This is so very true. Liberals from Hindu, Muslim, and Christian communities advise hindus to maintain communal harmony, if there's jihad or christian aggression directed against the Hindus. You must've noticed this after every terrorist attack. Hindus are invariably told that muslims are peaceful, that terrorism is just a blot on Islam, and hindus should remain calm and uphold secular values, and so forth.

If something like gujarat riot takes place, it would be considered insensitive if we're to advise the muslims/christians to maintain communal harmony, and not worry about hindu backlash.;) In short, hindus must shut up if christians/muslims 'do their thing'. If they don't, as it happens once in a while, they will be labeled 'fanatics.' How reasonable!:rolleyes:

Suresh

Namaste Suresh,


I am embodied with certain gunas which makes me see the universe in certain fashion. Consciousness is ONE, thus views are common at certain level. But at reaction level, every one differs.

As per my gunas, I am troubled by lot many things, including the mindless killing by terrorists or more subtle conversion techniques of christians. Included in this reactive mechanism is also the views of so-called gurus who speak ill of other gurus (like the one you posted). The violent killing of 10 alleged thiefs by higher caste hindus Bihar, untouchability, illiteracy, corruption, starving deaths, and most painful is my dictator senior at office. Wherever my separate I sense is hurt, I am perturbed.

What do I do? Everyone has some such karma to overcome. I do not say that I am successful, but my aim is set at the following Upadeshas.

Isha Upanishad


6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.
7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?
8. That (Self) is all-pervading, radiant, bodiless, soreless, without sinews, pure, untainted by sin, the all-seer, the lord of the mind, transcendent and self-existent. That (Self) did allot in proper order to the eternal Prajapatis known as samvalsara (year) their duties.


If I am not a khatriya by duty, working for police or for military, least I can do is to spread the message of sanatana dharma fearlessly, through any medium possible and without animosity.


In this light each one can decide on one's appropriate role and also decide whether bitterness can produce any solution or not?


As Ramana Maharshi says "Problems of the world were always there and will always be there. The problems are not apart from one's consciousness."


Om Namah Shivaya

Gotam
16 September 2007, 12:08 PM
As a European, I think Indian Hindus are quite right in distrusting Christian missionaries. Unlike the vast majority of modern Christians, who laugh at the very idea of fearing hellfire, most missionaries still believe they can save other people’s souls by converting them. Unfortunately, such superstitions, that run counter to the spiritual heart of Christian faith, have been a mainstream doctrine in Christian churches during most of their history. If Christian proselytism in India did not result from ignorance, its existence would be an appalling insult to the greatness and riches of Hindu religion and civilisation. That remains true if we admit that the small and rather decreasing percentage of Christians in India can hardly ever become a serious threat.

After the atrocities of two World Wars, Europeans have abandoned 19th century belief in Western superiority. We have dropped much of our traditional prejudice about Hinduism. Millions of us are familiar with yoga, and not always as superficially as Indians living in India may think we are (hardly anyone still regards hatha yoga as a kind of gymnastics, and other forms of yoga are well-known and widely practiced now). Millions of modern Christians accept that Hindus have found many paths to Truth that can complete, improve or even become their own path. I do not like the idea of Hindus converting to Christianity at all, and neither do Millions of other Europeans. We do not consider Jesus as God’s only human incarnation anymore. We do not believe we can teach spirituality to India. We are grateful we can learn from Hindus.

Christian missionaries not only want to convert. Typically, even if they know that charity will not lead to conversions, they will hope to redeem their own souls by doing charitable work. Let them do just that, and may Hindu and tribal Indians take care of their own souls themselves!

After having contributed to Chinese and Japanese culture, Indian spirituality is conquering Europeans’ and Americans’ hearts without having to send any Hindu or Buddhist missionary to the West. Universality does not need preachers.

As early as the 4th century, Christianity benefited from Hindu influence. Long before, India probably even gave us our Indo-European mother tongues. While she may not be our mother, India has certainly been a most generous aunt to us. Thank you, Aunt India! The West has often lacked humility. May all Christian missionaries truly respect your great religion and your hospitality! Om Shanti.

