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atanu
21 August 2007, 01:07 PM
While Christianity is considered basically a dualistic religion, a few passages from the Bible can be interpreted non-dualistically. I cite a few such passages below:

Exodus 3:

13: Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14: God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
15: God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Non-dualistically, the name of God is "I AM". This is easily identified with what we call pure Awareness, I Am, or the Absolute. Furthermore, because God is I Am, It is inward. However, since God is not an object, It cannot be located anywhere within. (Inward is the direction away from all objects, not a location.

Now, a familiar passage from Psalms 46:

10: "Be still, and know that I am God. I am exalted among the nations, I am exalted in the earth!"

and some passages from John 14:

6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
7: If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."

Non-dualistically, pure Awareness, (I Am), is the means and the end (the way and the truth). If you know your true nature as pure Awareness, you also know the Absolute (unmanifest Consciousness, the Father).

8: Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.”
9: Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10: Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
-----
16: And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
17: Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.
The other Counselor, or Holy Spirit, is spiritual intuition which few know (it cannot be seen with the world’s eyes), but it can be known by all who want to. (Spiritual intuition, not blind belief, is the true meaning of faith.)

26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
27: Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
Your own spiritual intuition (faith) will bring you to Reality and peace.

Now, three passages from John 8:

57: The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
59: So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Jesus tells them that his true identity has always been I Am (as it is for everyone). This assertion incited an all-too common reaction among those who fear having their beliefs challenged. Jesus’ identification with pure Consciousness and the reaction of those who were afraid to question what they had been taught is reinforced in the following passages from John 10:

30: I and the Father are one."
31: The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32: Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"
33: The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, you are gods'?
35: If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
36: do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?
37: If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
38: but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
39: Again they tried to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Om

saidevo
22 August 2007, 02:41 AM
Namaste Atanu ji.

Now that is a surprise from you! A true Advaitin that you are, I understand your sincere and sympathetic search for the same Advaitic Truth in the Bible as you find in the Hindu scriptures.

How beautiful and harmonious will the world be if the Christian missionaries admit these pointers, realize that Truth is One with many names and paths to it, and work for their peaceful co-existence with the other faiths, specially Hinduism, which to them is the most paganish of all the existing faiths!

With due respects to you Atanu, I would like to post my views on the subject of this thread. I shall for now only give a general view and wait for others to give their opinions on the specific passages you have quoted.

The Christian Bible, comprising the books and gospels in the Old and New Testaments, seems to me prima facie, to be a hotchpotch of stories, history, mythology, theology, dogma and contradictions. Whatever way one might interpretet it, the Bible in my view, cannot hold a candle to the plain-spoken, point-blank, unambiguous and loftiest truths proclaimed in the Upanishads and Vedas.

Hindu scriptures are neatly classified into Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Itihasas, Agamas and other works with layers of progressive worldliness projected over an Ultimate, Absolute Truth. Hindu Dharma is also neatly classified into four pursuits: dharma, arta, kama, moksha. In the absence of such clarity of thought, philosophy and arrangement, the Bible or the Quran or any other religious scripture for that matter in my view can only be wishfully--not justtifiably--thought to proclaim the same Truth in the same clear manner.

Scriptures are written/composed to suit the people of the country at their present level of spiritual advancement. Yet the truths proclaimed are not diluted in the scriptures. When Sri Krishna spoke Bhagavad Gita for Arjuna specially and for the whole mankind at all spiritual levels, he did not mince or mellow his words which were pointers to the Absolute Truth. Adi Shankara adored the Bhakti Yoga path, yet kept his Advaitic philosophy separate at the top rung of the ladder of spirituality.

Scriptures are written by people who performed intense Tapas over long years and got their Self-Realization, like the Rishis who discovered the Vedas and reduced them into words. Everyone knows pretty well how the Bible was compiled and how the controversies of inclusion and exclusion of books and gospels still rage among the Christian scholars. There are differences of opinions as to the passages included in the Bible that were actually spoken/taught by Jesus (assuming that he was a historical avatar of God).

There is one more important point to consider, in my view: The God of the Bible says "I AM WHO I AM", and not "THAT THOU ART" or "THOU ART ME". Jesus says, "I am in the Father and the Father in me" but not "THE FATHER IS ALSO IN YOU". Right from Jesus down to the priest in the church, the Christian-sanctioned view is that only the Christian clergy are holy godmen and that God comes to them in the form of Father/Son/Holy Ghost. If the Christian public themselves are exempted from this divine privilege, what to speak of their sanction for the pagans?

