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vcindiana
11 August 2007, 10:41 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste vcindiana,
You ask much - I am impressed that you have this interest. I will not address all this now..............Go past the first pages, and go into these... many have spent time actually thinking though these. You will see quickly on sifting out the diamonds from the rocks.

We will then address some of your questions as the month gets brighter...

pranams,


Thank you again for your reply.
In general we janitors are not well read like you learned people. We just need God to trust and revere and we know he some how takes care of us. All we care about is work ethics and service attitude.

It appears you have sifted the diamond out of rocks but unable to tell me in a few sentences what this diamond is? It is great to be philosophic but every day's life of mine depends on pragmatic things.

You still have not clealy defined the meaning of Cosciousness and how it has impacted your daily work.

yajvan
11 August 2007, 12:34 PM
Hari OM
~~~~~

Thank you again for your reply

It appears you have sifted the diamond out of rocks but unable to tell me in a few sentences what this diamond is? It is great to be philosophic but every day's life of mine depends on pragmatic things.

You still have not clealy defined the meaning of Cosciousness and how it has impacted your daily work.

Namaste vcindiana,
If others wish to address this question in the next few days deeper and wider, please do not hesitate.
vcindiana, please read - http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=14138&postcount=3 to prepare for the conversation.

re: how it impacts my work - nothing can be done without this consciousness being engaged; the impact: no consciousness or awareness means no work, no recogntion of any activity. The impact is consciousness is the fabric of life. All of us cannot pursue one thing, take one step without this ability of awareness ( which is consciousness applied).

Perhaps the question is - how has the development of consciousness, to increase ones full potential impacted ones daily routine? Then that is a different discussion.

Last point for your kind consideration ... If you have interest in this whole matter of consciousness and the subjects at hand on HDF, may I recommend some reading - Please consider the Bhagavad Gita to start.
At least read the first 6 chapters. This will give you food for thought and for sharing... Why do I suggest this vcindiana? to gain some equal footing.

How so? at HDF the way we approach a subject or idea is that of playing tennis. One brings a ball ( an idea) and volleys to another. The volley back and forth is the sharing of ideas and a mutual respect for ones knowledge or ideas. Some times we play doubles or even triples - and even change out the players. That is, the community of HDF is welcomed on each discussion. Some may sit down and watch the game , others may join in.
What we (I) prefer is not playing fetch the ball. One comes and throws-out an idea or question, and HDF members are expected to go 'fetch' the answer and bringing it back. Another ball is thrown out , and again brought back. ONe does not know if the answer met the need, or if the next ball will be in the air, on the ground, etc. There is no mutual exchange of benefit, its all one way.

May I suggest and offer you to play tennis at HDF...

thank you,

saidevo
11 August 2007, 10:14 PM
Namaste vcindiana.



In general we janitors are not well read like you learned people. We just need God to trust and revere and we know he some how takes care of us. All we care about is work ethics and service attitude.

It appears you have sifted the diamond out of rocks but unable to tell me in a few sentences what this diamond is? It is great to be philosophic but every day's life of mine depends on pragmatic things.

You still have not clealy defined the meaning of Cosciousness and how it has impacted your daily work.


From what you have written about your life and work, it is certain that you are already on the Karma Yoga path, which is the path of service to God. You believe in God, do your work well and honestly but do not look or have time to look beyond it presently. Fine.

Let me assure you that you don't have to read much to analyze and channelize your Consciousness. You only need to consider, think, brood over and when you are ready, meditate. This thinking process will channelize your reading so you obtain only the required information and not pour over entire philosophical works.

As you have defined using a dictionary (post #83), Consciousness is essentially awareness. Who has this awareness? The human soul. So Consciousness is the very Atma, Self or Soul itself. Now Atma or Soul is pure energy and has its origin in Brahman, the One God. This Atma is now embodied in a human body and it activates the body which has external and internal senses. These senses are there to experience the world within the limits of the current life of the Atma, right?

So the Shakti or the power or energy of Consciousness is channelized right down to the senses to experience the world. All these senses have three primary channels at their root through which these other channels branch off, as with the human nervous system. The three primary channels through which Consciousness or the Atma expresses itself and flows through are the Will, Wisdom and Activity.

The Will, Wisdom and Activity are the three root Shaktis or powers of a human soul. The Will is the IcchA Shakti or the power of Desire, Wisdom is the JnAna Shakti or the power of knowledge and Activity is the KriyA Shakti or the power of creation. (In Sanskrit terms, as you are aware, any captilized letter after the first letter represent the longer vowels, A for aa, ah, au and so on. Incidentally, the English term 'itch' perhaps has its root in this term IcchA and 'create' has its root in KriyA).

All your activities comprise these three Shaktis: desire, knowledge and action. And the right combinations of them decide whether what you do is good or bad, spiritually helpful or not, and whether you are applying your Consciousness to your benefit or not. It may not be exactly an yes-or-no situation, but it certainly is a more-or-less situation.

This more-or-less situation arises when you don't properly employ or apply your Consciousness using all these three channels: desire, knowledge, action. There are situations where these three channels are not employed in full. Using the numbers 0 and 1 for yes and no, and representing them in the order d(esire)-k(nowledge)-a(ction) you have these eight combinations:

0-0-0, 0-0-1, 0-1-0, 0-1-1, 1-0-0, 1-0-1, 1-1-0, 1-1-1 or
0-0-0, 0-0-a, 0-k-0, 0-k-a, d-0=0, d-0-a, d-k-0, d-k-a

Notice that only in the last case you have full application of the three channels. The first case is what you experience in your deep sleep. The other cases arise in your wakeful and dream states of life.

What are the results of these partial combinations? That depends on the life and situation an Atma is placed in its current birth. And then there is the question of Right or Wrong. How do you know the right and wrong of a combination? It is right if it helps you to grow spiritually, wrong if it does not. But then it need not be this rigid as right and wrong; it is actually a case of more or less.

Why should you grow and mature spiritually just as you grow and mature physically? It is in the very nature of Atma to get back to its Source, just like a waterfall gushes into a river and traces its way down to the ocean. The very purpose of human birth is to experience the world, get the knowledge and grow spiritually.

Is material life totally wrong then? No, not at all. Until you have the three basic necessities of life (bread, clothes and house) fulfilled for you and your family members who are dependent on you. These three basic necessities are like potholes in a riverbed. Once they are full, the river must flow through towards the ocean. Dig them deep with your desire and ambition, the river gets stuck and stagnates and only trickles towards the ocean.

Once you have the potholes filled up in your waking life, think about your dream life. Dreams are channels of action for desires that are not fulfilled in waking life. They are great indicators for the scum that has accumulated on the Soul. The way to clean the scum are through thinking, meditating and praying--in other words, increasing the amount of Wisdom.

If you had noticed, the Will and Activity are closely coupled. Wisdom always lurks behind the scenes. The Will is the freest of the three, hence the faculty of Freewill, which is the desire towards anything. Activity follows Freewill but is far restricted than the Freewill. But Activity flows through three channels: Mano, VAkku, KAyam (mind, word and deed). The right admixure of Wisdom with Will and Activity creates situations that help spiritual growth.

How are three channels of Will-Wisdom-Activity connected to Brahman, the One God? Since the human Atma is essentially Brahman, they always stay connected. Right combinations of them reveal the underlying, self-luminous Brahman and help us realize our Self. Improper or inadequate combinations create layers of scum over the underlying Brahman and cloud its self-luminosity.

Just like the human consciousness, Brahman's Cosmic Consciousness manifests in three channels: IcchA Shakti or Will, JnAna Shakti or Wisdom and KriyA Shakti or Activity. These three Shaktis are represented by the Trinity Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma in Hinduism, and Father-Son-Holy Spirit in Christianity. Since the entire Trinity (not just the Holy Spirit) is always with us, we can set up our own ways to seek their help and guidance: through service, prayer or meditation--practically a combination of the three (to be on the safe side!).

vcindiana
11 August 2007, 11:07 PM
Hari OM
~~~~~


