PDA

View Full Version : The 5th Veda - Mahabharata



yajvan
21 August 2007, 08:48 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I have been blessed to start the complete 18 parvas (divisions) of the Mahabharata of Veda Vyasa [ Krsna-Dwaipayna]. It is said Vyasa's work took 3 years to complete, as a daily area of work for him. I thought from time to time we on HDF could discuss this great work & get to the meaning behind the words whenever possible.

I have read the abridged version by C.Rajagopalcachari. I am now delighted to read Kisar Mohan Ganguli's complete translation. His translation project took 13 years (1883 to 1896) to complete; Before submitting the translation to print Ganguli-ji reviewed each sloka for accuracy.

As with most great works many slokas were exceedingly difficult to construe in Sanskrit let alone convert to English, yet Ganguli-ji looked to others to insure the best renderings and comprehension on this matter.
I would suggest posting a few ideas from this 5th veda will be rewarding as only good can come of this within a reasonable group of people on HDF. Please feel free to post your thoughts on this, and on parts that you have perhaps read that have merit for others to consider.

I thought the first place to start was the lineage of this word भरत bharata . I ask sarabhanga to please add his thoughts on the etymology as he sees fit and correct me as needed, as I am not the final authority, yet only delight in the opportunity to offer some of this noble work to those that wish to read on.
भरत bharata
भारत bhārata
भार bhāra
bhArata =descended from Bharata or the Bharatas
Bharata =to be or being maintained ; an actor , dancer , tumbler ;
Bharata = son of King Dushyanta [ Dushmanta ] and Sakuntala - named as the cherished one, the supported
Bharatha - a world-protector
bhAratasattama - the best of the descendants of Bharata


From The Mahabharata, Adi Parva, Sub Section Sambhava Parva, stitched together to tell the story.

Its very interesting to consider the lineage of this child Bharata. His mother Sakuntala, was the child of great muni Viswamitra (friend of the universe) and Menaka, an apsara [अप्सरस्celestial nymph], was sent by Indra himself to entice Viswamitra to lose his focus during his tapas;
Indra was intimidated by Viswamitra's intensity as he was gaining increase merit; Indra thought he himself would lose his seat to Viswamitra, so he sent Menaka to flirt and 'sport' with him to throw him off balance, thus pulling him of his tapas and break-up the strength being gained.

Menaka was successful , and from their union a child was born. Yet Menaka left this daughter of hers along the banks of the river Malini, and departed. This child alone was protected by the vultures in the area, from harm (lions and tigers, rakshasa). This baby was found by the rishi Kanwa, of the kasyapa lineage (gotra).

Due to finding the child unharmed and protected by the vultures, she was named Sakuntala [शकुन्तला]or bird protected [ from sakuntas or birds, and the root शकुनि śakuni or large bird]. Sakuntala was then raised by the muni in the forest with other rishi-s in a very Divine place.

A King one day entered this forest and noticed its vibrancy, filled with flowers, saman hymns being chanted, brahmanas all around, chanting, japa, homam , etc. a very sacred retreat. This king was Dushamana, a descendent of Puru*, and he wanted to meet the rishi kanwa. At that time he was not at his residence, yet his daughter, Sakuntala, met him and honored him as a guest and as a monarch.

The King was quite inquisitive as to how this great muni kanwa of high esthetic ranks and therefore a brahmacharin would have a child and break his celibacy. He asked Sakuntala, and she told the King the whole story of her past [Viswamitra + Menaka episode] and finally to the home of her father.

The King, listening, became enchanted with Sakuntala, asked her [ after she completed the story] if she would be his wife. She suggested that he wait for Kanwa to return so it can be done properly, yet the King was adamant about this and convinced her to take his hand in marriage. Sakuntala said, under one condition: The King promise that when a son is born from this marriage that he would be the heir to the thrown. The King agreed, and in fact the marriage was consummated at that time.

The King said he was now returning to his capitol, and in time would send for Sakuntala; That 'call' did not happen. Sakuntala gave birth to a boy with great virtue & strength. The rishi Kanwa's dwellers at his ashram seeing strength of this boy and his abilities called him Sarvadamana or the subduer of all. Rishi Kanwa said the time has come to go to the capitol, visit the King and for the boys installation of heir-apparent.

When Sakuntala arrived at the palace and gained audience with the King, she said 'This is thy son O King! Let him be installed as the heir apparent'. The King said, I do not recall this... and who are you, this wicked woman in ascetic clothing? I do not remember having any connection with you , so go or stay or do as you please.

Well , Sakuntala was aghast at this. Her anger rose as her eyes turned to copper and her lips quivered. for the next 2 1/2 pages Sakuntala states her argument to the King, and is very caustic to him to say the least. Yet the King continues to say I do not recall what you say and women generally speak untruths. He also goes out of his way to find fault with her mother Menaka.

Sakuntala finishes her rational yet passionate speech, then left his presence. Upon that happening a voice came from the sky and said the following to the king, as his priests and ministers too were gathered: 'The mother is but a sheath of flesh, the son spring from the father is the father himself. Therefore Dushmana cherish thy son and insult not Sakuntala. You are the progenitor of this boy and Sakuntala has spoken the truth. Because this child is to be cherished by you let him be known as Bharata, the cherished.'

As you would expect this puts a different spin on the existing condition, yes? Yet the King's logic is interesting. He said I knew all along this boy was my son. If I would have taken this son on Sakuntala's words alone, unknown to the people in my kingdom, they would have been suspicious of this event and would have seen Sarvadamana as impure. Yet having the celestial messenger arrive, he established the purity of the boy.

To this, the King then welcomed Bharata with open arms, and had pacifying words for Sakuntala. He explained his concern of having his affair privately with her back when he first met her and had concerns of his people. That is, the kingdom may have supposed their union was only lustfully driven and would make , in the eyes of the kingdom an impure birth, thus affecting his heir-apparent rule on the throne. The King then formally installed Bharata as the heir.

Bharata came to be known as Sarvadamana or the subduer of all & Cakravarti i.e. a ruler of whose chariot wheels roll everywhere without obstruction; emperor, sovereign of the world.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* Puru descendent was Ilina . He married Rathantra had 5 sons - Dushmanta, Sura, Bhima, Pravasu and Vasu. Dusamantra was the eldest and became King. Ilina's father was Tansu; His father was Matinara; His father Anadhristi , his original name was Richeyu and in his day was the sole monarch of the earth; His father, Kaudraswa, wed an apsara named Misrakesi, and had 10 sons, Richeyu was 1 of the 10. This continues backwards until we arrive at Puru and his wife Paushti, that starts the family line. The Puru line can then be tracked back to the monarch Yayati a key ancestor, 10th from Prajapati:

King Yayati had 1 wife and another, concubine. Yayati married the daughter of Sukra ( Venus) the Brahmana of the Asuras and had children Yadu and Turvasu. Yayati also had children with Sarmishtha, the daughter of the Asura King Vrishaparvan. This encounter produced Druhyu, Anu and Puru. Due to Yaytai's mischief ( even though he was enticed by Sarmishtha , as she wanted children but had no husband), Sukra inflicted a curse on Yayata and the King lost his youth. Yayati asked all 5 children if he could trade his old age for their youth and the only one that agreed as Puru. After 1000 years, Yayati returned the youth to Puru and gave him his kingdom, the youngest of all the brothers.

So if one tracks back from Yayati, he is 10th removed from Daksha, the originator.
[ Daksha -> Aditi->Vivaswat->Manu->Ili->Puruavas->Ayus->Nahusha->Yayati->Puru ]

Aditi was wife of Kasyapa, and Kasyaspa was son of Marichi. Marichi was the one of 6 spiritual sons of Brahma. With Kashyap this group is referred to as saptrishi's or saptarşi , the 7 rishi's. I Have seen different lists of the 7. Most all agree on the 6 named as Angiras, Pulastya, Kratu, Marichi, Atri, Pulahu. Yet at times I see Vasisthta or Kashapa added to make the 7. This is the connection all the way back to the origin of creation.

praṇām

yajvan
22 August 2007, 09:14 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

As we continue looking at the lineage of the personages in the Mahabharata, I thought the next person to consider is Bishma. We will look at others yet our next stop is the great bishma, as he plays a major strategic role in the Mahabharata.

भीष्मbhīṣma terrible, effrayant , fearful
Bishma's (beesh-mah) other names are Devavrata, Gangadatta and Dyu.
He is one of the 8 Vasus, the celestials. How did he come to this earth and what was the circumstances?

The 8 vasus* were wandering in the woods with their wives. They came upon a cow. This cow was the off-spring of Kashyapa and Surabhi ( the daughter of the great Daksha). Its name was Nandini ( We know her as Nandi). His is the cow of plenty with the ability of granting ones desires. The wife if Dyu said lets give this cow to an earth fiend of mine and by drinking Nandi's milk will not have to ever suffer disease and old age.m Dyu also said that this cow was in owned by a great rishi, yet Dyu wanted to please his wife.
The owner of this cow is the rishi Vasishtha* ( वासिष्ठ vāsiṣṭha) and also known as rishi Apava. Upon his return to his hermitage he noted Nandi was missing and applying his 'vision' seen the offenders - the vasus. He was instantly beside himself and cursed them then to be born on earth.

Once the vasus became aware of this, they came to Vasishtha-ji post haste. The vasus tried to pacify the rishi yet he would have none of it. He did though say, you will be all free of my curse less Dyu within one year after your birth's on earth. For Dyu he must stay longer. He will be virtuous and knowledgeable of the scriptures and an obedient son. Yet he will not have female companionship or children. Vasishtha then left.
So now the vasus are thinking , we must be born of this earth. Yet we do not want to be children with any random mother. They approached the Queen of the Rivers, Ganga, and asked while she was on earth, they could be born of her.

Why was Ganga to become human too? To fulfill another curse given to King Santanu while he was a royal sage named Mahabhisha. He was condemned to earth for looking upon Ganga when her garments were blown off and did not cast his eyes away. for this infraction, off to earth he goes, and Ganga is to be reborn there to, to give him infractions, repaying his insolence.

So both Mahabhisha and Ganga are born here on tera-firma [earth]. Santanu is born son of a King (Pratipa) of the Puru line [ see the 1st posting on the Puru race ], and takes the throne in due course. While outhunting he ran across a beautiful woman, and this was Ganga in the flesh. There wasn't much dating I gather in those days, and King Santanu asked her to be his wife. Ganga said, yes, but under these conditions - 'you must not interfere with anything I do , agreeable or disagreeable. And you will not address me unkindly. If this should occur I will certainly leave you'. To this the King agreed.

Both enjoyed each others company. Ganga started having children, the father, Santanu. The couple had 8 children ( as per the vasus agreement with Ganga). Yet each time one as born Ganga would take the babe to the river, throw the new babe in and say 'This is for thy good'. Since they were born on earth, they did not want to stay a minute longer then needed so Ganga did the honors, knowing full well the origin of these babes. The King was beside himself, yet was tied by his agreement to Ganga that he could not act without the liability of losing his lovely wife.
Yet when they got to their 8th child, Santanu could not take it any more and said ' Kill it not!' Why do you kill your own children! Your sins are great!' As you can tell that broke the contract with Ganga. On that note Ganga tells the King who she really is, and the agreement she had with the 8 vasus.

The one child left was named Gangadatta. In the original agreement with Ganga the 8 vasus agreed to each contribute 1/8th of their energies that would remain in the last vasu that remained on earth - this was Dyu who now became Gangadatta. Ganga then left, 'disappeared' and took Gangadatta. He was also given two other names - Devavrata and Gangeya ( short for Gangadatta).

Now we have a sorrowful Santanu without a wife and without Devavrata. Santanu , really being Mahabhisha. a royal sage of the celestials was renown in all the worlds as Santanu. He was wise, spoke the truth ,of the highest virtues . He was the protector of the Bharata race and all human beings...e.g. a bull among men as the Vayasa would say. All the earths kings look to Santanu. During his reign all was good, peaceful, achievements occurred, proper religious acts occurred, all knew their dharma.

On day as Santanu walked along the Ganges he saw a youth checking ( altering the flow) of the river. Santanu did not recognize him as he only seen him for minutes after his birth some years ago. Yet Devavrata new his father in an instant. He chose not to reveal himself and disappeared from sight. The King then addressed the river Ganges as the devi Ganga and said 'show me that child'. Ganga appeared holding the King's son. The King did not recognize Ganga as a devi. She spoke ' This is the 8th son. Know I have raised him with care. He has studied with Vasistha the Vedas and their branches. He has superior intelligence, he is conversant with and skilled with all weapons. Both the deva's and the asuras look upon him favorably - take him home.

