Is devotion immaterial?

[suresh]

Dear Friends,

I am not able to understand the significance of devotion in spiritual practice. Truth is, we need to realize our oneness with Brahman, so what's the point in propitiating the gods? Gaudiya, dvaita, and other dualistic systems stress the worship of God, to know his qualities, and so forth.

I find this irrelevant and confusing, because why would I care if Krishna or Rama has infinite auspicious qualities? That's obviously not helping my cause a bit! Worshipping Krishna or Rama isn't gonna bring me any closer to enlightenment, so why bother?

Is it then reasonable to conclude that devotion is useless beyond a certain point, and a more atheistic approach would help?

Suresh

[Madhavan]

Dear Friends,

I am not able to understand the significance of devotion in spiritual practice. Truth is, we need to realize our oneness with Brahman, so what's the point in propitiating the gods? Gaudiya, dvaita, and other dualistic systems stress the worship of God, to know his qualities, and so forth.

I find this irrelevant and confusing, because why would I care if Krishna or Rama has infinite auspicious qualities? That's obviously not helping my cause a bit! Worshipping Krishna or Rama isn't gonna bring me any closer to enlightenment, so why bother?


By worship, you mean the "external worship"? If so, then yes it is useful only upto a certain point - for purifying the mind. On the other hand if you meant by worship of God, meditation on his forms and symbols such as OM, then this can be used a direct means for the final realization. God with qualities and the one without it are one and the same God. The qualities persists as long the seer in you exists. Most people cannot comprehend the formless Brahman, so devotional meditation is sine qua non for most people.



Is it then reasonable to conclude that devotion is useless beyond a certain point, and a more atheistic approach would help?

Suresh

Define the term 'devotion' please. True devotion exists only when the entity you worship is actually known, else it is blind faith. At the pinnacle of devotion, one's identity ceases to be different from the worshipped. Hinduism does not advocate atheistic approach. That is where it differs from Buddhism.

[saidevo]

Namaste Suresh.

Your question has its own answer: Yes, devotion is immaterial, because it is spiritual. For this same reason it is material, that is, it matters a lot, specially in this Kali Yuga, for spiritual progress of the common person.

Devotion is not just the external paraphernalia we notice in its rituals. The paraphernalia is only an aid to the refinement of the mind to communicate with the one God through the deity. Devotion as a common denominator fosters the dharma of human relationships.

Devotion is the hallmark of Kali Yuga! 'A strong mind in a strong body' as the saying goes, but in this Kali Yuga people have only weak bodies and weaker minds, so devotion serves as a panacea for the material ills of the age. Not everyone has the strong mind to sit in meditation to personally realize the Self, but even in yoga and meditation it is only upAsana (worship) until one is able to reach the Turiya and Samadhi stage.

Is there any guru of Advaita in this age of Kali who does not stress the need for devotion in the ladder up to Self-Realization?

Devotion as found in the bhakti path which is by far the most followed path today is not just a man-made development but is a recommended practice for Kali Yuga. Here is a quote that shows the spiritual trends in the four yugas (emphasis mine):



In this work (the Mahabharata) the four ages are described at length by Hanumat, the learned monkey chief, and from that description the following account has been abridged:-

The Krita (Satya) is the age in which righteousness (dharma) is eternal, when duties did not languish nor people decline. No efforts were made by men, the fruit of the earth was obtained by their mere wish. There was no malice, weeping, pride, or deceit; no contention, no hatred, cruelty, fear, affliction, jealousy, or envy. The castes alike in their functions fulfilled their duties, were unceasingly devoted to one deity, and used one formula, one rule, and one rite. Though they had separate duties, they had but one Veda and practised one duty.

In the Treta Yuga sacrifice commenced, righteousness decreased by one-fourth; men adhered to truth, and were devoted to a righteousness dependent on ceremonies. Sacrifices prevailed with holy acts and a variety of rites. Men acted with an object in view, seeking after reward for their rites and their gifts, and were no longer disposed to austerities and to liberality from a simple feeling of duty.

In the Dwapara Yuga righteousness was diminished by a half. The Yeda became fourfold. Some men studied four Yedas, others three, others two, others one, and some none at all. Ceremonies were celebrated in a great variety of ways. From the decline of goodness only few men adhered to truth. When men had fallen away from goodness, many diseases, desires, and calamities, caused by destiny, assailed them, by which they were severely afflicted and driven to practise austerities. Others desiring heavenly bliss offered sacrifices. Thus men declined through unrighteousness.