Namaste vcindiana,
............................again brought back. ONe does not know if the answer met the need, or if the next ball will be in the air, on the ground, etc. There is no mutual exchange of benefit, its all one way.

May I suggest and offer you to play tennis at HDF...

thank you,

OK, you want to play a ball game here. In the game each player 's strong motivation is to win only and to see the opponent beaten. I guess it is clear that you have positioned yourself as all knowing Guru and it is only your opinion that will be counted. As you mentioned here, there is no mutual exchange of benefit, it is all the matter of who has the supreme knowledge of whatever the sacred books say. Is that your 'conscious ' thinking?

sarabhanga
11 August 2007, 11:49 PM
Dear VC,

Most children would understand that playing a game does not require both a winner and a loser. All players can be winners if there is good will and a spirit of cooperation. Constructive discussion is not the same thing as an argument merely for the sake of winning against perceived opposition.

yajvan
12 August 2007, 09:22 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

OK, you want to play a ball game here. In the game each player 's strong motivation is to win only and to see the opponent beaten. I guess it is clear that you have positioned yourself as all knowing Guru and it is only your opinion that will be counted. As you mentioned here, there is no mutual exchange of benefit, it is all the matter of who has the supreme knowledge of whatever the sacred books say. Is that your 'conscious ' thinking?