Now we have Santanu and his son back together. Four years pass and Santanu is out along the banks of the Yamuna river, he picks up a sweet sent in the air and wants to find out where it's coming from. He follows it, and ends up meeting the daughter of a fisherman - Satyavati ( we will talk fully of her later). As usual Santanu is possessed of her beauty and wants to take her as his wife. He goes to Satyavati's father and asks for his best wishes for this marriage to occur. The father, says if you agree to this condition… So one more time Santanu is has a condition he must meet. That is, the son born of him and Satyavati must be the heir to the throne, no other, no competition.
The king pondered this and knew this would put in jeopardy Devavrata's assent to the throne. The king of wise merit did not make this promise and left, yet thinking of Satyavati's beauty, sweet looks and smell all the time.

While at home Devavrata notes his father's grief and asks what is the issue. Santanu takes Devavrata through his dilemma and sorrow. Devavrata left and pondered this issue and chose on his own to go visit the fisherman and the father of Satyavati. They talk and the key blockage again is having the child born of Satyavati be heir. The father said Satyavati's virtue is worthy of the Kings marriage and comes from a celebrated race. He has rejected many Brahmariashi's looking for Satyavati hand in marriage.

Devavrata then thought of what would be befitting for his father and said to the fisherman, let me remove then any obstacles for the marriage to occur. The son born of Satyavati and Santanu will be king. Devavratta said, 'there is not a man born that will take this vow that I relinquish my right to the throne and adopt the vow of brahmachara' that is, Devavrata says he will not have children let alone a wife.
[ Note that this vow also fulfills the proclimation/curse of Vishista given to Dyu way back in the story].

This ends all questions on the heir apparent that would be born of Santya vati and Santanu. The fisherman bestowed Satyavati to Devatavrata's care. Immediately after flowers came down from the heavens , from the apsaras, the devas and rishis upon the head of Devavratra and these celestials proclaimed ' This one is Bishma [ the terrible]' . And when Bishma delivered Satyavati to his father amongst the kings assembled in Hastinapura, and they heard of his vow, they too proclaimed 'He is really Bishma'.


On that note his father , being really of celestial origin gave to his son death upon his will only saying, 'Death shall never come to thee as long as you have the desire to live'. Death will only approach you, upon your command'.
And so we see how Bishma got his name, his origin and the boon of long life, as long as he wished it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
According to Yâjyavalkya muni the 8 vasus are: Agni (fire), Prithivî (earth), Vâyu (air), Antariksha (sky), Âditya (sun), Dyu (heaven), Kandramas (moon), the Nakshatras (stars)

Courtesy of sarabhanga's previous post in the etymology of the rishis:
vasu means "excellent, good, beneficent, or sweet", particularly indicating "a ray of light".
वासिष्ठ vasiSTha is the superlative of vasu ; vasiSTha is "most excellent, best, or most wealthy", and particularly "the illumination or light".
vasiSTha is "the best of Gods" or "lord of the AdityA", and especially "the lord (or whole body) of eight vasava" or "the master of all 33 devA".


praṇām

yajvan
14 September 2007, 08:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast


I continue my reading and study of this great work. For those that also are reading this or have read this in the past, here is one site that offers the MB's ( Mahabharata ) characters from a leadership point of view. Vyasa's work is so comprehensive it has multiple levels of learning.

All insights are welcomed as I pursue unravelling the personalities of each character and player in the MB. you will find some interesting insights from this authors post.http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/043.htm (http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/043.htm)

I was pleasantly impressed by his insight on Bishma, let alone Draupadi, Kunti and Satyavati. He has captured more of a worldly view, yet it gives good insight.

Any sites or books [definition consortium] that give the symbols to the characters ( Drona, Karna, Bishma, Draupada, Vidura, the King, etc) is greatly welcomed.


Atma jeyah sada rajna tato jeyashca shatravah
Ajitatma narapatirvijayeta katham ripun
“First the raja shall conquer enemies.
He who has not conquered himSELF, how will that raja succeed in conquering enemies?”


praṇām

yajvan
18 September 2007, 08:32 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Vishnuh -The term Vishnu is rooted in the sukta:Veveshti Vyaapnoti iti Vishnuh - That which pervades everywhere is Vishnu

In the Mahabharata. Yudhisthira, the eldest of the Pandavas, apporaches Bishma the grandsire of the Kuru family. He is lying half-slain, on a bed of arrows ( in and through him). As he was gifted by his father with choosing his time of death,
he awaits the proper muhurta to leave this earth.

At this time Yudhisthira approaches him and with the proper permissions asks Bishma 6 questions [ see below]. The answer to the 6 questions manifests the Vishnu Sahasranamam or 1000 names of Visnu, and the proper approach of doing this vrata or sadhana .

This site not only outlines the total Vishnu Sahasranamam, but gives important word meanings. A rare & excellent offer IMHO, for those that wish to get deeper then just the verbiage.
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivkuma/music/vishnu-sahasranamam-meanings.htm (http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivkuma/music/vishnu-sahasranamam-meanings.htm)

6 questions posed

Who is the greatest Lord in the world (lokas or all worlds) ?
Who is the one (ekam) refuge for all?
By glorifying whom can man reach the Auspiciousness (shubam or peace and prosperity)?
By worshipping whom can a man reach Auspiciousness (peace and prosperity)?
What is, in thy opinion, the Greatest Dharma?
By doing japa of what can "creatures" (jantu) go beyond the bonds (bandhanaath) of samsara?Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya

praṇām

yajvan
21 March 2008, 02:40 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I thought perhaps a few of you may enjoy reading how Krsna describes Maheswara. This is from the Anusadana Parva, Section CLXI (or section 161 if my Roman numerals are correct.)
________________________________________________________________
Vasudeva (Krsna) said, 'O mighty-armed Yudhishthira, listen to me as I recite to thee the many names of Rudra as also the high blessedness of that high-souled one.

The Rishis describe Mahadeva as Agni , and Sthanu, and Maheswara; as one-eyed, and three-eyed, of universal form, and Siva or highly auspicious. Brahmanas conversant with the Vedas say that that god has two forms.

· One of these is terrible, and the other mild and auspicious. Those two forms again, are subdivided into many forms.
· That form which is fierce and terrible is regarded as identical with Agni and Lightning and Surya. The other form which is mild and auspicious is identical with Righteousness and water and Chandramas.
· Then, again, it is said that half his body is fire and half is Soma (or the moon). That form of his which is mild and auspicious is said to be engaged in the practice of the Brahmacharya vow. The other form of his which is supremely terrible is engaged in all operations of destruction in the universe.
· Because he is great (Mahat) and the Supreme Lord of all (Iswara), therefore he is called Maheswara. And since he burns and oppresses, is keen and fierce, and endued with great energy, and is engaged in eating flesh and blood and marrow, he is said to be Rudra.
· Since he is the foremost of all the deities, and since his dominion and acquisitions are very extensive, and since he protects the extensive universe, therefore he is called Mahadeva. Since he is of the form or colour of smoke, therefore he is called Dhurjati.
· Since by all his acts he performs sacrifices for all and seeks the good of every creature, therefore he is called Siva or the auspicious one. Staying above (in the sky) he burns the lives of all creatures and is, besides, fixed in a particular route from which he does not deviate.
· His emblem, again, is fixed and immovable for all time. He is, for these reasons, called Sthanu.
· He is also of multiform aspect. He is present, past, and future. He is mobile and immobile. For this he is called Vahurupa (of multiform aspect).
· The deities called Viswedevas reside in his body. He is, for this, called Viswarupa (or universal form). He is thousand-eyed; or, he is myriad-eyed; or, he has eyes on all sides and on every part of his body, His energy issues through his eyes. [We can see from this why rudraksha is of great importance. Also thousand eyes is another way of saying there is no place that He is not ]
· There is no end of his eyes. Since he always nourishes all creatures and sports also with them, and since he is their lord or master, therefore he is called Pasupati (the lord of all creatures).
· Since his emblem is always observant of the vow of Brahmacharya, all the worlds worship it accordingly. This act of worship is said to gratify him highly.
· If there is one who worship him by creating his image, another who worships his emblem, the latter it is that attains to great prosperity for ever. The Rishis, the deities, the Gandharvas, and the Apsaras, worship that emblem of his which is ever erect and upraised [ i.e. siva-lingam ]. If his emblem is worshipped, Maheswara becomes highly gratified with the worshipper.
· Affectionate towards his devotees, he bestows happiness upon them with a cheerful soul. This great god loves to reside in crematoria and there he burns and consumes all corpses. Those persons that perform sacrifices on such grounds attain at the end to those regions which have been set apart for heroes. Employed in his legitimate function, it is he That is regarded as the Death that resides in the bodies of all creatures.
· He is, again, those breaths called Prana and Apana in the bodies of all embodied beings. He has many blazing and terrible forms. All those forms are worshipped in the world and are known to Brahmanas possessed of knowledge. Amongst the gods he has many names all of which are fraught with grave import. Verily, the meanings of those names are derived from either his greatness or vastness, or his feats, or his conduct.
· The Brahmanas always recite the excellent Sata-rudriya in his honour, that occurs in the Vedas as also that which has been composed by Vyasa. Verily, the Brahmanas and Rishis call him the eldest of all beings. He is the first of all the deities, and it was from his mouth that he created Agni. That righteous-souled deity, ever willing to grant protection to all, never gives up his suppliants. He would much rather abandon his own life-breaths and incur all possible afflictions himself.
Long life, health and freedom from disease, affluence, wealth, diverse kinds of pleasures and enjoyments, are conferred by him, and it is he also who snatches them away. The lordship and affluence that one sees in Sakra [Śakra = ‘powerful’, another name for Indra] and the other deities are, verily his. It is he who is always engaged in all that is good and evil in the three worlds. In consequence of his fullest control over all objects of enjoyment he is called Iswara (the Supreme Lord or Master). Since, again, he is the master of the vast universe, he is called Maheswara.

The whole universe is pervaded by him in diverse forms. It is that deity whose mouth roars and burns the waters of the sea in the form of the huge mare's head!


ॐनमःिशवाय


praṇām

yajvan
05 April 2008, 12:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

As we look to the Mahabharata, the theme of 18 is repeated i.e.
The total work is 18 paravas ( or books or divisions), there are 18 armies, the war is fought for 18 days, the Bhagavad gita is also made up of 18 chapters.
Do you have an opinion on what Veda Vyasa [ Krsna-Dwaipayna] is teaching with this 18. The wise do not offer things by chance, and always save the breath.

Any opinions on this matter?


praṇām

yajvan
06 April 2008, 12:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



As we look to the Mahabharata, the theme of 18 is repeated i.e.
The total work is 18 paravas ( or books or divisions), there are 18 armies, the war is fought for 18 days, the Bhagavad gita is also made up of 18 chapters.
Do you have an opinion on what Veda Vyasa [ Krsna-Dwaipayna] is teaching with this 18.

Here are my thoughts (conjecture) on this number 18. I am looking at this number through the 'optics' of Jyotish. Why so ?

Actions on this earth are greatly influenced by the grahas, that which binds; grAha ग्राह is seizing, holding, catching, receiving; seizure , grasping.
The sage Veda Vyasa [Krsna-Dwaipayna] is also the son of Parashara-muni. A rsi found in the Rig Veda and also the father of Jyotish; Veda Vyasa must be well aware of and adept applying jyotish principles.
And as mentioned in the post above - words, numbers, stories, sanketa (~symbols) are not random; the rsi's are mindful of their worlds and pregnant with meaning.From Jyotish
Karaka कारक
kAraka is the action making , doing , acting , who or what does or produces or creates. A kAraka is a significator or entity ( in this post a graha or ~ planet) that signifies various matters on this good earth.

The number 18
Note first that 18 is ashtadasa or 10 + 8. This 10 is therefore 1+0 = 1 and 8 is = 8. This points to the 1st and 8th houses.

In jyotish, the 1st house is paramount; the kAraka of the first house is the Sun (Surya). The Sun is the king of all the Grahas. The Sun is the natural atmakarka , the indicator of the atma ( of soul, of Brahman, the SELF). It is also the indicator of power, of the king.

In the Mahabharata it deals with royalty. If you look at the first post on this subject you will see this http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=21847#post21847 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=21847#post21847).

The Mahabharata also deals with Atman, the Universal SELF, and this is Krsna.

The Sun is the kAraka of achievement, success, power, father ( as kAraka of the 10th house, 9th house, 5th house); The Mahabharata is deep in the success and progress overall, yet of power and who owns the kingdom. The notion of lineage, ones father (that of the past and the present) in the Mahabharata also plays a key role.

Now this 8th house - It's significator is Saturn (Sani). He signifies troubles, losses, grief ( misery), ailments, imprisonment, gambling, association with cheats. We see this occur with the Pandava, yes? Losses ( at dice), their kingdom, their 12 years (imprisonment) in the forests, the war itself, and small wars gaining kingdoms, land, etc.

Yet before we take the notion of Sani as being 'bad' this is not the case. Sani also is kAraka of working and following (service and livelihood), longevity ( or the lack there of), also renunciation and ascetics. We find these qualities in the Mahabharata lessons offered and the association with brahmana.

We also note that Sani is opposed to Sun. So we have conditions of opposites in this number 18.