In the Kali Yuga righteousness remained to the extent of one-fourth only. Practices enjoined by the Vedas, works of righteousness, and rites of sacrifice ceased. Calamities, diseases, fatigue, faults, such as anger, &c., distresses, hunger, and fear prevailed. As the ages revolve righteousness declines, and the people also decline. When they decay their motives grow weak, and the general decline frustrates their aims. Muir, i. 144.

In the Knta Yuga the duration of life was four thousand years, in the Treta three thousand, in the Dwapara two thou sand. In the Kali Yuga there is no fixed measure. Other pas sages of the Maharbharata indicate that the Krita Yuga was regarded as an age in which Brahmans alone existed, and that Kshatriyas only began to be born in the Treta.

Source: Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology and Religion, Geography, History, and Literature by John Dowson


The stream of consciousness that flows through in this universe at this age is sullied by stark materialism. Devotion acts as a filter to purify the mind of materialistic thoughts so it can trace its way to its root.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Suresh ji


Dear Friends,

I am not able to understand the significance of devotion in spiritual practice. Truth is, we need to realize our oneness with Brahman, so what's the point in propitiating the gods? Gaudiya, dvaita, and other dualistic systems stress the worship of God, to know his qualities, and so forth.

I find this irrelevant and confusing, because why would I care if Krishna or Rama has infinite auspicious qualities? That's obviously not helping my cause a bit! Worshipping Krishna or Rama isn't gonna bring me any closer to enlightenment, so why bother?

Is it then reasonable to conclude that devotion is useless beyond a certain point, and a more atheistic approach would help?

Suresh

For me bhakti is the most sublime method by which one can easily transcend the bhotic sansar, in that context it is not material but spiritual.
Great personalities,
Likes of Chetanya Mahaprabhu, Tulsidas, Mira Narsingh Mehta Surdas, kabir were all great Bhaktas, I know there are many more but these are the ones that have influenced me the most.

I for one has been brought up singing this bhajan very famous amongst Guajarati folks and it goes bhakti karta chute mara pran prabhuji e wu mangu re roughly translated as O lord let my life end doing your bhakti.

Lord Shree Krishna says in bg chapter 5

yat sankhyaih prapyate sthanam
tad yogair api gamyate
ekam sankhyam ca yogam ca
yah pasyati sa pasyati

Whatever goal a Samnyasi reaches, a Karma-yogi also reaches the same goal. One who sees the path of renunciation and the path of work as the same, really sees.(5.05)

Goswami Sukhdev was Brahm realised from birth who was later enchanted by shree Krishnas lila.
Four Kumaras are also Brahm realised yet they also glorify the lord what to speak of Narad muni, Hanuman, who can surpass this great bhakta. My hat off to all the advaita followers but for me bhakti is the path I choose.

Krishna promises na me bhakta pransayti
And he also says much more

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. 2.12


I am the origin of all. Everything emanates from Me. Understanding this, the wise ones worship Me with love and devotion. (10.08)

With their minds absorbed in Me, with their lives surrendered unto Me, always enlightening each other by talking about Me; they remain ever content and delighted. (10.09)

I give the knowledge, to those who are ever united with Me and lovingly adore Me, by which they come to Me. (10.10)

Out of compassion for them I, who dwell within their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of knowledge. (10.11)

Jai Shree Krishna

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

By worship, you mean the "external worship"?



True devotion exists only when the entity you worship is actually known, else it is blind faith. At the pinnacle of devotion, one's identity ceases to be different from the worshipped. Hinduism does not advocate atheistic approach. That is where it differs from Buddhism.

Namaste Madhavan,

very wise words... there is internal worship and this is the true principle of yajya. Externally we see agni, rice, flowers, yet internally, in consciousness, the same offering is going on if done correctly. This is the wisdom of the rishis

And - as you say when the entity you adore is known, that is when the maximum worship occurs. I could not agree more. Up to that point one is practicing for that day to arrive.


a very good post.

pranams,

[atanu]

Pranam Suresh ji
For me bhakti is the most sublime method by which one can easily transcend the bhotic sansar, in that context it is not material but spiritual.
Great personalities,
-------
Krishna promises na me bhakta pransayti
And he also says much more

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. 2.12

Out of compassion for them I, who dwell within their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of knowledge. (10.11)

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

Without bhakti jnana does not ripen. Maharshi Ramana says "Bhakti Jnana Mata". Shri Krishna says the same in 10.11 cited above.