Namate vcindiana,

Sarabhanga speaks wisely... the notion given was that of an example, a metaphor, simple as that. Please do not read any more into it then needed. Perhaps you overlooked the veribage 'sharing of ideas and a mutual respect for ones knowledge or ideas'. Why do you think this was offered? So that you are seen as equal - that you have something of value too, and it is not one way. that is the wisdom here.

I am not your guru nor anyone elses. HDF Is a place of sharing, that is the offer.

That said, many of the Upanishads speak in metaphors , parables and the like. I will leave it at that and not engage in any more conversations on this matter.

As I have mentioned previously - this time of the month is not auspiciuous and this exchange shows once again the wise are correct about this tithi.

May God bless and you , and you achive all you your are willing to expend effort on. I leave it to your good naure to find your way on this matter.


dhanyaavad,

vcindiana
13 August 2007, 06:36 AM
Namaste everyone.

Now that we are at it, what are your opinions about Conscience vis-à-vis Consciousness? Conscience is the mana shAksi, the witness born by the mind to our activities. I remember to have read an advice by Kanchi Paramacharya that the mind should only remain a witness and not try to judge, hence the term mana shAksi.

Since the mind itself comprises manas, chit and ahamkAra, where does this conscience fit in? When we do something wrong, the conscience pricks us. Morally upright and wise people are called the conscience keepers.

Please let me have your opinions about this faculty of conscience and its connection to consciousness.

I am not a learned people like you. But let me state my understanding of consciousness and conscience.
Consciousness is the basic thing we humans are gifted unlike animals. As all of you know it is a matter of self awareness. The fact that most of us are basically shy because of this awareness. But it also makes us to look at and feel the good and evil in our world. Consciousness is not a natural thing. Some do not want to face the difficulty and they would rather take alcohol or drugs to forget the world. Being conscious makes us to think what is good and what is bad and there is continuous growth.
Conscience is a further step in being conscious and makes to act, or do right thing.
Using public toilet is a great example. We are conscious when we use it. But many public toilets are awful, we just want to relieve ourselves as quickly as possible and get out not paying attention to the trash or mess we created. Do we really think soon after we use the toilet that there will be another person just like us using it? Many times toilets do not get flushed well. Men do not put the seat down after they use. Men tend to dribble out of the toilet and forget to wipe away their droplets over the commode. After they use the sink they do not wipe it clean and dry. Used paper towels are not put in the trash properly. These are just some examples people do all the time even though they may be conscious about these. Being conscience makes the person to act; he or she will make sure the toilet is clean after it is used. It is a simple act but it pleases God.

atanu
13 August 2007, 09:43 AM
----Consciousness is the basic thing we humans are gifted unlike animals. ------Consciousness is not a natural thing. Some do not want to face the difficulty and they would rather take alcohol or drugs to forget the world. Being conscious makes us to think what is good and what is bad and there is continuous growth.

Conscience is a further step in being conscious and makes to act, or do right thing.

Using public toilet is a great example. ------

Namaskar VC,

About conscience what you say, exemplified with public toilet example is OK. In respect of consciousness, I quote a part of definitions that you had cited earlier.


Consciousness according to dictionary.com:1.the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, -------

Do you mean to say that being aware of oneself existing is not natural? It is the most natural thing. Animals also do have consciousness.

As per our scriptures, there is no place where consciousness is not there, since it its absence that place would be unknown. If you are a devotee of Jesus or Krishna or Shiva, that also is in consciousness. To summarise, the very intelligence that is helping you here to debate and discuss, weigh pros and cons, is the God we are talking about. Think about it and you will find that it had to be there before anything else. Otherwise, if anything that had existed before this consciousness would have been non-intelligent. And this brings us to materialism.

Hope it helps.

Om

sarabhanga
13 August 2007, 05:15 PM
Men do not put the seat down after they use.

Those who would prefer the toilet-seat up have to lift it by themselves when some “inconsiderate” person has left it down (and vice versa). In a public toilet, how can the decision be a matter of conscience? Since it is “men” who leave the seat up, who is being offended when the seat is left up in a public toilet? Do other males really care either way? Why does a professional janitor care whether anyone leaves the seat up or down in a public toilet? And why would God be “pleased” or “displeased” either way?