Lets look a bit deeper
This number 18 also = 9+9. This nine is significant in Jyotish because it is a Dharma house (bhava). A fiery house owned by Jupiter if we use Aries as the 1st sign the 9th there from is Sagittarius, owned by Jupiter, and Jupiter as the kAraka of the 9th house (bhava).

What is at the core of Yudhishtrhira, also called Dharmaraj? Let us see...This 9th house has two kArakas , both Jupiter and the Sun. The 9th house owns: Dharma², fortune, wealth, religion, journeys, high minded wisdom, virture, gifts, sacrifices, charity, teachers and gurus. The Mahabharata Is filled with this as was Yudhishtrhira and the Pandava.

Now this ninth house is Dhanu ( some write Dhanuh) or Sagittarius, owned by Jupiter. It is a place of royalty. How so? Each rasi or sign has a varNa ( वर्ण class; color;outward appearance , exterior , form , figure , shape) associated with it. We know them as brAhmana, kshatriya,vaishyas and sUdra. And in the Mahabhrata we talk of kings both past and present, the Pandhava, etc. this class is called out, that of kshatriya.

In the Mahabharata what then is a one of the main themes we see? The dharma ( from dhr or that which upholds) of society and that duty the kshatriya needs to perform to uphold society overall.

More can be said about this 9th house (bhava) that many hold in such high regard, but lets look at another rasi.

The 9th from the 9th
What is the 9th from the 9th ( that is jyotish speak for what house resides 9 houses away from the 9th house) - the 5th house. The 5th house is ( again) another dharma and kshatriya house. It's interesting to note that the natural 5th house ( Leo) Simha is owned by none other then the Sun. Yet the kAraka of the 5th bhava is Jupiter. When it comes to most excellent grahas in the heavens one points to the Sun and Jupiter.

The 5th house indicates children - not only the Pandava , but King Dhritarashtra's101 sons and 1 daughter.

The 5th house also indicates higher intelligence and wisdom. This can be seen with with examples from Yudhishtrhira's six¹ questions and Bishma's offer of Vishnu Sahasranamam or 1000 names of Visnu; Other examples point to the various teachings of Vidura to his King and the most notable 701 verses of the Bhagavad Gita, given by the Universal Atman, Krsna, to the child ( 5th house) of Indra, Arjuna.

This 701 could be viewed as 7+0+1=8; 8th house is also a house of deeper truths, undisclosed knowledge, etc. Some opine that the Gita is 700 verses. I will leave it to the experts to solve.

Another indicator of the 5th and Jupiter is the elder brother or the eldest child… this is quite interesting to me. The main character of the Mahabharata is Arjuna. Yet much of the 'motion and change' is due to his older brother, Yudhishtrhira³.

And one could also make a point of Yudhishtrhira's older brother that he was not aware of, Karna. It was said that nobody, not even Arjuna, could equal Karna in archery. Is there more to the 5th house? Sure but lets leave it there for now.

So, as I see it this 18, 10+8, or 9+9 was not a haphazard number selected by Krsna-Dwaipayna.

Any additions, POV's or extentions to this matter is greatly welcomed.


praṇām


1. Six questions: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=16144&postcount=4 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=16144&postcount=4)
2. The bhAghavataM says that there are only twelve men in the whole world who know the ins and outs of dharma in all its subtlety. These twelve are: BrahmA, the Creator; Narada, the roving sage; Lord Siva; Lord SubrahmaNya; the sage Kapila; Manu the law-giver; the boy-devotee Prahlada; King Janaka; Bishma; King Bali; the boy-sage Suka, the reciter of the bhAgavatam; and Yama, the Lord of Death and Dispenser of Justice.
Thus Bishma happens to be one of the twelve most knowledgeable people on dharma. It was fitting therefore that when Yudhishtira, at the end of the mahabharata war wanted to know all the subtleties of all the different types of dharma, he was directed to go to Bhishma by Lord Krishna Himself.
3. Yudhishtrhira was the eldest Pandava, son of King Pandu and Queen Kunti if we do not count Karna who was born first. His name is most excellent - it means yudhi or 'in battle' + sthira or 'steady, calm, unperturbed'; so Yudhishtrhira is he that is steady or unperturbed in battle.

yajvan
06 July 2008, 10:12 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I found this one section insightful, and also revealing...

Yudhiṣṭhira (yudhishtrhira) is asking questions of bhīṣma (bishma) in the Anusasana Parva section of Mahābhārata.
Yudhiṣṭhira asks bhīṣma numerous questions. Yet with a new round of conversation, bhīṣma tells yudhiṣṭhira, here comes bṛ́haspáti¹ (brihaspati or brahmanaspati, some also write Vrihaspati) - none else is better then explaining the matter that you have requested.

Yudhiṣṭhira asks multiple questions - this begins with section CXI of the Anusasana Parva. Yet the one that is the intent of the post comes in section CXIII.
Yudhiṣṭhira asks, 'absence of injury, the observance of yajya, meditation,etc. - which one of these are filled with the greatest merit for the individial?'

Bṛ́haspáti talks of the merits of these virtues, yet says the following: One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one's own self. Where have we heard this before? He continues and says , this in brief is the rule of dharma.

Just prior to this statement bṛ́haspáti says, that man who regards all creatures as his own self, and behaves towards them as towards one-self laying aside the rod of chastisement and completley subjugating his wrath, succeeds in attaining to happiness.

praṇām


1. bṛ́haspáti बृहस्पति - bṛ́has+ páti - lord of prayer or devotion; he is the chief offerer of prayers and sacrifices ; He is also Guru, the most benefical graha, Jupiter.

yajvan
24 September 2009, 08:35 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

In another post we refer to dice and it's application as a vehicle for wisdom. Many here are aware of the Mahābhārata and a game of dice; Yudhiṣṭhira loses his kingdom no less then twice.


That said, lets take a look at at a most profound question:

draupadī, who is dragged before the company by her hair, (an insult since a married woman’s hair is considered sacred) offers a profound question to the Kaurava-s: how can someone who has lost himself (Yudhiṣṭhira) wager someone else in a game? No one can answer her. Even bhīṣma¹ is confounded.

What is being offered here? What is the wisdom? I must state I do not have the insight to reveal the light that is offered, but only have conjecture… what is your opinion on this matter?

praṇām


words

draupadī द्रौपदी - she is belonging to or descendant from drupada ; she is of kṛṣṇā - a noun of draupadī.
Some parts of her name offer the following: drā is to be in need - rooted in dru to run to.
pati is wife , yet pa is guarding , protecting - one would argue 'pa' is what is received from the wife's husband, no?
bhīṣma भीष्म - terrible, efferent , fearful; bhīṣma's (beesh-mah) other names are Devavrata, Gangadatta and Dyu. He is one of the 8 Vasus, the celestials. How did he come to this earth and what was the circumstances? More can be found at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1882 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1882)

devotee
24 September 2009, 10:46 PM
Namaste Yajvan ji,



draupad[/SIZE]ī[/FONT][/B], who is dragged before the company by her hair, (an insult since a married woman’s hair is considered sacred) offers a profound question to the Kaurava-s: how can someone who has lost himself (Yudhiṣṭhira) wager someone else in a game? No one can answer her. Even bhīṣma¹ is confounded.

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=3]What is being offered here? What is the wisdom?

To me, there are many things to consider here :

a) First of all, Yudhisthir has no right to use Draupadi as wager in the game of gambling, whether lost himself or not. Draupadi was his wife & not his property.
b) If the above is true then how Yudhisthir allowed himself to behave in that manner. We cannot accept that he didn't know what he was doing .... Yudhisthir was incarnation of Dharma Himself. How can he commit this sin ? Not only this, this "sin" was not at all counted to his account. The only sin accrued to him was speaking of a half-truth on death of AswaththamA during war. Why this sin didn't accrue to him ?
c) Even if Draupadi was lost to Kauravas in the gamble, she was still the respected daughter-in-law of DhritrAshtra & GAndhAri who were still alive & sitting in the court & witness to everything whatever was going on. Duryodhana's order to DuhshAshan to bring Draupadi by dragging her by hair to the court & also expression of his desire to make her sit on his lap was given in presence of both the parents-in-law. The matter becomes even more serious to think that when Draupadi was dragged to court in this manner, she was "rajswalA" (menstruating). Even BhIshma was a witness to all this. What were these people afraid of ? Can we accept that they were incapable of stopping this atrocity ? Let's not forget that even at that time, DhritrAstra was the King & not Duryodhana !
---------------------------------

I think it was destined to happen to teach the coming generations a lesson.

Draupadi faced this humiliation because of her sin of humiliating Duryodhna & others in Indraprashtha's palace when she had remarked, "They are blind like their father". Though it can be argued that she said this in jest being their "BhAbhi" (in Hindu families, the BhAbhi i.e. wife of one's elder brother & the "dewars" i.e. brothers of husband have a naughty relationship & it is considered ok to indulge in harmless provocation) but it did cross decency & for which she paid heavily.

Gambling is bad & what can happen to a gambler was reflected in the sufferings of the PAndvAs. This was another lesson.

The king must exercise his authority at the right opportunity & if he doesn't it would result in destruction. DhritrAshtra kept mum due to his love for his son & that caused the destruction of not only his kingdom but annihilation of all his 100 sons. This was another lesson.

If the husband is weak in certain aspect, the wife must support him using her own wisdom & not become a handicapped & a meek follower of his husband. This lesson was learnt by GAndhAri who blindfolded herself fully knowing that her husband was blind ... She did it for her PAtivratya (devotion to her husband) but by doing this she couldn't give support to her husband what he needed most (seeing). If GAndhAri could see, perhaps she would have not allowed this heinous crime to happen. This was another lesson to be learnt.

All the Kauravas learnt this lesson how much disastrous an act of humiliating a woman could be. They lost everything in the fire of vengeance. This was the biggest lesson to be learnt by all.

OM

yajvan
25 September 2009, 08:35 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté devotee,


Namaste Yajvan ji,
To me, there are many things to consider here :

a) First of all, Yudhisthir has no right to use Draupadi as wager in the game of gambling, whether lost himself or not. Draupadi was his wife & not his property.
b) If the above is true then how Yudhisthir allowed himself to behave in that manner. We cannot accept that he didn't know what he was doing .... Yudhisthir was incarnation of Dharma Himself. How can he commit this sin ? Not only this, this "sin" was not at all counted to his account. OM

A very insightful post - thank you. To me, it suggests what can occur when loss of control occurs, even to the highest - Yudhiṣṭhira.

If he did not own his self, then where is the authorship to own anything else? And as you mention, even if he did his reign does not include the 'ownership' of draupadī. Is the lesson 'what do we as humans really (really) own?'

So I see a few lessons - on the material level, social level (dice playing) and spiritual level.

On the spiritual level do you believe the loss of self was on the individual level (jiva) or the Universal level (SELF)? It is my humble belief that Vyāsa -ji has crafted this episode to offer insights into the workings of humans on many levels.

I say this is due to the outcomes that occured and also that Kṛṣṇa informed bhīṣma not to stop the game of dice , to me this is another hint; nothing was done even by the king dhṛtarāṣṭra, his position was 'blind' to injustice.


http://www.dollsofindia.com/dollsofindiaimages/articles/draupadi_vastraharan.jpg

photo courtesy of http://www.dollsofindia.com/draupadi.htm

praṇām

LALKAR
25 September 2009, 08:47 AM
Namaste all,

Sorry I don't think Yudhishthir was that wrong

He was truth speaking nobleman once said anything is said, he never lied.

In gambling with Kauravs he lost everything and he got a chance to retain all that he just lost, so he used Draupadi as a chance in that stage.

yajvan
25 September 2009, 11:41 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast Lalkar,



Namaste all,
Sorry I don't think Yudhishthir was that wrong He was truth speaking nobleman once said anything is said, he never lied. In gambling with Kauravs he lost everything and he got a chance to retain all that he just lost, so he used Draupadi as a chance in that stage.

I can see your point that Yudhiṣṭhira perhaps did what he had to do, yet neither Yudhiṣṭhira, nor bhīṣma were able to answer draupadī's question: how can someone who has lost himself (Yudhiṣṭhira) wager someone else in a game?


Why am I making such a big deal about ' not even bhīṣma could address this question' ? The bhAghavataM says that there are only twelve men in the whole world who know the ins and outs of dharma in all its subtlety. These twelve are: BrahmA, the Creator; Narada, the roving sage; Lord Śiva; Lord SubrahmaNya; the sage Kapila; Manu the law-giver; the boy-devotee Prahlada; King Janaka; bhīṣma; King Bali; the boy-sage Suka, the reciter of the bhAgavatam; and Yama, the Lord of Death and Dispenser of Justice.

Thus bhīṣma happens to be one of the twelve most knowledgeable people on dharma and still was confounded on this matter.


praṇām

devotee
25 September 2009, 09:00 PM
If he did not own his self, then where is the authorship to own anything else? And as you mention, even if he did his reign does not include the 'ownership' of draupadī. Is the lesson 'what do we as humans really (really) own?'

So I see a few lessons - on the material level, social level (dice playing) and spiritual level.