Eastern Mind
16 September 2007, 08:52 PM
Gotam: I truly wish there were more liberal Christians such as yourself out there, but I fear you were being overly optimistic. Perhaps it is because you are from Europe, and not America, where most of the highly fundamentalist groups tend to have their head offices. Earlier on this thread, someone posted the long list of methods missionaries use, so I won't go into that. In my opinion and experience, it is somewhat more than a plain annoyance when deceptive means are employed. The Pope as you know got into trouble over some of his statements while in India, and he probably wouldn't be classified as 'fundamentalist'. Of course that all depends on who's doing the classifying. I find it more subtle and cancerous, and done in small steps. I for one, would rather see someone come straight out and state their agenda than use any type of 'slowly get to know them, slowly convert them tactics. The late Bede Griffiths also comes to mind on this topic, and for the other thread about the Muslim fellow pretending to be a Shankaracharya. To quote a catholic father from Sri Lanka whom my guru quoted about the Catholic schools there..."They may never become catholics, but they certainly won't be good Hindus." Its the slow technique, used over several generations even. Hindus need to stand up, and not accept any forms of deceitful conversion. After all, if we want a bible, just existing on this planet probably means we've heard of it, and can go buy one if we're interested. Thanks again for your post and the thanking of Mother India. Aum Namashivaya

saidevo
17 September 2007, 05:25 AM
Namaste.


I truly wish there were more liberal Christians such as yourself out there, but I fear you were being overly optimistic. Perhaps it is because you are from Europe, and not America, where most of the highly fundamentalist groups tend to have their head offices.

This is what M.S.N. Menon observes about America in his article Portrait of a sick society published in the Organiser issue dated Sep.16,2007:



Portrait of a sick society
by M.S.N. Menon

Then it was Katherine Mayo Gandhi called her report on India the “Drainage Inspector’s report”. Now it is Wendy Doniger. What shall we call her? I know the word. But I’ll be silent.

But I will not be silent on America. It is the great empire of our times. It holds the world through bluff, bluster and blackmail. And it has done the maximum damage to the image of India.

Do you know whether America is your friend or foe? Obviously, you do not, for America lives more often behind masks. It confuses you all the time.

Of course, America over-estimated the powers of human contrivances (weapons) and underestimated the powers of tradition (nationalism). Thus, it overestimated its capacity to Americanise the world and failed to understand the most profound movement of the last century—the national liberation movement. It paid for it.

The “open society” of America is also a sick society. It wants to be the cop and the robber all at once. With con men and counterfeiters, gangsters and maniacs setting at naught America’s efforts to guarantee ordered life, America remains raw and primitive. It is sick over its importance abroad, sick of the surfeit of crime at home and sick because it has no purposive vision to offer the young.

But what it producing these crops of maniacal and unstable characters in American society? The “refuse” of Europe. It turned out to be criminal (Hannah Arendt). The American “lonely crowd” (Reisman) tends to crime. The Americans are mere slaves of a production process. And it is this that produces recurrent spasms and revolts.

The American pioneers made deals with the devil himself, but the Americans of today fail to understand when the angry ones of Asia and Africa make a deal with the devil and take to terrorism. They are prepared to gamble with their destiny by pushing it a little too fast.

The metaphor of American politics is of a wagon train—with a promised land at the end, with an evergreen valley. The men who run this wagon train are supposed to know what America wants. But do they? Between the personal frailties of the Presidents and the public purpose of the Presidencies there is a wide gap. And that is not always determined by the exigencies of the White House but by the unspoken ambition of the ruling classes and the giant corporations.

It is true a Roosevelt or a Kennedy might transcend the limitations of their society. But they were no great visionaries. They were men ill at ease with the broad vision of a Thomas Pakne or Jefferson, or the Utopianism of the ideologies of Europe.

The American society still thrives, but it is sick within. It is the modern Babylon. It frightens nations by its awesome power. And yet it must cry out its heart one day that it wasted its years of unchallenged global power and affluence only to hold the world in its thrall.

American society is the deafest in the world. Its government is deaf by design and its people are deaf by ignorance. America listens no more, not even to the sanest of words. And a large part of the world has grown mute before this unpredictable bully, some out of fear and some for the sake of doles. You cannot reason with America just as you cannot reason with a tiger.