Znanna
13 August 2007, 07:09 PM
Those who would prefer the toilet-seat up have to lift it by themselves when some “inconsiderate” person has left it down (and vice versa). In a public toilet, how can the decision be a matter of conscience? Since it is “men” who leave the seat up, who is being offended when the seat is left up in a public toilet? Do other males really care either way? Why does a professional janitor care whether anyone leaves the seat up or down in a public toilet? And why would God be “pleased” or “displeased” either way?


LOL

Realizing the divine in what might be considered profane is perhaps a condition of consciousness?




Namaste,
ZN

Nuno Matos
13 August 2007, 08:17 PM
Namaste ZN

And a Key to a Divine Life I would like to add !

vcindiana
13 August 2007, 08:23 PM
Atanu: About conscience what you say, exemplified with public toilet example is OK. In respect of consciousness, I quote a part of definitions that you had cited earlier..........
Om[/quote]


I am sorry; I hurt your feelings by writing about Toilets when discussing "consciousness". Is consciousness only divine or holy? Did I pollute God? You don’t think God is in the toilet? I guess "my God :) " watches every person who uses toilets. He wants each person who uses toilet to keep it clean. That does require lot of consciousness and I mean to become sensitive to the happiness or comfort or “Ananda” of next person who uses the toilet. Even Gandhi realized it. He knew this amounts to service to God.

Nuno Matos
13 August 2007, 08:35 PM
Namaste VC


"He wants each person who uses toilet to keep it clean. That does require lot of consciousness and I mean to become sensitive to the happiness or comfort or “Ananda” of next person who uses the toilet. Even Gandhi realized it. He knew this amounts to service to God."


I do agree with you VC. But I would like to add the fact that pollution is one of the reasons the existence of life on earth. If it wasn't pollution in the first place we will never had an atmosphere to make nature grow.

vcindiana
13 August 2007, 08:44 PM
Namaskar VC,

Do you mean to say that being aware of oneself existing is not natural? It is the most natural thing. Animals also do have consciousness.

Hope it helps.

Om

Yes, I look at nature is something which has no mind or consciousness. Storms, flood, fire etc are merciless, these things kill people. Animals do have some awareness but can never come close to human beings.
You people are absolutely right God wants us to be conscious ,not just like some animals, but to keeping growing, evolving and transforming in the beauty of consciousness. I guess He wants us to become supernatural. With our minds set in "Conscience" which is an evolving consciousness can you imagine this world becoming so sensitive to our next person needs .

saidevo
13 August 2007, 09:20 PM
Namaste vcindiana.

1. The modesty, consciousness and professionalism with which you go about your daily work for a living is good enough for spiritual progress. But then you need to apply your will to think beyond your work to place yourself on the spiritual path (if you are not already on it).

I think your public toilet example is a good enough distinction to have an idea of the concepts of consciousness and conscience: yes, men are conscious (awake) when they have the urge to use the toilet, yet they don't listen to their inner voice of conscience to do a tidy job of relieving themselves, with due consideration for others. That due consideration is what conscience expects of men in this case, but most are indifferent to its voice. Your idea that using our conscience to do right things would please God is also fine, because that takes into account a personal God. So long as we have a personal God, we need to avoid doing things that would not please him.

In the South Indian Saiva Siddhanta (philosophy), the very word 'feces' is used for the three features that hide and prevent an Atma from realizing its true nature. These are the ego feces, karma feces and maya feces. When Lord Shiva is sincerely worshipped, he will remove these feces and raise the Atma from the condition of wallowing in them.

2. 'Consciousness is the basic thing we humans are gifted unlike animals.'

This is not correct. Animals, why even an atom of matter has consciousness. In the animal kingdom consciousness flows as instict.

3. 'As all of you know it is a matter of self awareness. The fact that most of us are basically shy because of this awareness. But it also makes us to look at and feel the good and evil in our world.'

Why should most of us be shy of 'this awareness'? If you mean that most of us are shy of doing the right thing though we are aware of it, because of circumstances and other factors, you are right. And yes, it is consciousness, specifically the wisdom or knowledge aspect of it, whose voice is conscience, that 'makes us to look at and feel the good and evil in our world.'

4. 'Consciousness is not a natural thing. Some do not want to face the difficulty and they would rather take alcohol or drugs to forget the world.'