On the spiritual level do you believe the lost of self was on the individual level (jiva) or the Universal level (SELF)? It is my humble belief that Vyāsa -ji has crafted this episode to offer insights into the workings of humans on many levels.

I say this due to the outcomes that occured and also that Kṛṣṇa informed bhīṣma not to stop the game of dice , to me this is another hint; nothing was done even by the king dhṛtarāṣṭra, his position was 'blind' to injustice.



Namaste Yajvan ji,

In my humble opinion, this whole episode can also be understood this way :

Yudhisthir losing himself & his brothers in the game of dice .... is like losing one's self to God's wishes including everything one should be proud of ( his brothers ). That leaves the final pride of a person (draupadi's respectful status) in the society which can be hurt by this cruel world. But God protects the pride of those who have surrendered everything to God ... i.e. saving the pride of Draupadi.

I don't know whether I am correct but this is what I can think of.

OM

yajvan
25 September 2009, 10:08 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast devotee,

Namaste Yajvan ji,

In my humble opinion, this whole episode can also be understood this way :Yudhisthir losing himself & his brothers in the game of dice .... is like losing one's self to God's wishes including everything one should be proud of ( his brothers ). That leaves the final pride of a person (draupadi's respectful status) in the society which can be hurt by this cruel world. But God protects the pride of those who have surrendered everything to God ... i.e. saving the pride of Draupadi.
OM

I think your insights are worthy of merit. I wish I were the śāstri that could advance this idea. I continue to look for this person who can add this insight on various levels that Vyāsa-ji writes.

Perhaps he/she will arrive on HDF or in our lives.

praṇām

LALKAR
26 September 2009, 10:01 AM
Namaste Yajvan G et all
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast Lalkar,




I can see your point that Yudhiṣṭhira perhaps did what he had to do, yet neither Yudhiṣṭhira, nor bhīṣma were able to answer draupadī's question: how can someone who has lost himself (Yudhiṣṭhira) wager someone else in a game?


Why am I making such a big deal about ' not even bhīṣma could address this question' ? The bhAghavataM says that there are only twelve men in the whole world who know the ins and outs of dharma in all its subtlety. These twelve are: BrahmA, the Creator; Narada, the roving sage; Lord Śiva; Lord SubrahmaNya; the sage Kapila; Manu the law-giver; the boy-devotee Prahlada; King Janaka; bhīṣma; King Bali; the boy-sage Suka, the reciter of the bhAgavatam; and Yama, the Lord of Death and Dispenser of Justice.

Thus bhīṣma happens to be one of the twelve most knowledgeable people on dharma and still was confounded on this matter.


praṇām

Yajvan G During his last days when bhīṣma was giving knowledge of dharm to Yudhiṣṭhira, he himself accepted that was wrong but he did nothing because he was in the service of Kauravs and Yuvraj Duryodhan was his master and not grandson at the stage.

yajvan
26 September 2009, 03:21 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté Lalkar,


Namaste Yajvan G et all
Yajvan G During his last days when bhīṣma was giving knowledge of dharm to Yudhiṣṭhira, he himself accepted that was wrong but he did nothing because he was in the service of Kauravs and Yuvraj Duryodhan was his master and not grandson at the stage.

Yes, I recall reading this... a good point, well taken; As bhīṣma informs us of whose service he was in, do you think this is a principle that should hold true for all of us?

praṇām

kd gupta
27 September 2009, 08:52 AM
Thank you Yajvanji for indicating the miracle of 18 . Puranas are also 18 and the figure 108 also contains 18 .In India the maturity age is 18, probably, thus everything contains 18 .

And good food for thought by Devoteeji.A lesson for lessons.

Who is at fault , it is very tough to say . Drona insulted Drupad, Draupadi and Dhrashtdumna were born for the revenge. Bhishma insulted one of three sisters, Shikhandi was to take revenge .Rama killed Bali , a Birdhunter was to kill Krsn.Actually everything is related to each other. What Veda says

Yukten mansa vayam devasya savituh save,We always be devoted towards sattwa.

Krsn says..Buddhiyogam satatam bhav Always, 24 hrs. be sattwik.

Chanakya has writtenPurushasya bhagyam , tirya charitram,... nobody knows..but Why ?

Who sent Yudhishter for gambling in second time, where was his lesson from first ?

And how anybody can expect the wisdom from blind Dhratrashtra, even after listening..tatra srirvijayo .

I quote two lines from Ramcharitmanas.

Shastra suchintit puni puni dekhiya, sevit bhupati bas nahi lekhiya.

Rakhiya yuvati sada ur mahin ,yuwati shastra nrapati bas nahin.

LALKAR
27 September 2009, 10:13 AM
Namaste Yajvan G et All

I don't think this is a principle that should hold true for all of us
but this is truth the whole world follows it

even the Hindu officers in Nepal and India have to accept Government's anti-hindu acts
The Upper Caste officers are also forced to provide reservation law even if they don't like it

If it become unbearable the oppose it like the Doctors in govt. services also joined anti-reservation movement during AIIMS agitation

Bhisam's only fault was his to his step-mother Sarsavati that he will support Kauravs
and that was why he never revolted

Eastern Mind
27 September 2009, 10:44 AM
Yajvan: This is just a question of curiousity. I am wondering who termed the Mahabharata the fifth Veda. Perhaps this is a bit of history that is not known. Over time it just happened. Do you know?

Aum Namasivaya

LALKAR
27 September 2009, 10:55 AM
Namaste Eastern Mind

Mahabharat is not 5th Ved Gita is the combination of all Veds
and teachings of Bhīṣma is also much Vedic

yajvan
27 September 2009, 12:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM,

Yajvan: This is just a question of curiousity. I am wondering who termed the Mahabharata the fifth Veda. Perhaps this is a bit of history that is not known. Over time it just happened. Do you know? Aum Namasivaya

Here is some information for your consideration. An early reference i.e. itihāsapurāṇaṃ pañcamaṃ vedānāṃ is called out in the Chāndogya Upaniṣad (7.1.2); It reads like this (Nārada is speaking to Sanatkumāra-ji); Revered sir I have learned the ṛgveda, yajurveda, samāveda, the atharvaveda the 4th, the itihāsa-s and purāṇa-s as the 5th veda, etc. etc.


The Mahābhārata is classified as itihāsa¹ (history) , and hence Nārada's reference to it as the 5th.


Another reference is in the Mahābhārata itself. Ādi (first) Parva (division or section) , says the following: The learned man who recites to others this veda of Vyāsa (Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana) reaps advantage.

Hence the epithet of it considered a 5th veda.



"Whatever is here ( in the Mahābhārata) is found elsewhere. But whatever is not here (in the Mahābhārata) is nowhere else."


praṇām

itihāsa इतिहास 'so it was' ; talk , legend , tradition , history , traditional accounts of former events , heroic history

Eastern Mind
27 September 2009, 12:31 PM
Yajvan: Thanks. I did read a condensed version a long time ago. Still have it around somewhere. But frankly, I found it a bit too full of characters, like 'Dr. Zhivago', or 'War and Peace'. Oh well. It was kind of hard to follow.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
27 September 2009, 01:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté EM

Yajvan: Thanks. I did read a condensed version a long time ago. Still have it around somewhere. But frankly, I found it a bit too full of characters, like 'Dr. Zhivago', or 'War and Peace'. Oh well. It was kind of hard to follow. Aum Namasivaya

Yes, I know what you say. It is good to first read an abbreviated version, then look to the full version when you have interest. I have find this as a road-map approach. IF one tries to read the total Mahābhārata IMHO it is like trying to take a drink out of a fire hose!

I have been reading the full version for some time - (after reading the abbreviated version) ...it is like drinking good tea, its sipped a little at a time.

My simple concern is I cannot see past the words all the time - to the lessons. And the version I have which is considered the 'standard' for an English translation does not have transliteration so I can inspect each word to ferret out a deeper meaning.
I have found a few people that go deeper into the Mahābhārata , but not in aggregate. Perhaps we will be blessed with a śāstri on HDF that can address our deeper questions:

Who in the Mahābhārata (of the main characters) other then Kṛṣṇa are enlightened beings ( other then the devatā visited)? It is my understanding the twins, nakūla and sahadeva were enlightened beings - yet I would not get this from my readings.
The Mahābhārata covers all fields of life - can we take them one at a time and offer the lesson for each?
Why a blind King , Dhṛtarāṣṭra? What quality does he represent?
And the significance of Duryodhana ? What deeper lessons of our being does he represent?
Other then the Bhāgavad gītā, are there major lessons that deal with mokṣa?These are a few of many I ponder.

praṇām

yajvan
09 December 2009, 04:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast


Who in the Mahābhārata (of the main characters) other then Kṛṣṇa are enlightened beings ( other then the devatā visited)? It is my understanding the twins, nakūla and sahadeva were enlightened beings - yet I would not get this from my readings.

The Mahābhārata covers all fields of life - can we take them one at a time and offer the lesson for each?
Why a blind King , Dhṛtarāṣṭra? What quality does he represent?
And the significance of Duryodhana ? What deeper lessons of our being does he represent?
Other then the Bhāgavad gītā, are there major lessons that deal with mokṣa?These are a few of many I ponder.

For those that are reading this epic, Paramahaṃsa Nityānanda-ji offers some relevent insights into the Mahābhārata. He gives a deeper understanding of the main characters, and what qualities they represent. http://www.youtube.com/user/LifeBlissFoundation#p/f/11/yfvF4BPrIdk (http://www.youtube.com/user/LifeBlissFoundation)

Perhaps a few of you may have interest

praṇām

lmanzo
09 March 2010, 12:40 AM
What do you think is the symbolic meaning of Devavrata shooting arrows into his mother Ganga?

yajvan
17 May 2010, 09:07 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



I have found a few people that go deeper into the Mahābhārata , but not in aggregate. Perhaps we will be blessed with a śāstri on HDF that can address our deeper questions:

The very first words of the Mahābhārata that begins with the adi parva says the following:

oṃ
nārāyaṇaṃ namaskṛtya naraṃ caiva narottamam
devīṃ sarasvatīṃ caiva tato jayam udīrayet

this says , having bowed down to nārāyaṇa and nara,
the most exalted male being and to devī sarasvatī must
the word jaya be uttered

This is then repeated as the first uvāca ( vāc or sound, speech, voice) for each avāhana (invocation , invitation , inviting, calling) for the following 17 parvan's¹, 18 in all.

So my question is , why so? Why did veda vyāsa-ji take to this method? ( just to inform you, I do not know the depth and breath to this question myself)

This word jaya is quite interesting. We know it used most often as hail ! Its root is ji meaning winning, conquering; the notion of victory and , triumph.
Yet it has a multitude of other meanings - one is a name for arjuna (son of pāṇḍu), the sun, an an attendant of viṣṇu , of yudhiṣṭhira at virāṭa's court , and several more definitions.

What is the significance? Why must this word be uttered? Is it for the sake of victory? If it were to be another name for arjuna , he is called out already as nara and kṛṣṇa-ji as nārāyaṇa.

Could it be ja in jaya ? Ja is 'birth' and each chapter/division/parvan is the 'birth' of new wisdom , hence Jaya inclusive of ja is uttered for success in the chapter offered, after first recognizing nārāyaṇa, nara and sarasvatī.

Any thoughts on this matter?

praṇām

words
parvan - a division or section. It is also a knot , joint ; limb , member

yajvan
01 June 2010, 05:48 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast


I wrote in a recent post:

The bhāghavataṁ says that there are only twelve men in the whole world who know the ins and outs of dharma in all its subtlety. These twelve are: Brahmā, the Creator; Narada, the roving sage; Lord Śiva; Lord Subrahmaṇya; the sage Kapila; Manu the law-giver; the boy-devotee Prahlada; King Janaka; bhīṣma ; King Bali; the boy-sage Suka, the reciter of the bhAgavatam; and Yama, the Lord of Death and Dispenser of Justice.
Thus bhīṣma happens to be one of the twelve most knowledgeable people on dharma. It was fitting therefore that when Yudhiṣṭhira, at the end of the mahabharata war wanted to know all the subtleties of all the different types of dharma, he was directed to go to bhīṣma by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself.

We know bhīṣma is extremely wise. For me reading the mahābhārata the most insightful wisdom comes from the chapters ( parvan) where bhīṣma-ji is discoursing with yudhiṣṭhira on puruṣārtha (the 4 areas of life) i.e. artha , acquirement of wealth; kāma , the gratification/fulfillment of desire ; dharma , discharge of duty ; mokṣa or liberation, the realization of the Supreme.

Yet that said, one must be cognizant of bhīṣma and the relationship to Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself. On his death bed of arrows, with 56 days remaining left on this earth, much takes place.

Kṛṣṇa-ji says to yudhiṣṭhira the king, bhīṣma lying on a bed of arrows is thinking of me. My mind was concentrated on him ( as yudhiṣṭhira went to Kṛṣṇa-ji's room and found him in stillness, withdrawn within). He tells yudhiṣṭhira to go to him and question him as he knows the past , present and future, duty, etc.