With respect to the verse 2.12 "Never was there a time ------", cited above I will point out something, which you may consider or you may not. Yogis/sthitipragnyas abide in the moment and for them there is no time/kala. Saying that I will repeat that becoming yuktatma is possibly not possible without devotion. About this no two Hindu Guru differ.

Om

[Znanna]

Dear Friends,

I am not able to understand the significance of devotion in spiritual practice. Truth is, we need to realize our oneness with Brahman, so what's the point in propitiating the gods? Gaudiya, dvaita, and other dualistic systems stress the worship of God, to know his qualities, and so forth.

I find this irrelevant and confusing, because why would I care if Krishna or Rama has infinite auspicious qualities? That's obviously not helping my cause a bit! Worshipping Krishna or Rama isn't gonna bring me any closer to enlightenment, so why bother?

Is it then reasonable to conclude that devotion is useless beyond a certain point, and a more atheistic approach would help?

Suresh


Namaste,

To my way of thinking, surrender of ego is facilitated by devotion to Godz.

That would be particularly true when Godz manifest :)



ZN

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

Without bhakti jnana does not ripen. Maharshi Ramana says "Bhakti Jnana Mata". Shri Krishna says the same in 10.11 cited above.
Om

Namaste,

Yet there is an entry fee... that is purity of mind. This does not come by thinking ' I am of pure mind' but by cleaning house. JUst a one does not become a king by thinking ' I am king' - and has little wealth and no kingdom.

Establishing the SELF, 7x24x365. This is the foundation for spiritual growth. Of this there is no doubt in my mind.


pranams,

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Atanu ji


Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

Without bhakti jnana does not ripen. Maharshi Ramana says "Bhakti Jnana Mata". Shri Krishna says the same in 10.11 cited above.


With respect to the verse 2.12 "Never was there a time ------", cited above I will point out something, which you may consider or you may not. Yogis/sthitipragnyas abide in the moment and for them there is no time/kala. Saying that I will repeat that becoming yuktatma is possibly not possible without devotion. About this no two Hindu Guru differ.

Om


I am always ready to consider what you have to say, even if I may not understand or agree with it.

I agree, one who understand the eternity for them time is of no consequence because time is a concept applied in this temporary world which has a beginning and an end.

Bhakti and jnana are two wheels necessarily on our spiritual journey, it does not matter to me if one thinks janana is ripen fruit of bhakti or the other way round.

Important thing is we do as Krishna says

na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva

Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. Having cut these firm roots of the Ashvattha tree by the mighty ax of (Jnana and) Vairaagya or detachment; (15.03)

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani

So doing, one must seek that place from which, having once gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Person from whom everything has began and in whom everything is abiding since time immemorial. (15.04)

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam yajvan


Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste,

Yet there is an entry fee... that is purity of mind. This does not come by thinking ' I am of pure mind' but by cleaning house. JUst a one does not become a king by thinking ' I am king' - and has little wealth and no kingdom.

Establishing the SELF, 7x24x365. This is the foundation for spiritual growth. Of this there is no doubt in my mind.


pranams,

i wish it was as simple as thinking and willing it, they say the path is like walking on double edge sword.
alas when will i be serious in my endeavour.

hey, we have to start from some where, desire is the key.

Jai Shree Krishna

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam yajvan

i wish it was as simple as thinking and willing it, they say the path is like walking on double edge sword.alas when will i be serious in my endeavour.
hey, we have to start from some where, desire is the key.

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaste G,
Yes what you say 'the edge' is from the Upanishads. And 'thinking' ones way to Kevalya will not work as it is a 3 guna activity , yes? Krsna says be without the 3 guna. Now what to? As we know this SELF is svatasiddha or self proved.

This is where techniques come in... to remove the thorn using a thorn.
This is the essence of the two other posts we have been discussion (wrestling perhaps is a better term?http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) i.e. Turiya and the 'do you care to discuss this ' posting.

IMHO this is why there are less enlightened on this planet... not that one does not deserve to be thus, but pursing a course of action that improves ones ability to achive this state of Being.

Being is quite happy being, well Being. We have to engage IT, vs. IT coming to look for us! So many methods all with good intent, yet we are aloft, aspiring for the Lord.

Its said, Success is born of sattva , it is not the means. I have been looking for this in the vedas for some time now as it originates from there.

It is a beautiful consideration if we wish to purse this further.

pranams,