Perhaps you are confused between the terms 'being conscious' and 'consciousness'. Being conscious is being awake, sticking to the wakeful state, whereas there is consciousness in all the three states of human life: wakefulness, dream-sleep, deep sleep. Getting drunk might make a person temporarily forget and tide over a difficulty, and the person may be 'unconscious' to the reality around him/her, but it is not that he/she has lost consciousness.

5. 'Being conscious makes us to think what is good and what is bad and there is continuous growth.'

You are right here. And for what is good and bad there may be varying opinions. Generally the consideration should be what is good and bad for the soul.

sarabhanga
13 August 2007, 09:49 PM
Throughout Asia, “squat toilets” are the norm, and the vast majority of India’s 900 million Hindus would prefer a squatting position (both for better evacuation and simply out of habit, but also to avoid directly touching the “unclean” toilet). And so, to avoid leaving dirty shoe-prints on the toilet seat, most considerate “squatters” (when forced by circumstance to use a western-style “throne”) will lift the seat before balancing carefully on the rim.

From what you have said, it would seem that “your God” (just like a western-style lavatory) has some decidedly “western Christian” cultural preoccupations and preferences.



I hurt your feelings by writing about Toilets when discussing "consciousness". Is consciousness only divine or holy? Did I pollute God? You don’t think God is in the toilet?

I can see no sign of “hurt feelings” in Atanu’s post, but I do suppose that degrading and/or derailing this discussion of Consciousness was your intention.

atanu
14 August 2007, 11:45 AM
Atanu: About conscience what you say, exemplified with public toilet example is OK. In respect of consciousness, I quote a part of definitions that you had cited earlier..........
Om

--------------------------------------
I am sorry; I hurt your feelings by writing about Toilets when discussing "consciousness". Is consciousness only divine or holy? Did I pollute God? You don’t think God is in the toilet? I guess "my God :) " watches every person who uses toilets. He wants each person who uses toilet to keep it clean. That does require lot of consciousness and I mean to become sensitive to the happiness or comfort or “Ananda” of next person who uses the toilet. Even Gandhi realized it. He knew this amounts to service to God.

Namaste,

Shri Sarabhanga has correctly noted that I am not hurt. He has also noted inappropriateness of your example.

You have avoided the pertinent point of my above post: "---if anything that had existed before this consciousness would have been non-intelligent. And this brings us to materialism-----"

Then I asked you "Do you mean to say that being aware of oneself existing is not natural?". You have completely bypassed the question and replied as below:


Yes, I look at nature is something which has no mind or consciousness. Storms, flood, fire etc are merciless, these things kill people. Animals do have some awareness but can never come close to human beings.


We may talk about nature and animals later. If you wish you may answer the above two questions first.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
14 August 2007, 12:00 PM
Namaste vcindiana.

I think your public toilet example is a good enough distinction to have an idea of the concepts of consciousness and conscience: yes, men are conscious (awake) when they have the urge to use the toilet, yet they don't listen to their inner voice of conscience to do a tidy job of relieving themselves, with due consideration for others. That due consideration is what conscience expects of men in this case, but most are indifferent to its voice. Your idea that using our conscience to do right things would please God is also fine, because that takes into account a personal God. So long as we have a personal God, we need to avoid doing things that would not please him.



You bring another example about men easing themselves wherever they want. It is a very common in India, (even here I have seen especially on the golf courses) Your quote: "they do not listen to inner voice of conscience" That is exactly the point. Animals do not have conscience which is a higher level in consciousness. Natural instincts dictate their life. Human beings are supposed to be more conscious as per God. Becoming more conscious is not natural, at least what I perceive.

vcindiana
14 August 2007, 12:52 PM
To the Editor: I noticed that you moved my posts into canteen Where I can write my trashy things as defined by your Conscious mind. Sorry God is too big to hold in our pockets. Let your Conscience be the guide. Thank you

satay
14 August 2007, 01:17 PM
Admin Note
namaskar vcindiana,

Your example of 'toilets' is completely inappropriate for discussion on HDF. Perhaps you are used to other toilet like forums on the net? I couldn't say this for sure. In order to keep the other discussion thread on topic, I moved all the toilet related posts to the canteen section so that the toilet talk when finished can be removed easily from HDF.

Please note that trolling threads and discussions is against the rules of HDF.
End Admin Note


Human beings are supposed to be more conscious as per God.

Which God?

satay
14 August 2007, 01:34 PM
To the Editor: I noticed that you moved my posts into canteen Where I can write my trashy things as defined by your Conscious mind. Sorry God is too big to hold in our pockets. Let your Conscience be the guide. Thank you

namaskar vcindiana,

Administrators and moderators are somewhat like janitors, if you will. In order to keep the other discussion clean I am allowing all toilet trash talk to continue here because it will be easier for me to clean later.