So they both (and others) go to bhīṣma-ji. Upon arriving bhīṣma offers the highest praises and salutations to the Lord. In return the Lord infuses/bestows upon him the knowledge of past, present and future knowledge. He also removes bhīṣma-ji's pain and discomfort, and infuses celestial vision upon him. With that the group that was there said we will return tomorrow and yudhiṣṭhira will begin the questions.

Upon their return it is Kṛṣṇa-ji that addresses bhīṣma-ji first, as requested by yudhiṣṭhira to 'speak first'. In his speaking He points out this most salient point:
O' bhīṣma what ever you wish to say onto the enquiring son of paṇḍu ( yudhiṣṭhira ) will be regarded on earth to be as authoritative as the declarations of the veda.

The beauty here as I see it is, Kṛṣṇa is looking to remove the grief from yudhiṣṭhira and chooses one of his devotees that is most wise to do this , bhīṣma-ji. He prepares bhīṣma-ji accordingly e.g. removing pain, doubts , etc. And He informs us all that this knowledge/discourse will benefit all and is as authoritative as the veda.
He says it this way: That person who will conduct himself according to the authority of thy (bhīṣma-ji's) declarations will obtain the reward of every meritorious act.

It is from this conversation that one can make the decision to read this part of the mahābhārata and gain insights and ideas into proper behavior, duty, etc.
Said another way, the mahābhārata is a distillation of the veda-s. For one that wishes to understand the ved and upaniṣad-s can look to this work as a perfect adjunct.
There are part of the mahābhārata's symbols I am still perplexed by, yet reading the discourse of yudhiṣṭhira & bhīṣma-ji have been quite rewarding.

praṇām

yajvan
07 June 2010, 10:07 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast

The mahābhārata tells us hostility springs from 5 causes ( or sources ) :

women ( fighting over ownership, arguments between 2)
land - how much, who owns it, property lines, etc.
harsh words
natural incompatibilities ( the mouse and the cat)
injury It seems to me that all can be wrapped up in the last item - injury. It seems to me that each in the list brings some level of injury by word, deed or action and one is bruised in the heart, the mind, or in the flesh.

Even though one may forgive another, feelings of anomosity lie hidden like fire wood. Confidence in friendship is lost.

I have seen this occur on several occasions amd know this to be true.

praṇām

vcindiana
07 June 2010, 10:42 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

injury
It seems to me that all can be wrapped up in the last item - injury. It seems to me that each in the list brings some level of injury by word, deed or action and one is bruised in the heart, the mind, or in the flesh.

Even though one may forgive another, feelings of anomosity lie hidden like fire wood. Confidence in friendship is lost.

I have seen this occur on several occasions amd know this to be true.

praṇām

Dear Yaj:

Terrorism what we more and more witness nowadays is the result of hostility and as you mentioned it is in turn the result of an injury. But an injury not necessarily brings on hostility unless there is fear. It is the fear of loosing my belongings, my prestige, my worth, my religion, my convictions, my belief, my faith etc... etc..,. People who forgive are not fearful. I wonder what Bhishma says about fear.

Love...... VC

yajvan
08 June 2010, 04:08 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast VC,


I wonder what Bhishma says about fear.

Bhīṣma-ji talks of fear and I will post at another time. That said, here is what the taittirīya upaniṣad offers on fear :
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=45428&postcount=32

praṇām

yajvan
13 June 2010, 05:30 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namast�

In post number 7 above I offered my view on why 18 is a significant number in the mahābhārata i.e. 18 chapters, 18 days of fighting, etc. Let me extend this idea just a bit more:

I wrote on another post:

the pāṇḍva army lost 7 akśauhini-s�
the kaurava army lost 11 akśauhini-s
Total 18 akśauhini-s lost ; total kṣatriya deaths at ~ 3.54 million in 18 days


Note that 1 akśauhini = 21,870 chariots ; 21,870 elephants; 65,610 horse-mounted warriors and 109,350 infantry, as per the mahābhārata;

Now if we add each number :
21,870 or 2+1+8+7+0 = 18
65,610 or 6+5+6+1+0 = 18
109,350 or 1+0+9+3+5+0 =18
 
praṇām

yajvan
23 July 2010, 11:15 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté

Have you ever wondered what becomes of the pāṇḍava-s? We know of their decent to various regions ~ heaven/hell ~ ; yet I wondered their final position in creation.
I read this dialog in the mahābhārata (śanti parvan) where yudhiṣṭhira asks bhīṣma, with regards to ourselves (the pāṇḍava) we are afflicted and attached to the objects that are productive of sorrow, indifference or joy ( the 3 guna-s). What will be the end to which we shall attain?

bhīṣma -ji says the following - you are the pāṇḍava-s. You have been born in a stainless race. Having sported in the regions of the deva-s¹ you will come back to the world of men. Living happily as long as creation lasts at the next new creation you will be admitted among the deva-s and enjoy all kinds of felicities and will be at last numbered ( attainment) among the siddha-s¹. Let no fear be yours, be cheerful.

Now I am not certain of the final outcome of draupadī ( kṛṣṇā draupadī ), but will be looking out for this as I continue to study the mahābhārata.

praṇām

words

deva-s - the heavenly or shining ones. Many talk of the víśve-devā́s or all all the gods collectively .
Some talk of a class of deities often counted as 33 i.e. 11 for each of the 3 worlds or tri-daśa.hey are counted as the 8 vasus , 11 rudras , and 12 ādityas + 2 aśvins are added.
Another view of the viśve-deva-s or is the following: According to the viṣṇu purāṇas they were sons of viśvā , daughter of dakṣa , and their names are : 1. vasu , 2. satya , 3. kratu , 4. dakṣa , 5. kāla , 6. kāma , 7. dhṛti , 8. kuru , 9. purū-ravas , 10. mādravas ; two others are added by some 11. rocaka or locana and 12. dhvani or dhūri . They are particularly worshipped at śrāddhas and at the vaiśvadeva ceremony.
** I am unclear on how to descern whether the expression viśve devāḥ refers to all the gods or to the particular group of deities mentioned above
A siddha on earth is considered a being of great purity and perfection and said to possess the eight supernatural faculties, Yet there are others.

The siddha-s inhabit, together with the muni-s, bhuvar-loka between the earth and heaven. The viṣṇu purāṇas suggest that 88,000 of them occupy the regions of the sky north of the sun and south of the seven ṛṣis ; they are regarded as immortal , but only as living to the end of a kalpa sometimes this notion of a siddha is
sometimes siddha-s are confused with the sādhya-s or take their place when mentioning divine beings.
sādhyas are ' they that are to be propitiated' . A class of celestial beings belonging to the gaṇa-devatā sometimes mentioned in the veda; Their world is said to be above the sphere of the gods ; according to yāska their locality is the bhuvar-loka between the earth and sun ; The sādhyas are described as created after the gods with natures exquisitely refined. In the purāṇas they are sons of sādhyā , and their number varie between twelve and seventeen.

Visvamitra
30 August 2010, 03:11 PM
Here is some information for your consideration. An early reference i.e. itihāsapurāṇaṃ pacamaṃ vedānāṃ is called out in the Chāndogya Upaniṣad (7.1.2); It reads like this (Nārada is speaking to Sanatkumāra-ji); Revered sir I have learned the ṛgveda, yajurveda, samāveda, the atharvaveda the 4th, the itihāsa-s and purāṇa-s as the 5th veda, etc. etc.



The Mahābhārata is classified as itihāsa (history) , and hence Nārada's reference to it as the 5th.



Another reference is in the Mahābhārata itself. Ādi (first) Parva (division or section) , says the following: The learned man who recites to others this veda of Vyāsa (Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana) reaps advantage.

Hence the epithet of it considered a 5th veda.




"Whatever is here ( in the Mahābhārata) is found elsewhere. But whatever is not here (in the Mahābhārata) is nowhere else."



praṇām

Do you think section 98 of the adi Parva also has relevance to this where it is stated that, "This [Bharata] is equal unto the Vedas: it is holy and excellent. It bestoweth wealth, fame, and life. Therefore, it should be listened to by men with rapt attention."

yajvan
30 August 2010, 07:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

We know veda vyāsa muni is a very special being. He authored the mahābhārata along with 18 major puraṇa-s , succinctly arranged the veda's into a 4 book structure and is said to be the author of the brahma sūtra-s.
Veda vyāsa is more of a title then actual name. Vyāsa means 'arranger, compiler'. Hence the 'arranger, compiler' of the veda-s.
But there is more to this muni then meets the eye. Let me offer a few ideas for your review.

Vyāsa's name is kṛṣṇa dvaipāyana.

Kṛṣṇa= dark in complexion and dvaipāyana suggests where vyāsa was born in the following place:
dvi द्वि is 2 ;
pāya पाय is water
dvipa द्विप is drinking twice and dvīpa द्वीप an island , peninsula , sandbank.
Hence born on an island where two rivers join or meet.But there is more. Vyāsa's father was the great muni we find in the ṛg veda , mahāṛṣi parāśar ( some just say parāśara), and the father of jyotish. His mother was satyavatī . Her name means truthful or speaking the truth , yet too it also means 'of a river'. Note vyāsa's name 'dvaipāyana' also means between two rivers. Yet too there is more 'water' to follow.

So this vyāsa is not only prolific when it comes to 'arranging and compiling', he is also a blessed being on this good earth. How so? According to vyāsa¹, when his students asked him of his origin he tells them that brahama the creator asked for help from hari (nārāyaṇa) to take on his role as creator. Hari continues to talk of times when He will incarnate to rescue the world from time-to-time. Upon His talk he uttered the sound bhū and the whole atmosphere resounded (vibrated) with it.
From that sound arose the ṛṣi sarasvat - the son born of speech of nārāyaṇa . We once more note that this name sarasvat means abounding in or connected with ponds, a river, a sea. This ṛṣi sarasvat is also called apāntaratamas --> apān+tara+tamas = to breathe out, expire + surpassing, conquering + darkness,ignorance.
This ṛṣi could see past, present and future events. He was assigned by nārāyaṇa Himself to be the distributor of the veda-s .

He informs apāntaratamas that in the age of kali he will take birth from the congress of mahāṛṣi parāśar and satyavatī . Because it is the dark age ( kali) he too will be dark complected (kṛṣṇa).

The Lord tells ṛṣi apāntaratamas that with each manvantara (the period or age of a manu which comprises about 71 mahā-yugas )
it will be his actions to distribute and arrange the veda-s i.e. be a vyāsa. He says much-much more, but this gives you the lineage of kṛṣṇa dvaipāyana to veda vyāsa to Lord nārāyaṇa.

If we look to another pace - the brahma sūtra-s (3.3.33) says,
as long as the mission is not completed/fulfilled there is existence of those that have a mission.

That is, even for those that are completely realized beings, they can be re-born i.e. perfected beings may be reborn for the fulfillment of some Divine mission.

This is the rationale behind ṛṣi apāntaratamas who is vyāsa-ji eon after eon. It is also sanatkumāra-ji we find as skanda. Are there others ? No doubt.


Back to water ...
Note the connection with water, rivers ocean i.e. sarasvat, dvaipāyana, satyavatī and finally nārāyaṇa .



नार nāra is water ( also relating to or proceeding from man)
āyana is approaching and ayana is a path, way, or progress.Let me ask the HDF reader for your POV - what is this connection to water? Is there a meaning or is it just coincidence?

oṁ namo nārāyaṇaya
ॐ नमोनारायणय


praṇām

reference : Mahābhārata , śanti parvan II, section CCCL (150)

yajvan
30 September 2010, 07:47 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

During the day, one can be considered engaged in or at kurukṣhetra. We know this word to mean the field ( kṣetra) of the kuru's¹. We know that the 18 day war outlined in the mahābhārata occurred here.

Yet with further inspection on this word kuru it also means kartāras or 'doers' and this is rooted in (√) kṛ ( or kri) . This kṛ is quite a profound an robust root sound in saṃskṛtam, ( properly saṃskṛtā ). Yet in its simplest definition it means to do , make , perform , accomplish , cause , effect , prepare , undertake . Hence on 1st inspection this word is viewed as the field of the kuru's, yet it also means the field ( kṣetra ) of doing (kṛ).

We as humanbeings are engaged in the field of doing both internally and externally to our bodies. That is, we engage in work, play, family, fun, thoughts,finances, worry, happiness, good behaviors, bad behaviors, etc. etc. on a daily basis. We reside in the field of action (kurukṣhetra). This is one of many lessons the mahābhārata teaches us.

So, when one comes home for the day and is about to retire for the night, is there any reflection on what one did during the day? Did your actions promote clarity of mind, or retard it? Did one practice their sādhana ? Did one engage in the 'game of dice' i.e. delusion, of what is real and unreal? Did one spend time with any of king dhritarāshtra's (some write dhṛtarāṣṭra) 100 sons?