As against this view, Hinduism exhorts us to light a lamp during the Karthikai festival for the welfare and spiritual progress of all beings:

kITaH patangA macakAcha vRkSAH jale sthale ye
nivasanti jIvaH dRSTvA pradIpam naca janma pAjA
bhavanti nityam chvapaca havibraH

(This verse is from the Dharma Shastra, quoted in a Tamil book. Since I have transliterated from Tamil the Sanskrit words may not be accurate. Members may please provide the correct transliteration).

"Let it be a worm, or a flying bird or a mosquito or a tree thought to have a lesser form of life than us, or whatever numbers of living being on the earth or in the water, or any man without any distinction in caste or creed--if that being even once has darshan of this light of the lamp, may all its sins be gone and may the being get a better life in its next birth."

Advaita as may be interpreted in the Christian scriptures is at best only NON-DUALITY between man and God, not the Advaita of universal oneness of life and consciousness.

atanu
22 August 2007, 01:25 PM
Namaste Atanu ji.

----Advaita as may be interpreted in the Christian scriptures is at best only NON-DUALITY between man and God, not the Advaita of universal oneness of life and consciousness.

Namaste saidevoji,

You are always welcome in any post. It is honour if you add to a post intiated by this.

I think you have raised a valid point, still I will look forward to ZN, MG, and sarabhanga ji. But from what has been already posted, I will highlight the following two pieces.


1. Psalms 46:

10: "Be still, and know that I am God. I am exalted among the nations, I am exalted in the earth!"

2. John 10:

30: I and the Father are one." (note: this I is the universal I)
31: The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32: Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"
33: The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, you are gods'?

----------------------------
"Be still, and know that I am God. " was a favourite upadesa of Ramana Maharshi.
The problem is that Ramana and Jesus could remain in Mauna, and so had the basis for a statement that My Father and I are same.

For me and for most, who are far from mauna such a statement will have no truth. In such case, the statement "Antaryami within this is That" will be more apt.

Let us invite ZN, MG, and sarabhanga ji to add more.

Regards.

Om Namah Shivaya

sarabhanga
23 August 2007, 04:00 AM
Atanu has pointed out some advaitic fragments that yet survive in the Bible, highlighting the kinship of Advaita and the original message attributed to Ishu, and noting that today’s Christianity is largely dualistic in outlook.

Christianity is not Christ, but it is supposed to be the path that Jesus himself followed. If misguided followers have departed from the true path of their Guru, that does not have any bearing on the path of Christ himself, which is true Christianity.

Jesus experienced Samadhi and had knowledge of Advaita; but his devoted followers have (generally) not experienced Samadhi and only know Dvaita.

The dark controller is Krishna ~ and He is the mysterious Turiya ~ and He is the Kashyapa (Lord of the reins or rays).

For all Hindus, the Kashyapa is Brahman.
For Sauras, that Kashyapa is Surya.
For Shaivas, that Kashyapa is Rudra Shiva.
For Vaishnavas, that Kashyapa is Krishna.
For Jainas, that Kashyapa is Neminatha.
For Bauddhas, that Kashyapa is Gautama.
For Jews, that Kashyapa is Yaweh or Jehovah.
For Christians, that Kashyapa is Christ.
For Muslims, that Kashyapa is Allah.
For Pagans, that Kashyapa is Pan.

Jews, Muslims, and Protestant Christians, however, are strict about the unimaginability of absolute God-head (i.e. Advaita, the One Beyond).

And Jews have never accepted the Christian idea of all darkness being absolutely separated from all light, and they understand that God’s beard is variegated with dark rays and light rays emerging from the one face of the one God who can never be divided in truth.

“Behold the Man whose name is the Branch” ~ and behold the Rudra whose name is Sthanu !

The “Passion of Christ Jesus” is simply derived from the tapas kRSTeSu, and the kRSTayas have long praised agni (and thus also the rudra sthANu) as rAjA kRSTInAm.

And when it is also understood that Judas and Jesus are one and the same, the Christian story makes a lot more sense!

The Gita was surely composed in India some centuries before its fame spread to the Middle East and there inspired the kRSTayas (farmers, cultivators, or merely inhabitants of the land) to rise against the prevailing religious authorities and eventually to the establishment of their “new” doctrine as a supposedly independent religion.

In order to maintain their presumed authority, Christianity has been compelled to paint Lord Krishna as the exact image of its own Satan, as the devilish truth that should never be seen by faithful Christians, lest they realize that Jesus Christ was just one of an endless succession of Hindu Saints and that the Bible was compiled and derived from the far greater corpus of Sanskrit literature and age-old Hindu traditions.