I hope that as a fellow janitor you understand the logic I am following here...

Thank you in advance for helping me keep our toilets clean.

atanu
14 August 2007, 01:53 PM
-----You people are absolutely right God wants us to be conscious ,not just like some animals, but to keeping growing, evolving and transforming in the beauty of consciousness. I guess He wants us to become supernatural. With our minds set in "Conscience" which is an evolving consciousness can you imagine this world becoming so sensitive to our next person needs .


VC

It would be good enough if one knew one's needs.

Best Wishes.

atanu
14 August 2007, 02:55 PM
-----men easing themselves wherever they want. It is a very common in India, ------"they do not listen to inner voice of conscience" That is exactly the point. Animals do not have conscience which is a higher level in consciousness. Natural instincts dictate their life. --------.

VC,

What do you and I know of animals? Animals do not have guile also. From your above note, I however, feel that you are perhaps correct, with a slight twist; Those who do not have conscience are animals.

VC, conscience is not so cheap a thing. And 'Pasu' (animal) mentioned in Saiva Sidhanta is not four legged.

OM

willie
14 August 2007, 09:42 PM
Being aware of oneself in not a natural thing at all. Being mainly cofinded to higher brain function and the frontal area. Emotional development is the key to real higher brain function. So befor the development of that brain function there was non intelligence.

atanu
14 August 2007, 10:03 PM
Being aware of oneself in not a natural thing at all.


Then please be unnatural.

Yes, its extraordinarily extraordinary that an inert mass of flesh is aware. And that is why consciousness is NATURE of Brahman and it is Brahman. Nothing predates it.

It is extraordinarily extraordinary, how a lump of flesh is considered conscious, again and again. Only tape recorders have this capability of repeating again and again the same dialogue, without allowing the thought process to alter the message.



So befor the development of that brain function there was non intelligence.


First, how do you know? You seem to be omniscient. This does not seem a statement from a rational person. So, intelligence was born of non-intelligence. So, a lump of brain (or a lump representing brain function) was there before consciousness and that inert matter, somehow is enhancing its intelligence day by day?

Let's check out a dead body and ask Willie, the scientist to inspect the hormones and chemicals and the electical impulses. A dead body does not say "I". A body is inert. Brain is inert. The false association between inert body and intelligence that non-thinking make is called EGO (IGNORANCE). I imagine when the life forces leave Willie, his brain will shout out "do not bury me, I am intelligent; I want to live".


A person drinks water and knows himself whether it is cold or warm.

Om

vcindiana
15 August 2007, 05:12 PM
namaskar vcindiana,

Administrators and moderators are somewhat like janitors, if you will. In order to keep the other discussion clean I am allowing all toilet trash talk to continue here because it will be easier for me to clean later.

I hope that as a fellow janitor you understand the logic I am following here...

Thank you in advance for helping me keep our toilets clean.



When did your forum turn in to toilet ?http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

vcindiana
15 August 2007, 05:17 PM
VC

It would be good enough if one knew one's needs.

Best Wishes.



you mean you donot care about your neighbor?

willie
15 August 2007, 09:37 PM
When the brain is inert the person is dead, well brain dead , at least. There may be functions going on in other parts of the body and even if resperation stops it could take a few hours for all the cells the die off.

Emotions are the higher level functions of the brain and that is some measure of the organisms developmental stage. Most higher primates, like gorillas , chimps and orangs have a pertty well developed emotional part of the brain. The is a female gorilla that can use sign language to talk to the keeps and has learned about 75 signs.

The dna of a body can survive for centuries , and was recently use. A king of the phonecians, that had been dead for over 2000 years was found to have some viable dna in the teeth. So dna tests were run on it and then run on people on the street. They found that about one third of the population has phonecian dna.

Put a mirror in front of a dog or cat, most want to fight it. Elephants figure out pertty quickly that it is an image of them.

satay
15 August 2007, 10:49 PM
When did your forum turn in to toilet ?http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I thought if I talk of it in 'toilet' terms that you might comprehend my logic, dear janitor friend. Just customizing the message to fit your toilet taste...;)

By the way in this post here http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=13436&postcount=43 you implied that you are a medical professional now on this thread you are claiming to be a janitor...in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter what you are. In my experience the so called scholars can't comprehend the simple act of bowing in front of a murthi of hanuman...it confuses the heck out them...now lets see if janitors are able to comprehend it or not...especially when the message is customized to their toilet taste.