Who are some of these sons? Material desire, anger, rath, lust, dis-honesty, harshness of speech, arrogance, selfishness, etc. Did you meet with any of the sons of pāṇḍu¹ ( purity , from pāṇḍ, suggesting white).

Who then is this king dhritarāshtra ( as a symbol) and his first born son, duryodhana, then ? And pāṇḍu and his sons the pāṇḍavas ?
We will discuss some of these notions in the upcoming posts.

Yet when you are home is there reflection of where you spent your time ? Was the day a maze of activity and you finally end up in bed ? When you look back on the battle of the day ( kurukṣhetra ) who won? Who gained?

The whole of the mahābhārata by vyāsa-ji¹ is quite profound and teaches by symbolism, analogies, hints (saṃketa),etc. with various esoteric meanings for one's learning .
Every now and then a door of insight opens and lets the light ( meaning) come in. This light has been revealed by many authors from different disciplines. Yet new insights have been offered by the writings of svāmī paramahaṃsa yogānaṃda-ji ( some write paramahansa yogananda). For this I am blessed to read some of his work that was delivered via a friend. Any blemishes regarding some of the ideas and definitions, symbols and the like are fully mine.

praṇām

words

kurukṣhetra kuru - of a people of India and of their country situated near the country of the pañcāla-s ; hence often connected with pañcāla or pañcāla ; The uttara-kuravaḥ , (or uttarāḥ kuravaḥ) are the northern kurus , the most northerly of the four mahā-dvīpas or principal divisions of the known world, distinguished from the dakṣiṇāḥ kuravaḥ or southern kurus.

pāṇḍu - a son of vyāsa by the wife of vicitra-vīrya and brother of dhṛta-rāṣṭra and vidura - he was father of the five pāṇḍavas.
Veda Vyāsa is the one who compiled the veda-s and is also known as Kṛṣṇa Dvaipāyana ;
Kṛṣṇa= dark in complexion and Dvaipāyana suggests where Vyāsa was born:
dvi द्वि is 2 ; pāya पाय is water dvipa द्विप is drinking twice and dvīpa द्वीप an island , peninsula , sandbank.
Hence born on an island where two rivers join or meet

yajvan
03 October 2010, 07:35 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast


Who then is this king dhritarāshtra ( as a symbol) and his first born son, duryodhana, then ? And pāṇḍu and his sons the pāṇḍavas ?
We will discuss some of these notions in the upcoming posts.

The whole of the mahābhārata by vyāsa-ji is quite profound and teaches by symbolism, analogies, hints (saṃketa),etc. with various esoteric meanings for one's learning .


The continuation of these ideas will be offered at this HDF post site: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=51777#post51777 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=51777#post51777)


praṇām

Kumar_Das
08 October 2010, 04:13 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté

In post number 7 above I offered my view on why 18 is a significant number in the mahābhārata i.e. 18 chapters, 18 days of fighting, etc. Let me extend this idea just a bit more:

I wrote on another post:

the pāṇḍva army lost 7 akśauhini-s¹
the kaurava army lost 11 akśauhini-s
Total 18 akśauhini-s lost ; total kṣatriya deaths at ~ 3.54 million in 18 days
Note that 1 akśauhini = 21,870 chariots ; 21,870 elephants; 65,610 horse-mounted warriors and 109,350 infantry, as per the mahābhārata;

Now if we add each number :
21,870 or 2+1+8+7+0 = 18
65,610 or 6+5+6+1+0 = 18
109,350 or 1+0+9+3+5+0 =18
 
praṇām

Excellent analysis yajvan-ji, I'm so grateful to you for bringing to light this number 18 pattern.

The Mahabharata has 1.8 million words altogether and 18 episodes

the Bhagavad Gita has 18 chapters

Barbarika, son of Ghatotghaj or also written as Ghatotkacha witnessed the 18 days of action at Kurukshetra

The authorized Upanishads are considered to be 108 in number - 1+0+8 = 18

The Mahapuranas and Upapuranas are also said to be 18 each

It is said that Veda Vyasa is the author of Mahabharata, Brahma Sutras and Puranas.

So also what about the Brahma Sutras?

as for 18

Brahma Sutras contain 555 aphorisms

5 + 5 + 5 = 15 + (5 is added together 3 times) 3 = 18

or alternatively

5 x 5 x 5 = 125

1 + 2 + 5 = 8

(5 is multiplied against itself 2 times) 10

8 + 10 = 18

yet I am not satisfied

For me I calculated a pattern relating to 31 showing up (just trial)



Brahma Sutras contain 555 aphorisms in all

in total 4 chapters each further divided into 4 phalas

4 chapters x 4 padas = 16

18 can be 6 x 3 or 9 x 2

6 : 3
9 : 2

15 : 5

4 x 5 = 20 x 5 = 100 x 5 = 500

620

16 x 5 = 80 x 5 = 400 x 5 = 2000

2480

2480
620
3100

5+5+5 = 15 + 16 (4 chapters x 4 padas) = 31

*EDIT* (I was reading my post again, and it just suddenly dawned upon me)

interestingly if you reverse "31", you get "13"

and if you substract 13 from 31, you get 18

wow I was wondering why I decided to keep this number 31 calculation, even though its not "18" and possibly could not have any relation to it, deriving that number.

Om Namo Narayana!

Kumar_Das
16 October 2010, 05:08 PM
or alternatively

5 x 5 x 5 = 125

1 + 2 + 5 = 8

(5 is multiplied against itself 2 times) 10

...


5 x 5 x 5 = 125

another way would be

1 x 2 x 5 = 10 + [1 + 2 + 5] 8 = 18

yajvan
19 October 2010, 02:53 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Another number that appears in the mahābhārata is 12.

The pāṇḍava-s are exiled for 12 years + 1 year in hiding. If recognized while in hiding then they were to return for another 12 years to the forest.
There is the 'touch sacrifice' - If vāsava ( indra) does not pour rain for these twelve years, I shall then perform the Touch-sacrifice.
in 12 days one becomes cleansed of all sin
the 12 year sacrifice , one becomes cleansed of sin , being so efficaciousThere are many more we can list out and the one that is top of mind is from the rāmāyaṇa : śrī rām and sīta have been married for twelve years rāmaḥ is then to become king, yet this does not occur and
and He is exiled ( for him 14 years).

What is it about this number 12? Here are my views on this matter.

The 12th house is that of mokṣa.
The 12 house has multiple kāraka-s¹ that indicate confinement or seclusion, knowledge, mokṣa, foreign travels, sorrows or the loss of sorrows.
Yet there is more. Who owns the 12th house in the natural zodiac ? It is Jupiter, bṛ́has-páti बृहस्पति bráhmanas-páti - lord of prayer , chief offerer of prayer and yajya (worship). It is he that is the natural owner.
How many earth years does it take for Jupiter to orbit the sun? 11.86 years or ~12 years~. How many days does that equal? 4332.
4+3+3+2= 12.This 12 as Jupiter, known as guru, a grāhaka - one who seizes or takes captive, is the one that brings meaningful change to the person, to the aspirant, the sādhu.
And this improvement comes in twelve's, a full cycle for guru to transit all the houses , all areas of life.

Svāmī paramahaṃsa yogānaṃda-ji says¹ the following: Once bad sense habits are well established in the body the free will of wisdom is banished ( exiled, my word not svāmī-ji's ) for at least 12 years. Firm establishment of good new habits are often only possible in 12 years. In 12 year cycles man slowly advances his spiritual evolution.

There is much much more we can discuss . This 12 is 1+2 = 3 and the 3 is found throughout vedic literature. This 12 = 4 x 3 and one's birth chart is made up of 3 cycles of the 4 area's of life, puruṣārtha¹.

But what of the pāṇḍava-s, exiled for 12 years + 1 year in hiding. What of this 1 year of 'hiding' , what is the significance?

praṇām

words & references

kāraka - doer, indicator, some like to call significator.
Svāmī paramahaṃsa yogānaṃda - from his bhāgavad gītā translation pg. xli
puruṣārtha - the four aims of human existence - kāma , artha , dharma and mokṣa , final emancipation

yajvan
14 November 2010, 08:19 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namast





In post number 7 above I offered my view on why 18 is a significant number in the mahābhārata i.e. 18 chapters, 18 days of fighting, etc. Let me extend this idea just a bit more:

I wrote on another post:

the pāṇḍva army lost 7 akśauhini-s
the kaurava army lost 11 akśauhini-s
Total 18 akśauhini-s lost ; total kṣatriya deaths at ~ 3.54 million in 18 days
Note that 1 akśauhini = 21,870 chariots ; 21,870 elephants; 65,610 horse-mounted warriors and 109,350 infantry, as per the mahābhārata;

Now if we add each number :
21,870 or 2+1+8+7+0 = 18
65,610 or 6+5+6+1+0 = 18
109,350 or 1+0+9+3+5+0 =18

In the quote above and post #7 I considered this number 18. Yet my mind kept on saying where else have I viewed this 18 before :headscratch: ?


This 18 appears in jyotish ( the basis of post 7 ).

We know rāhu and ketu as the ascending and descending nodes of the moon. It just so happens that these nodes spend 18 months in each sign (rāśi). 18 months is 1 1/2 years. There are 12 signs X 1 1/2 years = 18 years for a complete trip around the zodiac. Add to the fact that the rāhu period in the Viṁsottari daśā system equals 18 years.

Why is rāhu and ketu significant in the mahābhārata one may ask?
Rāhu has much to do ( and influence) with material gain and loss, arguments, falsehood, cunning, travel and the like. Ketu has much to do with imprisonment withdrawal, intrigue. Yet ketu also influences philosophy, occultism, detachment and above all mokṣa. Do these qualities sound familiar regarding what transpires in the mahābhārata?

The connection to these two nodes and 18 as I see it is not by happenstance, but the wisdom of veda vyāsa.

praṇām

words

rāhu - ' the Seizer' ; a name of a daitya or demon who is supposed to seize the sun and moon and thus cause eclipses ; when the gods had churned the ocean for the amṛta or nectar of immortality , rāhu disguised himself like one of them and drank a portion ; but the Sun and Moon revealed the fraud to viṣṇu , who cut off rāhu's head , the tail became ketu ; rāhu is regarded as a dragon's head , as the ascending node of the moon or point where the moon intersects the ecliptic in passing northwards
rāśi - is a heap, a mass, a pile, a group; in joytiṣ it is the name given to sign, as a collection point.

yajvan
01 May 2011, 08:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté


Within the mahābhārata we find hanuman-ji ( some prefer writing hanumān-ji) . Due to being a son of vāyu or māruta ,
'the wind' he then is a ~natural~ brother of bhīma, one of the 5 pāṇḍavaḥ.

If we fast forward to the bhāgavad gītā we will find that arjun holds the flag ( banner) of hanuman-ji on his chariot.
Why did arjun choose this among many symbols ? Here are my thoughts on this matter.
Please add your ideas as you see fit.

hanuman-ji
Hanuman-ji is from hanumat, meaning having large jaws. If we go down one level to hanu it means
'anything which destroys or injures life ' , a weapon ; as han means to smite , slay , hit , kill , mar , destroy.
Hence from this level arjun's symbol is that of a weapon - let all be warned who wish to encounter us!

On another level hanumān-ji was the perfect devotee of śrī rāmacandra in his war with rāvaṇa .
This as I see it shows arjun's devotion to kṛṣṇa-jī , another form of viṣṇu and śrī rāmacandra. He
will be unwavering to the will of kṛṣṇa-jī. This too, the flag is a reminder to his opponents just as rāvaṇa
was defeated, so too will you.

sugrīva
Another name for hanumān-ji is sugrīva .Here the inference is a bit more subtle.
This word can mean 'the countenance of a friend'. And who is arjun's most dear friend? Kṛṣṇa-jī. Yet sugrīva can
be a name for indra , arjun's father, showing his respect. Another idea too is sugrīva means hero
( when used in the masculine gender); Hence arjun shows his confidence, via this banner.

Another point is that sugrīva is one of the four horses kṛṣṇa-ji guides. The other three being balāhaka,
megha-puṣpa, and śaivya. What to you think the meaning or symbol that is being offered?

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/hanuman-unknown.jpg

praṇām

smaranam
02 May 2011, 07:00 AM
Namaste YajvanJi

I thought ... Shri RAm had promised HanumAn that He will reside on His flag - dhvaj in the dharmayuddha in future (KrushNa avtAr), and assure victory. Always acting as protector on behalf of the Lord. Of course, Bheem is Hanuman's little brother and they met later on that's a different story.

Just as - the mountain that Hanuman was about to carry but had to leave back on the ground, and so the mountain could not see Lord RAmchandra as a result. He was feeling sorry when Ram gave him darshan and said - don't worry, if not this time, when I come back again, you will not only live in my presence, you will be worshipped just as me. Who is this mountain ?