It shall not be said of America, as Thucydides said of the Greeks, that “we shall be the wonder of the world not only of today’s men, but of all times.” When American power bows out of the world stage, as it must—and that day is not far off—there shall be nothing left to recall it except the memory of a nightmare.

The American President appear larger than life because it is part of the mythology surrounding American Presidents that they should appear in the heroic mould. And yet the private pathologies of the incumbents of the White House, which have come down to us through anecdotes and apocrypha, continue to shock us.

The American Presidents have inherited the mantle of the Roman Caesars. And yet when the pants were down, Clinton was no more than a plebeian on the streets of Rome.

But it does not end here. The world is also called upon to pay a price to keep up the image of America as the Hegemon of the world. And it has the Presidency, the State Department, the Pentagon, CIA, Wall Street, the Church, the Academia and so on to prop up its image. The American ruling classes believe that they are a “chosen people” to guide the ignorant of the world. Wendy Doniger is one of the foot-soldiers of this chosen tribe. She thinks that Hindus are living in “darkness” and that we need the light of Christianity. Little does she realise that the torch that Christianity lighted was not meant as Rabindranth Tagore said to give light but to start fires in the world. No, thank you, we can do without your light.

http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=201&page=15

Eastern Mind
17 September 2007, 04:53 PM
Namaste Saidevo: Wow, that really summed it up 'nicely'. I agree. The people I do feel sorry for are those Americans, and there are tons, (like the ones on here) who do not hold the opinions of their government, yet have to abide in that society, have to vote when there are no real choices to vote for, are despised elsewhere simple for being American, not judged on individual merit. I don't know what I'd do if I were born in that country. I think I'd have to move. Aum Namashivaya

Gotam
17 September 2007, 07:55 PM
Eastern Mind, I have neither seen India nor America; I have no idea of how frequently missionaries resort to deceptive methods, nor of how accurately Hindus perceive them. But a sentence like: "They may never become Catholics, but they certainly won't be good Hindus", spoken by a Christian who is a Hindu country’s guest, is very ungrateful and saddening. Unfortunately, it perfectly fits into the traditional Christian worldview that understands itself as truth competing with other, wrong views. One of the rudest Western habits is our giving – at least superficially – well intended but poisoned and unwelcome “presents” to other people. Westerners abroad have treated other cultures like that, and many of our parents still treat their own children like that, preparing the next generation’s repetition of our mistakes.

Having lived in a Muslim country, I cannot but appreciate and admire the attitude adopted by the Hindus in this forum, who, instead of objecting to proselytism itself, which would be rather legitimate, limit themselves to criticising the methods used. When you Hindus complain about other people’s misbehaviour, there still seems to be a lot of tolerance in your complaint. Such friendliness can be strength, and I hope it will work out that way. It is certainly not the worst way of bringing home to some Westerners that their religion can only be a gift for you if it strengthens, rather than weakens, yours. However, excessive tolerance of our narrow-mindedness may not be the best present India can give to the West and to the weakest members of her own society.

With regard to Americans who disagree with their government, I would like to add that we Europeans do not necessarily always confuse them with American international policy, and that we don't always like to be called "anti-American" when we think like and sympathise with Millions of Americans.

Om shanti.

Eastern Mind
17 September 2007, 08:15 PM
You wrote "When you Hindus complain about other people’s misbehaviour, there still seems to be a lot of tolerance in your complaint." Why thank you, and its true, for the vast majority we are very tolerant. But don't confuse tolerance with acceptance. To tolerate means 'to allow to exist' Of course this is one of the reasons I am a Hindu. That belief, among others, drew me to Hinduism in the first place. I do believe Hinduism is the greatest religion in the world for me. It's too bad every fundamentalist didn't either preface their statements with 'I believe" or end it with 'for me' . Of course then they wouldn't be fundamentalists, would they? Just because your favorite colour is red doesn't mean mine is. They could see a simple analogy like that, and yet when it comes to belief, they just don't get it. They have this deep rooted psychological need to convince others. I think in reality most are still just trying to convince themselves. That and the base emotion of fear... fear of death, fear of hell, fear of poverty. Of course as Hindus, are basic tenets of no hell, karma, and reincarnation overcome those fears rather quickly. Aum Namashivaya