:cool1:

atanu
16 August 2007, 04:21 AM
When the brain is inert the person is dead, well brain dead , at least. There may be functions going on in other parts of the body and even if resperation stops it could take a few hours for all the cells the die off.

Emotions are the higher level functions of the brain and that is some measure of the organisms developmental stage. Most higher primates, like gorillas , chimps and orangs have a pertty well developed emotional part of the brain. The is a female gorilla that can use sign language to talk to the keeps and has learned about 75 signs.

The dna of a body can survive for centuries , and was recently use. A king of the phonecians, that had been dead for over 2000 years was found to have some viable dna in the teeth. So dna tests were run on it and then run on people on the street. They found that about one third of the population has phonecian dna.

Put a mirror in front of a dog or cat, most want to fight it. Elephants figure out pertty quickly that it is an image of them.


Nothing new. Whether a cat fights its image or elephant recognizes image as image, there is cognition and reaction. The essence of the cognition is Brahman. Notions are all superimpositions.



So, ias per you, you stick to "intelligence was born of non-intelligence. So, a lump of brain (or a lump representing brain function) was there before consciousness and that inert matter, somehow is enhancing its intelligence day by day"


A person drinks water and knows himself whether it is cold or warm. Who is that person? Is it the DNA then?


Om

atanu
16 August 2007, 04:40 AM
you mean you donot care about your neighbor?

Dear VC,

I care more than you think you do.

At least I do not act like a sieve which said to a needle "You have a hole in your back". I do not find fault in Jesus's teachings like you point out defects in murti worship or toilet habits of others.

Secondly, and more fundamentally, the neibhour is in my consciousness. The neibhour is not different. The Cartesian division between ME and Universe, is not acceptable to some of us, at least. And thus pointing out shortcoming elsewhere is not natural. However, if I engage in discussion, it is done for self understanding. It is to iron out the bumps in consciousness that our scripture says 'admits of no division'. Loving neibhour more than oneself is also towards that end. But the attitude that the practices of other's are only non-OK and I'm always OK, is not OK.


Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
16 August 2007, 07:27 AM
I thought if I talk of it in 'toilet' terms that you might comprehend my logic, dear janitor friend. Just customizing the message to fit your toilet taste...;)

By the way in this post here http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=13436&postcount=43 you implied that you are a medical professional now on this thread you are claiming to be a janitor...in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter what you are. In my experience the so called scholars can't comprehend the simple act of bowing in front of a murthi of hanuman...it confuses the heck out them...now lets see if janitors are able to comprehend it or not...especially when the message is customized to their toilet taste.

:cool1:
Thank you for your effort in Customizing the message.
I am in a medical profession and also work as a volunteer janitor in a public place. There is nothing to hide in my life. I never claimed to be a scholar. I never meant to offend or demean personally any of you but I do question about the religious practices, customs, rituals etc. I do understand that people become defensive when their basic beliefs are questioned.
I do.not understand the fear among these religious people, the very people who believe so strongly about their powerful God. Not too long ago Muslim people made a big deal about Mohamed’s cartoons & they went bezerk.
You write that in your experience the so called scholars cannot comprehend the simple act of act of bowing in front of a murthy …….it confuses the heck out of them….
You are absolutely right, in that confusion and doubts I search for clarification and with that search comes a great deal of learning. For me, old ideas do die and new and better ideas do take place and nothing can be absolute.
My intention of mentioning toilet use is something practical which I am used to see and I am sorry you people found it trashy, not H0LY!
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saidevo
16 August 2007, 09:52 AM
vcindiana,

Let us be done with the toilet talk. Come up with something from your medical professional experiences that might relate to spirituality and its practice. You would rather understand that age-old religious practices, beliefs and customs are part of every religion and they add color and variety to spirituality. It is not prudent to question them because they are as real to the practioners as they seem illogical or irrational ao a person of different faith or a non-believer.

yajvan
16 August 2007, 04:12 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

vcindiana,

Let us be done with the toilet talk.

bravo...

Znanna
16 August 2007, 07:46 PM
Namaste,

I think that Holy is imbibed in all actions, and to see a sacred referent in what most would consider "dirty" is to extend beyond judgement in a relativistic manner is a balanced thought... and thus a good thing.


ZN
/picks up paper towels

atanu
16 August 2007, 08:07 PM
The truth is holy and it is beyond stink and fragrance. Yet we light fragrance.