All Christians would agree that Adam and Noah and Abrahm and Moses and John (the Baptist) and Jesus and John (the Apostle), all attained first-hand knowledge of God by direct experience. Indeed, all of the Prophets and Saints (by definition) must possess such divine Knowledge.

The Mandaeans (also Sabaeans or Nasoraeans) are Gnostics who lived long before Jesus Christ and still exist today (mainly in Iraq and Iran). The Mandae consider both Moses and Jesus as heretics, whose innovations led to the establishment of Judaism and Christianity as distinct religions. The Mandae (Sabae, Nasorae) are followers of John the (Gnostic) Baptist, as was Jesus himself before his own Samadhi (when his Gnosis was finally confirmed).

Moses was surely Gnostic ~ eyeh asher eyeh ~ and so too was John ~ ego eimi ho on.

I am that ‘I am’.

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

The Logos and its Gnosis are the neglected twin of Protestant “Christianity”.

The Turya (4th) Gospel was composed by John, and remember that John is the name of Jesus Christ’s own Guru.

John = Jove = Jupiter = Guru

From Jove we have Jew and Jehovah or YhVh.

Yh and Vh are equivalent with Ya and Ma.

Ma-Ya is the reflexion of Ya-Ma; and Ya-Va is the reflexion of Va-Ya (cf. Vayu).

The Guru of Maya is Yama, and vice versa. And the Guru of Vayu is Yuva (cf. Yuhvah or Jehovah), and vice versa.

The unseen God of the Abrahamic religions is most nearly equated with the Air itself, and Its existence is only revealed by the Wind.

The Trinity comprises the Father (Purusha or Brahma), the Son (Narayana or Vishnu), and the Holy Spirit (Shiva, i.e. Grace).

The Father remains unseen, but the Son is His manifest incarnation, and the Holy Spirit is the active ingredient (Shakti) that powers this transformation (in both directions).

Creation began with this moving Spirit or Wind on the Waters, and the same Holy Ghost entered into Mary to create Jesus.

Christians should remember that their Guru was but one in an endless succession of true Gurus and Avataras ~ as did the orthodox Syrian Fathers, at Nicea, when they voted AGAINST the proposition that Jesus was a God and not just a truly inspired human Guru.

The original scenario was:

1. Turya = Tetragrammaton
2. Guru = Jesus
3. Shishya = Judas

Subsequently elaborated as:

1. Deva = Jehovah
2. Rishi = Jesus
3. Acharya = Pontiff
4. Guru = Priest
5. Shishya = Man

And later reduced by the Protestant Reformation in 16th century Europe to:

1. Deva = Jesus
2. Guru = Bible
3. Shishya = Man

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि ~ aham brahma asmi ~ Yajus

εγω ειμι ό ων ~ ego eimi ho on ~ Exodus

I am that eternal Being ~ I am that Brahman

ahaM = I am = ego = I am = asmi = I am = eimi = I am = brahma = supreme Being = ho on = that Being = 'o on = aum

ahaM brahma asmi = I am [that] Brahman I am = ego eimi ho on = I am that Being I am

ahaM is Jivatman; and asmi is Paramatman.

ahaM brahmAsmi = I am ‘I am Brahman’ = I am ‘I am Being’ = I am ‘I be’ = I am ‘I exist’ = I am ‘I am’ = I truly AM!

I am the very essence of ‘I am’ = I am Existence, itself = I am (I am) Brahman.

eyeh asher eyeh!

Most translations of the Christian Turya Gospel render “I am I” in the sayings of Jesus simply as “I am”.

Hinduism does indeed have the whole Truth, but we should not deny that there is some truth remaining in the Judeo-Christian heritage. And would it not be more useful to emphasize those truths rather than merely dismissing and belittling the entire Bible and all of Christianity?

Also note that Ajativada, the ultimate Advaita, considers the whole of Creation as Avidya ~ misconstrued as “wickedness”.

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (John 5:19) ~ once more confirming the original Christian understanding of Advaita in the Turya Gospel!

atanu
23 August 2007, 11:44 AM
-----Also note that Ajativada, the ultimate Advaita, considers the whole of Creation as Avidya ~ misconstrued as “wickedness”.

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (John 5:19) ~ once more confirming the original Christian understanding of Advaita in the Turya Gospel!

Namaste All,

As above, I find a major fundamental difference between Advaita and all others dualistc thoughts. There is no evil or devil in Avaita only Vidya and Avidya, which are vidyaAvidya in Brahman.

Om

atanu
15 September 2007, 02:59 PM
But wait.

Matthew 18:20:

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."


Om