GirirAj Govardhan !

praNAm

Jai Shri KrushNa Jai Shri RAm

Arjuni
04 May 2011, 11:53 PM
Namast,


Yajvan, I read this passage the day before you posted your question about Arjuna's banner. Though it's the opinion of a scholar linking Vedic symbols to later religious rituals and writings, rather than a devotee's spiritual considerations, I thought to add it here since it is somewhat relevant to the question asked, and also seems to support your thought of Hanumān-as-Sugrīva being a subtle reference to Arjuna's father (as well as to Kṛṣṇa).


The earlier part of the chapter discusses war symbols and then enters a section entitled "The Banner and Indra," from which this analysis is excerpted. (Not all of it is relevant, but I've left in most of the discussion so that it reads more clearly than a bunch of choppy segments would. Offered without commentary, as I am fairly new to Mahābhārata and thus nowhere near competent to express opinion on it.)

"...In this connection the banner of Arjuna poses an important point and appears to be only another form of the banner of Indra. Arjuna is said to have a monkey on his banner. It is important to note that, in spite of the account of how Hanumān took his position on the banner of Arjuna, the latter is never called Hanūmat-dhvaja, the usual epithet being only monkey-bannered. Now looking to the close association of Arjuna with Indra, it will be well to see if there is any connection between the monkey and Indra. Indra is actually said to have assumed the form of monkey, when he stole soma from the sacrifice of Naimiṣa. He is also said to have been propitiated with an oblation when he ran away with soma and sat upon a tree. Now the banner of Indra has more than the monkey. It is said to be having the tail of a lion and a fierce face. This tallies with the description of the banner of Aśvatthāman which also has the tail of the lion and is said to be like the banner of Śakra. The epithets ugra and bhīma are primarily used in RV for Indra, with the few exceptions of Brahmaṇaspati and Agni who are also war-gods. He is also often compared with the lion (X.180.2; IV.16.14, etc.). It seems probable, hence, that the idea in the war-banner of Arjuna or of Aśvatthāman is that of the Śakra-dhvaja...."

He discusses a bit more about banners in RV, then adds this:
"...In the verse VIII.61.12, the terrible Indra is said to be employed in war as he is the destroyer of the enemies. Probably, this employment refers to the actual ritual of hoisting some sort of an image - possibly on a banner - prior to the advance....
It is easy to understand that it is not the banner, in itself, that protects; it is the deity that it represents! The deity in the banner, thus, has a twofold purpose - (i) to protect the army; and (ii) to keep defeat away. In the second is the germ of the custom of making the banner look fierce, or imposing, by means of various figures. We have already noted how the monkey and the bird Garuḍa are associated with the war-banner. We learn from the Mb. that the banner of Arjuna was not merely kapi-dhvaja, but also, it was terrible. It had a terrible face and the tail of a lion. It is said to protect the army of Arjuna, causing fear in the minds of the enemy. The same idea is reflected in the speech of Hanumān, who says that he would roar terribly from the banner of Arjuna so as to cause death in the rival army (Mb. Vana-149.17, 18). This belief in the divinity that the banner represented is to be marked from the account of the army of Porus, according to which it was an offense punishable by death to discard the image in the field of battle, for it was the god that would take revenge if so insulted. The point gets support in RV in the fact that the arrows or the weapons were directed at the banners (dhvajeṣu didyavaḥ patanti - VII.85.2), obviously to smash the banner and nullify the divine support of the enemy."

-Sadashiv A. Dange, from ch. 13 ("Aspects of War"), Images from Vedic Hymns and Rituals, pp. 174-176.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

yajvan
05 May 2011, 09:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté



"...In this connection the banner of Arjuna poses an important point and appears to be only another form of the banner of Indra. Arjuna is said to have a monkey on his banner. It is important to note that, in spite of the account of how Hanumān took his position on the banner of Arjuna, the latter is never called Hanūmat-dhvaja, the usual epithet being only monkey-bannered.

What you have provided is quite interesting and gives some support to the views of my studies. Its all about symbols. This is how the wise teach - by ideas, inferences, they do not use sludge hammers over our heads ( yet at times this may be a useful approach, no ?)

As mentioned - the flag marked with hanūman-ji is called out in the bhāgavad gītā ( chapt 2, verse 20) as kapi-dhvaji :
kapi = monkey/ape + dhvaji = mark , emblem , ensign , characteristic - which supports the notion of monkey bannered.

praṇām

yajvan
22 November 2011, 12:04 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté

There are some other HDF posts as of late that are discussing killing and suicide. It is said we do this every day. How can this be ? It is told to us as a story within the mahābhārata, and the battle of kurukṣetra.

The story that appears in the mahābhārata, karṇa parvan, offering the notion of killing and suicide begins in section 65¹. Let me set the stage from a maco point of view so one can appreciate the condition : Ajun is contemplating killing his brother yudhiṣṭhira and then killing himself, suicide no less. How does this occur ?

We find yudhiṣṭhira sorely wounded 'with his limbs scorched from the shafts of karṇa' and returns to his camp. Arjun and bhīma talk and arjun requests bhīma to return to his eldest brothers' side to see how he is doing. Bhīma suggests it would be best if he himself goes and checks up on yudhiṣṭhira , so arjun and kṛṣṇa-ji head back to camp.

Well, when yudhiṣṭhira sees arjun he surmises that that arjun must have slayed karṇa. When arjun tells the king that this was not the case, there are some words exchanged. Yudhiṣṭhira took great issue with arjun leaving bhīma in the battle field. Some very harsh words are spoken by yudhiṣṭhira to arjun. So much so that yudhiṣṭhira says to arjun to give away his bow ( gandiva) to another more deserving; this is a very serious charge and offence as seen by arjun; add insult to injury yudhiṣṭhira says it would have been better if you , arjun, were never born!

Well that sets the stage for the following. Arjun is filled with rage and draws his sword. Kṛṣṇa-ji tries to calm arjun down. Arjun , breathing like an angry snake casts his eyes towards yudhiṣṭhira and tells kṛṣṇaI would cut off the head of that man who would tell me to give-up my gandiva to another person, this is my secret vow. Slaying this best of men ( his brother, king yudhiṣṭhira), I will keep my vow.

Arjun then asks kṛṣṇa what is suitable to do. Kṛṣṇa in short says this action is not best, worthy of merit and he ( arjun) is functioning out of ignorance. Kṛṣṇa takes the time to talk of dharma, what is proper and improper actions ( you can read this section as you see fit); yet in the end He tells arjun to do as he sees fit.

Arjun sees the wrong of his ways and asks kṛṣṇa what can I do now so I keep my word, yet save killing my brother ? Kṛṣṇa offers this advice - As long as one that is deserving of respect continues to receive respect, one is said to live in the world of men. However, such a person meets with disrespect, he is spoken of as one that is dead though alive.

Kṛṣṇa suggests, this king has always been respected by you arjun , so show him disrespect. Address yudhiṣṭhira as 'thou' when the proper address is 'your honor.' By being addressed as 'thou,' he is killed though not deprived of life. Without being deprived of life a superior is yet said to be killed if that venerable one is addressed as 'thou.' Having addressed him in this way, then you may then worship his feet and speak words of respect unto him and soothe his wounded honor. Your brother is wise and will never be angry with you.

Then arjun vehemently addressed king yudhiṣṭhira in language that was harsh and the like of which he had never used before. ( Much more then just one word of 'thou' - please read the story to find out).

Now grief comes to arjun for these words used to his most noble brother. Upon saying these bitter words he draws his sword as he was shaken by the words used and the sin he commited. He now plans to end his own life. Kṛṣṇa says this action is not approved by the rightious - By destroying one's self, you would sink into a more terrible hell than if had slain your brother.

So , now what can arjun do ? Kṛṣṇa-ji offers the path to arjun... that of self-praise, of self- merit (being a braggart). Kṛṣṇa says to arjun declare now, in words, your own merit. Then you should have then slain your own own self.

Arjun says to Kṛṣṇa-ji let it be so and begins to tell yudhiṣṭhira how great he is:

there is no other bowman like unto myself, except the deity that bears Pinaka; I am regarded by even that illustrious deity.
In a moment I can destroy this universe of mobile and immobile creatures.
It was I, O king, that vanquished all the points of the compass with all the kings ruling there,
and brought all to thy subjection.
No one can vanquish a person like me in battle.
I alone have slain half of the entire (hostile) army.
I slay those with (high) weapons that are conversant with high weapons.
For this reason I do not reduce the three worlds to ashes.
etc.So how does this relate to us ? Every day many of us show little respect to our elders -
greeting them and treating them as equals and even scolding them or arguing with them in a condesending manner.
And every day most of us look to our own selves and boast, give self praise. In both cases we are killing and executing suicide even without one body falling to the ground.

praṇām

references
Section 65 is LXV in Roman numbers for those that have the mahābhārata by Kisari Mohan Ganguli ; you can find the story here http://www.mahabharataonline.com/translation/mahabharata_08068.php (http://www.mahabharataonline.com/translation/mahabharata_08068.php) as it begins with section 68.

R Gitananda
23 November 2011, 12:28 PM
namaste

Thank you for sharing your wisdom on the Mahabharata. I think that Sri Krishna's words
in this context were specifically for a kshatriya like Arjuna and anyone else who desires
merit and ascension to heaven. However shastra is replete with examples of sadhakas
who treat everyone of all levels the same and IMO this is superior to the meritorious
way described in the text. This approach also has several supporting slokas in the Bhagavad
Gita (apart from the worship and reverence it advises to be offered towards the guru).
IMO, one who feels that he has been killed because he has not been offered the
proper homage (or being outright disrespected) has a warrior's spirit.

Aum Shanti



hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté

There are some other HDF posts as of late that are discussing killing and suicide. It is said we do this every day. How can this be ? It is told to us as a story within the mahābhārata, and the battle of kurukṣetra.

The story that appears in the mahābhārata, karṇa parvan, offering the notion of killing and suicide begins in section 65¹. Let me set the stage from a maco point of view so one can appreciate the condition : Ajun is contemplating killing his brother yudhiṣṭhira and then killing himself, suicide no less. How does this occur ?

We find yudhiṣṭhira sorely wounded 'with his limbs scorched from the shafts of karṇa' and returns to his camp. Arjun and bhīma talk and arjun requests bhīma to return to his eldest brothers' side to see how he is doing. Bhīma suggests it would be best if he himself goes and checks up on yudhiṣṭhira , so arjun and kṛṣṇa-ji head back to camp.

Well, when yudhiṣṭhira sees arjun he surmises that that arjun must have slayed karṇa. When arjun tells the king that this was not the case, there are some words exchanged. Yudhiṣṭhira took great issue with arjun leaving bhīma in the battle field. Some very harsh words are spoken by yudhiṣṭhira to arjun. So much so that yudhiṣṭhira says to arjun to give away his bow ( gandiva) to another more deserving; this is a very serious charge and offence as seen by arjun; add insult to injury yudhiṣṭhira says it would have been better if you , arjun, were never born!

Well that sets the stage for the following. Arjun is filled with rage and draws his sword. Kṛṣṇa-ji tries to calm arjun down. Arjun , breathing like an angry snake casts his eyes towards yudhiṣṭhira and tells kṛṣṇaI would cut off the head of that man who would tell me to give-up my gandiva to another person, this is my secret vow. Slaying this best of men ( his brother, king yudhiṣṭhira), I will keep my vow.

Arjun then asks kṛṣṇa what is suitable to do. Kṛṣṇa in short says this action is not best, worthy of merit and he ( arjun) is functioning out of ignorance. Kṛṣṇa takes the time to talk of dharma, what is proper and improper actions ( you can read this section as you see fit); yet in the end He tells arjun to do as he sees fit.

Arjun sees the wrong of his ways and asks kṛṣṇa what can I do now so I keep my word, yet save killing my brother ? Kṛṣṇa offers this advice - As long as one that is deserving of respect continues to receive respect, one is said to live in the world of men. However, such a person meets with disrespect, he is spoken of as one that is dead though alive.

Kṛṣṇa suggests, this king has always been respected by you arjun , so show him disrespect. Address yudhiṣṭhira as 'thou' when the proper address is 'your honor.' By being addressed as 'thou,' he is killed though not deprived of life. Without being deprived of life a superior is yet said to be killed if that venerable one is addressed as 'thou.' Having addressed him in this way, then you may then worship his feet and speak words of respect unto him and soothe his wounded honor. Your brother is wise and will never be angry with you.

Then arjun vehemently addressed king yudhiṣṭhira in language that was harsh and the like of which he had never used before. ( Much more then just one word of 'thou' - please read the story to find out).

Now grief comes to arjun for these words used to his most noble brother. Upon saying these bitter words he draws his sword as he was shaken by the words used and the sin he commited. He now plans to end his own life. Kṛṣṇa says this action is not approved by the rightious - By destroying one's self, you would sink into a more terrible hell
than if had slain your brother.

So , now what can arjun do ? Kṛṣṇa-ji offers the path to arjun... that of self-praise, of self- merit (being a braggart). Kṛṣṇa says to arjun declare now, in words, your own merit. Then you should have then slain your own own self.