Gandhi Ji used to sit in his toilet seat with Gita. Kabir used to continue his japa in toilet. Once he was criticized and was forced to stop. It is said that he started excreting god's name.

Yet I light fragrance since I like fragrance. When I go beyond pain and pleasure and heat and cold, I may be like Kabir.

Om Namah Shivaya

PS. Cleaning toilets is indeed a service. But there was no need to highlight the good habit in oneself and bad habit of others, in a post discussing consciousness. That was the point.


Sorry Saidevo ji. Let us follow your suggestion.

saidevo
16 August 2007, 08:49 PM
Namaste Atanu, Yajvan, ZN, VCI and others.

Seems we might have more of 'useful' talk relating God to the toilet environment.

1. There is no disputing the point that God is everywhere, and in everything. For that matter, as Atanu has rightly pointed out, we burn only fragrance in front of our God images. Nor do we stick God's portraits in a toilet. (Recently, some companies in the US manufactured toilet bowls with portraits of Hindu gods on the toilet seat covers, showing utter insensitivity, perversity and arrogance: they did not include Jesus among the selected God portraits).

2. Kabir and Gandhi might have chanted/read God's names/verses sitting on the toilet. It only means that God's name was on their lips all the time of the day and in all their activities. And surely, they would not have highlighted this as a feat in their biography/autobiography! Only others view it as strange or take exception to it.

3. Know something? There have been reports from the disciples of some gurus that when their gurus passed excreta, it never stank! There is this possibility because of the completely satvic food they consumed. When we become one such, perhaps we might even choose to have a choir or bhajan in the toilet!

4. People might have surely heard of the 'great atheist of Tamilnadu', EV Ramasamy (called 'Periyar', 'great man' by his coterie). If MF Hussain is famous by his perversion of casting Hindu gods into the nude and the vulgur, this man was famous for publishing the seemingly obscene tales in Hindu puranas with a touch of his own perversely crooked comments and explanations. When he was told that a Hindu wears the holy ash because it is a symbol that reminds us of the ultimate destruction of all things, he asked, "Why not keep a bit of excreta on the banana leaf plate in a corner to remind that the ultimate state of food is that?"

5. VCI initially gave the impression that he was a full time janitor with very little exposure to spirituality, so I thought it was natural that he tried to explain things using the imagery around his work spot. Now that he has revealed that he is in the medical profession with toilet-cleaning as a voluntary service, I thought that any more talk from him about the toilet environment would only tend to be perverse, as enought has already been said by him.

Personally I don't mind such things as toilets used in discussions about spiritual progress, but it sure does look and feel gross to eulogize the habitats of the night soil!

yajvan
16 August 2007, 10:13 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

As my teacher has said when one looks at a rose why put your attention on the thorns? If we have a choice, why would we not want to focus on the rose?


It's just more pleasing...

pranams,

vcindiana
17 August 2007, 08:48 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

As my teacher has said when one looks at a rose why put your attention on the thorns? If we have a choice, why would we not want to focus on the rose?


It's just more pleasing...

pranams,

How beautiful you said this? Thank you.

Hope you people understood my small way of explaining consciousness and conscience using the way people tend to use toilet. It was never my idea to focus on toilet (Subject of Thorn?) but it was my observation of the careless and insensitive way people (not all) use the toilet. I feel people would become more conscious and let their conscience dictate as God would like to see in us. Having said that, I need to state that I am not an exception, I am a human being and there are occasions I do slip into the level of lower consciousness. But with God I get constantly reminded that I need to get back to the track.

satay
17 August 2007, 10:52 AM
namaste vcindiana,


I never meant to offend or demean personally any of you but I do question about the religious practices, customs, rituals etc.

I doubt that anyone here is offended by your toilet talk, I know that I am not. I only moved your posts here to keep the other discussion 'clean' as trolling is against the rules of the site.

I, however, feel that somehow the great sanatana dharma has offended you somehow deeply, or perhaps it was someone practicing dharma albeit not in maturity (?), or perhaps your orthodox family somehow did something to offend you so greatly that your wound is still fresh and you feel this urge to question the rituals, practices and the way of Hindus.

I couldn't say all this for sure though since I am not a medical professional, nor a scholar. Only making an observation that you were somehow wounded badly and you are questions are a cry for help.

Also, it is my observation that those who somehow get offended by the Truth of dharma and join the adharmic camp always have this need to shout the loudest and insult dharma and its adherents. Just an observation...

Madhavan
19 August 2007, 03:54 AM
vcind - If nothing else the toilet talk gave me a smile today. :)