Arjun says to Kṛṣṇa-ji let it be so and begins to tell yudhiṣṭhira how great he is:

there is no other bowman like unto myself, except the deity that bears Pinaka; I am regarded by even that illustrious deity.
In a moment I can destroy this universe of mobile and immobile creatures.
It was I, O king, that vanquished all the points of the compass with all the kings ruling there,
and brought all to thy subjection.
No one can vanquish a person like me in battle.
I alone have slain half of the entire (hostile) army.
I slay those with (high) weapons that are conversant with high weapons.
For this reason I do not reduce the three worlds to ashes.
etc.So how does this relate to us ? Every day many of us show little respect to our elders -
greeting them and treating them as equals and even scolding them or arguing with them in a condesending manner.
And every day most of us look to our own selves and boast, give self praise. In both cases we are killing and executing suicide even without one body falling to the ground.

praṇām

references
Section 65 is LXV in Roman numbers for those that have the mahābhārata by Kisari Mohan Ganguli ; you can find the story here http://www.mahabharataonline.com/translation/mahabharata_08068.php (http://www.mahabharataonline.com/translation/mahabharata_08068.php) as it begins with section 68.

yajvan
23 November 2011, 02:29 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté R Gitananda


namaste
IMO, one who feels that he has been killed because he has not been offered the proper homage (or being outright disrespected) has a warrior's spirit. Aum Shanti

Yes, I can see your point. I think there is another valuable lesson that is offered in post 46 above. It is not opposed to, but a different level or layer of wisdom that hides within the principles offered.


The principles that are taught in the story above is that of respect for elders, and also that of humility in one's self. Yet we find in the upaniṣads ( in this case the īśavāsyopaniṣad); the notion of ātmahano janāḥ i.e. the person or creature ( janāḥ ) that is the killer (hano) of the Self or ātman.
Not knowing one's Self (ātman) and living in ignorance is equal to one that has killed one's self. This is applied when arjun's praise on his own individual-self. Not knowing his SELF (ātman) he gives his ego praise that over-shadows the SELF (ātman) as if killing it, not knowing it even exists. Hence the Self-killing, is suicide as mentioned in post 46 without one body hitting the ground.

This also applies to one's elders. We can say the ancient one ( puruṣa ) resides within our elders. When we treat them as less then equal we have (as if) killed the SELF in them. We have avoided recogniton of thier eternal status - there is the killing via dis-repspect.

These are the notions I pick up from the lesson in the mahābhārata. Perhaps you wish to add more, or offer another point of view.


praṇām

anisha_astrologer
24 November 2011, 01:06 AM
one point that i see goes missing here is the concept of Dharma in Mahabharat. yuddhishthira had a different notion of Dharma while his brothers and Draupadi had different notion of Dharma. Throughout the epic the concept of Dharma is explored and an attampt to reconcile the different notions of Dharma is finally abandoned or remains unresolved in the end.:):)

yajvan
24 November 2011, 01:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté

one point that i see goes missing here is the concept of Dharma in Mahabharat. yuddhishthira had a different notion of Dharma while his brothers and Draupadi had different notion of Dharma. Throughout the epic the concept of Dharma is explored and an attampt to reconcile the different notions of Dharma is finally abandoned or remains unresolved in the end.:):)
The śrīmad bhāgavatam ( some prefer to call bhāgavata purāṇa) Book 6, 3rd discourse, the 20th śloka informs us , as yama-ji is talking, there are 12 alone that know the essence of dharma. They are brahmā, the sage nārada, lord śiva Himself, the sage sanatkumāra, lord kapila, svāyambhuva manu, prahrāda, king bali, king janaka, bhīṣma, the sage śuka and myself (yama) know dharma that is taught by the Lord - secret, pure, and difficult to understand.

Now it is interesting to note that kṛṣṇa-ji advises yudhiṣṭhira to go to bhīṣma's side ( as he lies on a bed of arrows) and have all his questions answered on dharma. Hence a very long dialog comences between him and yudhiṣṭhira. The wisest of information is offered... even the viṣṇu sahasranām - 1000 names of viṣṇu is offered here.

Now one may think how will I ever know this dharma ? We can study and practice it the best we can, but we can also live it to its fullest and most complete merit. That is, a fully realized being lives this natural state of dharma all day-and-night. It does not have to come from a book but from the complete absorbtion in the Self; then one does no wrong and uplifts the world with each and every breadth.

praṇām

arunadasi
30 December 2011, 07:58 AM
I do hope that this post is favourably received; I realise I have not been an active member of the forum but I have been a lurker for some time and a poster for a short while.
I have a blog running based on the Mahabharata and the questions and themes arising out of this great book; the blog is at www.sonsofgods.blogspot.com. I have also written a new version of the Mahabharata, a work that took me 30 years. writing on and off! I do hope some of you will check it out. I can maybe arrange for free copies; at some point there will be a giveaway and I would love you to participate.
Thanks for reading!

yajvan
05 April 2012, 03:52 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast


In the final days of the pāṇḍava's , they headed on their final journey. During this travel a dog accomplanies them. He continues as each of the pāṇḍava fell to earth, dead. Yet yudhiṣṭhira and the dog continued the journey.

We find that the dog happens to be dharma personified. Something I find interesting, why did veda vyāsa use a dog to symbolize dharma ? If I were writing this epic I would have suggested an elephant or a white bull, but why a dog?



praṇām

charitra
05 April 2012, 07:12 PM
[/quote]

If I were writing this epic I would have suggested an elephant or a white bull, but why a dog?

Vedic sages were promoting the canine as the man's most trusted friend. The noticed that somehow dog was not accompanying any devata in puranas, whilst even a mouse gets to sit alongside Ganesha, so they corrected the the injustice meted out to the four legged gentile. Today dog is the commonest pet animal on planet earth. Lets remember those ancient sages were much wiser and more animal friendly than any of us living now on this planet

Sahasranama
05 April 2012, 07:37 PM
We find that the dog happens to be dharma personified. Something I find interesting, why did veda vyāsa use a dog to symbolize dharma ? If I were writing this epic I would have suggested an elephant or a white bull, but why a dog?



This is to test Yuddhistira's adherence to righteousness, the dog has been loyal to him all the way. Now when he standing at the gate of heaven, will he recognise the dog's loyalty or will he abandon the dog, because he is considered impure. This is the test of Yuddhistira's character.

yajvan
05 April 2012, 07:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


This is to test Yuddhistira's adherence to rightiousness, the dog has been loyal to him all the way. Now when he standing at the gate of heaven, will he recognise the dog's loyalty or will he abandon the dog, because he is considered impure. This is the test of Yuddhistira's character.
Yes, you are correct and yudhiṣṭhira did not abandon the dog.


charitra writes,


Vedic sages were promoting the canine as the man's most trusted friend. The noticed that somehow dog was not accompanying any devata in puranas, whilst even a mouse gets to sit alongside Ganesha, so they corrected the the injustice meted out to the four legged gentile. Today dog is the commonest pet animal on planet earth. Lets remember those ancient sages were much wiser and more animal friendly than any of us living now on this planet

This could be, yet I it is rare to never ( in india) that dogs are allowed in the home, yet we welcome cows as we find them throughout the veda-s.
I think there is something more to dogs then meets the eye. 'Dog' as man's best friend ( I believe ) is relevatively new ( in hundreds of years vs. thousands).

praṇām

Sahasranama
05 April 2012, 07:57 PM
It is important to note that Vyasa is not merely picking random symbols. He has to adhere his poem to the events that have occured (itihasa). It is very unlikely that an elephant would have followed Yuddhistira everywhere, but it is not hard to imagine that a dog would have followed him. Dogs have always been considered loyal, we can find dogs as well in the depiction of Dattatreya. The ancient Greeks also described the loyalty of dogs, in the Oddyssey the story is told how Oddysseus' dog recognises him after 20 years of absence.

There is a video online of a dog reuniting with an army soldier. http://www.killsometime.com/videos/8363/Dog-Reunites-With-Army-Soldier

Believer
05 April 2012, 08:07 PM
Namaste,

If memory serves me right - it has become feeble of late - the Pandavas were walking in the Himalayas during their final journey. Don't know if an elephant or a bull would follow anyone walking on the trails of the ever ascending mountains of Himalayas.

Pranam.

Sahasranama
05 April 2012, 08:24 PM
If memory serves me right - it has become feeble of late - the Pandavas were walking in the Himalayas during their final journey. Don't know if an elephant or a bull would follow anyone walking on the trails of the ever ascending mountains of Himalayas.

Yes, that would be very unrealistic.

Mana
05 April 2012, 11:56 PM
Namaste, All

If I might add a few words.

To my mind the domestication of wild animals, animal husbandry, has been of considerable impact upon the human condition, our very direction and path through kali yuga has been aided and affected greatly by this.
Our very traditions are born from it.

The thought occurs that Cows bulls nor elephants are never tamed, Cows are fully domesticated in that we have total adopted them we help with their birth, right through till their death they graciously give of their milk with no complaint, the Bull is brought to submission via the ring though his nose; an elephant is never domesticated, with great difficulty do they reproduce in captivity, yet still they chose to assist us, this is more an mutual agreement, heavily weighted (by their heavy weight ;) ) to their disposition, it is their choice rather than our mastery over them.

Dogs, as pack animals behave very much like humans, under certain conditions. It is interesting to note that a well trained dog an its master can communicate with even the slightest body language.

Dogs understand little yet we perceive them as intelligent, why this? Maybe it is their connection to our feelings which give this impression. There is in fact an eagerness to please, unless they have the higher ground, by dominating they might feel that they are "Alpha" in which case you would have an animal that bites barks and misbehaves.

Who, and with what, trains these animals?

Jared Diamond wisely states in his fantastic book Guns, Germs, and Steel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel)

That "... if any human tribe had succeeded in taming the rhino; they would have conquered all of Eurasia ..." (Please forgive me any mistake, I am quoting from memory).

A most timely and thought provoking thread, thank you ...

I should one day like to read the Mahabharata to soak in its wisdom.

praNAma

mana

yajvan
03 June 2012, 06:53 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namasté


In post number 7 ,32 & 41 above I offered my view on why 18 is a significant number in the mahābhārata i.e. 18 chapters, 18 days of fighting, etc.
Let me extend this idea just a bit more: What of this 18 ? I still continue to think of this and what vyāsa-ji (kṛṣṇa dvaipāyana) wishes to tell us.

Within the mahābhārata he informs us:
Whatever is here ( in the mahābhārata) is found elsewhere. But whatever is not here (in the mahābhārata) is nowhere else."

This again stimulated some thought. It suggests the mahābhārata must then be complete and full knowledge. It then must cover the full range of knowledge.
Within sanātana dharma we recognize 14 branches of learning (catur-daśa vidya); if we add-in the foundational 4 veda-s we come to this number 18 once more.

Hence it just could be that vyāsa-ji is informing and reminding us just how splendid and full this mahābhārata is by using this 18 again and again; even nārada has called it the 5th veda i.e. itihāsapurāṇaṃ pañcamaṃ vedānāṃ ( see post 32)

4 veda-s
6 vedāṅga
4 upaveda
4 upāṅga
18

4 veda-s ( considered śruti , revelation , cognized by the acient ṛṣi-s within the field of pure consciousness. It was considered 'heard' (śruti) and not composed or authored by men)

ṛg-veda
sāma-veda
yajur-veda(These 3 used to be considered trayam brahma sanātanam or the triple eternal veda )

atharva-veda 6 vedāṅga-s 'limbs of the veda'

śikṣā or phonetics
kalpa or ritual
vyākarṇa or grammar
nirukta or etmology
chandas or meter
jyotiṣh astronomy and astrology4 upaveda-s 'secondary or applied knowledge'

āyur-veda , or science of life, longivity i.e. medicine
dhanurveda or science of archery
gāndharva-veda or science of music
śastra-śāstra or science of arms or militarySome suggest sthāpatya-veda or science of architecture , and śilpa-śāstra or knowledge of arts , are the fourth upa-veda

4 upāṅga-s ( some spell upāṃga ) 'supplementary or additional work ; a limb (aṅga)'

purāṇa-s
nyāya
mīmāṃsā
dharma-śāstra-sSome call out the purāṇa-s as itihāsa-purāṇa-s to include the mahābhārata & rāmāyaṇa

praṇām

Shuddhasattva
03 June 2012, 07:13 PM
We find that the dog happens to be dharma personified. Something I find interesting, why did veda vyāsa use a dog to symbolize dharma ? If I were writing this epic I would have suggested an elephant or a white bull, but why a dog?


Namaste

Are not dogs associated with Yama as his messengers and representatives in the Vedas?

yajvan
03 June 2012, 11:52 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
 
namast�


Namaste
Are not dogs associated with Yama as his messengers and representatives in the Vedas?
yama is called out as having 2 dogs in the ṛg ved, 10th mandala, 14th hymn. Offspring of saramā¹ .

Perhaps we can see the connection ? There is no doubt that yama and niyama can be connected with dharma; Yet why one dog and not two ?

praṇām

1. saramā - mother of the four-eyed brindled dogs of yama